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Author Topic: Leica S2 Pricing  (Read 91892 times)

gwhitf

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Leica S2 Pricing
« Reply #140 on: August 02, 2009, 04:01:36 pm »

Quote from: Franzl
for my part, I rather have a different system with me as backup...what happens, when somethings happens to the photocase...if some lenses are destroyed, what does a second body helps...a 5DII with 2 lenses will resecue almost any job...

and for I can tell you from my expierence, that art directors care which system you are using...customers also do...not often, but from time to time...

the extra service is a joke if you ask me...and I wouldn't by 2 S2 bodies...don't know what for...just gonna keep my canon system as backup...

Judging by your post, if the Art Director truly cares what camera you're shooting, and you think that there's a real chance that an elephant is going to stomp on your camera bag, thus crushing the first set of Leica lenses, then what you need is actually two Leica s2 bodies, and two sets of Leica lenses. Because, God forbid that Mr Giant Purchase Order Art Director is going to see you shooting the Canon camera.

Come on into my Leasing Office, and let's sit down and figure this one up. Can I get you a cup of coffee, (or a reacharound)? I think you're doing the right thing to stick with the Leica brand, because appearance is important, especially nowadays in this current economy. Now where did I place my little Calculator? Gosh, we have a little problem here -- my Calculator only goes to five digits, and given that you need two sets of everything, that now puts us over the $100,000 mark, and we're into six digits. Let me run into my Sales Manager's office -- he's got the big Calculator. I'm not sure what you still owe on that Miami condo, but we're running a Promotion now, (until the camera actually ships): An even swap, title for title, between the system you want (read: need), and that beachfront condo on Collins Avenue.
« Last Edit: August 02, 2009, 04:05:10 pm by gwhitf »
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Franzl

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« Reply #141 on: August 02, 2009, 04:21:20 pm »

Quote from: gwhitf
Judging by your post, if the Art Director truly cares what camera you're shooting, and you think that there's a real chance that an elephant is going to stomp on your camera bag, thus crushing the first set of Leica lenses, then what you need is actually two Leica s2 bodies, and two sets of Leica lenses. Because, God forbid that Mr Giant Purchase Order Art Director is going to see you shooting the Canon camera.

Come on into my Leasing Office, and let's sit down and figure this one up. Can I get you a cup of coffee, (or a reacharound)? I think you're doing the right thing to stick with the Leica brand, because appearance is important, especially nowadays in this current economy. Now where did I place my little Calculator? Gosh, we have a little problem here -- my Calculator only goes to five digits, and given that you need two sets of everything, that now puts us over the $100,000 mark, and we're into six digits. Let me run into my Sales Manager's office -- he's got the big Calculator. I'm not sure what you still owe on that Miami condo, but we're running a Promotion now, (until the camera actually ships): An even swap, title for title, between the system you want (read: need), and that beachfront condo on Collins Avenue.

maybe you got me wrong...not in the position to buy a system like that right now and neither would I buy a system like that right now...just saying that the S2 isn't as expensive as everyone is saying (at least from my point of view)...

and about the AD stuff...just telling you what I have seen on shootings where I was assisting (jup, still a young guy)...sometimes MP just counts, that is why you need DMF and this is why you cannot shoot with a Canon...you won't need a 60MP Back for a small little flyer...but for bigger stuff 37MP or 39MP does matter...and I don't care what everyone is saying about Leica yada yada...just asking why Leica is so expensive from your point of view compared to other systems...at least here in Germany it doesn't sound that bad (Euro - USD conversion definitely make it worse for US customers)...
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dfarkas

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« Reply #142 on: August 02, 2009, 04:27:23 pm »

Quote from: yaya
David, has any of these people questioned you regarding tethered workflow functions and performance, such as press-to-preview time, buffer performance, overlay/ layout/ grid facility and system requirements (PC/ Mac/ USB/ FW etc.) or are they eager enough to throw their proven+working solutions without caring about what the replacement is like?

