Luminous Landscape Forum
Equipment & Techniques => Medium Format / Film / Digital Backs – and Large Sensor Photography => Topic started by: arashm on July 29, 2009, 08:24:36 pm
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DPreview has announced UK pricing for the S2
Copied from their site
Leica S2 Black £15,996
Leica S2-P Black * £19,092
SUMMARIT-S 1:2.5/70 ASPH £3,096
SUMMARIT-S 1:2.5/70 ASPH CS £4,025
APO-TELE-ELMAR-S 1:3.5/180 £4,541
APO-TELE-ELMAR-S 1:3.5/180 CS £5,160
APO-MACRO-SUMMARIT-S 1:2.5/120 £4,541
APO-MACRO-SUMMARIT-S 1:2.5/120 CS £5,160
SUMMARIT-S 1:2.5/35 ASPH £3,612
SUMMARIT-S 1:2.5/35 ASPH CS £4,231
Multifunction handgrip S £851
Professional battery charger S £258
Though this line makes me wonder " that puts it squarely into the apparently troubled medium format sector"
any thoughts on what US pricing will be?
am
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DPreview has announced UK pricing for the S2
Copied from their site
Leica S2 Black £15,996
Leica S2-P Black * £19,092
SUMMARIT-S 1:2.5/70 ASPH £3,096
SUMMARIT-S 1:2.5/70 ASPH CS £4,025
APO-TELE-ELMAR-S 1:3.5/180 £4,541
APO-TELE-ELMAR-S 1:3.5/180 CS £5,160
APO-MACRO-SUMMARIT-S 1:2.5/120 £4,541
APO-MACRO-SUMMARIT-S 1:2.5/120 CS £5,160
SUMMARIT-S 1:2.5/35 ASPH £3,612
SUMMARIT-S 1:2.5/35 ASPH CS £4,231
Multifunction handgrip S £851
Professional battery charger S £258
Though this line makes me wonder " that puts it squarely into the apparently troubled medium format sector"
any thoughts on what US pricing will be?
am
Oh Dear , Poor Brits Screwed again!
Des
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So for comparison sake
how much is a H3DII-31 in the UK, can someone fill me in please.
am
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So for comparison sake
how much is a H3DII-31 in the UK, can someone fill me in please.
am
robert white UK has them for 9995 GBP
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DPreview has announced UK pricing for the S2
Copied from their site
Leica S2 Black £15,996
Leica S2-P Black * £19,092
SUMMARIT-S 1:2.5/70 ASPH £3,096
SUMMARIT-S 1:2.5/70 ASPH CS £4,025
APO-TELE-ELMAR-S 1:3.5/180 £4,541
APO-TELE-ELMAR-S 1:3.5/180 CS £5,160
APO-MACRO-SUMMARIT-S 1:2.5/120 £4,541
APO-MACRO-SUMMARIT-S 1:2.5/120 CS £5,160
SUMMARIT-S 1:2.5/35 ASPH £3,612
SUMMARIT-S 1:2.5/35 ASPH CS £4,231
Multifunction handgrip S £851
Professional battery charger S £258
Though this line makes me wonder " that puts it squarely into the apparently troubled medium format sector"
any thoughts on what US pricing will be?
am
$26,191 at current exchange rates for the cheaper body, and $5069 for the cheaper 70mm. This is the camera that will kill Leica.
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Remember, these prices are 15% because they include the dreaded V(alue) A(dded) T(ax), and yet 25% more on the Let's Fuck the British Because We Can philosophy, which seems to attach to all photographic pricing.
Still, it's at the very high end of what I could have imagined for a bunch of prime lenses...
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DPreview has announced UK pricing for the S2
Copied from their site
Leica S2 Black £15,996
Leica S2-P Black * £19,092
SUMMARIT-S 1:2.5/70 ASPH £3,096
SUMMARIT-S 1:2.5/70 ASPH CS £4,025
APO-TELE-ELMAR-S 1:3.5/180 £4,541
APO-TELE-ELMAR-S 1:3.5/180 CS £5,160
APO-MACRO-SUMMARIT-S 1:2.5/120 £4,541
APO-MACRO-SUMMARIT-S 1:2.5/120 CS £5,160
SUMMARIT-S 1:2.5/35 ASPH £3,612
SUMMARIT-S 1:2.5/35 ASPH CS £4,231
Multifunction handgrip S £851
Professional battery charger S £258
Though this line makes me wonder " that puts it squarely into the apparently troubled medium format sector"
any thoughts on what US pricing will be?
am
Uh . . . what? I don't know anyone, and I mean anyone, who would spend that kind of money on an inflexible system. I'm sure it is amazing, best lenses ever, etc, but come on. In USD, this is a $50k - $70k system. Makes a P65+ and a H2 system the value leader, not to mention the H3D 39, 50 and 60.
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So for comparison sake
how much is a H3DII-31 in the UK, can someone fill me in please.
am
I think the more relevant comparison is the Phase One Phamiya P45+(39mp), which apparently goes for around UK 18,500 pounds exclusive of 15% VAT. The Leica S2 is around UK 16,500 exclusive of VAT. The former camera body is a dinosaur that was was first designed around when??? The Leica is not your uncle's AFD. It is a brand new system designed for digital from the ground up. Let's see how it compares in real world shooting and image quality. I really do hope it meets the design goals and is a success. Whatever I may think about Leica in recent years, I for one am rooting for any company that reaches way deep into its pockets to think outside the box and make a big bet in this space.
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Professional battery charger S £258
I wonder how much more the Amateur battery charger will be?
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I think the more relevant comparison is the Phase One Phamiya P45+(39mp), which apparently goes for around UK 18,500 pounds exclusive of 15% VAT. The Leica S2 is around UK 16,500 exclusive of VAT. The former camera body is a dinosaur that was was first designed around when??? The Leica is not your uncle's AFD. It is a brand new system designed for digital from the ground up. Let's see how it compares in real world shooting and image quality. I really do hope it meets the design goals and is a success. Whatever I may think about Leica in recent years, I for one am rooting for any company that reaches way deep into its pockets to think outside the box and make a big bet in this space.
Root all you want, but are you making a big bet of your own in this space and buying one? Personally, I'll take the two inside the box for the price of the one outside the box.
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I think the more relevant comparison is the Phase One Phamiya P45+(39mp), which apparently goes for around UK 18,500 pounds exclusive of 15% VAT. The Leica S2 is around UK 16,500 exclusive of VAT. The former camera body is a dinosaur that was was first designed around when??? The Leica is not your uncle's AFD. It is a brand new system designed for digital from the ground up. Let's see how it compares in real world shooting and image quality. I really do hope it meets the design goals and is a success. Whatever I may think about Leica in recent years, I for one am rooting for any company that reaches way deep into its pockets to think outside the box and make a big bet in this space.
Robert White has a Hassy H3DII with a 39mp back and 80mm lens for the kit price of 13395 UK pounds, not including 1400 or so in VAT, so a bit less than 15,000 pounds for camera, 39mp back and 80mm lens. Of course, it's only a Hassy.
JC
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SUMMARIT-S 1:2.5/70 ASPH £3,096
That's their 50mm right? Translated in Yen, that means 470.000 Yen...
I paid less for my never used second hand Nikkor 300 f2.8 VR than the price of their most basic lens of the S2 system... Somebody must have smoked the carpet big time.
I am of course not mentioning the fact that this lens only opens at 2.5... which makes the joke all the more amusing.
I bet you a good belgian beer that nobody will be able to tell the different on an A2 print between a D3x+Nikkor AF-S 1.4 and the S2+Summarit-S 1:2.5/80 at f2.8.
Cheers,
Bernard
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Robert White has a Hassy H3DII with a 39mp back and 80mm lens for the kit price of 13395 UK pounds, not including 1400 or so in VAT, so a bit less than 15,000 pounds for camera, 39mp back and 80mm lens. Of course, it's only a Hassy.
JC
Well Leica just killed my dream. I mean sorry that is just to much. I haven't seen German prices yet, but the UK prices look horrible. With a full kit I think I would get close to around 55k US, which is way out of line. Well you could get a P65 system for that kind of money. Or if you want to get something cheaper, there are many options. P40, P45, H3DII with 39,50 or I think eventhe 60 when it comes will be cheaper. I mean I don't even want to know what the 24, 30 TSE and the zoom will costs when they come out. The problem I see is that you have to invest a LOT of money into a system which could be dead again in 1-2 years if Leica goad upside down.
Another Problem I see is Canon, Nikon and Sony, Sorry you can get a top end DSLR System for around 10000. Will the s2 be better ? Probably. Will it be worth 40000 more ?? I really don't think so.
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For those on this side of the pond, here's the official USA pricing info:
Bodies: (Oct 09)
S2 Camera Body (http://www.dalephotoanddigital.com/_e/S_Cameras/product/LEICAS2/Leica_S2_Pro_Format_DSLR.htm)- $22,995
S2-P Body with Sapphire LCD Cover Glass and Platinum Service Package (http://www.dalephotoanddigital.com/_e/S_Cameras/product/LEICAS2-P/Leica_S2_P_with_Sapphire_LCD_Cover_Glass_and_Platiunum_Service_Package.htm)- $27,995
Accessories:
Multi Function Handgrip S (http://www.dalephotoanddigital.com/_e/Leica_S_System_Accessories/product/799429160036/Leica_Multifunction_Handgrip_S.htm) - $1,295 (Jan 10)
Battery Charger (spare/extra) - $399
Service Packages for Bodies:
S-Body Premium Service (http://www.dalephotoanddigital.com/_e/Leica_S_System_Add_On_Service_Packages/product/P8763/Leica_S_Body_Premium_Service.htm) - $1,495
S-Body Platinum Service (http://www.dalephotoanddigital.com/_e/Leica_S_System_Add_On_Service_Packages/product/P8764/Leica_S_Body_Platium_Service.htm) - $3,795
Lenses (http://www.dalephotoanddigital.com/_e/dept/15-011/S_Lenses.htm):
Summarit-S 70mm f/2.5 ASPH (http://www.dalephotoanddigital.com/_e/S_Lenses/product/LEICA70S/Leica_Summarit_S_70mm_f_2_5_ASPH.htm) - $4,495 (Oct 09)
Summarit-S 70mm f/2.5 ASPH CS (http://www.dalephotoanddigital.com/_e/S_Lenses/product/LEICA70CS/Leica_Summarit_S_70mm_f_2_5_ASPH_CS.htm) - $5,995 (Nov 09)
APO-Tele-Elmar-S 180mm f/3.5 (http://www.dalephotoanddigital.com/_e/S_Lenses/product/LEICA180S/Leica_APO_Tele_Elmar_S_180mm_f_3_5.htm) - $6,495 (Oct 09)
APO-Tele-Elmar-S 180mm f/3.5 CS (http://www.dalephotoanddigital.com/_e/S_Lenses/product/LEICA180CS/Leica_APO_Tele_Elmar_S_180mm_f_3_5_CS.htm) - $7,495 (Nov 09)
APO-Macro-Summarit-S 120mm f/2.5 (http://www.dalephotoanddigital.com/_e/S_Lenses/product/LEICA120S/Leica_APO_Macro_Summarit_S_120mm_f_2_5.htm) - $6,495 (Nov 09)
APO-Macro-Summarit-S 120mm f/2.5 (http://www.dalephotoanddigital.com/_e/S_Lenses/product/LEICA120CS/Leica_APO_Macro_Summarit_S_120mm_f_2_5_CS.htm) - $7,495 (Nov 09)
Summarit-S 35mm f/2.5 ASPH (http://www.dalephotoanddigital.com/_e/S_Lenses/product/LEICA35S/Leica_Summarit_S_35mm_f_2_5_ASPH.htm) - $5,295 (Dec 09)
Summarit-S 35mm f/2.5 ASPH CS (http://www.dalephotoanddigital.com/_e/S_Lenses/product/LEICA35CS/Leica_Summarit_S_35mm_f_2_5_ASPH_CS.htm) - $5,995 (Dec 09)
Service Packages for Lenses:
S-Lens Premium Service (http://www.dalephotoanddigital.com/_e/Leica_S_System_Add_On_Service_Packages/product/P8765/Leica_S_Lens_Premium_Service.htm) - $495
S-Lens Platium Service (http://www.dalephotoanddigital.com/_e/Leica_S_System_Add_On_Service_Packages/product/P8766/Leica_S_Lens_Platium_Service.htm) - $995
Bodies and lenses come with a transferable (first for Leica) warranty, whcih can be extended through purchase of one of the service packages. We are still waiting on some more details to come.
David
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Well the whole price list is ridiculous. But I have to laugh at the $400 battery charger. I mean come on, I thought the Nikon chargers were over-priced. Do they expect us to believe the Leica name means something for battery chargers? ROTFLMAO
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wow. Or should I say WTF ?
Leica really managed to give us a DSLR typ system for 50,000. I would love to see some ISO 800 and 1600 of such a expensive system. ;-)
Oh well Look what I can buy for the same money and I get a lens, too. H3DII-50 (http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/571017-REG/Hasselblad_70380532_H3DII_50_SLR_Digital_Camera.html)
And I just saw it NO Wideangle lens till December, or probably more beginning of 2010....
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I really don't understand,
what happened to all the
"It will be priced very competitively???"
you can buy a H3D2-31 for $17,000
same S2 kit (cheaper body + 70 CS) is $29,000
Price difference of $12,000.00
Honestly, I'm lost for words.
am
(David thank you for posting the USD prices.)
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wow. Or should I say WTF ?
Leica really managed to give us a DSLR typ system for 50,000. I would love to see some ISO 800 and 1600 of such a expensive system. ;-)
Oh well Look what I can buy for the same money and I get a lens, too. H3DII-50 (http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/571017-REG/Hasselblad_70380532_H3DII_50_SLR_Digital_Camera.html)
And I just saw it NO Wideangle lens till December, or probably more beginning of 2010....
I assume that the quality at high ISO wouldn't be better than from Phase One or Hasselblad. Anyway that camera will be bought from enough nerds and Leica will make money out of this, if the AF is good enough.
Michael
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has anyone at leica looked at DMF prices lately?
the charger is a gem.....so is the grip.....canon sells it's completely overpriced grip with wifi and built in server for 900....but maybe that one does not include "multifunction".....
what is amazingly crazy is that the platinum service (!) package sells for more then a whole 5DII kit....you would think they could at least roll that into a 23000 BODY!
i will stop comparing it to a 5DII but a camera at twice the price of competing, existing and proven systems (which, btw aren't selling like hotcakes either right now....) is a little strange....
well i am sure the profit margin of the m9 will make up for the losses.....
i really love leica and just finally got some R lenses for the canon and love them......and m9 really sounds nice (anyone have any details on that?) but i was really hoping that leica would be realistic about the price of the S2......
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Wow!
I think the used prices just went up on the leica DMR! Just kidding but I hope they do well with the S2.
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at first i`d like to see if it works ok. will be hard to get info which leads further than these who will praise their leica results in the heaven...
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$400 BATTERY CHARGER!
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I really don't understand,
what happened to all the
"It will be priced very competitively???"
I think the competition read that aswell
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The P40+-Kit costs 25000$
The H3D-39-Kit costs 22000$
It's not the price R10-waiters have hoped for (<10k$) but it's comparable to the MF-systems on the market.
I'm ok with the price for the charger if they finally bought a non-chinese one... We will never find out the true calculation behind it but a big problem ramins the currency speculation, Europeans have to pay for the low dollar, to make it a little bit more affordable on this market!
The S2 willl be around 1 stop faster than the other MF-systems because it incorporates microlenses with the new sensor-architecture. I've seen images from photokina with the 70mm wide open, it seemed better at f2.5 than every other standard lens from Mamiya, Fuji or N/C stopped down. I don't think a H3D-50 will offer any resolution adavntage in practice in over 90% of the situations.
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isn't the list price for the canon 1ds charger also 400? canon probably sells 1000x more than Leica ever will.
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The S2 willl be around 1 stop faster than the other MF-systems because it incorporates microlenses with the new sensor-architecture. I've seen images from photokina with the 70mm wide open, it seemed better at f2.5 than every other standard lens from Mamiya, Fuji or N/C stopped down. I don't think a H3D-50 will offer any resolution adavantge in practice in over 90% of the situations.
Agreed... and the same way the S2 will not provide a useful resolution advantage over a D3x in 90% of the time... whose lenses are pretty darm excellent as well 2 stops down from full opening. Not to mention DR that is likely to be better on the D3x.
Anyway, the lack of live view on the S2 makes it a non entrant in the first place.
Cheers,
Bernard
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I think the competition read that aswell
Like me you assumed competitively priced with other camera systems, obviously they meant a house.
Kevin.
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I hope Leica finally realizes to post some high-end-images to demonstrate the capabilities of this system. What I saw at Photokina (handheld) had nothing to do with 20+Mp-DSLRs and their lenses...
I miss live view, too. Not so much in the S2 (which is too big and expensive for a M-shooter like me anyway) but as a "technology statement" for the future M9 which would really profit from live view.
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The P40+-Kit costs 25000$
The H3D-39-Kit costs 22000$
It's not the price R10-waiters have hoped for (<10k$) but it's comparable to the MF-systems on the market.
I'm ok with the price for the charger if they finally bought a non-chinese one... We will never find out the true calculation behind it but a big problem ramins the currency speculation, Europeans have to pay for the low dollar, to make it a little bit more affordable on this market!
The S2 willl be around 1 stop faster than the other MF-systems because it incorporates microlenses with the new sensor-architecture. I've seen images from photokina with the 70mm wide open, it seemed better at f2.5 than every other standard lens from Mamiya, Fuji or N/C stopped down. I don't think a H3D-50 will offer any resolution adavntage in practice in over 90% of the situations.
Those kits include a lens, so the Leica is $5000 more expensive kit-to-kit. You say you're ok with the price of the charger and you seem to think the price is competitive, so again I'll ask, are you actually going to put your money where your mouth is and buy one? Do you know anybody who will?
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$400 BATTERY CHARGER!
a charger comes with the S2 it seems, according to the list.
399.- is for a spare/extra charger
Battery Charger (spare/extra) - $399
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Well, can't say its unexpected. Falls right in line.
- Leica prices have always been high, and the recent trend in the M8 has been upwards also.
- regardless of what they say about "competitive pricing" - Leica's notion of this is very modest. Not quite "head in sand" but close to it.
- Euro:$ isn't helping.
- Their pricing is similar to Rollei prices, comparable high quality, German product, with their Schneider lenses. High quality, high prices.
- having a few v. expensive small items (charger, etc.) at high prices certainly doesn't endear them.
- sad, but similar to the M8 - their distribution network is expensive too.
Leica has never been interested in discount pricing a body to get a new model out the door. They have always fully priced their development costs into their new products, making their "loyal" customers pay for the privilege of using their product. Its a bit goofy in todays markets, but maybe for small volume, high quality, it works for them?
Their only recent product that doesn't suffer from this are the new Summarit lenses. But they benefited from rational design and shared production to lessen expenses, not from an aggressive marketing strategy. Still, they are priced reasonably. But it seems that Leica makes each item pay directly for its manufacturing costs and engineering time - no "shifted pricing" to get the body on the street.
It is hard to look at these prices and not choke. Especially today. The only hope for us in the US is that maybe list and street prices aren't the same... a wee hope, to be sure.
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The P40+-Kit costs 25000$
The H3D-39-Kit costs 22000$
It's not the price R10-waiters have hoped for (<10k$) but it's comparable to the MF-systems on the market.
I'm ok with the price for the charger if they finally bought a non-chinese one... We will never find out the true calculation behind it but a big problem ramins the currency speculation, Europeans have to pay for the low dollar, to make it a little bit more affordable on this market!
The S2 willl be around 1 stop faster than the other MF-systems because it incorporates microlenses with the new sensor-architecture. I've seen images from photokina with the 70mm wide open, it seemed better at f2.5 than every other standard lens from Mamiya, Fuji or N/C stopped down. I don't think a H3D-50 will offer any resolution adavntage in practice in over 90% of the situations.
P40+ kit is 21,500 with lens. No matter how you slice the cheese the S2 starts at 6k over and above the H3/39 and P40+ with the cheapest 70mm lens no less
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Cough. Just cleaning the computer screen of my lunch after seeing those prices!
Just wait for the price of a special limited edition S2 with green finish.
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The S2 willl be around 1 stop faster than the other MF-systems because it incorporates microlenses with the new sensor-architecture.
If so, not for long. Kodak already has micro-lenses on the previous generation 44x33mm 31MP sensor in the HDII-31, and so are likely to put them on a next generation 44x33mm 6 micron cell sensor (40MP). Dalsa also has microlenses on its new 48x36mm 48MP sensor, due to a new design that eliminates the off-perpendicular sensitivity problems of microlenses: see http://www.dalsa.com/public/corp/pdfs/DALS...dings_final.pdf (http://www.dalsa.com/public/corp/pdfs/DALSA_IEDM_2008_proceedings_final.pdf)
So microlenses are likely on all Dalsa MF sensors from now on.
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I hope Leica finally realizes to post some high-end-images to demonstrate the capabilities of this system. What I saw at Photokina (handheld) had nothing to do with 20+Mp-DSLRs and their lenses...
One would think that Leica would hire a Human Behavior Expert, in order to understand that, yes, you come out with a very detailed document, or set of downloadable files, that clearly show the difference in their new camera, versus that of Phase or even Canon, *before* they announce pricing on the new camera.
The Human needs more proof than a red dot logo in order to write a check for $50-60,000 US.
Yet now, the whole experience is colored by that nagging little detail called Real World Pricing, and for a product that is Version 1.0, and still unproven in the field, and without Live View.
I'm sure on some level, it's a great camera, but they simply missed the boat. Maybe if they throw in a set of $400 Leather Driving Gloves with every body, they'll sell enough to the Target Audience to limp along and not go belly-up.
I'd say, with this announcement, the value of my P45+ is now more secure than ever.
Still, best of luck to The Church of Leica, and their worshipers.
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Isn't the total world market for MF digital something miniscule like 10,000 units a year? And I seem to remember Leica stating that their aspiration for the S2 was a 10% market share. If so they're aiming for annual sales of just one thousand units (body plus lens packages).
They wouldn't even need to gain any support from the professional market to achieve that, even in today's straightened economy there's easily a thousand well-heeled hobby photographers in the world.
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Those kits include a lens, so the Leica is $5000 more expensive kit-to-kit. You say you're ok with the price of the charger and you seem to think the price is competitive, so again I'll ask, are you actually going to put your money where your mouth is and buy one? Do you know anybody who will?
Before responding to that question one way or the other, don't you think it would make sense to actually use the camera on an actual shoot(or two or three) and see first hand how it handles, what the files look like, and how the post-workflow functions?
As for the pricing, it's high, and I am sure higher than Leica would like, but I am also sure that is a function of the very sizeable development costs that Leica has incurred. Millions and millions of dollars for the body and lenses. The number I have heard is $20-30M. In any business you have to price a new product in substantial part in a way that permits you to recover your development costs. By comparison, what do you think Phase One has invested in the P65+/P40+, Mamiya AFD and its lenses over the past 2 years? Phase and Hasselblad have built-in advantages in pricing, and as a result Leica will likely fail unless the S2 has demonstrable advantages over the Phamiya and the H3D.
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I just ran the basic math for a pro photographer, and this is my package, in order to responsibly walk into a basic job:
Two of the cheapo version bodies; basic warranty; no handgrip; three cheapo version lenses: $65,300.00.
("But oh wait, I could LEASE them, right? So that makes them free, right? Wonder what's the Monthly Lease Payment on $65,300.00...? I'm sure someone here could tell us.")
And they promise the camera in September, but then the truth comes out, that other necessary items are not til January 2010? (Did anybody read "The Boy That Cried Wolf"..?)
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amen !
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Prices out of "dentist" range, and surely high enough to make anyone except a Citi derivatives trader blink. Bernie Madoff probably had two on a waiting list, so if anyone wants to step up ....
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Prices out of "dentist" range, and surely high enough to make anyone except a Citi derivatives trader blink. Bernie Madoff probably had two on a waiting list, so if anyone wants to step up ....
since longer times the things are going crazy and unappetizing for my taste in the mf business.
not only on the leica side, but i hold my bet that the s2 will mean the end of this formerly fantastic company.
this will be the second new system which will die before it is completed .....
why they didnt spend their millions in improving their r system or even the m? now it could be an amazing system with such money behind.
instead that they have now three systems, all not entirely ready,- at least if you dont valuate heavy bugs as the ir bug in the m as unique collector features ....
i dont get it which people are giving the advises to this companies, or to whom they listen too.
not only bankers and brokers should learn the one digit 1x1 from the beginning again.
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Many of those systems will go, boxes unopended, into the safes of rich Japanese collectors.
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One well known investment bank just recently reported very respectable 2nd quarter earnings. Large bonuses were paid.
The recipients of that largesse are one of the types of people that will buy this camera. The "aimed at the pro market" concept is a plus for them, the high price reinforces it. There's nothing wrong with being a well-heeled enthusiast. Dealers love them.
I don't see why pros complain about the price of a camera literally most would really never use.
It would be very interesting to get Ken Hansen's opinion on this matter.
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One well known investment bank just recently reported very respectable 2nd quarter earnings. Large bonuses were paid.
The recipients of that largesse are one of the types of people that will buy this camera. The "aimed at the pro market" concept is a plus for them, the high price reinforces it. There's nothing wrong with being a well-heeled enthusiast. Dealers love them.
