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BernardLanguillier

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Leica S2 Pricing
« Reply #100 on: July 31, 2009, 10:10:26 pm »

Quote from: hcubell
BTW, if the S2 had a 60mp chip, I think the S2 would be viewed as much better value than the 37.5mp model Leica is now selling for $23,000, even if it cost $10,000 more. Again, look at the P65 price and the price of the forthcoming Hasselblad 60mp H3D. No one seems to be freaking over those prices.

Many people obviously are freaking over those prices. If the P65+ were 15.000 US$ - a huge amount of money for a camera still - I would be shooting with one and tens of thousands of photographers would be as well (providing it had in back live view that is to say...).

Cheers,
Bernard
« Last Edit: July 31, 2009, 10:20:53 pm by BernardLanguillier »
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rainer_v

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« Reply #101 on: July 31, 2009, 11:13:33 pm »

Quote from: BernardLanguillier
Many people obviously are freaking over those prices. If the P65+ were 15.000 US$ - a huge amount of money for a camera still - I would be shooting with one and tens of thousands of photographers would be as well (providing it had in back live view that is to say...).

Cheers,
Bernard
wait a bit and you`ll get it for this price....
the time where it made sense to run out and to buy the newest hottest stuff is over, at least if taking a rational view to the tools.
« Last Edit: July 31, 2009, 11:13:53 pm by rainer_v »
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telyt

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« Reply #102 on: August 01, 2009, 12:06:53 am »

Quote from: BernardLanguillier
Many people obviously are freaking over those prices. If the P65+ were 15.000 US$ - a huge amount of money for a camera still - I would be shooting with one and tens of thousands of photographers would be as well (providing it had in back live view that is to say...).

Cheers,
Bernard

So would I, if it were weather-sealed, as responsive as a DSLR and had long lenses adequate to the P65's sampling rate.
« Last Edit: August 01, 2009, 12:07:40 am by telyt »
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pschefz

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« Reply #103 on: August 01, 2009, 12:38:12 am »

Quote from: BernardLanguillier
Many people obviously are freaking over those prices. If the P65+ were 15.000 US$ - a huge amount of money for a camera still - I would be shooting with one and tens of thousands of photographers would be as well (providing it had in back live view that is to say...).

Cheers,
Bernard


i am not so sure that there would be THAT many more people getting it....for someone who needs it, the price really does not matter and for all others i would recommend working with files like that...just from one shoot....60mpix is my biggest nightmare.....the storage alone....5-10gb 16 layered tiffs....no thanks.....

i never got into digital to get the highest end toy every year....i had to do that for a long time simply because the highest end was barely good enough to compare to 35mm or later 645 film.....once the quality hit 6x7 film i was happy to stop that nonsense....plus at that time, other things happened.....the ability to shoot 6x7 film quality at several frames/sec (if i wanted to) in a way smaller package (then my old fuji 680) and up to 1200iso (if i wanted to)....

of course the S2 would be a much better deal if it did 60mpix.....that resolution IS a real step up.......but i know what would make it sell...usable 1200 or 1600 from DMF and a real DSLR like AF with 16 focus points...and actually: faster lenses.....schneider has much faster lenses covering a much larger area and the are the ones to beat....maybe that is the problem with the S2....it does everything...hopefully well....but nothing really so much better.....

anyway...all this is a mute discussion anyway....we have no clue if the thing actually works, if the files even compare to a P40 andwe really won't know any of that until the whole system ships...which is in 4 months....i can't wait to see what fun things will be announced by then and how the S2 will look compared to those toys....
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leicaman94044

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« Reply #104 on: August 01, 2009, 01:04:15 am »

Quote from: hcubell
BTW, if the S2 had a 60mp chip, I think the S2 would be viewed as much better value than the 37.5mp model Leica is now selling for $23,000, even if it cost $10,000 more. Again, look at the P65 price and the price of the forthcoming Hasselblad 60mp H3D. No one seems to be freaking over those prices.

