Luminous Landscape Forum
Equipment & Techniques => Medium Format / Film / Digital Backs – and Large Sensor Photography => Topic started by: Chris Barrett on February 02, 2015, 06:51:16 pm
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I'm thinking about putting my IQ 260 up for sale. I have no idea what these things are going for. Anybody have a clue?
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I'm thinking about putting my IQ 260 up for sale. I have no idea what these things are going for. Anybody have a clue?
What camera system it mounts on?
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How many actuations?
What's your assessment of its condition?
Depending on any historical issues, and its present use-report....you could find the market fluctuating in the mid-to-upper teens....
If it's a Hassy-V...I might even be interested.....
Cheers,
Hank
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Mamiya mount, mint condition & apprx 8500 actuations. Since these were, what, about 35k new... If I couldn't get 25k, I'd just keep it. Thanks for the feedback.
CB
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Since you can buy (privately) a used IQ180 with VAW for around the US$15k mark, I think you'd be hard pushed to get much more than that for a 260. Newer tech indeed, but fewer MPs tends to even out the playing field.
OT: Phase One really needs to sort their 'new' pricing out ... way overdue for a radical drop ... >60% depreciation on new (for an IQ180 with VAW) as soon as money changes hands is just utter, utter madness.
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Phase One IQ260 With DF+ Body and 80mm LS, 3 Year Warranty Excellent £18900
https://dtekuk.wordpress.com/used-equipment-list/
Out of interest: Phase One IQ180 Digital Back, 1 Year Warranty Excellent £12990
These UK prices are subject to +20% sales tax recoverable by a business.
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Sorry for pointing out the obvious but like most things photography Medium Format Digital backs are tools. Like new cars, they are not good financial instruments / investments. Used they are a bit better but basically they are expenses, either 1) Personal, if you are just an aficionado or 2) Business, if you use them to make money (As a Photographer). Like in everything there are some items that are better value than others but ultimately it is a personal choice since most of us Photographers are not only craftsmen but also artists.
That said being that the IQ160 is a stunning back (I own one) the IQ260 is even more so. I for one love the look of the CCD. (I know I know CCD vs CMOS been discussed ad nauseam, beaten to death, etc). The large size of the sensor combined with it's characteristics really make it unique in today's marketplace.
Chris I would first call a dealer to get an idea and talk about options.
You can also put it on ebay and see what happens but it is somewhat of a crapshoot.
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Ken,
It's not really a matter of ROI for me. I've billed about 53k in digital capture fees since trading in the P65+ on the IQ260. It's paid for itself and then some. I just feel like these things ought to be worth more than 50% of the new price. Of course the market is what it is...
CB
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Ken,
It's not really a matter of ROI for me. I've billed about 53k in digital capture fees since trading in the P65+ on the IQ260. It's paid for itself and then some. I just feel like these things ought to be worth more than 50% of the new price. Of course the market is what it is...
CB
Oh sorry Chris that first part of the message wasn't directed at you but others who keep pounding on the same value issues over and over.
Regarding specific numbers Id say an IQ260 like yours is worth over $20k still. I know a lot of people are going to say well this back went for much less etc etc but 1) they don't really know how that transaction went down and the experience of the buyer afterwards and #2) The exception is not the rule. They haven't even tried to get one themselves at those low prices.
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Problem is that the P1 / Silverfleet Capital pricing structure is based around i) the upgrade-merry-go-round (make it so financially painful to get off, you'll stay on 'til the bitter end) and, ii) the notion that every one of their potential clients is shooting covers for Vogue, architecture for Foster & Partners or advertising for Saatchi & Saatchi. If only.
I'm a P1 user; my DB has paid for itself; I still think their pricing is outrageous, and I'll be amazed if the next 20 years will be as easy as the last. I don't know any pros getting into MF, only leaving it (with one going to ULF film - go figure).
Jim
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Upper teens sounds right. I feel your pain, but PhaseOne's grotesque/beautiful margin (depending on your POV) doesn't do much for you in the present resale reality.
With new the CFV-50c having been on sale in Japan for just north of $10K for a while, (until the the global market wised-up and Hassy upped the price), I doubt many consumers will see any sense in spending upwards of $25K for a new back in the future. That kind of caps resale.
