Luminous Landscape Forum
The Art of Photography => The Coffee Corner => Topic started by: John Camp on February 25, 2020, 05:03:19 pm
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The stock market is often used as a thermometer for the country's health. I wonder if the two-day drop is entirely because of the spread of corona virus, or if some of it has to do with Bernie fever? If it's the corona virus, is the market saying things will get worse -- even much worse? Right now, the death rate seems to be around 2%. If half the people in the US got the virus, that would be three million dead. What do you think?
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The stock market is often used as a thermometer for the country's health. I wonder if the two-day drop is entirely because of the spread of corona virus, or if some of it has to do with Bernie fever? If it's the corona virus, is the market saying things will get worse -- even much worse? Right now, the death rate seems to be around 2%. If half the people in the US got the virus, that would be three million dead. What do you think?
I think many are wondering about both the stock market and the corona virus.
The stock market was overly exuberant and the corona virus reports were a good excuse for a correction. Nevertheless, 1900 points drop in just 2 days is very alarming. Hopefully, we are close to the bottom or it will be reached soon.
As to the corona virus, it is hopelessly out of control, with new infection nests all over (and most likely, they are still under reported).
As I recall, in the SARS case, it took about 5 months to completely eradicate it, and it was much smaller in number of infections and in the distribution range. I hope it will never get to half of the world population becoming infected, but a million cases is a very real possibility.
"We expect we will see community spread in this country," said Dr. Nancy Messonnier, director of the CDC's National Center for Immunization and Respiratory Diseases. "It's not so much a question of if this will happen anymore, but rather more a question of exactly when this will happen and how many people in this country will have severe illness."
https://www.cnn.com/2020/02/25/health/coronavirus-us-american-cases/index.html
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The stock market is often used as a thermometer for the country's health. I wonder if the two-day drop is entirely because of the spread of corona virus, or if some of it has to do with Bernie fever? If it's the corona virus, is the market saying things will get worse -- even much worse? Right now, the death rate seems to be around 2%. If half the people in the US got the virus, that would be three million dead. What do you think?
There's every chance this will come to be seen as one of those moments in history when Man got his comeuppance. Fly me to the Moon, yet we can't properly feed the world or keep it healthy. You get the picture...
Hubris
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It’s just the same old give and take of evolving organisms - us and them. And there are a lot more of them.
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https://www.miamiherald.com/news/health-care/article240476806.html?fbclid=IwAR2nkLmETd-DBokK9SeexdDV1vzp0MoQPgqyNcMfQVUdL-ipHn5xK2fvUb4
The US is probably in for a major epidemic. Millions of people won't be able to afford being tested even if they think they may have the coronavirus.
Cheers,
Bernard
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https://www.miamiherald.com/news/health-care/article240476806.html?fbclid=IwAR2nkLmETd-DBokK9SeexdDV1vzp0MoQPgqyNcMfQVUdL-ipHn5xK2fvUb4
The US is probably in for a major epidemic. Millions of people won't be able to afford being tested even if they think they may have the coronavirus.
Cheers,
Bernard
Relax; the usual suspects will jump up and appeal their new, catch-all Amendment, and say it's all fake news.
Thank God for countries with a real national health service. Instead of so many false, totally empty and meaningless, theoretical and academic freedoms of choices, a real, profit-ignoring care sytem is what folks require, regardless of how their brains have been washed or litres of kool aid consumed.
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Are you saying, Rob, that countries with socialized healthcare are going to have less severe epidemic that the U.S.? Maybe, but really too early to tell.
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Are you saying, Rob, that countries with socialized healthcare are going to have less severe epidemic that the U.S.? Maybe, but really too early to tell.
Hard to say since there are many influencing factors.
Cheers,
Bernard
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Hard to say since there are many influencing factors...
Indeed.
I remember the last mass scare, swine/bird flu, about ten years ago in the States. We had a quite well organized (school gym, thousands of people) and quick mass vaccination. Do not remember if they asked for proof of insurance or just proof of local residency, and I do not remember if that cost me anything major.
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There's every chance this will come to be seen as one of those moments in history when Man got his comeuppance. Fly me to the Moon, yet we can't properly feed the world or keep it healthy. You get the picture...
Hubris
It seems the rails are getting wider by the day...for some.
Peter
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1900 pts loss in two day... must be Trump...
...wait a minute...
...wait a minute....
Trump only moves the points up so it has to be something else... ;)
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1900 points is the largest drop since 2015, so maybe it's Obama's fault.
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https://www.miamiherald.com/news/health-care/article240476806.html?fbclid=IwAR2nkLmETd-DBokK9SeexdDV1vzp0MoQPgqyNcMfQVUdL-ipHn5xK2fvUb4
The US is probably in for a major epidemic. Millions of people won't be able to afford being tested even if they think they may have the coronavirus.
Cheers,
Bernard
What a wonderful story, thanks so much for posting it. Now lets deal with the reality.
The man made a personal decision to go for a cheaper plan, knowing it covered less. A fine choice but it left him paying out of pocket. So what would have most likely have happened if hte had decided to stay with his ACA plan? Well given most of the plans are really not much better in terms of initial coverage, he would still be stuck with the same bill. At best he might have had a gold plan with a small deductable of say $1500, but we really don't know given the story fails to say. But lets assume he was just as price sensitive when he purchase his ACA plan, and picked a cheaper one with a $6000 deductable. So he's STILL out of pocket for the hospital bill.
The story was written to mislead and based on the post I am replying to, it seems it worked.
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What a wonderful story, thanks so much for posting it. Now lets deal with the reality.
The man made a personal decision to go for a cheaper plan, knowing it covered less. A fine choice but it left him paying out of pocket. So what would have most likely have happened if hte had decided to stay with his ACA plan? Well given most of the plans are really not much better in terms of initial coverage, he would still be stuck with the same bill. At best he might have had a gold plan with a small deductable of say $1500, but we really don't know given the story fails to say. But lets assume he was just as price sensitive when he purchase his ACA plan, and picked a cheaper one with a $6000 deductable. So he's STILL out of pocket for the hospital bill.
The story was written to mislead and based on the post I am replying to, it seems it worked.
And that misses the point that in a civilized society, such things already cannot happen.
;-)
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And that misses the point that in a civilized society, such things already cannot happen.
;-)
Why? It's called personal freedom. The guy made a choice, and it appears he choose badly. You have to wonder if he decided a new iPhone or cable tv was more important to him than better health coverage?
But back to the article, it was not espousing universal "free" healthcare. It was nothing more than an attack on the President thinly veiled.
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Now for the important Coronavirus news...Diet Coke supplies may be affected...
https://www.wpxi.com/news/trending/coronavirus-diet-coke-supplies-could-be-affected-by-outbreaks/X6NHFDE5MFFYTIRD4XQQLPMN4U/
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What a wonderful story, thanks so much for posting it. Now lets deal with the reality.
The man made a personal decision to go for a cheaper plan, knowing it covered less. A fine choice but it left him paying out of pocket. So what would have most likely have happened if hte had decided to stay with his ACA plan? Well given most of the plans are really not much better in terms of initial coverage, he would still be stuck with the same bill. At best he might have had a gold plan with a small deductable of say $1500, but we really don't know given the story fails to say. But lets assume he was just as price sensitive when he purchase his ACA plan, and picked a cheaper one with a $6000 deductable. So he's STILL out of pocket for the hospital bill.
The story was written to mislead and based on the post I am replying to, it seems it worked.
The only correct path forward is free market health care! Hospitals only collect 18% of what they bill the Insurance companies.(unless they can sue class action for more then they get 35%) You as the patient are expected to pay your share based on the full original billing say 20%. So the patient really pays the Hospital in full, the insurance company pays nothing and the rest is BS.
It's a beautiful world.
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The only correct path forward is free market health care! Hospitals only collect 18% of what they bill the Insurance companies.(unless they can sue class action for more then they get 35%) You as the patient are expected to pay your share based on the full original billing say 20%. So the patient really pays the Hospital in full, the insurance company pays nothing and the rest is BS.
It's a beautiful world.
[/quote]
I have no idea where you get your numbers, but I would sure like up to see them.
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]The only correct path forward is free market health care! Hospitals only collect 18% of what they bill the Insurance companies.(unless they can sue class action for more then they get 35%) You as the patient are expected to pay your share based on the full original billing say 20%. So the patient really pays the Hospital in full, the insurance company pays nothing and the rest is BS.
That's not remotely what my EOBs show.
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Now for the important Coronavirus news...Diet Coke supplies may be affected...
https://www.wpxi.com/news/trending/coronavirus-diet-coke-supplies-could-be-affected-by-outbreaks/X6NHFDE5MFFYTIRD4XQQLPMN4U/
I drink Diet Coke. The Splenda non-sugar sweetener is made in China!!!! I think I'm going to switch to New Jersey tap water.
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Why? It's called personal freedom. The guy made a choice, and it appears he choose badly. You have to wonder if he decided a new iPhone or cable tv was more important to him than better health coverage?
But back to the article, it was not espousing universal "free" healthcare. It was nothing more than an attack on the President thinly veiled.
I know of no country that has a complete national health service, that precludes anyone from buying any kind of private health insurance that their heart may desire. Now that's freedom of choice: go with either system as suits you best at the time. It's exactly what my wife and I did for many years until she discovered that the cancer care she got privately was in no way better than the national one into which she fell by accident one day. That was the prime reason we stopped the private one, though the price was increadingly painful to bear as well.
It's nice to have it both ways, and to know you won't be out on your ass if you become poor or find yourself in an emergency in a hospital that doesn't accept your card, as happened to me once when I was transferred from one private hospital to another because the first one didn't do stents. That was why I had to pay for it up front and get the money back later as it was not my choice of going there, but the action of the first hospital in sending me. What a mess when money and hospitals mix.
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I know of no country that has a complete national health service, that precludes anyone from buying any kind of private health insurance that their heart may desire.
Thats not the case in Canada for example ( and if I have this incorrect would some Canadian please correct me).
In Canada you can buy suplimental insurance to cover things not covered by the natioanl plan, but you cannot buy private insurance that covers things the national plan covers.
And thats what Bernies Medicare for all does as well. Only suplimental plans since Medicare only covers 80% ( a point many who favor his plan know nothing about..all they hear is free)
Of course the goal here is to force eveyone into one system and to eliminate a perhaps better secondary market outside of MFA.
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Thats not the case in Canada for example ( and if I have this incorrect would some Canadian please correct me).
In Canada you can buy suplimental insurance to cover things not covered by the natioanl plan, but you cannot buy private insurance that covers things the national plan covers.
And thats what Bernies Medicare for all does as well. Only suplimental plans since Medicare only covers 80% ( a point many who favor his plan know nothing about..all they hear is free)
Of course the goal here is to force eveyone into one system and to eliminate a perhaps better secondary market outside of MFA.
If what you write about Canada is correct, then Spain is way ahead.
Rob
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Thats not the case in Canada for example ( and if I have this incorrect would some Canadian please correct me).
In Canada you can buy suplimental insurance to cover things not covered by the natioanl plan, but you cannot buy private insurance that covers things the national plan covers.
And thats what Bernies Medicare for all does as well. Only suplimental plans since Medicare only covers 80% ( a point many who favor his plan know nothing about..all they hear is free)
Of course the goal here is to force eveyone into one system and to eliminate a perhaps better secondary market outside of MFA.
My wife and I are on Medicare. It pays 80% of their schedule rates for medical fees. We're responsible to pay the other 20%. But we have another private plan that we pay for that picks up where Medicare ends. We have co-pays on drugs.
We pay for Medicare. It's not free. Depending on your income it costs around $145 per person per month or $3500 per couple per year. That's minimum. Depending on income, it goes up from there. The premiums are deducted by the government from your Social Security check. So the idea Medicare is free, isn;t true even for the elderly who are covered. It also doesn;t cover doctors who have "opted out". If you want to see those doctors, you have to pay their higher fees fully on your own out-of-pocket. Neither Medicare nor your secondary insurance pays anything. So the better doctors are for the rich. Before we retired and went on Medicare, we had a private plan that covered all doctors. So if they create Medicare for all, many more doctors will opt out and people will have to use worse doctors. So our medical care will go down not up. Lower fees will also attract less qualified people to medicine so that will also reduce the quality of medical care.
Employee's salaries are taxed at 1.4% which is matched by their employer while you are working before you start to collect. So if you earn let's say $50,000 a year, you pay $700 and your employer pays an equal amount. If you earn a million a year, then you pay $14,000 and your employer contributes an equal $14,000. There's no top limit on Medicare deduction from salaries. A big time ball player who earns $10 million would pay $140,000 and his team employer would also contribute $140,000.
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Dental care is not covered at all by the Federal government..
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DOW down another 750 points. My wife bought face masks. We may have to move to Cuba for medical care.
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DOW down another 750 points. My wife bought face masks. We may have to move to Cuba for medical care.
Actually, buying stocks at these depressed prices may be more prudent than buying the masks.
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Actually, buying stocks at these depressed prices may be more prudent than buying the masks.
I'm watching my Apple drop big time today again. (along will all of the rest of my shares) I resisted selling at $324...I'll blame that on my wife :). Considering where I got in for most of my shares I'm still up on APPL bigly.
But buy on the bad news...so in a few more days it might be time for another large investment.
This is however a pretty big hit on our retirement funds...and everyone else.
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The epidemics will likely get worse everywhere and I don't think US will be that lucky to prevent it from happening here.
The problem for a widespread infection is not only its mortality per se, now said to be 2% or so, but overwhelming the already stretched medical system in US. The sicker patients with other problems won't be able to be taken care off properly because the resources are limited.
Btw, this weekend I watched again Contagion. Quite realistic in how things can develop, even if the virus from the movie had a much higher mortality.
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Hopefully it's bark will be worse than its bite.
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One Iranian Cleric appears to have a novel cure for Coronavirus....
"Before bedtime, drench some cotton in violet oil and apply onto your anus"
https://www.alaraby.co.uk/english/news/2020/2/25/applying-essential-oil-to-anus-cures-coronavirus-iranian-cleric
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Sounds like a solid solution to the Democrats' political problem, Craig.
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One Iranian Cleric appears to have a novel cure for Coronavirus....
"Before bedtime, drench some cotton in violet oil and apply onto your anus"
https://www.alaraby.co.uk/english/news/2020/2/25/applying-essential-oil-to-anus-cures-coronavirus-iranian-cleric
No doubt, that would fix also many other ailments. Or attract some young virgins.
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One Iranian Cleric appears to have a novel cure for Coronavirus....
"Before bedtime, drench some cotton in violet oil and apply onto your anus"
https://www.alaraby.co.uk/english/news/2020/2/25/applying-essential-oil-to-anus-cures-coronavirus-iranian-cleric
Nothing new here!! ;~)
Peter
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One Iranian Cleric appears to have a novel cure for Coronavirus....
"Before bedtime, drench some cotton in violet oil and apply onto your anus"
https://www.alaraby.co.uk/english/news/2020/2/25/applying-essential-oil-to-anus-cures-coronavirus-iranian-cleric
I wonder of that's good for hemorrhoids?
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One Iranian Cleric appears to have a novel cure for Coronavirus....
"Before bedtime, drench some cotton in violet oil and apply onto your anus"
https://www.alaraby.co.uk/english/news/2020/2/25/applying-essential-oil-to-anus-cures-coronavirus-iranian-cleric
More serious and concerning is the reporting, further into the link, that looks into the Israeli settlements and the latest proposal to build even more - possibly a nice carrot to aim some voters in certain directions in the upcoming elections there. They sure do cynicism well, don't they! One can see the connections with the same in the States and Britain; the new order of honest men, then.
;-)
Rob
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More serious and concerning is the reporting, further into the link, that looks into the Israeli settlements and the latest proposal to build even more - possibly a nice carrot to aim some voters in certain directions in the upcoming elections there. They sure do cynicism well, don't they! One can see the connections with the same in the States and Britain; the new order of honest men, then.
;-)
Rob
I'll be quire honest with you, I could care less what the folks in the Middle East do at this point. We have lost enough blood and treasure trying to figure it out. If they want to continue to kill each other endlessly, then by all means have at it.
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Apparently, this (5,000 points or $5 trillion in the last 7 days) is the biggest market drop in the entire history.
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Apparently, this (5,000 points or $5 trillion in the last 7 days) is the biggest market drop in the entire history.
Percentage-wise?
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Percentage-wise?
If we look at Dow Jones index, a drop from almost 30,000 to 24,850 constitutes about 17% decline.
Apple dropped from $327 to $262, that's about 20% decline. Many other stocks dropped even steeper.
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If we look at Dow Jones index, a drop from almost 30,000 to 24,850 constitutes about 17% decline.
Apple dropped from $327 to $262, that's about 20% decline. Many other stocks dropped even steeper.
Right, but is that historically the largest decline?
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No
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I read that it was the biggest drop ever, but maybe just in the 7 days time frame. Anyway, it's bad enough and the downturn may still be not finished.
The Dow is coming off its worst-ever point drop, while the S&P 500 Index plummeted into a correction at a historically rapid pace.
The Dow is coming off its worst-ever point drop, while the S&P 500 Index plummeted into a correction at a historically rapid pace.
https://finance.yahoo.com/news/stock-market-news-live-updates-february-28-2020-234447699.html
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I read that it was the biggest drop ever, but maybe just in the 7 days time frame. Anyway, it's bad enough and the downturn may still be not finished.
https://finance.yahoo.com/news/stock-market-news-live-updates-february-28-2020-234447699.html
I think a whole bunch of people may well make a huge fortune buying on the drop.
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I think a whole bunch of people may well make a huge fortune buying on the drop.
Timing the market is perilous. What if the virus really hits and economies collapse and the market drop by 50% after you buy what you thought was the bottom? And then it sits there for the next twenty years. I'm too old to wait for a recovery. Now, if you're a young person, I would invest.
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Timing the market is perilous. What if the virus really hits and economies collapse and the market drop by 50% after you buy what you thought was the bottom? And then it sits there for the next twenty years. I'm too old to wait for a recovery. Now, if you're a young person, I would invest.
Warren Buffet is older, and I bet he is now buying.
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Warren Buffet is older, and I bet he is now buying.
Well, he plans to live to 130. Actually it could be a good time to buy. I think there a lot of fear being driven by American politics from democrats who want the market to collapse to hurt Trump for the upcoming election. Cable news keep talking how the administration doesn't know what it's doing, things are a mess, things are terrible. They said the same things with SARS and ebola. I'm not saying it won;t disrupt the economies of the world. But is it really that bad or just a lot of speculation?
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I think there a lot of fear being driven by American politics from democrats who want the market to collapse to hurt Trump for the upcoming election.
Which Democrats want the market to collapse? I try to keep up but must have missed that.
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I think a whole bunch of people may well make a huge fortune buying on the drop.
Exactly as some did out of the collapsing pound during the Brexit mess.
:-(
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Which Democrats want the market to collapse? I try to keep up but must have missed that.
Do you really think they're going to publicly say, "Boy, let's spread a lot of fear so the market drops and the voters punish Trump."
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Do you really think they're going to publicly say, "Boy, let's spread a lot of fear so the market drops and the voters punish Trump."
So this is some kind of inside information you have?
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So this is some kind of inside information you have?
Don't be naive.
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Don't be naive.
I am just trying to figure out where you come up with this stuff.
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There's more going on here than the virus, although that could be bad. I read a story in the Atlantic which interviewed a couple of prominent epidemiologists who believe that we will have a fullscale pandemic, and that it's too late to stop it. Their thinking is quite interesting. In cases like SARS or MERS, you get very rapid onset and the disease is instantly seen as very serious and so gets immediate attention, and then, of course, many of the potential spreaders...die. The problem with the new virus is that some people get it but are asymptomatic or only mildly ill, so they continue working and traveling and spreading the disease. Still, it may kill up to 2% of the people who get it. If spread widely, like the flu in the US (as the flu would be without vaccines) we could have a couple of million people die.
But, there's more going on in the market. For one thing, it was too high, being held up by traders and hot air. It was way overdue for a drop of some dimension, a correction, if not an actual bear market. These things happen every few years, in normal times, which we've not been having. And the other thing, of course, is Bernie. If it looks like the Dems may nominate Bernie, the market will take an even bigger hit. I doubt the Dems are crazy enough to do that, but that may not be what the overall market thinks. (I stay this as a moderately liberal Democrat.)
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I am just trying to figure out where you come up with this stuff.
You're not paying attention. Politics ain't beanball.
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I am just trying to figure out where you come up with this stuff.
Here is one example, though a bit older than the virus scare:
https://thehill.com/blogs/in-the-know/in-the-know/456942-bill-maher-roots-for-recession-so-that-trump-loses-in-2020
"Bill Maher roots for recession so that Trump loses in 2020"
Comedian Bill Maher on Friday said he "really" wished there was another economic recession, arguing such an event would ruin President Trump's chances of winning reelection.
Maher made similar comments last June on his show, at the time saying "bring on the recession" to get rid of the president.
"Sorry if that hurts people but it's either root for a recession or you lose your democracy," he said last year.
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Here is one example, though a bit older than the virus scare:
https://thehill.com/blogs/in-the-know/in-the-know/456942-bill-maher-roots-for-recession-so-that-trump-loses-in-2020
"Bill Maher roots for recession so that Trump loses in 2020"
+1
They don't really care about the country. It's all about political power and who's got it.
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A detailed overview of the Corona virus in The New York Times:
"How Bad Will the
Coronavirus Outbreak Get?
Here Are 6 Key Factors"
https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2020/world/asia/china-coronavirus-contain.html?fbclid=IwAR0ZrFUJfrSpbc4nT_x-MrVlMs4-z4bSRIukq5LuHsxX0wICtTz3YC_UL7A
This chart puts it into perspective:
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They don't really care about the country. It's all about political power and who's got it.
To be fair, no party cares about the whole country. Parties represent their constituents, and the constituents' interests. They all want power so that they can advance their constituents' interests. If there were a country or society in the world where people wouldn't have competing and differing interests and views, there would be only one party.
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To be fair, no party cares about the whole country. Parties represent their constituents, and the constituents' interests. They all want power so that they can advance their constituents' interests. If there were a country or society in the world where people wouldn't have competing and differing interests and views, there would be only one party.
My point is an old expression about American politics:- Our arguments stop at our shore. We pulled together when a common problem threatened. It doesn;t seem that way anymore. No one seems to care about the country in general. It all comes to to how much your side can gain from a crisis. If the country gets hurt in the process, well, that's just the way it is.
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Here is one example, though a bit older than the virus scare:
https://thehill.com/blogs/in-the-know/in-the-know/456942-bill-maher-roots-for-recession-so-that-trump-loses-in-2020
"Bill Maher roots for recession so that Trump loses in 2020"
For this to be relevant and not just a rather obvious culture war dog at a public figure you don't like, wouldn't you have to show that Bill Maher has influence over the financial markets? Otherwise, it's just hot air, isn't it?
I haven't been following this thread very carefully, but isn't anyone bothered by the fact that Trump tried to politicize a disease? Doesn't that cross a line with anyone?
I hear that Rush Limbaugh was telling folks on his podcast/broadcast that it was all a hoax, that it was just a "cold"?
I'm glad Pence is in charge though. Nice handoff from the Pres, I thought. Maybe Pence will pray again, like he did with the HIV infection issue in his state way back when.
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... wouldn't you have to show that Bill Maher has influence over the financial markets?...
Huh!?
Why would I need to show that?
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For this to be relevant and not just a rather obvious culture war dog at a public figure you don't like, wouldn't you have to show that Bill Maher has influence over the financial markets? Otherwise, it's just hot air, isn't it?
I haven't been following this thread very carefully, but isn't anyone bothered by the fact that Trump tried to politicize a disease? Doesn't that cross a line with anyone?
Every politician and his brother is politicizing it.
I hear that the perennial idiot Rush Limbaugh was telling folks on his podcast/broadcast that it was all a hoax, that it was just a "cold"?
Aside from the fact that the common cold IS a Coronavirus, I’ve not listened to Rush’s actual words, have you? I would think that perhaps actually knowing what was said would be preferable to “hearing”. Just a thought.
I'm glad Pence is in charge though. Nice handoff from the Pres, I thought. Maybe Pence will pray again, like he did with the HIV infection issue in his state way back when.
I’ll assume you are being sarcastic, because if you are not it’s shows a real lack of knowledge on your part.
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Every politician and his brother is politicizing it.
Aside from the fact that the common cold IS a Coronavirus, I’ve not listened to Rush’s actual words, have you? I would think that perhaps actually knowing what was said would be preferable to “hearing”. Just a thought.
I’ll assume you are being sarcastic, because if you are not it’s shows a real lack of knowledge on your part.
I read Paul Klugman's opinion piece in the New York Times. Sorry, I don't have a link, I read it on someone else's machine, I'm not a subscriber. The references I made were based on his piece.
But I managed to find the quote from the Klugman piece about Limbaugh's statement,
" Rush Limbaugh weighed in: “It looks like the coronavirus is being weaponized as yet another element to bring down Donald Trump. Now, I want to tell you the truth about the coronavirus. ... The coronavirus is the common cold, folks.” "
So, do you really think Rush was trying to educate us about virus families?
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I read Paul Klugman's opinion piece in the New York Times. Sorry, I don't have a link, I read it on someone else's machine, I'm not a subscriber. The references I made were based on his piece.
Mistake number 1
But I managed to find the quote from the Klugman piece about Limbaugh's statement,
" Rush Limbaugh weighed in: “It looks like the coronavirus is being weaponized as yet another element to bring down Donald Trump. Now, I want to tell you the truth about the coronavirus. ... The coronavirus is the common cold, folks.” "
So, do you really think Rush was trying to educate us about virus families?
So I went and read the actual transcript from Rush as well as his follow up.
His point was that this virus has not caused a single death at this point in the USA...not a lot different than the common cold.
Now, was it inartfully stated? Absolutely. Was he suggesting that it was not possible for it to get worse? Actually he said the opposite.
Is he correct that the Dems are weaponizing the potential crisis? In my opinion, yes.
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To be fair, no party cares about the whole country. Parties represent their constituents, and the constituents' interests. They all want power so that they can advance their constituents' interests. If there were a country or society in the world where people wouldn't have competing and differing interests and views, there would be only one party.
You have partaken of the same kool aid as did I - for decades.
That is the innocents' view of politics. The freshly displayed truth, unvarnished and visibly red of claw, is that they don't give a stuff for the "constituents' interests" because the constituents are simply the numbers, and you offer them whatever you think will garner their vote, and when you get into power, you line your pockets and do your utmost to make sure that it is ever more difficult for any other party to replace yours; your motivation become opposition destruction, 100% of the time.