I think you're missing a few points here, Howard.  
The S2 is as closed a system as it gets and several of the few lenses "scheduled" to be released will not be released until next year.  There are dozens of new AND used lenses available with or without adapters for all current existing MF digital cameras.  Many of these are available (used) at very reasonable prices.  You can't say that for the S2.

The P65 can also be used on view cameras.  And with respect to the Hasselblad also being a closed system; at least one can upgrade the back if and when new technologies emerge enabling cleaner high iso shooting, wider dynamic range or any number of other improvements which may (or may not) appear in the next couple years.  With the Leica you are stuck with that 37 megapixel sensor for the life of the body.  

Leica is so confident about the reliability of this camera (and lenses) that they are offering "premium" service contracts at inflated prices.  What does this do for those who don't purchase such contracts?  It moves them to the back of the line... a fine "thank you" for those who didn't shell out the additional thousands for the premium camera coverage or many hundreds for the lens coverage.  Who are the fools who came up with this policy?  

Mamiya, Phase, Hasselblad etc don't have to go back to Solms to be serviced.  Leica does.  I had an APO lens go back to Solms (after Leica NJ reassembled it improperly after a cleaning) three times for a total of 14 months before they got it right.  The second time they mounted the tripod collar on the lens in such a way that I couldn't shoot the lens from a horizontal position when it was tripod mounted!  And it left Solms this way!

All of the other MF systems are proven and available for rental across the country. There is nothing remotely similar about the S2.  

Sorry my friend.  We're talking an impossible uphill battle for an unproven, grotesquely overpriced system that is too little, too late and for way too much money.

Finally, is it in Leica's interest to be known as the maker of a camera that can only be purchased by Sheiks and investment bankers?  Is that what this has all degenerated to?
« Last Edit: August 01, 2009, 01:30:58 am by leicaman94044 »
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PHOTO ZARA

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« Reply #105 on: August 01, 2009, 03:59:44 am »


my deepest condolences to S2

hopefully not to M9


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gwhitf

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« Reply #106 on: August 01, 2009, 05:53:34 am »

Quote from: erick.boileau
Hasselblad and RED must be very happy :-)

I disagree.

I think this announcement by Leica throws a taint over the entire Medium Format segment -- Phase and Hasselblad included -- and just pushes newcomers toward the 35DSLR options. It's just one more log in the fire to make people think that Medium Format is not responding to the needs of photographers.

Here you've got weird news about Sinar; F&H biting the dust; Leaf being bought at a Yard Sale; and only two Medium Format players still standing. And now, the crazy mentality of Leica.

It helps no one in the Medium Format segment. It only sends them running to Canon and Nikon, where a top-notch camera body, (with LiveView and HD Video) can be purchased for the same amount of money as a Leica S2 Service Contract. When you see the price on that Service Contract, it doesn't give you the WarmFuzzies about Leica reliability, does it? And when the reaction to the pricing makes the company panic and run to their PR Company and draft a White Paper of Talking Points to counter all outrage, you just know there's Trouble brewing, and the vultures are circling:

http://tinyurl.com/mwlbbk
« Last Edit: August 01, 2009, 09:15:28 am by gwhitf »
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laughingbear

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« Reply #107 on: August 01, 2009, 06:17:51 am »

Most fascinating strategy Leica comes up with. Anticyclical marketing may be? <grins>

I shot with Sinar, now Phase one, and own a Sony (If someone would have told me that 2 years ago, I would have laughed). Yes, the Dalsa and Kodak Files are better, beyond any doubts, then again, if I look at prints made from Sony/Zeiss, honestly, I am a happy camper because I have to take into account what TCO burden I have on my shoulders.