I could have had my pick of H4 50s and 60s, and P65+s in the $13K range a year ago. Even that felt like an over-spend. The IQ260 is a gorgeous back for sure, but you'll have to look hard for a buyer to whom the added benefits of the newer generation are worth an extra $10K.
Your best bet might be to consign through a major dealer.
Good luck.
- N.
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Sorry for pointing out the obvious but like most things photography Medium Format Digital backs are tools. Like new cars, they are not good financial instruments / investments. Used they are a bit better but basically they are expenses, either 1) Personal, if you are just an aficionado or 2) Business, if you use them to make money (As a Photographer). Like in everything there are some items that are better value than others but ultimately it is a personal choice since most of us Photographers are not only craftsmen but also artists.
That said being that the IQ160 is a stunning back (I own one) the IQ260 is even more so. I for one love the look of the CCD. (I know I know CCD vs CMOS been discussed ad nauseam, beaten to death, etc). The large size of the sensor combined with it's characteristics really make it unique in today's marketplace.
Chris I would first call a dealer to get an idea and talk about options.
These might be tools as you describe them but it's nice when your tool holds better value when you want to upgrade to a better tool.
You can also put it on ebay and see what happens but it is somewhat of a crapshoot.
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When I tried to sell my IQ260 in China no one even bothered when I asked for $19K. The longer I waited, the more depreciation I suffered. Now Canon has the 50MP 5DS, which means it will even depreciate a lot more.
But that's just my story. You are in a different market and you should be able to find a decent price.
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The price of such new gear is much more difficult than older stuff that gets bought and sold over and over again. While the price of a P45+ is pretty stable, it seems like IQ260 can go for anything. I'd guess that patience is one factor, if you need to sell fast then the right buyer may not be there for you in time and you need to drop the price more than you otherwise should.
I don't think other products like CFV-50c, 135 cameras or the Pentax affects it that much, the market might have changed a bit, but Phase One still stands strong as the prestige brand of high end digital backs and the IQ260 still has a number of unique points and with some patience I think the right buyer will come. It's fullframe, it has long exposure. I have not so good idea of the right price though, although in a private sale it should be considerably lower than a dealer pre-owned sale. Maybe $20-22k?
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I don't think other products like CFV-50c, 135 cameras or the Pentax affects it that much, the market might have changed a bit, but Phase One still stands strong as the prestige brand of high end digital backs and the IQ260 still has a number of unique points and with some patience I think the right buyer will come. It's fullframe, it has long exposure. I have not so good idea of the right price though, although in a private sale it should be considerably lower than a dealer pre-owned sale. Maybe $20-22k?
Of course all the above especially now the new Canon and Sony 50Mpix cameras will have an effect on what the value of used backs go for. These cameras probably have no effect on new sales as the market share who buy new is already so very small. The vast majority of photographers probably have no idea what a phase One camera is other than a news post on sites like dpreview and as Phase One for what ever reason never tried to enter this market with cheaper products in reach of talented real world (enthusiasts) photographers there are not the volume of used buyers around to inflate used prices/demand.
The used price of a MFD back is what price someone is willing to pay for it which is normally way, WAY off its new value and well below the sellers expectations. We (not me any longer as I've already sole my Phase back) can all price our backs at a level we think its worth but reality is it just won't sell. I sold my back at a price I felt was much lover than it was worth but at a price the buyer was happy to pay. I got my money, he got my back at a good price so we were both happy.
One thing to consider Chris, looking at used pricing of my old back now I'm glad I made the sale when I did as I've avoided even more depreciation because the backs sell for much less now. Sure you say yours has paid for itself but its still about maximising the value of something you no longer need to invest back into your business or for new equipment.
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Ok, I'll back off a bit as first hand experience count more. Maybe a quick sell to lose as little as possible is the way to go with a high end back? I have a quite good look at the notches below the highest end, but sales of high end backs are a bit too rare for me to have a good view on how the sales go.
In the notch below highest end the enthusiasts are probably more interested in actually using an MFD camera because it's an MFD camera and having the latest technology is less crucial... if you're only in it for the latest in image quality the competition from below becomes a more obvious factor I guess.
The IQ260 is however still the king in combination with Rodenstock Digaron lenses, I think that should be worth something... Not everything can be about DR, high ISO and live view, right?
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of course if it still has VAW it should be even more interesting to a lot of people!
as they can still change the mount for free
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Chris,
I'm thinking about putting my IQ 260 up for sale. I have no idea what these things are going for. Anybody have a clue?
