Leica S2 Pricing

[markowich]

Peter
Do you shoot strobes? with D3x.
I bought the camera with a hope to give it some use side by side with my AptusAFi/Rz. The color results I am getting are horrible and render it unusable as compared to Aptus. I try all WB options, shooting MacBeth or gray card. Equal disaster. I tried P1 software and Nikon one. No help.
More than that even trying to tweek it in post I can get it anywhere close to what I like.
The camera shines with tungsten or daylight. I will be happy with it if it could work in the studio.
Furthermore even the lowest setting on Grafit packs is too much light without huge softboxes.
Any thoughts, help - anybody?
Andre Napier
http://AndreNapier.com

andre,
i have no experience with strobes-i should have excluded them from the beginning of the discussion. i assume the MF backs do much better there.
but i was just trying to compare DSLR, i.e. canon-nikon-sony.
i do appreciate the qualities of medium format, particularly phase and hasselblad. i have a H3DII-50 and the P65+ will be arriving next week,
to be used on alpa...and maybe on my old H1. back to TO, i just cannot get myself to believe that the S2 can compete with either system.
peter

[Deep]

Give us a break. The S2 will be 400 ISO max reasonably @ F2.5 with single-point AF, a big sensor, superb lenses;  The D3x can do 8 images per second cropped when pushed, can do fast muti-point follow focusand shoots very well at 1600 Iso with an F1.4 lensor a 400mm . D3x vs S2 is is like comparing a heavy truck to a pickup: Don't compare.

For studio use, a budding fashion photographer might prefer to get a D3x and invest the rest in colombian supplies that keep models happy and ADs faithful  - advice given to me me by a would-be mentor which I'm passing on in the spirit in which it was given - as an ex-mathematician I found the ways of the fashion world quite mysterious

Edmund

You can have a break if you want.  Please take one.  You don't know what ASA/ISO the S2 will be good at.  Besides, it doesn't matter.  You can't put it in the same pile as other medium format cameras because it has its own format.  Remember, it has virtually the same pixel density as your loved D3X except fifty percent more, with (we expect) lenses that make the most of that.  Therefore, in many (again, not all) cases, including what I might shoot often, it promises to be significantly better.  Obviously.

Like many, I virtually never shoot 8, 5 or even one shot per second.  My photos are considered, composed and taken.  I rarely use more than 800ASA.  Those machine gun statistics are of little interest to me.  Actually, I prefer the Sony 900 to the D3X (shock, horror).  A marginal hit on ultimate image quality except the lens part of the equation makes that academic but much nicer to hold, carry and use.  The S2, well, who has used one to even judge?

Don

[markowich]

You can have a break if you want.  Please take one.  You don't know what ASA/ISO the S2 will be good at.  Besides, it doesn't matter.  You can't put it in the same pile as other medium format cameras because it has its own format.  Remember, it has virtually the same pixel density as your loved D3X except fifty percent more, with (we expect) lenses that make the most of that.  Therefore, in many (again, not all) cases, including what I might shoot often, it promises to be significantly better.  Obviously.

Like many, I virtually never shoot 8, 5 or even one shot per second.  My photos are considered, composed and taken.  I rarely use more than 800ASA.  Those machine gun statistics are of little interest to me.  Actually, I prefer the Sony 900 to the D3X (shock, horror).  A marginal hit on ultimate image quality except the lens part of the equation makes that academic but much nicer to hold, carry and use.  The S2, well, who has used one to even judge?

Don

no need of live view either? maybe for focusing with TS lenses? or multi point AF? do you really find the 'zeiss for sony' lenses better than their nikon counterparts?
peter

[eronald]

Indeed, Don, you average truck driver is not going to find much use for the speed and flexibility of a pickup -

As for arguing about the size and weight of the D3x, well guess what? I'm on your side, the thing is about as large as it can be and still remain portable.

Edmund

You can have a break if you want.  Please take one.  You don't know what ASA/ISO the S2 will be good at.  Besides, it doesn't matter.  You can't put it in the same pile as other medium format cameras because it has its own format.  Remember, it has virtually the same pixel density as your loved D3X except fifty percent more, with (we expect) lenses that make the most of that.  Therefore, in many (again, not all) cases, including what I might shoot often, it promises to be significantly better.  Obviously.

Like many, I virtually never shoot 8, 5 or even one shot per second.  My photos are considered, composed and taken.  I rarely use more than 800ASA.  Those machine gun statistics are of little interest to me.  Actually, I prefer the Sony 900 to the D3X (shock, horror).  A marginal hit on ultimate image quality except the lens part of the equation makes that academic but much nicer to hold, carry and use.  The S2, well, who has used one to even judge?

Don

[Deep]

Indeed, Don, you average truck driver is not going to find much use for the speed and flexibility of a pickup -

As for arguing about the size and weight of the D3x, well guess what? I'm on your side, the thing is about as large as it can be and still remain portable.