I don't see why pros complain about the price of a camera literally most would really never use.
It would be very interesting to get Ken Hansen's opinion on this matter.
And the 2 or 3 pros who use it will be one more selling argument for these enthusiasts. I can see how this camera would appeal to the rich enthusiast. Its different, not everybody can afford it, its made to be perfect. Exactly right for a certain clientel.
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Some random thoughts:
I just bought my neighbor's 2006 Porsche Boxter S, 3600 miles, for WAY less than the "cheap" S2 body. Its eye surgeon former owner is a Leica collector.
I just hope the S2 doesn't kill Leica before the M9 comes out. That would be a shame.
Maybe for fine arts applications, it could replace a Mamiya 7, but for commerce the 5d2 is overkill, the D3x is just insane. At these prices I don't see the commercial application. I could see fashion shooters liking it, but most rent. I doubt I'll get flyers advertising S2 packages from Fotocare/Calumet.
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I do not want to talk for Ken but I would bet it would be along the lines of "this is crazy."
David
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I just ran the basic math for a pro photographer, and this is my package, in order to responsibly walk into a basic job:
Two of the cheapo version bodies; basic warranty; no handgrip; three cheapo version lenses: $65,300.00.
("But oh wait, I could LEASE them, right? So that makes them free, right? Wonder what's the Monthly Lease Payment on $65,300.00...? I'm sure someone here could tell us.")
And they promise the camera in September, but then the truth comes out, that other necessary items are not til January 2010? (Did anybody read "The Boy That Cried Wolf"..?)
Your not that guy.
Your not Leica's target market.
Your a refurbished p45+ on a used H2 guy so you can get something from rental if you have to, process in software that works (most of the time), tethering that works (most of the time) and a price that is not retail (all of the time).
Your a gotta have a backup up camera type of guy, gotta get stuff out overnight type of guy and gotta make a profit from what you buy, so no you are not the intended market.
Because if Lecia was going to target you or any professional, even at these lottery winner prices they would have all the lenses ready NOW, a real tethering solution, live view, and a written in blood pledge to put these cameras in every major rental house in every major market.
I'm sure there we be some well known by name pros that are featured using a Leica, probably one of the Greenfields (I think there is three of them right?) and they will be videotaped using a Leica shooting a sad looking little 17 year old on white no seam, or a b celebrity and they'll say something like, "the lenses are so sharp and the handling of the camera is so elegant, it is an organic extension of my wonderful and creative thought process", but no you are not the Leica type of guy.
The thing is I do know that guy that would/could buy this camera and he won't. He's rich, a celeb, love cameras, owns every leica M lens ever made and could buy this camera in a heart beat, but he doesn't see the point, because even with all his Leica's he shoots mostly with a Canon 5d or a Nikon because the images are in focus and since he travels the world nobody is going to lift a cheap 5d out of his suitcase.
But I do predict they will sell this camera and I even believe the price point will help. Had they sold it for $10,000 then it's just a few steps ahead of the Nikon, which holds no cache when you go to the country club and somebody asks how much, you can't just say 10 large, cause at Westchester, 10 large is only the mandatory valet fees. Saying 50,000 dead prezs gets some attention, even in the land of AIG bonuses.
They are also smart for not adding live-view, or video, cause then maybe a real working professional might buy it and real working professionals are a pain in the ass because they expect things to really work.
It even works for Leica that the Phase One/Leaf/Mamiya faithful will start screaming, "see, see, my peefourtysomething plus with sensor double plus technology, has more resolution and only costs 1/2 of the Leica, cause the Mamiya is like driving a Ford Taurus and well we all know where the valet's park Fords at Westchester.
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Before responding to that question one way or the other, don't you think it would make sense to actually use the camera on an actual shoot(or two or three) and see first hand how it handles, what the files look like, and how the post-workflow functions?
Nope, I don't think it makes any sense at all. There is no possible scenario where it would make more sense than existing solutions for me, my business, or anybody I know at that price point. Is there for you? For anybody you know?
I'm a guy who buys very expensive systems, I should think I would be part of their theoretical market. For me there is no handling that would be that good, there is no file quality that would be that good, and there is no workflow that would be good enough to justify it over existing cheaper alternatives.
And besides I already know the answers- the handling will not be as good as Canon or Nikon, the files will be nice but not as nice as the files files from an Alpa (which you could buy with the savings to compliment your H or Phase body), and the workflow will be Lightroom, unless they managed to salvage something with Phase and can bundle C1.
This is the system that will kill Leica, I'll be surprised if they move a hundred of these bodies before going belly up.
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The P40+-Kit costs 25000$
The H3D-39-Kit costs 22000$
maybe those are list prices....i get demo and refurb offers (with full warranty) for almost half of that....and i think that is still too much for these systems...
i really think the S2 will be a great system but the price points of great systems have changed dramatically over the last couple of years and especially in the last year....ask franke heidecke and leaf about that....
the problem is that even at 10000 for the body and 15000 for the kit people would not have jumped on it....
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I had that same sinking feeling that many have expressed when I first saw the prices, but on closer reflection I wonder if it's reasonable.
In Canada, a new Phasemiya with a P45+ and an 80mm lens costs $30,000. A 28mm is $5500, a 45mm is $2500 and a 150mm is $3800.
While the price of the Leica is in-and-of-itself very high, the difference compare to similar MFD systems is not as dramatic.
Since I would bet my firstborn that the Leica with kick the s^@! out of the Phase and Hassy systems on handling, and maybe even image quality, I'm not sure that a lot of pros won't be tempted to take a look.
We seem to have forgotten very quickly that not so long ago a pedestrian little 39MP back was costing people upwards of $40K. It's only the development of a viable second-hand market that has made these tools even remotely accessible for non-pros.
Moreover, Phase seems to be doing fairly brisk business in the P65 backs, which are astronomically expensive.
Leica glass is special and they finally have a platform that will really exploit that to its fullest.
There are a lot of dentists and IT millionaires who will buy the S2. If a reasonable number of pros try it and like it, this camera could fly.
For the sake of the industry, I sure hope it does.
- N.
ps. that said, I think Leica would have been smarter to price the S2 body near-cost, and put as many on the street as possible. The money has to be in the lenses...
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Your not that guy.
Your not Leica's target market.
Somebody should go into YouTube and steal that Louis Vuitton video commercial, and replace the voiceover with "Leica S2: Where Will It Take You?".
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m5xCGZuvhWI (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m5xCGZuvhWI)
Or have a multiple choice ad:
"The new Leica S2. Is it:
A. A fashion accessory?
B. A status symbol?
C. An actual camera that's made to take photographs?
I wouldn't have a photographer in the ads -- that's way too Blue Collar. I'd have Sean Connery, or that James Bond actor. But then, they'd remove the camera from the leather man-purse over their shoulder, and bring it up to their eye, but they'd be holding in that trademark "I've never taken a photograph in my life" kind of way, and they'd have to do another take. You know the way -- grasping the body with both hands, with no hands on the lens at all.
I freely admit, it just hits a pet peeve with me. Rich Posers trying to get laid, or trying to impress their boss.
I have a good friend that keeps a glass-faced chest that's full of Leicas. She has four of five lens of each focal length. But what does she use when it's time to actually shoot a photograph? Her 5D, because of the Usability Factor.
All that R&D, and all that effort, and all that hair-splitting design accuracy, only to have some gold-chain-wearing Guido, composing with everything dead center, and shooting sunsets in Monte Carlo, (and probably even forgetting to put a card in the camera). If it wasn't so sad, it would be funny. But it's not.
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All that R&D, and all that effort, and all that hair-splitting design accuracy, only to have some gold-chain-wearing Guido, composing with everything dead center, and shooting sunsets in Monte Carlo, (and probably even forgetting to put a card in the camera). If it wasn't so sad, it would be funny. But it's not.
Give credit where credit is due: it's thanks to those "Guidos" Leica sells the S2 for 16k EUR instead of 26k EUR This goes for other high-end camera manufacturers as well.
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...All that R&D, and all that effort, and all that hair-splitting design accuracy, only to have some gold-chain-wearing Guido, composing with everything dead center, and shooting sunsets in Monte Carlo,...
The design effort is just the prereq. The benefit for these guys is that they can claim in all honesty they have a superior system. German quality.
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Hi,
Yes, but consider some differences:
1) The MFDB is more flexible, you can remove the back and put on something else.
2) The Leica may have better tolerances because it's not built as a modular system.
3) Leica may have better lenses
4) Leica may have better auto focus
So the MFDB is more flexible while the Leica may actuall by better ;-)
Best regards
Erik
I had that same sinking feeling that many have expressed when I first saw the prices, but on closer reflection I wonder if it's reasonable.
In Canada, a new Phasemiya with a P45+ and an 80mm lens costs $30,000. A 28mm is $5500, a 45mm is $2500 and a 150mm is $3800.
While the price of the Leica is in-and-of-itself very high, the difference compare to similar MFD systems is not as dramatic.
Since I would bet my firstborn that the Leica with kick the s^@! out of the Phase and Hassy systems on handling, and maybe even image quality, I'm not sure that a lot of pros won't be tempted to take a look.
We seem to have forgotten very quickly that not so long ago a pedestrian little 39MP back was costing people upwards of $40K. It's only the development of a viable second-hand market that has made these tools even remotely accessible for non-pros.
Moreover, Phase seems to be doing fairly brisk business in the P65 backs, which are astronomically expensive.
Leica glass is special and they finally have a platform that will really exploit that to its fullest.
There are a lot of dentists and IT millionaires who will buy the S2. If a reasonable number of pros try it and like it, this camera could fly.
For the sake of the industry, I sure hope it does.
- N.
ps. that said, I think Leica would have been smarter to price the S2 body near-cost, and put as many on the street as possible. The money has to be in the lenses...
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A. A fashion accessory?
B. A status symbol?
C. An actual camera that's made to take photographs?
I wouldn't have a photograp
Do you know what I hate about the digital age of cameras?
They don't last long enough to get beat up looking.
They got no personality.
I loved the look of my old Nikons, with the brassing, the dent in the pentaprism, the tripod scratches on the bottom and those worn marks where your hands gripped the lenses.
I could load and work those cameras after a 4 day tequila and peyote bender and knew every knob, every single control better than I knew my own right hand, which I know pretty well.
Those old cameras kind of looked like Willie Nelson's guitar, one look and you knew those cameras had seen a lot of stuff, way too much to ever talk about in public.
Now I look at the Canons, the Nikons I use and even tough I'm hard on those type of cameras, they only last a few years and boom, they're traded in for the next newer, greater, faster.
In fact with digital it's the only time I've ever held onto a camera box. I use to toss them out like a candy wrapper, never thinking that having the box, the manual, the neck strap, would add 20% of the value when I traded it in or sold it on consignment because with the film cameras, I never thought I WOULD trade them in or sell them on consignment.
I haven't even taken the clear plastic lcd cover off of my phase backs, because if they get scratched I'll probably lose another 4 grand in resale. What a pussy way to live.
That's one of the reasons I don't e-bay that huge case of Contax's, they just look like serious business and anybody can say anything they want about the new leica or mamiya, or whatever is new, but they just don't look serious.
They're too pretty and clean.
BC
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I wouldn't have a photographer in the ads -- that's way too Blue Collar. I'd have Sean Connery, or that James Bond actor. But then, they'd remove the camera from the leather man-purse over their shoulder, and bring it up to their eye, but they'd be holding in that trademark "I've never taken a photograph in my life" kind of way, and they'd have to do another take. You know the way -- grasping the body with both hands, with no hands on the lens at all.
I freely admit, it just hits a pet peeve with me. Rich Posers trying to get laid, or trying to impress their boss.
I have a good friend that keeps a glass-faced chest that's full of Leicas. She has four of five lens of each focal length. But what does she use when it's time to actually shoot a photograph? Her 5D, because of the Usability Factor.
All that R&D, and all that effort, and all that hair-splitting design accuracy, only to have some gold-chain-wearing Guido, composing with everything dead center, and shooting sunsets in Monte Carlo, (and probably even forgetting to put a card in the camera). If it wasn't so sad, it would be funny. But it's not.
This is the jealousy that will boost sales and make it more desirable to the intended market.
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Nope, I don't think it makes any sense at all. There is no possible scenario where it would make more sense than existing solutions for me, my business, or anybody I know at that price point. Is there for you? For anybody you know?
I disagree, if your alternative is medium format digital and not a Canon or Nikon. Once you are in nose bleed territory in terms of what medium format digital costs today, I personally would not let a premium of a few thousand more dollars stand in the way of what I thought was a better long-term solution. How much is it worth to you to work with an S2 body that was designed in 2008-2009 rather than a Mamiya AFD designed in 1984? I would pay a few more grand in a heartbeat for that. Do you want leaf shutter lenses in several focal lengths now or is just a rumour from Phase enough? (Sadly, I think I know the answer.)
Strangely, I think Leica missed the boat by offering the S2 with a 37.5mp sensor. Sure, it's more than enough for most applications, perhaps overkill, but if you are going to sell an uber-premium product, you should package it with an uber-premium 50-60mp sensor? 37.5mp is yesterday's news in this rarified atmosphere. Particularly if you are buying this camera for bragging rights, why get "only" 37.5mp. Do you want a Ferrari with a 300hp V-6 engine or a Ferrari with a 500hp V-12? I know what I would want.
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I disagree, if your alternative is medium format digital and not a Canon or Nikon. Once you are in nose bleed territory in terms of what medium format digital costs today, I personally would not let a premium of a few thousand more dollars stand in the way of what I thought was a better long-term solution. How much is it worth to you to work with an S2 body that was designed in 2008-2009 rather than a Mamiya AFD designed in 1984? I would pay a few more grand in a heartbeat for that. Do you want leaf shutter lenses in several focal lengths now or is just a rumour from Phase enough? (Sadly, I think I know the answer.)
Strangely, I think Leica missed the boat by offering the S2 with a 37.5mp sensor. Sure, it's more than enough for most applications, perhaps overkill, but if you are going to sell an uber-premium product, you should package it with an uber-premium 50-60mp sensor? 37.5mp is yesterday's news in this rarified atmosphere. Particularly if you are buying this camera for bragging rights, why get "only" 37.5mp. Do you want a Ferrari with a 300hp V-6 engine or a Ferrari with a 500hp V-12? I know what I would want.
I am, as you say, in the "nose bleed territory" and I wouldn't pay what they're asking. Since I have very often in the last few years paid for very expensive equipment that most people wouldn't buy, I'm wondering if I wouldn't buy it, who exactly will? You wanting a V-12 Ferrari or an S2 makes no difference. It's not a matter of whether you want it or not, it's whether you want it enough to put cash on the table for it.
I don't think it's a better long-term solution, because I don't think they will sell enough for the system to be viable, I think they've gone too far out on a limb and come up with a system that is too expensive too late, and I think it will turn out be a fatal mistake. Hey maybe I'm wrong, but I challenge you to find me an actual customer for one of these. Not a theoretical "rich dentist" or "corporate banker" that people think will be the market for this, but you, or your friend Mikey or George, who, rich dentist or not, is actually looking at the system and the prices and is going to buy one.
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I am, as you say, in the "nose bleed territory" and I wouldn't pay what they're asking. Since I have very often in the last few years paid for very expensive equipment that most people wouldn't buy, I'm wondering if I wouldn't buy it, who exactly will? You wanting a V-12 Ferrari or an S2 makes no difference. It's not a matter of whether you want it or not, it's whether you want it enough to put cash on the table for it.
You are missing my point. I am not looking to buy a $250k Ferarri, but if I were, I would go for the V-12 for an extra what, $50k, over a 300 hp V-6. If I were buying a Mercedes S Class for $90k, do you think I would skip the 4-Matic to save $5k and the nav system to save another $5k? Similarly, if I were in the market for a medium format digital camera with around 39mp, which I am not, I wouldn't buy the Phamiya P45+ or the H3D-39 over the S2 just to save a few thousand dollars, if, and it's a big if, I thought the S2 was a better overall solution for me. (I doubt it will be, but that's another matter.) I expect that the S2 will be a very tough sell for those who already own a medium format digital solution with a bunch of lenses. A new buyer in the 39mp niche is another matter.
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You are missing my point. I am not looking to buy a $250k Ferarri, but if I were, I would go for the V-12 for an extra what, $50k, over a 300 hp V-6. If I were buying a Mercedes S Class for $90k, do you think I would skip the 4-Matic to save $5k and the nav system to save another $5k? Similarly, if I were in the market for a medium format digital camera with around 39mp, which I am not, I wouldn't buy the Phamiya P45+ or the H3D-39 over the S2 just to save a few thousand dollars, if, and it's a big if, I thought the S2 was a better overall solution for me. (I doubt it will be, but that's another matter.) I expect that the S2 will be a very tough sell for those who already own a medium format digital solution with a bunch of lenses. A new buyer in the 39mp niche is another matter.
No, I heard you when you first drove up (as it were). You are saying that for a theoretical purchaser of medium format gear, what's a few thousand more when you're already spending that much? Listen, I spend a ton on gear. I'm saying as an actual purchaser of medium format gear, that I see no way to justify the purchase of an S2 system at those prices. I'm asking if you, anybody you know, or anybody on the forum is actually looking at the system and planning on buying it?
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Hey maybe I'm wrong, but I challenge you to find me an actual customer for one of these. Not a theoretical "rich dentist" or "corporate banker" that people think will be the market for this, but you, or your friend Mikey or George, who, rich dentist or not, is actually looking at the system and the prices and is going to buy one.
I have known too many pro-photographers who are remarkably ignorant. They tend to be employed by, and their equipment is paid for by others, e.g. in government agencies or studios in department stores. Unfortunately these people do not bat an eyelid when asking for the top photographic tools (Read: the excessively expensive; cameras, lenses). They'll buy this stuff, but ultimately unlikely to bail out Leica, IMHO. There is only so much premium chargeable for German Engineering. Over some 30 years I have owned the top car model of its day from Mercedes, BMW, Jaguar, Porsche, Toyota. Most satisfying was also the cheapest: Lexus (Toyota). One could also conclude something similar using Canon or Nikon. But the German cars also sell for simply being so expensive that the neighbors know it.
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You are missing my point. I am not looking to buy a $250k Ferarri, but if I were, I would go for the V-12 for an extra what, $50k, over a 300 hp V-6. If I were buying a Mercedes S Class for $90k, do you think I would skip the 4-Matic to save $5k and the nav system to save another $5k? Similarly, if I were in the market for a medium format digital camera with around 39mp, which I am not, I wouldn't buy the Phamiya P45+ or the H3D-39 over the S2 just to save a few thousand dollars, if, and it's a big if, I thought the S2 was a better overall solution for me. (I doubt it will be, but that's another matter.) I expect that the S2 will be a very tough sell for those who already own a medium format digital solution with a bunch of lenses. A new buyer in the 39mp niche is another matter.
Here is the rub: I've been offered a complete H3D239 system, and complete to me is TWO H3D239 cameras (body and back), a 50mm, an 80mm, and the 100mm for a little over $30k. An equal S2 system looks like it would be about $60k - $70k, depending if I opted for the Ostrich Penis Leather Case. Thats a whole bunch of premium for the red dot and high MTF graphs.
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No, I heard you when you first drove up (as it were). You are saying that for a theoretical purchaser of medium format gear, what's a few thousand more when you're already spending that much? Listen, I spend a ton on gear. I'm saying as an actual purchaser of medium format gear, that I see no way to justify the purchase of an S2 system at those prices. I'm asking if you, anybody you know, or anybody on the forum is actually looking at the system and planning on buying it?
No, apparently you don't listen very well. I was quite explicit that I am NOT in the market for a 39mp digital solution, so of course I am not buying one. As for what real potential buyers are thinking, who knows? I don't run consumer focus groups or take polls of fellow photographers in my spare time. Moreover, who in his right mind today would be "planning" on buying the S2. The S2 hasn't even been released. No one knows its capabilities/flaws. I think it would be a bit embarrasing for anyone to announce today, publicly or even privately, that, sight unseen, they were "planning" to buy an S2. However, it is funny to consider the possible reactions of a buyer in this market next Fall who goes into Calumet and picks up an S2 and fires off a few frames. The camera is built like a tank and falls perfectly in the hand, the images in the LCD look gorgeous, the lens looks like, well, a Leica lens, only one battery. Then, he picks up a Phase P45+ and fires off a few frames. The viewfinder jiggles around, the mirror slaps loudly, the lens feels like it's made of plastic, the camera needs two batteries, and the LCD looks like a camera phone from 1999. The Phamiya is $26,000. The S2 is $30,000. If he still goes for the Phamiya P45+, I seriously doubt it will be over the $4,000.
An interesting side note to this discussion is the Phase P65. If you believe Phase, they are selling them as fast as they can make them, and my sense is that a VERY significant percentage of these backs at $40,000 a pop is going to individuals who are not working professional photographers. If the S2 fails, it will not be just because of the price tag.
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Tell you what, if the camera is exceptionally good, there are plenty of photographers with enough money to burn on their latest fancy. No need for the dentists.
Apparently it's not all doom and gloom for everybody. This may sound like an old fart, but in my 25 years as a photographer, I've always heard photographers moan about how bad things are, no-one is hiring, blah, blah. It's always been bad....for some. Farmers always moan too, every year is a bad year.
Hell I paid more than that for an Imacon back about seven years ago and I didn't bat an eyelid. Why? Because I knew it would make me lots of money, which fortunately it did.
For many photographers, this toy is the equivalent to one or two short shoots.
Edward
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Most satisfying was also the cheapest: Lexus (Toyota). One could also conclude something similar using Canon or Nikon. But the German cars also sell for simply being so expensive that the neighbors know it.
In the film days, we were talking mechanics and gearing. That's where the German engineering really stood out. But now, these cameras are more Computer than anything else, and that's where I think the Japanese are leapfrogging everyone. You want engineering: Just scroll down the Menu choices of a 1ds3 or a 5D2, compared to the Menu choices of a Phase back or a Sinar back.
Not sure that "German engineering" is the Trump Card that it used to be, in the days of Sinar 4x5 and such. And let's not even get into the high-ASA quality, and amazing Video Quality of the 5D2, (retail: $2600, out the door, with white walls).
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Somebody should go into YouTube and steal that Louis Vuitton video commercial, and replace the voiceover with "Leica S2: Where Will It Take You?".
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m5xCGZuvhWI (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m5xCGZuvhWI)
Or have a multiple choice ad:
f*ck! thats a cool ad
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Hell I paid more than that for an Imacon back about seven years ago and I didn't bat an eyelid. Why? Because I knew it would make me lots of money, which fortunately it did.
In terms of opportunity costs, the real question is not whether the Leica could yield some money, but whether it could yield more money than the many other available options like:
- working with a P65+ if quality is really key,
- working with a D3x if DR, live view and/or speed/accuracy of focus are important to your applications,
- buying Yahoo stock today...
Cheers,
Bernard
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In the film days, we were talking mechanics and gearing. That's where the German engineering really stood out. But now, these cameras are more Computer than anything else, and that's where I think the Japanese are leapfrogging everyone. You want engineering: Just scroll down the Menu choices of a 1ds3 or a 5D2, compared to the Menu choices of a Phase back or a Sinar back.
Not sure that "German engineering" is the Trump Card that it used to be, in the days of Sinar 4x5 and such. And let's not even get into the high-ASA quality, and amazing Video Quality of the 5D2, (retail: $2600, out the door, with white walls).
I dont know if comparisation of superiority of german and japanese, or whatever technology makes sense in the discussion. Undoubtely the Japanese are ahead in the sense you describe. I used the term "german engineering" merely for describing a marketing perception. Not that everybody agrees on this perception, thats not the point. But some will I guess.
All in all, from what I gather here, it might be that the S2 could appeal to and be paid by a slightly wider audience than one might think, for entirely different reasons. At the same time, it seems to be sure that at this point, nobody really expects it to become the mainstream camera for the professional photographer.
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In terms of opportunity costs, the real question is not whether the Leica could yield some money, but whether it could yield more money than the many other available options like:
- working with a P65+ if quality is really key,
- working with a D3x if DR, live view and/or speed/accuracy of focus are important to your applications,
- buying Yahoo stock today...
Cheers,
Bernard
Say the camera handles well, produces beautiful colour, density, good high ISO, without too much tweaking and is robust. Then you compare it against the nearest equivalent that does the job too, but doesn't quite feel the same in the hands, requires a little more tweaking, etc. The feel good factor alone is worth some money to some, particularly if they use the camera every day.
If they get it right, it will sell, and those who buy it are not necessarily stupid, they are clever enough to have earned the money in the first place.
It's the same argument when you aspire to Broncolor lighting instead of Bowens, or a Sinar camera instead of a Cambo, they all do basically the same job, but you just buy the best because you can. And you can offset it against taxes. If you pay a high rate of tax, at a stroke the camera is costing you 40 per cent less (in the UK).
Edward
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It's the same argument when you aspire to Broncolor lighting instead of Bowens, or a Sinar camera instead of a Cambo, they all do basically the same job, but you just buy the best because you can. And you can offset it against taxes. If you pay a high rate of tax, at a stroke the camera is costing you 40 per cent less (in the UK).
Right... and why then don't you use a Bentley as your company car?
This being said, I think that I do now understand why the S2 is so expensive. I believe that it reflects the investement in candles Leica had to do to sustain their prayers that Canon/Nikon don't enter the MF market in the coming months...