You could always list the back on ebay but set a Reserve Price at a level you know nobody will pay - say, new, for example. This would allow you to determine the market value for your back without risk of it being undersold...according to your value of 'undersold'.
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Re: the note about "change the mount for free."
As someone who is seriously in the market for one of these backs (Hassy-V, 80mp)......albeit at a manageable price, as indicted previously (mid-to-upper teens).......it's an interesting revelation to have the manufacturer tell me in writing that NO backs have their mounts changed!
The manufacturer simply charges the "would-be-changer" a fee...around $3,500...to receive the back, inspect that back....and then FIND A REPLACEMENT back with comparable quality!!!
You get to add that cost to your purchase price!
There is NO changing of the mount. Sad to say.....
Onward...all.....!!!
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Re: the note about "change the mount for free."
As someone who is seriously in the market for one of these backs (Hassy-V, 80mp)......albeit at a manageable price, as indicted previously (mid-to-upper teens).......it's an interesting revelation to have the manufacturer tell me in writing that NO backs have their mounts changed!
The manufacturer simply charges the "would-be-changer" a fee...around $3,500...to receive the back, inspect that back....and then FIND A REPLACEMENT back with comparable quality!!!
You get to add that cost to your purchase price!
There is NO changing of the mount. Sad to say.....
Onward...all.....!!!
That sucks, as if you have a great back, that is dialed in, ie. (they all aren't the same) and they Phase ships a different back with a new serial number your images may be different. I know for a fact that there are differences between my old P45+ and newer P45+ backs, based on images. I also know that when my IQ160 went back to Phase One 2 years ago for a fix, the loaner I received, also a IQ160, did not have the same shadow recovery abilities. I spent way too much time testing this to make sure. The loaner also had a different tiling issue (with tech lenses) and seemed to have a bit more microlens ripple.
Something to remember
Paul
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Hi,
I was a bit in shock when I have realised that they replace the back instead of changing the mount, as I was under the impression that the Phase backs were modular.
Getting back to the original question, I would suggest checking dealers pricing. The dealers may give some warranty, so I guess that it would be reasonable to sell say about 3000 $US under dealer prices.
Best regards
Erik
That sucks, as if you have a great back, that is dialed in, ie. (they all aren't the same) and they Phase ships a different back with a new serial number your images may be different. I know for a fact that there are differences between my old P45+ and newer P45+ backs, based on images. I also know that when my IQ160 went back to Phase One 2 years ago for a fix, the loaner I received, also a IQ160, did not have the same shadow recovery abilities. I spent way too much time testing this to make sure. The loaner also had a different tiling issue (with tech lenses) and seemed to have a bit more microlens ripple.
Something to remember
Paul
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(OT: through my raw converter work I've looked at many files and I can agree with Paul that backs vary quite a bit, it's not just Phase One it's Leaf and Hassy too. CCDs are quite variable (and I guess the converters too), that's why it's so important with individual calibration, but evenso there are some backs that are a little bit better than others. For most normal use you won't notice though, but when you push them to the limit with tech lenses or advanced post-processing you may see differences for sure.)
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The dealers may give some warranty, so I guess that it would be reasonable to sell say about 3000 $US under dealer prices
With used camera gear, I've always followed the 25:25 rule. Buy used - I want 25% less than retail. Buy privately - I want 25% less than from a dealer. On a big ticket item like a 260, $3k just isn't a big enough differential to go privately - not even close. The dealer is going to ask in the high 20s for a used 260, so at $3k less you'd be in the mid-20s. Sorry, but it simply isn't worth that in today's world. Because of the upgrade system P1 offers, their DBs are priced artificially high. When you look to cash out, you quickly find what the market thinks that digital camera is worth - and the answer is 'not very much' in relative terms. Further, we can bang on until the cows come home about the quality of high MP 35mm DSLRs vs MFDB, but every time one is released, the potential number of people looking to buy a used DB shrinks, as people weigh up the cost vs the return and drift away. With the release of Canon's 50MP camera - soon to be followed by offerings from Sony and Nikon - we're at such a point. Throw in their T/S lenses and Zeiss' Otus lenses and the quality you can obtain at a hugely lower price point is quite amazing, even compared to just a couple of years ago. We've seen an evolution of innovation that MF users can only dream of, and it's naturally going to have a knock on $ effect in the used DB market place.