Of course. Anyone considering a purchase of this amount is going to want as much information as they can get to make an informed decision. Some of my customers are switching for the very reason that they can't stand the workflow through Phocus and have dreamed about being able to go straight into CS4 or LR.  Many photographers are already familiar with LR workflow and appreciate its digital asset management tools. The nature of the tethering solution from Leica is such that for photographers who want to use C1, they can. Open DNG standard (which C1 supports) with non-proprietary tethering s/w makes this possible. If Phocus supports DNG and hot folders, they could use that as well. Remember that no DAC or LCC corrections are necessary, so the user has ultimate choice for his or her preferred workflow.

Detailed tech specs will be available in less than two weeks, and I'm sure we'll get more tethering specific info at that time as well.  

For some, tethering is just not part of their needs. For them, the S2 represents a freedom to go outside and be portable. For one of my customers, he will be taking the S2 on a three month trek through the Alaskan wilderness for his next book project. A traditional MFD solution just wouldn't work in this environment. Many others shooting on location will just be using an untethered workflow, as well, similiar to the way one would work with a D3x or 1DsIII.

Quote
- I agree with gwhitf on the definition of a "system" - I know very few people who buy a new MF camera with less than 2-3 lenses. Let's not forget that lenses for current MF cameras can be found 2nd hand and in many places are available in rental.

Of course, I agree to the definition of a system as well. My point was to illustrate that decisions at this level are serious ones. A camera with all 4 lenses would be $45,600. Some on my list only need two, some will get three, and a few are looking at all four and/or future lenses. Everyone's needs are different. A photographer I spoke to yesterday explained that he would only need a 30-90 for all of the work he does and would be replacing his existing MFD system. An architectural photographer I spoke to only needs the 35 to start, with the 24 later on. I've also spoken to some of the rental studios here in Miami and there is interest in the system. So, you'll probably be able to find an extra lens or backup body at rental, if needed.

Quote
- Lightest? Has anyone actually weighed a working production unit with 3 lenses and compared it to an equivalent Mamiya AFDII/ III?

I've weighed an H3DII at 3.8lbs without a lens. The S2 is 2.7lbs. H lenses and S lenses are very similiar in weight. The Mamiya is a bit on the heavy side due to still using AA batteries to power the camera.

Quote
- Any reason why the CS lenses don't go beyond 1/500, knowing that the shutters are smaller than those made for other 645/ 6X6 cameras?

The CS lenes don't go beyond 1/500th becuase Leica is able to achieve this speed at all apertures. In other words, the shutter would be capable of syncing faster at certain apertures, but is being limited so that 1/500th is consistent across the entire range. This is not how Hasselblad rates their sync speed. Instead, they use True Exposure in which "extremely fast exposures are compensated for with a marginal adjustment to the aperture, in order to keep the generated exposure independent of aperture setting. Only the fastest  shutter speed combined with the smallest aperture setting could result in slightly flawed exposures, but fortunately this is a combination that rarely occurs." (taken from Hasselblad white paper on leaf shutters in HC lenses) 1/800th sounds better for marketing purposes, but for me, I'd rather know that the shutter speed and aperture I select won't be changed by the camera.

Quote
- Good LCD is useless if the preview shown on it is not good. I am not saying the one on the S2 is not good but it's not proven

The preview is very good. Playback and zoom to 100% are both instaneous, with no hourglass, pixelization, etc. The screen is 460K pixels(same res as iPhone screen), features image brightness adjustment, backlight intensity (discreet adjustments), and an ambient light sensor. The camera is capable of on-the-fly JPG rendering, so on-screen previews are fully rendered at 100%.


Quote
- AF performance: again this will have to be tested against the H system

Agree about the AF performance. All initial accounts and my personal experience say that it should be as good or better than the H3, and certainly much faster than pin-driven, motorless lens from Mamiya.

Quote
- Mirror slap: needs to be proven in files...

While the mirror slap will have to be shown in files as you suggest, anyone can immediately tell that the shutter is much better damped, faster, with less black-out, and far less vibration in the body. This will be pretty clear when people start using the S2.

Quote
As I represent no one but myself here, I am just questioning the real target market for this new system. Time will tell I guess.

Agreed. Time will tell after tech specs are provided, images are shown, comparisons are done, and photographers start using the S2.