Cheers,
Bernard
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what i understand at no level is how people even can expect that the s2 will be better or even equalt than the phase/leaf/h/sinar backs?
how many people praise it as if it would be crystal clear that this camera will reach immediately the top end of digital imaging. i bet it wont.
all experience from the past showed that leica is at the point where one should expect that they should be after startup. many components have been developed by third parties, as the m8 digital part by jenoptik.
the m8 might be a nice camera, the ir flaw was not wanted by noone nor by leica not by jenoptik. even in the filmdays some of their lenses have been crap too ( leice 28pc, 28-70 zoom ). yes i know this lenses have been made by schneider / sigma and the m8 ny jenoptik but leica sold branded and selected it ( and asked the double price than their counterparts for the lenses ).
i dont expect great things from the s2 till i worked with it, what i wont do because i dont have interest for this product in my field of work.
anyway, after a while we will read how good the thing will be and what will be myth on it.
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Some observations about this thread:
1. It reminds me of similar threads about the P25, P45 P65 etc - it's too expensive, no-one will buy it!
2. It's a Leica - all bets are off regarding desirability/practicality/pricing.
3. If you can't afford it, don't buy it - whether you can afford it or not is a totally personal decision.
4. It might just be awesome and indeed worth the money.
5. Some pros use their gear as a marketing aid - ad agencies have been known to pooh-pooh Canons and Nikons, insisting on MFDBs even when the ad is going to be run at A4. Name dropping 'Leica' might be worth it to some.
6. Price is not always a determinant for buying. The Holden Monaro outperforms the BMW M3 and costs a lot less - but it's not a BMW. Branding!
Having just taken a Phamiya/P45+ out for a weeks shooting in Kakadu I can say that it certainly trounces any Canon/Nikon in the quality stakes - as you'd expect. But at AUD53,000 (with the wonderful 28mm) it's not every going to be affordable by just anyone. The Canon/Nikon is better value but it's not as good from a pure quality perspective. Cost, quality, convenience - pick any two. It's quite possible that the S2 just takes this further, with more cost, but maybe more convenience and quality too.
Let's wait and see...
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6. Price is not always a determinant for buying. The Holden Monaro outperforms the BMW M3 and costs a lot less - but it's not a BMW. Branding!
As long as the road is straight...
Cheers,
Bernard
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As long as the road is straight...
Cheers,
Bernard
Check out some of the Top Gear videos - surprisingly the Monaro is pretty good in the corners, as long as you like going sideways!
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5. Some pros use their gear as a marketing aid - ad agencies have been known to pooh-pooh Canons and Nikons, insisting on MFDBs even when the ad is going to be run at A4. Name dropping 'Leica' might be worth it to some.
Nick,
I think this point may have been true, to a degree, a few years ago, but now, well, times change. The only name that means anything to the CD's I work with is RED. No matter what kind of camera you have, Leica, Red, Phase, etc., if you aren't a known quantity to an agency or friends of the decision makers at an agency, you aren't getting a job doing craft services on a shoot.
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For many photographers, this toy is the equivalent to one or two short shoots.
Edward
No, for a *very few* photographers this might be the equivalent of one or two short shoots. How many photographers in the US keep ~$50,000 (a one-camera system with four lenses) after their expenses for one or two short shoots...a number which would imply an income of ~$2.5 million or so after expenses...which would imply a gross north of $20 million annually? Damn few. Is there any possibility that all of those damn few will buy a Leica? Or even, any of them -- if they're making $20 million with the Hassy, how willing would they be to risk it by shooting an unknown system?
There's a lot of b.s. floating around about "pros" and what they might do. I have a large income and the main "instrument" I use in my work is a Mac -- and it's four years old. I could easily afford another $3,000 Mac, but why would I? The one I have is fine. If you're a top-end "one or two short shoots" pro, you're already using high-end digital backs. If you buy a new one, it's a tax deduction, but after the deduction, if you're in this tax bracket, you still pay 60% of the cost out of your own pocket. For that $30,000 you could have a great month in Europe.
I have a digital M8 and I'm hoping against hope that Leica makes money from the S2 so they can afford to build the M9 and keep the M digital system going. I think the one possibility is that there are enough luxury buyers and specialist shooters who need the particular qualities of this camera, that Leica will sell enough to make enough to at least break even. That's my hope. I don't think pros will figure that strongly in the equation.
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No, for a *very few* photographers this might be the equivalent of one or two short shoots. How many photographers in the US keep ~$50,000 (a one-camera system with four lenses) after their expenses for one or two short shoots...a number which would imply an income of ~$2.5 million or so after expenses...which would imply a gross north of $20 million annually? Damn few. Is there any possibility that all of those damn few will buy a Leica? Or even, any of them -- if they're making $20 million with the Hassy, how willing would they be to risk it by shooting an unknown system?
There's a lot of b.s. floating around about "pros" and what they might do. I have a large income and the main "instrument" I use in my work is a Mac -- and it's four years old. I could easily afford another $3,000 Mac, but why would I? The one I have is fine. If you're a top-end "one or two short shoots" pro, you're already using high-end digital backs. If you buy a new one, it's a tax deduction, but after the deduction, if you're in this tax bracket, you still pay 60% of the cost out of your own pocket. For that $30,000 you could have a great month in Europe.
I have a digital M8 and I'm hoping against hope that Leica makes money from the S2 so they can afford to build the M9 and keep the M digital system going. I think the one possibility is that there are enough luxury buyers and specialist shooters who need the particular qualities of this camera, that Leica will sell enough to make enough to at least break even. That's my hope. I don't think pros will figure that strongly in the equation.
I do see their system unique in some ways.
dust and moisture proofing.
Smaller body.
Hopefully better high ISO and faster shooting speeds.
Lenses that are not reliant on digital fixes.
Dng
This may not seem important to some but i do see the advantage of a system that you can have rain or sea spray on and not have to worry about it failing.
I had to send my hasseblad in to have the cover glass replaced due to moisture getting in there.
I also took some pictures of a boat recently and spent more time worrying about keeping the camera dry then actually taking photos.
If it is as reliable as a canon one series system with the output of a hasseblad that would be quite something.
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How many photographers in the US keep ~$50,000 (a one-camera system with four lenses) after their expenses for one or two short shoots...a number which would imply an income of ~$2.5 million or so after expenses...which would imply a gross north of $20 million annually?
Err, I think you are using a super-charged algorithm here. If your overheads are in the proportion that you suggest, then a visit to your accountant may be advisable.
Edward
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Leica RIP 1913-2010 ... well they almost made it to 100
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in Germany >> http://www.meister-camera.com (http://www.meister-camera.com)
* Leica S2 : 18600 €
* Summarit-S 35 mm f/2,5 Asph. : 4200 €
* Summarit-S 35 mm f/2,5 Asph. CS : 4920 €
* Summarit-S 70 mm f/2,5 Asph. : 3600 €
* Summarit-S 70 mm f/2,5 Asph. CS : 4680 €
* Apo-Macro-Summarit-S 120 mm f/2,5 : 5280 €
* Apo-Macro-Summarit-S 120 mm f/2,5 CS : 6000 €
* Apo-Tele-Elmar-S 180 mm f/3,5 : 5280 €
* Apo-Tele-Elmar-S 180 mm f/3,5 CS : 6000 €
the lenses are pretty cheap :-)
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* Leica S2 : 18600 €
the camera price in that leica amateur shop in hamburg and berlin is € 15630.- + 19% tax.
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What is interesting, in this and other forums, is that the usual Leica dealers/promoters have been absent since the Official US Pricing Announcement was made. No explanation, no justification for the Leica marketing strategy.
The silence is deafening.
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Tired of the relentless erosion of their financial position and market share, disappointed by sales of their M8, Leica evidently have decided to commit corporate suicide. In the midst of the worst economic recession since 1930, the S2 is being priced at the "are you joking?" level.
I'm sure the lenses will be very nice. But Leica's track record with digital sensors is nothing to be proud of. I can't imagine what's going through their corporate minds.
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yes suicide or joke
same price than an Hasselblad H3DII 50 mp :-)
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yes suicide or joke
same price than an Hasselblad H3DII 50 mp :-)
since longer time i just asked myself if some of these companies make consciously suicides, so crazy seems their firm politics to me.icide
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Hasselblad and RED must be very happy :-)
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since longer time i just asked myself if some of these companies make consciously suicides, so crazy seems their firm politics to me.
Let's be honest: This financial downhill slide only really began about eighteen months ago. Before that, MF was the rage of the town, and the 5D2 and all its video craze had not yet begun. So to Leica's credit, maybe they got together one day and said, "Hey, let's show these guys how it SHOULD be done, if you were building something from the ground up, (instead of trying to blow some new hot air inside a tired Mamiya 645 body)".
So they started on the project. Then the economy tanked, seemingly almost overnight.
So they had two choices:
1. Pull the plug and eat the investment.
2. Put their heads now, forge ahead, and try to weather the storm.
Apparently, they chose Option 2. Time will tell whether they can hold out long enough. But I'd be prepping those ads for placement in Cigar Aficianado, and the Robb Report, instead of Popular Photography. They need some quick cash.
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If its the same price as a Hassy H3D-II/50MP, why not go with the S2 then?
OK, there are questions on support available, Hassy lenses you might already have.
That said aside, is it obvious that the S2 cannot compete with the Hassy?
If so, why?
Peter
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If its the same price as a Hassy H3D-II/50MP, why not go with the S2 then?
The H3DII-50 has
- a larger sensor (48x36) and thus a larger number of basically the same pixels (the new generation Kodak CCDs with 6 micron cell)
- a far more extensive lens system available now, as opposed to promised in future years.
- an extensive professional support network, rental options, etc.
So the better question is why for the same money would one go for the S system, apart from status seeking?
If one trusts computed MTF graphs as a measure of image quality, are those for Leica S lenses better than for the H system lenses, and by enough to offset the roughly 20% greater degree of enlargement needed to get a given size of print from the S2?
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"depending if I opted for the Ostrich Penis Leather Case" -TMARK Absolutely brilliant my friend!
In a way the S2 reminds me of the AFI/HY6. Last year around this time (at one of the biggest photo dealers in the US) I asked how many they sold. The answer was either 0 or 1. I forget which, but is there a difference?. They had one they "could" put in rental, but no one had asked about it ,so it was still in the box (didn't want to get it dirty?). In my mind this was a really really nice "modern" camera with "superior German engineering" with probably the sharpest set of Lenses in MF. Funny, isn't this what people are trumpeting about the S2? The price (like the leica) for both the kit (with pop up WLF!) was solidly more than the competition as were the lenses. In my mind on paper at the start this camera had a such promise for success, yet we all know what happened to it. I'd bet dollars to doughnuts the Leica gets a similarly cool response. What I have noticed with many "big" shooters I know is that they have put their Phases/H down and gone canon more and more. It is in the words of many, "good enough". Its fast and easy, and finally tethering is decent. These are guys that can buy ANY camera. But, the easy autofocus and ease of use and speed just trumps the phase stuff and NO AD questions which camera these people use. People that shoot both will tell you the Phase file is better ,and it is, but too many people IQ doesn't outweigh the systems detractions. My bet: the 1dsIV (2010?) with 30+mp 1080p 24 and the new Reds will kill what's left of Leica and.... the rest of MFD unless some yet unseen MFD product arrives (seemingly doubtful) - Jeff
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It is in the words of many, "good enough". Its fast and easy, and finally tethering is decent. These are guys that can buy ANY camera. But, the easy autofocus and ease of use and speed just trumps the phase stuff and NO AD questions which camera these people use. People that shoot both will tell you the Phase file is better ,and it is, but too many people IQ doesn't outweigh the systems detractions.
You've got many camps here -- you've got the MTF Chart Guys, and the Theory Guys, and the Chip Design Guys, and the Commercial Photographers and the Landscape Photographers. Everybody's invested in some way. The MTF guys I'm sure are loving the IDEA of this camera, but like Anton asks, "How many will actually write a check?". And for the pros, most of them rent anyway, so how many of them are going to write the check? So who does that leave -- Lars The Broker, in Austria, and Antonio The Coke Dealer, in Milan?
When I look at my Phase files at 100%, clearly they are superior to the 1ds3 or 5D2, but at arm's length, (the way 99% of people look at a photograph), the Canon files appear sharper because there is more inherent depth of focus, due to the smaller chip. Try it yourself -- set up a scene and shoot the MF and 35 and see which FEELS sharper when you're holding a 17x22 print in your hands, (at normal viewing distance; not Electron Microscope distance).
Also, what good is 50MP if you're light is dying, and you've got to drop to a 30th, and the mirror slap kills all 50MP of sharpness? Whereas, with the Nikon/Canon, you don't bat an eye at running the ASA on up to 800, to keep a safe shutter speed.
And my true feeling is, the 1ds3/5d2 file is more than just "good enough". It's simply a damn fine file, especially if you're shooting for money, which means either RGB at 72, or CMYK at 300. Work for hours, retouching a picture that's got a lot of blue in it, whether it's from Phase, Sinar, Leaf, Canon or Nikon, and then SoftProof it in CMYK -- it is The Great Equalizer. All those tens of thousands of dollars spent for 16 bit Medium Format, and it all washes down the drain when you convert to CMYK. So I ask you, Why spend the money...?
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"depending if I opted for the Ostrich Penis Leather Case" -TMARK Absolutely brilliant my friend!
In a way the S2 reminds me of the AFI/HY6. Last year around this time (at one of the biggest photo dealers in the US) I asked how many they sold. The answer was either 0 or 1. I forget which, but is there a difference?. They had one they "could" put in rental, but no one had asked about it ,so it was still in the box (didn't want to get it dirty?). In my mind this was a really really nice "modern" camera with "superior German engineering" with probably the sharpest set of Lenses in MF. Funny, isn't this what people are trumpeting about the S2? The price (like the leica) for both the kit (with pop up WLF!) was solidly more than the competition as were the lenses. In my mind on paper at the start this camera had a such promise for success, yet we all know what happened to it. I'd bet dollars to doughnuts the Leica gets a similarly cool response. What I have noticed with many "big" shooters I know is that they have put their Phases/H down and gone canon more and more. It is in the words of many, "good enough". Its fast and easy, and finally tethering is decent. These are guys that can buy ANY camera. But, the easy autofocus and ease of use and speed just trumps the phase stuff and NO AD questions which camera these people use. People that shoot both will tell you the Phase file is better ,and it is, but too many people IQ doesn't outweigh the systems detractions. My bet: the 1dsIV (2010?) with 30+mp 1080p 24 and the new Reds will kill what's left of Leica and.... the rest of MFD unless some yet unseen MFD product arrives (seemingly doubtful) - Jeff
i sign that.
and more so because canon started to fill the niches which still had remained, i think here in the 17 and 24tse lenses, which are also not 100% on par with rodenstock/schneider equivalents, but they dont show distortion and i bet they are "good enough" too for 98% of all architectural photographs which work professional and will give what the mf backs till today not couldnt: a decent live view. i didnt expect this niche- filling but it looks like as the canon/nikon guys are thinking about how to take over the market ... and they do pretty well.
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there is an interview with a leica guy on the "outcry" over the S2 pricing...so within one day, leica has to go online justifying the price of a STILL NOT AVAILABLE camera.....well i guess they got a lot of press about this....
the point is not if leica is int he same price range as the other DMF makers....those guys have established systems, proven track record, support system, rental system,....leica has none of that....and despite all the mystic qualities, their digital record is plain awful...but there are a lot of m8 believers out there...now...years later...and only because there are more m lenses available then pretty much any other system i know of....
on paper the S2 looks like a great solution and can easily go head to head with all other DMF.....and probably beat them for the most part.....
but i think we all agree that DMF is a shrinking market....the economy is one part, more and more capable DSLRs are the much bigger part.....and in the end.....as much as i would like to have an S2 system, if i really needed the ultimate resolution and quality i would still have to go with a P65 and get stuck with a mamiya again....i would not like it at all and would much rather enjoy the S2, it will not provide the ultimate quality....and for 90% quality or way good enough for print or pretty much any professional application and much better handling, track record, high iso, faster,....there is the 2500 5DII...which just cannot be ignored in this discussion......and also takes leica lenses.....
so leica entered a dramatically shrinking market in the middle of the biggest recession we have seen in a long time and really does not even compete on price....good luck....
if anyone wants to get a DMF system with a proven record, the best lenses out there....30+mpix Hy6 with schneider lenses are available for less then 15000 these days.....
i was talking with some working pros about the S2 yesterday.....we had all agreed that we would take on in a second....but at what price....and really everybody is happy with their systems right now (canon, nikon or existing DMF) so there was really no price point....and who would trade in their working, proven phase? even if it was a straight exchange?
i guess the worst thing i can think is...as much as i want it, if i won 10million tomorrow, i still would not buy the S2...but i would write a blank check and send it off to leica for the first m9.....i really hope the S2 won't kill them....
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i sign that.
and more so because canon started to fill the niches which still had remained, i think here in the 17 and 24tse lenses, which are also not 100% on par with rodenstock/schneider equivalents, but they dont show distortion and i bet they are "good enough" too for 98% of all architectural photographs which work professional and will give what the mf backs till today not couldnt: a decent live view. i didnt expect this niche- filling but it looks like as the canon/nikon guys are thinking about how to take over the market ... and they do pretty well.
Exactly why I bought the 17 and 24 (and more specifically kept them after using).
All this hubub over the S2 is funny, that's why I follow this thread.
Leica is a luxury item. It will be bought because it amuses and charms those who desire it and can afford it. Working photographers (heaven help them), those who must earn money through photography, are not meant to have this camera. One of the best ways to be a successful and happy photographer is not to need to earn money through photography. NYC is full of them.
This camera will find its way into some major photo studios. Walter Chin's Car of the Month would be an appropriate chariot. Or possibly the bag of Gisele's boyfriend.
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And my true feeling is, the 1ds3/5d2 file is more than just "good enough". It's simply a damn fine file, especially if you're shooting for money, which means either RGB at 72, or CMYK at 300. Work for hours, retouching a picture that's got a lot of blue in it, whether it's from Phase, Sinar, Leaf, Canon or Nikon, and then SoftProof it in CMYK -- it is The Great Equalizer. All those tens of thousands of dollars spent for 16 bit Medium Format, and it all washes down the drain when you convert to CMYK. So I ask you, Why spend the money...?
The Phamiya P65 is $40,000. Have you see some of the photographs being taken with these cameras?
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Is Leica really aiming for the tiny shred of the market who need a camera that fits both of these needs:
1.) Weatherproof, 35mm handling, better AF, fast focal plane shutter
2.) Image quality exceeding that of a camera known to be sufficient to print 24x36 inches, with 11 stops of DR
If you need weatherproofness, handling and AF that exceeds ANY medium format solution (including the Leica), there's the D3x (and, soon, Canon's answer to the D3x as well) - gallery prints up to 24x36 aren't a problem.
If you're a high end fashion or product pro who routinely prints above 24x36, you are probably shooting indoors anyway (so weatherproofing doesn't matter), and want every lens to be leaf-shutter - Hasselblad will sell you a 50 mp body and lens for less than Leica's 37 mp option, additional lenses are cheaper as well, and they have the HTS adapter.
The medium format makers are already playing "who's afraid of the D3x" - answer: the whole MF market, and here comes Leica trying to thread the needle between the D3x and DMF, at a substantially higher cost than either. To be competitive, Leica would have needed to split the difference in price between the D3x and the H3D2-50 more or less equally, as the S2 is right in between in features; not go slightly above the H3D2-50 on price...
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The Phamiya P65 is $40,000. Have you see some of the photographs being taken with these cameras?
I'm sure the P65+ and the Hassie50 are stellar, no doubt. But that's not my world. I'll leave that to Gursky, Crewdson, and Soth.
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I'm sure the P65+ and the Hassie50 are stellar, no doubt. But that's not my world. I'll leave that to Gursky, Crewdson, and Soth.
Sorry for not being clear. I was not being complimentary about the quality of many of the photographs I have seen taken with P65s, either on a technical or artistic level. My point is that there are apparently many photographers out there willing to pay $40,000 for a camera system that cannot in any rational way be justified by "need". They buy them because they can afford them, and they are the top of the heap in megapixels.
BTW, if the S2 had a 60mp chip, I think the S2 would be viewed as much better value than the 37.5mp model Leica is now selling for $23,000, even if it cost $10,000 more. Again, look at the P65 price and the price of the forthcoming Hasselblad 60mp H3D. No one seems to be freaking over those prices.
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No one seems to be freaking over those prices.
I don't think it's the price of the body. I think it's the price of the lenses, or more accurately, the price of a Complete System, and having to take a hit on the (depreciated) stuff that you already own, (and might still be making lease payments on).
Coupled with the fear that you might be paying Full Retail on a system that might be dead in the water in a year or two, if it takes the company down with it.
Interesting that Mr. Lease A Leica has not stepped forward with more "strategic investment strategies".
Here's Samy's form, 24 to 60 months: http://www.samys.com/leasing.php (http://www.samys.com/leasing.php)
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I say, who cares about the S2? Big deal
What I'm waiting for is that animated spinning gif that's been promised for a while now
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BTW, if the S2 had a 60mp chip, I think the S2 would be viewed as much better value than the 37.5mp model Leica is now selling for $23,000, even if it cost $10,000 more. Again, look at the P65 price and the price of the forthcoming Hasselblad 60mp H3D. No one seems to be freaking over those prices.
Many people obviously are freaking over those prices. If the P65+ were 15.000 US$ - a huge amount of money for a camera still - I would be shooting with one and tens of thousands of photographers would be as well (providing it had in back live view that is to say...).
Cheers,
Bernard
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Many people obviously are freaking over those prices. If the P65+ were 15.000 US$ - a huge amount of money for a camera still - I would be shooting with one and tens of thousands of photographers would be as well (providing it had in back live view that is to say...).
Cheers,
Bernard
wait a bit and you`ll get it for this price....
the time where it made sense to run out and to buy the newest hottest stuff is over, at least if taking a rational view to the tools.
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Many people obviously are freaking over those prices. If the P65+ were 15.000 US$ - a huge amount of money for a camera still - I would be shooting with one and tens of thousands of photographers would be as well (providing it had in back live view that is to say...).
Cheers,
Bernard
So would I, if it were weather-sealed, as responsive as a DSLR and had long lenses adequate to the P65's sampling rate.
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Many people obviously are freaking over those prices. If the P65+ were 15.000 US$ - a huge amount of money for a camera still - I would be shooting with one and tens of thousands of photographers would be as well (providing it had in back live view that is to say...).
Cheers,
Bernard
i am not so sure that there would be THAT many more people getting it....for someone who needs it, the price really does not matter and for all others i would recommend working with files like that...just from one shoot....60mpix is my biggest nightmare.....the storage alone....5-10gb 16 layered tiffs....no thanks.....
i never got into digital to get the highest end toy every year....i had to do that for a long time simply because the highest end was barely good enough to compare to 35mm or later 645 film.....once the quality hit 6x7 film i was happy to stop that nonsense....plus at that time, other things happened.....the ability to shoot 6x7 film quality at several frames/sec (if i wanted to) in a way smaller package (then my old fuji 680) and up to 1200iso (if i wanted to)....
of course the S2 would be a much better deal if it did 60mpix.....that resolution IS a real step up.......but i know what would make it sell...usable 1200 or 1600 from DMF and a real DSLR like AF with 16 focus points...and actually: faster lenses.....schneider has much faster lenses covering a much larger area and the are the ones to beat....maybe that is the problem with the S2....it does everything...hopefully well....but nothing really so much better.....
anyway...all this is a mute discussion anyway....we have no clue if the thing actually works, if the files even compare to a P40 andwe really won't know any of that until the whole system ships...which is in 4 months....i can't wait to see what fun things will be announced by then and how the S2 will look compared to those toys....
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BTW, if the S2 had a 60mp chip, I think the S2 would be viewed as much better value than the 37.5mp model Leica is now selling for $23,000, even if it cost $10,000 more. Again, look at the P65 price and the price of the forthcoming Hasselblad 60mp H3D. No one seems to be freaking over those prices.
I think you're missing a few points here, Howard.
The S2 is as closed a system as it gets and several of the few lenses "scheduled" to be released will not be released until next year. There are dozens of new AND used lenses available with or without adapters for all current existing MF digital cameras. Many of these are available (used) at very reasonable prices. You can't say that for the S2.
The P65 can also be used on view cameras. And with respect to the Hasselblad also being a closed system; at least one can upgrade the back if and when new technologies emerge enabling cleaner high iso shooting, wider dynamic range or any number of other improvements which may (or may not) appear in the next couple years. With the Leica you are stuck with that 37 megapixel sensor for the life of the body.
Leica is so confident about the reliability of this camera (and lenses) that they are offering "premium" service contracts at inflated prices. What does this do for those who don't purchase such contracts? It moves them to the back of the line... a fine "thank you" for those who didn't shell out the additional thousands for the premium camera coverage or many hundreds for the lens coverage. Who are the fools who came up with this policy?
Mamiya, Phase, Hasselblad etc don't have to go back to Solms to be serviced. Leica does. I had an APO lens go back to Solms (after Leica NJ reassembled it improperly after a cleaning) three times for a total of 14 months before they got it right. The second time they mounted the tripod collar on the lens in such a way that I couldn't shoot the lens from a horizontal position when it was tripod mounted! And it left Solms this way!
All of the other MF systems are proven and available for rental across the country. There is nothing remotely similar about the S2.
Sorry my friend. We're talking an impossible uphill battle for an unproven, grotesquely overpriced system that is too little, too late and for way too much money.