Truth is, any politician is just as capable of shouting for any party under the Sun: he/she just picks the one where the competition for top job seems weakest and then he/she goes for it.
If you believe otherwise, you have simply blinded yourself with dogma and party fidelty. Stand aside for a while, and the scales will fall from your eyes. But, if you do that, be warned: things will never feel the same again. Just like photography.
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Rob, the mistake you are making is assuming “constituents” is meant to mean people, or voters, or the whole population of the country. Not at all. Better to think of it as “special interest groups.” It is often said that Republicans are the party of the 1%, ie, of the rich.
(Bush speaking at a campaign dinner to a group of his wealthy donors; bold mine)
George W. Bush:
What an impressive crowd: the haves, and the have-mores. Some people call you the elite, I call you my base.
Democratic base is supposed to be workers and middle class, but it warped lately into “victims” in general (all kind of “victimized” minorities). If you are not a victim, or don’t feel like one, they’ll make sure you understand you are. That’s where the PC indoctrination and terror come into play.
Your view of politicians is utterly cynical. Yes, some enter the game for personal monetary gain. But that’s a side effect of how and why parties were formed. A group of people decide to defend their interests, get together, form a party and select some among themselves to represent them. That’s how even Magna Carta was born.
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You guys should leave politics out of this. The current administration is not and the price will be paid. As I said were earlier, it's not just about the actual mortality but overwhelming the medical system with too many people; ERs will be full with people having the virus but not being that sick while people who really need to be seen (for serious cases or other conditions) will be out of reach.
I don't know if you noticed the buying frenzy and the out of stock foods, the panic that is starting will be as bad as the virus itself.
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Rob, the mistake you are making is assuming “constituents” is meant to mean people, or voters, or the whole population of the country. Not at all. Better to think of it as “special interest groups.” It is often said that Republicans are the party of the 1%, ie, of the rich.
(Bush speaking at a campaign dinner to a group of his wealthy donors; bold mine)
Democratic base is supposed to be workers and middle class, but it warped lately into “victims” in general (all kind of “victimized” minorities). If you are not a victim, or don’t feel like one, they’ll make sure you understand you are. That’s where the PC indoctrination and terror come into play.
Your view of politicians is utterly cynical. Yes, some enter the game for personal monetary gain. But that’s a side effect of how and why parties were formed. A group of people decide to defend their interests, get together, form a party and select some among themselves to represent them. That’s how even Magna Carta was born.
Cynicism = experience; shattering of illusions - or of sunglasses in rose...
The Magna Carta was born out of duress!
;-)
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George W. Bush:
What an impressive crowd: the haves, and the have-mores. Some people call you the elite, I call you my base.
Or the less-ons and the more-ons.
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I don't know if you noticed the buying frenzy and the out of stock foods, the panic that is starting will be as bad as the virus itself.
Some advice from a shithole country...
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I'm not panicking, I know better, but if everybody else does it will make no difference what I do.
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My wife isn't panicking, but she's a former (very good) reporter and she notices. She came home from the CVS drug store yesterday and reported a note on the door that apologized for being out of stock of face masks and hand sanitizers. It hasn't gotten to the point of people stocking up on food, but there's a tipping point...
Many years ago, Johnny Carson famously made a joke about a shortage of toilet paper, and it started a run on toilet paper that turned into a real shortage (because excess toilet paper was then being stored in people's homes rather than in stores.) If we get to a tipping point in our computer-operated, just-in-time economy, there could be a real problem.
https://paleymatters.org/johnny-carson-and-the-toilet-paper-scare-of-73-44dbb95eb580
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GE just told me the warehouse is delayed with some part, the handle, I ordered for my microwave. I wonder if it really has to do with slow shipments from China?
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My wife isn't panicking, but she's a former (very good) reporter and she notices. She came home from the CVS drug store yesterday and reported a note on the door that apologized for being out of stock of face masks and hand sanitizers. It hasn't gotten to the point of people stocking up on food, but there's a tipping point...
Many years ago, Johnny Carson famously made a joke about a shortage of toilet paper, and it started a run on toilet paper that turned into a real shortage (because excess toilet paper was then being stored in people's homes rather than in stores.) If we get to a tipping point in our computer-operated, just-in-time economy, there could be a real problem.
https://paleymatters.org/johnny-carson-and-the-toilet-paper-scare-of-73-44dbb95eb580
My wife bought masks at Walgreens. They're not the N95's. But I doubt if I'll walk around with anything on anyway.
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My wife bought masks at Walgreens. They're not the N95's. But I doubt if I'll walk around with anything on anyway.
The medical experts I have seen recently said that masks do very little to protect you from the virus and people who are not infected should not wear them. They do the most good when worn by those who are infected and help prevent speading the virus.
We were shopping the last few day at Sams and Costco. Not a lot of seemingly panic buying but we did lay in some extra can goods, meat for the freezer and of course toilet paper. We tend to stay pretty well stocked in normal times anyways. I've also refilled all my perscription drugs if possible. Panic is one thing, not taking some effort to be somewhat prepared is silly.
As a side note we now have a confirmed death in Washinghton...
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The medical experts I have seen recently said that masks do very little to protect you from the virus and people who are not infected should not wear them. They do the most good when worn by those who are infected and help prevent speading the virus.
We were shopping the last few day at Sams and Costco. Not a lot of seemingly panic buying but we did lay in some extra can goods, meat for the freezer and of course toilet paper. We tend to stay pretty well stocked in normal times anyways. I've also refilled all my perscription drugs if possible. Panic is one thing, not taking some effort to be somewhat prepared is silly.
As a side note we now have a confirmed death in Washinghton...
Just watched Britain's Rick Stein doing a weekend's gastronomic cruise of the eateries in Bologna. He suggests more of us visit that northern Italian university town. Ironic timing indeed!
I love to hate that guy: I can't resist watching his shows, and his French canal series made me despair at my absolute inability to try cooking and get anything right. He also had a more recent series on France where he taunted both my appetite and interest in things Porsche. Grrrr..... !
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As a side note we now have a confirmed death in Washinghton...
Must be a Democrat hoax. Trump said yesterday everyone was doing better.
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Must be a Democrat hoax. Trump said yesterday everyone was doing better.
That needs to be put into perspective: annual death toll for the regular flu in 2018/2019 season (October through May) was 60K
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That needs to be put into perspective: annual death toll for the regular flu in 2018/2019 season (October through May) was 60K
One death in 15 cases is a 6.6% mortality rate. Let's hope that no more cases are reported. I am optimistic. Trump said that in a couple of days the number of cases would be close to zero.
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That needs to be put into perspective: annual death toll for the regular flu in 2018/2019 season (October through May) was 60K
Mortality rate for coronavirus is about 10 times worse than for seasonal influenza. If the infection rate stays where it is now, we'll be OK. but if it is not contained, it could get much more serious than the flu.
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Must be a Democrat hoax. Trump said yesterday everyone was doing better.
I don't believe he did. I think I remember him saying one person was not doing so well. I'm really to lazy to go look though.
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Mortality rate for coronavirus is about 10 times worse than for seasonal influenza. If the infection rate stays where it is now, we'll be OK. but if it is not contained, it could get much more serious than the flu.
It will be interesing to see how the mortality rates change here is the US if they do.
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I watched TRump's news conference today on coronavirus where he brought in all the key players who will handle the crises. They seem to have a handle on government action. Trump started a month ago shutting down routes from China to protect America while the Democrats were busy impeaching him and wasting everyone's time. Today Trump signed a peace deal in Afghanistan with the Taliban so he can bring home American troops. Trump's a man of action who gets things done. His enemies just call him names.
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I watched TRump's news conference today on coronavirus where he brought in all the key players who will handle the crises. They seem to have a handle on government action. Trump started a month ago shutting down routes from China to protect America while the Democrats were busy impeaching him and wasting everyone's time. Today Trump signed a peace deal in Afghanistan with the Taliban so he can bring home American troops. Trump's a man of action who gets things done. His enemies just call him names.
Such a pandemic team used to be part of the swamp not long ago, https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/trump-fire-pandemic-team/?fbclid=IwAR0qP22I61nEHVUnFfI-3Owtvnbt3oTUbIO4OwH8sMSUwt8lKlQ-Td_rILc (https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/trump-fire-pandemic-team/?fbclid=IwAR0qP22I61nEHVUnFfI-3Owtvnbt3oTUbIO4OwH8sMSUwt8lKlQ-Td_rILc), so he got rid of them.
Don't get me wrong, I hope the team that he put into place does a fantastic job. That's EXACTLY the kind of thing public authorities should be doing. And they were doing it till he fired them. I guess this way he can claim credit. Most people can probably live with that so long as it works, that's what a lot politics is now, feeding narcissists' egos.
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Such a pandemic team used to be part of the swamp not long ago, https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/trump-fire-pandemic-team/?fbclid=IwAR0qP22I61nEHVUnFfI-3Owtvnbt3oTUbIO4OwH8sMSUwt8lKlQ-Td_rILc (https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/trump-fire-pandemic-team/?fbclid=IwAR0qP22I61nEHVUnFfI-3Owtvnbt3oTUbIO4OwH8sMSUwt8lKlQ-Td_rILc), so he got rid of them.
that's what a lot politics is now, feeding narcissists' egos.
Sadly true, but feeding EGO, has been a lot longer then just now...
Peter
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Sadly true, but feeding EGO, has been a lot longer then just now...
Peter
Yes, quite correct.
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Trump stated that a lot of affected people are getting better. He said that 22 people were currently ill with the virus, including four he said are “very ill.” In fact, 70 cases have been reported in the country.
https://www.nytimes.com/2020/02/29/us/politics/trump-coronavirus.html
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Trump stated that a lot of affected people are getting better. He said that 22 people were currently ill with the virus, including four he said are “very ill.” In fact, 70 cases have been reported in the country.
https://www.nytimes.com/2020/02/29/us/politics/trump-coronavirus.html
So tell me, was Trump correct given the information he was given at the time or is the Times spreading fake news by using number from a different time frame.
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Mortality rate for coronavirus is about 10 times worse than for seasonal influenza.
That depends entirely on the accuracy of the reported figures. While the death figure is probably reasonably accurate, the number of cases is likely to be a significant underestimate, as it will probably exclude all those who have only mild symptoms.
Jeremy
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That depends entirely on the accuracy of the reported figures. While the death figure is probably reasonably accurate, the number of cases is likely to be a significant underestimate, as it will probably exclude all those who have only mild symptoms.
Jeremy
But that's true for the Corona flu as well as the normal yearly flu. In fact I'd say given the focus on the Corona virus I would say the reported numbers are more accurate than the reported numbers for the regular flu.
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So tell me, was Trump correct given the information he was given at the time or is the Times spreading fake news by using number from a different time frame.
Based on Trump's various other earlier statements that turned out to be inaccurate, there is a high likelihood that also his coronavirus numbers didn't reflect the latest situation.
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Based on Trump's various other earlier statements that turned out to be inaccurate, there is a high likelihood that also his coronavirus numbers didn't reflect the latest situation.
Are you really serious? He was standing with memebers of the CDC and had just finished a meeting with a much larger group. One would think they would have the most up to date information. So in your world, Trump, having just finished meeting on the topic and standing with the members of the team, just made it up, instead of the New York Times using a number from an unknown time frame writing to make Trump look bad.
OK, if thats your story so be it. Not a very good look for you.
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Are you really serious? He was standing with memebers of the CDC and had just finished a meeting with a much larger group. One would think they would have the most up to date information. So in your world, Trump, having just finished meeting on the topic and standing with the members of the team, just made it up, instead of the New York Times using a number from an unknown time frame writing to make Trump look bad.
OK, if thats your story so be it. Not a very good look for you.
Are we talking about the same Trump?
President Trump misidentified the nation’s first coronavirus fatality as a “wonderful woman” on Saturday — the victim, in fact, was a man who died in a Seattle-area hospital, officials said.
https://nypost.com/2020/02/29/trump-misidentifies-first-us-coronavirus-fatality-calling-man-a-wonderful-woman/
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Are we talking about the same Trump?
https://nypost.com/2020/02/29/trump-misidentifies-first-us-coronavirus-fatality-calling-man-a-wonderful-woman/
Absolutely the same Trump. So if youu want to stick with your story that Trump was 48 cases off after just talking to the people counting the cases, be my guest. It still looks bad on you...
BTW, from your article...
“CDC erroneously identified the patient as female in a briefing earlier today with the President and Vice President.”
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Absolutely the same Trump. So if youu want to stick with your story that Trump was 48 cases off after just talking to the people counting the cases, be my guest. It still looks bad on you...
BTW, from your article...
“CDC erroneously identified the patient as female in a briefing earlier today with the President and Vice President.”
So it looks like Trump is a truth teller, but for some reason sometimes he is fed wrong information by unreliable staff.
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So it looks like Trump is a truth teller, but for some reason sometimes he is fed wrong information by unreliable staff.
Yep, it’s a pretty fluid situation, but hey in your world the unreliable NYT is always right.
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Yep, it’s a pretty fluid situation, but hey in your world the unreliable NYT is always right.
Actually, I get most of my information from Reuters and Spiegel.
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Actually, I get most of my information from Reuters and Spiegel.
And yet you stared this nonsense with the NYT...
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Usually, I start with Spiegel (they are surprisingly quick with reporting events in the whole world) and if I see an interesting article, instead of quoting it in German, I quickly look up that very topic on Google, and whatever comes first, I use for the quote. If you look at my previous posts, you'll see there all kinds of references (however, I avoid Al Jazeera, Chinadaily and Pravda). Sometimes, if I don't find equivalent article in the English press, I might attempt my own translation for the benefit of LuLa readers.
Here is the Spiegel article, which got my interest:
https://www.spiegel.de/politik/ausland/covid-19-in-den-usa-ansteckungsgefahr-fuer-wahlkampf-von-donald-trump-a-176144f1-d625-44a3-9e29-df498ef8f067
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Usually, I start with Spiegel (they are surprisingly quick with reporting events in the whole world) and if I see an interesting article, instead of quoting it in German, I quickly look up that very topic on Google, and whatever comes first, I use for the quote. If you look at my previous posts, you'll see there all kinds of references (however, I avoid Al Jazeera, Chinadaily and Pravda). Sometimes, if I don't find equivalent article in the English press, I might attempt my own translation for the benefit of LuLa readers.
Here is the Spiegel article, which got my interest:
https://www.spiegel.de/politik/ausland/covid-19-in-den-usa-ansteckungsgefahr-fuer-wahlkampf-von-donald-trump-a-176144f1-d625-44a3-9e29-df498ef8f067
So it still leaves you in a very bad place regardless of your original source as I outlined in my first post to you.
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I had hoped to keep the focus here on the market and the virus, and not Trump, because I felt Trump had been exhausted as a topic in other threads. Sadly, that turned out not to be the case.
As to the market, the futures say it's gong to open down some 300 points Monday morning, but that, of course, could quickly be reversed. I'm very interested in what happens Monday in New York. I'm not very interested in Trump.
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[link deleted]
For those who can't keep the politics out
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Usually, I start with Spiegel...
Yes, Les, Spiegel is very objective when it comes to Trump:
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[link deleted]
For those who can't keep the politics out
Armand, I have reminded people numerous times that links to external sites, even youtube, must be accompanied by an indication of what is there and why it may be useful.
Jeremy
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Yes, Les, Spiegel is very objective when it comes to Trump:
Slobodan, you are right, Trump might be their most popular subject. He and his pictures on the cover must be effective in selling more copies.
Spiegel is slightly left leaning and more critical of Trump now than when he started his presidential term. It seems to me that this reflects the overall German sentiment. OTOH, the Swiss Neue Zuercher Zeitung (nzz.ch) is leaning the other way and not quite so obsessed with USA and EU affairs, so I recommend reading both of them to get a more balanced picture of the world.
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Armand, I have reminded people numerous times that links to external sites, even youtube, must be accompanied by an indication of what is there and why it may be useful.
Jeremy
There was a hint in my description but I'll be more specific.
It's the SNL sketch on the coronavirus management here in US. And worry not, it hits both sides of the political spectrum.
https://youtu.be/H4qvO0StKto
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there is a lot that we do not know about the COVID-19 infection. The early epidemology data from the Wuhan area is interesting in that on 2% of those <20 years of age have been identified as being infected. This is based on testing of those who showed clear symptoms. The young people may have had very mild symptoms that did not warrant testing. More data is needed and testing needs to be expanded to many more individuals so that we have good background numbers on what the true morbidity and mortality of this virus is. It is possible that it turns out to be less than what is expected based on the early numbers and the small number of cases in Washington state where the virus appears to have been first seen some weeks ago might point to this.
It’s going to be interesting to see how quickly a vaccine candidate can be identified, tested and scaled up. I hope that things don’t get over-promised. From what I’ve read, safety testing won’t even start until April and there are some interesting new approaches. Moderna Therapeutics in Cambridge has a mRNA based vaccine but I don’t think something like this has ever been licensed or even scaled up. Some big vaccine makers are working on this as well (I’ve seen reports that Sanofi, J&J, and GSK are doing so) and all have scaled up vaccine manufacturing technology. We’ll see how this all plays out but if one does come out of trials we won’t have enough vaccine for at least a year and we are potentially looking at vaccinating the entire world; a far different prospect than the seasonal flu vaccine. I hope this effort is successful and not a repeat of the quest for an HIV vaccine.
Gilead have sent remdesivir out for trials on the drug front. Since this was already looked at as an Ebola treatment, it has passed Phase 1 trials. It appears to be active in vitro against COVID-19. We’ll see how this happens.
What is needed is a Manhattan Project approach against this group of viruses but NIH and others dropped the ball several years ago. This cannot happen again.
Just my random thoughts as someone who spent 30 years working in the biopharma industry.
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Someone sent me this, apparently from an old textbook. I do not know if true or not:
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Someone sent me this, apparently from an old textbook. I do not know if true or not:
Not true.
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Not true.
I don't think you meant that.
Common cold is caused by multiple families of viruses, the most common being rhinovirus, coronavirus, RSV and parainfluenza.
There are however several types of coronaviruses that became pathologic for humans and to which we don't have much immunity and can be more serious, such as the current epidemic.
https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/general-information.html
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I don't think you meant that.
Common cold is caused by multiple families of viruses, the most common being rhinovirus, coronavirus, RSV and parainfluenza.
There are however several types of coronaviruses that became pathologic for humans and to which we don't have much immunity and can be more serious, such as the current epidemic.
https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/general-information.html
I did mean that. Corona virus is an umbrella definition that needs a lot of refining. Morbidity and mortality are vastly different. As I noted in my previous post, there is a lot that we still don't know and until we have a good background infection number, everything is conjecture.
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What you say has value but doesn't negate that textbook or what I wrote.
Coronavirus family commonly cause common cold. Some coronaviruses behave differently, such as COVID-19. That we need more data points for COVID-19 doesn't change the fact that it's a coronavirus and that coronaviruses family usually cause common cold.
The focus would be on knowing people this is the black sheep of the family.
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I heard this morning that's coronavirus morbidity rate is not 2% but rather .2%. If true, just how much of a threat is just a lot of hype because it's election season?
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I heard this morning that's coronavirus morbidity rate is not 2% but rather .2%. If true, just how much of a threat is just a lot of hype because it's election season?
There are different estimates, even about Influenza (and they differ by year). It also matters if the mortality rate is expressed as a percentage of all-cause deaths globally, or of deaths from lower respiratory tract infections directly caused by influenza.
Nothing to do with conspiracy theories.
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I heard this morning that's coronavirus morbidity rate is not 2% but rather .2%. If true, just how much of a threat is just a lot of hype because it's election season?
You are confusing morbidity with mortality. Morbidity is illness, mortality is death. Try explaining to Italy, Japan, South Korea, China, etc. that they should not be concerned because this is all hype related to the US elections. Try to use some common sense of your own and look at the reactions beyond the US borders. If you want to focus on the US, look at Seattle.
The bottom line as I already noted is we need much more testing to establish a reliable background rate of infection. Until we have that information everything is just conjecture.
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What you say has value but doesn't negate that textbook or what I wrote.
Coronavirus family commonly cause common cold. Some coronaviruses behave differently, such as COVID-19. That we need more data points for COVID-19 doesn't change the fact that it's a coronavirus and that coronaviruses family usually cause common cold.
The focus would be on knowing people this is the black sheep of the family.
Virological classifications were done based on the shape of the virus as gathered and as I noted imprecise. This is really not a debate worth having unless you are a virologist.
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You are confusing morbidity with mortality. Morbidity is illness, mortality is death. Try explaining to Italy, Japan, South Korea, China, etc. that they should not be concerned because this is all hype related to the US elections. Try to use some common sense of your own and look at the reactions beyond the US borders. If you want to focus on the US, look at Seattle.
The bottom line as I already noted is we need much more testing to establish a reliable background rate of infection. Until we have that information everything is just conjecture.
I never said the illness was not real. What I'm saying is that it's being overblown here in the States because it's election season. The anti-Trumpers are trying to make Trump responsible for the disease and deaths. They're trying to scare everyone to help the markets sink hurting Trump's economic success record, his key argument for a second term. Anyone who's paying attention, or isn;t anti-Trump themselves, sees that right away.
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DOW up 1294 points.
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Sorry Democrats. It didn't work.
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Sorry Democrats. It didn't work.
What didn't work, you lost me?
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What didn't work, you lost me?
Yet another coup attempt.
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I never said the illness was not real. What I'm saying is that it's being overblown here in the States because it's election season. The anti-Trumpers are trying to make Trump responsible for the disease and deaths. They're trying to scare everyone to help the markets sink hurting Trump's economic success record, his key argument for a second term. Anyone who's paying attention, or isn;t anti-Trump themselves, sees that right away.
Try to get a grip, man. It's somewhat possible that not much will happen here. It's also possible that if it sweeps the country like flu, something like 2 million people could die. Right now, the mortality rate is looking like something around 2%, and much higher than that in people your age, possibly as high as 8%. There are more than 300 million people in the U.S. If everybody got it -- unlikely -- that would be something more than 6 million dead people. This is not some silly-ass pro-Trump anti-Trump gag, this is real world stuff.
Edit: 4 more dead in Washington State.
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Virological classifications were done based on the shape of the virus as gathered and as I noted imprecise. This is really not a debate worth having unless you are a virologist.
??
Try me, I might know a thing or two about this viral/medical business.
So far the only thing I got from you is that you don't think the current identification is accurate and the COVID-19 is actually a coronavirus, which is a fair point if you have some inside info on how accurate the initial ID is.
As for the coronavirus family what I wrote stands.
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What didn't work, you lost me?
I think he meant that the virus containment didn't work as Trump promised. But that's hardly Democrat's fault.
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Yet another coup attempt.
Be patient. They haven't caught up yet.
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...There are more than 300 million people in the U.S. If everybody got it -- unlikely -- that would be something more than 6 million dead people. This is not some silly-ass pro-Trump anti-Trump gag, this is real world stuff...
This is some silly-ass calc, even if you qualified it as unlikely. The higher mortality rate, the less widespread it is. So, it is either or. Either 300 million get infected, but with a much lower mortality rate, or much less people get infected, but with a higher mortality rate. Either way, 6 million is just Democrats' wet dream.
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Try to get a grip, man. It's somewhat possible that not much will happen here. It's also possible that if it sweeps the country like flu, something like 2 million people could die. Right now, the mortality rate is looking like something around 2%, and much higher than that in people your age, possibly as high as 8%. There are more than 300 million people in the U.S. If everybody got it -- unlikely -- that would be something more than 6 million dead people. This is not some silly-ass pro-Trump anti-Trump gag, this is real world stuff.
Edit: 4 more dead in Washington State.
Interestly it may backfire on the Democrats. By overplaying their hand, trying to make Trump culpable and making it seem like he's not doing his job, they pushed him into a corner. So he now has all hands on deck. He'll command the cable airways every day now, getting free campaign ads in the form of VP Pence and the virus control team working really hard to contain it. The airwaves show him meeting with the pharmaceutical industry commending their actions to work hard for the American people. All this will help Trump in the election as a man of action protecting the country against disease as well as a man of economic and market genius. The Dems still haven't learned that when you hit Trump once, he hits back twice as hard.
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There are more than 300 million people in the U.S. If everybody got it -- unlikely -- that would be something more than 6 million dead people. This is not some silly-ass pro-Trump anti-Trump gag, this is real world stuff.
<<
We calculated with an enormous amount of uncertainty that 1% of those infected might die — with a fourfold margin of error in each direction. So a death rate of 0.25% of cases would be similar to the 1957 and 1968 influenza pandemics [both estimated to have killed at least one million people] while a 4% rate would compare with the 1918 Spanish flu epidemic [with a death toll estimated at 40 million to 50 million].
>>
Medical faculty, Imperial College London
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One of the most difficult things about this coronavirus is that people can be infected and have no symptoms at all. It doesn’t present like a common cold and the symptoms can range from completely unapparent to serious disease to going into intensive care.
Generally, you might feel a cough and discomfort around the chest rather than the symptoms of a cold, sometimes accompanied by gastrointestinal discomfort, such as diarrhoea. It makes it so hard to control when there isn’t a definite disease syndrome associated with being infectious. It’s clear that you don’t have to be very symptomatic to pass this on.
From what we have learnt so far, it seems that virus shedding — the transmission stage from infected persons — is going on relatively early during the course of infection. Within a few days of presentation to hospital, tests can quite often become negative — suggesting the virus has gone — but then sometimes go positive again. Whether you can catch the virus more than once is still one of the great unknowns.
One aspect we have noticed from the Chinese data is that so far only 2% of cases are affecting people under the age of 19. In Japan they have closed the schools, which might help if the disease is being sustained by person-to-person transmission among children. With this virus, we do not know that is the case.
In any event, viruses of this kind tend to be susceptible to heat and sunlight. The more we can delay the outbreak until the weather warms up and it’s summer, the more it will blunt the peak and the easier it will be for healthcare services to cope — even if the numbers rebound once autumn is with us.
Dr Peter Openshaw, Professor of Experimental Medicine, Imperial College London
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Interestly it may backfire on the Democrats....
You might be obsessing, just sayin'.
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Quote
One of the most difficult things about this coronavirus is that people can be infected and have no symptoms at all. It doesn’t present like a common cold and the symptoms can range from completely unapparent to serious disease to going into intensive care.
Generally, you might feel a cough and discomfort around the chest rather than the symptoms of a cold, sometimes accompanied by gastrointestinal discomfort, such as diarrhoea. It makes it so hard to control when there isn’t a definite disease syndrome associated with being infectious. It’s clear that you don’t have to be very symptomatic to pass this on.
