Leica S2 Pricing

[yaya]

Of course. Anyone considering a purchase of this amount is going to want as much information as they can get to make an informed decision. Some of my customers are switching for the very reason that they can't stand the workflow through Phocus and have dreamed about being able to go straight into CS4 or LR.  Many photographers are already familiar with LR workflow and appreciate its digital asset management tools. The nature of the tethering solution from Leica is such that for photographers who want to use C1, they can. Open DNG standard (which C1 supports) with non-proprietary tethering s/w makes this possible. If Phocus supports DNG and hot folders, they could use that as well. Remember that no DAC or LCC corrections are necessary, so the user has ultimate choice for his or her preferred workflow.

Detailed tech specs will be available in less than two weeks, and I'm sure we'll get more tethering specific info at that time as well.

I doubt you will have info such as press-to-preview times in LR/ Aperture/ C1 at that time though I hope you will. Re LCC etc. I'll wait to see it in my own eyes if you don't mind.

For some, tethering is just not part of their needs. For them, the S2 represents a freedom to go outside and be portable. For one of my customers, he will be taking the S2 on a three month trek through the Alaskan wilderness for his next book project. A traditional MFD solution just wouldn't work in this environment. Many others shooting on location will just be using an untethered workflow, as well, similiar to the way one would work with a D3x or 1DsIII.

There are thousands of digital backs that live in studios, tethered to desktops/ laptops, capturing still life, people and other moving subjects. For these photographers tethered workflow is key to their work and if you want to compete with that you have to present an "as good if not better" solution.
Re portability: I'm sure there are many on this board who have taken their MFDs on such adventures and came back to proudly show their work...saying that, any new body that offers weather proofing is welcome (though the issue of sensor cleaning should not be discarded)

Of course, I agree to the definition of a system as well. My point was to illustrate that decisions at this level are serious ones. A camera with all 4 lenses would be $45,600. Some on my list only need two, some will get three, and a few are looking at all four and/or future lenses. Everyone's needs are different. A photographer I spoke to yesterday explained that he would only need a 30-90 for all of the work he does and would be replacing his existing MFD system. An architectural photographer I spoke to only needs the 35 to start, with the 24 later on. I've also spoken to some of the rental studios here in Miami and there is interest in the system. So, you'll probably be able to find an extra lens or backup body at rental, if needed.

I've weighed an H3DII at 3.8lbs without a lens. The S2 is 2.7lbs. H lenses and S lenses are very similiar in weight. The Mamiya is a bit on the heavy side due to still using AA batteries to power the camera.

The Mamiya, as a system (i.e. with some lenses) is smaller and lighter than most of the top DSLRs and I doubt the Leica will be lighter

The CS lenes don't go beyond 1/500th becuase Leica is able to achieve this speed at all apertures. In other words, the shutter would be capable of syncing faster at certain apertures, but is being limited so that 1/500th is consistent across the entire range. This is not how Hasselblad rates their sync speed. Instead, they use True Exposure in which "extremely fast exposures are compensated for with a marginal adjustment to the aperture, in order to keep the generated exposure independent of aperture setting. Only the fastest  shutter speed combined with the smallest aperture setting could result in slightly flawed exposures, but fortunately this is a combination that rarely occurs." (taken from Hasselblad white paper on leaf shutters in HC lenses) 1/800th sounds better for marketing purposes, but for me, I'd rather know that the shutter speed and aperture I select won't be changed by the camera.

I care less about the marketing babble (from both sides) and more about whether you can take a picture with flash at a high speed or not. I've not heard of anyone using an H (1/800) or a 6008/ AFi (1/1000) with sync problems (whatever the aperture is...e.g. if I can freeze motion at a desired f4 without smearing or seeing black then that's good enough).

The preview is very good. Playback and zoom to 100% are both instaneous, with no hourglass, pixelization, etc. The screen is 460K pixels(same res as iPhone screen), features image brightness adjustment, backlight intensity (discreet adjustments), and an ambient light sensor. The camera is capable of on-the-fly JPG rendering, so on-screen previews are fully rendered at 100%.

Well done!

While the mirror slap will have to be shown in files as you suggest, anyone can immediately tell that the shutter is much better damped, faster, with less black-out, and far less vibration in the body. This will be pretty clear when people start using the S2.