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Just thought I'd revive this thread with a casual observation that will hopefully save someone a few $.
If you’re buying a new P1 back then it pretty much doesn’t matter where you go in the world to buy it, you’re going to pay about the same. P1’s franchise model of dealership allows them to tightly control what dealer’s can sell new gear for...
...however, with secondhand gear from a P1 dealer this doesn’t seem to be the case - which means, if you’re looking for a used DB it could be worth your while shopping around - and abroad if necessary.
Examples:
Here’s an IQ250 (http://dtek-shop.myshopify.com/collections/used-equipment/products/ex-demo-phase-one-iq250-50mp-digital-back) for $20,500 - by way of comparison, digitalback.com were asking the same for the last Leaf Credo 50 they listed. N.B. This is not much more than this one (http://www.getdpi.com/forum/gear-fs-or-wtb/54812-fs-phase-one-iq250-m-mint.html) for sale privately for $19,500 (a classic case of the private seller not being aware of what their gear is worth and so subsequently not putting enough daylight (25% at least) between them and a dealer).
And here’s an IQ260 (http://dtek-shop.myshopify.com/collections/used-equipment/products/phase-one-iq260-in-hasselblad-v-fitting) for $22,000 - digitalback.com are currently asking $22,000 for the IQ160. N.B. This is not much more than this one (http://www.getdpi.com/forum/gear-fs-or-wtb/54990-fs-phase-one-iq260-mint-very-low-mileage.html) for sale privately for $20,000 - (again, a case of the private seller not being aware of what their gear is worth).
And to round this all off, here’s the pick of the bunch - an IQ280 (http://www.teamworkphoto.com/used-phase-iq280-mafd-fitting-digital-back-p-19848.html) for $25,000 - again, by way of comparison, digitalback.com are asking $28,000 for an IQ180.
The moral of the story - shop around - know what the gear is worth (not what someone is asking) - and get a good deal.
Jim
P.S. Kudos to dealers who list prices - digitalback.com, DTEK etc. - and a big thumbs-down to dealers who still (incredibly) say 'phone for price' - digitaltransitions etc.
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If you’re buying a new P1 back then it pretty much doesn’t matter where you go in the world to buy it, you’re going to pay about the same. P1’s franchise model of dealership allows them to tightly control what dealer’s can sell new gear for...
I can't agree with this. While a new IQ260 was being listed at $33K USD in the UK (excluding VAT), in China you could buy new for only $25K USD. Even in the UK you can get very different pricing among different dealers, at the scale of around $3K USD.
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The moral of the story - shop around - know what the gear is worth (not what someone is asking) - and get a good deal.
Jim
P.S. Kudos to dealers who list prices - digitalback.com, DTEK etc. - and a big thumbs-down to dealers who still (incredibly) say 'phone for price' - digitaltransitions etc.
I agree absolutely re pricing transparency or lack of it but do note the prices you quote from DTEK UK are without our "sales tax", VAT. Now as a VAT registered UK or EU business you can claim the 20% tax on those prices back as can an overseas buyer, which is why they quote them that way (as well as making them look less expensive superficially) The Procentre UK (mainly Hasselblad) does the same but private UK individuals cannot claim back that tax.
So, looking as a private person at the private sale I see it as 20% less than the dealer (complicated because if I did buy from the USA I would need to pay that tax on import, what global market?) I would not pay VAT on a private sale within the EU.
BTW DTEK gave me excellent service recently on a new battery and port cover, I have no gripe with them at all.
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VAT is a big thing in EU for private sales. When selling private individual to private individual, there's no requirement to pay VAT at least not here in Sweden where the VAT is as high as 25%, which of course makes private sales for me as a private individual a lot more attractive than they otherwise would be.
I just sold my fresh Aptus 75 for €2600 after being on sale since February. I hoped to get more, but it's a buyers market and I've noticed a quite big move down in value of the entry level backs the last two years, probably both due to competition from below and that CMOS is now available in MFD format making the old CCDs suddenly look old. I don't know how much high end is affected though. For recent backs there's upgrade programs which makes the backs valuable even if the back itself may not seem as attractive as before from a technology aspect.
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While a new IQ260 was being listed at $33K USD in the UK (excluding VAT), in China you could buy new for only $25K USD…
Interesting - that’s a significant saving - wasn’t aware of such a price difference in China - must brush up on my Mandarin so I can browse those websites...