David





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BernardLanguillier

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« Reply #143 on: August 02, 2009, 05:39:56 pm »

Quote from: dfarkas
I am not trying to "sell" you guys on the S2. I honestly think that the camera has done a great job of selling itself already. It is not for everyone, just as a $40K P65+ isn't for everyone, or an $11K Profoto Pro-8a power pack, or an $11K Profoto 10' Para Umbrella, etc. I know that many would like to have a chance to use the S2, and would like the price to be under $15K. I'd like a Porsche Cayman S to be the same price as an Accord, but I doubt going on a Porsche forum and convincing everyone there that the Cayman should sell for $25K is going to change anything. A Porsche is a Porsche and priced as such. Likewise, the S2 offers a certain value proposition to photographers and is also priced accordingly.

David,

Glad to read that you have had good succes with the S2. Good for you if your customers understand the value for them in ways that make the price premium a non issue, it speaks heaps about your abilities as a VAR I would think.

Now, as far as your car analogy goes, the gap in performance between a S2 and D3x is probably much smaller than what you can find between an Accord and a Porsche... yet the price ratio is about the same. I will rent a S2 here in Tokyo when it becomes availalbe to try it for real world landscape applications but I really don't see how the S2 lenses could be significantly superior to the Zeiss 100mm f2.0 I have been using on 90% of my landscape images through stitching... not to mention wide where Leica is unlikely to be able to even reach the level of quality defined by Nikon with their 14-24 f2.8.

Finally, as far as image quality goes, LR being made available as a converter is not such a good news. Although the workflow is great, it lags significantly behind other tools like C1 Pro in terms of quality of conversions. Let's hope that C1 and Raw Developper support the S2 DNG well...

Cheers,
Bernard

eronald

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« Reply #144 on: August 02, 2009, 05:41:23 pm »

Quote from: yaya
As I represent no one but myself here, I am just questioning the real target market for this new system. Time will tell I guess.

eh? did you get phamiya'd already?

Edmund
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Deep

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« Reply #145 on: August 02, 2009, 06:28:49 pm »

The internet is full of negativity before a product is launched.  I remember the naysayers when folk discovered the Olympus E-P1 wouldn't have a built-in flash or viewfinder - yet that camera is selling like hot-cakes.

Could something similar be happening here?  Who makes a weather sealed, manageable, medium format digital system that I could take into the bush with me or be happy to carry for a day on my back?  That I could still use for commercial shoots because the quality is right up there, the speed and focus are all up to the task and the lenses are usable wide open?  As far as I can see, no-one.  Lecia at least promises this with the S2 so we wait to see if it delivers before we knock it, surely?  This is something different and appealing.  Sure it's expensive but it's not ten times as expensive as anything else, not even the most expensive system out there.

I never shoot tethered, I only use a tripod maybe 5% of the time.  I fully understand that this camera has appeal, more so than the 35mm alternatives for certain types of photographers and much more than the detachable-back dirt magnets on the market today.

OK, we don't know if the S2 will be that good in practice but, equally, we don't know it won't, so why sling off at it now?  Doesn't make sense to me!  

Don
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Nick Rains

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« Reply #146 on: August 02, 2009, 06:53:08 pm »

Quote from: BernardLanguillier
I really don't see how the S2 lenses could be significantly superior to the Zeiss 100mm f2.0 I have been using on 90% of my landscape images through stitching...

Imagine what the S2 could do using the 120mm for your stitched images    


I mostly agree with you about the A2 print comparison - whilst it's possible to see differences between (in my case) the 5D2 and the P45 in an A2 print, the differences are subtle, being mostly to do with better tonality rather than raw resolution. However, above that size the differences become apparent very quickly so either you spend a great deal of time stitching or you invest in a bigger sensor.

So, it's clear that dSLRs compare very favorably with MFDBs in many circumstances, that's not in dispute here. I think there is also no dispute that the S2 will be a very fine camera, if not the best of it's class. What seems to be in dispute here is the 'value' that this camera represents - and since that depends entirely on an individual's taste, needs and circumstances I simply don't get this harping on about the price.

Leica has always been expensive, what else is new?
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gwhitf

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« Reply #147 on: August 02, 2009, 07:19:59 pm »

Quote from: Nick Rains
I mostly agree with you about the A2 print comparison - whilst it's possible to see differences between (in my case) the 5D2 and the P45 in an A2 print, the differences are subtle, being mostly to do with better tonality rather than raw resolution. However, above that size the differences become apparent very quickly so either you spend a great deal of time stitching or you invest in a bigger sensor.