Finally, is it in Leica's interest to be known as the maker of a camera that can only be purchased by Sheiks and investment bankers? Is that what this has all degenerated to?
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my deepest condolences to S2
hopefully not to M9
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Hasselblad and RED must be very happy :-)
I disagree.
I think this announcement by Leica throws a taint over the entire Medium Format segment -- Phase and Hasselblad included -- and just pushes newcomers toward the 35DSLR options. It's just one more log in the fire to make people think that Medium Format is not responding to the needs of photographers.
Here you've got weird news about Sinar; F&H biting the dust; Leaf being bought at a Yard Sale; and only two Medium Format players still standing. And now, the crazy mentality of Leica.
It helps no one in the Medium Format segment. It only sends them running to Canon and Nikon, where a top-notch camera body, (with LiveView and HD Video) can be purchased for the same amount of money as a Leica S2 Service Contract. When you see the price on that Service Contract, it doesn't give you the WarmFuzzies about Leica reliability, does it? And when the reaction to the pricing makes the company panic and run to their PR Company and draft a White Paper of Talking Points to counter all outrage, you just know there's Trouble brewing, and the vultures are circling:
http://tinyurl.com/mwlbbk (http://tinyurl.com/mwlbbk)
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Most fascinating strategy Leica comes up with. Anticyclical marketing may be? <grins>
I shot with Sinar, now Phase one, and own a Sony (If someone would have told me that 2 years ago, I would have laughed). Yes, the Dalsa and Kodak Files are better, beyond any doubts, then again, if I look at prints made from Sony/Zeiss, honestly, I am a happy camper because I have to take into account what TCO burden I have on my shoulders.
A year ago or so Michael wrote something about the gap closing, and I think this will be more true in the very near future, so I can not but wonder, whether this shake up in the market, and the anticyclic move of leica points towards more than only a temporary shake up. Canon, Nikon and Sony with thier flagships have a very solid, assumingly growing marketshare. The MFDB market is very small, and naturally people start to wonder about TCO, particulary in the times ahead.
I am with Rainer on most points in that respect, a MK4 and others will close the gap even further and I would think that already small market for MF will shrink more. Will it shrink to a point where it does not make economical sense anymore to produce MFDB's?
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Leica is so confident about the reliability of this camera (and lenses) that they are offering "premium" service contracts at inflated prices. What does this do for those who don't purchase such contracts? It moves them to the back of the line... a fine "thank you" for those who didn't shell out the additional thousands for the premium camera coverage or many hundreds for the lens coverage. Who are the fools who came up with this policy?
Yup, utterly insane!
My expensive insurance covers more for a fraction of their package cost. I can not think of anyone with their heads screwed on to purchase these premium contracts.
Ah well, as you said, their prosective clients list and pre orders must be located in the land of camels and oil. Only with such clients as purchasers they can succeed, and they do not care about ir bugs, probably are not even aware about it when they shoot oil rigs from the back of their camels. LOL
The whole thing is turning into a joke, starting with their mouthfull about equal quality to 50MP and ending with their premium contract. Looks like one of these marketing yuppies had a line too many.
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Leica is so confident about the reliability of this camera (and lenses) that they are offering "premium" service contracts at inflated prices. What does this do for those who don't purchase such contracts? It moves them to the back of the line... a fine "thank you" for those who didn't shell out the additional thousands for the premium camera coverage or many hundreds for the lens coverage. Who are the fools who came up with this policy?
nobody has to buy the camera or the service contract.
btw "The Hasselblad Camera Care Plan" is not very different, no?
http://www.hasselblad.de/service--support/...-care-plan.aspx (http://www.hasselblad.de/service--support/the-hasselblad-camera-care-plan.aspx)
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nobody has to buy the camera or the service contract.
btw "The Hasselblad Camera Care Plan" is not very different, no?
http://www.hasselblad.de/service--support/...-care-plan.aspx (http://www.hasselblad.de/service--support/the-hasselblad-camera-care-plan.aspx)
But that's the point: they won't at those prices.
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You're being a bit optimistic here, Bernard.
Edmund
I bet you a good belgian beer that nobody will be able to tell the different on an A2 print between a D3x+Nikkor AF-S 1.4 and the S2+Summarit-S 1:2.5/80 at f2.8.
Cheers,
Bernard
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Another aspect of this whole thing is the continuing development of software (and firmware) camera and lens "correction" tools. I don't think we're anywhere near the end of that process. The pride of the Leica system isn't really the sensor, it's the DSLR-like body and the lenses. Everybody keeps talking about the lenses, and how good they will be. But it seems to me that if you start with an excellent lens like a Nikon or Canon pro-grade, it's conceivable that a D3x image could be "corrected" to emulate almost anything produced by "the best" lenses from Leica. All we're really talking about is data.
When Bernard says he doesn't think you'll be able to see a difference between a FF and MF system at A2 or whatever, well, you may be able to see a difference in an unadjusted image on-screen at 200% now, but nobody using these high-end machines is really peddling unadjusted images. What about the "adjusted" ones, as the software gets better and better? The gap now is narrow. I suspect software is going to make it much narrower -- help the lower IQ photos more than the high-IQ shots -- and at some point, fairly soon, the gap will become so narrow that nobody will care.
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nobody has to buy the camera or the service contract.
btw "The Hasselblad Camera Care Plan" is not very different, no?
Al,
If you are a working pro who is doing a high budget/high paying gig you have no choice but to buy the service plan. There won't be lots of available S2's in rental departments of pro camera stores so you won't be able to run out and rent one while your camera is sitting in a long cue in Solms. You'll have to have two bodies for starters... if you don't want to be caught with your pants down when the s___ hits the fan.
Many who might be considering the S2, if smart, will be embracing a "wait and see" perspective before purchasing as they'll want to see if this thing is really going to perform as advertised (as well as allow time for the few pro dealers to stock their rental departments with the necessary S2 cameras and lenses). By the time this all sorts itself out there will be improvements in sensor technology that will make the S2 less and less interesting. This is inevitable. The only thing that is debatable is the amount of time before sensor technology moves Leica's S2 sensor to the back of the pack. At that time you'll be stuck with a body that may be more ergonomic than the competition at the cost of having inferior image capture capabilities, and that will only get worse with time since the sensor is a permanent part of the camera (unlike the existing competition).
Lawrence
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You folks are somehow funny;
If one takes all of these comments very literal, the combined message is:
- Any manufactuerer out there: Please don't develop any new system, since Canon and Nikon is the end of all
- Since whatever that new system will be or do, we have already other bodies and lenses.
Its the classical behavior of tactical, transaction oriented thinking; with "transaction" I mean just looking at the incremental cost of buying a new camera and using that as decision point; rather than pulling the lens back in terms of your overall situation. My point is actually unrelated to Leica's S2.
I describe you my situation:
- I have a Canon 5D-II and a good selection of Canon L glass, system value approx. 10k
- I have a Hassy 503cw and Aptus back, and Zeiss glass; system value approx. 6k today
- I have a Mamiya7, two lenses, system maybe worth 3k.
If I would go for a S2, I would considering selling all three systems mentioned above, which might provide funds of at least 15k.
I would evaluate a purchasing decision for a S2 on that basis - incremental cost over funds from divesting other systems, reduction in complexity of camera hardware and raw software. That creates a different economical picture.
Whether the S2 is the camera that would allow me to do that, is a different question; ISO performance would probably be my main concern; autofocus speed would not be a concern based on what I photograph; camera handling would be important; service turnaround time would be a concern. Streamlining systems would be a significant advantage. Yes, platform risk would be a factor to be considered. Etc. etc.
Aren't a lot of the comments made here of the kind of typical "nay-sayers" :-)
Peter
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I'm with Bernard on the indistinguishable at A2 (16x24 inches) possibility - notably, we're both D3x users who know what that camera can really do... I make 24x36 inch prints from the D3x all the time (high detail landscape), and am extremely satisfied with the results. I'm NOT saying that the D3x is indistinguishable from a P65+ at a very large enlargement - clearly, it isn't. It might well be up to A2, and then distinguishable, but still more than good enough, up to 24x36 inches - beyond that, you want really high-res MFDB for close inspection. Since nobody has yet seen large printed output from the S2, we can't be sure, but I'm imagining "D3x class", maybe a little better, rather than "P65+ class". It will probably have a best print size of 30x45 inches, where the D3x is good to 24x36, and the really top DMF systems seem to exceed 36x48 even on high-detail subjects (the rule for the best sensors seems to be that they can print in inches roughly the sensor size in mm on very high detail subjects). Is it really worth paying 3 times as much for the body and lenses, and having a choice of 4 lenses instead of 20+ (I know Nikon claims 60ish lenses, but many of those don't belong on a D3x) for a similar type of camera that only prints a little bigger? The full-fledged MF systems offer accessories (HTS adapter) and/or flexibility (mounting a Phase back on a view camera) that DSLRs, including the S2, can't match, and they do it with entry prices much less than the S2. DSLRs offer tilt/shift lenses to gain some of the flexibility of the HTS or view camera mounting, and Leica doesn't have those, either
What makes Leica's pricing especially galling is that the S2 is NOT extremely high resolution! It's a modest jump in resolution and sensor size over the D3x, and significantly less of both compared to most MF being sold today (apart from entry-level models at half its price, which have modestly larger sensors than the S2 at slightly less resolution). If it were a 50+MP camera with a sensor 36x48mm or larger, the pricing might be justifiable as a competitor for the few applications that really need that. Some photographers would say "I'll give up shift capability for a camera that handles like a 35mm, but I still want above-D3x resolution". The S2 as it exists needs to be priced between the most expensive DSLRs and the bottom end of DMF (distinctly undercutting Hasselblad's more flexible $18000 package) to be competitive.
Otherwise, Leica's staking their entire premium on the assertion that their lenses are noticeably better at optimum apertures than either the very best Nikkors OR the Fujiblad lenses, AND that ALL of these lenses aren't diffraction-limited at most apertures anyway (I suspect that most really good lenses, including a bunch of top Nikkors, all the Leica lenses and most or all of the Fujiblad lenses are actually better than either the sensors or the diffraction limit). Of course, you COULD put a $200 Sigma 28-300 zoom lens on a D3x, and the shutter would fire, but that's not what the camera was made for, any more than drilling a pinhole in a body cap (comparable in cost to that cheap Sigma zoom) is the recommended lens for the S2.
Another problem that people may not have caught is that, while the S2 is the size of a D700 or a 5DII, it's as heavy as a D3x (heavier, depending on the lens - the Leica 70mm prime is almost as heavy as the 24-70 f2.8 Nikkor). The D3x has the vertical grip that also provides additional support while holding it horizontally. I've never tried holding a camera that heavy with as little to grip as the S2 offers - all DSLRs that heavy are dual-grip, and MF offers very secure side pistol grips. I'd imagine that the S2 would be tiring to hold.
-Dan
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Forgive the long post, I rarely comment in this forum, frankly I don't have the time or energy to devote to it, plus - it's crystal clear that the majority here are entrenched enough in their beliefs… so it's mostly about the witty banter, not so much about outcome., fair enough.
Perhaps though it's possible to expand a view or two, by sharing personal experience, and to point out the obvious, that our immediate circle does not necessarily reflect the reality of the whole spectrum.
Perhaps also my comments can encourage some of you to aspire to doing things knowing there is still a great career to be had in photography despite economic turbulence and the continually-lowered barriers to entry making everyone think they are/can be a true photographer.
I'm amazed at the degree of cynicism here and, well a lot of presumptive comments about; the S2 system, Leica's 'certain' demise, the (tired) argument of DSLR vs MFDB, a working pros needs vs luxury, etc… Reminds me of a recent flight to Europe, my (enlightened) client insisted I fly executive class, getting settled in my 'pod' one of the passengers passed-by on her way to her seat at the rear of the aircraft, she tossed me a comment 'it doesn't look comfortable I wouldn't want it anyway'.
I hold the view that any company or individual adding to or developing our industry by way of new product, evolving technology, varied tools - whatever you want to call it, these individuals and companies should be applauded because they enrich photography and making images, something we all love. This absolutely includes boutique companies such as Leica who have something important to offer.
I have no way of knowing how many here are making some, or all of their modest/exceptional living at photography, I am fortunate to be in the latter group and I am not a vanity photographer. A large number of posters write like they are not making their main income shooting, or if they are, I interpret an 'amateur' mindset when it comes to equipment decisions - irrespective of the S2 system or not; 'If it's good enough for me and within my budget it should be good enough for everyone', or 'I defy you to tell the difference in image quality at A4 size between mine and yours…" honestly these kind of comments are tiresome and just make the writer look limited, there's a whole other world of photography clients/standards, etc, out there, and it's bigger and more demanding then you think, plenty of us do purchase best of breed equipment and pay accordingly because for our needs it is essential and we are competing with others who strive for the best possible product, uncompromisingly.
In my business every significant purchase is considered from both a 'creative', and a ROI perspective considering a 1, 2 and 3 year timeline wherever appropriate. Equipment is billed to the client on an as-needed basis.
In my situation, I shoot a mixture of fashion and portraits plus some other things for advertising, and editorial, across North America and a bit in Europe. I shoot over 100 days a year on assignments in my studio and on location, any pro at my level in the pyramid will tell you that is a busy year considering all the other parts such as bidding, pre-pro, post, travel, meetings, promotion, etc that go along with it.
My cameras and lights are my tools, I have a lot of tools, they are the best I can find to make my product, because they enable the process to create what clients respond to in my portfolio, in ads, in awards and on my website - and this gives me work, a lot of work. It might be interesting to note this is my best year in business - ever. I have built my career on the belief that creative and technical excellence, differentiation, client experience and hard work are uppermost, within a solid and disciplined business framework. Given this the S2 Leica promise is a likely candidate for inclusion in my work.
Given my style of shooting and my desire to have the best possible tools to achieve my results, (currently) I use several systems but (mostly) work with a Contax 645 for the zeiss glass, with a P45+, I am constantly testing other systems and formats, to date nothing has proven better for my needs. Yes I have shot and scrutinized the best and most current MFDB's and DSLRs which sometimes make sense but they are not the complete solution for me. DSLR speed and iso are undeniably better, as is cost, however they do not 'see' the same as larger glass - the aesthetic is spatially different and anyone who does not know this or care, well they are happy in their ignorance. In my experience the 14 bit file simply cannot withstand the same stress in heavy post, and when cropped the files are not large and/or versatile enough for my Art Directors.
Within the next year I will be changing from the P45+ partly because it will run out of extended warranty, but more importantly the aging of the technology (camera) combined with my writedown on the equipment will encourage this from a business perspective. For a busy shooter at my level in the pyramid - and just open LeBook, Workbook, AtEdge, etc and you will begin to see the tip of the iceberg, albeit there are a myriad of formats among my group, but a 60K system written down over three years is 20K a year plus or minus financing, this represents less then 3-5% of the gross revenue for anyone in said pyramid and is not an unreasonable expense in my view.
In fact for such a key component of the business (presuming said piece is as good or better then my current system) it is a bargain from a business analysis perspective, in my particular case I will get a fresh warranty, new technology, faster flash sync, faster autofocus, etc.
It remains to be seen whether the S2 will have enough of the features and advancements to warrant inclusion in my lineup, but I will test it and if the tools are there I will buy it without a second thought, many others will do the same I can assure you.
Dermot Cleary
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Sorry for not being clear. I was not being complimentary about the quality of many of the photographs I have seen taken with P65s, either on a technical or artistic level. My point is that there are apparently many photographers out there willing to pay $40,000 for a camera system that cannot in any rational way be justified by "need". They buy them because they can afford them, and they are the top of the heap in megapixels.
BTW, if the S2 had a 60mp chip, I think the S2 would be viewed as much better value than the 37.5mp model Leica is now selling for $23,000, even if it cost $10,000 more. Again, look at the P65 price and the price of the forthcoming Hasselblad 60mp H3D. No one seems to be freaking over those prices.
I wonder how many of those buying the P65+ are pro photographers (how many pro's need that level of resolution) and how many are 'professional rich enthusiasts' like the owner of this site?
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Within the next year I will be changing from the P45+ partly because it will run out of extended warranty, but more importantly the aging of the technology (camera) combined with my writedown on the equipment will encourage this from a business perspective. For a busy shooter at my level in the pyramid - and just open LeBook, Workbook, AtEdge, etc and you will begin to see the tip of the iceberg, albeit there are a myriad of formats among my group, but a 60K system written down over three years is 20K a year plus or minus financing, this represents less then 3-5% of the gross revenue for anyone in said pyramid and is not an unreasonable expense in my view.
I'm a finance guy by trade, so this is an interesting exercise for me: Taking the $20k write-down per year which represents 3% of annual revenue yields $667k. I don't know what the margins in the business are, but assuming a generous 20% that results in gross income of $133k. Now, the average salary of a US-based photographer is $54k (http://swz.salary.com/salarywizard/layouthtmls/swzl_compresult_national_CM02000016.html). Without doing a normal distribution, I guesstimate it puts "your level" safely in the top 1% income bracket of photographers; according to the same site top 10 percentile is a mere $71k. That's a pretty sobering view for those who dream of being a pro: you need to be in top 10% to make just $71k... There's only so many marco glavianos and joe mcnallies out there...
I'm one of those amateurs who can't justify plunking down a good car's worth of money on a hobby, no matter how serious it is. Having said that, I'd buy an S2 over P65+ or a H3D in a heartbeat - given that it delivers 90% of what the marketing hype claims. I've read too many stories about the utter lack of ergonomics and innovation of MFDBs, as well as their inherent limitations which would limit their utility for me.
S2 is a bold step in finally distancing cameras from legacy systems, and if they can avoid the pedestrian bumbling that was the M8 on release I'm sure it will find its niche. Whether that niche is large enough to recoop the millions in R&D within investor-approved timelines is another question. As much as most people praise Nikon and especially Canon for producing innovative products, it is only Leica and Red who truly do so now or in the near future.
PS. Impressive (but slow to load) portfolio; especially the cargo ship photo is stunning. But how on earth did you get model releases for the campaign against child sexual exploitation photos?
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Thanks for taking the time to view my website, I'd appreciate knowing what type of internet and computer speed you are using, I have had wildly differing load-times reported but in our testing, a recent-model computer with high-speed 'lite' typically loads in 30 seconds or less.
The campaign you refer to was done with DDB, a large and respected agency, our intent, the concept was completely transparent at the time of casting, all Talent candidates were aware of the potential stigma of participation, I suppose they felt it worthwhile and important enough to participate, as did I.
Any financial discussion around (presumed/extrapolated) income especially when quoting your source - which as a finance guy, you know the difference between median and average of 54K, the high was 100K in your source. We both know these types of numbers can be quite skewed, often downwards, case in point - the average annual U.S. salary (I am based in Canada BTW) in 2002 was 37K (Wiki). If you believe that number then photographers made between 50-100% more than the national average.
As to my own situation I would consider another career if I made anywhere near the income you suggest. The other part of it is, and again I mention it to evidence that the math is not so simplistic, but I already own more camera equipment (written down tax-wise but still valuable) on the resale market then the projected S2 system is priced at, so my outlay is going to be different then some people.
I totally appreciate the fact that as an amateur you find it nonsensical to buy such a product, my original point was to offer my personal experience as a busy professional making a business decision on a ROI within my business for an admittedly expensive yet affordable tool.
Otherwise, you and I are completely aligned with respect to excitement over the S2 if it can deliver most of it's promise.
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Thanks for taking the time to view my website, I'd appreciate knowing what type of internet and computer speed you are using, I have had wildly differing load-times reported but in our testing, a recent-model computer with high-speed 'lite' typically loads in 30 seconds or less.
30 seconds to load a site is about 27 seconds too slow for most people - I would have closed the window if I didn't see promising-looking thumbnails That's the main problem with Flash - nice-looking sites but they turn a lot of people away. I presume your target audience is ADs, they're probably used to slowness of Flash sites since most commercial photogs seem to use Flash. I have 4 meg broadband which is mid-level speed.
I wasn't disputing your (or anyone else's) justification for investing such large amounts on gear - it merely doesn't make sense to me, but can definitely see it making perfect sense for a lot of pros. Especially the ability to write the tax off is a huge incentive.
Just as a sidenote, ROI is a pretty blunt tool for evaluating an investment decision, mainly because it doesn't take opportunity cost into account. IOW, whether investing 80-120k on a complete two-body S2 system with unproven tech generates higher income than spending that 80-120k on lighting, tech guy, marketing and/or new studio.
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I don't sell to most people, if you hold the perception that 30 seconds is 'too long' for a website to load, that is your prerogative, but I encourage you yo be be very careful about any decision which may homogenize your work or your presentatiion, all of the best photographers recognize that what a client pays you for is your aesthetic - which does not end at the photograph, it extends into every aspect of your presentation. I have gotten photography assignments because clients have liked my site design.
I hold the view that as a visual artist it is essential to differentiate, and to some extent to control the viewing experience, I choose to show large images and within the skin of a preloaded flash environment and my work extends across several genres not commonly seen with a single photographer, my clients are Art Directors with high speed connections and large monitors, I am told they and their Art Buyers are happy to wait, beyond this other opinions are really inconsequential, in many cases I am told it loads in 10 seconds or less, and yes the thumbnails are to suggest what waits. I also have an iPhone version which is much more compact.
As a personal view, I feel a photographer has somewhat 'given up' when they drop their image into a 'Livebooks' type site or the like, especially since we have so few available ways to acceptably communicate with the potential client, make the most of every aspect.
ROI was meant in only the most broad sense, don't have the inclination to laboriously explain every nuance, my point was, I think made.
DC
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Slightly off-topic, but several people have mentioned tax write-offs for expensive equipment. Understand, however, that in the US, at any rate, in the highest-taxed states, that something like 55% of the cost of a new camera still comes out of the photographer's pocket, if that photographer is in the highest tax bracket. If the photographer is making the average amount quoted above, his tax rate would be 25% or so (possibly lower, depending on other factors), so at least 75% of the cost would come out of his pocket. You deduct the cost from income, not from computed taxes. So you wind up paying what would otherwise be a good chunk of after-tax money for the camera. If you need it badly enough, you do it, but it's not "free," as some people seem to think.
JC
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Judging by what gets posted here by professional shooters - advertising photography is now very much a fusion between original capture and post shot manipulation. The 'look' is everything and the 'look' is definitely becoming more and more graphic. For such purposes - I don't think anyone needs more than a DSLR and a fast FTP service to a post shot retouching service. However - everyone loves new toys and most ( it seems) despise new toys that are too expensive. The S2 is more interesting than anything out there being made by anyone else - at the moment - except for RED. Leica seem to be targeting a modest 1-2000 unit sales target per annum - this is achievable on the basis of ergonomic differentiation alone. Other makers can try and flog a dead horse by continuing with more megapixels and higher ISO -which merely underlines MFD limitations compared to 35mm DSLR rather than reinforce differences.
IF Leica actually prove this niche exists - they may actually create a new market for Canon which needs a new niche to move up into as their FF DSLR is running out of megapixel space. In the meantime - I look forward to true differentiation from RED via their 645/617 chips and video/still fusion.
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I have used both MF and the Canikons. MF sufers hugely in practice from ISO and focus problems and missing lenses eg. shift.
Leica could have an interestng product if they had a decent fast sensor ; however they might find it more profitable to make a decent Olympus Pen F / M series hybrid with Leica lenses and a Panasonic sensor and focus system rather than waste their lens designers time on MF.
Edmund
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Leica is likely making good profit selling a boat load of lenses for point and shoot and even cellphones now.
they need a flagship product that keep their status high.
they do not necessarily need to to great profits selling the S2, which is probably going to be the best MF solution for 80% of MF photography applications, for a while.
they priced it considering the competition. they are always been much more expensive than the competition. i do not see anything new there.
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I see somthing new here:
Many years ago lots of pros had Leicas. Leica Ms were what the company made money on, which is why they sold them.
I learnt photography on a beaten-up Leica. Many here did the same, I'd bet. Those times are now over. Flagship products - Ha!
I have gone through 4 M8 bodies - 3 had various failures. That's new too. There was a time when what came out of the Leica factory actually worked, without a necessity for a "platinum service" plan.
Edmund
Leica is likely making good profit selling a boat load of lenses for point and shoot and even cellphones now.
they need a flagship product that keep their status high.
they do not necessarily need to to great profits selling the S2, which is probably going to be the best MF solution for 80% of MF photography applications, for a while.
they priced it considering the competition. they are always been much more expensive than the competition. i do not see anything new there.
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Sorry for my lack of input and involvement in this thread since posting prices in the wee hours of Thrusday morning. The reasons for my absence are twofold:
1) I have been extremely busy during the last few days. I spent all of Thursday, Friday, and Saturday touching base with my S2 pre-order list. I just haven't had the time to read everything or post. In fact, I've only been able to get through 2/3rds of my list.
2) Even if I did have the time, many are so entrenched in their viewpoints that little or nothing I might have said would really matter. My input would be conveniently dismissed as "marketing hype" or "bs" or whatever.
That being said, I'm sure some here are interested to know how my conversations over the last few days have gone. Maybe I live in a bubble, but my reality has not coincided with what is happening online. Of all my pre-orders, no one was insulted, offended, shocked, etc. by the S2 pricing. In fact, no one backed out or cancelled due to price. All those that were interested in getting an S2, are still excited to get one in October. There are a couple who will wait for the 30-90 to be available. Everyone wants to see final specs (within a week or two) and see real images, just as I do. But, the price was expected. Part of this was due to my comminicating a realistic price for last 6-9 months in all my conversations. I told anyone who asked that the price would be about $20K for the body and about $4-6K for the lenses. I've seen the Euro go from about $1.25 to the current $1.43. Leica told me that at anything above $1.35, they'd have to adjust pricing. So, the 10-15% higher price for the body was somewhat expected.