Agreed. Time will tell after tech specs are provided, images are shown, comparisons are done, and photographers start using the S2.

David

Looking forward!

[GiorgioNiro]

What kind of buffer does the S2 have?

[rainer_v]

.......... An architectural photographer I spoke to only needs the 35 to start, with the 24 later on.......

David

this is a crazy setup.
but sometimes still happens that photographers come from film and trust to camera vendors,- obviously the best way to burn a lot of money. shame on the person who sold this leica together with the 35mm lens as a "beginner system" for any architectural photographer.

[Kirk Gittings]

this is a crazy setup.
but sometimes still happens that photographers come from film and trust to camera vendors,- obviously the best way to burn a lot of money. shame on the person who sold this leica together with the 35mm lens as a "beginner system" for any architectural photographer.

I totally agree. IMO It is a really poor investment compared to a Canon and the new T/S lenses for an entry level system. Or for that matter for an adequate professional system. I do all my professional AP work these days with Canons. Also a 35 lens is not wide enough if you are only going to own one lens. When we used to shoot 4x5 film the common saying was a 90mm was your 90% lens, meaning you would use it 90% of the time. On a full frame camera that translates to about a 28mm lens. So with FF DSLRS and T/S lenses the 24 becomes your 90% lens. You simply don't have the room most of the time to get back far enough to use a 35. I own a Olympus 35PC, a quality lens and use it occasionally, and I would love to have a first class 28 T/S, but I have gotten used to the 24 now. In any event for the price of the Leica one should be looking at a mf system with movements, ie a real architectural camera or a Canon and spend the rest on marketing and building your portfolio..

[dfarkas]

What kind of buffer does the S2 have?

The S2 has a 1GB buffer and the Maestro processor is capable of pushing through about 120MB/sec. The S2 is also one of the only cameras that is UDMA 6 compliant, meaning that it is capable of writing to 600x cards at 90MB/sec.

If the camera keeps to the specs, it could shoot a 64 shot burst at full resolution in 42 seconds before hitting the buffer, using a 600x card. The buffer would then clear in 11 seconds.

The S2 is a very, very fast system.  

David

[Rob C]

What kind of buffer does the S2 have?

Giorgio, are you referring to the old guy who might be buying? I have to exclude this one because he can´t afford it.


Rob C

[GiorgioNiro]

The S2 has a 1GB buffer and the Maestro processor is capable of pushing through about 120MB/sec. The S2 is also one of the only cameras that is UDMA 6 compliant, meaning that it is capable of writing to 600x cards at 90MB/sec.

If the camera keeps to the specs, it could shoot a 64 shot burst at full resolution in 42 seconds before hitting the buffer, using a 600x card. The buffer would then clear in 11 seconds.

The S2 is a very, very fast system.  

David

Giorgio, are you referring to the old guy who might be buying? I have to exclude this one because he can´t afford it.


Rob C

Thanks for the explanation David! This is very informative.
If this camera does turn up as an option in the rental department (FotoCare) then I am definitely going to take it out for a spin.
I can't help but find this new system intriguing, I sincerely wish Leica well.

[feppe]

The S2 has a 1GB buffer and the Maestro processor is capable of pushing through about 120MB/sec. The S2 is also one of the only cameras that is UDMA 6 compliant, meaning that it is capable of writing to 600x cards at 90MB/sec.

If the camera keeps to the specs, it could shoot a 64 shot burst at full resolution in 42 seconds before hitting the buffer, using a 600x card. The buffer would then clear in 11 seconds.

The S2 is a very, very fast system.  

David

Being a bit of a computer aficionado, my jaw drops looking at those numbers. Bluray is widely considered very high bit rate at 40Mbps max (compared to DVD at around 10Mbps), requiring heavy machinery to move it down the pipe fast enough. Leica has managed to squeeze a much faster system (90 MBps = 720 Mbps, Bytes vs bits) in a package which fits in your hands, and (presumably) doesn't melt marble due to excess heat. I believe that's around three times as fast as 1Ds MkIII pushes data.