Honestly, this forum should be broken up into two Subsets:

Group 1: Guys that (think they) need repro sizes larger than 17"x22".
Group 2: Guys that need repro sizes smaller than 17"x22".

Because it has nothing to do with Sensor Size any more.
Or the cost of the camera.
Or the shape of the camera.
Or the brand of the camera.
Final Repro Size seems to be the dividing line here in the sand.
Let's be honest: What's the difference between a PhaseOne P21+ print that's that's 17"x22", versus a print from a 1ds3 or a D3x? None. (Apologies to the Europeans for not converting to metric). If you want to walk up three inches away from a 40x60 print and count the pubes on the girl standing on that third mountaintop from the left, then you belong in Group 1.
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Doug Peterson

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« Reply #148 on: August 02, 2009, 09:15:34 pm »

Quote from: gwhitf
An even swap, title for title, between the system you want (read: need), and that beachfront condo on Collins Avenue.

As an additional incentive: our office in Miami is two blocks from Collins Avenue. So you'd be welcome to rent the time-tested Phase One system (which is 80%+ of the Miami medium format rental market) in case something goes awry with the as-yet-unseen Leica tethering software.

Doug Peterson (e-mail Me)
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Doug Peterson

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« Reply #149 on: August 02, 2009, 09:20:42 pm »

Quote from: gwhitf
Let's be honest: What's the difference between a PhaseOne P21+ print that's that's 17"x22", versus a print from a 1ds3 or a D3x? None. (Apologies to the Europeans for not converting to metric). If you want to walk up three inches away from a 40x60 print and count the pubes on the girl standing on that third mountaintop from the left, then you belong in Group 1.

You know as well as anyone that image quality has many many dimensions (tonal smoothness, color rendering, amount/aesthetic of noise, bokeh, 3Dness or tactileness) among which resolution is only one aspect. Very few people who evaluate both would match those cameras up. The general argument is that retouching ends up removing most of those aspects, but as a retoucher-for-hire in my spare time I know first hand that there is that much less to "correct" when you start with a medium format file.

Doug Peterson (e-mail Me)
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hubell

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« Reply #150 on: August 02, 2009, 09:46:48 pm »

Random thoughts from listening to the reactions so far to pricing for the S2:

1. It reminds me of the reaction to the pricing for the Nikon D3X when it was first released. I am astonished at the way so many photographers react to it as a personal affront to them. I don't get it. Will we see a similar reaction to the S2 as the real world feedback filters in?

2. Leica has invested tens of millions of dollars in R&D trying to deliver a product that leapfrogs what the existing players in medium format digital have delivered to date. I am sure that it is hugely over budget. Moreover, the pricing of the comparable systems from Phase and Hasselblad has dramatically changed since Leica started the S2 project. The H3D-39 and the P45(without any camera body) were both above $30k at that time.  Leica has unfortunately missed the boat in assessing the market, but please don't act if as if Leica is some sort of arrogant and greedy predator. I am sure that Leica is not making a killing on the pricing of the S2, just trying to keep its head above water.

3. The S2 with the 70mm lens is $27.5k in the US. The Phamiya P45+ is $26k. $1,500 more for the S2. Is there anyone who does not think that the S2 body and its 70mm lens is likely worth a premium of $1,500 over the Mamiya AFD with the Mamiya 80mm lens?

4. I am not buying one, but I sure hope that the S2 succeeds. When do you think we will next see someone design and build a new from the ground up medium format camera body and lenses? What do you all expect from the next iteration of the Mamiya AFD?

gwhitf

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« Reply #151 on: August 02, 2009, 09:59:02 pm »

Quote from: dougpetersonci
You know as well as anyone that image quality has many many dimensions (tonal smoothness, color rendering, amount/aesthetic of noise, bokeh, 3Dness or tactileness) among which resolution is only one aspect. Very few people who evaluate both would match those cameras up. The general argument is that retouching ends up removing most of those aspects, but as a retoucher-for-hire in my spare time I know first hand that there is that much less to "correct" when you start with a medium format file.

