Used digi back pricing?

[ErikKaffehr]

Hi,

I was a bit in shock when I have realised that they replace the back instead of changing the mount, as I was under the impression that the Phase backs were modular.

Getting back to the original question, I would suggest checking dealers pricing. The dealers may give some warranty, so I guess that it would be reasonable to sell say about 3000 $US under dealer prices.

Best regards
Erik

That sucks, as if you have a great back, that is dialed in, ie. (they all aren't the same) and they Phase ships a different back with a new serial number your images may be different.  I know for a fact that there are differences between my old P45+ and newer P45+ backs, based on images.  I also know that when my IQ160 went back to Phase One 2 years ago for a fix, the loaner I received, also a IQ160, did not have the same shadow recovery abilities.  I spent way too much time testing this to make sure.  The loaner also had a different tiling issue (with tech lenses) and seemed to have a bit more microlens ripple. 

Something to remember

Paul

[torger]

(OT: through my raw converter work I've looked at many files and I can agree with Paul that backs vary quite a bit, it's not just Phase One it's Leaf and Hassy too. CCDs are quite variable (and I guess the converters too), that's why it's so important with individual calibration, but evenso there are some backs that are a little bit better than others. For most normal use you won't notice though, but when you push them to the limit with tech lenses or advanced post-processing you may see differences for sure.)

[buckshot]

The dealers may give some warranty, so I guess that it would be reasonable to sell say about 3000 $US under dealer prices

With used camera gear, I've always followed the 25:25 rule. Buy used - I want 25% less than retail. Buy privately - I want 25% less than from a dealer. On a big ticket item like a 260, $3k just isn't a big enough differential to go privately - not even close. The dealer is going to ask in the high 20s for a used 260, so at $3k less you'd be in the mid-20s. Sorry, but it simply isn't worth that in today's world. Because of the upgrade system P1 offers, their DBs are priced artificially high. When you look to cash out, you quickly find what the market thinks that digital camera is worth - and the answer is 'not very much' in relative terms. Further, we can bang on until the cows come home about the quality of high MP 35mm DSLRs vs MFDB, but every time one is released, the potential number of people looking to buy a used DB shrinks, as people weigh up the cost vs the return and drift away. With the release of Canon's 50MP camera - soon to be followed by offerings from Sony and Nikon - we're at such a point. Throw in their T/S lenses and Zeiss' Otus lenses and the quality you can obtain at a hugely lower price point is quite amazing, even compared to just a couple of years ago. We've seen an evolution of innovation that MF users can only dream of, and it's naturally going to have a knock on $ effect in the used DB market place.

[buckshot]

Just thought I'd revive this thread with a casual observation that will hopefully save someone a few $.

If you’re buying a new P1 back then it pretty much doesn’t matter where you go in the world to buy it, you’re going to pay about the same. P1’s franchise model of dealership allows them to tightly control what dealer’s can sell new gear for...

...however, with secondhand gear from a P1 dealer this doesn’t seem to be the case - which means, if you’re looking for a used DB it could be worth your while shopping around - and abroad if necessary.

Examples:

Here’s an IQ250 for $20,500 - by way of comparison, digitalback.com were asking the same for the last Leaf Credo 50 they listed. N.B. This is not much more than this one for sale privately for $19,500 (a classic case of the private seller not being aware of what their gear is worth and so subsequently not putting enough daylight (25% at least) between them and a dealer).

And here’s an IQ260 for $22,000 - digitalback.com are currently asking $22,000 for the IQ160. N.B. This is not much more than this one for sale privately for $20,000 - (again, a case of the private seller not being aware of what their gear is worth).

And to round this all off, here’s the pick of the bunch - an IQ280 for $25,000 - again, by way of comparison, digitalback.com are asking $28,000 for an IQ180.

The moral of the story - shop around - know what the gear is worth (not what someone is asking) - and get a good deal.

Jim

P.S. Kudos to dealers who list prices - digitalback.com, DTEK etc. - and a big thumbs-down to dealers who still (incredibly) say 'phone for price' - digitaltransitions etc.

[voidshatter]

If you’re buying a new P1 back then it pretty much doesn’t matter where you go in the world to buy it, you’re going to pay about the same. P1’s franchise model of dealership allows them to tightly control what dealer’s can sell new gear for...

I can't agree with this. While a new IQ260 was being listed at $33K USD in the UK (excluding VAT), in China you could buy new for only $25K USD. Even in the UK you can get very different pricing among different dealers, at the scale of around $3K USD.

[Chris Livsey]

The moral of the story - shop around - know what the gear is worth (not what someone is asking) - and get a good deal.

Jim

P.S. Kudos to dealers who list prices - digitalback.com, DTEK etc. - and a big thumbs-down to dealers who still (incredibly) say 'phone for price' - digitaltransitions etc.

I agree absolutely re pricing transparency or lack of it but do note the prices you quote from DTEK UK are without our "sales tax",  VAT. Now as a VAT registered UK or EU business you can claim the 20% tax on those prices back as can an overseas buyer, which is why they quote them that way (as well as making them look less expensive superficially) The Procentre UK (mainly Hasselblad) does the same but private UK individuals cannot claim back that tax.