I wonder how many laws of physics Leica engineers are violating

[Deep]

I totally agree. IMO It is a really poor investment compared to a Canon and the new T/S lenses for an entry level system. Or for that matter for an adequate professional system. I do all my professional AP work these days with Canons. Also a 35 lens is not wide enough if you are only going to own one lens. When we used to shoot 4x5 film the common saying was a 90mm was your 90% lens, meaning you would use it 90% of the time. On a full frame camera that translates to about a 28mm lens. So with FF DSLRS and T/S lenses the 24 becomes your 90% lens. You simply don't have the room most of the time to get back far enough to use a 35. I own a Olympus 35PC, a quality lens and use it occasionally, and I would love to have a first class 28 T/S, but I have gotten used to the 24 now. In any event for the price of the Leica one should be looking at a mf system with movements, ie a real architectural camera or a Canon and spend the rest on marketing and building your portfolio..

Um, this is confusing.  The 35mm on the Leica equates roughly to 25mm in you Canon system.  So isn't that exactly what you want??  And wouldn't you expect a real improvement in image quality by comparison to the Canon?  Agreed that the medium format system with movements sounds better but we don't know how that Leica lens works at the moment.

There are people out there who only use one focal length.  At my most creative time, I only used two lenses (28mm and 100mm).  When I used a Rollei MF my only lenses were 50mm and 120mm.  We don't all need buckets of gear to say we have a "system".

Don.

Edit:  Actually, maybe I'm the confused one?  I assumed the perspective control lens in the released pictures was the 35mm we were talking about but now wonder if that is wrong and the reference is just to a normal 35mm.  Sorry, haven't got time to chase every last detail.  Anyway, the point about focal length stands..

[tho_mas]

I assumed the perspective control lens in the released pictures was the 35mm we were talking about but now wonder if that is wrong and the reference is just to a normal 35mm.

yes, there is a 35mm TS on the list (AFAIK announced for spring 2010) but the 35mm mentioned above is the regular 35mm.

I wonder how the TS will work with the offset microlenses especially as there is no dedicated software to correct lens/sensor cast...

[eronald]

Looks like the S3 will be the camera to buy - all the lenses will be out by then and the bugs too.

Edmund

yes, there is a 35mm TS on the list (AFAIK announced for spring 2010) but the 35mm mentioned above is the regular 35mm.

I wonder how the TS will work with the offset microlenses especially as there is no dedicated software to correct lens/sensor cast...

[tho_mas]

Looks like the S3 will be the camera to buy - all the lenses will be out by then and the bugs too.

looks like the D4x with 30MP will be the camera to buy. Or, if you like AF lenses without compromise usable at all apertures and not just f11 the Sony A1000 with 30MP and ZA lenses (if Sony will ever make some TS glass) :-)

[eronald]

looks like the D4x with 30MP will be the camera to buy. Or, if you like AF lenses without compromise usable at all apertures and not just f11 the Sony A1000 with 30MP and ZA lenses (if Sony will ever make some TS glass) :-)

At 30 MP / 35mm  lenses will be diffraction limited around F8

On the other hand, the 17mm and 24mm TS/E Canon lenses are available right now, and the 5D2+TS/E17 costs as much as any Leica S2 lens.

Edmund

[tho_mas]

At 30 MP / 35mm  lenses will be diffraction limited around F8

I know... wasn't a serious note.
However... see the "Moore's Law" articles.

[Dan Wells]

Where a previous poster said that the discussion should be split at 17x22", the split point may be somewhat higher - in the range of 24x36". There is at least one "35mm" DSLR right now that prints 24x36 at gallery quality, even with high-detail subjects, and I strongly suspect that this group will increase in the next 6 months to a year when Canon responds to the D3x, and Sony may introduce a 14-bit, lower noise Alpha 950, and Leica themselves may introduce a rangefinder M9 with the pixels, dynamic range, etc... to go to 24x36". I just wonder how many MF systems can survive in the tiny market above 24x36 inch prints (assuming that FF35 remains constrained at that print size by diffraction, noise, etc...). Is there room for Phase, Hasselblad and Leica in what used to be, essentially, the 4x5 film market (the D3x and its upcoming competitors are competitive with 6x9 cm film). Unlike 4x5, where any camera takes any lens, and Keith Canham can build well-regarded cameras in his garage, a MFD system requires a significant development team for lenses, software and interfacing new generations of sensors. Are there enough applications requiring 4x5 quality to support three such teams?


