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Author Topic: Leica S2 Pricing  (Read 91585 times)

Craig Lamson

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« Reply #180 on: August 05, 2009, 08:27:39 pm »

Quote from: BernardLanguillier
Have you compared them for actual prints that size, or is your opinion based on the fact that these cameras feature similar resolutions?

Cheers,
Bernard

Didn't Michael do a similar comparison and reach a similar conclusion
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Christopher

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« Reply #181 on: August 05, 2009, 09:08:26 pm »

Quote from: infocusinc
Didn't Michael do a similar comparison and reach a similar conclusion


I have seen enough raw files in Antarctica and recently in the US from all four cameras. Every camera has a few advantages, but they are to minor to show in a print. Or should i say they are to close together to show. I'm pretty confident, when using the same quality lens on all four, processed and printed most or all of us couldn't tell a difference if there is no label to them. I really don't want to bring this topic back up, but I still think some of the advantages we see in some files is, what we want to see after spending x amount of money for a specific product. (I'm not going deeper into this discussion as we had it often enough between high end DSLRs and low end MFDBs)
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Christopher Hauser
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ziocan

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« Reply #182 on: August 06, 2009, 03:35:35 am »

Quote from: infocusinc
Didn't Michael do a similar comparison and reach a similar conclusion
Yes but Bernard would think that his d3x is even better than Caravaggio, why even bother with Canon or Sony.
He can stitch it to infinite resolutions beyond imagination.
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eronald

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« Reply #183 on: August 06, 2009, 10:52:31 am »

Quote from: ziocan
Yes but Bernard would think that his d3x is even better than Caravaggio, why even bother with Canon or Sony.
He can stitch it to infinite resolutions beyond imagination.

Somewhere over the rainbow ...
   


Edmund
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markowich

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« Reply #184 on: August 06, 2009, 02:22:36 pm »

Quote from: ziocan
Yes but Bernard would think that his d3x is even better than Caravaggio, why even bother with Canon or Sony.
He can stitch it to infinite resolutions beyond imagination.

there is no doubt that the D3x is the best DSLR out there, with the best low-medium-high iso files, but i cannot
see differences in prints when properly processed.
peter
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BernardLanguillier

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« Reply #185 on: August 07, 2009, 03:19:49 am »

Quote from: ziocan
Yes but Bernard would think that his d3x is even better than Caravaggio, why even bother with Canon or Sony.
He can stitch it to infinite resolutions beyond imagination.

I am just trying to help you gentlemen, how you use the information that I provide is up to you... I hope you'll forgive me if your customers reach the conclusion that fuzzy prints made from 60MP P65+ files are not worth the money.  

Cheers,
Bernard

tho_mas

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telyt

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« Reply #187 on: August 07, 2009, 01:40:05 pm »

Quote from: markowich
there is no doubt that the D3x is the best DSLR out there

Baloney.  "Best" needs to be qualified for the intended purpose.
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markowich

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« Reply #188 on: August 08, 2009, 05:33:21 am »

Quote from: telyt
Baloney.  "Best" needs to be qualified for the intended purpose.

by 'best' i mean 'unsurpassed in IQ, under every possible shooting condition'.
if you prefer canon or nikon lenses is -to some externd- a matter of taste.
but anyway, this is OT.
peter
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erick.boileau

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« Reply #189 on: August 08, 2009, 08:00:14 am »

I am not at all sure that Nikon D3X is the best camera @ f/16  (and 100 ISO) with pixel size = 5.9 µm
« Last Edit: August 08, 2009, 08:02:27 am by erick.boileau »
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Deep

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« Reply #190 on: August 08, 2009, 08:47:35 am »

Quote from: markowich
by 'best' i mean 'unsurpassed in IQ, under every possible shooting condition'.
if you prefer canon or nikon lenses is -to some externd- a matter of taste.
but anyway, this is OT.
peter

Off topic, but leading us neatly back.  The Leica S2 is a DSLR!  And I'd be amazed if it didn't surpass the D3x in many (not all) shooting conditions - which is surely the point of a camera like this!  Can I use a smiley face here?  

