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Author Topic: Used digi back pricing?  (Read 35400 times)

Theodoros

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Re: Used digi back pricing?
« Reply #60 on: November 14, 2015, 08:10:49 pm »

I wonder..... Is that for real?

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Hasselblad-H5D-50C-Wifi-/231742905132?hash=item35f4f41b2c:g:SZcAAOSw14xWMhJW....

It seems that in Hasselblad they have realized that people aren't stupid... finally! ...it was about time!

EDIT: If I'm not mistaken (hardly the case) this is exactly equal to a P1 XF camera + IQ 350 back....  and it is a listing from an official Hasselblad dealer for new with full warranty...
« Last Edit: November 14, 2015, 08:25:33 pm by Theodoros »
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yashima

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Re: Used digi back pricing?
« Reply #61 on: November 15, 2015, 12:49:18 am »

@buckshot:

As I said, your coverage of sold price is very helpful when done in the right spirit. However, many times I have seen you invade seller's post before anyone asks for your opinion/advice. Your generalisation of pricing based on one-off sale is not correct either, pricing also varies greatly from mount to mount. If you kindly point me to the direction of getting a Contax mount IQ160 for 11k, I would like to personally send you 1k as gratitude or I can send to a charity of your choice.

We all know the MFDB market needs to transform to remain relevant, and one aspect is pricing. But protest to the manufacturer with your money, not your fellow photographers, most have bought them for substantially more.

« Last Edit: November 15, 2015, 12:55:22 am by yashima »
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Theodoros

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Re: Used digi back pricing?
« Reply #62 on: November 15, 2015, 05:15:50 am »

@buckshot:

As I said, your coverage of sold price is very helpful when done in the right spirit. However, many times I have seen you invade seller's post before anyone asks for your opinion/advice. Your generalisation of pricing based on one-off sale is not correct either, pricing also varies greatly from mount to mount. If you kindly point me to the direction of getting a Contax mount IQ160 for 11k, I would like to personally send you 1k as gratitude or I can send to a charity of your choice.

We all know the MFDB market needs to transform to remain relevant, and one aspect is pricing. But protest to the manufacturer with your money, not your fellow photographers, most have bought them for substantially more.

The reason that IQ-160 are difficult to get in Contax mount is that there aren't many made, however, it is very possible if one gets an IQ-160 with the value added warranty, he can use it as to have the back replaced with one in Contax mount for free...

By the way, I believe that IQ backs where heavily promoted in Mamiya mount (which is a very reasonable thing to do since Mamiya was a recent family company addition at the days) and thus there aren't many made in other mounts than M645.... Contax mount is as hard to find as Hasselblad-V and even Hasselblad H are not widely available (although more than Contax or V), since only some pros insisted using Hasselblad H platform but with Phase One back because of the sensor size and the ability to shoot in exposure + mode....

Specifically for Contax, the users didn't have a good reason as to use IQ-160 instead of P-65+ and this is because the Contax needs an external cable for it to be used in tethered mode as to be "directed" from the back to activate its shutter... So, I suspect that IQ backs on-screen LV may not be (if one knows for sure please share) able to work with the Contax... It is the same reason why one can't use the Contax in multishot mode at all with multishot able backs unless he uses the appropriate external cable as to trigger the shutter... It seems that the CPU on the Contax body, does have the command as to synchronize its shutter while waking up the back, but it doesn't work (through the CPU) the other way around...

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Paul2660

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Re: Used digi back pricing?
« Reply #63 on: November 15, 2015, 10:10:10 am »

I wonder..... Is that for real?

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Hasselblad-H5D-50C-Wifi-/231742905132?hash=item35f4f41b2c:g:SZcAAOSw14xWMhJW....

It seems that in Hasselblad they have realized that people aren't stupid... finally! ...it was about time!

EDIT: If I'm not mistaken (hardly the case) this is exactly equal to a P1 XF camera + IQ 350 back....  and it is a listing from an official Hasselblad dealer for new with full warranty...

For sure a great price.

Item is closed now.  Or sure if it was pulled or sold cannot tell.
But if it was placed by a dealer which is implied, as a one time listing not surprised by this. End of year type sale. Could have been old inventory, demo etc.

If they keep running such deals, to me that puts things in a bit different perspective.

Paul C
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eronald

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Re: Used digi back pricing?
« Reply #64 on: November 15, 2015, 11:35:28 am »

Euro price for H5DcWifi was 14375 this week in Paris.

Edmund
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buckshot

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Re: Used digi back pricing?
« Reply #65 on: November 15, 2015, 11:39:39 am »

@Yashima ’...many times I have seen you invade seller's post before anyone asks for your opinion/advice...’ (my emphasis).