                                   -Dan

[Christopher]

Where a previous poster said that the discussion should be split at 17x22", the split point may be somewhat higher - in the range of 24x36". There is at least one "35mm" DSLR right now that prints 24x36 at gallery quality, even with high-detail subjects, and I strongly suspect that this group will increase in the next 6 months to a year when Canon responds to the D3x, and Sony may introduce a 14-bit, lower noise Alpha 950, and Leica themselves may introduce a rangefinder M9 with the pixels, dynamic range, etc... to go to 24x36". I just wonder how many MF systems can survive in the tiny market above 24x36 inch prints (assuming that FF35 remains constrained at that print size by diffraction, noise, etc...). Is there room for Phase, Hasselblad and Leica in what used to be, essentially, the 4x5 film market (the D3x and its upcoming competitors are competitive with 6x9 cm film). Unlike 4x5, where any camera takes any lens, and Keith Canham can build well-regarded cameras in his garage, a MFD system requires a significant development team for lenses, software and interfacing new generations of sensors. Are there enough applications requiring 4x5 quality to support three such teams?


                                   -Dan

Well I would more say that all 4 current cameras can make 24x36 prints and if the files are processed right you won't see a difference. You don't really believe you could tell a d3x apart from a 5dII or 1dsmkII file or a Sony file ? I don't think so and if you do. Than you really have to be special. The only thing to say about these cameras would be that the sony is weeker with very high iso. That's about it.

[asf]

Here we go ...

[paulmoorestudio]

Where a previous poster said that the discussion should be split at 17x22", the split point may be somewhat higher - in the range of 24x36". There is at least one "35mm" DSLR right now that prints 24x36 at gallery quality, even with high-detail subjects, and I strongly suspect that this group will increase in the next 6 months to a year when Canon responds to the D3x, and Sony may introduce a 14-bit, lower noise Alpha 950, and Leica themselves may introduce a rangefinder M9 with the pixels, dynamic range, etc... to go to 24x36". I just wonder how many MF systems can survive in the tiny market above 24x36 inch prints (assuming that FF35 remains constrained at that print size by diffraction, noise, etc...). Is there room for Phase, Hasselblad and Leica in what used to be, essentially, the 4x5 film market (the D3x and its upcoming competitors are competitive with 6x9 cm film). Unlike 4x5, where any camera takes any lens, and Keith Canham can build well-regarded cameras in his garage, a MFD system requires a significant development team for lenses, software and interfacing new generations of sensors. Are there enough applications requiring 4x5 quality to support three such teams?


                                   -Dan

as a former member of the 4x5 to 8x10 club and dealing strickly in the commercial realm..I would say that yes there is room for a few players in that game..I would like to see the math of the money that was spent 10 years ago on film, polaroid and processing sheet-film world wide....granted, the need for large format
in the print world has shrunk some as the print market has shrunk due to increases of other media, but I am reminded of how folks not directly envolved with this segment underestimate the amount of work that is produced..Seems every week I meet a new person and they learn I am a photographer their first and only question is  "who do you take pics of"..  Maybe I am old school but I still see a need for the 60mp or 39ms on a tech camera and the viability of a tweener, such as the S2 seems to be.  I will be the first to admit that a ff 24mp dslr can do a huge chunk of what is needed nowadays..but having that extra headroom for me is a welcome.
 I had to laugh this morning when I saw a bumber sticker in front of me.." life is too short to hunt with an ugly dog" - unknown
it seemed to strike a nerve in this still lifer.

[BernardLanguillier]

Well I would more say that all 4 current cameras can make 24x36 prints and if the files are processed right you won't see a difference. You don't really believe you could tell a d3x apart from a 5dII or 1dsmkII file or a Sony file ? I don't think so and if you do. Than you really have to be special.

Have you compared them for actual prints that size, or is your opinion based on the fact that these cameras feature similar resolutions?

Cheers,
Bernard

[Deep]

Have you compared them for actual prints that size, or is your opinion based on the fact that these cameras feature similar resolutions?

Cheers,
Bernard

Haven't we moved a long way off topic!  I'll stick my oar in and say that the camera resolution and eventual print size depend heavily on what the subject matter is.  I remember the first large digital print I sold (over 36 inches) was from a one megapixel file but it looked fantastic.  Nevertheless, we all know that more pixels give more flexibility.  The question here is also the quality of pixels and that may, in fact, be what makes or breaks the new Leica more than price, etc.  An interesting wait ahead....