I agree absolutely re pricing transparency or lack of it but do note the prices you quote from DTEK UK are without our "sales tax”…
Appreciate that, but as someone who can claim sales tax back, I only compare price ex-sales tax, otherwise it becomes a case of trying to compare apples with bananas with oranges etc. So, when you remove sales tax from the equation, the price differences come to the fore and are significant. Everyone says the UK is expensive - well, not in comparison to the US when it comes to buying a used DB from a P1 dealer. Now, who would have thought that - not me. Just goes to show.
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I can't agree with this. While a new IQ260 was being listed at $33K USD in the UK (excluding VAT), in China you could buy new for only $25K USD. Even in the UK you can get very different pricing among different dealers, at the scale of around $3K USD.
Similarly, I was proposed a few years back from an Asia dealer deals on Leaf backs more than 10,000 US$ lower than the price in Japan (at that time Japan prices were a total rip off, don't know today).
Cheers,
Bernard
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Sounds like there's a Chinese State subsidy on digital backs.
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More like open market competition...
Erik
Sounds like there's a Chinese State subsidy on digital backs.
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A quick look at foundergt.com - one of P1s dealers in Hong Kong, gives the following (all ex sales tax, US dollars):
IQ150 - $25.6k
IQ180 - $32.5k
IQ250 - $31k
IQ280 - $38k
IQ350 - $34.4k
IQ360 - $35.3k
IQ380 - $42k
Compared to digitalback.com :
IQ150 - $28k
IQ180 - $36k
IQ250 - $36k
IQ280 - not listed
IQ350 - $36k
IQ360 - $37k
IQ380 - $44k
Sure, there are price differences (biggest being the $5k for the IQ250) - but I wouldn’t say any of them are deal-breakingly-big - especially when you take into account exchange rates etc. Certainly none is large enough to warrant me getting on a plane and going to Hong Kong, so for all practical intents and purposes, the prices are ‘equivalent’.
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I'm looking for an IQ160 in the used market however pricing of pre-owned from dealers (I believe these pricing controlled by PhaseOne) are a little perplexing, perhaps Doug or Steve could please enlighten me. Here are the prices:
p40+ 9k
p65+ 12.5k
iq140 12-14k
iq160 22k
Everything is reasonable until IQ160. From P40 to P65, it about a factor of 1.4, I really should expect IQ160 is about 1.4 the price of IQ140, or about 16.5 to 19k.
It looks like P65+ is the best value for money now (or IQ140, depending on which features you value)
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I'm looking for an IQ160 in the used market however pricing of pre-owned from dealers (I believe these pricing controlled by PhaseOne) are a little perplexing, perhaps Doug or Steve could please enlighten me. Here are the prices:
p40+ 9k
p65+ 12.5k
iq140 12-14k
iq160 22k
Everything is reasonable until IQ160. From P40 to P65, it about a factor of 1.4, I really should expect IQ160 is about 1.4 the price of IQ140, or about 16.5 to 19k.
It looks like P65+ is the best value for money now (or IQ140, depending on which features you value)
When I was in the market for MF Digital 2 years ago I considered a P+ back, briefly, decided on the IQ160 and was glad. Th IQ chasis / screen / interface is just eons ahead of the P+ which feel very very dated. Even though the sensor of the P65+ and the IQ160 is basically identical the functionality of the back is worlds apart. The IQ back is faster and MUCH easier to browse and check images for composition and focus (100%). The rudimentary live view of the IQ160 works well enough for composing images. Nice to have for sure.
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Personally I can't stand paying $12k extra for user interface improvements that make the digital back almost as advanced as my $300 phone :), while image quality and sensor features stay the same. I'd surely go for the P65+, and stay with an ancient GUI still some time.
It's personal though. Before I thought 100% focus check would be critical to me (I'm focusing on ground glass on my tech cam), but I've noted that with experience I less and less often actually zoom to 100%, and I don't feel I have focus issues, even now with my 6um pixel back.
The CMOS feature set on the other hand, that's a different story... if the next CMOS generation is BSI with wide angular response, I'll start saving up!
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I tested an aptus and a credo side by side. Within 10 minutes, I made the decision to go with the Credo.
The improvements in user experience between those two generations are huge and made the additional investment worthwhile for me.