*sigh*

Listen, if you’re just going to make stuff up, I’m done with you. I’ve got 249 posts, of which ~10 in the ‘for sale’ section mention a $ amount - and that includes replies (as you have done) to people are asking for help pricing stuff, trying to find stuff, or where a listing needs clarification. I’m not going to apologize for any of those. Caveat Emptor is all well and good, but if (IMHO) there’s the potential for someone being taken for a ride (either here or in the 'real world'), I’ll speak up (or act), and be damned.

Did you read Steve’s post after mine ? That pricing is only temporary, which means they’ll be putting it back to ~$23k. Using the 80% rule, this would put an IQ160 at around $18k. Digitalback.com have a couple for sale right now for $15k with VAW - buy one of these and swap it out to a Contax mount. It's what, $3k to do that otherwise. Equally, since Yashica stopped servicing Contax gear this year, you may see some used stuff being dumped privately. Contax users are pretty loyal, but business is business.

I really don’t know what it is about the culture of a particular part of the user base engendered by Phase One, but over the years any criticism at all (either real or perceived) - especially about price - really gets people hot under the collar. To anyone reading this thread who has dropped $$$$ on nice shiny new Phase One gear (or HB etc.) because you want (or need) it to make the sort of images you want (or need) ... what do you care about threads like this ? There are plenty of threads out there of the type, 'I just bought such and such / My such and such arrived today etc.' where you can get the group hug you seek. Give the rest of us - who are looking to save a buck - a break from your angst.

Jim
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yashima

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Re: Used digi back pricing?
« Reply #66 on: November 15, 2015, 01:06:46 pm »


@Theodoros: Yes I want to do the same thing but that is subjected to availability. A few times I checked  there had ever been one Contax IQ160/180 at any dealers' and that was gone before I can do anything. Phase One just wont make you a new one. So the chance of doing that is pretty slim.

@buckshot: I really don't mind (price) criticism toward Phase One. I have owned 4 backs so far and had never bought directly from dealers myself. What bothers me is, perhaps unjustifyingly, a somewhat unkindness of you toward private sellers. Its not nice being told your kit worth nothing (or has to be priced at some level dictated by some other sale). Anyhow, I do appreciate your knowledge of pricing. I guess I want to say, use it more tactfully. I happen to think of selling off part of my kits soon. Any advice is appreciated via PM ;-)

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Theodoros

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Re: Used digi back pricing?
« Reply #67 on: November 15, 2015, 01:41:19 pm »

Euro price for H5DcWifi was 14375 this week in Paris.

Edmund
Yeah... it seems that they've stopped all that fake "trade in" practice of the past and they've left dealers free to deal with trades as they wish...  As a result, they don't collect older equipment anymore as to withdraw it from the S/H market and they've removed all the related charges that where on the final price.... It also seems that they promote heavily all the products that are related with the 50mp Cmos censor and the H5X camera while they pay  less attention to their  CCD based products if any at all... They even started selling the (same Cmos sensor) 50MS & 200MS multishot backs as stand alone backs!

It also seems that they are not satisfied at all with Dalsa letting them down with respect to P1 for full size sensors and they've decided to move onto exclusive for them future Cmos censors as Leica already did, than use sensors in the future that P1 has also access too... 

IMO, the current Cmos sensor will soon be the base for their "entry level" offerings (at even lower prices - I expect the H5D-50 to take the place of H5D-40).... I think P1 has to react soon by completely changing their pricing policy & by "opening" XF to customers that whant to keep their older backs as to directly compete with Hasselblad.... Otherwise, if there will be a new, larger, exclusive to Hasselblad, Cmos sensor coming soon, P1 may look less appealing than ever to the market...

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Theodoros

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Re: Used digi back pricing?
« Reply #68 on: November 15, 2015, 01:49:50 pm »

@Theodoros: Yes I want to do the same thing but that is subjected to availability. A few times I checked  there had ever been one Contax IQ160/180 at any dealers' and that was gone before I can do anything. Phase One just wont make you a new one. So the chance of doing that is pretty slim.


Do you (or another)  know for sure if on screen LV of an IQ back works with the Contax? Because if it doesn't, P-65+ seems a far better option price wise... 
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eronald

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Re: Used digi back pricing?
« Reply #69 on: November 15, 2015, 03:32:14 pm »

Do you (or another)  know for sure if on screen LV of an IQ back works with the Contax? Because if it doesn't, P-65+ seems a far better option price wise...

it was a show related "sale price". I think this is the real going price.
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Theodoros

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Re: Used digi back pricing?
« Reply #70 on: November 15, 2015, 05:57:14 pm »

OK... IQ backs on screen LV does work with all third party cameras that it can be attached on... (Contax 645 too). It is not a cable required either with the Contax as one has to activate the back for LV and shoot the camera set on "B" for as long as it is required. The external cable to connect the MFDB with the remote release socket of the camera, is only needed when one uses the Contax 645 & IQ back in tethered mode as to remotely trigger the camera's shutter from C1 software. 
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Paul2660

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Re: Used digi back pricing?
« Reply #71 on: November 15, 2015, 06:38:33 pm »

OK... IQ backs on screen LV does work with all third party cameras that it can be attached on... (Contax 645 too). It is not a cable required either with the Contax as one has to activate the back for LV and shoot the camera set on "B" for as long as it is required. The external cable to connect the MFDB with the remote release socket of the camera, is only needed when one uses the Contax 645 & IQ back in tethered mode as to remotely trigger the camera's shutter from C1 software.