Edmund

Well said, Edmund.  And, actually, I use a small car and a four wheel drive, just as I use different cameras for different uses.  You know, perfection brings weight and cost, which isn't perfection.  And so the circle goes round.

To Peter, I had the first live view DSLR (the Olympus E330) and still have a live view DSLR.  I use it but not much.  I've got a point and shoot which only has live view.  I don't really care that much but do hate viewfinders which don't show the scene accurately, which includes SLRs which don't show 100%.  To some people live view is a deal breaker, to others it's a gimmick.  Most of us are in the middle somewhere!

I've used a few Nikon lenses and not liked them but I know they make good ones too.  I've used three of the better Sony/Zeiss lenses and loved them but have personal experience of some really bad optics in that mount too.  So, yes, I've found Sony better but I would be naive to say that sample makes Sony better overall!  Heading back on topic, I just wondered how Leica will fare with the new lenses.  My understanding is that they concentrate on features other than absolute resolution (eveness across the frame, contrast, rendition of out-of-focus areas and so on).  Will we have more internet threads slamming them when they come out?  Perfection doesn't come easily.

Don.

[John Camp]

One of the things that I've heard about the D3x and to some extent the 1DsIII is that you'll not get the full benefit of the resolution if you shoot hand-held, because hand-held is inherently unstable enough that you'll lose some degree of sharpness. (Notice that I say "some degree" of sharpness -- not that they'd be blurred or unusable.) If that is the case, wouldn't the Leica have the same problem, and wouldn't that reduce the advantage of this system? (This is a real question -- I don't know the answer.)

If that is the case, and if you need basically to shoot the Leica on a tripod to take advantage of its benefits, then don't you lose the advantage of its form-factor as well?

JC

[eronald]

Yes, this is one of the thing one learns with digital MF: If you use natural light, you need hi-Iso or else your handheld shots are blurred. Of course shooters here care less because they use studio flash. I'd say they would still profit from Hi-Iso if they do location work because every stop ISO means less rental fees and easier transportation and setup for lights.

Edmund

One of the things that I've heard about the D3x and to some extent the 1DsIII is that you'll not get the full benefit of the resolution if you shoot hand-held, because hand-held is inherently unstable enough that you'll lose some degree of sharpness. (Notice that I say "some degree" of sharpness -- not that they'd be blurred or unusable.) If that is the case, wouldn't the Leica have the same problem, and wouldn't that reduce the advantage of this system? (This is a real question -- I don't know the answer.)

If that is the case, and if you need basically to shoot the Leica on a tripod to take advantage of its benefits, then don't you lose the advantage of its form-factor as well?

JC

[heinrichvoelkel]

Not to beat a dead horse, but does anybody know anything about the announced service packages? I couldn't find anything on the web...

[lowep]

Yes, this is one of the thing one learns with digital MF: If you use natural light, you need hi-Iso or else your handheld shots are blurred. Of course shooters here care less because they use studio flash. I'd say they would still profit from Hi-Iso if they do location work because every stop ISO means less rental fees and easier transportation and setup for lights.

Edmund

WHY (he screams!) are shots with digital capture more likely to be blurred if you shoot hand held in natural light than shooting at the same ISO in the same conditions with film?

I have experienced this myself but so far have not found any good explanation about why this happens.

Why doesn't Leica/Canon/Phase/Hasselblad print a warning about this in the instruction manual alongside the usual instructions about not putting the camera in a microwave and not disposing of the batteries in the campfire?  

If this question is not appropriate here please move it to the appropriate place.

[Deep]

WHY (he screams!) are shots with digital capture more likely to be blurred if you shoot hand held in natural light than shooting at the same ISO in the same conditions with film?

I have experienced this myself but so far have not found any good explanation about why this happens.

I'm guessing but I'd say they aren't more blurred, just we used to look at slides on a light table with a loupe, not magnified down to the level of one grain of film!  Now, if camera shake is more than half a pixel (a tiny amount) we see it on screen at "100%".  I may eat my hat if you could prove a difference in a normal print!

Don.

[lisa_r]

Lowep, Don is right, I'm sure it's the magnification when checking things out in Photoshop that's throwing you off. Think about it: looking at a 22mp image at 100% view as rendered on your 72 dpi monitor is like looking at a 6.5' print from 12" away. Ever done that with film? It's not pretty, and you would see just as much blur as you see with digital - but likely the GRAIN would mask some of it. The way we used to check images with a loupe does not compare to the scrutiny of 100 viewing on an LCD screen.

[eronald]

WHY (he screams!) are shots with digital capture more likely to be blurred if you shoot hand held in natural light than shooting at the same ISO in the same conditions with film?

I have experienced this myself but so far have not found any good explanation about why this happens.