From what we have learnt so far, it seems that virus shedding — the transmission stage from infected persons — is going on relatively early during the course of infection. Within a few days of presentation to hospital, tests can quite often become negative — suggesting the virus has gone — but then sometimes go positive again. Whether you can catch the virus more than once is still one of the great unknowns.
One aspect we have noticed from the Chinese data is that so far only 2% of cases are affecting people under the age of 19. In Japan they have closed the schools, which might help if the disease is being sustained by person-to-person transmission among children. With this virus, we do not know that is the case.
In any event, viruses of this kind tend to be susceptible to heat and sunlight. The more we can delay the outbreak until the weather warms up and it’s summer, the more it will blunt the peak and the easier it will be for healthcare services to cope — even if the numbers rebound once autumn is with us.
Dr Peter Openshaw, Professor of Experimental Medicine, Imperial College London
So if there are no symptoms, and the person doesn;t die, what does it matter?
So when it warms up, the disease might be killed. That's what Dr. Trump said that the disease will be gone in the Spring when it warms up.
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You might be obsessing, just sayin'.
...about what?
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So if there are no symptoms, and the person doesn;t die, what does it matter?
1. Because the infected person is potentially shedding virus, infecting others who might not be so lucky.
2. Please learn the difference between a semi-colon and an apostrophe. It's a recurrent feature of your posts. The fact that they're on adjacent keys doesn't make them equivaleny. Sorry, equivalent.
Jeremy
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But hey, listen, there's always a bright side to coronas. They used to say: change the name and not the letter, change for worse and not for better. That was in the good old days of marriages etc. when folks knew what was what and who was who or what.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KFCXd9NanLY
Think positively!
Rob
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For those interested, here is the most current WHO thinking: https://www.who.int/docs/default-source/coronaviruse/who-china-joint-mission-on-covid-19-final-report.pdf
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1. Because the infected person is potentially shedding virus, infecting others who might not be so lucky.
2. Please learn the difference between a semi-colon and an apostrophe. It's a recurrent feature of your posts. The fact that they're on adjacent keys doesn't make them equivaleny. Sorry, equivalent.
Jeremy
I don;t always get it right, Often, I'll go back to correct it after posting? It seems to be a little tic I have! I'll be more careful in the future.:)
Regarding your point about infecting others. I realized that when I said that "who cares?" My point being that for those infected who could be of huge portion, there are no real terrible symptoms unlike most other diseases. That even if you get it, reactions are mild for most people. It's not the Black Death for most people. That should calm fears about it.
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For those interested, here is the most current WHO thinking: https://www.who.int/docs/default-source/coronaviruse/who-china-joint-mission-on-covid-19-final-report.pdf
The report conclusion for the Public included a confirmation of my point:
For the public
1. Recognize that COVID-19 is a new and concerning disease, but that outbreaks
can managed with the right response and that the vast majority of infected
people will recover;
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That's from pg 22 of the report.
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...the vast majority of infected people will recover;
Well, duh!
That was obvious already from the 2% mortality rate (if correct) ;)
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Well, duh!
That was obvious already from the 2% mortality rate (if correct) ;)
It's not just the 2% mortality rate. It's that many people who are infected don't even know that they are. The symptoms are that mild.
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This is good news for the rest of the world epidemiologically and economically.
Foxconn, the main assembler of Apple (AAPL) products such as the iPhone and iPad, expects to resume normal production by the end of the month after the coronavirus outbreak forced it to close factories in China in late January.
https://www.cnn.com/2020/03/03/tech/foxconn-coronavirus-apple/index.html
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This is good news for the rest of the world epidemiologically . . .
Foxconn, the main assembler of Apple (AAPL) products such as the iPhone and iPad, expects to resume normal production by the end of the month. . . .
It's an enormous relief to those of us who have been worrying about the pandemic threat of Android cellphones.
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The report conclusion for the Public included a confirmation of my point:
For the public
1. Recognize that COVID-19 is a new and concerning disease, but that outbreaks
can managed with the right response and that the vast majority of infected
people will recover;
The flu is estimated to kill between 18,000 and 42,000 people annually in the US, depending on the exact form of the virus. That's with a mortality rate of less than one tenth of 1 percent. At 2 percent for COVID-19, we'd have 20 times the death rate of the flu, but unlike with the flu, there are no vaccines to protect people (about half of Americans get flu shots.) I basically don't care about people who have only a mild case of COVID-19; they can take care of themselves. But the elderly are gonna get whacked hard. I doubt that the rate is actually 2%, I suspect it will probably be half that because we don't really know how many people have contracted COVID-19 and recover without incident or a report. But even half would b an almost unprecedented disaster in the US, far more than annual flu deaths and auto-accident deaths combined.
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John Camp's point is right on and something I touched on in my previous post. Thanks to the bungling CDC, the US is way behind in diagnostic testing. Until we have a firm baseline on infection numbers, attempts to come up with statistics on morbidity and mortality are almost worthless.
So much for the Federal Reserve rate cut that took place this morning. As of 2 PM, EST the market is again heading south.
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Chinese stats:
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Chinese stats:
Could it be that, due to the one-child policy, the number of young people is below average in the Chinese demographics? If so then it's obvious that their age group will also be relatively underrepresented in these Corona statistics. I know that the rate is per age category, but it looks abnormal. And of course these are government statistics, so they could be fake news.
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Could it be that, due to the one-child policy, the number of young people is below average in the Chinese demographics? If so then it's obvious that their age group will also be relatively underrepresented in these Corona statistics.
No, it's stranger than that. The Wuhan data show very low rates of infection in those under 20 years of age. those of us who had children know that it's very hard to get them to reliably wash hands and keep them away from their face when dirty. Because of this one would think the infection rate would be much higher. It may be that they don't present with significant clinical symptoms and hence are not screened for the COVID-19. It points to the fact that much more screening needs to be done including the general population so that we can get a good baseline. "If" the rate of infection is much higher than we think than the morbidity and mortality rates go way down. This is just another piece of the puzzle that needs to be solved.
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Chinese stats:
I'm in the 8% group. I'm locking myself up in the house until this thing passes. :)
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It's an enormous relief to those of us who have been worrying about the pandemic threat of Android cellphones.
I don't know if you're being sarcastic Chris. But the point I was making is that if the factories are opening, then the virus is on the downswing in China. They had a few thousand dead out of a billion plus people, much less than a typical influenza season. So if those figures hold over here, we're really talking about another flu type infection here in the states only not as bad. Even the CDC says let's not over sell the illness to scare people, something that's happening because this is election season as well as flu season.
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Statistics can be deceiving. It doesn't matter that your chance of dying is only 2% if you happen to be in those 2%.
Keep in mind also there were multiple Chinese doctors dead and I doubt they were that old and/or with that many comorbidities.
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Some interesting strategies...
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Some interesting strategies...
All kinds of people do suicide vests; a few gentle, well-aimed sneezes could be just as dramatic. And better yet, no need for the messy suicide part! What's not to like?
:-)
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Some interesting strategies...
There are idiots everywhere
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With the DOW down 785 points today despite and .5% drop in government rates, the economy long term may be more of a problem than the virus. What happened to Bush in 2008 may happen to Trump this year.
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I say this non-humorously...if it turns out the mortality rate for the COVID-19 is 1% or less, and there's no chance of stopping it, why not just give up and get the factories and shipping going again, to minimize the economic impact?
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I say this non-humorously...if it turns out the mortality rate for the COVID-19 is 1% or less, and there's no chance of stopping it, why not just give up and get the factories and shipping going again, to minimize the economic impact?
Because not everybody will be getting it, probably less than half of the US population will get it even in the worst case scenario.
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It's not just the 2% mortality rate. It's that many people who are infected don't even know that they are. The symptoms are that mild.
Yes...for some they are mild...thus much more dangerous for those that cannot handle the virus. It can spread like wildfire and slowly pick off the vulnerable, the one's with weakened immune systems.
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Statistics can be deceiving. It doesn't matter that your chance of dying is only 2% if you happen to be in those 2%.
Keep in mind also there were multiple Chinese doctors dead and I doubt they were that old and/or with that many comorbidities.
Yep...tell that statistic to the 9 dead in Washington state.
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I say this non-humorously...if it turns out the mortality rate for the COVID-19 is 1% or less, and there's no chance of stopping it, why not just give up and get the factories and shipping going again, to minimize the economic impact?
How would you feel if you were in that 1%? Just collateral damage?
After all the rich need to keep making their money...who cares about some casualties.
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I say this non-humorously...if it turns out the mortality rate for the COVID-19 is 1% or less, and there's no chance of stopping it, why not just give up and get the factories and shipping going again, to minimize the economic impact?
Because it's a big 'IF'.
Before you get to your multi-million corpses, you risk paralysing whole countries.
So the first line of defence is 'containment'.
Mortality may be say 2%, but the contagion factor is much higher. (see #128)
Police forces, armed forces, medical and health facilities and personnel, productive output all incapacitated - hell, even half the Iranian government are already wiped out! (ok, only 23 so far but the number's increasing).
Even Her Majesty The Queen has taken to wearing gloves!
(https://i.guim.co.uk/img/media/95c8edf19ab6179094ef273b367d0e42701ff9ad/0_49_1952_1172/master/1952.jpg?width=620&quality=85&auto=format&fit=max&s=6a7ec9a6e07da789bc5d509050c27ae2)
Of course, there's a good reason to take up your suggestion. Congregating and thus wiping out the 2 most vulnerable groups would reduce the population in one easy step, wipe out government pension obligations (and possibly even facilitate a solution to the ongoing ACA saga). Back across the pond, analysis of the latest election results showed that eliminating the older age groups would not only have reversed the result but given the 'lefties' an equally large majority.
Genocide beckons.
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... Back across the pond, analysis of the latest election results showed that eliminating the older age groups would not only have reversed the result but given the 'lefties' an equally large majority...
Are you lamenting that Corona arrived to the UK four years too late? ;)
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Are you lamenting that Corona arrived to the UK four years too late? ;)
Good grief! is it only four years?
That downer seems to have plagued my family and me for what seems a decade!
I don't know how the generations voted - once I would have believed the statistics, but these days, where the civil service honchos walk away in disgust... those transatlantic concepts of selective, invented reality are spreading across this poor old globe.
Isn't it remarkable how much more rapidly all things rotten spread than do all things good.
Was a time used-car salesmen got a bad rap; today, it's property developers in politics. Which is hardly surprising when one comes to think about it. Yuk.
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Yes...for some they are mild...thus much more dangerous for those that cannot handle the virus. It can spread like wildfire and slowly pick off the vulnerable, the one's with weakened immune systems.
This is no different from the seasonal flu outbreaks that take place every year. While there is a vaccine, it's always a guessing game in terms of what antigens should be in it. Some times such as in the case of H1N1, they don't get it quite right and there is more morbidity and mortality.
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This is no different from the seasonal flu outbreaks that take place every year. While there is a vaccine, it's always a guessing game in terms of what antigens should be in it. Some times such as in the case of H1N1, they don't get it quite right and there is more morbidity and mortality.
The difference is we know very little about this new virus. Will it go away in April like the regular flu or will it thrive? Why does it appear not to affect the young? How is it transmitted...and for how long is it active once transmitted?
We are seeing a much higher rate of death from this virus than a normal flu...that with the unknowns definitely should cause people unease.
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The WHO report, linked to above, offers some insight into the apparent transmission type.
You are right, there is a lot to learn about this new version.
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This is no different from the seasonal flu outbreaks that take place every year. While there is a vaccine, it's always a guessing game in terms of what antigens should be in it. Some times such as in the case of H1N1, they don't get it quite right and there is more morbidity and mortality.
Does that mean the vaccine cause more morbidity and mortality or that there was more because the drug was not as efficacious?
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Does that mean the vaccine cause more morbidity and mortality or that there was more because the drug was not as efficacious?
Vaccines certainly do not use more morbidity or mortality. What happens is that vaccines are prepared for a particular season having in mind the most likely strains of viruses for that year. It is a prediction. Sometimes there is a new strain the vaccine is not planned for, which makes the vaccine less efficacious. Though it is usually said that even if you get the new strain, your recovery should be easier than if you are not vaccinated.
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How would you feel if you were in that 1%? Just collateral damage?
After all the rich need to keep making their money...who cares about some casualties.
I think you didn't understand my comment; or probably didn't think about it. If there's NO CHANCE of stopping it, why not get it over with and try to save the economy, not for rich people, but so everybody can eat? With our just-in-time economy, we no longer have vast stores of products sitting in warehouses -- we use them almost as soon as they are manufactured or grown. (See the situation with the anti-viral masks, and ventilators; too late to make enough ventilators to help much, if there is a genuine pandemic.) The same is true of a lot of other manufactures we need to keep people alive. As I said in a different post, there are two big impacts here: the health and the economic, and the economic could be just as devastating to ordinary people as the sickness. Some of the possibilities being discussed are "furloughs" for workers, especially factory workers, which means being sent home without pay for two weeks to a month to try to slow the spread of the virus. How many people would be financially devastated if forced to go a month without pay? What do we do if the virus shows up heavily among farm workers in California, handling our food? THE CDC says we already see more than a million people sickened every year by salmonella, and COVID-19 could spread the same way. Do we not harvest those crops? We're already starting to see runs on selected products -- hand sanitizers are mostly sold out everywhere, our local coop no longer has dried beans or uncooked pasta, and if you go stand in a parking lot, you will see elderly women pushing carts loaded with toilet paper. (And TP shortages are being reported on news broadcasts. I can't exactly explain that, but it's true; perhaps the old ladies are TP speculators.) And serious runs -- really panicked buying -- hasn't yet started. It may never start, but anyone who went through the gasoline shortages can tell you how panic buying can screw up life.
However, there would be some serious downsides to simply giving up. One of them would probably be a higher peak of infections, which would mean larger crowds of truly sick at hospitals. By lowering the peak -- spreading the time line -- there'd be a better chance of more people getting quality health care in critical situations.
(I would add that I am one of the more likely casualties -- I'm 76.)
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This is no different from the seasonal flu outbreaks that take place every year. While there is a vaccine, it's always a guessing game in terms of what antigens should be in it. Some times such as in the case of H1N1, they don't get it quite right and there is more morbidity and mortality.
Some years ago I had an appointment at the doctor's, and as I was sitting there, a nurse walked in holding a spike, and she thought I was there for an old duffer's influenza jab. I said no, no, I'm here about something entirely else. To no avail: she laughed at me and said roll up you sleeve! This is a macho country, and not wishing to burden myself with a permanent loss of masculine face, I did as I was told and took the needle. Heysoos! I ended up with the worst dose of 'flu that I can remember!
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I think you didn't understand my comment;...
John, I think that was a reasonable angle, stripped of the usual moralizing.
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I think you didn't understand my comment; or probably didn't think about it. If there's NO CHANCE of stopping it, why not get it over with and try to save the economy, not for rich people, but so everybody can eat? With our just-in-time economy, we no longer have vast stores of products sitting in warehouses -- we use them almost as soon as they are manufactured or grown. (See the situation with the anti-viral masks, and ventilators; too late to make enough ventilators to help much, if there is a genuine pandemic.) The same is true of a lot of other manufactures we need to keep people alive. As I said in a different post, there are two big impacts here: the health and the economic, and the economic could be just as devastating to ordinary people as the sickness. Some of the possibilities being discussed are "furloughs" for workers, especially factory workers, which means being sent home without pay for two weeks to a month to try to slow the spread of the virus. How many people would be financially devastated if forced to go a month without pay? What do we do if the virus shows up heavily among farm workers in California, handling our food? THE CDC says we already see more than a million people sickened every year by salmonella, and COVID-19 could spread the same way. Do we not harvest those crops? We're already starting to see runs on selected products -- hand sanitizers are mostly sold out everywhere, our local coop no longer has dried beans or uncooked pasta, and if you go stand in a parking lot, you will see elderly women pushing carts loaded with toilet paper. (And TP shortages are being reported on news broadcasts. I can't exactly explain that, but it's true; perhaps the old ladies are TP speculators.) And serious runs -- really panicked buying -- hasn't yet started. It may never start, but anyone who went through the gasoline shortages can tell you how panic buying can screw up life.
However, there would be some serious downsides to simply giving up. One of them would probably be a higher peak of infections, which would mean larger crowds of truly sick at hospitals. By lowering the peak -- spreading the time line -- there'd be a better chance of more people getting quality health care in critical situations.
(I would add that I am one of the more likely casualties -- I'm 76.)
Just-in-time production is what will doubly impact the UK once deep Brexit kicks in: much of the economy depends upon it, and I'm told that a lot of medical stuff is made and imported from China, itself a huge victim of this plague that's sent to visit us.
Not a time to buy Italian sports car exotica.
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Does that mean the vaccine cause more morbidity and mortality or that there was more because the drug was not as efficacious?
I don't know what your question is here. Vaccines have very low rates of side effects, key one is Guillam-Barre syndrome. Anti-viral drugs are hard to make. The only ones that really work very well are the Hepatitis C drugs that can lead to a cure. The anti-flu drugs are not very good. Drugs against Ebola have not shown to work very well at all. Best approach is the vaccine route but that takes time as you want to make sure that it's safe as possible.
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I don't know what your question is here. Vaccines have very low rates of side effects, key one is Guillam-Barre syndrome. Anti-viral drugs are hard to make. The only ones that really work very well are the Hepatitis C drugs that can lead to a cure. The anti-flu drugs are not very good. Drugs against Ebola have not shown to work very well at all. Best approach is the vaccine route but that takes time as you want to make sure that it's safe as possible.
The flu drugs are not as good as they should be, perhaps, but I haven't gotten the flu since I started getting them annually 20 some years ago. Other people have different experiences. What I don't understand about them is that based on early indications (in Australia, I understand, where the flu season starts during our spring) a concoction of vaccines is put together to protect against dominant strains that year -- the predicted mostly likely strains. Sometimes, they get it wrong. But why not do all of them, and make two or more flu shots available? I'd certainly get both. On the other hand, only about half of Americans actually get flu shot, so maybe there's a cost-benefit calculation in there somewhere.
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The flu drugs are not as good as they should be, perhaps, but I haven't gotten the flu since I started getting them annually 20 some years ago...
I think we are talking here about different things. Vaccines you get before, so you don’t get the flu. The flu drugs are something you take after you get the flu, to alleviate the symptoms.
As they say, the flu would last the whole week without drugs. With drugs, it will be much shorter, only seven days.
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As they say, the flue would last the whole week without drugs. With drugs, it will be much shorter, only seven days.
Actually it's the flu which lasts about a week or two. Same for common cold.
Flue is something much more robust and longer lasting. Built from the right material, it can last over hundred years.
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Actually it's the flu which lasts about a week or two. Same for common cold.
Flue is something much more robust and longer lasting. Built from the right material, it can last over hundred years.
And help keep your bum warm in winter. And your lungs from killing you.
;-)
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I am sure Robert would love this one ;)
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Vaccines have very low rates of side effects, key one is Guillam-Barre syndrome.
Assuming you mean Guillain-Barré, the evidence that that post-infection autoimmune condition is related, other than temporally, to vaccination is slim to non-existent.
Jeremy
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The flu drugs are not as good as they should be, perhaps, but I haven't gotten the flu since I started getting them annually 20 some years ago. Other people have different experiences. What I don't understand about them is that based on early indications (in Australia, I understand, where the flu season starts during our spring) a concoction of vaccines is put together to protect against dominant strains that year -- the predicted mostly likely strains. Sometimes, they get it wrong. But why not do all of them, and make two or more flu shots available? I'd certainly get both. On the other hand, only about half of Americans actually get flu shot, so maybe there's a cost-benefit calculation in there somewhere.
Good question. Probably worth asking the CDC about. I'm sure it's partly a cost/benefit decision. There is probably limited capacity for vaccine testing, production (and delivery) and producing vaccines against strains that are not expected to be active that season might be pointless and take away from production and distribution of others. From a practical point of view, if it's difficult to get everyone to take one shot, I imagine that trying to educate the public about 2 vaccine versions would be a public health headache. Many of the people I know, who I would have expected to be more informed, still complain when they get colds despite having had a flu vaccine shot. The cold vs flu difference must have been explained in a million different places by now.
I did look at some pages of the CDC site and vaccine shots traditionally protected against 3 strains but that 4-strain versions are also now popular. I'm left with the impression that combining them into into one shot is not a trivial matter.
On a personal note, and as an aside, I also know some people who resent being encouraged by their government to take vaccines, some kind of "rebellion" against the "man". It's difficult for me to take this seriously considering the large number of people who buy illegal drugs manufactured by criminals.
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I clicked "Post" too quickly. I found this explanation of the vaccine production process by the NHS, https://www.nhs.uk/conditions/vaccinations/how-flu-vaccine-works/ (https://www.nhs.uk/conditions/vaccinations/how-flu-vaccine-works/), but it doesn't address why the vaccines are limited to a small number of strains.
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Assuming you mean Guillain-Barré, the evidence that that post-infection autoimmune condition is related, other than temporally, to vaccination is slim to non-existent.
Jeremy
Yes, my mistake on the spelling. I don't know what your latter point is. I said "very low" side effects in my post. VAERs database does show that G-B is very low but it's not non-existent. There were approximately 450 cases associated with the 1976 Swine Flu vaccine (I knew two individuals, both in biomedical research who were afflicted).
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Good question. Probably worth asking the CDC about. I'm sure it's partly a cost/benefit decision. There is probably limited capacity for vaccine testing, production (and delivery) and producing vaccines against strains that are not expected to be active that season might be pointless and take away from production and distribution of others. From a practical point of view, if it's difficult to get everyone to take one shot, I imagine that trying to educate the public about 2 vaccine versions would be a public health headache. Many of the people I know, who I would have expected to be more informed, still complain when they get colds despite having had a flu vaccine shot. The cold vs flu difference must have been explained in a million different places by now.
I did look at some pages of the CDC site and vaccine shots traditionally protected against 3 strains but that 4-strain versions are also now popular. I'm left with the impression that combining them into into one shot is not a trivial matter.
On a personal note, and as an aside, I also know some people who resent being encouraged by their government to take vaccines, some kind of "rebellion" against the "man". It's difficult for me to take this seriously considering the large number of people who buy illegal drugs manufactured by criminals.
A lot of Americans don;t trust their government. (High trust =8%) It seems better in Canada.
https://www.statista.com/chart/12634/where-trust-in-government-is-highest-and-lowest/
Members are Congress are trusted at about the same level as used car salesmen. 8%
https://www.statista.com/chart/12420/americas-most-and-least-trusted-professions/
Media seems better. 41%. But that's probably because we watch tainted news outlets who have the same beliefs we have so we agree with them. Of course those other outlets are the real liars.
https://www.statista.com/chart/5883/trust-in-mass-media/
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I clicked "Post" too quickly. I found this explanation of the vaccine production process by the NHS, https://www.nhs.uk/conditions/vaccinations/how-flu-vaccine-works/ (https://www.nhs.uk/conditions/vaccinations/how-flu-vaccine-works/), but it doesn't address why the vaccines are limited to a small number of strains.
The link is a good presentation. One of the key problems is that the vaccine manufacturing process is tedious and somewhat lengthy. It takes manufacturers several months from the time the strains are identified to when flu vaccine will be ready for use. With Corona virus there are some new approaches to designing the vaccine that have not been tried before. It's also not clear who easy some of these will be scaled up. There are only a small number of companies able to produce vaccines at scale: Sanofi, Merck, GSK, Pfizer. Pfizer mainly manufactures bacterial vaccines which are technologically different. Sanofi and GSK are the major flu vaccine manufacturers.
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The link is a good presentation. One of the key problems is that the vaccine manufacturing process is tedious and somewhat lengthy. It takes manufacturers several months from the time the strains are identified to when flu vaccine will be ready for use. With Corona virus there are some new approaches to designing the vaccine that have not been tried before. It's also not clear who easy some of these will be scaled up. There are only a small number of companies able to produce vaccines at scale: Sanofi, Merck, GSK, Pfizer. Pfizer mainly manufactures bacterial vaccines which are technologically different. Sanofi and GSK are the major flu vaccine manufacturers.
The disease will pass naturally this year before any vaccines are developed. Dr. Trump suggests this Spring. His guess is as good as anyone else's.
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The disease will pass naturally this year before any vaccines are developed. Dr. Trump suggests this Spring. His guess is as good as anyone else's.
Dr. Trump's predictions are usually overly optimistic.
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Dr. Trump's predictions are usually overly optimistic.
Let's hope he's right. I see this thing fizzing out in a couple of months in time for the democrat convention. :)
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Let's hope he's right. I see this thing fizzing out in a couple of months in time for the democrat convention. :)
You saw also Biden fizzing. Sometimes things take unexpected turns.
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You saw also Biden fizzing. Sometimes things take unexpected turns.
That's true. If I really knew how to predict, I'd be a rich man. :)
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That's true. If I really knew how to predict, I'd be a rich man. :)
You can say that again. Especially with the first item in this thread title.
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You can say that again. Especially with the first item in this thread title.
Unfortunately I always get it wrong selling low and buying high.
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Good question. Probably worth asking the CDC about. I'm sure it's partly a cost/benefit decision. There is probably limited capacity for vaccine testing, production (and delivery) and producing vaccines against strains that are not expected to be active that season might be pointless and take away from production and distribution of others. From a practical point of view, if it's difficult to get everyone to take one shot, I imagine that trying to educate the public about 2 vaccine versions would be a public health headache. Many of the people I know, who I would have expected to be more informed, still complain when they get colds despite having had a flu vaccine shot. The cold vs flu difference must have been explained in a million different places by now.
I did look at some pages of the CDC site and vaccine shots traditionally protected against 3 strains but that 4-strain versions are also now popular. I'm left with the impression that combining them into into one shot is not a trivial matter.
On a personal note, and as an aside, I also know some people who resent being encouraged by their government to take vaccines, some kind of "rebellion" against the "man". It's difficult for me to take this seriously considering the large number of people who buy illegal drugs manufactured by criminals.
But Robert, those friendly, encouraging suppliers are "my" Man, who is somebody other than "the" Man.
The magic lives in the pronoun. Or so I believe.
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But Robert, those friendly, encouraging suppliers are "my" Man, who is somebody other than "the" Man.
The magic lives in the pronoun. Or so I believe.
Semantics and crime, you might have a research topic there.