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I dont dispute the usefulness of IQ screen at all. Just the price jump from IQ140 to IQ160 (1.8x) is so unjustified. You would expect it to be the same factor as from P40 to P65 (1.4x) (and by similar argument, price jump from P40 to IQ140 (1.35x) should be the same factor from P65 to IQ160 (1.75x)). But IQ160 seems to be some ancient magic that set it apart.
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I dont dispute the usefulness of IQ screen at all. Just the price jump from IQ140 to IQ160 (1.8x) is so unjustified. You would expect it to be the same factor as from P40 to P65 (1.4x) (and by similar argument, price jump from P40 to IQ140 (1.35x) should be the same factor from P65 to IQ160 (1.75x)). But IQ160 seems to be some ancient magic that set it apart.
I think you can get an IQ160 for less than what you mentioned making the price jump factor much closer to 1.5x than 1.8x.
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Hi Ken R, yes I understand that the private sale market are quite abit cheaper (as low as 1/2 dealer price), and also pricing for different generations are more proportionately reasonable. Just trying to get a dealer perspective in case I really want to have that support and relationship
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I'm looking for an IQ160 in the used market however pricing of pre-owned from dealers (I believe these pricing controlled by PhaseOne) are a little perplexing, perhaps Doug or Steve could please enlighten me. Here are the prices:
p40+ 9k
p65+ 12.5k
iq140 12-14k
iq160 22k
Everything is reasonable until IQ160. From P40 to P65, it about a factor of 1.4, I really should expect IQ160 is about 1.4 the price of IQ140, or about 16.5 to 19k.
It looks like P65+ is the best value for money now (or IQ140, depending on which features you value)
Hi Yashima -
As you have probably realized, linear pricing models are elusive in the medium format world. However, one of the more consistent scenarios has been a gulf between similar sensors that come in small and large sizes. At launch (Q1, 2011), the IQ140 was listed at $21,990, with the IQ160 listed at $36,990. With pre-owned equipment, perceived and actual value, as well as market attractiveness come more directly into play, when it comes to pricing. P40+ is butting down against similar pixel count MFD products. What also pushes the P65+ closer to the P40+ than the usual gulf between a 44mmx33mm sensor and a 54mmx40mm sensor is the presence of the IQ160 at $21,990 (and sometimes lower). We found that P65+ units that were priced closer to IQ160 did not move.
Note that the $21,990 pricing in most cases reflects a Phase One factory refurbished IQ160 product, and in those instances the cost is more concrete, as these are purchased directly from Phase One. We have had IQ160 pre-owned, certified units that have listed at varying prices, since our cost is not set by anyone other than the agreement between CI and the end user. Current new listed pricing for IQ140 and IQ160 is $15,990 and $28,990, respectively.
I will say that the decision to post pricing on digitalback.com underwent (and still does today) a great deal of internal discussion and debate - pros and cons. We like the idea of being transparent and removing mystery from pricing, but we recognize that it is easy for a competitor to field a call, point to our website and promise to lower the price by xxxx $$ if they decide to buy right then and there.
In most cases, I think that our publishing serves some helpful purpose, but it should be thought of as a guide, IMO. A significant portion of our clients purchase via upgrades or trades, sometimes trading lenses or other items against a digital back, for example. And, we do have the reputation and capability for creative thinking when it comes to getting to a desired price or finding a desired product for a client. It is not that unusual for me to have one single client receive what he wanted at the price he could afford, but be unaware that what made it happen was a simultaneous combination of 2-3 transactions - I even had 4 once - where I have an agreement with one client for a product coming in trade that is going to another client who has a product coming in, and another client who wants a mount swap, who ....
Any time there is the possibility of trading in or upgrading equipment, complexity increases. It can yield to positive outcomes for clients, but communicating that is a challenge.
While we are currently in agreement at CI for posting pricing for all digital backs, I highly recommend calling and speaking to someone (or contact any of our known sales managers). Some products listed are very tight - there isn't any room to do better, but others may have some room. If I have the room, I'm always open to trying to work harder to get under a client's budget. Also, while a lot of the inventory is represented on digitalback.com, I always have in my possession a more complete list that includes models that have not yet been listed, and may not ever make it to the website (often I pre-sell these before they come in for our inspection).
Steve Hendrix
Capture Integration
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Just had a look at Steve's site and found this https://www.digitalback.com/product/credo-50-cambo-actus-db-bundle/
Had to check again to believe the price was not a mistake.