A year ago or so Michael wrote something about the gap closing, and I think this will be more true in the very near future, so I can not but wonder, whether this shake up in the market, and the anticyclic move of leica points towards more than only a temporary shake up. Canon, Nikon and Sony with thier flagships have a very solid, assumingly growing marketshare. The MFDB market is very small, and naturally people start to wonder about TCO, particulary in the times ahead.

I am with Rainer on most points in that respect, a MK4 and others will close the gap even further and I would think that already small market for MF will shrink more. Will it shrink to a point where it does not make economical sense anymore to produce MFDB's?
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laughingbear

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« Reply #108 on: August 01, 2009, 06:29:59 am »

Quote from: leicaman94044
Leica is so confident about the reliability of this camera (and lenses) that they are offering "premium" service contracts at inflated prices.  What does this do for those who don't purchase such contracts?  It moves them to the back of the line... a fine "thank you" for those who didn't shell out the additional thousands for the premium camera coverage or many hundreds for the lens coverage.  Who are the fools who came up with this policy?

Yup, utterly insane!

My expensive insurance covers more for a fraction of their package cost. I can not think of anyone with their heads screwed on to purchase these premium contracts.

Ah well, as you said, their prosective clients list and pre orders must be located in the land of camels and oil. Only with such clients as purchasers they can succeed, and they do not care about ir bugs, probably are not even aware about it when they shoot oil rigs from the back of their camels. LOL

The whole thing is turning into a joke, starting with their mouthfull about equal quality to 50MP and ending with their premium contract. Looks like one of these marketing yuppies had a line too many.
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AlDoori

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« Reply #109 on: August 01, 2009, 07:25:09 am »

Quote from: leicaman94044
Leica is so confident about the reliability of this camera (and lenses) that they are offering "premium" service contracts at inflated prices.  What does this do for those who don't purchase such contracts?  It moves them to the back of the line... a fine "thank you" for those who didn't shell out the additional thousands for the premium camera coverage or many hundreds for the lens coverage.  Who are the fools who came up with this policy?
nobody has to buy the camera or the service contract.
btw "The Hasselblad Camera Care Plan" is not very different, no?
http://www.hasselblad.de/service--support/...-care-plan.aspx
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Quentin

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« Reply #110 on: August 01, 2009, 07:49:20 am »

Quote from: AlDoori
nobody has to buy the camera or the service contract.
btw "The Hasselblad Camera Care Plan" is not very different, no?
http://www.hasselblad.de/service--support/...-care-plan.aspx

But that's the point: they won't at those prices.

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eronald

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« Reply #111 on: August 01, 2009, 11:27:55 am »

You're being a bit optimistic here, Bernard.

Edmund

Quote from: BernardLanguillier
I bet you a good belgian beer that nobody will be able to tell the different on an A2 print between a D3x+Nikkor AF-S 1.4 and the S2+Summarit-S 1:2.5/80 at f2.8.

Cheers,
Bernard
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John Camp

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« Reply #112 on: August 01, 2009, 12:07:16 pm »

Another aspect of this whole thing is the continuing development of software (and firmware) camera and lens "correction" tools. I don't think we're anywhere near the end of that process. The pride of the Leica system isn't really the sensor, it's the DSLR-like body and the lenses. Everybody keeps talking about the lenses, and how good they will be. But it seems to me that if you start with an excellent lens like a Nikon or Canon pro-grade, it's conceivable that a D3x image could be "corrected" to emulate almost anything produced by "the best" lenses from Leica. All we're really talking about is data.

When Bernard says he doesn't think you'll be able to see a difference between a FF and MF system at A2 or whatever, well, you may be able to see a difference in an unadjusted image on-screen at 200% now, but nobody using these high-end machines is really peddling unadjusted images. What about the "adjusted" ones, as the software gets better and better? The gap now is narrow. I suspect software is going to make it much narrower -- help the lower IQ photos more than the high-IQ shots -- and at some point, fairly soon, the gap will become so narrow that nobody will care.
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leicaman94044

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« Reply #113 on: August 01, 2009, 12:08:12 pm »

Quote from: AlDoori
nobody has to buy the camera or the service contract.
btw "The Hasselblad Camera Care Plan" is not very different, no?