Leica has clearly stated that fashion, beauty, advertising, and commercial are the main target markets, as well as advanced amateurs who want the best balance of ease, handling, and image quailty. In reviewing my list, I'd say that Leica has so far done a good job, as I have representation from all of these specialties, as well as high-end professional landscape photographers (those shooting for coffee-table books and grand-format commercial prints sold through galleries and/or corporate decorators).
There appears to be some confusion over the warranty and add-on service packages. To clarify, the body and lenses come with a standard 12-month warranty (same as a Phase Classic warranty or standard Hasselblad warranty). The service packages are optional add-ons just like Hassy's Camera Care Plan or Phase's Value Added Warranty, which also cost several thousand $$.
The Premium Service Package includes:
- Extra year of transferable warranty
- Camera swap service during the first three months (no repairs, just a new camera the next day)
- Special phone hotline with dedicated S2 specialist
- guaranteed spare parts availibility for 6 years
- 30% discount on non-warranty repairs (ex. dropping camera)
The Platinum Service Package includes:
(same as above), plus...
- free of charge maintenance including one shutter and/or central shutter replacement (doesn't have to be broken)
- free of charge loaner service during repairs
Keep in mind, also, that customers who purchase from me can get loaners or rentals from me at no charge regardless of service level, and can reach me 24/7 for help and support. That is just being a good dealer, rather than a box mover. I'd say that the Premium package is plenty for most individual shooters. The Platinum is geared more towards rental studios and busy top-tier professionals. $495 for lenses and $1,495 for the body isn't really that unreasonable for the Premium option.
Yes, Lightroom will come bundled with the camera. There will also be tethering software that can control all functions of the camera, including camera focus, all settings, etc. The application doesn't do RAW conversion, but rather controls the camera and deposits images in whatever folder you choose. Hot-folder-capable applications like LR, Aperture, or even C1 can be used - this is the user's choice.
As to why Leica didn't bundle the 70mm with the camera, you might be interested to learn that only about 50% of my customers chose to order the 70mm with the camera. The fact is that everyone is different. How would you feel about being required to buy an M8.2 with a 35mm Summicron? Sure, a certain percentage would like it (like me), but most would prefer to pick their own lens package. Same with the S2.
Regarding switching from other systems, I have taken trade-ins on two H3DII-39s, one H3DII-31, one H3DII-50, a D3x, and many other assorted items. Other customers have already sold H3DII-39 systems, at least one P45+, and Canon/Nikon systems to fund the S2. So, obviously, for these folks, there is enough reason to switch platforms.
The reality is that we will see final specs within the next week or two and images before camera availibility. Of course, no one wants to drop $30K on a system without seeing images. But, most know what to expect:
- Lenses without compromise that can be shot at any aperture (not just f/11)
- The smallest, lightest, fastest MF system and the only one with weather sealing in a fully modern body
- 1/500th of a sec flash sync with CS lenses and 1/400th of a sec max shutter with FP shutter (easy as flipping a switch)
- Large, bright, hi-res LCD
- Accurate AF (that doesn't require a 3x loupe)
- Minimal mirror slap
If you've handled the S2 for any amount of time and have experience with other MF systems, you can immediately tell a difference. Since switching to SSDs in my new laptop, I can't ever imaging going back to a platter-based HDD. It would be painful. Likewise, I think that once photographers start using the S2 they will have a very difficult time going back to other systems. Maybe they get the job done, but not as smoothly and seamlessly as they might with the S2.
As some here have said, if the IQ is there (in addition to the ergos), the camera will indeed sell. And, sell very well at that. Leica's imminent demise is grossly overstated.
I am not trying to "sell" you guys on the S2. I honestly think that the camera has done a great job of selling itself already. It is not for everyone, just as a $40K P65+ isn't for everyone, or an $11K Profoto Pro-8a power pack, or an $11K Profoto 10' Para Umbrella, etc. I know that many would like to have a chance to use the S2, and would like the price to be under $15K. I'd like a Porsche Cayman S to be the same price as an Accord, but I doubt going on a Porsche forum and convincing everyone there that the Cayman should sell for $25K is going to change anything. A Porsche is a Porsche and priced as such. Likewise, the S2 offers a certain value proposition to photographers and is also priced accordingly.
David
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double post ... see below.
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Of course, no one wants to drop $30K on a system without seeing images.
Either I can't run a Calculator, or you have a very interesting definition of a "system" for a professional photographer.
One lens, one body, and maybe a warranty? Is that all it takes?
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Regarding switching from other systems, I have taken trade-ins on two H3DII-39s, one H3DII-31, one H3DII-50, a D3x, and many other assorted items. Other customers have already sold H3DII-39 systems, at least one P45+, and Canon/Nikon systems to fund the S2. So, obviously, for these folks, there is enough reason to switch platforms.
The "reason enough" here is the red dot. they didn't handle the camera, couldn't test the entire workflow, didn't see images... however they are dropping their gear for something they don't know... other than it is Leica. LEICA.
Well, if the Leica myth is still strong enough maybe the camera will be a successor... in these target groups. And why not. Would be a pity to lose the next traditional camera maker (though I think this will be Leica's fate).
- Accurate AF (that doesn't require a 3x loupe)
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david,
believe it or not but i will not buy the s2 because a lack of money but because a lack of need for me.
so even if you would present it to me i would not see to use it. believe it or not.
and i write because i started as edmund with a m4p shooting and used many years a r8 for details aside 4x5".
i am a bit sad thinking that the s2 move could be a big mistake for leica and probably the last one,
i would like to see leica longer in this business. maybe i am wrong seeing so dark. we will see it soon.
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so even if you would present it to me i would not see to use it. believe it or not.
of course you wouldn't. It's a DSLR. Maybe the best DSLR ever made... the super DSLR.
With super few features (starting with the lack of Live View...)
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of course you wouldn't. It's a DSLR. Maybe the best DSLR ever made... the super DSLR.
With super few features (starting with the lack of Live View...)
Oh boy.
I'm getting back in the sticker business, heck I'll even become a camera maker.
I'll buy a bunch of Canon 1ds3's and putty up the Canon logo, re-stamp the word Leicas (notice I made it plural to avoid trademark problems) and make the Red dot kind of orange.
I'll sell those Canons for $15,000 and call it the Porsche Cayman of cameras but (now here's the big one), my new Leicas will have have live view, multipoint autofocus, high iso, a dozen lenses and software that tethers without a kludged up workaround for photographers that demand only the VERY best.
My new Titanium Service will give the users a new Leicas FivesDeesToos that also shoots video, just for $6,000.
Now all semi kidding aside, let's be honest about this. If the price wasn't an issue, pdn wouldn't have that screwy press release with the smiley guy justifying the price.
Actually I don't think the price is that bad for a medium format camera, I just think the whole thought of 50 grand for a stills only system doesn't make sense today.
The people at RED (the new red dot that gets attention) are probably working 20 hour days and buying up empty warehouses to store the boat loads of money they know that is coming their way.
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alright, it took me some time to register to finally put in my opinion...maybe I am getting something wrong, but I don't feel that the S2 is super expensive, at least for central Europe...a new H3DII39 cost about 17000 € without tax, the S2 will cost around 18000 inkl. tax...thats 15k...almost the price of the H3DII31...the lenses are def. expensive, but rather have the S2 lenses, which are rugged and solid than Hasselblad Fuji lenses which feel like "crap" compared to old hasselblad lenses...also the argument, that other systems are flexible doesn't count for me...as far as I know, you need to get a new body with each Hasselblad back, as there are some small changes with every back...and I just don't use large format cams, where I would like to snap a digital back on...
PhaseOne and the Phase/Mamiya cam, just isn't a option, due the lack of central shutter lenses... and for me I am only using 2 lenses at the moment...24-70mm from canon and the 135mm (all the others are just in the camera bag all the time)...so I wouldn't need too many lenses...and lenses are a good investment, as those life most times longer than the back...and I would rather invest in solid lenses, than in Hasselblad or Phamiya lenses...
if I would get a DMF System right now it would be Hasselblad or Leica...but on the other hand I really don't like Phocus and I love LR, which is awesome that Leica is working together with Adobe...PhaseOne on the other hand got a really good software solution...but there isn't just a cam outthere I would like to snap a back on...
don't know at the moment I am kind of happy with my Canon System, but I wanna buy a DMF next year or so...the only thing I don't like at Canon is the 3:2 format, which is the same on the S2 again...but we'll see what Canon gonna bring out in the next time...for me 37MP are really fine, more MP just doesn't make sense all the time...
but I also think, that some photographers need to use DMF as it is a certain standard like it is in the advertising industry...and those photographers I know use DMF kind of often, so I cannot really sign the "DMF propably gonna die in the next years" comment...
alright, sorry for this little confusing comment and wanna know what you guys think about it...
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Either I can't run a Calculator, or you have a very interesting definition for a "system" for a professional photographer.
One lens, one body, and maybe a warranty? Is that all it takes?
Two bodies, at least three/four lenses. Plus warranty, how much does that little lot come to then ?
Anybody embarking on a shoot without backups will be taking one hell of a risk. Now what can I sell........... maybe the wife.
Pete
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but I also think, that some photographers need to use DMF as it is a certain standard like it is in the advertising industry...and those photographers I know use DMF kind of often, so I cannot really sign the "DMF propably gonna die in the next years" comment...
There is no standard of equipment for advertising. Everything is driven by expediency. The only requirements are a nice file and tetherability. For commerce: Products and architecture need a medium format back, mainly for use with view cameras. Depending on the client, beauty benefits from MF Digital, but everything else can be shot with with an old 1ds. No client cares what you shoot, not anymore. What they care about is your product and what you bring to the table, how well you partner with them. That is it.
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Leica has clearly stated that fashion, beauty, advertising, and commercial are the main target markets, as well as advanced amateurs who want the best balance of ease, handling, and image quailty. In reviewing my list, I'd say that Leica has so far done a good job, as I have representation from all of these specialties, as well as high-end professional landscape photographers (those shooting for coffee-table books and grand-format commercial prints sold through galleries and/or corporate decorators).
Yes, Lightroom will come bundled with the camera. There will also be tethering software that can control all functions of the camera, including camera focus, all settings, etc. The application doesn't do RAW conversion, but rather controls the camera and deposits images in whatever folder you choose. Hot-folder-capable applications like LR, Aperture, or even C1 can be used - this is the user's choice.
Regarding switching from other systems, I have taken trade-ins on two H3DII-39s, one H3DII-31, one H3DII-50, a D3x, and many other assorted items. Other customers have already sold H3DII-39 systems, at least one P45+, and Canon/Nikon systems to fund the S2. So, obviously, for these folks, there is enough reason to switch platforms.
David, has any of these people questioned you regarding tethered workflow functions and performance, such as press-to-preview time, buffer performance, overlay/ layout/ grid facility and system requirements (PC/ Mac/ USB/ FW etc.) or are they eager enough to throw their proven+working solutions without caring about what the replacement is like?
The reality is that we will see final specs within the next week or two and images before camera availibility. Of course, no one wants to drop $30K on a system without seeing images. But, most know what to expect:
- Lenses without compromise that can be shot at any aperture (not just f/11)
- The smallest, lightest, fastest MF system and the only one with weather sealing in a fully modern body
- 1/500th of a sec flash sync with CS lenses and 1/400th of a sec max shutter with FP shutter (easy as flipping a switch)
- Large, bright, hi-res LCD
- Accurate AF (that doesn't require a 3x loupe)
- Minimal mirror slap
- I agree with gwhitf on the definition of a "system" - I know very few people who buy a new MF camera with less than 2-3 lenses. Let's not forget that lenses for current MF cameras can be found 2nd hand and in many places are available in rental.
- Lightest? Has anyone actually weighed a working production unit with 3 lenses and compared it to an equivalent Mamiya AFDII/ III?
- Any reason why the CS lenses don't go beyond 1/500, knowing that the shutters are smaller than those made for other 645/ 6X6 cameras?
- Good LCD is useless if the preview shown on it is not good. I am not saying the one on the S2 is not good but it's not proven
- AF performance: again this will have to be tested against the H system
- Mirror slap: needs to be proven in files...
As I represent no one but myself here, I am just questioning the real target market for this new system. Time will tell I guess.
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As I represent no one but myself here, I am just questioning the real target market for this new system. Time will tell I guess.
People w/o a workflow, people who only need one body because they don't shoot much, people who demand "The Best", people with $30k to burn even in hard times. Safari hats, Billingham bags, (not ironic) moustaches.
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for my part, I rather have a different system with me as backup...what happens, when somethings happens to the photocase...if some lenses are destroyed, what does a second body helps...a 5DII with 2 lenses will resecue almost any job...
and for I can tell you from my expierence, that art directors care which system you are using...customers also do...not often, but from time to time...
the extra service is a joke if you ask me...and I wouldn't by 2 S2 bodies...don't know what for...just gonna keep my canon system as backup...
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for my part, I rather have a different system with me as backup...what happens, when somethings happens to the photocase...if some lenses are destroyed, what does a second body helps...a 5DII with 2 lenses will resecue almost any job...
and for I can tell you from my expierence, that art directors care which system you are using...customers also do...not often, but from time to time...
the extra service is a joke if you ask me...and I wouldn't by 2 S2 bodies...don't know what for...just gonna keep my canon system as backup...
Judging by your post, if the Art Director truly cares what camera you're shooting, and you think that there's a real chance that an elephant is going to stomp on your camera bag, thus crushing the first set of Leica lenses, then what you need is actually two Leica s2 bodies, and two sets of Leica lenses. Because, God forbid that Mr Giant Purchase Order Art Director is going to see you shooting the Canon camera.
Come on into my Leasing Office, and let's sit down and figure this one up. Can I get you a cup of coffee, (or a reacharound)? I think you're doing the right thing to stick with the Leica brand, because appearance is important, especially nowadays in this current economy. Now where did I place my little Calculator? Gosh, we have a little problem here -- my Calculator only goes to five digits, and given that you need two sets of everything, that now puts us over the $100,000 mark, and we're into six digits. Let me run into my Sales Manager's office -- he's got the big Calculator. I'm not sure what you still owe on that Miami condo, but we're running a Promotion now, (until the camera actually ships): An even swap, title for title, between the system you want (read: need), and that beachfront condo on Collins Avenue.
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Judging by your post, if the Art Director truly cares what camera you're shooting, and you think that there's a real chance that an elephant is going to stomp on your camera bag, thus crushing the first set of Leica lenses, then what you need is actually two Leica s2 bodies, and two sets of Leica lenses. Because, God forbid that Mr Giant Purchase Order Art Director is going to see you shooting the Canon camera.
Come on into my Leasing Office, and let's sit down and figure this one up. Can I get you a cup of coffee, (or a reacharound)? I think you're doing the right thing to stick with the Leica brand, because appearance is important, especially nowadays in this current economy. Now where did I place my little Calculator? Gosh, we have a little problem here -- my Calculator only goes to five digits, and given that you need two sets of everything, that now puts us over the $100,000 mark, and we're into six digits. Let me run into my Sales Manager's office -- he's got the big Calculator. I'm not sure what you still owe on that Miami condo, but we're running a Promotion now, (until the camera actually ships): An even swap, title for title, between the system you want (read: need), and that beachfront condo on Collins Avenue.
maybe you got me wrong...not in the position to buy a system like that right now and neither would I buy a system like that right now...just saying that the S2 isn't as expensive as everyone is saying (at least from my point of view)...
and about the AD stuff...just telling you what I have seen on shootings where I was assisting (jup, still a young guy)...sometimes MP just counts, that is why you need DMF and this is why you cannot shoot with a Canon...you won't need a 60MP Back for a small little flyer...but for bigger stuff 37MP or 39MP does matter...and I don't care what everyone is saying about Leica yada yada...just asking why Leica is so expensive from your point of view compared to other systems...at least here in Germany it doesn't sound that bad (Euro - USD conversion definitely make it worse for US customers)...
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David, has any of these people questioned you regarding tethered workflow functions and performance, such as press-to-preview time, buffer performance, overlay/ layout/ grid facility and system requirements (PC/ Mac/ USB/ FW etc.) or are they eager enough to throw their proven+working solutions without caring about what the replacement is like?
Of course. Anyone considering a purchase of this amount is going to want as much information as they can get to make an informed decision. Some of my customers are switching for the very reason that they can't stand the workflow through Phocus and have dreamed about being able to go straight into CS4 or LR. Many photographers are already familiar with LR workflow and appreciate its digital asset management tools. The nature of the tethering solution from Leica is such that for photographers who want to use C1, they can. Open DNG standard (which C1 supports) with non-proprietary tethering s/w makes this possible. If Phocus supports DNG and hot folders, they could use that as well. Remember that no DAC or LCC corrections are necessary, so the user has ultimate choice for his or her preferred workflow.
Detailed tech specs will be available in less than two weeks, and I'm sure we'll get more tethering specific info at that time as well.
For some, tethering is just not part of their needs. For them, the S2 represents a freedom to go outside and be portable. For one of my customers, he will be taking the S2 on a three month trek through the Alaskan wilderness for his next book project. A traditional MFD solution just wouldn't work in this environment. Many others shooting on location will just be using an untethered workflow, as well, similiar to the way one would work with a D3x or 1DsIII.
- I agree with gwhitf on the definition of a "system" - I know very few people who buy a new MF camera with less than 2-3 lenses. Let's not forget that lenses for current MF cameras can be found 2nd hand and in many places are available in rental.
Of course, I agree to the definition of a system as well. My point was to illustrate that decisions at this level are serious ones. A camera with all 4 lenses would be $45,600. Some on my list only need two, some will get three, and a few are looking at all four and/or future lenses. Everyone's needs are different. A photographer I spoke to yesterday explained that he would only need a 30-90 for all of the work he does and would be replacing his existing MFD system. An architectural photographer I spoke to only needs the 35 to start, with the 24 later on. I've also spoken to some of the rental studios here in Miami and there is interest in the system. So, you'll probably be able to find an extra lens or backup body at rental, if needed.
- Lightest? Has anyone actually weighed a working production unit with 3 lenses and compared it to an equivalent Mamiya AFDII/ III?
I've weighed an H3DII at 3.8lbs without a lens. The S2 is 2.7lbs. H lenses and S lenses are very similiar in weight. The Mamiya is a bit on the heavy side due to still using AA batteries to power the camera.
- Any reason why the CS lenses don't go beyond 1/500, knowing that the shutters are smaller than those made for other 645/ 6X6 cameras?
The CS lenes don't go beyond 1/500th becuase Leica is able to achieve this speed at all apertures. In other words, the shutter would be capable of syncing faster at certain apertures, but is being limited so that 1/500th is consistent across the entire range. This is not how Hasselblad rates their sync speed. Instead, they use True Exposure in which "extremely fast exposures are compensated for with a marginal adjustment to the aperture, in order to keep the generated exposure independent of aperture setting. Only the fastest shutter speed combined with the smallest aperture setting could result in slightly flawed exposures, but fortunately this is a combination that rarely occurs." (taken from Hasselblad white paper on leaf shutters in HC lenses) 1/800th sounds better for marketing purposes, but for me, I'd rather know that the shutter speed and aperture I select won't be changed by the camera.
- Good LCD is useless if the preview shown on it is not good. I am not saying the one on the S2 is not good but it's not proven
The preview is very good. Playback and zoom to 100% are both instaneous, with no hourglass, pixelization, etc. The screen is 460K pixels(same res as iPhone screen), features image brightness adjustment, backlight intensity (discreet adjustments), and an ambient light sensor. The camera is capable of on-the-fly JPG rendering, so on-screen previews are fully rendered at 100%.
- AF performance: again this will have to be tested against the H system
Agree about the AF performance. All initial accounts and my personal experience say that it should be as good or better than the H3, and certainly much faster than pin-driven, motorless lens from Mamiya.
- Mirror slap: needs to be proven in files...
While the mirror slap will have to be shown in files as you suggest, anyone can immediately tell that the shutter is much better damped, faster, with less black-out, and far less vibration in the body. This will be pretty clear when people start using the S2.
As I represent no one but myself here, I am just questioning the real target market for this new system. Time will tell I guess.
Agreed. Time will tell after tech specs are provided, images are shown, comparisons are done, and photographers start using the S2.
David
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I am not trying to "sell" you guys on the S2. I honestly think that the camera has done a great job of selling itself already. It is not for everyone, just as a $40K P65+ isn't for everyone, or an $11K Profoto Pro-8a power pack, or an $11K Profoto 10' Para Umbrella, etc. I know that many would like to have a chance to use the S2, and would like the price to be under $15K. I'd like a Porsche Cayman S to be the same price as an Accord, but I doubt going on a Porsche forum and convincing everyone there that the Cayman should sell for $25K is going to change anything. A Porsche is a Porsche and priced as such. Likewise, the S2 offers a certain value proposition to photographers and is also priced accordingly.
David,
Glad to read that you have had good succes with the S2. Good for you if your customers understand the value for them in ways that make the price premium a non issue, it speaks heaps about your abilities as a VAR I would think.
Now, as far as your car analogy goes, the gap in performance between a S2 and D3x is probably much smaller than what you can find between an Accord and a Porsche... yet the price ratio is about the same. I will rent a S2 here in Tokyo when it becomes availalbe to try it for real world landscape applications but I really don't see how the S2 lenses could be significantly superior to the Zeiss 100mm f2.0 I have been using on 90% of my landscape images through stitching... not to mention wide where Leica is unlikely to be able to even reach the level of quality defined by Nikon with their 14-24 f2.8.
Finally, as far as image quality goes, LR being made available as a converter is not such a good news. Although the workflow is great, it lags significantly behind other tools like C1 Pro in terms of quality of conversions. Let's hope that C1 and Raw Developper support the S2 DNG well...
Cheers,
Bernard
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As I represent no one but myself here, I am just questioning the real target market for this new system. Time will tell I guess.
eh? did you get phamiya'd already?
Edmund
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The internet is full of negativity before a product is launched. I remember the naysayers when folk discovered the Olympus E-P1 wouldn't have a built-in flash or viewfinder - yet that camera is selling like hot-cakes.
Could something similar be happening here? Who makes a weather sealed, manageable, medium format digital system that I could take into the bush with me or be happy to carry for a day on my back? That I could still use for commercial shoots because the quality is right up there, the speed and focus are all up to the task and the lenses are usable wide open? As far as I can see, no-one. Lecia at least promises this with the S2 so we wait to see if it delivers before we knock it, surely? This is something different and appealing. Sure it's expensive but it's not ten times as expensive as anything else, not even the most expensive system out there.
I never shoot tethered, I only use a tripod maybe 5% of the time. I fully understand that this camera has appeal, more so than the 35mm alternatives for certain types of photographers and much more than the detachable-back dirt magnets on the market today.
OK, we don't know if the S2 will be that good in practice but, equally, we don't know it won't, so why sling off at it now? Doesn't make sense to me!
Don
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I really don't see how the S2 lenses could be significantly superior to the Zeiss 100mm f2.0 I have been using on 90% of my landscape images through stitching...
Imagine what the S2 could do using the 120mm for your stitched images
I mostly agree with you about the A2 print comparison - whilst it's possible to see differences between (in my case) the 5D2 and the P45 in an A2 print, the differences are subtle, being mostly to do with better tonality rather than raw resolution. However, above that size the differences become apparent very quickly so either you spend a great deal of time stitching or you invest in a bigger sensor.
So, it's clear that dSLRs compare very favorably with MFDBs in many circumstances, that's not in dispute here. I think there is also no dispute that the S2 will be a very fine camera, if not the best of it's class. What seems to be in dispute here is the 'value' that this camera represents - and since that depends entirely on an individual's taste, needs and circumstances I simply don't get this harping on about the price.
Leica has always been expensive, what else is new?
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I mostly agree with you about the A2 print comparison - whilst it's possible to see differences between (in my case) the 5D2 and the P45 in an A2 print, the differences are subtle, being mostly to do with better tonality rather than raw resolution. However, above that size the differences become apparent very quickly so either you spend a great deal of time stitching or you invest in a bigger sensor.
Honestly, this forum should be broken up into two Subsets:
Group 1: Guys that (think they) need repro sizes larger than 17"x22".
Group 2: Guys that need repro sizes smaller than 17"x22".
Because it has nothing to do with Sensor Size any more.
Or the cost of the camera.
Or the shape of the camera.
Or the brand of the camera.
Final Repro Size seems to be the dividing line here in the sand.
Let's be honest: What's the difference between a PhaseOne P21+ print that's that's 17"x22", versus a print from a 1ds3 or a D3x? None. (Apologies to the Europeans for not converting to metric). If you want to walk up three inches away from a 40x60 print and count the pubes on the girl standing on that third mountaintop from the left, then you belong in Group 1.
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An even swap, title for title, between the system you want (read: need), and that beachfront condo on Collins Avenue.
As an additional incentive: our office in Miami is two blocks from Collins Avenue. So you'd be welcome to rent the time-tested Phase One system (which is 80%+ of the Miami medium format rental market) in case something goes awry with the as-yet-unseen Leica tethering software.