Too bad that Live View on CCD Phase Backs, is pretty much worthless, at least outdoors.  Just takes way too long to dampen out the file, finally gave up on using it even with a vario ND.  The battery drain is bad enough but watch just how "hot" your CCD back will get in a 85 degree outdoor day, shooting outdoors on a sunny day.  The increase in noise is exponential.  It takes about 30 minutes to cool off also.  This is a IQ260, but I have tried, 180 and 280, both get hot fast with a lot of LV. 

and if you change anything or move the camera, it all starts over.  Indoors, can be very effective. 

Paul C
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Theodoros

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Re: Used digi back pricing?
« Reply #72 on: November 15, 2015, 07:21:08 pm »

Too bad that Live View on CCD Phase Backs, is pretty much worthless, at least outdoors.  Just takes way too long to dampen out the file, finally gave up on using it even with a vario ND.  The battery drain is bad enough but watch just how "hot" your CCD back will get in a 85 degree outdoor day, shooting outdoors on a sunny day.  The increase in noise is exponential.  It takes about 30 minutes to cool off also.  This is a IQ260, but I have tried, 180 and 280, both get hot fast with a lot of LV. 

and if you change anything or move the camera, it all starts over.  Indoors, can be very effective. 

Paul C

I'm aware of the heating the sensor problem Paul, it is the same with my Sinarback 54H back where the LV is surprisingly good (especially if one considers the age of the back) and can be great if one uses Sinar's LC shutter with it, with my other back, (the CF-39MS) LV is practically useless.

IMO, with CCD backs one is best to direct the scene through the VF and even focus, then use the LV only to nail focus for 4-5 max 6 secs...
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buckshot

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Re: Used digi back pricing?
« Reply #73 on: November 15, 2015, 08:49:36 pm »

At one time or another we are all buyers and sellers. Most pros have the safety net of the DB having payed for itself (in terms of capture fees etc.) when they come to sell, so they don’t sweat it. Enthusiasts and some pros (depending on how they bill) naturally fixate on what they paid for the DB when it comes time to move it, and completely lose sight of what’s happened to the market in the meantime.

Obviously not all gear is created equal. Good lenses retain value. Cameras like Ebony, Alpa etc. retain value. But … pretty much any piece of electronic gear is going to zero. And that depreciation is accelerated when servicing comes to an end. Fixing a field camera yourself is doable. A digital back ? Forget it.

Before I go and lie down in a darkened room, my advice to anyone selling a DB is:

1) Recognize that it’s a buyers market, and will stay that way. It’s not going to change. Ever. No matter how long you hold out. No, really, it isn’t.

2) Do your research and ask a realistic price. What you paid back in the day is irrelevant. I know, it was a lot. It hurts. Take it on the chin.

3) Be prepared to move on price, ‘A bird in the hand…’ etc.

Beyond the natural price free fall of anything with a microchip in it, the deck is loaded against sellers because it’s never been easier for buyers to find out what gear is selling for on a user-to-user basis. When I started out you were limited to the small ads in the back of the popular photography magazines to find out the (user-to-user) asking price. Then you would look at the dealer ads for their selling price. Then you would phone the dealer and find out what their buying price was. Then, armed with all that, it was down to you to figure out what your bottom line should be. Today, you have dealer websites, internet archives, eBay, and of course … a forum like this.

Look at an IQ180 as a final example. A P1 dealer (who you are on good terms with) - might - on a good day - offer ~$10k trade-in. A non-P1 dealer, less. Note this is 'trade-in', neither really wants to buy it from you. They'll probably offer to sell it on commission at a push rather than part with the cash. The dealer is ultimately the seller’s buyer of last resort, and sadly for the seller, both the (private) buyer and the dealer know this. Add into the mix the fact that buyers for this kit are few and far between, and it would just be plain stupid for the seller to turn down any good private offer in the low ‘teens. That’s why these are selling for $14k right now. And that's probably too high. Soon that figure will be $12k. Within 6 months that will be $10k. Lamenting this fact, or resenting those who air these things in public, is just a waste of time and energy. Don’t shoot the messenger. Move on. It is what it is.