Al,
If you are a working pro who is doing a high budget/high paying gig you have no choice but to buy the service plan.  There won't be lots of available S2's in rental departments of pro camera stores so you won't be able to run out and rent one while your camera is sitting in a long cue in Solms.  You'll have to have two bodies for starters... if you don't want to be caught with your pants down when the s___ hits the fan.  

Many who might be considering the S2, if smart, will be embracing a "wait and see" perspective before purchasing as they'll want to see if this thing is really going to perform as advertised (as well as allow time for the few pro dealers to stock their rental departments with the necessary S2 cameras and lenses).  By the time this all sorts itself out there will be improvements in sensor technology that will make the S2 less and less interesting.  This is inevitable.  The only thing that is debatable is the amount of time before sensor technology moves Leica's S2 sensor to the back of the pack.  At that time you'll be stuck with a body that may be more ergonomic than the competition at the cost of having inferior image capture capabilities, and that will only get worse with time since the sensor is a permanent part of the camera (unlike the existing competition).

Lawrence  

« Last Edit: August 01, 2009, 12:14:09 pm by leicaman94044 »
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psorantin

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« Reply #114 on: August 01, 2009, 12:57:57 pm »

You folks are somehow funny;

If one takes all of these comments very literal, the combined message is:

- Any manufactuerer out there: Please don't develop any new system, since Canon and Nikon is the end of all
- Since whatever that new system will be or do, we have already other bodies and lenses.

Its the classical behavior of tactical, transaction oriented thinking; with "transaction" I mean just looking at the incremental cost of buying a new camera and using that as decision point; rather than pulling the lens back in terms of your overall situation. My point is actually unrelated to Leica's S2.

I describe you my situation:
- I have a Canon 5D-II and a good selection of Canon L glass, system value approx. 10k
- I have a Hassy 503cw and Aptus back, and Zeiss glass; system value approx. 6k today
- I have a Mamiya7, two lenses, system maybe worth 3k.

If I would go for a S2, I would considering selling all three systems mentioned above, which might provide funds of at least 15k.
I would evaluate a purchasing decision for a S2 on that basis - incremental cost over funds from divesting other systems, reduction in complexity of camera hardware and raw software. That creates a different economical picture.

Whether the S2 is the camera that would allow me to do that, is a different question; ISO performance would probably be my main concern; autofocus speed would not be a concern based on what I photograph; camera handling would be important; service turnaround time would be a concern. Streamlining systems would be a significant advantage. Yes, platform risk would be a factor to be considered.  Etc. etc.

Aren't a lot of the comments made here of the kind of typical "nay-sayers" :-)

Peter
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Dan Wells

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« Reply #115 on: August 01, 2009, 01:37:29 pm »