Doug Peterson (e-mail Me) (http://mailto:doug@captureintegration.com)
__________________
Head of Technical Services, Capture Integration
Phase One, Canon, Apple, Profoto, Eizo & More
National: 877.217.9870 | Cell: 740.707.2183
Newsletter: Read Latest or Sign Up (http://www.captureintegration.com/our-company/newsletters/)
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Let's be honest: What's the difference between a PhaseOne P21+ print that's that's 17"x22", versus a print from a 1ds3 or a D3x? None. (Apologies to the Europeans for not converting to metric). If you want to walk up three inches away from a 40x60 print and count the pubes on the girl standing on that third mountaintop from the left, then you belong in Group 1.
You know as well as anyone that image quality has many many dimensions (tonal smoothness, color rendering, amount/aesthetic of noise, bokeh, 3Dness or tactileness) among which resolution is only one aspect. Very few people who evaluate both would match those cameras up. The general argument is that retouching ends up removing most of those aspects, but as a retoucher-for-hire in my spare time I know first hand that there is that much less to "correct" when you start with a medium format file.
Doug Peterson (e-mail Me) (http://mailto:doug@captureintegration.com)
__________________
Head of Technical Services, Capture Integration
Phase One, Canon, Apple, Profoto, Eizo & More
National: 877.217.9870 | Cell: 740.707.2183
Newsletter: Read Latest or Sign Up (http://www.captureintegration.com/our-company/newsletters/)
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Random thoughts from listening to the reactions so far to pricing for the S2:
1. It reminds me of the reaction to the pricing for the Nikon D3X when it was first released. I am astonished at the way so many photographers react to it as a personal affront to them. I don't get it. Will we see a similar reaction to the S2 as the real world feedback filters in?
2. Leica has invested tens of millions of dollars in R&D trying to deliver a product that leapfrogs what the existing players in medium format digital have delivered to date. I am sure that it is hugely over budget. Moreover, the pricing of the comparable systems from Phase and Hasselblad has dramatically changed since Leica started the S2 project. The H3D-39 and the P45(without any camera body) were both above $30k at that time. Leica has unfortunately missed the boat in assessing the market, but please don't act if as if Leica is some sort of arrogant and greedy predator. I am sure that Leica is not making a killing on the pricing of the S2, just trying to keep its head above water.
3. The S2 with the 70mm lens is $27.5k in the US. The Phamiya P45+ is $26k. $1,500 more for the S2. Is there anyone who does not think that the S2 body and its 70mm lens is likely worth a premium of $1,500 over the Mamiya AFD with the Mamiya 80mm lens?
4. I am not buying one, but I sure hope that the S2 succeeds. When do you think we will next see someone design and build a new from the ground up medium format camera body and lenses? What do you all expect from the next iteration of the Mamiya AFD?
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You know as well as anyone that image quality has many many dimensions (tonal smoothness, color rendering, amount/aesthetic of noise, bokeh, 3Dness or tactileness) among which resolution is only one aspect. Very few people who evaluate both would match those cameras up. The general argument is that retouching ends up removing most of those aspects, but as a retoucher-for-hire in my spare time I know first hand that there is that much less to "correct" when you start with a medium format file.
Doug,
You know I love you, but you're just dead wrong here. I've tested this thoroughly when I owned both of those cameras, and even before retouch, there wasn't a nickel's difference in them. Mirror up; tripod, with strobe -- not some halfass "handheld, shooting a sunset". Both files were super sharp and super clean.
And it's not a "general argument" about the retouch -- it's a very specific argument. Anybody who's really doing anything with these files is working them to death; either themselves, or an outside house. The file you start with, right out of the box, is a far cry from the file that you'd deliver. As long as the shadows aren't blocked and the highlights are intact, that's all you need to go to work on it, and beat it to death. And a retoucher doesn't care what he works on, just as long as the check clears.
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The bottom line is this: for the top 5% of photographers (in earnings), the price of the system is (within broad parameters) irrelevant.
MF digital files are simply better than DSLR files. How much better is the source of painfully endless debate, but they're better. They are especially better for serious post-pro, which is something that straight-on landscape guys might not do much of, but most of the photographers in the top 5% of the industry (fashion and commercial) certainly do. (Well, to be precise, their retouchers do it for them.)
There are two MF systems out there today, and both kind of suck. The lenses are S_L_O_W in every relevant respect and often not optically up-to-snuff. The cameras are slow. The user interfaces are lousy and the AF is mediocre. For Phasemiya, the battery issue alone makes it a pain to use.
SO.....we KNOW the Leica is faster in ever relevant respect (lens speed and fps). If the precision and ergonomics of that performance are good, it will be a certain winner for people who can afford these types of systems.
Leica has never aimed for the average photographer toiling away in small town America, and they aren't now.
If 1/3 of the top 5% of the industry (in earnings) buy into the S2, it will fly.
And we will all be better off for it, whether for the used systems it causes to float downstream to us, the increased innovative pressure it will place on Blad and Phasemiya, or just for the presence of a technologically richer environment.
Go Leica go...
- N.
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3. The S2 with the 70mm lens is $27.5k in the US. The Phamiya P45+ is $26k. $1,500 more for the S2. Is there anyone who does not think that the S2 body and its 70mm lens is likely worth a premium of $1,500 over the Mamiya AFD with the Mamiya 80mm lens?
I understand the most you are saying and I think you are quite right, except one thing. You can get a P45+ a lot cheaper than a S2, just talk to some dealers. Or you could even get this: H3D-50 (http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/571017-REG/Hasselblad_70380532_H3DII_50_SLR_Digital_Camera.html) (And when seriously considering buying one, you will be suprised to find out that you can get the H3D even cheaper ;-) )
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3. The S2 with the 70mm lens is $27.5k in the US. The Phamiya P45+ is $26k. $1,500 more for the S2. Is there anyone who does not think that the S2 body and its 70mm lens is likely worth a premium of $1,500 over the Mamiya AFD with the Mamiya 80mm lens?
I guess most people are reacting more to the price of the lenses, but the size of the sensor is probably also part of it. Most MF users like MF because of the look that they believe results from the size of the sensor (and lenses). The S2 is plain in the middle of FX and MF sensorsizewise and this has driven - probably irrealistic - expectations that the price would be there as well.
Besides, in terms of MF price, my personnal reference is more something like this anyway...
http://cgi.ebay.com/Hasselblad-H3D-II-50-C...id=p3286.c0.m14 (http://cgi.ebay.com/Hasselblad-H3D-II-50-Camera-H3DII-50MP-Kit-w-80mm-Lens_W0QQitemZ270411211662QQcmdZViewItemQQptZDigital_Cameras?hash=item3ef5c3a38e&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14)
Cheers,
Bernard
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Imagine what the S2 could do using the 120mm for your stitched images
I mostly agree with you about the A2 print comparison - whilst it's possible to see differences between (in my case) the 5D2 and the P45 in an A2 print, the differences are subtle, being mostly to do with better tonality rather than raw resolution. However, above that size the differences become apparent very quickly so either you spend a great deal of time stitching or you invest in a bigger sensor.
So, it's clear that dSLRs compare very favorably with MFDBs in many circumstances, that's not in dispute here. I think there is also no dispute that the S2 will be a very fine camera, if not the best of it's class. What seems to be in dispute here is the 'value' that this camera represents - and since that depends entirely on an individual's taste, needs and circumstances I simply don't get this harping on about the price.
Leica has always been expensive, what else is new?
Nick,
Agreed, I am for sure not trying to convince anyone not to purchase the S2, I am sure that it will be an amazing camera. I guess that I am just amused by these prices the same way I am amused by the prices of other luxury items I am not able to afford/not interested in like these speakers for instance... I am sure that the sound is amazing.
http://www.cabasse.com/us/range/artis/la-sphere (http://www.cabasse.com/us/range/artis/la-sphere)
This might sound provocative, but as far as I am concerned 25MP and 50MP are basically the same thing. Stitching is the only way to go significantly larger anyway. Just did a 24x52 inch print and love the ability to output above 480 DPI at this print size (a pretty difficult subject for that matter, low light levels, dynamic skies, a perfectly horizontal horizon where to check alignement quality and water...). Tones and DR do matter, but the D3x is measured to be the second best sensor in the industry, only inches behind the P65+ at one fifth the price.
(http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2425/3769041016_77cfa22762_o.jpg)
From that standpoint, the S2 and the d3x have specs that are within a few % of each other and the price gap looks like a bad joke.
The way I see things, simple frame capture today (MF, FX or APS for that matter) is to stitching what 35 mm used to be to 8x10. It is more convenient and flexible, but the image quality is one order of magnitude lower. I understand all the people that favour flexibility as it sure makes creativity easier, but for those looking for the best possible image quality a single frame from the S2 won't cut it more than a single frame from a D3x or P65+. Those who did really like the complexity of large format will not mind the complexity associated with stitching and will find the constraints to be assets in coming up with a few strong images instead of many average ones (relative to what one could possibly achieve all things being equal elsewhere).
I could for sure stitch with a S2, but why spend 3 times more for the same end result and not get access to the most useful feature of recent digital camera - live view, much fewer options lenswise and a much more narrow system? Does Leica offer a SDK enabling the automation of DoF stacking? Will RRS produce a S2 L bracket in the coming weeks? Can you find a top quality second hand 600f5.6 lenses for the S2 at 1500US$ or a stabilized lens at any price?
The real enablers of the highest possible image quality these days are not Leica, Phaseone or Hasselblad. They are the few guys doing Autopano Giga and PTgui together with the makers of high quality panoramic heads. These 10 guys or so are the most important resource in high quality photography these days. Yet, their products are priced far below 1000 US$... and they mostly just work real nice.
Obviously the above applies to landscape only.
Cheers,
Bernard
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alright, it took me some time to register to finally put in my opinion...maybe I am getting something wrong, but I don't feel that the S2 is super expensive, at least for central Europe...a new H3DII39 cost about 17000 € without tax, the S2 will cost around 18000 inkl. tax...thats 15k...almost the price of the H3DII31..
I don't know where you have seen this price in Europe , a H3DII-39 new cost 14000 euro
http://www.fotopartner.de/cgi-bin/fotopart...Vz.0.1249283534 (http://www.fotopartner.de/cgi-bin/fotopartner?HTML=show/standard.htm&VS_TAB_NAME=W_HABLA_H_DIGITAL&VS_PARENT_ID=11307662601114&VS_INDEX=12028157164619&VS_PROD_POS=10&ID=7kIqQULiE9Ro40Vz.0.1249283534)
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I don't know where you have seen this price in Europe , a H3DII-39 new cost 14000 euro
http://www.fotopartner.de/cgi-bin/fotopart...Vz.0.1249283534 (http://www.fotopartner.de/cgi-bin/fotopartner?HTML=show/standard.htm&VS_TAB_NAME=W_HABLA_H_DIGITAL&VS_PARENT_ID=11307662601114&VS_INDEX=12028157164619&VS_PROD_POS=10&ID=7kIqQULiE9Ro40Vz.0.1249283534)
incl. 19% VAT. I'd say that's a good price!
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david,
as a leica dealer it is understandable that you defend the (not even fully spec'ed) S2 to extremes (that is why we have to remove the pink filter
from most of what you say) but your defense of LR workflow goes too far. it may be ok if you want convenience but not if you need quality. and then why use an S2
at all?
obviously leica was deserted by phase and what remained for them was adobe. but the praise is out of place.
peter
Of course. Anyone considering a purchase of this amount is going to want as much information as they can get to make an informed decision. Some of my customers are switching for the very reason that they can't stand the workflow through Phocus and have dreamed about being able to go straight into CS4 or LR. Many photographers are already familiar with LR workflow and appreciate its digital asset management tools. The nature of the tethering solution from Leica is such that for photographers who want to use C1, they can. Open DNG standard (which C1 supports) with non-proprietary tethering s/w makes this possible. If Phocus supports DNG and hot folders, they could use that as well. Remember that no DAC or LCC corrections are necessary, so the user has ultimate choice for his or her preferred workflow.
Detailed tech specs will be available in less than two weeks, and I'm sure we'll get more tethering specific info at that time as well.
For some, tethering is just not part of their needs. For them, the S2 represents a freedom to go outside and be portable. For one of my customers, he will be taking the S2 on a three month trek through the Alaskan wilderness for his next book project. A traditional MFD solution just wouldn't work in this environment. Many others shooting on location will just be using an untethered workflow, as well, similiar to the way one would work with a D3x or 1DsIII.
Of course, I agree to the definition of a system as well. My point was to illustrate that decisions at this level are serious ones. A camera with all 4 lenses would be $45,600. Some on my list only need two, some will get three, and a few are looking at all four and/or future lenses. Everyone's needs are different. A photographer I spoke to yesterday explained that he would only need a 30-90 for all of the work he does and would be replacing his existing MFD system. An architectural photographer I spoke to only needs the 35 to start, with the 24 later on. I've also spoken to some of the rental studios here in Miami and there is interest in the system. So, you'll probably be able to find an extra lens or backup body at rental, if needed.
I've weighed an H3DII at 3.8lbs without a lens. The S2 is 2.7lbs. H lenses and S lenses are very similiar in weight. The Mamiya is a bit on the heavy side due to still using AA batteries to power the camera.
The CS lenes don't go beyond 1/500th becuase Leica is able to achieve this speed at all apertures. In other words, the shutter would be capable of syncing faster at certain apertures, but is being limited so that 1/500th is consistent across the entire range. This is not how Hasselblad rates their sync speed. Instead, they use True Exposure in which "extremely fast exposures are compensated for with a marginal adjustment to the aperture, in order to keep the generated exposure independent of aperture setting. Only the fastest shutter speed combined with the smallest aperture setting could result in slightly flawed exposures, but fortunately this is a combination that rarely occurs." (taken from Hasselblad white paper on leaf shutters in HC lenses) 1/800th sounds better for marketing purposes, but for me, I'd rather know that the shutter speed and aperture I select won't be changed by the camera.
The preview is very good. Playback and zoom to 100% are both instaneous, with no hourglass, pixelization, etc. The screen is 460K pixels(same res as iPhone screen), features image brightness adjustment, backlight intensity (discreet adjustments), and an ambient light sensor. The camera is capable of on-the-fly JPG rendering, so on-screen previews are fully rendered at 100%.
Agree about the AF performance. All initial accounts and my personal experience say that it should be as good or better than the H3, and certainly much faster than pin-driven, motorless lens from Mamiya.
While the mirror slap will have to be shown in files as you suggest, anyone can immediately tell that the shutter is much better damped, faster, with less black-out, and far less vibration in the body. This will be pretty clear when people start using the S2.
Agreed. Time will tell after tech specs are provided, images are shown, comparisons are done, and photographers start using the S2.
David
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For some, tethering is just not part of their needs. For them, the S2 represents a freedom to go outside and be portable. For one of my customers, he will be taking the S2 on a three month trek through the Alaskan wilderness for his next book project. A traditional MFD solution just wouldn't work in this environment. Many others shooting on location will just be using an untethered workflow, as well, similiar to the way one would work with a D3x or 1DsIII.
Anyone interested in informing this guy that you don't need 39 megapixels for a book spread? Or that a 1Ds mkIII X2 would be a far better choice of equipment than a new untried system X1? Anyone else think that there are too many rich executives to whom the economic crisis has hardly made a dent in their spending?
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Of course. Anyone considering a purchase of this amount is going to want as much information as they can get to make an informed decision. Some of my customers are switching for the very reason that they can't stand the workflow through Phocus and have dreamed about being able to go straight into CS4 or LR. Many photographers are already familiar with LR workflow and appreciate its digital asset management tools. The nature of the tethering solution from Leica is such that for photographers who want to use C1, they can. Open DNG standard (which C1 supports) with non-proprietary tethering s/w makes this possible. If Phocus supports DNG and hot folders, they could use that as well. Remember that no DAC or LCC corrections are necessary, so the user has ultimate choice for his or her preferred workflow.
Detailed tech specs will be available in less than two weeks, and I'm sure we'll get more tethering specific info at that time as well.
I doubt you will have info such as press-to-preview times in LR/ Aperture/ C1 at that time though I hope you will. Re LCC etc. I'll wait to see it in my own eyes if you don't mind.
For some, tethering is just not part of their needs. For them, the S2 represents a freedom to go outside and be portable. For one of my customers, he will be taking the S2 on a three month trek through the Alaskan wilderness for his next book project. A traditional MFD solution just wouldn't work in this environment. Many others shooting on location will just be using an untethered workflow, as well, similiar to the way one would work with a D3x or 1DsIII.
There are thousands of digital backs that live in studios, tethered to desktops/ laptops, capturing still life, people and other moving subjects. For these photographers tethered workflow is key to their work and if you want to compete with that you have to present an "as good if not better" solution.
Re portability: I'm sure there are many on this board who have taken their MFDs on such adventures and came back to proudly show their work...saying that, any new body that offers weather proofing is welcome (though the issue of sensor cleaning should not be discarded)
Of course, I agree to the definition of a system as well. My point was to illustrate that decisions at this level are serious ones. A camera with all 4 lenses would be $45,600. Some on my list only need two, some will get three, and a few are looking at all four and/or future lenses. Everyone's needs are different. A photographer I spoke to yesterday explained that he would only need a 30-90 for all of the work he does and would be replacing his existing MFD system. An architectural photographer I spoke to only needs the 35 to start, with the 24 later on. I've also spoken to some of the rental studios here in Miami and there is interest in the system. So, you'll probably be able to find an extra lens or backup body at rental, if needed.
I've weighed an H3DII at 3.8lbs without a lens. The S2 is 2.7lbs. H lenses and S lenses are very similiar in weight. The Mamiya is a bit on the heavy side due to still using AA batteries to power the camera.
The Mamiya, as a system (i.e. with some lenses) is smaller and lighter than most of the top DSLRs and I doubt the Leica will be lighter
The CS lenes don't go beyond 1/500th becuase Leica is able to achieve this speed at all apertures. In other words, the shutter would be capable of syncing faster at certain apertures, but is being limited so that 1/500th is consistent across the entire range. This is not how Hasselblad rates their sync speed. Instead, they use True Exposure in which "extremely fast exposures are compensated for with a marginal adjustment to the aperture, in order to keep the generated exposure independent of aperture setting. Only the fastest shutter speed combined with the smallest aperture setting could result in slightly flawed exposures, but fortunately this is a combination that rarely occurs." (taken from Hasselblad white paper on leaf shutters in HC lenses) 1/800th sounds better for marketing purposes, but for me, I'd rather know that the shutter speed and aperture I select won't be changed by the camera.
I care less about the marketing babble (from both sides) and more about whether you can take a picture with flash at a high speed or not. I've not heard of anyone using an H (1/800) or a 6008/ AFi (1/1000) with sync problems (whatever the aperture is...e.g. if I can freeze motion at a desired f4 without smearing or seeing black then that's good enough).
The preview is very good. Playback and zoom to 100% are both instaneous, with no hourglass, pixelization, etc. The screen is 460K pixels(same res as iPhone screen), features image brightness adjustment, backlight intensity (discreet adjustments), and an ambient light sensor. The camera is capable of on-the-fly JPG rendering, so on-screen previews are fully rendered at 100%.
Well done!
While the mirror slap will have to be shown in files as you suggest, anyone can immediately tell that the shutter is much better damped, faster, with less black-out, and far less vibration in the body. This will be pretty clear when people start using the S2.
Agreed. Time will tell after tech specs are provided, images are shown, comparisons are done, and photographers start using the S2.
David
Looking forward!
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What kind of buffer does the S2 have?
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.......... An architectural photographer I spoke to only needs the 35 to start, with the 24 later on.......
David
this is a crazy setup.
but sometimes still happens that photographers come from film and trust to camera vendors,- obviously the best way to burn a lot of money. shame on the person who sold this leica together with the 35mm lens as a "beginner system" for any architectural photographer.
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this is a crazy setup.
but sometimes still happens that photographers come from film and trust to camera vendors,- obviously the best way to burn a lot of money. shame on the person who sold this leica together with the 35mm lens as a "beginner system" for any architectural photographer.
I totally agree. IMO It is a really poor investment compared to a Canon and the new T/S lenses for an entry level system. Or for that matter for an adequate professional system. I do all my professional AP work these days with Canons. Also a 35 lens is not wide enough if you are only going to own one lens. When we used to shoot 4x5 film the common saying was a 90mm was your 90% lens, meaning you would use it 90% of the time. On a full frame camera that translates to about a 28mm lens. So with FF DSLRS and T/S lenses the 24 becomes your 90% lens. You simply don't have the room most of the time to get back far enough to use a 35. I own a Olympus 35PC, a quality lens and use it occasionally, and I would love to have a first class 28 T/S, but I have gotten used to the 24 now. In any event for the price of the Leica one should be looking at a mf system with movements, ie a real architectural camera or a Canon and spend the rest on marketing and building your portfolio..
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What kind of buffer does the S2 have?
The S2 has a 1GB buffer and the Maestro processor is capable of pushing through about 120MB/sec. The S2 is also one of the only cameras that is UDMA 6 compliant, meaning that it is capable of writing to 600x cards at 90MB/sec.
If the camera keeps to the specs, it could shoot a 64 shot burst at full resolution in 42 seconds before hitting the buffer, using a 600x card. The buffer would then clear in 11 seconds.
The S2 is a very, very fast system.
David
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What kind of buffer does the S2 have?
Giorgio, are you referring to the old guy who might be buying? I have to exclude this one because he can´t afford it.
Rob C
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The S2 has a 1GB buffer and the Maestro processor is capable of pushing through about 120MB/sec. The S2 is also one of the only cameras that is UDMA 6 compliant, meaning that it is capable of writing to 600x cards at 90MB/sec.
If the camera keeps to the specs, it could shoot a 64 shot burst at full resolution in 42 seconds before hitting the buffer, using a 600x card. The buffer would then clear in 11 seconds.
The S2 is a very, very fast system.
David
Giorgio, are you referring to the old guy who might be buying? I have to exclude this one because he can´t afford it.
Rob C
Thanks for the explanation David! This is very informative.
If this camera does turn up as an option in the rental department (FotoCare) then I am definitely going to take it out for a spin.
I can't help but find this new system intriguing, I sincerely wish Leica well.
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The S2 has a 1GB buffer and the Maestro processor is capable of pushing through about 120MB/sec. The S2 is also one of the only cameras that is UDMA 6 compliant, meaning that it is capable of writing to 600x cards at 90MB/sec.
If the camera keeps to the specs, it could shoot a 64 shot burst at full resolution in 42 seconds before hitting the buffer, using a 600x card. The buffer would then clear in 11 seconds.
The S2 is a very, very fast system.
David
Being a bit of a computer aficionado, my jaw drops looking at those numbers. Bluray is widely considered very high bit rate at 40Mbps max (compared to DVD at around 10Mbps), requiring heavy machinery to move it down the pipe fast enough. Leica has managed to squeeze a much faster system (90 MBps = 720 Mbps, Bytes vs bits) in a package which fits in your hands, and (presumably) doesn't melt marble due to excess heat. I believe that's around three times as fast as 1Ds MkIII pushes data.
I wonder how many laws of physics Leica engineers are violating
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I totally agree. IMO It is a really poor investment compared to a Canon and the new T/S lenses for an entry level system. Or for that matter for an adequate professional system. I do all my professional AP work these days with Canons. Also a 35 lens is not wide enough if you are only going to own one lens. When we used to shoot 4x5 film the common saying was a 90mm was your 90% lens, meaning you would use it 90% of the time. On a full frame camera that translates to about a 28mm lens. So with FF DSLRS and T/S lenses the 24 becomes your 90% lens. You simply don't have the room most of the time to get back far enough to use a 35. I own a Olympus 35PC, a quality lens and use it occasionally, and I would love to have a first class 28 T/S, but I have gotten used to the 24 now. In any event for the price of the Leica one should be looking at a mf system with movements, ie a real architectural camera or a Canon and spend the rest on marketing and building your portfolio..
Um, this is confusing. The 35mm on the Leica equates roughly to 25mm in you Canon system. So isn't that exactly what you want?? And wouldn't you expect a real improvement in image quality by comparison to the Canon? Agreed that the medium format system with movements sounds better but we don't know how that Leica lens works at the moment.
There are people out there who only use one focal length. At my most creative time, I only used two lenses (28mm and 100mm). When I used a Rollei MF my only lenses were 50mm and 120mm. We don't all need buckets of gear to say we have a "system".
Don.
Edit: Actually, maybe I'm the confused one? I assumed the perspective control lens in the released pictures was the 35mm we were talking about but now wonder if that is wrong and the reference is just to a normal 35mm. Sorry, haven't got time to chase every last detail. Anyway, the point about focal length stands..
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I assumed the perspective control lens in the released pictures was the 35mm we were talking about but now wonder if that is wrong and the reference is just to a normal 35mm.
yes, there is a 35mm TS on the list (AFAIK announced for spring 2010) but the 35mm mentioned above is the regular 35mm.
I wonder how the TS will work with the offset microlenses especially as there is no dedicated software to correct lens/sensor cast...
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Looks like the S3 will be the camera to buy - all the lenses will be out by then and the bugs too.
Edmund
yes, there is a 35mm TS on the list (AFAIK announced for spring 2010) but the 35mm mentioned above is the regular 35mm.
I wonder how the TS will work with the offset microlenses especially as there is no dedicated software to correct lens/sensor cast...