Don
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BernardLanguillier

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Leica S2 Pricing
« Reply #191 on: August 08, 2009, 10:28:29 am »

Quote from: Deep
Off topic, but leading us neatly back.  The Leica S2 is a DSLR!  And I'd be amazed if it didn't surpass the D3x in many (not all) shooting conditions - which is surely the point of a camera like this!  Can I use a smiley face here?

An interesting question is whether it is significantly better than the 1ds4 to be released in a few month at 1/3 the price... then the d4x will follow...

I would be very surprised if Leica were able to keep up with the pace of developement imposed by the Japanese companies... they have much larger team working much longer hours...

Cheers,
Bernard

eronald

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« Reply #192 on: August 08, 2009, 12:35:12 pm »

Give us a break. The S2 will be 400 ISO max reasonably @ F2.5 with single-point AF, a big sensor, superb lenses;  The D3x can do 8 images per second cropped when pushed, can do fast muti-point follow focusand shoots very well at 1600 Iso with an F1.4 lensor a 400mm . D3x vs S2 is is like comparing a heavy truck to a pickup: Don't compare.

For studio use, a budding fashion photographer might prefer to get a D3x and invest the rest in colombian supplies that keep models happy and ADs faithful  - advice given to me me by a would-be mentor which I'm passing on in the spirit in which it was given - as an ex-mathematician I found the ways of the fashion world quite mysterious

Edmund

Quote from: Deep
Off topic, but leading us neatly back.  The Leica S2 is a DSLR!  And I'd be amazed if it didn't surpass the D3x in many (not all) shooting conditions - which is surely the point of a camera like this!  Can I use a smiley face here?  

Don
« Last Edit: August 08, 2009, 12:36:41 pm by eronald »
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Christopher

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« Reply #193 on: August 08, 2009, 01:16:31 pm »

Quote from: eronald
Give us a break. The S2 will be 400 ISO max reasonably @ F2.5 with single-point AF, a big sensor, superb lenses;  The D3x can do 8 images per second cropped when pushed, can do fast muti-point follow focusand shoots very well at 1600 Iso with an F1.4 lensor a 400mm . D3x vs S2 is is like comparing a heavy truck to a pickup: Don't compare.

For studio use, a budding fashion photographer might prefer to get a D3x and invest the rest in colombian supplies that keep models happy and ADs faithful  - advice given to me me by a would-be mentor which I'm passing on in the spirit in which it was given - as an ex-mathematician I found the ways of the fashion world quite mysterious

Edmund


Well I hope not, because that would make the leica sensless. It must have a very clean ISO 800 and should hvae a good usable 1600. Why ? because even the P65 can do a very good ISO 400, so as ISO performance goes I'm expecting a lot more from the S2, or leica can pack their stuff and go home. I don't know about the d3x at high ISOs, but my 5dmk2 shines not at ISO 800, that is something a 1DsMk2 or 5d could do very well, it shines from 1600 and upwardes taking images when it really is dark.
« Last Edit: August 08, 2009, 01:16:58 pm by Christopher »
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Christopher Hauser
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telyt

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« Reply #194 on: August 08, 2009, 01:33:59 pm »

Quote from: markowich
by 'best' i mean 'unsurpassed in IQ, under every possible shooting condition'.

Your initial statement that "there is no doubt" is a bit of a stretch.  Some who use both the D3x and the Leica DMR prefer the overall image quality of the DMR, while acknowledging the higher pixel count and more accurate colors of the D3x.  You'll have to narrow your definition of image quality a bit more.  Pixel count?  Yup, lots of pixels.  Color accuracy?  Yup, pretty good.  Overall image quality?  Hmmm... there are some who will disagree with you.
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telyt

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« Reply #195 on: August 08, 2009, 01:36:10 pm »

Quote from: eronald
Give us a break. The S2 will be 400 ISO max

I don't think we've seen specs or test results yet.
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Dan Wells

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« Reply #196 on: August 08, 2009, 02:09:27 pm »