I'm with Bernard on the indistinguishable at A2 (16x24 inches) possibility - notably, we're both D3x users who know what that camera can really do... I make 24x36 inch prints from the D3x all the time (high detail landscape), and am extremely satisfied with the results. I'm NOT saying that the D3x is indistinguishable from a P65+ at a very large enlargement - clearly, it isn't. It might well be up to A2, and then distinguishable, but still more than good enough, up to 24x36 inches - beyond that, you want really high-res MFDB for close inspection. Since nobody has yet seen large printed output from the S2, we can't be sure, but I'm imagining "D3x class", maybe a little better, rather than "P65+ class". It will probably have a best print size of 30x45 inches, where the D3x is good to 24x36, and the really top DMF systems seem to exceed 36x48 even on high-detail subjects (the rule for the best sensors seems to be that they can print in inches roughly the sensor size in mm on very high detail subjects). Is it really worth paying 3 times as much for the body and lenses, and having a choice of 4 lenses instead of 20+ (I know Nikon claims 60ish lenses, but many of those don't belong on a D3x) for a similar type of camera that only prints a little bigger? The full-fledged MF systems offer accessories (HTS adapter) and/or flexibility (mounting a Phase back on a view camera) that DSLRs, including the S2, can't match, and they do it with entry prices much less than the S2. DSLRs offer tilt/shift lenses to gain some of the flexibility of the HTS or view camera mounting, and Leica doesn't have those, either
   What makes Leica's pricing especially galling is that the S2 is NOT extremely high resolution! It's a modest jump in resolution and sensor size over the D3x, and significantly less of both compared to most MF being sold today (apart from entry-level models at half its price, which have modestly larger sensors than the S2 at slightly less resolution). If it were a 50+MP camera with a sensor 36x48mm or larger, the pricing might be justifiable as a competitor for the few applications that really need that. Some photographers would say "I'll give up shift capability for a camera that handles like a 35mm, but I still want above-D3x resolution". The S2 as it exists needs to be priced between the most expensive DSLRs and the bottom end of DMF (distinctly undercutting Hasselblad's more flexible $18000 package) to be competitive.
     Otherwise, Leica's staking their entire premium on the assertion that their lenses are noticeably better at optimum apertures than either the very best Nikkors OR the Fujiblad lenses, AND that ALL of these lenses aren't diffraction-limited at most apertures anyway (I suspect that most really good lenses, including a bunch of top Nikkors, all the Leica lenses and most or all of the Fujiblad lenses are actually better than either the sensors or the diffraction limit). Of course, you COULD put a $200 Sigma 28-300 zoom lens on a D3x, and the shutter would fire, but that's not what the camera was made for, any more than drilling a pinhole in a body cap (comparable in cost to that cheap Sigma zoom) is the recommended lens for the S2.
    Another problem that people may not have caught is that, while the S2 is the size of a D700 or a 5DII, it's as heavy as a D3x (heavier, depending on the lens - the Leica 70mm prime is almost as heavy as the 24-70 f2.8 Nikkor). The D3x has the vertical grip that also provides additional support while holding it horizontally. I've never tried holding a camera that heavy with as little to grip as the S2 offers - all DSLRs that heavy are dual-grip, and MF offers very secure side pistol grips. I'd imagine that the S2 would be tiring to hold.

                                      -Dan
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D_Clear

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« Reply #116 on: August 01, 2009, 01:53:09 pm »

Forgive the long post, I rarely comment in this forum, frankly I don't have the time or energy to devote to it, plus - it's crystal clear that the majority here are entrenched enough in their beliefs… so it's mostly about the witty banter, not so much about outcome., fair enough.

Perhaps though it's possible to expand a view or two, by sharing personal experience, and to point out the obvious, that our immediate circle does not necessarily reflect the reality of the whole spectrum.

Perhaps also my comments can encourage some of you to aspire to doing things knowing there is still a great career to be had in photography despite economic turbulence and the continually-lowered barriers to entry making everyone think they are/can be a true photographer.

I'm amazed at the degree of cynicism here and, well a lot of presumptive comments about; the S2 system, Leica's 'certain' demise, the (tired) argument of DSLR vs MFDB, a working pros needs vs luxury, etc… Reminds me of a recent flight to Europe, my (enlightened) client insisted I fly executive class, getting settled in my 'pod' one of the passengers passed-by on her way to her seat at the rear of the aircraft, she tossed me a comment 'it doesn't look comfortable I wouldn't want it anyway'.

I hold the view that any company or individual adding to or developing our industry by way of new product, evolving technology, varied tools - whatever you want to call it, these individuals and companies should be applauded because they enrich photography and making images, something we all love. This absolutely includes boutique companies such as Leica who have something important to offer.