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Looks like the S3 will be the camera to buy - all the lenses will be out by then and the bugs too.
looks like the D4x with 30MP will be the camera to buy. Or, if you like AF lenses without compromise usable at all apertures and not just f11 the Sony A1000 with 30MP and ZA lenses (if Sony will ever make some TS glass) :-)
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looks like the D4x with 30MP will be the camera to buy. Or, if you like AF lenses without compromise usable at all apertures and not just f11 the Sony A1000 with 30MP and ZA lenses (if Sony will ever make some TS glass) :-)
At 30 MP / 35mm lenses will be diffraction limited around F8
On the other hand, the 17mm and 24mm TS/E Canon lenses are available right now, and the 5D2+TS/E17 costs as much as any Leica S2 lens.
Edmund
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At 30 MP / 35mm lenses will be diffraction limited around F8
I know... wasn't a serious note.
However... see the "Moore's Law" articles.
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Where a previous poster said that the discussion should be split at 17x22", the split point may be somewhat higher - in the range of 24x36". There is at least one "35mm" DSLR right now that prints 24x36 at gallery quality, even with high-detail subjects, and I strongly suspect that this group will increase in the next 6 months to a year when Canon responds to the D3x, and Sony may introduce a 14-bit, lower noise Alpha 950, and Leica themselves may introduce a rangefinder M9 with the pixels, dynamic range, etc... to go to 24x36". I just wonder how many MF systems can survive in the tiny market above 24x36 inch prints (assuming that FF35 remains constrained at that print size by diffraction, noise, etc...). Is there room for Phase, Hasselblad and Leica in what used to be, essentially, the 4x5 film market (the D3x and its upcoming competitors are competitive with 6x9 cm film). Unlike 4x5, where any camera takes any lens, and Keith Canham can build well-regarded cameras in his garage, a MFD system requires a significant development team for lenses, software and interfacing new generations of sensors. Are there enough applications requiring 4x5 quality to support three such teams?
-Dan
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Where a previous poster said that the discussion should be split at 17x22", the split point may be somewhat higher - in the range of 24x36". There is at least one "35mm" DSLR right now that prints 24x36 at gallery quality, even with high-detail subjects, and I strongly suspect that this group will increase in the next 6 months to a year when Canon responds to the D3x, and Sony may introduce a 14-bit, lower noise Alpha 950, and Leica themselves may introduce a rangefinder M9 with the pixels, dynamic range, etc... to go to 24x36". I just wonder how many MF systems can survive in the tiny market above 24x36 inch prints (assuming that FF35 remains constrained at that print size by diffraction, noise, etc...). Is there room for Phase, Hasselblad and Leica in what used to be, essentially, the 4x5 film market (the D3x and its upcoming competitors are competitive with 6x9 cm film). Unlike 4x5, where any camera takes any lens, and Keith Canham can build well-regarded cameras in his garage, a MFD system requires a significant development team for lenses, software and interfacing new generations of sensors. Are there enough applications requiring 4x5 quality to support three such teams?
-Dan
Well I would more say that all 4 current cameras can make 24x36 prints and if the files are processed right you won't see a difference. You don't really believe you could tell a d3x apart from a 5dII or 1dsmkII file or a Sony file ? I don't think so and if you do. Than you really have to be special. The only thing to say about these cameras would be that the sony is weeker with very high iso. That's about it.
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Here we go ...
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Where a previous poster said that the discussion should be split at 17x22", the split point may be somewhat higher - in the range of 24x36". There is at least one "35mm" DSLR right now that prints 24x36 at gallery quality, even with high-detail subjects, and I strongly suspect that this group will increase in the next 6 months to a year when Canon responds to the D3x, and Sony may introduce a 14-bit, lower noise Alpha 950, and Leica themselves may introduce a rangefinder M9 with the pixels, dynamic range, etc... to go to 24x36". I just wonder how many MF systems can survive in the tiny market above 24x36 inch prints (assuming that FF35 remains constrained at that print size by diffraction, noise, etc...). Is there room for Phase, Hasselblad and Leica in what used to be, essentially, the 4x5 film market (the D3x and its upcoming competitors are competitive with 6x9 cm film). Unlike 4x5, where any camera takes any lens, and Keith Canham can build well-regarded cameras in his garage, a MFD system requires a significant development team for lenses, software and interfacing new generations of sensors. Are there enough applications requiring 4x5 quality to support three such teams?
-Dan
as a former member of the 4x5 to 8x10 club and dealing strickly in the commercial realm..I would say that yes there is room for a few players in that game..I would like to see the math of the money that was spent 10 years ago on film, polaroid and processing sheet-film world wide....granted, the need for large format
in the print world has shrunk some as the print market has shrunk due to increases of other media, but I am reminded of how folks not directly envolved with this segment underestimate the amount of work that is produced..Seems every week I meet a new person and they learn I am a photographer their first and only question is "who do you take pics of".. Maybe I am old school but I still see a need for the 60mp or 39ms on a tech camera and the viability of a tweener, such as the S2 seems to be. I will be the first to admit that a ff 24mp dslr can do a huge chunk of what is needed nowadays..but having that extra headroom for me is a welcome.
I had to laugh this morning when I saw a bumber sticker in front of me.." life is too short to hunt with an ugly dog" - unknown
it seemed to strike a nerve in this still lifer.
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Well I would more say that all 4 current cameras can make 24x36 prints and if the files are processed right you won't see a difference. You don't really believe you could tell a d3x apart from a 5dII or 1dsmkII file or a Sony file ? I don't think so and if you do. Than you really have to be special.
Have you compared them for actual prints that size, or is your opinion based on the fact that these cameras feature similar resolutions?
Cheers,
Bernard
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Have you compared them for actual prints that size, or is your opinion based on the fact that these cameras feature similar resolutions?
Cheers,
Bernard
Haven't we moved a long way off topic! I'll stick my oar in and say that the camera resolution and eventual print size depend heavily on what the subject matter is. I remember the first large digital print I sold (over 36 inches) was from a one megapixel file but it looked fantastic. Nevertheless, we all know that more pixels give more flexibility. The question here is also the quality of pixels and that may, in fact, be what makes or breaks the new Leica more than price, etc. An interesting wait ahead....
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Have you compared them for actual prints that size, or is your opinion based on the fact that these cameras feature similar resolutions?
Cheers,
Bernard
Didn't Michael do a similar comparison and reach a similar conclusion
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Didn't Michael do a similar comparison and reach a similar conclusion
I have seen enough raw files in Antarctica and recently in the US from all four cameras. Every camera has a few advantages, but they are to minor to show in a print. Or should i say they are to close together to show. I'm pretty confident, when using the same quality lens on all four, processed and printed most or all of us couldn't tell a difference if there is no label to them. I really don't want to bring this topic back up, but I still think some of the advantages we see in some files is, what we want to see after spending x amount of money for a specific product. (I'm not going deeper into this discussion as we had it often enough between high end DSLRs and low end MFDBs)
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Didn't Michael do a similar comparison and reach a similar conclusion
Yes but Bernard would think that his d3x is even better than Caravaggio, why even bother with Canon or Sony.
He can stitch it to infinite resolutions beyond imagination.
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Yes but Bernard would think that his d3x is even better than Caravaggio, why even bother with Canon or Sony.
He can stitch it to infinite resolutions beyond imagination.
Somewhere over the rainbow ...
Edmund
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Yes but Bernard would think that his d3x is even better than Caravaggio, why even bother with Canon or Sony.
He can stitch it to infinite resolutions beyond imagination.
there is no doubt that the D3x is the best DSLR out there, with the best low-medium-high iso files, but i cannot
see differences in prints when properly processed.
peter
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Yes but Bernard would think that his d3x is even better than Caravaggio, why even bother with Canon or Sony.
He can stitch it to infinite resolutions beyond imagination.
I am just trying to help you gentlemen, how you use the information that I provide is up to you... I hope you'll forgive me if your customers reach the conclusion that fuzzy prints made from 60MP P65+ files are not worth the money.
Cheers,
Bernard
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http://www.photoscala.de/Artikel/Leica-mit...Zukunft-hoffend (http://www.photoscala.de/Artikel/Leica-mit-roten-Zahlen-auf-die-Zukunft-hoffend)
google translation: http://translate.google.de/translate?u=htt...de&ie=UTF-8 (http://translate.google.de/translate?u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.photoscala.de%2FArtikel%2FLeica-mit-roten-Zahlen-auf-die-Zukunft-hoffend&sl=de&tl=en&hl=de&ie=UTF-8)
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there is no doubt that the D3x is the best DSLR out there
Baloney. "Best" needs to be qualified for the intended purpose.
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Baloney. "Best" needs to be qualified for the intended purpose.
by 'best' i mean 'unsurpassed in IQ, under every possible shooting condition'.
if you prefer canon or nikon lenses is -to some externd- a matter of taste.
but anyway, this is OT.
peter
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I am not at all sure that Nikon D3X is the best camera @ f/16 (and 100 ISO) with pixel size = 5.9 µm
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by 'best' i mean 'unsurpassed in IQ, under every possible shooting condition'.
if you prefer canon or nikon lenses is -to some externd- a matter of taste.
but anyway, this is OT.
peter
Off topic, but leading us neatly back. The Leica S2 is a DSLR! And I'd be amazed if it didn't surpass the D3x in many (not all) shooting conditions - which is surely the point of a camera like this! Can I use a smiley face here?
Don
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Off topic, but leading us neatly back. The Leica S2 is a DSLR! And I'd be amazed if it didn't surpass the D3x in many (not all) shooting conditions - which is surely the point of a camera like this! Can I use a smiley face here?
An interesting question is whether it is significantly better than the 1ds4 to be released in a few month at 1/3 the price... then the d4x will follow...
I would be very surprised if Leica were able to keep up with the pace of developement imposed by the Japanese companies... they have much larger team working much longer hours...
Cheers,
Bernard
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Give us a break. The S2 will be 400 ISO max reasonably @ F2.5 with single-point AF, a big sensor, superb lenses; The D3x can do 8 images per second cropped when pushed, can do fast muti-point follow focusand shoots very well at 1600 Iso with an F1.4 lensor a 400mm . D3x vs S2 is is like comparing a heavy truck to a pickup: Don't compare.
For studio use, a budding fashion photographer might prefer to get a D3x and invest the rest in colombian supplies that keep models happy and ADs faithful - advice given to me me by a would-be mentor which I'm passing on in the spirit in which it was given - as an ex-mathematician I found the ways of the fashion world quite mysterious
Edmund
Off topic, but leading us neatly back. The Leica S2 is a DSLR! And I'd be amazed if it didn't surpass the D3x in many (not all) shooting conditions - which is surely the point of a camera like this! Can I use a smiley face here?
Don
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Give us a break. The S2 will be 400 ISO max reasonably @ F2.5 with single-point AF, a big sensor, superb lenses; The D3x can do 8 images per second cropped when pushed, can do fast muti-point follow focusand shoots very well at 1600 Iso with an F1.4 lensor a 400mm . D3x vs S2 is is like comparing a heavy truck to a pickup: Don't compare.
For studio use, a budding fashion photographer might prefer to get a D3x and invest the rest in colombian supplies that keep models happy and ADs faithful - advice given to me me by a would-be mentor which I'm passing on in the spirit in which it was given - as an ex-mathematician I found the ways of the fashion world quite mysterious
Edmund
Well I hope not, because that would make the leica sensless. It must have a very clean ISO 800 and should hvae a good usable 1600. Why ? because even the P65 can do a very good ISO 400, so as ISO performance goes I'm expecting a lot more from the S2, or leica can pack their stuff and go home. I don't know about the d3x at high ISOs, but my 5dmk2 shines not at ISO 800, that is something a 1DsMk2 or 5d could do very well, it shines from 1600 and upwardes taking images when it really is dark.
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by 'best' i mean 'unsurpassed in IQ, under every possible shooting condition'.
Your initial statement that "there is no doubt" is a bit of a stretch. Some who use both the D3x and the Leica DMR prefer the overall image quality of the DMR, while acknowledging the higher pixel count and more accurate colors of the D3x. You'll have to narrow your definition of image quality a bit more. Pixel count? Yup, lots of pixels. Color accuracy? Yup, pretty good. Overall image quality? Hmmm... there are some who will disagree with you.
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Give us a break. The S2 will be 400 ISO max
I don't think we've seen specs or test results yet.
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One thing that would be really useful in comparing image qualities (as a previous poster said, too bad we can't post prints here - ANY of these cameras will look the same in a JPEG online) would be to have some place where really experienced users of each camera could gather, work with the same subjects (a range of them), and compare results. The people posting about very positive D3x results here (largely Bernard and myself) have thousands of shots on their D3x bodies, and are getting stunning results. Could I get the same results out of an Alpha 900 (that I've never really used, and that I have no idea how to handle the files from) that I get after 10,000 shots on my D3x - no! Could an Alpha 900 shooter with equal experience? I have no idea, and that test has never been done. The only meaningful way to really measure image quality among cameras like these that are ALL very good is to get a bunch of us together (with similar subject preferences), experienced on different systems, each with his or her own camera and favorite lenses, and work on similar subjects in the same place, then compare large (24x36 or larger) prints off the same printer. We've gone beyond where weeklong tests can tell us much - it takes months or years to learn how to obtain the best quality from any of these systems, and I'm confident that the systems are all so good at this point that any given photographer will make their best image with their own camera - whatever differences there are will show only when the person using each camera knows it and is comfortable with it.
A dream test/conclave would include Nikon (D3x), Canon(5D2 and 1Ds4 when it comes out), Sony (Alpha 900), a couple of resolutions of Phase including the P65+, Hasselblad (the H3DII/50 plus at least one of the lower resolution options), and the S2. A wide variety of converters and other software would be available, including all of the manufacturer converters plus Capture One Pro (Phase's converter does very well with Nikon and I've heard Sony as well), Lightroom/Camera Raw, Raw Developer and perhaps others. Any of the recent printers would work (Canon 6100 or 8100, Epson 7900 or 9900, or HP Z3200), as long as someone was on hand who knew the printer, and could advise photographers who usually printed with something else. Ideally, we'd have several shooters per system, because the needs and experience of, say a landscape photographer will be quite different from a studio shooter. I don't imagine we'd come up with an overall winner, but rather a collection of strengths and weaknesses for each system.
I have no idea who would set up and finance such a test... I can't imagine Photo Techniques or any other publication read by the right audience has the money to get this together. Could it work as a workshop of some sort? Would the manufacturers or dealers be able to bury the hatchet long enough to contribute - for that matter, is there some dealer who represents all the manufacturers who would be interested in helping out?
-Dan
-Dan
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Well I hope not, because that would make the leica sensless. It must have a very clean ISO 800 and should hvae a good usable 1600. Why ? because even the P65 can do a very good ISO 400, so as ISO performance goes I'm expecting a lot more from the S2, or leica can pack their stuff and go home. I don't know about the d3x at high ISOs, but my 5dmk2 shines not at ISO 800, that is something a 1DsMk2 or 5d could do very well, it shines from 1600 and upwardes taking images when it really is dark.
Perception and reality are way different, though in the world of take photos for clients perception makes a difference.
If anyone feels laying out two Leicas on a magliner will get them more props, then maybe it's a wise investment, but probably the only clients that will impressed with the brand of camera will probably be not the best type of client. In this business, two days later when the web gallaries are delivered it's about the image, not the camera, even for the easily impressed client.
Medium format has always kind of skirted the issue of high iso for a long time.
I assume because they are limited to buying their sensors off the shelf from Dalsaland or Kodakland.
This was ok, well almost ok, when the world was 300 dpi traditional print, dslrs were limited to filling a page without interpolation and the standard lighting source were thousands of watts of flash.
Now more and more projects require motion imagery in the same style of the stills and that means continuous light sources, the ability to pull focus and have a high shutter speed and with any larger sensor still camera that won't go to a clean
800 iso is going to put a strain on holding focus, depth of field and just the ability to do the job.
I do a lot of stills to motion, motion to stills, motion and still projects and I can tell you there is as of today no perfect camera, or no perfect combination system.
For the still photographer, a autofocus 15 to 20mpx camera that shoots 24 fps and each frame is good enough for a high quality still would be the answer and not really the photographer's answer but the client's answer.
God, clients would fall over backwards if such a camera existed and even if you shoot the motion in a separate session, before or after the stills, just having one lighting soultion, one camera would be perfect.
Today it's either a combo cam, or a RED along with some kind of still camera to accomplish this and even if you have to use two systems it makes a world of difference to use continuous light vs. flash.
I've done projects where we turn on the flash, shoot a session, turn on the hmi or tungsten and shoot the same or kind of the same session in motion, but hanging two sets of lights with the same look and style in the same place is a chore and though it's possible, it ain't easy.
In todays economy where we usually work at breakneck speed this becomes even more difficult.
Ok, now I know the response to this post will be "I'm a still photographer, I'll never shoot video or motion" and that may be true, though limited, but even if you as a "still" photographer will never own or operate a motion camera, soon if not already your clients will have a dedicated
crew for motion and if you can't complete both in the same setting your adding costs and adding costs does not go over big in 2009.
Also running two crews means somebody is going to get the short end of the stick. Either the still guy/girl or the motion crew is going to be fighting for territory and that rarely works out.
In the past it was not unheard of for the video crew to be the secondary behind the scenes guy and for that it kind of worked, but today, nobody cares as much about behind the scenes as having the same look in two mediums and we're now seeing the priorities change.
The stills are carrying less weight that the motion imagery so it's not hard to fathom that soon stills might be relegated to the B camera status, which is not a position any of us want to find ourselves in.
Nobody wants to be the still guy with a Nikon or Leica around their neck that is whistled in to shoot a few frames after the A crew with the RED or an Arriflex has completed their session.
Even if the term motion or video did not exist, working with continuous light sources is twice as fast as working with flash. Flash is math, continuous is wysiwyg, or pretty close to it.
Now I also know that somebody is going to say "my p30+ Phamiya does 800 iso very clean" and in some instances that's true, though your always one stop down due to format size. What pulls focus at F5.6 125th of second with a dslr requires twice the light volume with even a cropped
medium format camera to get the same effect.
Also digital is very scene/lighting specific. What has minimal noise with direct light and light to medium toned backgrounds can become a snowstorm with black low key subjects at the same iso.
I've shot my p30+ at 800 iso on high key soft light imagery that works fine and the noise is minimal, I've also shot the next day on black or low key lighting at the same iso and it was almost unusable without a lot of post work, masks, etc.
So for the S-2 to make any impact it has to have high iso, it has to have fast autofocus and it has to work in a variety of situations, because it's not a $3,000 dlsr, you use as a backup or some of the time, it's a $50,000 guess I can't buy the new Audi type of investment.
As every still photographer says, they would love to see the S2 succeed, me included, but when the rubber hits the road at the end of the day it's not about the camera, it's about getting the job done and not losing 75 hours in post produciton to make a usable image, or worse drop the 50k and find the camera sitting in a case for most of the day.
JR
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re:
"Ok, now I know the response to this post will be "I'm a still photographer, I'll never shoot video or motion" and that may be true, though limited,"
The one time I have ever been asked about a specific camera by a client was last week - they are a major ad agency and do TV and print advertising work for some of the most expensive residences in the world (NY, Dubai, London...) and they called me BECAUSE they know I have a 5D2 and they like the camera. And there *may* be some need for video footage. (They also asked me if I had shot with the Red...) I have been on set with them in the past and they were using six-figure motion picture cameras and huge crews, and here they are calling me because of my little old 5D2. It's funny, but true.
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there is no doubt that the D3x is the best DSLR out there, with the best low-medium-high iso files, but i cannot
see differences in prints when properly processed.
peter
Peter
Do you shoot strobes? with D3x.
I bought the camera with a hope to give it some use side by side with my AptusAFi/Rz. The color results I am getting are horrible and render it unusable as compared to Aptus. I try all WB options, shooting MacBeth or gray card. Equal disaster. I tried P1 software and Nikon one. No help.
More than that even trying to tweek it in post I can get it anywhere close to what I like.
The camera shines with tungsten or daylight. I will be happy with it if it could work in the studio.
Furthermore even the lowest setting on Grafit packs is too much light without huge softboxes.
Any thoughts, help - anybody?
Andre Napier
http://AndreNapier.com (http://AndreNapier.com)
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Peter
Do you shoot strobes? with D3x.
I bought the camera with a hope to give it some use side by side with my AptusAFi/Rz. The color results I am getting are horrible and render it unusable as compared to Aptus. I try all WB options, shooting MacBeth or gray card. Equal disaster. I tried P1 software and Nikon one. No help.
More than that even trying to tweek it in post I can get it anywhere close to what I like.
The camera shines with tungsten or daylight. I will be happy with it if it could work in the studio.
Furthermore even the lowest setting on Grafit packs is too much light without huge softboxes.
Any thoughts, help - anybody?
Andre Napier
http://AndreNapier.com (http://AndreNapier.com)
andre,
i have no experience with strobes-i should have excluded them from the beginning of the discussion. i assume the MF backs do much better there.
but i was just trying to compare DSLR, i.e. canon-nikon-sony.
i do appreciate the qualities of medium format, particularly phase and hasselblad. i have a H3DII-50 and the P65+ will be arriving next week,
to be used on alpa...and maybe on my old H1. back to TO, i just cannot get myself to believe that the S2 can compete with either system.
peter
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Give us a break. The S2 will be 400 ISO max reasonably @ F2.5 with single-point AF, a big sensor, superb lenses; The D3x can do 8 images per second cropped when pushed, can do fast muti-point follow focusand shoots very well at 1600 Iso with an F1.4 lensor a 400mm . D3x vs S2 is is like comparing a heavy truck to a pickup: Don't compare.
For studio use, a budding fashion photographer might prefer to get a D3x and invest the rest in colombian supplies that keep models happy and ADs faithful - advice given to me me by a would-be mentor which I'm passing on in the spirit in which it was given - as an ex-mathematician I found the ways of the fashion world quite mysterious
Edmund
You can have a break if you want. Please take one. You don't know what ASA/ISO the S2 will be good at. Besides, it doesn't matter. You can't put it in the same pile as other medium format cameras because it has its own format. Remember, it has virtually the same pixel density as your loved D3X except fifty percent more, with (we expect) lenses that make the most of that. Therefore, in many (again, not all) cases, including what I might shoot often, it promises to be significantly better. Obviously.
Like many, I virtually never shoot 8, 5 or even one shot per second. My photos are considered, composed and taken. I rarely use more than 800ASA. Those machine gun statistics are of little interest to me. Actually, I prefer the Sony 900 to the D3X (shock, horror). A marginal hit on ultimate image quality except the lens part of the equation makes that academic but much nicer to hold, carry and use. The S2, well, who has used one to even judge?
Don
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You can have a break if you want. Please take one. You don't know what ASA/ISO the S2 will be good at. Besides, it doesn't matter. You can't put it in the same pile as other medium format cameras because it has its own format. Remember, it has virtually the same pixel density as your loved D3X except fifty percent more, with (we expect) lenses that make the most of that. Therefore, in many (again, not all) cases, including what I might shoot often, it promises to be significantly better. Obviously.
Like many, I virtually never shoot 8, 5 or even one shot per second. My photos are considered, composed and taken. I rarely use more than 800ASA. Those machine gun statistics are of little interest to me. Actually, I prefer the Sony 900 to the D3X (shock, horror). A marginal hit on ultimate image quality except the lens part of the equation makes that academic but much nicer to hold, carry and use. The S2, well, who has used one to even judge?
Don
no need of live view either? maybe for focusing with TS lenses? or multi point AF? do you really find the 'zeiss for sony' lenses better than their nikon counterparts?
peter
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Indeed, Don, you average truck driver is not going to find much use for the speed and flexibility of a pickup -
As for arguing about the size and weight of the D3x, well guess what? I'm on your side, the thing is about as large as it can be and still remain portable.
Edmund
You can have a break if you want. Please take one. You don't know what ASA/ISO the S2 will be good at. Besides, it doesn't matter. You can't put it in the same pile as other medium format cameras because it has its own format. Remember, it has virtually the same pixel density as your loved D3X except fifty percent more, with (we expect) lenses that make the most of that. Therefore, in many (again, not all) cases, including what I might shoot often, it promises to be significantly better. Obviously.
Like many, I virtually never shoot 8, 5 or even one shot per second. My photos are considered, composed and taken. I rarely use more than 800ASA. Those machine gun statistics are of little interest to me. Actually, I prefer the Sony 900 to the D3X (shock, horror). A marginal hit on ultimate image quality except the lens part of the equation makes that academic but much nicer to hold, carry and use. The S2, well, who has used one to even judge?
Don
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Indeed, Don, you average truck driver is not going to find much use for the speed and flexibility of a pickup -
As for arguing about the size and weight of the D3x, well guess what? I'm on your side, the thing is about as large as it can be and still remain portable.
Edmund
Well said, Edmund. And, actually, I use a small car and a four wheel drive, just as I use different cameras for different uses. You know, perfection brings weight and cost, which isn't perfection. And so the circle goes round.
To Peter, I had the first live view DSLR (the Olympus E330) and still have a live view DSLR. I use it but not much. I've got a point and shoot which only has live view. I don't really care that much but do hate viewfinders which don't show the scene accurately, which includes SLRs which don't show 100%. To some people live view is a deal breaker, to others it's a gimmick. Most of us are in the middle somewhere!
I've used a few Nikon lenses and not liked them but I know they make good ones too. I've used three of the better Sony/Zeiss lenses and loved them but have personal experience of some really bad optics in that mount too. So, yes, I've found Sony better but I would be naive to say that sample makes Sony better overall! Heading back on topic, I just wondered how Leica will fare with the new lenses. My understanding is that they concentrate on features other than absolute resolution (eveness across the frame, contrast, rendition of out-of-focus areas and so on). Will we have more internet threads slamming them when they come out? Perfection doesn't come easily.