Doug,

You know I love you, but you're just dead wrong here. I've tested this thoroughly when I owned both of those cameras, and even before retouch, there wasn't a nickel's difference in them. Mirror up; tripod, with strobe -- not some halfass "handheld, shooting a sunset". Both files were super sharp and super clean.

And it's not a "general argument" about the retouch -- it's a very specific argument. Anybody who's really doing anything with these files is working them to death; either themselves, or an outside house. The file you start with, right out of the box, is a far cry from the file that you'd deliver. As long as the shadows aren't blocked and the highlights are intact, that's all you need to go to work on it, and beat it to death. And a retoucher doesn't care what he works on, just as long as the check clears.
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ndevlin

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« Reply #152 on: August 02, 2009, 11:08:15 pm »

The bottom line is this: for the top 5% of photographers (in earnings), the price of the system is (within broad parameters) irrelevant.

MF digital files are simply better than DSLR files. How much better is the source of painfully endless debate, but they're better. They are especially better for serious post-pro, which is something that straight-on landscape guys might not do much of, but most of the photographers in the top 5% of the industry (fashion and commercial) certainly do. (Well, to be precise, their retouchers do it for them.)

There are two MF systems out there today, and both kind of suck. The lenses are S_L_O_W in every relevant respect and often not optically up-to-snuff. The cameras are slow. The user interfaces are lousy and the AF is mediocre.  For Phasemiya, the battery issue alone makes it a pain to use.

SO.....we KNOW the Leica is faster in ever relevant respect (lens speed and fps).  If the precision and ergonomics of that performance are good, it will be a certain winner for people who can afford these types of systems.  

Leica has never aimed for the average photographer toiling away in small town America, and they aren't now.

If 1/3 of the top 5% of the industry (in earnings) buy into the S2, it will fly.

And we will all be better off for it, whether for the used systems it causes to float downstream to us, the increased innovative pressure it will place on Blad and Phasemiya, or just for the presence of a technologically richer environment.

Go Leica go...

- N.
« Last Edit: August 02, 2009, 11:09:43 pm by ndevlin »
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Christopher

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« Reply #153 on: August 03, 2009, 12:10:21 am »

Quote from: hcubell
3. The S2 with the 70mm lens is $27.5k in the US. The Phamiya P45+ is $26k. $1,500 more for the S2. Is there anyone who does not think that the S2 body and its 70mm lens is likely worth a premium of $1,500 over the Mamiya AFD with the Mamiya 80mm lens?

I understand the most you are saying and I think you are quite right, except one thing. You can get a P45+ a lot cheaper than a S2, just talk to some dealers. Or you could even get this: H3D-50 (And when seriously considering buying one, you will be suprised to find out that you can get the H3D even cheaper ;-) )
« Last Edit: August 03, 2009, 12:11:10 am by Christopher »
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« Reply #154 on: August 03, 2009, 01:46:59 am »

Quote from: hcubell
3. The S2 with the 70mm lens is $27.5k in the US. The Phamiya P45+ is $26k. $1,500 more for the S2. Is there anyone who does not think that the S2 body and its 70mm lens is likely worth a premium of $1,500 over the Mamiya AFD with the Mamiya 80mm lens?

I guess most people are reacting more to the price of the lenses, but the size of the sensor is probably also part of it. Most MF users like MF because of the look that they believe results from the size of the sensor (and lenses). The S2 is plain in the middle of FX and MF sensorsizewise and this has driven - probably irrealistic - expectations that the price would be there as well.

Besides, in terms of MF price, my personnal reference is more something like this anyway...

http://cgi.ebay.com/Hasselblad-H3D-II-50-C...id=p3286.c0.m14

Cheers,
Bernard

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« Reply #155 on: August 03, 2009, 02:20:56 am »

Quote from: Nick Rains
Imagine what the S2 could do using the 120mm for your stitched images    

I mostly agree with you about the A2 print comparison - whilst it's possible to see differences between (in my case) the 5D2 and the P45 in an A2 print, the differences are subtle, being mostly to do with better tonality rather than raw resolution. However, above that size the differences become apparent very quickly so either you spend a great deal of time stitching or you invest in a bigger sensor.