One thing that would be really useful in comparing image qualities (as a previous poster said,  too bad we can't post prints here - ANY of these cameras will look the same in a JPEG online) would be to have some place where really experienced users of each camera could gather, work with the same subjects (a range of them), and compare results. The people posting about very positive D3x results here (largely Bernard and myself) have thousands of shots on their D3x bodies, and are getting stunning results. Could I get the same results out of an Alpha 900 (that I've never really used, and that I have no idea how to handle the files from) that I get after 10,000 shots on my D3x - no! Could an Alpha 900 shooter with equal experience? I have no idea, and that test has never been done. The only meaningful way to really measure image quality among cameras like these that are ALL very good is to get a bunch of us together (with similar subject preferences), experienced on different systems, each with his or her own camera and favorite lenses, and work on similar subjects in the same place, then compare large (24x36 or larger) prints off the same printer. We've gone beyond where weeklong tests can tell us much - it takes months or years to learn how to obtain the best quality from any of these systems, and I'm confident that the systems are all so good at this point that any given photographer will make their best image with their own camera - whatever differences there are will show only when the person using each camera knows it and is comfortable with it.

A dream test/conclave would include Nikon (D3x), Canon(5D2 and 1Ds4 when it comes out), Sony (Alpha 900), a couple of resolutions of Phase including the P65+, Hasselblad (the H3DII/50 plus at least one of the lower resolution options), and the S2. A wide variety of converters and other software would be available, including all of the manufacturer converters plus Capture One Pro (Phase's converter does very well with Nikon and I've heard Sony as well), Lightroom/Camera Raw, Raw Developer and perhaps others. Any of the recent printers would work (Canon 6100 or 8100, Epson 7900 or 9900, or HP Z3200), as long as someone was on hand who knew the printer, and could advise photographers who usually printed with something else. Ideally, we'd have several shooters per system, because the needs and experience of, say a landscape photographer will be quite different from a studio shooter. I don't imagine we'd come up with an overall winner, but rather a collection of strengths and weaknesses for each system.

I have no idea who would set up and finance such a test... I can't imagine Photo Techniques or any other publication read by the right audience has the money to get this together. Could it work as a workshop of some sort? Would the manufacturers or dealers be able to bury the hatchet long enough to contribute - for that matter, is there some dealer who represents all the manufacturers who would be interested in helping out?

                        -Dan



                                                             -Dan
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James R Russell

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« Reply #197 on: August 08, 2009, 02:16:56 pm »

Quote from: Christopher
Well I hope not, because that would make the leica sensless. It must have a very clean ISO 800 and should hvae a good usable 1600. Why ? because even the P65 can do a very good ISO 400, so as ISO performance goes I'm expecting a lot more from the S2, or leica can pack their stuff and go home. I don't know about the d3x at high ISOs, but my 5dmk2 shines not at ISO 800, that is something a 1DsMk2 or 5d could do very well, it shines from 1600 and upwardes taking images when it really is dark.

Perception and reality are way different, though in the world of take photos for clients perception makes a difference.

If anyone feels laying out two Leicas on a magliner will get them more props, then maybe it's a wise investment, but probably the only clients that will impressed with the brand of camera will probably be not the best type of client.  In this business, two days later when the web gallaries are delivered it's about the image, not the camera, even for the easily impressed client.

Medium format has always kind of skirted the issue of high iso for a long time.

I assume because they are limited to buying their sensors off the shelf from Dalsaland or Kodakland.

This was ok, well almost ok, when the world was 300 dpi traditional print,  dslrs were limited to filling a page without interpolation and the standard lighting source were thousands of watts of flash.

Now more and more projects require motion imagery in the same style of the stills and that means continuous light sources, the ability to pull focus and have a high shutter speed and with any larger sensor  still camera that won't go to a clean
800 iso is going to put a strain on holding focus, depth of field and just the ability to do the job.

I do a lot of stills to motion, motion to stills, motion and still projects and I can tell you there is as of today no perfect camera, or no perfect combination system.

For the still photographer, a autofocus 15 to 20mpx camera that shoots 24 fps and each frame is good enough for a high quality still would be the answer and not really the photographer's answer but the client's answer.

God, clients would fall over backwards if such a camera existed and even if you shoot the motion in a separate session, before or after the stills, just having one lighting soultion, one camera would be perfect.

Today it's either a combo cam, or a RED along with some kind of still camera to accomplish this and even if you have to use two systems it makes a world of difference to use continuous light vs. flash.