Jim

P.S. Yashima - having looked back at my posts, I think ‘unkindness’ is a bit, er, unkind. I never just pluck a figure out of thin air; on the rare occasion I mention a $ amount, there is always a source. We'll just have to agree to disagree on this one.
« Last Edit: November 15, 2015, 09:20:11 pm by buckshot »
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Theodoros

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Re: Used digi back pricing?
« Reply #74 on: November 15, 2015, 10:29:33 pm »

Well said... but for part of the market to ask the same price as an H5D-50c Wi-fi combination, (which is the direct alternative to an XF + IQ 350 and probably better in some details), for a 5 year old back is totally insane... Especially if its backed up by people "raving" (trolling?) all over the web for Hasselblad's collapse and P1 (their funboy symbol)... buying Hasselblad! 
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Phil Indeblanc

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Re: Used digi back pricing?
« Reply #75 on: November 15, 2015, 10:36:35 pm »

and those few that do get the DB for a really low price. It only looks really low in comparison to the dealer prices.
Its not like there is DB sold every few hours or days. So even the one off sale on Ebay is valid. It at the least shows the inactivity and lack of interest.
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gerald.d

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Re: Used digi back pricing?
« Reply #76 on: November 16, 2015, 12:03:06 am »


Look at an IQ180 as a final example. A P1 dealer (who you are on good terms with) - might - on a good day - offer ~$10k trade-in. A non-P1 dealer, less. Note this is 'trade-in', neither really wants to buy it from you. They'll probably offer to sell it on commission at a push rather than part with the cash. The dealer is ultimately the seller’s buyer of last resort, and sadly for the seller, both the (private) buyer and the dealer know this. Add into the mix the fact that buyers for this kit are few and far between, and it would just be plain stupid for the seller to turn down any good private offer in the low ‘teens. That’s why these are selling for $14k right now. And that's probably too high. Soon that figure will be $12k. Within 6 months that will be $10k. Lamenting this fact, or resenting those who air these things in public, is just a waste of time and energy. Don’t shoot the messenger. Move on. It is what it is.

Jim

This simply isn't true - are you actually basing your comments on actual transactions?

Let me provide you with an actual IQ180 example.

I'm trading in a (very) out of warranty IQ180 against a brand new IQ3 80.

IQ3 80 list - EUR 33,990
Return upgrade offer for IQ180 - EUR(20,990)
Total amount I'm paying - EUR 13,000

(My IQ180 was bought privately in March 2012 for US$27,500. IIRC, at the time, dealer pricing on a used IQ180 with 1 year warranty was around $10K above that).


Kind regards,


Gerald.
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Theodoros

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Re: Used digi back pricing?
« Reply #77 on: November 16, 2015, 03:32:01 am »

This simply isn't true - are you actually basing your comments on actual transactions?

Let me provide you with an actual IQ180 example.

I'm trading in a (very) out of warranty IQ180 against a brand new IQ3 80.

IQ3 80 list - EUR 33,990
Return upgrade offer for IQ180 - EUR(20,990)
Total amount I'm paying - EUR 13,000

(My IQ180 was bought privately in March 2012 for US$27,500. IIRC, at the time, dealer pricing on a used IQ180 with 1 year warranty was around $10K above that).


Kind regards,


Gerald.

Exactly the case which proves that P1 overprices their products deliberately... Hasselblad used to do the same up until recently...  ;)
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gerald.d

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Re: Used digi back pricing?
« Reply #78 on: November 16, 2015, 03:45:02 am »


Exactly the case which proves that P1 overprices their products deliberately... Hasselblad used to do the same up until recently...  ;)

What it proves is that claims of reluctant $10k trade-in values offered against IQ180's are demonstrably incorrect.

Which is the point I was addressing.





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Theodoros

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Re: Used digi back pricing?
« Reply #79 on: November 16, 2015, 04:08:37 am »

and those few that do get the DB for a really low price. It only looks really low in comparison to the dealer prices.
Its not like there is DB sold every few hours or days. So even the one off sale on Ebay is valid. It at the least shows the inactivity and lack of interest.

....or it means that they've stopped overpricing their products by not including a prejudged future "upgrade path" in the pricing for new... Or, it means that they realized that people could notice the inexplicable last year's difference in price for a CFV 50 when compared to an H5D-50c.... Mind you that:
A. The ebay offering is quite an "expensive" offering, currently one can buy a new H5D-50c Wi-Fi to various dealers around Europe for 14K, (which means that there is a new pricing policy from factory).
B. The policy is applied on the CMos sensor related products which are the major market demand at the moment (which means that they do all to their power as to turn all of the rest customer attention to the "new" sensor).
C. That they released a range of backs to be sold as stand alone (you can buy the back only), but again, only the Cmos sensor based ones. (a proof that they want to replace all the series with Cmos products).
D. That Hasselblad's promotion logo with the introduction of the H5D-50 some 1&1/2 years ago, was: "the best Hasselblad ever". (again, a clear suggestion that their CCD products are under looked).

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