So, it's clear that dSLRs compare very favorably with MFDBs in many circumstances, that's not in dispute here. I think there is also no dispute that the S2 will be a very fine camera, if not the best of it's class. What seems to be in dispute here is the 'value' that this camera represents - and since that depends entirely on an individual's taste, needs and circumstances I simply don't get this harping on about the price.

Leica has always been expensive, what else is new?

Nick,

Agreed, I am for sure not trying to convince anyone not to purchase the S2, I am sure that it will be an amazing camera. I guess that I am just amused by these prices the same way I am amused by the prices of other luxury items I am not able to afford/not interested in like these speakers for instance... I am sure that the sound is amazing.

http://www.cabasse.com/us/range/artis/la-sphere

This might sound provocative, but as far as I am concerned 25MP and 50MP are basically the same thing. Stitching is the only way to go significantly larger anyway. Just did a 24x52 inch print and love the ability to output above 480 DPI at this print size (a pretty difficult subject for that matter, low light levels, dynamic skies, a perfectly horizontal horizon where to check alignement quality and water...).  Tones and DR do matter, but the D3x is measured to be the second best sensor in the industry, only inches behind the P65+ at one fifth the price.



From that standpoint, the S2 and the d3x have specs that are within a few % of each other and the price gap looks like a bad joke.

The way I see things, simple frame capture today (MF, FX or APS for that matter) is to stitching what 35 mm used to be to 8x10. It is more convenient and flexible, but the image quality is one order of magnitude lower. I understand all the people that favour flexibility as it sure makes creativity easier, but for those looking for the best possible image quality a single frame from the S2 won't cut it more than a single frame from a D3x or P65+. Those who did really like the complexity of large format will not mind the complexity associated with stitching and will find the constraints to be assets in coming up with a few strong images instead of many average ones (relative to what one could possibly achieve all things being equal elsewhere).

I could for sure stitch with a S2, but why spend 3 times more for the same end result and not get access to the most useful feature of recent digital camera - live view, much fewer options lenswise and a much more narrow system? Does Leica offer a SDK enabling the automation of DoF stacking? Will RRS produce a S2 L bracket in the coming weeks? Can you find a top quality second hand 600f5.6 lenses for the S2 at 1500US$ or a stabilized lens at any price?

The real enablers of the highest possible image quality these days are not Leica, Phaseone or Hasselblad. They are the few guys doing Autopano Giga and PTgui together with the makers of high quality panoramic heads. These 10 guys or so are the most important resource in high quality photography these days. Yet, their products are priced far below 1000 US$... and they mostly just work real nice.

Obviously the above applies to landscape only.

Cheers,
Bernard

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« Reply #156 on: August 03, 2009, 03:14:40 am »

Quote from: Franzl
alright, it took me some time to register to finally put in my opinion...maybe I am getting something wrong, but I don't feel that the S2 is super expensive, at least for central Europe...a new H3DII39 cost about 17000 € without tax, the S2 will cost around 18000 inkl. tax...thats 15k...almost the price of the H3DII31..

I don't know where you have seen this price in Europe , a H3DII-39 new  cost 14000 euro
http://www.fotopartner.de/cgi-bin/fotopart...Vz.0.1249283534
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tho_mas

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Leica S2 Pricing
« Reply #157 on: August 03, 2009, 03:21:26 am »

Quote from: erick.boileau
I don't know where you have seen this price in Europe , a H3DII-39 new  cost 14000 euro
http://www.fotopartner.de/cgi-bin/fotopart...Vz.0.1249283534
incl. 19% VAT. I'd say that's a good price!
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markowich

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Leica S2 Pricing
« Reply #158 on: August 03, 2009, 04:19:06 am »

david,
as a leica dealer it is understandable that you defend the (not even fully spec'ed) S2 to extremes (that is why we have to remove the pink filter
from most of what you say) but your defense of LR workflow goes too far. it may be ok if you want convenience but not if you need quality. and then why use an S2
at all?
obviously leica was deserted by phase and what remained for them was adobe. but the praise is out of place.
peter


Quote from: dfarkas
Of course. Anyone considering a purchase of this amount is going to want as much information as they can get to make an informed decision. Some of my customers are switching for the very reason that they can't stand the workflow through Phocus and have dreamed about being able to go straight into CS4 or LR.  Many photographers are already familiar with LR workflow and appreciate its digital asset management tools. The nature of the tethering solution from Leica is such that for photographers who want to use C1, they can. Open DNG standard (which C1 supports) with non-proprietary tethering s/w makes this possible. If Phocus supports DNG and hot folders, they could use that as well. Remember that no DAC or LCC corrections are necessary, so the user has ultimate choice for his or her preferred workflow.