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I saw somewhere on the interweb this morning that Trump was advocating that people continue to go to work even if they contract the Covid-19 virus. (One example: https://crooksandliars.com/2020/03/trump-calls-hannity-tells-people-covid-19 (https://crooksandliars.com/2020/03/trump-calls-hannity-tells-people-covid-19)). I hope that's taken out of context or badly reported.
I might be able to see the point of maintaining a brave face for morale reasons, but this seems like bad advice. It's not even good advice for people with a common cold. Passing on diseases to co-workers is kind of spectacularly stupid, isn't it? Doesn't do much for productivity, I'm sure. Besides that, haven't I read somewhere that Trump is somewhat of a germaphobe. It would be interesting to see what he thinks of white house employees who show up to work in a contagious state.
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Semantics and crime, you might have a research topic there.
Or the next Netflix movie.
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I saw somewhere on the interweb this morning that Trump was advocating that people continue to go to work even if they contract the Covid-19 virus. (One example: https://crooksandliars.com/2020/03/trump-calls-hannity-tells-people-covid-19 (https://crooksandliars.com/2020/03/trump-calls-hannity-tells-people-covid-19)). I hope that's taken out of context or badly reported.
I might be able to see the point of maintaining a brave face for morale reasons, but this seems like bad advice. It's not even good advice for people with a common cold. Passing on diseases to co-workers is kind of spectacularly stupid, isn't it? Doesn't do much for productivity, I'm sure. Besides that, haven't I read somewhere that Trump is somewhat of a germaphobe. It would be interesting to see what he thinks of white house employees who show up to work in a contagious state.
Going to work with a common cold or flu is a time-honoured American tradition. That's what the employers expect.
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I was at my poker game last night and sneezed into my right hand. The other players made me go to the bathroom to wash my hands. But I won $9 by the end of the night so that just shows them. :)
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Did they shake your hand after your win? Or maybe you should have hugged them to show them your true feelings.
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To offset any investment losses at these precarious times, I'd recommend to sell your airline stocks and buy the 3M company.
3M has ramped up testing and production of single-use N95 respirator masks. The company is working overtime without any disruptions in production. That should be reflected positively in their next quarterly report.
Diversified manufacturer 3M Co <MMM.N> has avoided major supply chain disruptions from the coronavirus outbreak by sourcing materials for its protective face masks from regional suppliers instead of far-flung locations.
https://finance.yahoo.com/news/3m-taps-regional-suppliers-meet-154843443.html
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To offset any investment losses at these precarious times, I'd recommend to sell your airline stocks and buy the 3M company.
3M has ramped up testing and production of single-use N95 respirator masks. The company is working overtime without any disruptions in production. That should be reflected positively in their next quarterly report.
https://finance.yahoo.com/news/3m-taps-regional-suppliers-meet-154843443.html
I own 3M stock and have for years. The best performing stock in my portfolio is Clorox! It's the only one in positive territory this year, up 17% as of today.
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To offset any investment losses at these precarious times, I'd recommend to sell your airline stocks and buy the 3M company. 3M has ramped up testing and production of single-use N95 respirator masks.
Unfortunately, Gojo Industries (https://www.gojo.com/), the Ohio company that manufactures Purell hand sanitizer, is privately owned. The usually ubiquitous goop is sold out everywhere here in the States, even on Amazon―except for a few "Amazon Marketplace" suppliers who are offering small quantities at outrageous prices.
To date, however, both soap and water appear to be in plentiful supply. So there doesn't yet seem to be a good market play in the sudsy-water sector.
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Not sure if this is related in any way to fighting coronavirus, but it happened in northern Italy.
People living in a small village near Modena, in the northern region of Emilia-Romagna, got a surprise on Wednesday when they turned on their kitchen taps and got wine instead of water.
(https://www.thelocal.it/userdata/images/article/48680815f5a1a1294a455b3804959dde2eab3a7a6b2005e7cceafba58979b987.jpg)
https://www.thelocal.it/20200305/italian-village-residents-find-lambrusco-wine-coming-out-of-their-taps
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Not sure if this is related in any way to fighting coronavirus, but it happened in northern Italy.
(https://www.thelocal.it/userdata/images/article/48680815f5a1a1294a455b3804959dde2eab3a7a6b2005e7cceafba58979b987.jpg)
https://www.thelocal.it/20200305/italian-village-residents-find-lambrusco-wine-coming-out-of-their-taps
The Second Coming?
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Unfortunately, Gojo Industries (https://www.gojo.com/), the Ohio company that manufactures Purell hand sanitizer, is privately owned. The usually ubiquitous goop is sold out everywhere here in the States, even on Amazon―except for a few "Amazon Marketplace" suppliers who are offering small quantities at outrageous prices.
To date, however, both soap and water appear to be in plentiful supply. So there doesn't yet seem to be a good market play in the sudsy-water sector.
DIY
Here's a list of required ingredients to make your own hand sanitizer:
• 2/3 cup of rubbing alcohol
• 1/3 cup aloe vera gel
• 5-10 drops of essential oil (optional)
• Mixing bowl
• Spoon
• Funnel
• Two-ounce spray bottle or liquid soap container
• Masking tape and pen or marker for labeling the container (or adhesive labels)
Directions: Pour the alcohol and aloe vera in a bowl and stir until blended. Add several drops of essential oil and stir to help mask the smell of alcohol. Use the funnel to pour the eight ounce mixture into containers, then affix the strips of marked masking tape (or adhesive labels) to identify the bottles' contents.
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American government passes $8.3 billion Coronavirus legislation. More money down the tubes.
https://www.cnbc.com/2020/03/05/senate-passes-8point3-billion-coronavirus-bill-sending-it-to-trumps-desk.html
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Here's a list of required ingredients to make your own hand sanitizer:
• 2/3 cup of rubbing alcohol
• 1/3 cup aloe vera gel
• 5-10 drops of essential oil (optional) . . .
According to a newspaper article I read today, one may optionally use vodka (sic) in place of the rubbing alcohol.
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According to a newspaper article I read today, one may optionally use vodka (sic) in place of the rubbing alcohol.
Best used internally ;)
Then again, in Russia, they use rubbing alcohol instead of vodka - internally too :)
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According to a newspaper article I read today, one may optionally use vodka (sic) in place of the rubbing alcohol.
Buy what ever is cheaper!!! However, you need to have the alcohol content in the sanitizer needs to be a least 60%. Alcohol proof is twice the % of alcohol by volume and most vodkas are 80 proof, only 40% by volume so it's not a good replacement here. You can get rubbing alcohol that's 91 or 99% by volume which means that recipe dilution gets you the 60% by volume alcohol. I always knew my PhD in chemistry would come in handy!
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Buy what ever is cheaper!!! However, you need to have the alcohol content in the sanitizer needs to be a least 60%. Alcohol proof is twice the % of alcohol by volume and most vodkas are 80 proof, only 40% by volume so it's not a good replacement here. You can get rubbing alcohol that's 91 or 99% by volume which means that recipe dilution gets you the 60% by volume alcohol. I always knew my PhD in chemistry would come in handy!
Red Heart Rum 151 proof. I think Smirnoff makes rum at that proof also. Have a double and you won't notice you're sick. Of course if you use it to clean your hands, don;t get stopped by the cops while you;re driving. :)
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Red Heart Rum 151 proof.
That's certainly nothing to sneeze at!
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Soap and water works fine, just less convenient and you have to be more thorough.
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Buy what ever is cheaper!!! However, you need to have the alcohol content in the sanitizer needs to be a least 60%. Alcohol proof is twice the % of alcohol by volume and most vodkas are 80 proof, only 40% by volume so it's not a good replacement here. You can get rubbing alcohol that's 91 or 99% by volume which means that recipe dilution gets you the 60% by volume alcohol. I always knew my PhD in chemistry would come in handy!
I certainly can in Spain at the chemist's, but I think that in Britain you can't because it would get used by alcoholics.
I use it for cuts and scratches and to clean filters. (Just a tiny dab on the tissue.)
Rob
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Red Heart Rum 151 proof. I think Smirnoff makes rum at that proof also. Have a double and you won't notice you're sick. Of course if you use it to clean your hands, don;t get stopped by the cops while you;re driving. :)
My first summer job after my freshman year was in a Polynesian restaurant. I was in charge of checking all the deliveries and making sure the three bars were stocked with all their needs. I became friendly with some of the cocktail waitresses and was told by one of them that if they suspected a big tipper they would ask the bartender to make the Mai Tais or Singapore Slings with 151 proof rum so that the patron would get inebriated faster and hence be more generous with the tip.
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... the cocktail waitresses and was told by one of them that if they suspected a big tipper they would ask the bartender to make the Mai Tais or Singapore Slings with 151 proof rum so that the patron would get inebriated faster and hence be more generous with the tip.
I knew there must be a secret to AOC success ;)
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Going to work with a common cold or flu is a time-honoured American tradition. That's what the employers expect.
Some traditions are just stupid. Go sick with a relatively high contagious disease so that everybody goes down.
I half watched the news and I see the administration still didn't get their wake up call and try to make this about politics and how they were not wrong and their response is the best possible, etc. This is just irresponsible, they need to stop minimizing this and try to go in damage control; it's not their fault it got here but it will be their fault if they focus on proving it's not their fault instead of dealing with it.
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It's also baffling that CDC wasted a whole month before they decided to make the test kits.
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I knew there must be a secret to AOC success ;)
I would not be surprised!!!
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An example of better handling the coronavirus epidemic: https://www.inkstonenews.com/health/south-koreas-aggressive-coronavirus-testing-gives-clues-fatality-rate/article/3073945
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An example of better handling the coronavirus epidemic: https://www.inkstonenews.com/health/south-koreas-aggressive-coronavirus-testing-gives-clues-fatality-rate/article/3073945
Better than who? How do you know? The virus hit there first. They have more cases than any other country except China. So naturally they're working hard. And longer.
Anyway, here are some statistics by country.
https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/
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It's about the initial approach and the commitment to get a control on the situation.
Here we started with "it's a hoax perpetrated by democrats", "it's just a cold", "don't worry, we have the best team ever", and so on.
Because of trying to minimize the situation (probably because the response has been mostly politic or controlled by politic) we are very far behind where we should be in testing capacity and concrete plans.
The right thing was to acknowledge it will spread and try to control that part. Burying your head in the sand will do nothing.
I'm quite pissed off this administration because they tried to make it about them first. And god forbid that the people who know what they talk about say something that goes against the supreme leader, while some democrats were trying to spin this for political gain.
This will affect everybody and that's why the control should have been left to apolitical institutions, as it is clear the political parts cannot come together for the greater good.
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Political leaders are always positive about negative things giving hope to the people. Of course, with Trump, the press turns it into a negative. Bush gave the same positive cheers when he met construction workers in NYC right after 9-11 talking to the with a bullhorn. No one thought he was ignoring the terrorist problem. It's just politics.
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Political leaders are always positive about negative things giving hope to the people. Of course, with Trump, the press turns it into a negative. Bush gave the same positive cheers when he met construction workers in NYC right after 9-11 talking to the with a bullhorn. No one thought he was ignoring the terrorist problem. It's just politics.
It shouldn't, not for this.
Here is an article with several good points, even if not all. I know the "Trump can do no wrong" side hates NYT but try to look beyond to what the content is, it hits many of issues.
https://www.nytimes.com/2020/03/06/opinion/trump-coronavirus-us.html
The first picture is of some scientists showing Trump a model of coronavirus and how it works; I fail to see that as anything more than useless publicity. First, I doubt he'll understand (most people won't) and second, who cares? His job should be to implement policies recommended by who deal with this on a daily basis, and get everybody on board with the implementation, not an initiation in virology.
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It shouldn't, not for this.
Here is an article with several good points, even if not all. I know the "Trump can do no wrong" side hates NYT but try to look beyond to what the content is, it hits many of issues.
https://www.nytimes.com/2020/03/06/opinion/trump-coronavirus-us.html
The first picture is of some scientists showing Trump a model of coronavirus and how it works; I fail to see that as anything more than useless publicity. First, I doubt he'll understand (most people won't) and second, who cares? His job should be to implement policies recommended by who deal with this on a daily basis, and get everybody on board with the implementation, not an initiation in virology.
I think you're wrong. Leaders of countries reassure the public when bad things happen. When a president visits a disaster area caused by a tornado or hurricane, no one is expecting him to operate a backhoe to clear the debris or suddenly understand how and why the area got flooded. He's lending his political and executive authority to reassure the public that the government he's running is doing its job to help them and to protect them and will continue to help in the future. Every leader does that including Obama, Bush, and presidents before them.
Knocking Trump for visiting a laboratory is just a cheap shot.
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Panic peddlers. Just like with climate change.
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You are both in denial. Trump was not optimistic after a disaster, but before, to stupidly save face although it wasn't his fault (the barking of the democrats didn't help either).
Things will get worse and we are not ready. The hospitals won't be able to cope. You can come back to what I'm saying now when all is said and done.
I just saw some testing requirements for COVID-19, because of fear that it will be aerosolized when testing the protective equipment needs to be quite different and you have to do it in a negative pressure room; I'll let you figure it out how many of these rooms the hospitals have. And this is just one example.
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The first picture is of some scientists showing Trump a model of coronavirus and how it works; I fail to see that as anything more than useless publicity. . . . His job should be to implement policies recommended by who deal with this on a daily basis, and get everybody on board with the implementation, not an initiation in virology.
I think you're wrong. Leaders of countries reassure the public when bad things happen. . . . He's lending his political and executive authority to reassure the public that the government he's running is doing its job to help them and to protect them and will continue to help in the future.
Clearly the response to an international medical emergency must be determined by the experts. Various U.S. federal agencies―the Departments of Health and Human Services (the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention), Homeland Security (the Federal Emergency Management Agency), and Veterans Affairs (Veterans Health Administration, which operates hospitals for military veterans)―employ career government experts who, I suspect, are as capable as any in the world of responding to the public health threat associated with a new virus such as this one and they, in turn, have access to an enormous nationwide medical infrastructure as well as the very large number of private practitioners who inevitably will provide the treatment and report the outcomes of the vast majority of patients.
Having said that, coordination of a medical (or other) national emergency by a politically-designated White House representative can be useful, if that individual has sufficient experience at the federal level to know where to find the relevant agency resources―it's not always obvious to even the experts in various agencies what resources are available elsewhere in the government―and the clout to overcome bureaucratic obstacles to exploiting them. Ron Klain, the chief-of-staff to former Vice President Joe Biden, performed this function when the Obama Administration was responding to the ebola virus, despite having no prior experience in public health, and by the time his assignment ended my impression is that his contribution was considered quite successful by the nonpartisan career experts.
Vice President Pence is probably less qualified than Klain for this kind of role, but in an Administration which is notably lacking in political appointees with experience at the federal level he probably is doing as well as any of the other possible candidates. And, despite President Trump's sometimes preposterous and always politically-motivated comments about the federal response, Pence seems to be doing a reasonable job of explaining the expert opinion to the extent that he is able to understand it. Whether he is able to use his influence to facilitate the federal response is anybody's guess.
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Clearly the response to an international medical emergency must be determined by the experts. Various U.S. federal agencies―the Departments of Health and Human Services (the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention), Homeland Security (the Federal Emergency Management Agency), and Veterans Affairs (Veterans Health Administration, which operates hospitals for military veterans)―employ career government experts who, I suspect, are as capable as any in the world of responding to the public health threat associated with a new virus such as this one and they, in turn, have access to an enormous nationwide medical infrastructure as well as the very large number of private practitioners who inevitably will provide the treatment and report the outcomes of the vast majority of patients.
Having said that, coordination of a medical (or other) national emergency by a politically-designated White House representative can be useful, if that individual has sufficient experience at the federal level to know where to find the relevant agency resources―it's not always obvious to even the experts in various agencies what resources are available elsewhere in the government―and the clout to overcome bureaucratic obstacles to exploiting them. Ron Klain, the chief-of-staff to former Vice President Joe Biden, performed this function when the Obama Administration was responding to the ebola virus, despite having no prior experience in public health, and by the time his assignment ended my impression is that his contribution was considered quite successful by the nonpartisan career experts.
Vice President Pence is probably less qualified than Klain for this kind of role, but in an Administration which is notably lacking in political appointees with experience at the federal level he probably is doing as well as any of the other possible candidates. And, despite President Trump's sometimes preposterous and always politically-motivated comments about the federal response, Pence seems to be doing a reasonable job of explaining the expert opinion to the extent that he is able to understand it. Whether he is able to use his influence to facilitate the federal response is anybody's guess.
I think they are starting to realize what's ahead and taking some appropriate steps. But they were too slow in the beginning and now that time is not coming back. IF we are lucky this will reach the level of the flu (in number of persons infected) and although the mortality will be higher than the flu and the resources will be far stretched we might be able to cope, maybe. Beyond that I doubt it.
You also have to take into account the american population is different; although I have no hard data in hand right now I suspect our elder have more comorbidities than the average international citizen, therefore even more vulnerable to the virus.
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Knocking Trump for visiting a laboratory is just a cheap shot.
I have plenty, this is nothing. That's wasted time right there. He should visit the epidemiology and disaster management centers.
Maybe I'm biased by prior experiences, maybe other leaders do it too, but that doesn't make it right.
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Knocking Trump for visiting a laboratory is just a cheap shot.
I read the article linked to in the quote you were responding to and didn't see anything critical of Trump visiting a laboratory.
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although I have no hard data in hand right now I suspect our elder have more comorbidities than the average international citizen, therefore even more vulnerable to the virus.
I doubt that; a huge portion of the world's population is in places like China, India, Indonesia and Africa, where people indulge in habits that are seriously debilitating -- like smoking. India, China and Indonesia lead the world in smoking; more than 50% of Chinese males smoke. Only about 14 percent of American adults smoke. This is critical because it directly involves the lungs. The biggest problem in the US is obesity, and I'm not sure that the virus would attack overweight people much harder than it would others. The virus also seems to more seriously affect older people (as you note) and I think older people in these large but relatively poor countries have been through much harder times in their lives than the older American population. I was born in 1944 and by that time, there was decent medical treatment here, and good nutrition almost everywhere. I was not born into wealth, but I never went hungry or without medical care. I'm not sure you could say that about people who have gone through the upheavals we've had in China, India, Indonesia and many African countries.
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I doubt that; a huge portion of the world's population is in places like China, India, Indonesia and Africa, where people indulge in habits that are seriously debilitating -- like smoking. India, China and Indonesia lead the world in smoking; more than 50% of Chinese males smoke. Only about 14 percent of American adults smoke. This is critical because it directly involves the lungs. The biggest problem in the US is obesity, and I'm not sure that the virus would attack overweight people much harder than it would others. The virus also seems to more seriously affect older people (as you note) and I think older people in these large but relatively poor countries have been through much harder times in their lives than the older American population. I was born in 1944 and by that time, there was decent medical treatment here, and good nutrition almost everywhere. I was not born into wealth, but I never went hungry or without medical care. I'm not sure you could say that about people who have gone through the upheavals we've had in China, India, Indonesia and many African countries.
Those people die younger than here, they don't live to have that many medical problems.
Or in other words, the older patients with multiple comorbidities would be dead in other parts of the world.
PS. I will admit I'm speculating on this, as I said I don't have hard data
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Clearly the response to an international medical emergency must be determined by the experts. Various U.S. federal agencies―the Departments of Health and Human Services (the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention), Homeland Security (the Federal Emergency Management Agency), and Veterans Affairs (Veterans Health Administration, which operates hospitals for military veterans)―employ career government experts who, I suspect, are as capable as any in the world of responding to the public health threat associated with a new virus such as this one and they, in turn, have access to an enormous nationwide medical infrastructure as well as the very large number of private practitioners who inevitably will provide the treatment and report the outcomes of the vast majority of patients.
Having said that, coordination of a medical (or other) national emergency by a politically-designated White House representative can be useful, if that individual has sufficient experience at the federal level to know where to find the relevant agency resources―it's not always obvious to even the experts in various agencies what resources are available elsewhere in the government―and the clout to overcome bureaucratic obstacles to exploiting them. Ron Klain, the chief-of-staff to former Vice President Joe Biden, performed this function when the Obama Administration was responding to the ebola virus, despite having no prior experience in public health, and by the time his assignment ended my impression is that his contribution was considered quite successful by the nonpartisan career experts.
Vice President Pence is probably less qualified than Klain for this kind of role, but in an Administration which is notably lacking in political appointees with experience at the federal level he probably is doing as well as any of the other possible candidates. And, despite President Trump's sometimes preposterous and always politically-motivated comments about the federal response, Pence seems to be doing a reasonable job of explaining the expert opinion to the extent that he is able to understand it. Whether he is able to use his influence to facilitate the federal response is anybody's guess.
Regardless how it turns out, Democrats will say the administration failed terribly and the Republicans will say the administration worked a miracle. My own feeling about government in general is that it's inefficient, disorganized, costly, slow, and wasteful. Frankly, your best bet is to keep your fingers crossed and just hope for the best. Luck will probably be a better determinate of how things will turn out.
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Panic peddlers. Just like with climate change.
Slobodan, you forgot the ;-) which puts your post in grave danger of being taken seriously.
Rob
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Slobodan, you forgot the ;-) which puts your post in grave danger of being taken seriously.
I was dead serious. Ok, maybe the wrong choice of words. Still alive. And washing my hands.
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I was dead serious. Ok, maybe the wrong choice of words. Still alive. And washing my hands.
Keep on washing them; even Pontius Pilate kept on doing that.
;-)
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I'm quite pissed off this administration because they tried to make it about them first. And god forbid that the people who know what they talk about say something that goes against the supreme leader, while some democrats were trying to spin this for political gain.
I watch the daily briefings of the White House Task Force that is led by Vice President Pence. Almost every briefing starts with how President Trump has made things better. I understand why Pence has to say this (IMO, I think he gets dropped from the ticket in favor of Nikki Haley) but it's a total joke. If the President wants to take credit for these things he also has to take major blame for the huge screw up by CDC in terms of lack of test kits. The point is that neither of these are attributable to Trump, though the case can be made that the Administration erred in getting rid of the Task Force on pandemic diseases that Obama created.
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I just saw some testing requirements for COVID-19, because of fear that it will be aerosolized when testing the protective equipment needs to be quite different and you have to do it in a negative pressure room; I'll let you figure it out how many of these rooms the hospitals have. And this is just one example.
????????????????????????? The test is a RT-PCR test done on nasal or throat swabs. Once the swab is taken there is no chance of aerosolation at all.
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I doubt that; a huge portion of the world's population is in places like China, India, Indonesia and Africa, where people indulge in habits that are seriously debilitating -- like smoking. India, China and Indonesia lead the world in smoking; more than 50% of Chinese males smoke. Only about 14 percent of American adults smoke. This is critical because it directly involves the lungs.
This is why I refuse to panic (other than increasing hand washing). Wide spread testing and routine epidemiology will answer so many outstanding questions including the linkage to smoking and coronavirus infection. Even in developing countries the number of women smokers is much lower than men. I don't recall if the Chinese data broke things out by sex.
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????????????????????????? The test is a RT-PCR test done on nasal or throat swabs. Once the swab is taken there is no chance of aerosolation at all.
I happen to know more about this than you assume.
These are the internal guidelines of a very large health system. It's valid mostly for procedures that can produce aerosols (intubation/extubation, bronchoscopies, suctioning,etc) but I think they are concerned that even the regular swabs can lead to it, when you do it, therefore the requirements for N95 and other protective equipment and negative pressure rooms. I suspect the negative pressure rooms for swabs are overkill but these are the current guidelines.
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Trump reassures the nation:
“It came out of China, I heard about it, and we made a good move: We closed it down. We stopped it.”
Meanwhile, in other news, nearly 70 new cases were reported on Thursday.
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Public health official explaining why you shouldn't touch your face. See anything wrong with this? (14 second video). This is why I don't trust government.
https://twitter.com/i/status/1235252608845197314
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Public health official explaining why you shouldn't touch your face. See anything wrong with this? (14 second video). This is why I don't trust government.
https://twitter.com/i/status/1235252608845197314
Also not your genitals. Especially after handling hot chili peppers.
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Also not your genitals. Especially after handling hot chili peppers.
I've never had the pleasure. :)
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Trump reassures the nation:
“It came out of China, I heard about it, and we made a good move: We closed it down. We stopped it.”
Meanwhile, in other news, nearly 70 new cases were reported on Thursday.
That is the public psychology that scares the shit out of the sane part of the world: how can you either trust or believe in such a shyster? Lie often enough, open your mouth often enough only to allow your belly to rumble, and very soon all credibility is lost for ever. Very soon happened long ago.
And you guys appear stuck with it.
Glod bless America - she needs it.
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Trump reassures the nation:
“It came out of China, I heard about it, and we made a good move: We closed it down. We stopped it.”
Meanwhile, in other news, nearly 70 new cases were reported on Thursday.
Please note that these 70 new cases did not occur until after Trump appointed Pence as head of the coronavirus task force, so they are not Trump's fault. Heads up Mike, there's a bus oncoming.
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Please note that these 70 new cases did not occur until after Trump appointed Pence as head of the coronavirus task force, so they are not Trump's fault.
Did they use holy water?
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I happen to know more about this than you assume.
These are the internal guidelines of a very large health system. It's valid mostly for procedures that can produce aerosols (intubation/extubation, bronchoscopies, suctioning,etc) but I think they are concerned that even the regular swabs can lead to it, when you do it, therefore the requirements for N95 and other protective equipment and negative pressure rooms. I suspect the negative pressure rooms for swabs are overkill but these are the current guidelines.
Excellent. I will now exit this discussion and leave it in your capable hands to cover all the biomedical issues. I've had quite enough.
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That is the public psychology that scares the shit our of the sane part of the world: ]how can you either trust or believe in such a shyster? Lie often enough, open your mouth often enough only to allow your belly to rumble, and very soon all credibility is lost for ever. Very soon happened long ago.
And you guys appear stuck with it.
Glod bless America - she needs it.
Trump by name, trump by nature.
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Public health official explaining why you shouldn't touch your face. See anything wrong with this? (14 second video). This is why I don't trust government.
https://twitter.com/i/status/1235252608845197314
Are you familiar with the saying: do what the priest tells you to do, not what the priest does? :D
Excellent. I will now exit this discussion and leave it in your capable hands to cover all the biomedical issues. I've had quite enough.
Oh, please, since the beginning you started superior and behaved as if I'm not worthy for the level of the talk. I don't want to go in a pissing match and that's why I'm not advertising my credentials but maybe you should consider you are not the only one that has and idea of what he is talking and give them the benefit of doubt.