That's an excellent deal!
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Just had a look at Steve's site and found this https://www.digitalback.com/product/credo-50-cambo-actus-db-bundle/
Had to check again to believe the price was not a mistake.
That's an excellent deal!
I would have to agree. Unfortunately, it is only for Hasselblad V Series Interface, but the whole bundle is $2,000 less than a Leaf Credo 50 by itself in any other interface. And if someone didn't want the Cambo Actus Kit, we could probably work something out.
Steve Hendrix
Capture Integration
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Just had a look at Steve's site and found this https://www.digitalback.com/product/credo-50-cambo-actus-db-bundle/
Had to check again to believe the price was not a mistake.
That's an excellent deal!
An attempt to counter the 50c pricing @ 15K. With the Aptus it's a nice starting point for sure.
Paul
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http://www.teamworkphoto.com/product_info.php?products_id=19989
Same deal in the UK.
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Hi Ken R, yes I understand that the private sale market are quite abit cheaper (as low as 1/2 dealer price), and also pricing for different generations are more proportionately reasonable. Just trying to get a dealer perspective in case I really want to have that support and relationship
Yea. I purchased my IQ160 from a dealer (DT in NYC) and I highly recommend that path instead of a private sale (specially with the higher end backs).
I also agree that it's best to call a dealer and see what they have to offer. Not one click easy shopping as in B&H but not laborious either. Worth it IMHO.
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An IQ160 used, privately, is around about the $12k mark all day long right now (probably less by the time I’ve finished writing this post).
From a US dealer, its around about the $21k mark.
The sensor tech is 7 years old - same as in the P65+ - which you can pick up for under $8k privately. So, if you buy an IQ160 from a dealer you're paying $13k for the interface. That's a lot of moolah.
Other things aside (do you exchange Christmas cards?), whether or not you can get a deal depends on where that used IQ160 on the dealer’s shelf has come from. Refurbished from P1, there’s not a lot of wiggle room. As a trade-in as part of some special offer upgrade program, again there's not a lot of room to move. As a regular walk-in-off-the-street-trade-in then there’s more room to make a deal. I’ve seen figures quoted as low as $10k as the dealer trade-in value for an IQ180 - which is then listed at ~$28k - so you can see how much room a dealer has to play with.
Right now isn’t a good time to be buying a used DB privately - P1 have their IQ3XX upgrade offer in place until (beginning?) of July, so DBs like the IQ160 have a temporarily artificially high value (look around the net, you’ll see people trying to sell gear saying,”..asking $21k, but worth $22k as a trade-in…”).
I would wait until the ‘mad rush’ (as if) is over and then post a wanted ad for an IQ160 with warranty (so you know you’re covered - that said, these things are bomb-proof) and see what appears. If someone with an IQ160 + warranty doesn’t take ~$12k from you, they’re delusional. We’ve passed the tipping point with MFD (‘peak MFD’) - at least via the traditional suppliers P1 and HB - so it’s always going to be a buyers market for used gear like this (the A7RII + Actus might even see me dump my MF gear - need to wait until the camera’s released though). Maybe P1 will start retiring trade-ins, or trickle them onto the used market (even more) slowly in order to keep their used value as high as they can. Who knows.
Jim
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No affiliation whatsoever, but I noticed that digitalback.com (https://www.digitalback.com/product-category/0-pre-owned-digital-backs/) (aka Capture Integration) is now selling used IQ180s with VA warranties (not specified how much remains, but any is better than none) for $18k. Still a good chunk of change, but for dealer pricing it breaks new ground (in the US at least; I've seen used IQ280s in Europe through P1 dealers for $18k).
Given that a private sale should be at least 25% less than a dealer, this puts private sales of IQ180s at around the $13.5k mark with VA warranty remaining. Without, and you're probably looking at significantly less.
Jim
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I believe that it was a huge mistake by some MFDB makers to relate their products with resolution (as such) only... The more the market realizes that it is using more resolution than it needs, the more the S/H market will be under pressure...
Hi end photography market has been established by the film days to be led by pros, if there is nothing on an offering that a pro would appreciate as to add to his photography, the offering is condemned to vanish... Additionally, if the offering is only related to a fraction of tasks of what a pro does, the pro will look for alternative offerings that are directly related as to be integrated into as many of the tasks he performs... old or new, is meaningless to a pro as far as it is reliable and doesn't restrict his skills...