Why doesn't Leica/Canon/Phase/Hasselblad print a warning about this in the instruction manual alongside the usual instructions about not putting the camera in a microwave and not disposing of the batteries in the campfire?  

If this question is not appropriate here please move it to the appropriate place.

No one knows why. CPS in Paris used to advise sports shooters to shoot 2 stops higher speed to get equivalently sharp images for 8x10 magazine use.

As to why consumers aren't warned - that's pretty obvious - an ISO 100 base sports camera is not that much use if it has to be treated like an ISO 25 in the real world.

But ... rest assured the Leica *will* be better

Edmund

[gwhitf]

http://www.pdnpulse.com/2009/09/seal-heart...e-leica-s2.html

Leica's found their slice of the market here.

Wonder if he leased his?

What a joke.

All he needs now is a sweater wrapped around his shoulders, with the arms tied into a knot, and he'd be ready. He's already donned the safari jacket.

[ziocan]

http://www.pdnpulse.com/2009/09/seal-heart...e-leica-s2.html

Leica's found their slice of the market here.

Wonder if he leased his?

What a joke.

All he needs now is a sweater wrapped around his shoulders, with the arms tied into a knot, and he'd be ready. He's already donned the safari jacket.

being jealous?

wait until you know what kind of car he drives or he is taken around with, jet he charters or art work worth 6/7 figures is hanging on his homes walls.

an S2 is just pocket money for people like that, why do you even bother?

[pschefz]

http://www.pdnpulse.com/2009/09/seal-heart...e-leica-s2.html

Leica's found their slice of the market here.

Wonder if he leased his?

What a joke.

All he needs now is a sweater wrapped around his shoulders, with the arms tied into a knot, and he'd be ready. He's already donned the safari jacket.

seal actually really happens to be a huge camera geek....i have seen him at samys several times....and he has been a leica fan for a long time.....i don't think they had to force him and i am sure they would not be able to afford him anyway.....so he got a S2...everybody is happy....

but there is an obvious joke there...the camera for dentists and for entertainers whose music plays at the gap.....

but seriously, i have liked his music for ever and although i have no personal experience working with him, i have heard nothing but good things about him (and her actually as well....)....i am just jealous i don't have a S2....

[eronald]

Here's the crowd at Leica shop Paris at the M9 launch.

Edmund

seal actually really happens to be a huge camera geek....i have seen him at samys several times....and he has been a leica fan for a long time.....i don't think they had to force him and i am sure they would not be able to afford him anyway.....so he got a S2...everybody is happy....

but there is an obvious joke there...the camera for dentists and for entertainers whose music plays at the gap.....

but seriously, i have liked his music for ever and although i have no personal experience working with him, i have heard nothing but good things about him (and her actually as well....)....i am just jealous i don't have a S2....

[BobDavid]

Here's the crowd at Leica shop Paris at the M9 launch.

Edmund

Nice shot, Edmund.

[yaya]

The male equivalent of cooing over the newborn.

But why do they all look so sad?

To me they look like they're admiring the (3 yr) old iMac...

[pcunite]

I have not seen one image taken with the S2... but I have seen an S2 image taken with a celebrity! The market for the camera is for the top 10% that is now very apparent. The Leica S2 is not a tool priced for professional use... unless you use diamond encrusted hammers to drive nails...

I am sure it will be a fine camera. Just not sure why the need to exclude the other 90% of those who would make use of this system. They are not taking the time to market to the reqular guys with little features here and there and language that they speak. And please don't try to say that only the most interested in image quality need apply. We have the Phase P65+ now. That is the best thing going... not the S2.

[bcooter]

Leica's found their slice of the market here.

This really isn't an example of a bad idea, it's just not well thought out execution.

The PR photo and the copy that goes with it  doesn't do anyone justice.

Seal is a wonderfully nice man, and a passionate, good photographer.

I'm not a celebrity type of guy, but I know him, have spent time with him, talk to him with some regularity and he really does love photography and though this PR photo kind of looks cheesy, it  isn't reflective of the person or the talent and I promise you at his pay grade, a free camera isn't that high on the list.

He does love the Leicas, has about every m lens made, visits their factory when on tour and if anything was probably just helping them out.

If it was just for PR or money, there are much larger brands he could lend his name to.

Still this is an example of just rushing out any PR and advertising without a lot of thought.  If it was planned and they allowed Seal or anyone that could/would use this camera to shoot some pretty images, it would have a lot more validity and not come across the way it did.

I am always amazed at how poorly specialty cameras companies market and advertise.  If you ever saw that silver brochure with the article on Arthur Elgort and the dmr you'd never dream of buying a Leica, which is a shame and once again it's  not indicative of the talent.

I know from Seal's photography, you could make a coffee table book of images he has produced with all types of m series cameras and that should have been the message, not this PR image.

BC