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A nice article using easy to understand terminology that goes over different ways this could go: https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.bloomberg.com/amp/opinion/articles/2020-03-05/how-bad-is-the-coronavirus-let-s-compare-with-sars-ebola-flu
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Please note that these 70 new cases did not occur until after Trump appointed Pence as head of the coronavirus task force, so they are not Trump's fault. Heads up Mike, there's a bus oncoming.
70 cases of coronavirus????? There were 45 million estimated cases of influenza (flu) in the US in 2017-2018 season with 44,000 to 95,000 deaths. No one blinked. Are we overblowing this thing for US presidential election political reasons?
https://www.cdc.gov/flu/about/burden/2017-2018.htm#table1
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Last year's flu season 2018-2019 was a little better.
Only 36 million cases and 26,000 - 53,000 deaths.
https://www.cdc.gov/flu/about/burden/2018-2019.html
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70 cases of coronavirus????? There were 45 million estimated cases of influenza (flu) in the US in 2017-2018 season with 44,000 to 95,000 deaths. No one blinked. Are we overblowing this thing for US presidential election political reasons?
https://www.cdc.gov/flu/about/burden/2017-2018.htm#table1
If the mortality is 10-20 times bigger, not really.
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70 cases of coronavirus????? There were 45 million estimated cases of influenza (flu) in the US in 2017-2018 season with 44,000 to 95,000 deaths. No one blinked. Are we overblowing this thing for US presidential election political reasons?
https://www.cdc.gov/flu/about/burden/2017-2018.htm#table1
If you don't test ( bury head in sand ) then you really don't know.
Also...this is a world problem...not just a USA issue. Why are we even discussing this in the context of some made for TV election.
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Also...this is a world problem...not just a USA issue. Why are we even discussing this in the context of some made for TV election.
Luckily, only some people are.
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If the mortality is 10-20 times bigger, not really.
Only 90,000 cases of Coronavirus worldwide, 90% in China, including 95% of the deaths. I'm not saying it isn't serious. But compared to the common flu with 54 million cases and 50,000 + or - deaths, are we over-rating it? NO one was panicked by the flu. Yet , there seems to be a kind of psychological epidemic where people I know, including me, have reacted to this thing with real panic. The numbers don't' equate to the concern.
Quote from linked article:
As of March 2, a total of 88,913 cases of COVID-19 have been reported to the World Health Organization (WHO) - and 90% of those are in China, mostly in one province.
In China, a total of 2,912 people have died, whereas outside China, there have been 127 deaths, among 8,739 cases in 61 countries.
More than 130 countries haven't detected a case yet.
https://www.weforum.org/agenda/2020/01/coronavirus-flu-healthcare-symptoms/
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Just a clarification. The flu numbers in my last post are only for the USA. The Coronavirus are the worldwide numbers making it even less of a concern.
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The rest of the world is just getting going with outbreaks. Iran, Italy, and Korea are in the throes. Others to follow shortly.
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The rest of the world is just getting going with outbreaks. Iran, Italy, and Korea are in the throes. Others to follow shortly.
Exactly! Although the whole virus thing seems like old news, it is really just beginning, and expanding at alarmingly fast rate and in all corners of the world.
At this rate, it won't take long to reach a million cases outside of China..
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Exactly! Although the whole virus thing seems like old news, it is really just beginning, and expanding at alarmingly fast rate and in all corners of the world.
At this rate, it won't take long to reach a million cases outside of China..
And some will still imagine it's just a stunt to hoof out Trump. What a sense of proportion and values!
Oy vey; long live the crazies. May their condition protect them.
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Just look how the left is gleeful about the spread!
Don’t worry, guys, spring is here and summer is coming, so this coup attempt is done. You better come up with another deadly strain in October, when the new flu seasons starts and just in time for the election.
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Just look how the left is gleeful about the spread!
Don’t worry, guys, spring is here and summer is coming, so this coup attempt is done. You better come up with another deadly strain in October, when the new flu seasons starts and just in time for the election.
So you think this epidemics is a coup attempt by democrats? Because that's what you are saying and I'm curious if that's what you meant.
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So you think this epidemics is a coup attempt by democrats? Because that's what you are saying and I'm curious if that's what you meant.
Some may be suspecting Russians interfering with 2020 elections. They timed it just right.
Also, there is no evidence that the virus will die in warmer weather.
“One extreme scenario is that it will burn itself out sometime in the summer,” says Hunter. “The other extreme scenario is that it will reduce in the summer but it will come back again in the winter and become what we call endemic, in that it will spread pretty much everywhere.” However, if it is less infectious in warmer conditions, there is a greater chance of it spreading in the southern hemisphere as conditions there cool.
https://www.newscientist.com/article/2233249-will-the-covid-19-coronavirus-outbreak-die-out-in-the-summers-heat/
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Just look how the left is gleeful about the spread!
Don’t worry, guys, spring is here and summer is coming, so this coup attempt is done. You better come up with another deadly strain in October, when the new flu seasons starts and just in time for the election.
The left gleeful? How can you say that?
If this is meant as humour, it isn't working. It comes across as madness or, perhaps, side-effects of vodka which, as with absinthe, leads to that. There is artistic proof of such!
Sadly, as artist, you are susceptible.
:-)
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So you think this epidemics is a coup attempt by democrats?...
You are smarter than that. Political exploitation of the epidemics, not the epidemics itself, is the coup attempt. Figuratively speaking, of course.
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The left gleeful? How can you say that?..
Easily. You guys are hoping this will result not in 60,000 deaths, which is a typical seasonal flu score, but in 100x more - 6 million. Just read the doom and gloom peddling in this thread. And blaming it on Trump has already started with gusto.
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Easily. You guys are hoping this will result not in 60,000 deaths, which is a typical seasonal flu score, but in 100x more - 6 million. Just read the doom and gloom peddling in this thread. And blaming it on Trump has already started with gusto.
This is borderline obsessive. You're on the verge of demolishing your own arguments by the fact of how far out on the fringe they are. As I've suggested before, switch to decaf.
Especially since everything you fantasize about the "left" is 10-fold true of Trumpeteers. I mean, be serious, how can you be the President, be in "power" in the senate and Supreme Court and still claim to be victims of the "biased" media and the "deep state". Please rework your memes, they're getting staler by the minute. It's nearly satire at this point.
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This is borderline obsessive. You're on the verge of demolishing your own arguments by the fact of how far out on the fringe they are. As I've suggested before, switch to decaf.
Especially since everything you fantasize about the "left" is 10-fold true of Trumpeteers. I mean, be serious, how can you be the President, be in "power" in the senate and Supreme Court and still claim to be victims of the "biased" media and the "deep state". Please rework your memes, they're getting staler by the minute. It's nearly satire at this point.
So your argument is not that there isn't a biased media and "deep state". Just that you think it's balanced by a powerful president. That a biased media is justified, one that lies and distorts. That's an interesting comparison you make.
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You are smarter than that. Political exploitation of the epidemics, not the epidemics itself, is the coup attempt. Figuratively speaking, of course.
You should say it as such, these days many things can be interpreted.
That the democrats are trying to gain it’s bad, that the republicans are trying to minimize this because it’s political and it’s against Trump it’s no better.
Italy just closed some of its northern regions. Do you think they did this because they are trying to bring Trump down or to help the democrats?
It might not get as bad as I fear but only if you take action and don’t minimize the danger. It’s not just about total numbers, but also those numbers over a very short period of time. Not kept in check it will overwhelm the medical system. If this happens people will die from other treatable conditions too.
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When the number of dead passes 60,000, I’ll start to worry.
That doesn’t meant (since you asked me to dumb down my statements) that in the meantime we should do nothing. Reasonable precautionary measures. Tests kits should be produced, distributed, and used. Contingency plans dusted off, quarantine areas set up. But I assume all this is in motion already. And it is not Pence or Trump job to do it, but CDC. So, if it hasn’t been done early enough, blame the experts, not politicians.
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This circulates on the Internet. I don’t know how authentic or accurate it is.
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Italy just closed some of its northern regions. Do you think they did this because they are trying to bring Trump down or to help the democrats?
It might not get as bad as I fear but only if you take action and don’t minimize the danger. It’s not just about total numbers, but also those numbers over a very short period of time. Not kept in check it will overwhelm the medical system. If this happens people will die from other treatable conditions too.
This is a very valid and real point. But obviously not obvious to some.
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When the number of dead passes 60,000, I’ll start to worry.
That doesn’t meant (since you asked me to dumb down my statements) that in the meantime we should do nothing. Reasonable precautionary measures. Tests kits should be produced, distributed, and used. Contingency plans dusted off, quarantine areas set up. But I assume all this is in motion already. And it is not Pence or Trump job to do it, but CDC. So, if it hasn’t been done early enough, blame the experts, not politicians.
The test kits should have been produced already in January. It would have been a less expensive but also much more effective than then now.
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When the number of dead passes 60,000, I’ll start to worry.
By then it will be much more difficult to handle it.
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The test kits should have been produced already in January. It would have been a less expensive but also much more effective than then now.
Again, whose fault is that? Experts’ or politicians’?
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I've made no secret of my disdain for Trump. I think he is the scion and now leader of an organized crime family, that he suffers from at least one serious mental illness that endangers all of us (narcissistic personality disorder) that he is a buffoon, he cheats at golf, and has bad taste. But I don't think he's totally to blame for the mishandling of the Covid-19 epidemic. No President can really run the US government, although Trump has clearly proven that one really bad President can damage it. Trump has obviously been poorly supported by the medical establishment. Epidemiologists should have been screaming to the media instead of mumbling about it in papers and conferences, ever since it first began to spread in China. I'm an avid consumer of the media (an ex-reporter) and I really didn't hear much from those guys until a month or so ago. The head of Health and Human Services, who knew how bad this was going to get back in early January, first delegated his chief of staff to inform somebody on the National Security Council about it -- in other words, dump it into the bureaucracy where it takes weeks for anything to trickle out. He then waited even longer before he even talked to Trump directly (all part of a WAPO story.) The guy should have been screaming in Trump's ear the next day, after he learned about the China problem, and other advisors should have pushed Trump hard to get out in front of it. Instead, they appeared to think they only had a political problem, and let the real problem, the disease itself, boil up from underneath. If Trump in mid-Janary had gone out front and said, "We may have a problem not of our devising, but a problem nevertheless, and we have to do everything we can to protect ourselves, and I'm appointing the VP to manage the problem day by day," then everybody now would think he was actually doing a great job. Instead, he got a lot of bad advice and has spent the last two months stepping on his own dick, and it's almost like he's being blamed for the disease, rather than just being blamed for being his usual self (an inept bumbling fool.) What he and his advisors have blown here is the possibility that he might look like a true leader in a crisis that everybody could understand that he couldn't prevent. But he's *still* insisting that it's not going to be that bad, and he's exacerbating the inept bumbling fool judgment. To say it in a few words: he has been badly served by his underlings. Some of us thought that might happen in a true crisis, and now it has.
And now he has two crises to manage. The oil market just went in the toilet, and that by itself could drag us into a recession. If we had a President who wasn't an inept bumbling fool, he might be able to get with OPEC and the Russians, bang some heads together, and get a floor under oil prices -- some kind of agreement to run at least through the easing of the COVID-19 panic. But I've got the feeling we're going to see him actually tap-dancing on his dick, not just stepping on it.
My only relief comes from the fact that Trump scared me so badly that over the past few years I shifted most of my investments into bonds, which have been doing quite nicely lately -- prices for mine are going up as yields fall through the floor -- and that sometime soon, I'm going to liquidate the bonds and stick a bundle of cash into Exxon-Mobil. At Friday's prices, which are almost sure to drop tomorrow, Exxon-Mobil's dividend yield is 7.3%, or $73,000 annually for every million you stick in. And if the stock goes back to the price it was at just a couple of months ago (and it will) you'll make 30% on the stock, as well. If I die from COVID-19 because of Trump's bumbling, at least I'll go with a smile on my face.
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The test kits should have been produced already in January. It would have been a less expensive but also much more effective than then now.
What is Canada doing that is better?
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So your argument is not that there isn't a biased media and "deep state". Just that you think it's balanced by a powerful president. That a biased media is justified, one that lies and distorts. That's an interesting comparison you make.
Fake news...fake news... But what about Fox?
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By then it will be much more difficult to handle it.
Did you read the second paragraph from the post you quoted just the first sentence? Where I said the exact opposite from what you are implying in your post above.
When the number of dead passes 60,000, I’ll start to worry.
That doesn’t meant (since you asked me to dumb down my statements) that in the meantime we should do nothing. Reasonable precautionary measures. Tests kits should be produced, distributed, and used. Contingency plans dusted off, quarantine areas set up. But I assume all this is in motion already. And it is not Pence or Trump job to do it, but CDC. So, if it hasn’t been done early enough, blame the experts, not politicians.
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I've made no secret of my disdain for Trump. I think he is the scion and now leader of an organized crime family, that he suffers from at least one serious mental illness that endangers all of us (narcissistic personality disorder) that he is a buffoon, he cheats at golf, and has bad taste. But I don't think he's totally to blame for the mishandling of the Covid-19 epidemic. No President can really run the US government, although Trump has clearly proven that one really bad President can damage it. Trump has obviously been poorly supported by the medical establishment. Epidemiologists should have been screaming to the media instead of mumbling about it in papers and conferences, ever since it first began to spread in China. I'm an avid consumer of the media (an ex-reporter) and I really didn't hear much from those guys until a month or so ago. The head of Health and Human Services, who knew how bad this was going to get back in early January, first delegated his chief of staff to inform somebody on the National Security Council about it -- in other words, dump it into the bureaucracy where it takes weeks for anything to trickle out. He then waited even longer before he even talked to Trump directly (all part of a WAPO story.) The guy should have been screaming in Trump's ear the next day, after he learned about the China problem, and other advisors should have pushed Trump hard to get out in front of it. Instead, they appeared to think they only had a political problem, and let the real problem, the disease itself, boil up from underneath. If Trump in mid-Janary had gone out front and said, "We may have a problem not of our devising, but a problem nevertheless, and we have to do everything we can to protect ourselves, and I'm appointing the VP to manage the problem day by day," then everybody now would think he was actually doing a great job. Instead, he got a lot of bad advice and has spent the last two months stepping on his own dick, and it's almost like he's being blamed for the disease, rather than just being blamed for being his usual self (an inept bumbling fool.) What he and his advisors have blown here is the possibility that he might look like a true leader in a crisis that everybody could understand that he couldn't prevent. But he's *still* insisting that it's not going to be that bad, and he's exacerbating the inept bumbling fool judgment. To say it in a few words: he has been badly served by his underlings. Some of us thought that might happen in a true crisis, and now it has.
And now he has two crises to manage. The oil market just went in the toilet, and that by itself could drag us into a recession. If we had a President who wasn't an inept bumbling fool, he might be able to get with OPEC and the Russians, bang some heads together, and get a floor under oil prices -- some kind of agreement to run at least through the easing of the COVID-19 panic. But I've got the feeling we're going to see him actually tap-dancing on his dick, not just stepping on it.
My only relief comes from the fact that Trump scared me so badly that over the past few years I shifted most of my investments into bonds, which have been doing quite nicely lately -- prices for mine are going up as yields fall through the floor -- and that sometime soon, I'm going to liquidate the bonds and stick a bundle of cash into Exxon-Mobil. At Friday's prices, which are almost sure to drop tomorrow, Exxon-Mobil's dividend yield is 7.3%, or $73,000 annually for every million you stick in. And if the stock goes back to the price it was at just a couple of months ago (and it will) you'll make 30% on the stock, as well. If I die from COVID-19 because of Trump's bumbling, at least I'll go with a smile on my face.
If the virus fizzles out and everything turns out OK, will you give Trump credit just as you now condemn him?
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This is a very valid and real point. But obviously not obvious to some.
So true considering the regular seasonal flu overwhelms the medical system...adding new cases will spell disaster.
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Fake news...fake news... But what about Fox?
Fox doesn't do news. They're an opinion maker for the most part. I'm talking about news from NY Times, Washington Post, NBC, CBS, ABC, who claim to be unbiased media.
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What is Canada doing that is better?
Last week British Columbia, a province in Canada, had more tests done than the entire USA.
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This circulates on the Internet. I don’t know how authentic or accurate it is.
That won't be possible, even if the initial numbers are true.
There are a total for about 5 mil ICU admissions/year, and at most 70-80k ICU beds. Many of those ICU beds are in lower intensity hospitals who don't deal with very sick people.
There is no way that in 2 months the US ICUs can accommodate 2 NEW millions admissions (vs 5 mil.year) in those 80K adult beds, many of which can't deal with the sicker patients.
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This is a very valid and real point. But obviously not obvious to some.
What do you mean by that? Who are “some.” And were it obvious to all, including the “some,” what difference would it make? No system is designed to withstand extreme levels of rare events, or black swans. No health or hospital system in the world can be designed with such spare capacity and redundancy.
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Last week British Columbia, a province in Canada, had more tests done than the entire USA.
Source, brother?
P.S. could it be because BC has total population the size that can fit on a post stamp?
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What is Canada doing that is better?
In 2003, we had in Canada the SARS virus outbreak that infected 375 people just in Toronto and killed 44.
Some of the lessons earned from that outbreak were the availability of the test kits and early detection of cases which allows for an individual’s contacts to be isolated more quickly, potentially limiting the virus’s spread.
As of today, Canada has 64 Covid-19 cases compared with 538 cases in USA. Hopefully, it won't get much worse.
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... As of today, Canada has 64 Covid-19 cases compared with 538 cases in USA. Hopefully, it won't get much worse.
Of course, let’s not forget that the whole population of Canada can fit on Rhode Island alone.
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What do you mean by that? Who are “some.” And were it obvious to all, including the “some,” what difference would it make? No system is designed to withstand extreme levels of rare events, or black swans. No health or hospital system in the world can be designed with such spare capacity and redundancy.
Faced with such a situation, you have to throw everything you have at the problem. If you miss that initial chance to contain it, it could lead to much bigger problems.
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Faced with such a situation, you have to throw everything you have at the problem. If you miss that initial chance to contain it, it could lead to much bigger problems.
That’s just an empty slogan.
Nothing you can do can fully prepare you for a black swan event.
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Of course, let’s not forget that the whole population of Canada can fit on Rhode Island alone.
maybe all the covid-19 virus cells from Canada could fit on Rhode Island, but not all the people
the map below illustrates the geographical virus distribution and how it was tested
https://maphub.net/outbreakcc/canada-covid19-map
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In 2003, we had in Canada the SARS virus outbreak that infected 375 people just in Toronto and killed 44.
Some of the lessons earned from that outbreak were the availability of the test kits and early detection of cases which allows for an individual’s contacts to be isolated more quickly, potentially limiting the virus’s spread.
As of today, Canada has 64 Covid-19 cases compared with 538 cases in USA. Hopefully, it won't get much worse.
US population is 9 times Canada's so 64x9= 576 equivalent to US which had only 538. That's very comparative. But frankly, the numbers in both countries are too small, just a perturbation when compared to the 54,000,000 flu cases we had in a season a couple of years ago with 50,000 dead. This panic and comparative stuff is just political. It's no way to handle a viral epidemic or pandemic.
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Source, brother?
P.S. could it be because BC has total population the size that can fit on a post stamp?
Right...so why the hell is a population that can fit onto a postage stamp well ahead of the almighty USA in getting these test kits out and in use.
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That’s just an empty slogan.
Nothing you can do can fully prepare you for a black swan event.
That's exactly what the USA started out at doing...NOTHING>><>>
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US population is 9 times Canada's so 64x9= 576 equivalent to US which had only 538. That's very comparative. But frankly, the numbers in both countries are too small, just a perturbation when compared to the 54,000,000 flu cases we had in a season a couple of years ago with 50,000 dead. This panic and comparative stuff is just political. It's no way to handle a viral epidemic or pandemic.
Are they small in the USA because of ignorance...not many cases being tested. That's one way to keep it small...bury one's head in the sand with your butt sticking up.
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maybe all the covid-19 virus cells from Canada could fit on Rhode Island, but not all the people
the map below illustrates the geographical virus distribution and how it was tested
https://maphub.net/outbreakcc/canada-covid19-map
Here's a map of US cases mostly confined to the big cities. There were a bunch on two cruise ships. But I don;t know if those count as those people got the disease when the ships visited Japan and China.
The big question for the US and around the world, will the disease spread throughout everyone's community and have to play out as there are no curatives? The rest is just conversation. I just noticed I live within the N in NJ label on the map. It seems like I'm in a hot area. So I'll retreat and hide under the sheets until this is over. :)
https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2020/us/coronavirus-us-cases.html
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Are they small in the USA because of ignorance...not many cases being tested. That's one way to keep it small...bury one's head in the sand with your butt sticking up.
It's election season. It must be Trump's fault. I get it. Maybe if you guys didn't get everyone busy with the phony impeachment nonsense, the government could have been more efficient dealing with this.
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US population is 9 times Canada's so 64x9= 576 equivalent to US which had only 538. That's very comparative. But frankly, the numbers in both countries are too small, just a perturbation when compared to the 54,000,000 flu cases we had in a season a couple of years ago with 50,000 dead. This panic and comparative stuff is just political. It's no way to handle a viral epidemic or pandemic.
True, the relative sizes of USA and Canada do correlate with the current infection numbers. And it's still too early to tell the future trajectories.
What we do know is that in 2003, Canada was not prepared for SARS and that caused the rapid spread. Also in case of Iran, initially they underestimated the problem and tried to cover it up, and now a country with 80 million of people has close to 7,000 infections.
Slobodan pointed out that "throwing every you have at the problem" is an empty slogan. On the contrary, it is the only way to defeat such a plague. Actually, after the initial bungling in Wuhan, Chinese recognized their initial insufficient response and now they are indeed throwing everything they have at the virus. And it seems to work.
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It's election season. It must be Trump's fault. I get it. Maybe if you guys didn't get everyone busy with the phony impeachment nonsense, the government could have been more efficient dealing with this.
Why are you continually bringing in politics into this issue. It's not a political issue...it's a world wide problem.
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Source, brother?
Here yah go.
https://globalnews.ca/news/6610416/bc-covid-19-testing-more-than-united-states-premier/
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Why are you continually bringing in politics into this issue. It's not a political issue...it's a world wide problem.
When you attack the government and administration, that's political. You offer nothing to help but criticism. Why don't you give Trump a chance? You know, he didn't start the virus.
In 1986, Central Park's ice skating rink in NYC was shut down after 6 years of the government trying to fix it. They spent $14 million. Donald Trump, a private citizen stepped in and offered to fix it for $3 million in 6 months. His offer was taken up and he completed the job in 4 months and under budget. When asked why NYC government couldn't fix it, he quipped in typical Trump fashion, "they’re very nice people and I like them very much but they're all idiots!' "
https://www.forbes.com/sites/offwhitepapers/2015/08/24/donald-trump-and-the-wollman-rinking-of-american-politics/#1e1026f12fc8
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If the virus fizzles out and everything turns out OK, will you give Trump credit just as you now condemn him?
I will give him credit for being prescient, when all the scientists were saying otherwise; indeed I will.
I won't give him credit for quieting the panic, which seems to have begun. Runs on food and toilet paper are now underway.
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I will give him credit for being prescient, when all the scientists were saying otherwise; indeed I will.
I won't give him credit for quieting the panic, which seems to have begun. Runs on food and toilet paper are now underway.
Trump's trying to provide assurance by showing the government departments are actively focusing all their attention at the problem. $8 billion has been legislated by the government for just this virus. Unfortunately, the media is doing their usual worst in playing up the situation making everyone nuts. It reminds me of snow reports here on the East Coast. The weathermen get the people so afraid, everyone stays home and there's like two inches of snow instead of the reports 30 inches. I usually go out and have the roads to myself. Rumor mongers and disaster merchants make up the news people so they can sell their fear and keep people watching the ads they play on TV. The whole thing is mainly phoney. Climate change and Amazon fires come to mind as well. These things sell.
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That's exactly what the USA started out at doing...NOTHING>><>>
Switch to decaf.
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When you attack the government and administration, that's political. You offer nothing to help but criticism. Why don't you give Trump a chance? You know, he didn't start the virus.
In 1986, Central Park's ice skating rink in NYC was shut down after 6 years of the government trying to fix it. They spent $14 million. Donald Trump, a private citizen stepped in and offered to fix it for $3 million in 6 months. His offer was taken up and he completed the job in 4 months and under budget. When asked why NYC government couldn't fix it, he quipped in typical Trump fashion, "they’re very nice people and I like them very much but they're all idiots!' "
https://www.forbes.com/sites/offwhitepapers/2015/08/24/donald-trump-and-the-wollman-rinking-of-american-politics/#1e1026f12fc8
An amazing story! Who was the "idiot" mayor at the time?
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I will give him credit for being prescient, when all the scientists were saying otherwise; indeed I will.
I won't give him credit for quieting the panic, which seems to have begun. Runs on food and toilet paper are now underway.
We did a weekly shoping trip yesterday. Costco and Walmart. Not packed with shoppers, abot a normal crowd. Costco had pallets of paper goods, botttled water and food stuffs. Nothing was sold out. Walmart had some thin shelves, pasta, some canned goods but thats not weird for them on a Sunday afternoon. Saw peoiple buying bbq's lawnmowers, bikes etc. Not looking like a panic here in my slice of Indiane but we are only two cases recorded.
Personally we are well sticked...try to stay that way as a rule anyway. I'm wondering when it will happen that the call comes to just stay home for a few weeks. Not good timing for us. We just started a big project, three months of work on location for a client. We just finished our slow season and its time to earn some cash. This could put a kink into it. Fortunanty we are working in a emply factory building with pretty much zero human contact.
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That’s just an empty slogan.
Nothing you can do can fully prepare you for a black swan event.
Public health means preparedness. The fact that a lot of the time nothing really bad happens is not evidence what we should do nothing.