I have no way of knowing how many here are making some, or all of their modest/exceptional living at photography, I am fortunate to be in the latter group and I am not a vanity photographer. A large number of posters write like they are not making their main income shooting, or if they are, I interpret an 'amateur' mindset when it comes to equipment decisions - irrespective of the S2 system or not; 'If it's good enough for me and within my budget it should be good enough for everyone', or 'I defy you to tell the difference in image quality at A4 size between mine and yours…" honestly these kind of comments are tiresome and just make the writer look limited, there's a whole other world of photography clients/standards, etc, out there, and it's bigger and more demanding then you think, plenty of us do purchase best of breed equipment and pay accordingly because for our needs it is essential and we are competing with others who strive for the best possible product, uncompromisingly.
In my business every significant purchase is considered from both a 'creative', and a ROI perspective considering a 1, 2 and 3 year timeline wherever appropriate. Equipment is billed to the client on an as-needed basis.

In my situation, I shoot a mixture of fashion and portraits plus some other things for advertising, and editorial, across North America and a bit in Europe. I shoot over 100 days a year on assignments in my studio and on location, any pro at my level in the pyramid will tell you that is a busy year considering all the other parts such as bidding, pre-pro, post, travel, meetings, promotion, etc that go along with it.

My cameras and lights are my tools, I have a lot of tools, they are the best I can find to make my product, because they enable the process to create what clients respond to in my portfolio, in ads, in awards and on my website - and this gives me work, a lot of work. It might be interesting to note this is my best year in business - ever. I have built my career on the belief that creative and technical excellence, differentiation, client experience and hard work are uppermost, within a solid and disciplined business framework. Given this the S2 Leica promise is a likely candidate for inclusion in my work.

Given my style of shooting and my desire to have the best possible tools to achieve my results, (currently) I use several systems but (mostly) work with a Contax 645 for the zeiss glass, with a P45+, I am constantly testing other systems and formats, to date nothing has proven better for my needs. Yes I have shot and scrutinized the best and most current MFDB's and DSLRs which sometimes make sense but they are not the complete solution for me. DSLR speed and iso are undeniably better, as is cost, however they do not 'see' the same as larger glass - the aesthetic is spatially different and anyone who does not know this or care, well they are happy in their ignorance. In my experience the 14 bit file simply cannot withstand the same stress in heavy post, and when cropped the files are not large and/or versatile enough for my Art Directors.

Within the next year I will be changing from the P45+ partly because it will run out of extended warranty, but more importantly the aging of the technology (camera) combined with my writedown on the equipment will encourage this from a business perspective. For a busy shooter at my level in the pyramid - and just open LeBook, Workbook, AtEdge, etc and you will begin to see the tip of the iceberg, albeit there are a myriad of formats among my group, but a 60K system written down over three years is 20K a year plus or minus financing, this represents less then 3-5% of the gross revenue for anyone in said pyramid and is not an unreasonable expense in my view.

In fact for such a key component of the business (presuming said piece is as good or better then my current system) it is a bargain from a business analysis perspective, in my particular case I will get a fresh warranty, new technology, faster flash sync, faster autofocus, etc.

It remains to be seen whether the S2 will have enough of the features and advancements to warrant inclusion in my lineup, but I will test it and if the tools are there I will buy it without a second thought, many others will do the same I can assure you.


Dermot Cleary



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Ben Rubinstein

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« Reply #117 on: August 01, 2009, 02:21:33 pm »

Quote from: hcubell
Sorry for not being clear. I was not being complimentary about the quality of  many of the photographs I have seen taken with P65s,  either on a technical or artistic level. My point is that there are apparently many photographers out there willing to pay $40,000 for a camera system that cannot in any rational way be justified by "need". They buy them because they can afford them, and they are the top of the heap in megapixels.
BTW, if the S2 had a 60mp chip, I think the S2 would be viewed as much better value than the 37.5mp model Leica is now selling for $23,000, even if it cost $10,000 more. Again, look at the P65 price and the price of the forthcoming Hasselblad 60mp H3D. No one seems to be freaking over those prices.