Don.
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One of the things that I've heard about the D3x and to some extent the 1DsIII is that you'll not get the full benefit of the resolution if you shoot hand-held, because hand-held is inherently unstable enough that you'll lose some degree of sharpness. (Notice that I say "some degree" of sharpness -- not that they'd be blurred or unusable.) If that is the case, wouldn't the Leica have the same problem, and wouldn't that reduce the advantage of this system? (This is a real question -- I don't know the answer.)
If that is the case, and if you need basically to shoot the Leica on a tripod to take advantage of its benefits, then don't you lose the advantage of its form-factor as well?
JC
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Yes, this is one of the thing one learns with digital MF: If you use natural light, you need hi-Iso or else your handheld shots are blurred. Of course shooters here care less because they use studio flash. I'd say they would still profit from Hi-Iso if they do location work because every stop ISO means less rental fees and easier transportation and setup for lights.
Edmund
One of the things that I've heard about the D3x and to some extent the 1DsIII is that you'll not get the full benefit of the resolution if you shoot hand-held, because hand-held is inherently unstable enough that you'll lose some degree of sharpness. (Notice that I say "some degree" of sharpness -- not that they'd be blurred or unusable.) If that is the case, wouldn't the Leica have the same problem, and wouldn't that reduce the advantage of this system? (This is a real question -- I don't know the answer.)
If that is the case, and if you need basically to shoot the Leica on a tripod to take advantage of its benefits, then don't you lose the advantage of its form-factor as well?
JC
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Not to beat a dead horse, but does anybody know anything about the announced service packages? I couldn't find anything on the web...
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Yes, this is one of the thing one learns with digital MF: If you use natural light, you need hi-Iso or else your handheld shots are blurred. Of course shooters here care less because they use studio flash. I'd say they would still profit from Hi-Iso if they do location work because every stop ISO means less rental fees and easier transportation and setup for lights.
Edmund
WHY (he screams!) are shots with digital capture more likely to be blurred if you shoot hand held in natural light than shooting at the same ISO in the same conditions with film?
I have experienced this myself but so far have not found any good explanation about why this happens.
Why doesn't Leica/Canon/Phase/Hasselblad print a warning about this in the instruction manual alongside the usual instructions about not putting the camera in a microwave and not disposing of the batteries in the campfire?
If this question is not appropriate here please move it to the appropriate place.
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WHY (he screams!) are shots with digital capture more likely to be blurred if you shoot hand held in natural light than shooting at the same ISO in the same conditions with film?
I have experienced this myself but so far have not found any good explanation about why this happens.
I'm guessing but I'd say they aren't more blurred, just we used to look at slides on a light table with a loupe, not magnified down to the level of one grain of film! Now, if camera shake is more than half a pixel (a tiny amount) we see it on screen at "100%". I may eat my hat if you could prove a difference in a normal print!
Don.
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Lowep, Don is right, I'm sure it's the magnification when checking things out in Photoshop that's throwing you off. Think about it: looking at a 22mp image at 100% view as rendered on your 72 dpi monitor is like looking at a 6.5' print from 12" away. Ever done that with film? It's not pretty, and you would see just as much blur as you see with digital - but likely the GRAIN would mask some of it. The way we used to check images with a loupe does not compare to the scrutiny of 100 viewing on an LCD screen.
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WHY (he screams!) are shots with digital capture more likely to be blurred if you shoot hand held in natural light than shooting at the same ISO in the same conditions with film?
I have experienced this myself but so far have not found any good explanation about why this happens.
Why doesn't Leica/Canon/Phase/Hasselblad print a warning about this in the instruction manual alongside the usual instructions about not putting the camera in a microwave and not disposing of the batteries in the campfire?
If this question is not appropriate here please move it to the appropriate place.
No one knows why. CPS in Paris used to advise sports shooters to shoot 2 stops higher speed to get equivalently sharp images for 8x10 magazine use.
As to why consumers aren't warned - that's pretty obvious - an ISO 100 base sports camera is not that much use if it has to be treated like an ISO 25 in the real world.
But ... rest assured the Leica *will* be better
Edmund
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http://www.pdnpulse.com/2009/09/seal-heart...e-leica-s2.html (http://www.pdnpulse.com/2009/09/seal-hearts-the-leica-s2.html)
Leica's found their slice of the market here.
Wonder if he leased his?
What a joke.
All he needs now is a sweater wrapped around his shoulders, with the arms tied into a knot, and he'd be ready. He's already donned the safari jacket.
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http://www.pdnpulse.com/2009/09/seal-heart...e-leica-s2.html (http://www.pdnpulse.com/2009/09/seal-hearts-the-leica-s2.html)
Leica's found their slice of the market here.
Wonder if he leased his?
What a joke.
All he needs now is a sweater wrapped around his shoulders, with the arms tied into a knot, and he'd be ready. He's already donned the safari jacket.
being jealous?
wait until you know what kind of car he drives or he is taken around with, jet he charters or art work worth 6/7 figures is hanging on his homes walls.
an S2 is just pocket money for people like that, why do you even bother?
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http://www.pdnpulse.com/2009/09/seal-heart...e-leica-s2.html (http://www.pdnpulse.com/2009/09/seal-hearts-the-leica-s2.html)
Leica's found their slice of the market here.
Wonder if he leased his?
What a joke.
All he needs now is a sweater wrapped around his shoulders, with the arms tied into a knot, and he'd be ready. He's already donned the safari jacket.
seal actually really happens to be a huge camera geek....i have seen him at samys several times....and he has been a leica fan for a long time.....i don't think they had to force him and i am sure they would not be able to afford him anyway.....so he got a S2...everybody is happy....
but there is an obvious joke there...the camera for dentists and for entertainers whose music plays at the gap.....
but seriously, i have liked his music for ever and although i have no personal experience working with him, i have heard nothing but good things about him (and her actually as well....)....i am just jealous i don't have a S2....
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Here's the crowd at Leica shop Paris at the M9 launch.
Edmund
seal actually really happens to be a huge camera geek....i have seen him at samys several times....and he has been a leica fan for a long time.....i don't think they had to force him and i am sure they would not be able to afford him anyway.....so he got a S2...everybody is happy....
but there is an obvious joke there...the camera for dentists and for entertainers whose music plays at the gap.....
but seriously, i have liked his music for ever and although i have no personal experience working with him, i have heard nothing but good things about him (and her actually as well....)....i am just jealous i don't have a S2....
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Here's the crowd at Leica shop Paris at the M9 launch.
Edmund
Nice shot, Edmund.
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The male equivalent of cooing over the newborn.
But why do they all look so sad?
To me they look like they're admiring the (3 yr) old iMac...
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I have not seen one image taken with the S2... but I have seen an S2 image taken with a celebrity! The market for the camera is for the top 10% that is now very apparent. The Leica S2 is not a tool priced for professional use... unless you use diamond encrusted hammers to drive nails...
I am sure it will be a fine camera. Just not sure why the need to exclude the other 90% of those who would make use of this system. They are not taking the time to market to the reqular guys with little features here and there and language that they speak. And please don't try to say that only the most interested in image quality need apply. We have the Phase P65+ now. That is the best thing going... not the S2.
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Leica's found their slice of the market here.
This really isn't an example of a bad idea, it's just not well thought out execution.
The PR photo and the copy that goes with it doesn't do anyone justice.
Seal is a wonderfully nice man, and a passionate, good photographer.
I'm not a celebrity type of guy, but I know him, have spent time with him, talk to him with some regularity and he really does love photography and though this PR photo kind of looks cheesy, it isn't reflective of the person or the talent and I promise you at his pay grade, a free camera isn't that high on the list.
He does love the Leicas, has about every m lens made, visits their factory when on tour and if anything was probably just helping them out.
If it was just for PR or money, there are much larger brands he could lend his name to.
Still this is an example of just rushing out any PR and advertising without a lot of thought. If it was planned and they allowed Seal or anyone that could/would use this camera to shoot some pretty images, it would have a lot more validity and not come across the way it did.
I am always amazed at how poorly specialty cameras companies market and advertise. If you ever saw that silver brochure with the article on Arthur Elgort and the dmr you'd never dream of buying a Leica, which is a shame and once again it's not indicative of the talent.
I know from Seal's photography, you could make a coffee table book of images he has produced with all types of m series cameras and that should have been the message, not this PR image.
BC
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DUDE - Seals photos were being displayed on the giant screen behind him as he was speaking....
the idea of using him was actually quite good the internet presentation of teh live show was ordinary.
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We have the Phase P65+ now. That is the best thing going... not the S2.
Really? You've compared them? Or have you just read the spec sheets?
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I think the S2 and especially the m9 look like really interesting cameras, I just wish Leica would steer themselves more towards the professionals and less towards the wealthy hobbyist, both in pricing and brand-building. It would make for a healthier market and more credible image, and I'm pretty sure it would make financial sense in the long run too. JMHO.
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Really? You've compared them? Or have you just read the spec sheets?
Obviously I have not compared them... the S2 is still at Paradise Ranch getting prepped for public disclosure.
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http://www.pdnpulse.com/2009/09/seal-heart...e-leica-s2.html (http://www.pdnpulse.com/2009/09/seal-hearts-the-leica-s2.html)
Leica's found their slice of the market here.
Wonder if he leased his?
What a joke.
All he needs now is a sweater wrapped around his shoulders, with the arms tied into a knot, and he'd be ready. He's already donned the safari jacket.
Sadly, I trust Seal and his passion much more than I do the "Career is over so to make a living my opinion is for sale if you put me on retainer" photographers that Epson/Adobe and others hire. Epson/Adobe simply do not get it. When I hear these "has beens" shilling it makes me run the other way. At least Leica doesn't expect me to take Seal seriously.
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but there is an obvious joke there...
Sadly, I trust Seal and his passion much more than I do the "Career is over so to make a living my opinion is for sale if you put me on retainer" photographers that Epson/Adobe and others hire. Epson/Adobe simply do not get it. When I hear these "has beens" shilling it makes me run the other way. At least Leica doesn't expect me to take Seal seriously.
I think Leica just wanted be able to put in print that the S2 had the seal of approval. An underling in Germany was given the task of translating seal from German to English, they used Google Translate, and out came Seal.
Thank you, thank you very much... I'm here till Thursday, try the veal, and don't forget to tip your waitresses.
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Yes, this is one of the thing one learns with digital MF: If you use natural light, you need hi-Iso or else your handheld shots are blurred. Of course shooters here care less because they use studio flash. I'd say they would still profit from Hi-Iso if they do location work because every stop ISO means less rental fees and easier transportation and setup for lights.
this is a common misunderstanding.
low iso with a lot of light compared to high iso in low light is the same exposure, but a different look.
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Leica is updating their S2 website:
http://www.s.leica-camera.com/havanna/ (http://www.s.leica-camera.com/havanna/)
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Leica is updating their S2 website:
Thank you for the heads up. A camera for the working professional...
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I would throw myself into Leica's target demographic with one promise - that S2 lenses will fit on future S bodies with larger sensors. Perhaps Leica engineers will use the same sensor expanding trick they employed with the M8 to M9 to accomplish this.
With digital sensor technology improving so rapidly I do not see many professional photographers, conscientious or not, desiring non modular or non upgradable systems - particularly as Phase One will likely introduce something bigger, better and faster than the P65+ in 2010.
No doubt the S2 is a beautiful piece of work. I hope Leica exceeds their sales projections.
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With digital sensor technology improving so rapidly I do not see many professional photographers, conscientious or not, desiring non modular or non upgradable systems - particularly as Phase One will likely introduce something bigger, better and faster than the P65+ in 2010.
Just poking my nose in to say that digital backs require sensors, and sensor technology occurs in steps first-and-foremost controlled my micron size. It's very unlikely Kodak or Dalsa will introduce large CCDs with smaller than 6 micron pixels in 2010.
Therefore the full-frame 6-micron P65+ will likely be the king of the 645 world for a considerable time. Also, even if/when something else comes out with more _____ it's unlikely the P65+ image quality will be considered "sub-par" for a long... long time. Every 8x10 shooter we've done the comparisons with has either purchased or are just waiting to see their end-of-year tax situation to purchase.
Doug Peterson ()
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What do photos like these tell me about this new camera, nothing. Several have dropped in backgrounds. Nice pics but any high end camera can do that. At what point will marketing cameras finally entail visual queues/reasons as to why "we" should buy a camera.
I agree. And I agree with Master Cooter -- what a truly bizarre way to advertise a camera system. Could have been shot at Pier 59 with Broderson Backdrops hanging on CStands. But maybe the Catering was Cuban.
It just makes you shake your head. Millions of dollars and millions of hours from hard working engineers devising this camera, then they hire some cheesey model, take her to Cuba, and try to make some story out of it, and the most that's shown is the Malecon in the background, out of focus and two stops under? Really weird, but if Seal likes it, then I guess I'll buy one.
There oughtta be a law, if you advertise a camera and show samples, then absolutely no retouching allowed, and all the settings on the camera left on default. Just develop the RAW with everything on zero, convert it to CMYK, and stick it in the ad. And if you show the camera body, then no monkey business with stripping in a fake LCD screen image either. Show the product; show what you're selling.
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What do photos like these tell me about this new camera, nothing. Several have dropped in backgrounds. Nice pics but any high end camera can do that. At what point will marketing cameras finally entail visual queues/reasons as to why "we" should buy a camera.
I am no defender of Leica and I might look back on this post in a few years and feel embarrassed about it but...
Web sized images together with Photoshop is a great equalizer. I can not distinguish what type of camera has been used for most any shot these days. Almost shockingly I can say with great confidence that a Canon XT with the kit lens could have been used to make these same images.
... BUT ...
After the shoot is over and the lights are put away your going to want to do two things... Retouch/Process and then Print/View.
1. Your retouchers are going to view the image at 100% and it makes their job a whole lot easier if the image does not look like mush at 100%. This is the biggest advantage to medium format digital at the moment. It applies in all cases.
2. If you print past an 8x10 or show on a monitor with 1,920 pixels wide or more the larger format image has the potential to look better.
Everything else can be accomplished with the other formats and Photoshop. Thus what the Leica S2 does is make shooting with a medium format sensor not so painful. I think the video for the images shown does a good job of conveying that. One thing is certain in 2009. Not Canon, not Nikon, not Leica, not anyone has made a sensor that works at ISO100 and then ISO1600 equally well. You need two sensors tuned for respective ISO goals. Thus 35mm DSLR and 645 MFD still share the same bag.
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I have supported Leica for 13 years. Own/owned thousands of dollars of their equipment. To me, they lack a basic and fundamental necessity and that is customer relations. They, to me, have forgotten that it is the customer that drives the car, not the mechanic. I sold all of my Leica gear to buy Hasselblad for one primary reason. Hasselblad has a system. Leica has a plan. Systems, at least good ones, always trump plans - especially bad ones.
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Own/owned thousands of dollars of their equipment.
You own a service plan and an extra battery for the S2?
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Obviously I have not compared them... the S2 is still at Paradise Ranch getting prepped for public disclosure.
Then what business do you have saying the P65 is better? Here's a sample photo (not at Paradise Ranch, sorry):
http://dfarkas.blogspot.com/ (http://dfarkas.blogspot.com/)
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Funny thing is I have switched to Hasselblad who a lot of people feel abandoned by their decision to leave their legacy behind with the H3d for a company that I am pissed off for leaving their legacy of the R8/9. Go figure.
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Then what business do you have saying the P65 is better? Here's a sample photo (not at Paradise Ranch, sorry):
http://dfarkas.blogspot.com/ (http://dfarkas.blogspot.com/)
Keep in mind I am not referring to the image quality as being the sum total of what makes a camera better. I took the time to expand on that point in post #235. It is impossible to tell which camera is better for a particular situation without using them side by side with an open mind and then comparing the raw files side by side assuming print size goals are the same.
Without taking price into the consideration... a larger sensor with more pixels tends to make an image, at the technical level better. The P65+ therefore should produce a better image. If the S2 has some super new tech going on with it then it will have introduced destructive technological progress.
Please understand I am just chatting online about a camera that is not publicly available yet. I enjoy good conversation.
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There is no one camera as there is no one tool. However, there are great tools and bad tools and the bad tools really piss you off.
http://www.gdwhalen.com (http://www.gdwhalen.con)
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There oughtta be a law, if you advertise a camera
We've all had the meetings, the e-mails, "make sure you show color, that it holds highlights, detail, yea gotta show detail, and do something different like Cuba and boxing but instead of real boxers, do a pretty woman in boxing gloves, but not too provocative so put her in a dress ......."
I doubt if it's the photorapher's fault, he/she is probably pretty good, but It's just typical restrained, overmanaged advertising. It doesn't get it's point across, it doesn't show anything different, heck it doesn't really showcase the uniqueness of the camera.
Thing is they want to sell this camera to photographers who work hard to have no restraints and you could easily pick a dozen or two or three good photographers that without all the chatter would produced some outstanding imagery with this or any camera.
I don't see the point but God help me, I do understand the process.
BC
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We've all had the meetings, the e-mails, "make sure you show color, that it holds highlights, detail, yea gotta show detail, and do something different like Cuba and boxing but instead of real boxers, do a pretty woman in boxing gloves, but not too provocative so put her in a dress ......."
I doubt if it's the photorapher's fault, he/she is probably pretty good, but It's just typical restrained, overmanaged advertising. It doesn't get it's point across, it doesn't show anything different, heck it doesn't really showcase the uniqueness of the camera.
Thing is they want to sell this camera to photographers who work hard to have no restraints and you could easily pick a dozen or two or three good photographers that without all the chatter would produced some outstanding imagery with this or any camera.
I don't see the point but God help me, I do understand the process.
BC
Well I too looked at those pictures and thought that they could have been taken with with a D300 and not the S2. How could anyone tell from those images the quality of an S2 file? Also why go to Cuba. What a waste of money, a pointless exercise. They could have saved the money and taken it off the cost of the camera.
But then you see, I realise the niche that these cameras are aimed at are not your every day working professional but the well off amateur/dentist/lawyer photographer. Maybe they will be impressed by the images and believe that everytime you pick up the S2 you are transported to a land of sunshine and shiny models....
Pete
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When I hear these "has beens" shilling it makes me run the other way.
+1
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We've all had the meetings, the e-mails, "make sure ...
BC
And how many people here do you really think can sympathize?
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And how many people here do you really think can sympathize?
Only about 6 I know of.
BC
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Interesting video of the camera working...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q5jJdmCSS0M (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q5jJdmCSS0M)
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All he [Seal] needs now is a sweater wrapped around his shoulders......
GW, you nailed it...see first segment before S2:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q5jJdmCSS0M (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q5jJdmCSS0M)
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The S2 is postponed until december 2009...
http://www.bjp-online.com/public/showPage.html?page=870175 (http://www.bjp-online.com/public/showPage.html?page=870175)
.
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The S2 is postponer until december 2009...
http://www.bjp-online.com/public/showPage.html?page=870175 (http://www.bjp-online.com/public/showPage.html?page=870175)
.
No surprise...more likely they're STILL sorting out firmware.
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The S2 is postponer until december 2009...
http://www.bjp-online.com/public/showPage.html?page=870175 (http://www.bjp-online.com/public/showPage.html?page=870175)
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Delayed due to unanticipated interest in the camera. Right !
Personally, I still believe that this camera will be the best stillborn photo product of our generation.
I think it was a major tactical misstep for Leica (regardless of its potential) and will never achieve the necessary sales required to recover R & D investment
regardless of the spin that is suggested in the BJP report.
Mark
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I think they should get a new sensor pronto before they release this thing.
Edmund
Delayed due to unanticipated interest in the camera. Right !
Personally, I still believe that this camera will be the best stillborn photo product of our generation.
I think it was a major tactical misstep for Leica (regardless of its potential) and will never achieve the necessary sales required to recover R & D investment
regardless of the spin that is suggested in the BJP report.
Mark
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I think they should get a new sensor pronto before they release this thing.
Edmund
We as photographers know that MP is not everything, but try telling that to a geeky art director who is still thinking in terms of 300dpi while making an image for an airport display! How I wish the new S2 was 60MP instead of 37.
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I think they should get a new sensor pronto before they release this thing.
Why ?
I,briefly, tried the camera a couple of weeks ago and found nothing really lacking in the file.
Files were excellent but no better that Leaf,Phase, or Hasselblad.
In use, the camera, physically, felt more comfortable than any other 645 based body I've owned or used.
I just don't think they are going to sell enough to sustain the line.
Certainly can't see many, if any, migrants from existing entrenched DB systems and while there are certainly going to
be a few Leica personalities buying into in, because that is what they do.
There seemed to be a little groundswell early on from M / R users, with no medium format experience, who wanted the best possible file
but with the surprise release of the FF M9 many now seem to have re-allocated funds to the M line.
We'll see.
Mark
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We as photographers know that MP is not everything, but try telling that to a geeky art director who is still thinking in terms of 300dpi while making an image for an airport display! How I wish the new S2 was 60MP instead of 37.
Don't worry, that geeky art director who was reared on print will be let go and replaced by a nerdy AD who was raised on the web. The bad part is that guy may shoot the images himself.
I've never been asked for files larger than a 22mpix camera provides.
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We as photographers know that MP is not everything, but try telling that to a geeky art director who is still thinking in terms of 300dpi while making an image for an airport display! How I wish the new S2 was 60MP instead of 37.
the airport lightbox/print display? slightly better then billboard quality print? with penny size dots?
or the lcd display which is fed by a 1000x1500 sRGB jpg 9 compression?
yes the 60mp really are necessary....
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Don't worry, that geeky art director who was reared on print will be let go and replaced by a nerdy AD who was raised on the web. The bad part is that guy may shoot the images himself.
I've never been asked for files larger than a 22mpix camera provides.
...on his cellphone...and spends the photographer budget on post production....
i think a couple of years ago some ADs were not sure about digital...they knew film and heard from photographers who were afraid of digital that film was just much better....then they started getting into it and reading PDN and seeing the latest and greatest toys (mostly DMF)....then they worked with people who knew digital and saw what can be done with DSLR (which had gotten so much better).....i think a smart AD will now question if that DMF rental/expense is actually justified in the budget.....
right now any AD wants the RED...not because it is so great but because they have read about it in blogs....and how great it is...for stills as well....that a still from a red is really about equal to a entry level DSLR for less then 1000$ really does not matter.....and editorials and billboards and airport displays and movie posters are printed from a smallish (24.4x13.7mm or a tad more then HALF 35mm) sensor with limited (12mpix) resolution.....
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The S2 is postponed until december 2009...
Amazingly optimistic spin by BJP:
Fact: a product promised for this month is now not coming until later; either December or early next year, depending on which source you read.
BJP Interpretation: this refutes the cynical suggestion that the S2 is ghost product (as in "lots of talk, but no cameras for sale").
I would have thought that a last minute postponement adds a tad of support to that cynical position, rather than refuting it.
Still I do expect the S2 to appear some day, maybe about the same time as the Pentax 645D.
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Fact: a product promised for this month is now not coming until later; either December or early next year, depending on which source you read.
Maybe they've delayed it until someone actually orders one?
Hywel.
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Well I too looked at those pictures and thought that they could have been taken with with a D300 and not the S2. How could anyone tell from those images the quality of an S2 file? Also why go to Cuba. What a waste of money, a pointless exercise. They could have saved the money and taken it off the cost of the camera.
But then you see, I realise the niche that these cameras are aimed at are not your every day working professional but the well off amateur/dentist/lawyer photographer. Maybe they will be impressed by the images and believe that everytime you pick up the S2 you are transported to a land of sunshine and shiny models....
Pete
Better to sell a mythology and a look and feel to people who buy that - than compete in a crowded utilitarian space.
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Get your sense of humours back and be a bit more charitable - this is all discretioanary expenditure. the LAST thing Leica should do is try and compete against PhaMyaBlad and bring our a new whiz bang chip every 6 months with some new whizz bang features that the whiz bang rental shops have to buy because the Whiz bang AD earning peanuts and paying peanuts to pros really really must have.
i thought a "whizz" is what one does when nature calls ...
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Screwed on the other side of the pond too...
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Amazingly optimistic spin by BJP:
Fact: a product promised for this month is now not coming until later; either December or early next year, depending on which source you read. ...
To be fair to Leica, every DMF maker (or would-be maker) has gone through delays and cancellations of announced products, signs I think of a very tough market environment for all of them. Some products still not here past the initial announced arrival date, or promised but then cancelled:
- Leica S2 and lenses
- Hasselblad H3D-60
- Pentax 645D
- one of more lenses for the Hy6 system, like a wider wide angle
- leaf shutter lenses for the Mamiya/Phase One 645AF system
- Mamiya 45-90 zoom
Did I leave anyone out?
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the airport lightbox/print display? slightly better then billboard quality print? with penny size dots?
or the lcd display which is fed by a 1000x1500 sRGB jpg 9 compression?
yes the 60mp really are necessary....
Not the displays at the airports in my area. They are still backlit transparency inkjet prints. Of course 20MP is plenty at normal viewing distance but when the AD's are looking at it on their screens they worry that it's not enough. In the old days they handed the chromes over to the printer and never pixel peeped so they didn't know how low the res really was. I have 2MP files from my old Nikon that made beautiful 16x20" prints hanging on my wall - so you're preaching to the choir on this point.