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I've made no secret of my disdain for Trump. I think he is the scion and now leader of an organized crime family, that he suffers from at least one serious mental illness that endangers all of us (narcissistic personality disorder) that he is a buffoon, he cheats at golf, and has bad taste. But I don't think he's totally to blame for the mishandling of the Covid-19 epidemic. No President can really run the US government, although Trump has clearly proven that one really bad President can damage it. Trump has obviously been poorly supported by the medical establishment. Epidemiologists should have been screaming to the media instead of mumbling about it in papers and conferences, ever since it first began to spread in China. I'm an avid consumer of the media (an ex-reporter) and I really didn't hear much from those guys until a month or so ago. The head of Health and Human Services, who knew how bad this was going to get back in early January, first delegated his chief of staff to inform somebody on the National Security Council about it -- in other words, dump it into the bureaucracy where it takes weeks for anything to trickle out. He then waited even longer before he even talked to Trump directly (all part of a WAPO story.) The guy should have been screaming in Trump's ear the next day, after he learned about the China problem, and other advisors should have pushed Trump hard to get out in front of it. Instead, they appeared to think they only had a political problem, and let the real problem, the disease itself, boil up from underneath. If Trump in mid-Janary had gone out front and said, "We may have a problem not of our devising, but a problem nevertheless, and we have to do everything we can to protect ourselves, and I'm appointing the VP to manage the problem day by day," then everybody now would think he was actually doing a great job. Instead, he got a lot of bad advice and has spent the last two months stepping on his own dick, and it's almost like he's being blamed for the disease, rather than just being blamed for being his usual self (an inept bumbling fool.) What he and his advisors have blown here is the possibility that he might look like a true leader in a crisis that everybody could understand that he couldn't prevent. But he's *still* insisting that it's not going to be that bad, and he's exacerbating the inept bumbling fool judgment. To say it in a few words: he has been badly served by his underlings. Some of us thought that might happen in a true crisis, and now it has.
That may all be true, I can't argue against it. But he has shown a willingness to throw people under the bus when they disagree with him, personal loyalty seems to priority No. 1 (which seems a little feudal to me). Does that have a muzzling effect on the civil servants who work in the departments in question? I'm in no position to judge, I'm simply asking.
I partly agree that people in the know should have been more forthcoming with info, going public if they needed to, but would that have put them in danger of losing their jobs? Or at least in fear of that happening? He may have been ill-served by bad underlings, on the other hand he may have created that state of affairs by his previous actions.
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An amazing story! Who was the "idiot" mayor at the time?
Koch.
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Public health means preparedness. The fact that a lot of the time nothing really bad happens is not evidence what we should do nothing.
And where did I say or imply we should do nothing?
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The head of the Port Authority of New York and New Jersey, Rick Cotton, has tested positive for the virus.
https://www.nytimes.com/2020/03/09/world/coronavirus-news.html?action=click&module=Spotlight&pgtype=Homepage
Still no clear strategy in many places
https://www.nytimes.com/2020/03/09/opinion/coronavirus-testing-new-york.html?action=click&module=Opinion&pgtype=Homepage
In the hospital where I work we do have some clear testing strategies on who to test but it depends a lot an assessing the risk; if you don't have the right history it's very easy to miss.
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Thank goodness Trump is calming. the markets. We are only down 1500 points this morning.
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Situation out of control, this morning DJ dropped at one point over 2,000 points, NYSE triggered circuit breaker. Stocks still down, infections still up.
A task force aimed at stopping collusion in government procurement is on "high alert".
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Situation out of control, this morning DJ dropped at one point over 2,000 points, NYSE triggered circuit breaker. Stocks still down, infections still up.
A task force aimed at stopping collusion in government procurement is on "high alert".
Yep, if the stock market falls any further, your best option may be to catch the coronavirus and cut your retirement short.
In other news, I heard that Trump floated the idea of quarantining the passengers from the Grand Princess cruise ship at some of his resorts where occupancy is down.
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In other news, I heard that Trump floated the idea of quarantining the passengers from the Grand Princess cruise ship at some of his resorts where occupancy is down.
8-)
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Situation out of control, this morning DJ dropped at one point over 2,000 points, NYSE triggered circuit breaker. Stocks still down, infections still up.
A task force aimed at stopping collusion in government procurement is on "high alert".
Why isn't there an index on the Corona virus? I'd take it against whatever this US administration comes up with ...
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The first photographic casualty:
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When you attack the government and administration, that's political.
No, it's not. It's keeping an eye on your employees.
Stop looking at everything through the "Trump" lens. He's just the guy who happens to be in the top job at the moment.
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The first photographic casualty:
Appears it's just an American workshop export: saves a lot of people a lot of wasted money.
;-)
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No, it's not. It's keeping an eye on your employees.
Stop looking at everything through the "Trump" lens. He's just the guy who happens to be in the top job at the moment.
I think you look at everything through the anti-Trump lens. :)
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The first photographic casualty:
It's actually a good thing. Shooting now any street scenes in Milano would be quite depressing.
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It's actually a good thing. Shooting now any street scenes in Milano would be quite depressing.
On the other hand, if you want those cityscapes without people messing them up...
:-)
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So I went for a medical test unrelated to the virus. The medical lab had a warning sign by the elevator door. This place doesn't test for the virus. So I wonder how testing labs that do, will handle sick people?
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So I went for a medical test unrelated to the virus. The medical lab had a warning sign by the elevator door. This place doesn't test for the virus. So I wonder how testing labs that do, will handle sick people?
Take them into the back and shoot them. Simplest method of containment.
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Take them into the back and shoot them. Simplest method of containment.
And how is this an acceptable comment?
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And how is this an acceptable comment?
Indeed... I hope the author does not lose any family member or friend to this new disease.
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So I went for a medical test unrelated to the virus. The medical lab had a warning sign by the elevator door. This place doesn't test for the virus. So I wonder how testing labs that do, will handle sick people?
Here in Portugal, contingency plans and instructions are very clear. People with such symptoms should call a phone number for clarification. If symptoms persist, they are taken to properly isolated facilities/hospitals prepared to handle such cases. They are tested there.
Right now many schools and universities are closed, public events are cancelled, etc. Even football matches will be played next weekend with no public. We have learned from the cases of Italy and Spain, who have enforced such measures too late.
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And how is this an acceptable comment?
Indeed... I hope the author does not lose any family member or friend to this new disease.
Are both of you truly unable to detect humour unless it's emblazoned with smileys?
Jeremy
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And how is this an acceptable comment?
Because it's a black joke: it's the kind of humour that got the Brits through the bombings of WW2.
Rob C
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Are both of you truly unable to detect humour unless it's emblazoned with smileys?
Jeremy
It's another result of the hopeless deadness of years of political correctness killing off the delicate sensors that detect and identify different codes of human speech. Something about hammers and their ability to perceive the entirity of creation as a nail.
Thank goodness our Moderator is not a hammer.
;-)
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Here in Portugal, contingency plans and instructions are very clear. People with such symptoms should call a phone number for clarification. If symptoms persist, they are taken to properly isolated facilities/hospitals prepared to handle such cases. They are tested there.
Right now many schools and universities are closed, public events are cancelled, etc. Even football matches will be played next weekend with no public. We have learned from the cases of Italy and Spain, who have enforced such measures too late.
Meanwhile, over in France, Spain and in Britain... all that they are concerned with seems to be keeping tourism alive.
Perhaps, now, it really will be in the interest of Mexico to pay for a wall!
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A CNN interview with an expert in infectious diseases, Michael Osterholm, https://www.cnn.com/2020/03/10/opinions/osterholm-coronavirus-interview-bergen/index.html (https://www.cnn.com/2020/03/10/opinions/osterholm-coronavirus-interview-bergen/index.html).
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In contrast to Trump who predicts that coronavirus will ‘miraculously’ go away by April, Angela Merkel thinks that most people will be infected by it.
BERLIN (Reuters) - Up to 70% of the population is likely to be infected with the coronavirus that is currently spreading around the world, German Chancellor Angela Merkel said, adding that since there was currently no cure the focus had to be on slowing its spread.
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-health-coronavirus-germany-merkel/most-people-will-get-the-coronavirus-aim-is-to-slow-its-spread-merkel-idUSKBN20Y1EY?il=0
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For whatever it's worth, WHO declared this a pandemic.
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For whatever it's worth, WHO declared this a pandemic.
which was to be expected for a while.
Initially, the Chinese dragged their feet, then Trump and even WHO took their sweet time to correctly classify it.
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In contrast to Trump who predicts that coronavirus will ‘miraculously’ go away by April, Angela Merkel thinks that most people will be infected by it.
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-health-coronavirus-germany-merkel/most-people-will-get-the-coronavirus-aim-is-to-slow-its-spread-merkel-idUSKBN20Y1EY?il=0
In contrast to Trump who predicts that coronavirus will ‘miraculously’ go away by April, Angela Merkel thinks that most people will be infected by it.
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-health-coronavirus-germany-merkel/most-people-will-get-the-coronavirus-aim-is-to-slow-its-spread-merkel-idUSKBN20Y1EY?il=0
Of course an East German would think that.
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In contrast to Trump who predicts that coronavirus will ‘miraculously’ go away by April, Angela Merkel thinks that most people will be infected by it.
Of course an East German would think that.
Yup, sigh, that's so typically German: first listening to what the experts say, then accurately reporting it. We, on the other hand, are fortunate to have a president who inherited a "natural ability" for science from an uncle was a "super genius" member of the M.I.T. faculty, thus allowing him to offer hunches about the future of a pandemic virus that are much more prescient than what the epidemiologists are saying.
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By slowing down the spread this is what we are trying to avoid: https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2020/03/who-gets-hospital-bed/607807/?utm_source=share&utm_campaign=share
In US people are even less likely to take this well if we reach that point, I really really hope we won't.
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Are both of you truly unable to detect humour unless it's emblazoned with smileys?
Jeremy
So are you OK with this kind of comment? Oh, it's "humor"? Come on, Jeremy, grow a spine and do your moderator job!
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By slowing down the spread this is what we are trying to avoid: https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2020/03/who-gets-hospital-bed/607807/?utm_source=share&utm_campaign=share
In US people are even less likely to take this well if we reach that point, I really really hope we won't.
That is an alarming article, and should be made a mandatory reading for WHO and the top US decision makers.
Here is two excerpts from the article:
Those who are too old to have a high likelihood of recovery, or who have too low a number of “life-years” left even if they should survive, will be left to die. This sounds cruel, but the alternative, the document argues, is no better. “In case of a total saturation of resources, maintaining the criterion of ‘first come, first served’ would amount to a decision to exclude late-arriving patients from access to intensive care.”
...
But if Italy is in an impossible position, the obligation facing the United States is very clear: To arrest the crisis before the impossible becomes necessary.
This means that our political leaders, the heads of business and private associations, and every one of us need to work together to accomplish two things: Radically expand the capacity of the country’s intensive-care units. And start engaging in extreme forms of social distancing. Cancel everything. Now.
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That is an alarming article, and should be made a mandatory reading for WHO and the top US decision makers.
Here is two excerpts from the article:
Yes, the panic, fed by the radical left and the press, is in full bloom.
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Yup, sigh, that's so typically German: first listening to what the experts say, then accurately reporting it. We, on the other hand, are fortunate to have a president who inherited a "natural ability" for science from an uncle was a "super genius" member of the M.I.T. faculty, thus allowing him to offer hunches about the future of a pandemic virus that are much more prescient than what the epidemiologists are saying.
Experts are often wrong. No one predicted the 2008 recession except for a few. 90% of the cases are in four countries. The virulence seems to be decreasing in China, the worse hit, which only had about 80K cases.
FLu is worse by a lot: Between 291,000 and 646,000 people die each year globally from seasonal influenza-related respiratory illnesses, according to new estimates from the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) and global health partners. (compared to 4600 so far with Coronavirus).
https://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/890082
Since I'm 75 with markers for being in real trouble should I get it (flu or the new virus), I'm not taking this lightly. I wash my hands, use antiseptic wash, and try to stay out of crowds. But let's not panic about this and put it in context. No one seems to blink much with the flu.
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A lot of stores and outfits are sending me how they are addressing the virus. Here's an example from my eyeglass store and also does eye checks.
"....is making an effort to minimize the spread of Coronavirus (COVID-19) and protect our patients and staff.
As always, each exam room is cleaned with antimicrobial wipes between patients. Our workstations are cleaned frequently throughout the day and check-in devices are sanitized between patients. Hand sanitizer is available in all waiting rooms.
We ask that you not visit our offices if you’ve had recent exposure to COVID-19, flu-like symptoms or recently traveled outside the U.S. If you have an urgent eye problem but have these conditions, please call our office to make special arrangements for care.
Thank you
...
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Yes, the panic, fed by the radical left and the press, is in full bloom.
Yes, definitely those radical leftist from the entire Europe are doing this to bring down the republicans.
I think that even if it will bite you in the rear you will still think this is political. Well, guess what? The virus has no political convictions and all the parties involved need to stop thinking about this in political terms. We are in this together, all hands on deck. The reason for this is to prevent the worse. When that happens you can blame it on the democrats for exaggerating.
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Yes, definitely those radical leftist from the entire Europe are doing this to bring down the republicans.
I think that even if it will bite you in the rear you will still think this is political. Well, guess what? The virus has no political convictions and all the parties involved need to stop thinking about this in political terms. We are in this together, all hands on deck. The reason for this is to prevent the worse. When that happens you can blame it on the democrats for exaggerating.
Not that it isn't serious. It's just that they're making it political. On both sides. The Democrats want to sink the economy and blame Trump for its spread. He of course is defending himself and recommending that we goose the economy (for the election) by doing away with payroll taxes until the end of the year. That would add another trillion dollars to this year's deficit. More debt. No one gives a damn about the country, only about power.
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"Trump announced he would be delivering a prime-time address to the nation Wednesday on the federal response to the coronavirus pandemic."
Each side will now try to outdo the other side showing how more serious they are. That means more spending than you can shake a stick at. The printing presses will go on overtime. More trees will be cut down for paper money.
https://www.timesleader.com/news/775891/trump-to-address-nation-tonight-on-federal-virus-response
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I have family working at home using computer to communicate. Insurance companies are allowing therapy sessions by phone. The whole world is trying to limit close contact. That seems reasonable.
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An address to the nation? I can't wait to see the fact check on that tomorrow.
https://www.cnn.com/2020/03/11/politics/fact-check-trump-administration-coronavirus-28-dishonest/index.html
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An address to the nation? I can't wait to see the fact check on that tomorrow.
https://www.cnn.com/2020/03/11/politics/fact-check-trump-administration-coronavirus-28-dishonest/index.html
And then CNN is dishonest with its "fact check". So whats new.
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And then CNN is dishonest with its "fact check". So whats new.
Yes, CNN is biased to the hilt and can best be described as one of the Democrat Party's propaganda machines.
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Experts are often wrong. No one predicted the 2008 recession except for a few. 90% of the cases are in four countries. The virulence seems to be decreasing in China, the worse hit, which only had about 80K cases.
Yes, experts are often wrong and they err more often on the optimistic side.
90% of the cases in four countries is just the latest snapshot. As of now, there are 8 countries with more than 1,000 Covid-19 cases and 122 affected countries with 125,000 infections and 4,600 deaths.
Compared to 2003 SARS with a couple of dozens countries there were 8,098 infections in total and 774 deaths. Now, just Italy has more cases and deaths. A month ago, they had just a few cases - "nothing to worry about".
The Chinese after their initial bungling and cover up acted decisively. Building two new hospitals in 2 weeks seems like a good way to prevent the outbreak. Try that in New York.
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Yes, CNN is biased to the hilt and can best be described as one of the Democrat Party's propaganda machines.
I think CNN and Fox News cancel each other out. I try to seek a variety of sources, conservative and liberal. I don't watch much tv news, though, so there is that and I never watch either CNN or Fox.
Sharon
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Of course an East German would think that.
How does an East German think?
BTW, Angela lived only for her first 30 years in East Germany. But obviously she remembers the communist state propaganda machine, playing down the dangers and plenty of cover ups.
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Here is a couple sobering pieces.
https://www.itv.com/news/2020-03-11/italy-doctors-coronavirus-covid-19-quarantine-milan-health/
https://medium.com/@tomaspueyo/coronavirus-act-today-or-people-will-die-f4d3d9cd99ca
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Here is a couple sobering pieces.
https://www.itv.com/news/2020-03-11/italy-doctors-coronavirus-covid-19-quarantine-milan-health/
https://medium.com/@tomaspueyo/coronavirus-act-today-or-people-will-die-f4d3d9cd99ca
This is what will happen here if we cannot slow this down.
In other order Trump suspended all flights from Europe. I think it's probably the right call but I'm afraid it's too late.
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This is what will happen here if we cannot slow this down.
In other order Trump suspended all flights from Europe. I think it's probably the right call but I'm afraid it's too late.
It's never too late...but Trump needs to start looking inwards and get a handle of the problem he has on his hands. Not knowing how big a problem he has is not the right answer.
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It's never too late...but Trump needs to start looking inwards and get a handle of the problem he has on his hands. Not knowing how big a problem he has is not the right answer.
What makes you think he does not know how big the problem is?
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At the store tonight...toilet paper aisle...those are paper towels on the shelves that can be torn into small squares. Glad I got butt loads of the stuff a few weeks ago.
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This is what will happen here if we cannot slow this down.
In other order Trump suspended all flights from Europe. I think it's probably the right call but I'm afraid it's too late.
Was it stated why he excluded the UK?
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What makes you think he does not know how big the problem is?
Are you being serious now?
After weeks of saying this is just a fluke exaggerated by the political opposition and the slow response to the initial cases, now that he seems to realize this is much more than that is supposed to inspire confidence?
I mean even the current travel ban for Europe doesn’t fully makes sense because the UK is not included and yet people travel freely between UK and the rest of the Europe. Or maybe the current government doesn’t think UK is part of Europe?
I want to see more concrete measures before I can say they really know the scale.
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FLu is worse by a lot: Between 291,000 and 646,000 people die each year globally from seasonal influenza-related respiratory illnesses, according to new estimates from the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) and global health partners. (compared to 4600 so far with Coronavirus).
https://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/890082
I don't know why you keep re-stating these stats. The new virus is only just at the start of its spread, of course the stats will be lower.
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Are you being serious now?
After weeks of saying this is just a fluke exaggerated by the political opposition and the slow response to the initial cases, now that he seems to realize this is much more than that is supposed to inspire confidence?
I mean even the current travel ban for Europe doesn’t fully makes sense because the UK is not included and yet people travel freely between UK and the rest of the Europe. Or maybe the current government doesn’t think UK is part of Europe?
I want to see more concrete measures before I can say they really know the scale.
Oh please, get real. He said no such thing. What 'slow response"? You reading the Dem talking points now? So just want is it you EXPECT to hear? More panic talk like the MSM is pushing tonight?
Yes, we don't know the details of all of these plans yet, and you were sure not going to get them in an Oval Office address. As for the the scale, well, no one really knows that answer...anywhere... since the situation is so fluid. I have full confidence that the best inforamtion is being made available to those who need it.
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Tom Hanks and wife have covid 19
https://www.latimes.com/entertainment-arts/movies/story/2020-03-11/tom-hanks-and-rita-wilson-test-positive-for-coronavirus
NBA cancels season after a Utah player tests positive.
https://www.wsaw.com/content/news/NBA-suspends-its-season-568723291.html
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At the store tonight...toilet paper aisle...those are paper towels on the shelves that can be torn into small squares. Glad I got butt loads of the stuff a few weeks ago.
We have still a lot of toilet paper in Canada.
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Oh please, get real. He said no such thing. What 'slow response"? You reading the Dem talking points now? So just want is it you EXPECT to hear? More panic talk like the MSM is pushing tonight?
Yes, we don't know the details of all of these plans yet, and you were sure not going to get them in an Oval Office address. As for the the scale, well, no one really knows that answer...anywhere... since the situation is so fluid. I have full confidence that the best inforamtion is being made available to those who need it.
Perhaps you can be bothered to read some of the links posted in this thread. As opposed to you and others I have to no allegiances to the supreme leader, or others for that matter.
Since we knew about this the response has been slow regardless if you think otherwise. I don't care if a democrat would have done better or worse, we should have done better. We are way behind in testing kits, we will run out of protective equipment, we failed basic containment measures, etc. It will get much worse. I'm already at peace that I'll be infected, anything else is a bonus.
As to minimizing, again, I don't think you can say this with a straight face. Maybe he didn't put those things together in the same sentence (and I'm just quoting his defenders from this forum ;)), but minimizing he did. I recall he said the virus will be gone by April among other things, what chance this will happen? Regardless this is not the time to look back and see who screwed up but ahead and try to do out best to make it as tolerable as possible. Together.
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What makes you think he does not know how big the problem is?
Hopefully, by now he is finally realizing that the problem is much more serious than when he claimed initially that it's just a minor hiccup which will be finished in April.
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Perhaps you can be bothered to read some of the links posted in this thread. As opposed to you and others I have to no allegiances to the supreme leader, or others for that matter.
Since we knew about this the response has been slow regardless if you think otherwise. I don't care if a democrat would have done better or worse, we should have done better. We are way behind in testing kits, we will run out of protective equipment, we failed basic containment measures, etc. It will get much worse. I'm already at peace that I'll be infected, anything else is a bonus.
As to minimizing, again, I don't think you can say this with a straight face. Maybe he didn't put those things together in the same sentence (and I'm just quoting his defenders from this forum ;)), but minimizing he did. I recall he said the virus will be gone by April among other things, what chance this will happen? Regardless this is not the time to look back and see who screwed up but ahead and try to do out best to make it as tolerable as possible. Together.
Once again you are simply making up false statements from thin air. He never said the virus would be gone by April. I’ve read the exact statements . It appears you have not. If you can’t even be bothered to quote the truth, your posts are meaningless.
We can debate if the response was slow, or not, but it is what it is, and we have no clue if it could have been done better. Maybe, maybe not. It is what is is. And yes we need to do this together but Washington has other ideas...on both sides of the aisle.
So unless you think we should have shuttered the entire country weeks ago...how did we fail?
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Once again you are simply making up false statements from thin air. He never said the virus would be gone by April. I’ve read the exact statements . It appears you have not. If you can’t even be bothered to quote the truth, your posts are meaningless.
2/27:
https://www.factcheck.org/2020/02/factchecking-trumps-coronavirus-press-conference/
Trump said the current number of COVID-19 cases in the U.S. is “going very substantially down, not up.” But the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention has said to expect more cases and has warned that it is highly unlikely that the virus will not spread to some degree within the U.S. The first case of community spread may have already occurred.
Later, after being asked about the CDC’s recommendation for schools and other institutions to dust off their preparedness plans, Trump again suggested that the case total was in decline.
“I don’t think it’s going to come to that, especially with the fact that we’re going down, not up,” he said. “We’re going very substantially down, not up.”
Stop defending this lying idiot.
Look, here’s the problem. As others have said, we have no idea if another president would have reacted better or worse. We can, however, be fairly sure that another President wouldn’t have gutted the CDC, wouldn’t be contradicting medical opinion (And presumably governing) with uninformed hunches, and wouldn’t put a guy who thought he could pray AIDS away in charge of the response team.
This isn’t about what hasn’t happened yet. It’s about an inept moron being tasked with a national emergency. Good luck to us.
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Once again you are simply making up false statements from thin air. He never said the virus would be gone by April. I’ve read the exact statements . It appears you have not. If you can’t even be bothered to quote the truth, your posts are meaningless.
We can debate if the response was slow, or not, but it is what it is, and we have no clue if it could have been done better. Maybe, maybe not. It is what is is. And yes we need to do this together but Washington has other ideas...on both sides of the aisle.
So unless you think we should have shuttered the entire country weeks ago...how did we fail?
Google Trump virus April and see that the air is not that thin after all. If you happen to believe that Trump can do no wrong that's where this discussion really ends.
Meanwhile, while googling that I came across this: https://www.nytimes.com/2020/03/05/us/politics/trump-coronavirus-fact-check.html . Overall interesting, I don't watch politics much but I got up to date to some statements.
I already gave some examples of where the response has been slow, and you can find this from various independent sources. There isn't that much up to debate that it has been slow, only if it could have been done better but now it's a moot point.
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2/27:
https://www.factcheck.org/2020/02/factchecking-trumps-coronavirus-press-conference/
Stop defending this lying idiot.
Look, here’s the problem. As others have said, we have no idea if another president would have reacted better or worse. We can, however, be fairly sure that another President wouldn’t have gutted the CDC, wouldn’t be contradicting medical opinion (And presumably governing) with uninformed hunches, and wouldn’t put a guy who thought he could pray AIDS away in charge of the response team.
This isn’t about what hasn’t happened yet. It’s about an inept moron being tasked with a national emergency. Good luck to us.
+1
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+1
+2
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I was pleased to see that Trump is going to throttle visits from Europeans, since that seems to be where there's a growing threat. By suppressing the numbers of incoming visitors, some of whom presumably would carry the virus, we may not reduce the absolute number of Americans who ultimately become infected, but we are more likely to slow the rate of infection and spread it over time. That's critical because the U.S. does not have the hospital coverage to care for a rapid rise in infections, especially since we are also currently dealing with a fairly bad flu season, which requires some of the same hospital space and equipment needed to fight COVID-19. If we can spread the infection's time line, we can assure that a higher percentage of critical cases will get hospital care.
I remain somewhat appalled by the hospital situation. A University of Minnesota public health expert said this:
"Right now, today, in Minneapolis-St. Paul, every one of the beds that we use for extracorporeal membrane oxygenation (ECMO), a high-level machine that supports the heart and lungs and is critical for keeping people alive who have illness like COVID-19, are filled. This is in part because we are just coming off a moderate to severe flu season and that has really stretched our care capacity. On top of that, a number of hospitals throughout the country have only 5 to 10 days' worth of personal protective equipment (PPE) available for health care workers. They don't know when over-stretched PPE manufacturers will be able to deliver more."
Minneapolis St. Paul, with the University hospitals, two large public medical centers, a large VA hospital numerous private hospitals, and the Mayo Clinic in Rochester just to the south of the Cities, has some of the best per-capita health care in the nation, and this guy is saying that with a big outbreak, the Twin Cities would be in serious trouble.
I really don't like the fact that this discussion of the virus has swerved into political debate, although I agree that things would be better with a different President (of any reasonable political philosophy, left or right) or at least one who kept his mouth shut and stopped spreading incorrect information. But, what we've got is what we've got, and we simply have to keep encouraging a realistic approach to the infection.
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I have a sore throat, dry cough, and mild fever. Four days since the onset of the first, very mild symptoms (tingling in the throat).
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Was it stated why he excluded the UK?
Apparently, because the UK is not in the Schengen zone which allows totally free movement of people between countries.
https://www.google.com/search?source=hp&ei=i_1pXr_0M4SXlwSO-ZuoAg&q=schengen+zone+countries&oq=shengen+zone&gs_l=psy-ab.1.1.0i10l10.1129.4031..7393...0.0..0.85.811.12......0....1..gws-wiz.......0.Vw7ovj46DGU
Rob
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I don't know why you keep re-stating these stats. The new virus is only just at the start of its spread, of course the stats will be lower.
It's the rubber wall effect.