So, looking as a private person at the private sale I see it as 20% less than the dealer (complicated because if I did buy from the USA  I would need to pay that tax on import, what global market?) I would not pay VAT on a private sale within the EU.

BTW DTEK gave me excellent service recently on a new battery and port cover, I have no gripe with them at all.

[torger]

VAT is a big thing in EU for private sales. When selling private individual to private individual, there's no requirement to pay VAT at least not here in Sweden where the VAT is as high as 25%, which of course makes private sales for me as a private individual a lot more attractive than they otherwise would be.

I just sold my fresh Aptus 75 for €2600 after being on sale since February. I hoped to get more, but it's a buyers market and I've noticed a quite big move down in value of the entry level backs the last two years, probably both due to competition from below and that CMOS is now available in MFD format making the old CCDs suddenly look old. I don't know how much high end is affected though. For recent backs there's upgrade programs which makes the backs valuable even if the back itself may not seem as attractive as before from a technology aspect.

[buckshot]

While a new IQ260 was being listed at $33K USD in the UK (excluding VAT), in China you could buy new for only $25K USD…

Interesting - that’s a significant saving - wasn’t aware of such a price difference in China - must brush up on my Mandarin so I can browse those websites...

I agree absolutely re pricing transparency or lack of it but do note the prices you quote from DTEK UK are without our "sales tax”…

Appreciate that, but as someone who can claim sales tax back, I only compare price ex-sales tax, otherwise it becomes a case of trying to compare apples with bananas with oranges etc. So, when you remove sales tax from the equation, the price differences come to the fore and are significant. Everyone says the UK is expensive - well, not in comparison to the US when it comes to buying a used DB from a P1 dealer. Now, who would have thought that - not me. Just goes to show.

[BernardLanguillier]

I can't agree with this. While a new IQ260 was being listed at $33K USD in the UK (excluding VAT), in China you could buy new for only $25K USD. Even in the UK you can get very different pricing among different dealers, at the scale of around $3K USD.

Similarly, I was proposed a few years back from an Asia dealer deals on Leaf backs more than 10,000 US$ lower than the price in Japan (at that time Japan prices were a total rip off, don't know today).

Cheers,
Bernard

[buckshot]

Sounds like there's a Chinese State subsidy on digital backs.

[ErikKaffehr]

More like open market competition...

Erik

Sounds like there's a Chinese State subsidy on digital backs.

[buckshot]

A quick look at foundergt.com - one of P1s dealers in Hong Kong, gives the following (all ex sales tax, US dollars):

IQ150 - $25.6k
IQ180 - $32.5k
IQ250 - $31k
IQ280 - $38k
IQ350 - $34.4k
IQ360 - $35.3k
IQ380 - $42k

Compared to digitalback.com :

IQ150 - $28k
IQ180 - $36k
IQ250 - $36k
IQ280 - not listed
IQ350 - $36k
IQ360 - $37k
IQ380 - $44k

Sure, there are price differences (biggest being the $5k for the IQ250) - but I wouldn’t say any of them are deal-breakingly-big - especially when you take into account exchange rates etc. Certainly none is large enough to warrant me getting on a plane and going to Hong Kong, so for all practical intents and purposes, the prices are ‘equivalent’.

[yashima]

I'm looking for an IQ160 in the used market however pricing of pre-owned from dealers (I believe these pricing controlled by PhaseOne) are a little perplexing, perhaps Doug or Steve could please enlighten me. Here are the prices:

p40+ 9k
p65+ 12.5k
iq140 12-14k
iq160 22k

Everything is reasonable until IQ160. From P40 to P65, it about a factor of 1.4, I really should expect IQ160 is about 1.4 the price of IQ140, or about 16.5 to 19k.


It looks like P65+ is the best value for money now (or IQ140, depending on which features you value)

[Ken R]

I'm looking for an IQ160 in the used market however pricing of pre-owned from dealers (I believe these pricing controlled by PhaseOne) are a little perplexing, perhaps Doug or Steve could please enlighten me. Here are the prices:

p40+ 9k
p65+ 12.5k
iq140 12-14k
iq160 22k

Everything is reasonable until IQ160. From P40 to P65, it about a factor of 1.4, I really should expect IQ160 is about 1.4 the price of IQ140, or about 16.5 to 19k.


It looks like P65+ is the best value for money now (or IQ140, depending on which features you value)

When I was in the market for MF Digital 2 years ago I considered a P+ back, briefly, decided on the IQ160 and was glad. Th IQ chasis / screen / interface is just eons ahead of the P+ which feel very very dated. Even though the sensor of the P65+ and the IQ160 is basically identical the functionality of the back is worlds apart. The IQ back is faster and MUCH easier to browse and check images for composition and focus (100%). The rudimentary live view of the IQ160 works well enough for composing images. Nice to have for sure.