Detailed tech specs will be available in less than two weeks, and I'm sure we'll get more tethering specific info at that time as well.  

For some, tethering is just not part of their needs. For them, the S2 represents a freedom to go outside and be portable. For one of my customers, he will be taking the S2 on a three month trek through the Alaskan wilderness for his next book project. A traditional MFD solution just wouldn't work in this environment. Many others shooting on location will just be using an untethered workflow, as well, similiar to the way one would work with a D3x or 1DsIII.



Of course, I agree to the definition of a system as well. My point was to illustrate that decisions at this level are serious ones. A camera with all 4 lenses would be $45,600. Some on my list only need two, some will get three, and a few are looking at all four and/or future lenses. Everyone's needs are different. A photographer I spoke to yesterday explained that he would only need a 30-90 for all of the work he does and would be replacing his existing MFD system. An architectural photographer I spoke to only needs the 35 to start, with the 24 later on. I've also spoken to some of the rental studios here in Miami and there is interest in the system. So, you'll probably be able to find an extra lens or backup body at rental, if needed.



I've weighed an H3DII at 3.8lbs without a lens. The S2 is 2.7lbs. H lenses and S lenses are very similiar in weight. The Mamiya is a bit on the heavy side due to still using AA batteries to power the camera.



The CS lenes don't go beyond 1/500th becuase Leica is able to achieve this speed at all apertures. In other words, the shutter would be capable of syncing faster at certain apertures, but is being limited so that 1/500th is consistent across the entire range. This is not how Hasselblad rates their sync speed. Instead, they use True Exposure in which "extremely fast exposures are compensated for with a marginal adjustment to the aperture, in order to keep the generated exposure independent of aperture setting. Only the fastest  shutter speed combined with the smallest aperture setting could result in slightly flawed exposures, but fortunately this is a combination that rarely occurs." (taken from Hasselblad white paper on leaf shutters in HC lenses) 1/800th sounds better for marketing purposes, but for me, I'd rather know that the shutter speed and aperture I select won't be changed by the camera.



The preview is very good. Playback and zoom to 100% are both instaneous, with no hourglass, pixelization, etc. The screen is 460K pixels(same res as iPhone screen), features image brightness adjustment, backlight intensity (discreet adjustments), and an ambient light sensor. The camera is capable of on-the-fly JPG rendering, so on-screen previews are fully rendered at 100%.




Agree about the AF performance. All initial accounts and my personal experience say that it should be as good or better than the H3, and certainly much faster than pin-driven, motorless lens from Mamiya.



While the mirror slap will have to be shown in files as you suggest, anyone can immediately tell that the shutter is much better damped, faster, with less black-out, and far less vibration in the body. This will be pretty clear when people start using the S2.



Agreed. Time will tell after tech specs are provided, images are shown, comparisons are done, and photographers start using the S2.

David
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Ben Rubinstein

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« Reply #159 on: August 03, 2009, 04:58:28 am »

Quote from: dfarkas
For some, tethering is just not part of their needs. For them, the S2 represents a freedom to go outside and be portable. For one of my customers, he will be taking the S2 on a three month trek through the Alaskan wilderness for his next book project. A traditional MFD solution just wouldn't work in this environment. Many others shooting on location will just be using an untethered workflow, as well, similiar to the way one would work with a D3x or 1DsIII.

Anyone interested in informing this guy that you don't need 39 megapixels for a book spread? Or that a 1Ds mkIII X2 would be a far better choice of equipment than a new untried system X1? Anyone else think that there are too many rich executives to whom the economic crisis has hardly made a dent in their spending?
« Last Edit: August 03, 2009, 04:59:27 am by pom »
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