I wonder how many of those buying the P65+ are pro photographers (how many pro's need that level of resolution) and how many are 'professional rich enthusiasts' like the owner of this site?
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feppe

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« Reply #118 on: August 01, 2009, 02:47:30 pm »

Quote from: D_Clear
4
Within the next year I will be changing from the P45+ partly because it will run out of extended warranty, but more importantly the aging of the technology (camera) combined with my writedown on the equipment will encourage this from a business perspective. For a busy shooter at my level in the pyramid - and just open LeBook, Workbook, AtEdge, etc and you will begin to see the tip of the iceberg, albeit there are a myriad of formats among my group, but a 60K system written down over three years is 20K a year plus or minus financing, this represents less then 3-5% of the gross revenue for anyone in said pyramid and is not an unreasonable expense in my view.

I'm a finance guy by trade, so this is an interesting exercise for me: Taking the $20k write-down per year which represents 3% of annual revenue yields $667k. I don't know what the margins in the business are, but assuming a generous 20% that results in gross income of $133k. Now, the average salary of a US-based photographer is $54k. Without doing a normal distribution, I guesstimate it puts "your level" safely in the top 1% income bracket of photographers; according to the same site top 10 percentile is a mere $71k. That's a pretty sobering view for those who dream of being a pro: you need to be in top 10% to make just $71k... There's only so many marco glavianos and joe mcnallies out there...

I'm one of those amateurs who can't justify plunking down a good car's worth of money on a hobby, no matter how serious it is. Having said that, I'd buy an S2 over P65+ or a H3D in a heartbeat - given that it delivers 90% of what the marketing hype claims. I've read too many stories about the utter lack of ergonomics and innovation of MFDBs, as well as their inherent limitations which would limit their utility for me.

S2 is a bold step in finally distancing cameras from legacy systems, and if they can avoid the pedestrian bumbling that was the M8 on release I'm sure it will find its niche. Whether that niche is large enough to recoop the millions in R&D within investor-approved timelines is another question. As much as most people praise Nikon and especially Canon for producing innovative products, it is only Leica and Red who truly do so now or in the near future.

PS. Impressive (but slow to load) portfolio; especially the cargo ship photo is stunning. But how on earth did you get model releases for the campaign against child sexual exploitation photos?
« Last Edit: August 01, 2009, 02:50:33 pm by feppe »
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D_Clear

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Leica S2 Pricing
« Reply #119 on: August 01, 2009, 04:50:23 pm »

Thanks for taking the time to view my website, I'd appreciate knowing what type of internet and computer speed you are using, I have had wildly differing load-times reported but in our testing, a recent-model computer with high-speed 'lite' typically loads in 30 seconds or less.

The campaign you refer to was done with DDB, a large and respected agency, our intent, the concept was completely transparent at the time of casting, all Talent candidates were aware of the potential stigma of participation, I suppose they felt it worthwhile and important enough to participate, as did I.

Any financial discussion around (presumed/extrapolated) income especially when quoting your source - which as a finance guy, you know the difference between median and average of 54K, the high was 100K in your source. We both know these types of numbers can be quite skewed, often downwards, case in point - the average annual U.S. salary (I am based in Canada BTW) in 2002 was 37K (Wiki). If you believe that number then photographers made between 50-100% more than the national average.

As to my own situation I would consider another career if I made anywhere near the income you suggest. The other part of it is, and again I mention it to evidence that the math is not so simplistic, but I already own more camera equipment (written down tax-wise but still valuable) on the resale market then the projected S2 system is priced at, so my outlay is going to be different then some people.

I totally appreciate the fact that as an amateur you find it nonsensical to buy such a product, my original point was to offer my personal experience as a busy professional making a business decision on a ROI within my business for an admittedly expensive yet affordable tool.

Otherwise, you and I are completely aligned with respect to excitement over the S2 if it can deliver most of it's promise.
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