[torger]

Personally I can't stand paying $12k extra for user interface improvements that make the digital back almost as advanced as my $300 phone , while image quality and sensor features stay the same. I'd surely go for the P65+, and stay with an ancient GUI still some time.

It's personal though. Before I thought 100% focus check would be critical to me (I'm focusing on ground glass on my tech cam), but I've noted that with experience I less and less often actually zoom to 100%, and I don't feel I have focus issues, even now with my 6um pixel back.

The CMOS feature set on the other hand, that's a different story... if the next CMOS generation is BSI with wide angular response, I'll start saving up!

[synn]

I tested an aptus and a credo side by side. Within 10 minutes, I made the decision to go with the Credo.
The improvements in user experience between those two generations are huge and made the additional investment worthwhile for me.

[yashima]

I dont dispute the usefulness of IQ screen at all. Just the price jump from IQ140 to IQ160 (1.8x) is so unjustified. You would expect it to be the same factor as from P40 to P65 (1.4x) (and by similar argument, price jump from P40 to IQ140 (1.35x) should be the same factor from P65 to IQ160 (1.75x)). But IQ160 seems to be some ancient magic that set it apart.

[Ken R]

I dont dispute the usefulness of IQ screen at all. Just the price jump from IQ140 to IQ160 (1.8x) is so unjustified. You would expect it to be the same factor as from P40 to P65 (1.4x) (and by similar argument, price jump from P40 to IQ140 (1.35x) should be the same factor from P65 to IQ160 (1.75x)). But IQ160 seems to be some ancient magic that set it apart.

I think you can get an IQ160 for less than what you mentioned making the price jump factor much closer to 1.5x than 1.8x.

[yashima]

Hi Ken R, yes I understand that the private sale market are quite abit cheaper (as low as 1/2 dealer price), and also pricing for different generations are more proportionately reasonable. Just trying to get a dealer perspective in case I really want to have that support and relationship

[Steve Hendrix]

I'm looking for an IQ160 in the used market however pricing of pre-owned from dealers (I believe these pricing controlled by PhaseOne) are a little perplexing, perhaps Doug or Steve could please enlighten me. Here are the prices:

p40+ 9k
p65+ 12.5k
iq140 12-14k
iq160 22k

Everything is reasonable until IQ160. From P40 to P65, it about a factor of 1.4, I really should expect IQ160 is about 1.4 the price of IQ140, or about 16.5 to 19k.


It looks like P65+ is the best value for money now (or IQ140, depending on which features you value)

Hi Yashima -

As you have probably realized, linear pricing models are elusive in the medium format world. However, one of the more consistent scenarios has been a gulf between similar sensors that come in small and large sizes. At launch (Q1, 2011), the IQ140 was listed at $21,990, with the IQ160 listed at $36,990. With pre-owned equipment, perceived and actual value, as well as market attractiveness come more directly into play, when it comes to pricing. P40+ is butting down against similar pixel count MFD products. What also pushes the P65+ closer to the P40+ than the usual gulf between a 44mmx33mm sensor and a 54mmx40mm sensor is the presence of the IQ160 at $21,990 (and sometimes lower). We found that P65+ units that were priced closer to IQ160 did not move.

Note that the $21,990 pricing in most cases reflects a Phase One factory refurbished IQ160 product, and in those instances the cost is more concrete, as these are purchased directly from Phase One. We have had IQ160 pre-owned, certified units that have listed at varying prices, since our cost is not set by anyone other than the agreement between CI and the end user. Current new listed pricing for IQ140 and IQ160 is $15,990 and $28,990, respectively.

I will say that the decision to post pricing on digitalback.com underwent (and still does today) a great deal of internal discussion and debate - pros and cons. We like the idea of being transparent and removing mystery from pricing, but we recognize that it is easy for a competitor to field a call, point to our website and promise to lower the price by xxxx $$ if they decide to buy right then and there.

In most cases, I think that our publishing serves some helpful purpose, but it should be thought of as a guide, IMO. A significant portion of our clients purchase via upgrades or trades, sometimes trading lenses or other items against a digital back, for example. And, we do have the reputation and capability for creative thinking when it comes to getting to a desired price or finding a desired product for a client. It is not that unusual for me to have one single client receive what he wanted at the price he could afford, but be unaware that what made it happen was a simultaneous combination of 2-3 transactions - I even had 4 once - where I have an agreement with one client for a product coming in trade that is going to another client who has a product coming in, and another client who wants a mount swap, who ....

Any time there is the possibility of trading in or upgrading equipment, complexity increases. It can yield to positive outcomes for clients, but communicating that is a challenge.

While we are currently in agreement at CI for posting pricing for all digital backs, I highly recommend calling and speaking to someone (or contact any of our known sales managers). Some products listed are very tight - there isn't any room to do better, but others may have some room. If I have the room, I'm always open to trying to work harder to get under a client's budget. Also, while a lot of the inventory is represented on digitalback.com, I always have in my possession a more complete list that includes models that have not yet been listed, and may not ever make it to the website (often I pre-sell these before they come in for our inspection).


Steve Hendrix
Capture Integration