It's in the tltle; all you need do it change girl for guy:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gsk5btL3t64
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I have a sore throat, dry cough, and mild fever. Four days since the onset of the first, very mild symptoms (tingling in the throat).
I have that all winter, every year.
At 8a.m. I was standing in the local clinic waiting to have a blood test. The entire waiting room was sniffling. Nobody, staff or patients was wearing a mask. Last I read, a couple in Sa Pobla, a few clicks away, has the virus.
I am old; have underlying health problems, heart being one of them - I was having the blood test to discover what else has been going wrong, because something sure is as the previous test indicated. Now, if it gets as bad here as in Italy, and I face triage, then I hope like hell they give the chance to use ventilators to some young person rather than any old person like me: we have lived a life, for better or for worse, and there is little left for the best of us to contribute.
In your case, as in mine, best of luck to us both!
Rob
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I have a sore throat, dry cough, and mild fever. Four days since the onset of the first, very mild symptoms (tingling in the throat).
Sore throat and cough are not uncommon in winter, but fever could be sign of a cold or other virus. Hopefully, it's not the C19-virus or flu.
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Google Trump virus April and see that the air is not that thin after all. If you happen to believe that Trump can do no wrong that's where this discussion really ends.
Meanwhile, while googling that I came across this: https://www.nytimes.com/2020/03/05/us/politics/trump-coronavirus-fact-check.html . Overall interesting, I don't watch politics much but I got up to date to some statements.
I already gave some examples of where the response has been slow, and you can find this from various independent sources. There isn't that much up to debate that it has been slow, only if it could have been done better but now it's a moot point.
I watched Trump say what he said about April LIVE, I don't need to false media spin to know. You should consider doing the same so you don't look so uninformed. But yes this discussion with you has ended. I won't abide those of you can't be bothered to actually go the the prime source to get information.
Best wishes for your safety.
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2/27:
https://www.factcheck.org/2020/02/factchecking-trumps-coronavirus-press-conference/
Stop defending this lying idiot.
Look, here’s the problem. As others have said, we have no idea if another president would have reacted better or worse. We can, however, be fairly sure that another President wouldn’t have gutted the CDC, wouldn’t be contradicting medical opinion (And presumably governing) with uninformed hunches, and wouldn’t put a guy who thought he could pray AIDS away in charge of the response team.
This isn’t about what hasn’t happened yet. It’s about an inept moron being tasked with a national emergency. Good luck to us.
Stop believing what the lying press is telling you . Again I watched his pressers and interviews LIVE. Your stamtents reek of spin. A person with even half a brain can dissemble the actual words as said by Trump and see the spin imparted by those with an agenda. You CLEARLY have the same agenda. I'm done arguing. I hope you and your family stay heathy.
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Trump's speech last night certainly didn't help the markets. It looks like this morning we'll see another drastic drop at over 1,000 points.
David Frum dissects his speech in the Atlantic journal.
He offered no guidance or policy on how to prevent the spread of the disease inside the United States. Should your town cancel its St. Patrick’s Day parade? What about theaters and sporting events? Schools and colleges? Nothing.
He offered no explanation of what went wrong with the U.S. testing system, nor any assurance of when testing would become more widely available. His own previous promises of testing for anyone who needs it have been exploded as false. So what is true? Nothing.
Layoffs are coming, probably on a very large scale, as travel collapses and people hunker at home. Any word for those about to lose their jobs? Only the vaguest indication that something might be announced sometime soon.
Presidents are not all-powerful, especially not in the case of pandemic disease. There are limits to what they can do, for good or ill. But within those limits, at every juncture, Trump’s actions have ensured the worst possible outcomes. The worst outcome for public health. The worst outcome for the American economy. The worst outcome for American global leadership.
https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2020/03/trump-ensuring-worst-possible-outcome-coronavirus-crisis/607867/
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All we need now is a wide spread internet virus and the world stops turning...
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All we need now is a wide spread internet virus and the world stops turning...
And reverts to a time when my F3 becomes useful again?
I still have a few packs of Kodachrome 64 Pro in the freezer - and some 120 Velvia 50, too... always knew I shouldn't have sold those two 500 Series 'blads.
;-(
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I watched Trump say what he said about April LIVE, I don't need to false media spin to know. You should consider doing the same so you don't look so uninformed. But yes this discussion with you has ended. I won't abide those of you can't be bothered to actually go the the prime source to get information.
Best wishes for your safety.
You watched everything he says? What makes you think he only spoke once, or only tweeted once?
It's amazing how desperate some become to be right and hang on a single issue and ignore the rest. Trump might get a bad publicity when is not at fault but he hardly is faultless.
As I said before, I don't want this a political discussion now. You can argue all you want but we are in for some hard times.
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All we need now is a wide spread internet virus and the world stops turning...
A mask is key:
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I have a sore throat, dry cough, and mild fever. Four days since the onset of the first, very mild symptoms (tingling in the throat).
This is an example of how the virus spreads so easily, not that you have it.
You might have only have a common cold. Problem is what do you do because you don't know for sure. You assess your risk and pretest probability. There are already cases in Florida. If you know you have been exposed to one, you should get tested and avoid contact with others. If you can't get tested then you should self quarantine for 14 days. But I don't want to miss work for nothing! A valid point, but if you are infected you are already spreading the virus. Honestly I think we are beyond the point when we can do individual isolation to who has been exposed to known individuals, particularly because you are infectious when you are still asymptomatic. If your work is not essential or even better, can be done for home, you should do so.
What I mentioned about testing is probably not feasible because you are probably a lower risk unless you were in contact with people traveling from Europe recently and we don't have enough testing.
If you get sicker than you should go to the hospital.
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A mask is key:
I like those from tanga underwear, bras and such.
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Apparently, because the UK is not in the Schengen zone which allows totally free movement of people between countries.
https://www.google.com/search?source=hp&ei=i_1pXr_0M4SXlwSO-ZuoAg&q=schengen+zone+countries&oq=shengen+zone&gs_l=psy-ab.1.1.0i10l10.1129.4031..7393...0.0..0.85.811.12......0....1..gws-wiz.......0.Vw7ovj46DGU
Rob
Now I know why the UK custom officers were assholes when I visited, twice in a week, at least an alternative explanation. My wife said she's not coming back, and she only tasted the poisoned fruit once. I think I got over it 2 years later.
It still makes no sense if you want to stop the virus for coming more here.
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Was it stated why he excluded the UK?
Trump has three resorts in the UK and none in Europe.
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Trump has three resorts in the UK and none in Europe.
This is getting tiring. First you make a dig at Trump for being a fascist (and our good moderator confused that for humor) and now this. It ain't funny.
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I was pleased to see that Trump is going to throttle visits from Europeans, since that seems to be where there's a growing threat. By suppressing the numbers of incoming visitors, some of whom presumably would carry the virus, we may not reduce the absolute number of Americans who ultimately become infected, but we are more likely to slow the rate of infection and spread it over time. That's critical because the U.S. does not have the hospital coverage to care for a rapid rise in infections, especially since we are also currently dealing with a fairly bad flu season, which requires some of the same hospital space and equipment needed to fight COVID-19. If we can spread the infection's time line, we can assure that a higher percentage of critical cases will get hospital care.
I remain somewhat appalled by the hospital situation. A University of Minnesota public health expert said this:
"Right now, today, in Minneapolis-St. Paul, every one of the beds that we use for extracorporeal membrane oxygenation (ECMO), a high-level machine that supports the heart and lungs and is critical for keeping people alive who have illness like COVID-19, are filled. This is in part because we are just coming off a moderate to severe flu season and that has really stretched our care capacity. On top of that, a number of hospitals throughout the country have only 5 to 10 days' worth of personal protective equipment (PPE) available for health care workers. They don't know when over-stretched PPE manufacturers will be able to deliver more."
Minneapolis St. Paul, with the University hospitals, two large public medical centers, a large VA hospital numerous private hospitals, and the Mayo Clinic in Rochester just to the south of the Cities, has some of the best per-capita health care in the nation, and this guy is saying that with a big outbreak, the Twin Cities would be in serious trouble.
I really don't like the fact that this discussion of the virus has swerved into political debate, although I agree that things would be better with a different President (of any reasonable political philosophy, left or right) or at least one who kept his mouth shut and stopped spreading incorrect information. But, what we've got is what we've got, and we simply have to keep encouraging a realistic approach to the infection.
I've been saying this for a while. People outside the hospital system don't realize how stretched we are in these resources. We can easily run out of ICU beds in the winter without any COVID-19, we won't be able to deal with hefty spikes in admissions. Protective equipment won't be in enough quantities, physicians and nurses will get infected. Where I work we have almost no reserve for somebody to get sick and not come to work, and it will happen.
The even larger quaternary referral centers are full on regular basis, I know University of Michigan is.
Please read those articles from Italy that were posted in the last few pages to give an idea how bad this could get.
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I don't know why you keep re-stating these stats. The new virus is only just at the start of its spread, of course the stats will be lower.
First I didn't repeat all the stats. The one in China with 90k cases is recent. And it seems, if they're telling the truth, that the cases are starting to decrease there. So it doesn;t seem to be spreading as bad as the regular flu. Let's hope so. As an old fart with diabetes lung and heart problems, I'm in the target group for the most mortality if you get this disease. :o
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This is getting tiring. First you make a dig at Trump for being a fascist (and our good moderator confused that for humor) and now this. It ain't funny.
Sorry. You may not like it, but it is funny,
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I have that all winter, every year.
At 8a.m. I was standing in the local clinic waiting to have a blood test. The entire waiting room was sniffling. Nobody, staff or patients was wearing a mask. Last I read, a couple in Sa Pobla, a few clicks away, has the virus.
I am old; have underlying health problems, heart being one of them - I was having the blood test to discover what else has been going wrong, because something sure is as the previous test indicated. Now, if it gets as bad here as in Italy, and I face triage, then I hope like hell they give the chance to use ventilators to some young person rather than any old person like me: we have lived a life, for better or for worse, and there is little left for the best of us to contribute.
In your case, as in mine, best of luck to us both!
Rob
Rob, that's an honorable point of view and I wish you best of luck. However not everybody thinks this way, in US even less.
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DOW down 1700 points. NY Stock Exchange shut down.
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NY Stock Exchange reopens. Down 1750 points.
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My most amazing stock exchange number this morning: Exxon stock at the current dividend rate is yielding 9%.
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My most amazing stock exchange number this morning: Exxon stock at the current dividend rate is yielding 9%.
They might stop or pause paying dividends. Also, when the stock price recovers, the yield would go down.
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My most amazing stock exchange number this morning: Exxon stock at the current dividend rate is yielding 9%.
But with oil down to $30, and the economies in the world on a downswing, how long will that dividend last?
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They might stop or pause paying dividends. Also, when the stock price recovers, the yield would go down.
If it recovers. You might get 9% now, but if the price goes down further after you bought it, the 9% won't look so good against a lower stock price.
The current PE ratio for the S&P is reaching down to traditional ranges. Still high though at 19-1. Right now it's all a crap shoot. But don;t listen to me. I;ve always been a terrible investor.
https://www.multpl.com/s-p-500-pe-ratio
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Just interrupting this thread to wish all of my friends here continued good health. I know some of you gents (and ladies) are older - please stay safe and know that my best wishes are with you. Rob, Slobodan, Alan, Russ if you're around - Craig too? you guys stay ok, ok? I'd really miss arguing with you and seeing your pictures. (Not necessarily in that order ;).) And John - my wife and I look forward to your books each spring/fall. You can't go anywhere either. :)
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They might stop or pause paying dividends. Also, when the stock price recovers, the yield would go down.
Of course. But they have a very long history of continuous dividends, have punched right through a couple of previous oil crises, they are the largest oil company in the US and also have a strong retail operation, and when the price recovers (and the dividend then goes down) you'll benefit from the price recovery (increase in the stock value.)
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Are both of you truly unable to detect humour unless it's emblazoned with smileys?
Jeremy
Sure, people are dying from this pandemic, lets make some bad taste jokes.
Do you still think it is funny now that people are dying from it in the USA as well?
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It's another result of the hopeless deadness of years of political correctness killing off the delicate sensors that detect and identify different codes of human speech. Something about hammers and their ability to perceive the entirity of creation as a nail.
Thank goodness our Moderator is not a hammer.
;-)
Sorry, I am as far away from polticalcorrectness as anyone can be. I am simply against making bad taste jokes. Every country should be fighting this virus in the most efficient manner, people are dying in many countries. A modicum of respect should be exercised, but I see that is asking too much.
Stay safe.
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Thanks James Adams you and your family good health too.
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In the end keep in mind that even in the worst case scenario the overall chances are still in your favor, if you only get the coronavirus. It will be worse if you have something else but there are no beds in the hospital.
Let's hope that I'm unreasonably pessimistic about how this administration and things will be handled better. I sincerely hope that I'm wrong.
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In the end keep in mind that even in the worst case scenario the overall chances are still in your favor, if you only get the coronavirus. It will be worse if you have something else but there are no beds in the hospital.
Let's hope that I'm unreasonably pessimistic about how this administration and things will be handled better. I sincerely hope that I'm wrong.
You keep saying you don’t want political discussions about the virus, yet can’t seem to be able to pass a single opportunity for a dig at Trump?
Exactly how would this administration automagically create extra capacity in hospitals?
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James, thanks for your good wishes. The same to you.
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If I were living in America this statistic from The Guardian would worry me:
"What the US needs most is a serious, extensive programme of testing. Currently, the US is bottom of the global league table for coronavirus testing, at a rate of just five people in every million. (South Korea is testing 3,692 people per million.)"
Here in South Africa we have 17 infections and it looks like our government is doing as well as one could hope for. Our problem here is the very high rate of HIV cases who will be at as much at risk as the older folk.
I think this is going to get worse before it gets better.
May we all stay well!
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This is perhaps China propaganda video, but it shows
Doctors And Nurses Removed Their Masks After Wuhan Closes Of Last Temporary Hospital...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J7_sOPIi4f8
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Sorry, I am as far away from polticalcorrectness as anyone can be. I am simply against making bad taste jokes. Every country should be fighting this virus in the most efficient manner, people are dying in many countries. A modicum of respect should be exercised, but I see that is asking too much.
Stay safe.
Obviously, you didn't live near London or, alternatively, in the industrial areas of Britain during WW2. If you had, gallows humour would be second nature to you. When you go to bed and then wake up under a tin roof in the garden and stay there, bloody frozen, until that all-clear siren sounds, you won't get it. And that's just too bad. You can't dictate what types of humour are permissible; if you try, I'm sorry, that's exactly what political correctness is.
On the other hand, gallows humour aside, different countries have very different ideas of what constitutes humour. France24.com does a weekly show on what Frenchness means, and one that I saw dealt with what makes the French laugh. I couldn't even snigger. If you ask me what makes the Spanish laugh, I can only refer you to tv shows where people stand in a circle, and if they get something wrong, wham! they fall through a hole to the floor below the set. Very funny. I think.
:-)
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James, thanks for your good wishes. The same to you.
Indeed, James, trying my best to remain getting fed in public, and also remain quietly antisocial as usual at the same time. A polite distance is now acceptably de rigueur! If my few eateries close - seem to be busy after the winter closures (no winter tourists) - then indeed problems come home. How long can I live on soup, pasta and rice?
Best to you and yours, of course!
Rob
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You keep saying you don’t want political discussions about the virus, yet can’t seem to be able to pass a single opportunity for a dig at Trump?
It't not about politics, but about incompetency.
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Exactly how would this administration automagically create extra capacity in hospitals?
Well, it wouldn't be automatic, but the Department of Homeland Security (the Federal Emergency Management Agency) and the military both have the expertise to deploy temporary field hospitals―that might require a formal presidential declaration of a national emergency―and the federal government could issue funding grants to the states to distribute to hospitals within their respective jurisdictions to be used to configure more critical care facilities, purchase additional ventilators, etc. I haven't read or heard anything to indicate that these things are actually being done yet.
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Well, it wouldn't be automatic, but the Department of Homeland Security (the Federal Emergency Management Agency) and the military both have the expertise to deploy temporary field hospitals―that might require a formal presidential declaration of a national emergency―and the federal government could issue funding grants to the states to distribute to hospitals within their respective jurisdictions to be used to configure more critical care facilities, purchase additional ventilators, etc. I haven't read or heard anything to indicate that these things are actually being done yet.
Chris, Maybe you're getting ahead of the curve. There were 34 million cases of the flu last year in America in which 50,000 died. We didn't have to set up field hospitals. In any case where would you set up field hospitals when you don;t know where the ill will be? Do you want to set up hospotals in let's say Oklahome whehn most of the cases show up in Chicago, even assuming there are that many cases that CHicago hospitals and doctors can;t take care of the rpoblem. Also, once you set up field hospitals, where is the staff coming from? FEMA does;t have doctors or construction staff or anything. It has to come from the civilian resources which would have to be taken out of regular hospitals. So as you staff the new field hospitals, you remove doctors from ongoing operational hospitals.
I really don;t think you've thought this through.
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China reported 15 cases yesterday or today. Most of their businesses are back in business. Workers have gone back. They've had 90,000 cases only.
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You keep saying you don’t want political discussions about the virus, yet can’t seem to be able to pass a single opportunity for a dig at Trump?
Exactly how would this administration automagically create extra capacity in hospitals?
Well, your comment is an example of the problem. If I say something that this administration didn't do well, in your mind it has to be against Trump; if you are not with us, you are against us.
I didn't mention Trump, I don't particularly care now who was responsible for what but the overall actions. My main dig at Trump personally was minimizing things on TV/tweeter without actually knowing what he's talking about, or just lying, it doesn't really matter.
They did the initial right thing by stopping the flights from China but then it was a black hole; if they would have started more than a month ago with what they did in the last week, liberalizing the testing and developments of the testing to others than CDC we would have a better idea on who's who and how to direct resources. If you don't test, you don't know. It's not like other diseases where you could make a clinical diagnosis.
Right now, as a whole, the administration lapsed and are playing catch up. If you think this comment is about Trump, so be it. I can't separate the exact faults from where I am, in time will know more but this is not the time for blaming.
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It't not about politics, but about incompetency.
In America, it's all about politics. If you watch CNN and MSNBC who hate Trump, every comment and analysis is about how Trump failed and is failing to take care of this problem. Of course, it will all come out in the wash. If a month or two from now, we increase and then decrease in cases, and the stock market rebounds, he'll claim that he took care of the problem. Of course MSNBC and CNN will say he had nothing to do with ending the crisis, only starting it. If we're all sick on election day and the DOW is 9,000, then Biden will win.
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Well, your comment is an example of the problem. If I say something that this administration didn't do well, in your mind it has to be against Trump; if you are not with us, you are against us.
I didn't mention Trump, I don't particularly care now who was responsible for what but the overall actions. My main dig at Trump personally was minimizing things on TV/tweeter without actually knowing what he's talking about, or just lying, it doesn't really matter.
They did the initial right thing by stopping the flights from China but then it was a black hole; if they would have started more than a month ago with what they did in the last week, liberalizing the testing and developments of the testing to others than CDC we would have a better idea on who's who and how to direct resources. If you don't test, you don't know. It's not like other diseases where you could make a clinical diagnosis.
Right now, as a whole, the administration lapsed and are playing catch up. If you think this comment is about Trump, so be it. I can't separate the exact faults from where I am, in time will know more but this is not the time for blaming.
So Trump was smart enough to stop flights from China long before anyone else was talking about this virus in the middle of his impeachment when he had other things to think about. But somehow he doesn;t know or isn't smart enough to know what he's talking about and is lying. Yet you don't' really have an opinion on Trump or care that he's involved.
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So Trump was smart enough to stop flights from China long before anyone else was talking about this virus in the middle of his impeachment when he had other things to think about. But somehow he doesn;t know or isn't smart enough to know what he's talking about and is lying. Yet you don't' really have an opinion or Trump or care that he's involved.
Keep cherry picking my comments to prove your point.
Let me help you read: They did the initial right thing by stopping the flights from China but then it was a black hole; if they would have started more than a month ago with what they did in the last week, liberalizing the testing and developments of the testing to others than CDC we would have a better idea on who's who and how to direct resources. If you don't test, you don't know. It's not like other diseases where you could make a clinical diagnosis.. One good thing not followed by others it's not going to cut it; if you are able to add 1 + 1 and fail the next multiplication by 1 doesn't get you a passing grade outside of a Trump University. And where exactly do you see specifically Trump's name mentioned in those lines?
Either way, I knew this is going to happen if I make any negative comments about the supreme leader. He can do no wrong therefore all critics are far leftists trying to bring him down. I don't think you'll accept anything negative so this is just wasting time.
I'll keep my comments specifically to what is happening now, history will eventually show how things happened.
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Keep cherry picking my comments to prove your point.
Let me help you read: They did the initial right thing by stopping the flights from China but then it was a black hole; if they would have started more than a month ago with what they did in the last week, liberalizing the testing and developments of the testing to others than CDC we would have a better idea on who's who and how to direct resources. If you don't test, you don't know. It's not like other diseases where you could make a clinical diagnosis.. One good thing not followed by others it's not going to cut it; if you are able to add 1 + 1 and fail the next multiplication by 1 doesn't get you a passing grade outside of a Trump University. And where exactly do you see specifically Trump's name mentioned in those lines?
Either way, I knew this is going to happen if I make any negative comments about the supreme leader. He can do no wrong therefore all critics are far leftists trying to bring him down. I don't think you'll accept anything negative so this is just wasting time.
I'll keep my comments specifically to what is happening now, history will eventually show how things happened.
I may be cherry picking. But you;re Monday morning quarterbacking. You say Trump made the right call about stopping flights from China a month ago. But he screwed up on test kits. Well, my understanding is that our CDC screwed up the tests and found many of the ones they prepared to be not working. Was Trump supposed to know that? So now CDC apparently has gotten up to speed. In any case, no one would want to overblow the situation. He did stop travel from China long before anyone even thought of that or recommended it. Now he's stopped travel from Europe because of too many ill over there. I'm waiting for your post complaining about that somehow. The fact is he's damned if he does and damned if he doesn't.
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I may be cherry picking. But you;re Monday morning quarterbacking. You say Trump made the right call about stopping flights from China a month ago. But he screwed up on test kits. Well, my understanding is that our CDC screwed up the tests and found many of the ones they prepared to be not working. Was Trump supposed to know that? So now CDC apparently has gotten up to speed. In any case, no one would want to overblow the situation. He did stop travel from China long before anyone even thought of that or recommended it. Now he's stopped travel from Europe because of too many ill over there. I'm waiting for your post complaining about that somehow. The fact is he's damned if he does and damned if he doesn't.
Nope, just in your mind. Again, I didn't mention specifically Trump in all those decisions. I said the decision to close the border was the right one, and I seriously doubt it he did that on his own mind without any recommendations; same for the delay in taking actions after. You can't claim he is responsible for the positives but it's somebody's else fault if it's bad. They are in this together.
... I'm waiting for your post complaining about that somehow. ...
You should keep up:
...
In other order Trump suspended all flights from Europe. I think it's probably the right call but I'm afraid it's too late.
That is until I found out UK is not part of Europe according the that decision. I know Brexit gave some of them wings but geography is a bitch.
Maybe I'm wrong and this administration including Trump is the best possible and everything will be well. While I have my doubts about the last sentence I will be glad to be wrong (for once).
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Nope, just in your mind. Again, I didn't mention specifically Trump in all those decisions. I said the decision to close the border was the right one, and I seriously doubt it he did that on his own mind without any recommendations; same for the delay in taking actions after. You can't claim he is responsible for the positives but it's somebody's else fault if it's bad. They are in this together.
You should keep up:
That is until I found out UK is not part of Europe according the that decision. I know Brexit gave some of them wings but geography is a bitch.
Maybe I'm wrong and this administration including Trump is the best possible and everything will be well. While I have my doubts about the last sentence I will be glad to be wrong (for once).
You can't micromanage someone else's decisions like you're doing. Especially after the fact. I shoot film. I make decisions about exposure that cannot be verified until after the film is developed. Sometimes I bracket. But I miss a lot anyway. I'm not a fortune teller. I don't know the future. No one does.
Trump got the wheel moving a month ago and kicked it into high gear recently, mainly because of the political pressure of the election, frankly. That pressure may be causing us to shoot ourselves in the foot. I understand we may want to overshoot our reaction. At 75, it's a dangerous infection for me. . But, if we destroy our economy, children missing school, etc., just for the sake of irrational fear and a presidential election when the statistics don;t point to such a calamity, we're not helping the world either. After all, Democrats own 401k plans too. ;)
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I get it, the fear to overshoot might have been the main driver to take it slow; and undershot we did. Thing is if we alternate between undershoot to overshoot it's probably even worse. People can be wrong but you have to be flexible and try not to be wrong for a very long time. I get the feeling that being wrong it's the worst sin for this administration and it wastes way too many opportunities trying to prove they are not wrong. Nobody's perfect, move on.
Those articles on what's happening in Italy are very concerning and I believe they are the real thing. We cannot handle that level of disaster.
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So Trump was smart enough to stop flights from China long before anyone else was talking about this virus in the middle of his impeachment when he had other things to think about. But somehow he doesn;t know or isn't smart enough to know what he's talking about and is lying. Yet you don't' really have an opinion on Trump or care that he's involved.
Try going 5 minutes without mentioning TRUMP...enough already for F's sake.
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This violin playing tweet might have been a little insensitive https://www.huffingtonpost.ca/entry/donald-trump-nero-meme_n_5e658685c5b68d61645632c2?ri18n=true (https://www.huffingtonpost.ca/entry/donald-trump-nero-meme_n_5e658685c5b68d61645632c2?ri18n=true). It's hard to know what to think of this kind of post. What's the upside? What was the purpose?
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Italy’s Health Care System Groans Under Coronavirus — a Warning to the World https://nyti.ms/3cQroLw
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Try going 5 minutes without mentioning TRUMP...enough already for F's sake.
And exactly who can't spend 5 minutes without mentioning him!? You guys keep doing it. Like armand who points out he didn't mention him, but then in the next sentence uses "Supreme Leader."
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I get it, the fear to overshoot might have been the main driver to take it slow; and undershot we did. Thing is if we alternate between undershoot to overshoot it's probably even worse. People can be wrong but you have to be flexible and try not to be wrong for a very long time. I get the feeling that being wrong it's the worst sin for this administration and it wastes way too many opportunities trying to prove they are not wrong. Nobody's perfect, move on.
Those articles on what's happening in Italy are very concerning and I believe they are the real thing. We cannot handle that level of disaster.