I've done projects where we turn on the flash, shoot a session, turn on the hmi or tungsten and shoot the same or kind of the same session in motion, but hanging two sets of lights with the same look and style in the same place is a chore and though it's possible, it ain't easy.

In todays economy where we usually work at breakneck speed this becomes even more difficult.

Ok, now I know the response to this post will be "I'm a still photographer, I'll never shoot video or motion" and that may be true, though limited, but even if you as a "still" photographer will never own or operate a motion camera, soon if not already your clients will have a dedicated
crew for motion and if you can't complete both in the same setting your adding costs and adding costs does not go over big in 2009.

Also running two crews means somebody is going to get the short end of the stick.  Either the still guy/girl or the motion crew is going to be fighting for territory and that rarely works out.

In the past it was not unheard of for the video crew to be the secondary behind the scenes guy and for that it kind of worked, but today, nobody cares as much about behind the scenes as having the same look in two mediums and we're now seeing the priorities change.

The stills are carrying less weight that the motion imagery so it's not hard to fathom that soon stills might be relegated to the B camera status, which is not a position any of us want to find ourselves in.

Nobody wants to be the still guy with a Nikon or Leica around their neck that is whistled in to shoot a few frames after the A crew with the RED or an Arriflex has completed their session.

Even if the term motion or video did not exist, working with continuous light sources is twice as fast as working with flash.  Flash is math, continuous is wysiwyg, or pretty close to it.

Now I also know that somebody is going to say "my p30+ Phamiya does 800 iso very clean" and in some instances that's true, though your always one stop down due to format size.  What pulls focus at F5.6 125th of second with a dslr requires twice the light volume with even a cropped
medium format camera to get the same effect.

Also digital is very scene/lighting specific.  What has minimal noise with direct light and light to medium toned backgrounds can become a snowstorm with black low key subjects at the same iso.

I've shot my p30+ at 800 iso on high key soft light imagery that works fine and the noise is minimal, I've also shot the next day on black or low key lighting at the same iso and it was almost unusable without a lot of post work, masks, etc.

So for the S-2 to make any impact it has to have high iso, it has to have fast autofocus and it has to work in a variety of situations, because it's not a $3,000 dlsr, you use as a backup or some of the time,  it's a $50,000 guess I can't buy the new Audi type of investment.

As every still photographer says, they would love to see the S2 succeed, me included, but when the rubber hits the road at the end of the day it's not about the camera, it's about getting the job done and not losing 75 hours in post produciton to make a usable image, or worse drop the 50k and find the camera sitting in a case for most of the day.

JR


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lisa_r

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« Reply #198 on: August 08, 2009, 03:29:55 pm »

re:
"Ok, now I know the response to this post will be "I'm a still photographer, I'll never shoot video or motion" and that may be true, though limited,"

The one time I have ever been asked about a specific camera by a client was last week - they are a major ad agency and do TV and print advertising work for some of the most expensive residences in the world (NY, Dubai, London...) and they called me BECAUSE they know I have a 5D2 and they like the camera. And there *may* be some need for video footage. (They also asked me if I had shot with the Red...) I have been on set with them in the past and they were using six-figure motion picture cameras and huge crews, and here they are calling me because of my little old 5D2. It's funny, but true.
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AndreNapier

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« Reply #199 on: August 08, 2009, 03:49:44 pm »

Quote from: markowich
there is no doubt that the D3x is the best DSLR out there, with the best low-medium-high iso files, but i cannot
see differences in prints when properly processed.
peter

Peter
Do you shoot strobes? with D3x.
I bought the camera with a hope to give it some use side by side with my AptusAFi/Rz. The color results I am getting are horrible and render it unusable as compared to Aptus. I try all WB options, shooting MacBeth or gray card. Equal disaster. I tried P1 software and Nikon one. No help.
More than that even trying to tweek it in post I can get it anywhere close to what I like.
The camera shines with tungsten or daylight. I will be happy with it if it could work in the studio.
Furthermore even the lowest setting on Grafit packs is too much light without huge softboxes.
Any thoughts, help - anybody?
Andre Napier
http://AndreNapier.com


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