Other European countries, including my own, Portugal, are trying to be proactive, instead of reactive. Even from 2 days ago, health authorities were reluctant in closing public schools (private ones have closed for a week now, including some universities). The plan was to close schools and public establishments on a basis of "if there is a confirmed case, we close it then".
The problem is, by the time a case is confirmed, at least 3 or 4 people have been infected already - from there, the spreading is impossible to contain. Thankfully, the CEDC in Europe yesterday recommended exactly to close down all schools, from all ages, plus bars, pubs, discos, and many restrictions in restaurants and supermarkets, restricting the number of people per area.
Many case are being found of people that were already hospitalized due to respiratory infections, and are now found to have Covid19 - who knows who they have talked or interacted with, including medical personnel who are much needed now to curtail this crisis.
I hope at least some countries can still implement measures on time to reduce the number of casualties. Even if the mortality rate ends up around 1%, that is still 10x higher than normal flu. Also, no health service in the world is prepared to assist a peak of pneumonia patients - which hospital can treat simultaneously say 100 cases per day? We know how to treat serious pneumonia for decades, but it is a matter of frequency and peaking.
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I've made no secret of my disdain for Trump. I think he is the scion and now leader of an organized crime family, that he suffers from at least one serious mental illness that endangers all of us (narcissistic personality disorder) that he is a buffoon, he cheats at golf, and has bad taste. But I don't think he's totally to blame for the mishandling of the Covid-19 epidemic. No President can really run the US government, although Trump has clearly proven that one really bad President can damage it. Trump has obviously been poorly supported by the medical establishment. Epidemiologists should have been screaming to the media instead of mumbling about it in papers and conferences, ever since it first began to spread in China. I'm an avid consumer of the media (an ex-reporter) and I really didn't hear much from those guys until a month or so ago. The head of Health and Human Services, who knew how bad this was going to get back in early January, first delegated his chief of staff to inform somebody on the National Security Council about it -- in other words, dump it into the bureaucracy where it takes weeks for anything to trickle out. He then waited even longer before he even talked to Trump directly (all part of a WAPO story.) The guy should have been screaming in Trump's ear the next day, after he learned about the China problem, and other advisors should have pushed Trump hard to get out in front of it. Instead, they appeared to think they only had a political problem, and let the real problem, the disease itself, boil up from underneath. If Trump in mid-Janary had gone out front and said, "We may have a problem not of our devising, but a problem nevertheless, and we have to do everything we can to protect ourselves, and I'm appointing the VP to manage the problem day by day," then everybody now would think he was actually doing a great job. Instead, he got a lot of bad advice and has spent the last two months stepping on his own dick, and it's almost like he's being blamed for the disease, rather than just being blamed for being his usual self (an inept bumbling fool.) What he and his advisors have blown here is the possibility that he might look like a true leader in a crisis that everybody could understand that he couldn't prevent. But he's *still* insisting that it's not going to be that bad, and he's exacerbating the inept bumbling fool judgment. To say it in a few words: he has been badly served by his underlings. Some of us thought that might happen in a true crisis, and now it has.
I saw this, https://www.politico.com/news/2020/03/12/trump-officials-coronavirus-127742 (https://www.politico.com/news/2020/03/12/trump-officials-coronavirus-127742), which addresses some of your points. I have no idea how complete a picture it represents.
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And exactly who can't spend 5 minutes without mentioning him!? You guys keep doing it. Like armand who points out he didn't mention him, but then in the next sentence uses "Supreme Leader."
Fair point about the supreme leader, it's my jab to the fact that nobody can say anything even remotely contradictory to him, in his administration or elsewhere (such as here) before being shut down or jumped upon. Just take a look a your motto with the thinking.
But I'm done, I shall mention the one whose name won't be said no more in this topic, at least for a while.
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Fair point about the supreme leader, it's my jab to the fact that nobody can say anything even remotely contradictory to him, in his administration or elsewhere (such as here) before being shut down or jumped upon. Just take a look a your motto with the thinking.
But I'm done, I shall mention the one whose name won't be said no more in this topic, at least for a while.
So you had to have a parting shot, one more last jab. And then you ask why we have to keep defending Trump. Well, collusion with Russians, paying off bimbos, taxes, obstruction of justice, emoluments, and even impeachment hasn't gotten him. But maybe coronavirus will. Gotta admit, you keep trying.
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So you had to have a parting shot, one more last jab. And then you ask why we have to keep defending Trump. Well, collusion with Russians, paying off bimbos, taxes, obstruction of justice, emoluments, and even impeachment hasn't gotten him. But maybe coronavirus will. Gotta admit, you keep trying.
That’s one resume any leader would be proud of.
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That’s one resume any leader would be proud of.
He's like the Eveready bunny or that watch: Takes a lickin' but keeps on tickin'. I don;t think Biden could stand up to the pressure.
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He's like the Eveready bunny or that watch: Takes a lickin' but keeps on tickin'. I don;t think Biden could stand up to the pressure.
Maybe Biden does not have to payoff bimbos.
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Maybe Biden does not have to payoff bimbos.
Well, he got his son's Burisma Ukraine fiasco to deal with and explain.
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Well, he got his son's Burisma Ukraine fiasco to deal with and explain.
Fake news...
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Fake news...
Who knows. However, everything seems to have gone silent on the subject since Trump's acquittal. I did read that the Senate GOP head of some committee or another decided not to subpoena Hunter Biden. Maybe he is just deferring doing so until after the conventions.
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In the light of the current toilet paper craze across the world:
"Softness without borders"
"It does support migrants"
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So you had to have a parting shot, one more last jab. And then you ask why we have to keep defending Trump. Well, collusion with Russians, paying off bimbos, taxes, obstruction of justice, emoluments, and even impeachment hasn't gotten him. But maybe coronavirus will. Gotta admit, you keep trying.
You are delusional. Unfortunately not uncommon, if you are not with us then you are against us. With this approach no wonder common ground is a rare sight.
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You are delusional. Unfortunately not uncommon, if you are not with us then you are against us. With this approach no wonder common ground is a rare sight.
I just heard Nancy Pelosi telling the press. "It's all about test kits. Test kits. Test kits." It's all about politics. This is election season. Meanwhile, Trump on the other side is going to declare a national state of emergency to show his presidential strength asking the hidden question: Do you want a strong president, who's tough and gruff and still has it or "Sleepy Joe" who's taking a nap?
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I just heard Nancy Pelosi telling the press. "It's all about test kits. Test kits. Test kits." It's all about politics. This is election season. Meanwhile, Trump on the other side is going to declare a national state of emergency to show his presidential strength asking the hidden question: Do you want a strong president, who's tough and gruff and still has it or "Sleepy Joe" who's taking a nap?
Isn't this that same Trump that said last week the virus was nothing...just like the yearly flu...will go away by April? Why a week later is he twirling like a top and calling for a National emergency...what is it a little itchy nose or an emergency.
What spin should we expect next week?
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I just heard Nancy Pelosi telling the press. "It's all about test kits. Test kits. Test kits." It's all about politics. This is election season. Meanwhile, Trump on the other side is going to declare a national state of emergency to show his presidential strength asking the hidden question: Do you want a strong president, who's tough and gruff and still has it or "Sleepy Joe" who's taking a nap?
I’ll take Biden. He isn’t the president yet so what is he supposed to do? When he has spoken about the pandemic, he has spoken of the needs of people.
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I’ll take Biden. He isn’t the president yet so what is he supposed to do? When he has spoken about the pandemic, he has spoken of the needs of people.
Sharon, save your fingertips - you will never convince the zealot: of course it's about kits and the lack thereof; and yes, that is also politics because a political decision is why you don't have 'em, as Pelosi is telling the world.
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I just finished watching Trump declare a national emergency, as he put it: "two very big words." A very stable genius. So much fodder for SNL.
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I thought I said there were politics on both sides. Thanks for acknowledging that I said that.
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I’ll take Biden. He isn’t the president yet so what is he supposed to do? When he has spoken about the pandemic, he has spoken of the needs of people.
Biden? The same Biden who just said he would not bother to close borders and restrict travel even after all medical experts said it was a good thing and likely slowed the spread?
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... of course it's about kits and the lack thereof; and yes, that is also politics because a political decision is why you don't have 'em...
Can you support that with any evidence?
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He's like the Eveready bunny or that watch: Takes a lickin' but keeps on tickin'. I don;t think Biden could stand up to the pressure.
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Chez, great response.
;D ;D ;D ;D
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I just finished watching Trump declare a national emergency, as he put it: "two very big words." A very stable genius. So much fodder for SNL.
I thought the line he will "most likely" get tested is also rife with comedic possibilities.
Like why the hell would he not get tested? Is testing going to interfere with his daily tanning regiment, take away from his orange complexion? And how far down the most likely direction is he leaning on this?
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The point is, you can defend Trump anyway you want, but this is the man who bragged about having grabbed women by the crotch. I will never understand how this was overlooked. If you have ever had a man grab you this way you would know what a horrible invasion this is. People who voted for and support Trump were willing to endorse this. I could never think someone this vile was fit for the presidency.
He says hateful things about women on twitter all the time. Comments about how they look, etc. A total pig toward women. I don’t want a tough, gruff president. I want an intelligent, compassionate president who cares about all Americans.
Any decent person will agree with that.
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I thought the line he will "most likely" get tested is also rife if comedic possibilities.
Like why the hell would he not get tested? Is testing going to interfere with his daily tanning regiment, take away from his orange complexion? And how far down the most likely direction is he leaning on this?
The scuttlebutt I heard was that he thought by testing he would appear weak, but it is anyone's guess. If he gets the coronavirus, we'll know soon enough. Ivanka is self-quarantining at home because she came in contact with someone who tested positive.
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The scuttlebutt I heard was that he thought by testing he would appear weak, but it is anyone's guess. If he gets the coronavirus, we'll know soon enough. Ivanka is self-quarantining at home because she came in contact with someone who tested positive.
Well look on the bright, if Trump contracts this and dies, the liberals will get what they have been calling for since day one, Mike Pence as president. Someone even more conservative and religious; he does not even allow himself in the same room with a woman by himself.
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Can you support that with any evidence?
The evidence is self-evident: the US was deprived of kits, as in yes, we have no bananas.
That's why your man is pretending he hasn't been tested (as if!): it would look bad for him to have had access where his faithful flock did not. Nice thought: Trump, the good shepherd.
Really, Slobodan, you know better than this. Look after that throat and chest, and have the hot orange juice. And if you can find it, try some of that shag music out of Big Wave Radio in Rockingham, North Carolina. Makes everything much sweeter.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=zZYOJQ79DOw
:-)
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... The point is, you can defend Trump anyway you want, but this is the man who bragged about having grabbed women by the crotch. I will never understand how this was overlooked. If you have ever had a man grab you this way you would know what a horrible invasion this is. People who voted for and support Trump were willing to endorse this. I could never think someone this vile was fit for the presidency.
He says hateful things about women on twitter all the time. Comments about how they look, etc. A total pig toward women...
That doesn't make him a pig... just observant. If you look like a fat cow, someone will spell it out.
As for grabbing, he didn't do it in a gas station to unknown women (he has a good taste). Women that came that close to him came there to be grabbed,
And yes, we want a real man for President, not some sissy.
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The evidence is self-evident: the US was deprived of kits...
In other words, you invented it. Fake news.
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That doesn't make him a pig... just observant. If you look like a fat cow, someone will spell it out.
As for grabbing, he didn't do it in a gas station to unknown women (he has a good taste). Women that came that close to him came there to be grabbed,
And yes, we want a real man for President, not some sissy.
So what you equate someone who grabs a woman's crotch as a real man and not a sissy?
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In other words, you invented it. Fake news.
Well tell me why the USA is so far behind in testing for the virus.
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Jan. 22: “We have it totally under control.”
Jan. 24: “It will all work out well.”
Jan. 29: “Just received a briefing on the Coronavirus in China from all of our GREAT agencies, who are also working closely with China. We will continue to monitor the ongoing developments. We have the best experts anywhere in the world, and they are on top of it 24/7!”
Jan. 30: “We think we have it very well under control. We have very little problem in this country at this moment — five. And those people are all recuperating successfully. But we’re working very closely with China and other countries, and we think it’s going to have a very good ending for it. So that I can assure you.”
Feb. 2: “Well, we pretty much shut it down coming in from China. … We can’t have thousands of people coming in who may have this problem, the coronavirus. So we’re gonna see what happens, but we did shut it down, yes.”
Feb. 7: “Nothing is easy, but [Chinese President Xi Jinping] … will be successful, especially as the weather starts to warm & the virus hopefully becomes weaker, and then gone.”
Feb. 10: “I think the virus is going to be — it’s going to be fine.”
Feb. 14: “We have a very small number of people in the country, right now, with it. It’s like around 12. Many of them are getting better. Some are fully recovered already. So we’re in very good shape.”
Feb. 24: “The Coronavirus is very much under control in the USA. … Stock Market starting to look very good to me!”
Feb. 25: “You may ask about the coronavirus, which is very well under control in our country. We have very few people with it, and the people that have it are … getting better. They’re all getting better. … As far as what we’re doing with the new virus, I think that we’re doing a great job.”
Feb. 25: “CDC and my Administration are doing a GREAT job of handling Coronavirus, including the very early closing of our borders to certain areas of the world.”
Feb. 27: “Only a very small number in U.S., & China numbers look to be going down. All countries working well together!”
Feb. 28: “I think it’s really going well. We did something very fortunate: we closed up to certain areas of the world very, very early — far earlier than we were supposed to. I took a lot of heat for doing it. It turned out to be the right move, and we only have 15 people and they are getting better, and hopefully they’re all better. There’s one who is quite sick, but maybe he’s gonna be fine. … We’re prepared for the worst, but we think we’re going to be very fortunate."
Feb. 28: “It’s going to disappear. One day, it’s like a miracle, it will disappear.”
Feb. 29: “We’re the number-one travel destination anywhere in the world, yet we have far fewer cases of the disease than even countries with much less travel or a much smaller population.”
March 4: “Some people will have this at a very light level and won’t even go to a doctor or hospital, and they’ll get better. There are many people like that.”
March 5: “With approximately 100,000 CoronaVirus cases worldwide, and 3,280 deaths, the United States, because of quick action on closing our borders, has, as of now, only 129 cases (40 Americans brought in) and 11 deaths.”
March 6: “We did an interview on Fox last night, a town hall. I think it was very good. And I said, ‘Calm. You have to be calm. It’ll go away.' ”
March 7: “It came out of China, and we heard about it. And made a good move: We closed it down; we stopped it. Otherwise — the head of CDC said last night that you would have thousands of more problems if we didn’t shut it down very early. That was a very early shutdown, which is something we got right."
March 8: Retweets a story about Surgeon General Jerome Adams playing down the risk of coronavirus for Trump personally.
March 9: “The Fake News Media and their partner, the Democrat Party, is doing everything within its semi-considerable power (it used to be greater!) to inflame the CoronaVirus situation, far beyond what the facts would warrant. Surgeon General, ‘The risk is low to the average American.’ ”
March 10: “As you know, it’s about 600 cases, it’s about 26 deaths, within our country. And had we not acted quickly, that number would have been substantially more.”
March 10: “And it hit the world. And we’re prepared, and we’re doing a great job with it. And it will go away. Just stay calm. It will go away.”
March 11: “I think we’re going to get through it very well.”
March 12: “It’s going to go away. ... The United States, because of what I did and what the administration did with China, we have 32 deaths at this point … when you look at the kind of numbers that you’re seeing coming out of other countries, it’s pretty amazing when you think of it.”
https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2020/03/12/trump-coronavirus-timeline/
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That doesn't make him a pig... just observant. If you look like a fat cow, someone will spell it out.
As for grabbing, he didn't do it in a gas station to unknown women (he has a good taste). Women that came that close to him came there to be grabbed,
And yes, we want a real man for President, not some sissy.
A real man treats people with respect.
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That doesn't make him a pig... just observant. If you look like a fat cow, someone will spell it out.
As for grabbing, he didn't do it in a gas station to unknown women (he has a good taste). Women that came that close to him came there to be grabbed,
And yes, we want a real man for President, not some sissy.
Moderator: Are we expected to swallow this level of invective without protest?
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Jan. 22: “We have it totally under control.”
Jan. 24: “It will all work out well.”
Jan. 29: “Just received a briefing on the Coronavirus in China from all of our GREAT agencies, who are also working closely with China. We will continue to monitor the ongoing developments. We have the best experts anywhere in the world, and they are on top of it 24/7!”
Jan. 30: “We think we have it very well under control. We have very little problem in this country at this moment — five. And those people are all recuperating successfully. But we’re working very closely with China and other countries, and we think it’s going to have a very good ending for it. So that I can assure you.”
Feb. 2: “Well, we pretty much shut it down coming in from China. … We can’t have thousands of people coming in who may have this problem, the coronavirus. So we’re gonna see what happens, but we did shut it down, yes.”
Feb. 7: “Nothing is easy, but [Chinese President Xi Jinping] … will be successful, especially as the weather starts to warm & the virus hopefully becomes weaker, and then gone.”
Feb. 10: “I think the virus is going to be — it’s going to be fine.”
Feb. 14: “We have a very small number of people in the country, right now, with it. It’s like around 12. Many of them are getting better. Some are fully recovered already. So we’re in very good shape.”
Feb. 24: “The Coronavirus is very much under control in the USA. … Stock Market starting to look very good to me!”
Feb. 25: “You may ask about the coronavirus, which is very well under control in our country. We have very few people with it, and the people that have it are … getting better. They’re all getting better. … As far as what we’re doing with the new virus, I think that we’re doing a great job.”
Feb. 25: “CDC and my Administration are doing a GREAT job of handling Coronavirus, including the very early closing of our borders to certain areas of the world.”
Feb. 27: “Only a very small number in U.S., & China numbers look to be going down. All countries working well together!”
Feb. 28: “I think it’s really going well. We did something very fortunate: we closed up to certain areas of the world very, very early — far earlier than we were supposed to. I took a lot of heat for doing it. It turned out to be the right move, and we only have 15 people and they are getting better, and hopefully they’re all better. There’s one who is quite sick, but maybe he’s gonna be fine. … We’re prepared for the worst, but we think we’re going to be very fortunate."
Feb. 28: “It’s going to disappear. One day, it’s like a miracle, it will disappear.”
Feb. 29: “We’re the number-one travel destination anywhere in the world, yet we have far fewer cases of the disease than even countries with much less travel or a much smaller population.”
March 4: “Some people will have this at a very light level and won’t even go to a doctor or hospital, and they’ll get better. There are many people like that.”
March 5: “With approximately 100,000 CoronaVirus cases worldwide, and 3,280 deaths, the United States, because of quick action on closing our borders, has, as of now, only 129 cases (40 Americans brought in) and 11 deaths.”
March 6: “We did an interview on Fox last night, a town hall. I think it was very good. And I said, ‘Calm. You have to be calm. It’ll go away.' ”
March 7: “It came out of China, and we heard about it. And made a good move: We closed it down; we stopped it. Otherwise — the head of CDC said last night that you would have thousands of more problems if we didn’t shut it down very early. That was a very early shutdown, which is something we got right."
March 8: Retweets a story about Surgeon General Jerome Adams playing down the risk of coronavirus for Trump personally.
March 9: “The Fake News Media and their partner, the Democrat Party, is doing everything within its semi-considerable power (it used to be greater!) to inflame the CoronaVirus situation, far beyond what the facts would warrant. Surgeon General, ‘The risk is low to the average American.’ ”
March 10: “As you know, it’s about 600 cases, it’s about 26 deaths, within our country. And had we not acted quickly, that number would have been substantially more.”
March 10: “And it hit the world. And we’re prepared, and we’re doing a great job with it. And it will go away. Just stay calm. It will go away.”
March 11: “I think we’re going to get through it very well.”
March 12: “It’s going to go away. ... The United States, because of what I did and what the administration did with China, we have 32 deaths at this point … when you look at the kind of numbers that you’re seeing coming out of other countries, it’s pretty amazing when you think of it.”
https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2020/03/12/trump-coronavirus-timeline/
Now that's someone I want to fall in line and follow. Talk about being totally incompetent. What a f'ing joke.
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Moderator: Are we expected to swallow this level of invective without protest?
I normally would not get in the middle this, especially since Slobo obviously stepped in it here.
However, I find it disconcerting in our current political climate that one can be offend here but be perfectly fine with a blanketed prejudicial statement that all Trump voters "were willing to endorse this," with "this" being grabbing women's crotches. Thus implying every Trump voter is immoral while completely ignoring the realities of having only a binary option where it is impossible for either choice to be perfect.
You either admonish both or neither. Or do what I did, make a subtle joke at the poster's expense and move on.
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I normally would not get in the middle this, especially since Slobo obviously stepped in it here.
However, I find it disconcerting in our current political climate that one can be offend here but be perfectly fine with a blanketed prejudicial statement that all Trump voters "were willing to endorse this," with "this" being grabbing women's crotches. Thus implying every Trump voter is immoral while completely ignoring the realities of having only a binary option where it is impossible for either choice to be perfect.
You either admonish both or neither. Or do what I did, make a subtle joke at the poster's expense and move on.
A person is not separate from their character. If you know a candidate has said what Trump said, you can’t say I vote for the man but not his character. So I do think you have to own that. He thinks he can say anything. It’s his supporters responsibility to hold his feet to the fire.
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A person is not separate from their character. If you know a candidate has said what Trump said, you can’t say I vote for the man but not his character. So I do think you have to own that. He thinks he can say anything. It’s his supporters responsibility to hold his feet to the fire.
If his supporters don't keep him in check...then who?
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A person is not separate from their character. If you know a candidate has said what Trump said, you can’t say I vote for the man but not his character. So I do think you have to own that. He thinks he can say anything. It’s his supporters responsibility to hold his feet to the fire.
I agree that Trump says things that make you squirm at times. And I'm no choir boy having grown up in NYC and lived in Queens where the president did. But his earlier comments about women was locker room talk made in private and secretly recorded. Both men and women often talk in hard sexual terms at times. Probably his philandering at times is more to your point.
However, since he's gone public, as president, he seems to have kept the highest moral basis between himself and his wife and has an exemplary relationship with his children and family. While we all want our president to maintain the highest moral character, they're also human and we often let those things pass if they are effective leaders and get the job done. Being president is not like being head of the local temperance movement. A president has to know how to be tough, decisive and effective. He has to have shown the ability to get things done.
Trump has those qualities as well. Nothing's perfect. You have to take the bad with the good. After all, we have to compare leaders to their competitors. And certainly, Hillary was no model for honesty, fairness and moral turpitude. By the way, Biden's no choir boy either and has many warts as well. So unless you plan on staying home, you're going to have to pick a candidate who probably won't meet your standards. Such is life.
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A person is not separate from their character. If you know a candidate has said what Trump said, you can’t say I vote for the man but not his character. So I do think you have to own that. He thinks he can say anything. It’s his supporters responsibility to hold his feet to the fire.
No, you're wrong!
Voting for someone is not the same as choosing to be friends with that same person. If I chose to be friends with Trump, I would understand your moral argument here with the context of guilt by association. Additionally, if there was concrete evidence of physical unethical behavior like with Roy Moore or Katie Hill, I would also tend to agree with you.
But all we have is braggadocio that was more then likely nothing but locker room banter. Although certainly not appropriate, not something you have the right to hang over the heads of all people who voted for Trump. Especially given the option to choose between only two different candidates, both with serious character flaws.
I'll end with this. Should we assume that every Hillary voter not only needs to own but also endorse vindictively publicly destroying and shaming sexual assault victims, because that is what Hillary did to all of Bill's accusers, and I don't remember her ever apologizing for it. I just cant believe this was so over looked, right? And don't give the excuse that it was a long time ago, because the Trump quote you have problems was also from a long time ago.
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No I’m not wrong. I have a different opinion. I hope our next president will make America good again.
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No I’m not wrong. I have a different opinion. I hope our next president will make America good again.
But America has never stopped being good.
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No I’m not wrong. I have a different opinion. I hope our next president will make America good again.
Yet you wont answer my question. Do own Hillary's actions like you insist I own Trump's?. Do you enforce your sense of morality you direct towards conservatives onto yourself?
Do you own and endorse the public shaming of sexual assault victims, like Hillary did to all of Bill's accusers?
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When did I say I supported Hilary?
Okay, lets say Hillary voters then.
Do you accuse all Hillary voters of owning and endorsing the public shaming of sexual assault victims? Yes or no?
You don't need to say if you voted for Hillary or not. But if you cant hold Hillary voters to same standards you are holding Trump voters to, over pretty much the same thing, sexual assault, your argument has no validity.
Like I said to Peter, either you admonish both, or you cant admonish either.
PS
FYI, I personally don't insist either Hillary voters nor Trump voters own their candidates words, nor judge them personally immoral for voting for either. Doing so would be unproductive, plus if we truly did, I doubt anyone would ever be considered fit for office nor would anyone ever be fit to vote.
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Okay, lets say Hillary voters then.
Do you accuse all Hillary voters of owning and endorsing the public shaming of sexual assault victims?
Hillary is not the president. If she were I would expect her supporters to require her to behave in a presidential manner and respect ALL Americans - women, people of color, immigrants, poor people. We have to choose between two imperfect people every election. You should be willing to hold the candidate you vote for accountable.
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We aren’t going to agree so there is no reason to continue this. Im not saying that petulantly. I just don’t want to be in strife.
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Hillary is not the president. If she were I would expect her supporters to require her to behave in a presidential manner and respect ALL Americans - women, people of color, immigrants, poor people. We have to choose between two imperfect people every election. You should be willing to hold the candidate you vote for accountable.
Yet all of these things would examples of actions within her presidency, not before it, unlike the primary Trump quote you have issue with. It is not an apples to apples comparison.
I also don't buy your copout of Hillary not being the president. You whole basis on this particular immorality is solely based on the action of voting. Just as many, actually a little more, took the same action in regards to Hillary. Your litmus test here applies to Hillary voters just as much as to Trump voters regardless of who won.
Anyway, like I said before, you cant admonish one and not the other. There is no virtue in it and reeks of hypocrisy.
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Well who said i didnt think she was wrong? You make all kind of assumptions. You have called me a liberal. I am not.
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I was a life-long Texan until I moved to Nantucket in 2004. I am more conservative than liberal.
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Trump could walk on water and opponents would complain that he's doing that because he doesn't know how to swim.
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I would agree that there is a knee jerk reaction to much of what he does that isn't fair.
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Like I said to Peter, either you admonish both, or you cant admonish either.
You may have mis-read my post. If so, I'd appreciate it if you re-read it.
To be clear, the invective I referred to came from Slobodan, not Trump.