Additionally, pros don't like to be directed (maybe even trapped - blackmailed) by "closed" system offerings that will make them future dependent on the maker's decisions... Hasselblad's past example, should have taught many others on the sequences of such policies... A maker has to remember that he depends on the customers... not the other way around... if the customers find that they paid more than they should as to buy a product and they can't have a "reasonable" loss as to sell it... they won't only not reinvest on the same kind of product, but they will additionally direct others as to not to do so... and those customers belong to groups of people that "know" each other well...
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Difficult not to agree - in a world where most images are (increasingly only) viewed on smartphones, iPads and monitors, huge MP cameras don’t make much sense to most pros. But a few will still need them, and the slack can be taken up by enthusiasts (in certain parts of the world in particular) who want the luxury/bragging rights of using ‘the best’.
I noticed that Pentax’s latest lens offering for its MF line covers a full 6x4.5 frame, so I would imagine we’re not far off seeing the appearance of a full frame 75MP - 100MP CMOS chip. If that’s the case, it would be natural for the used prices of the current crop of 80MP DBs to drop further still.
Jim
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Four IQ160's have recently sold on Ebay from $9000 to $13600 . That is the market range in my opinion.
One IQ260 with warranty sold for $17000
Anything over $20K is sitting and not selling.
Chris, maybe a dealer is best, as they have the relations with the outfits that deal with dealers. As long as they don't kill you on the commision. But I would sell it privately if its within a thousand. Anytime I have delt with a buyer, or a seller its often been a pleasure to deal with a private sale. I'm sure the flip of this coin is true to some.
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Chris (the OP) sold the 260 a while back, but the thread still has use for those interested in buying a used MFDB.
For me, the benchmark (in the US at least) is the fact that you can buy a used IQ180 with VA warranty from a reputable dealer for $18k.
On that basis - if I was looking to buy privately - the following is what I would expect to pay:
IQ180 - $13.5k
IQ160 - $11k
IQ140 - $6k
Figures based on % of new retail price - e.g. IQ180 is $36k, IQ160 is $29k (=80%), and IQ140 is $16k (=45%)
Most notable eBay sales of late include:
Phase One IQ180 with VA warranty plus DF645 and 80mm, 110mm lenses for $18k.
Phase One IQ180 with DF645 Body and 75-150mm lens for $15.5k.
Whoever paid $13.5k for the IQ160 needs their head examined … you can get one from a dealer with VA warranty for $1.5k more. Makes no sense to take a chance on eBay for less than the price that the VA warranty adds. Curious that the buyer for such a big ticket item never left any feedback...
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Since I have seen some reference in the recent revival of this thread to pricing on our digitalback.com website, I want to clarify that some of these new low prices are specific to an auction acquisition we made within the past 2 weeks, and that yes, we were able to purchase these units for less than we would normally purchase the same refurbished model from Phase One. As a result, we passed on some of the lower cost savings to our clients. However, these models are exceptions to the normal dealer pricing and only available in the remaining small quantity.
Steve Hendrix
Capture Integration
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It's nice that you passed on the savings, but it's a shame that it's only temporary.
The IQ1 series is almost 5 years old, and in the meantime Phase One have released the IQ2 and IQ3 series backs. $18k from a dealer for a used IQ180 is where the pricing should be all day long given that these are selling privately for ~$14k. The fact that you can pick up a used IQ280 from a P1 dealer in europe makes even that $18k look kinda steep...
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Buckshot, do you have a vested interest in this matter? Why are you so obsessed with Phase One pricing? Every time I see you, you are trying to push down the price, citing some one off Ebay auction or some one time promotion. While it can be helpful if done right, most of the time, you would invade seller's post in For Sale, who are your fellow photographers, and preaching them how they over-value their equipments, with absolutely no interest in purchasing yourself.
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I think its very helpful for him doing that, it helps us that are in the market have an idea.
We are the fellow photographers that want to also purchase. And if its a market value you look for, Ebay is a good ref for getting an idea of what things are(when its apples to apples).
Also we do see the flip side often as well on dealers that do list these tools for a chunk more than what they are worth. It also can help them influence the makers to be more innovative.
Their business is to sell, they maybe there for some folks in terms of support, but for most folks that are reselling, it is not their business to profit from the sale of them. Sure I want the best resale on my old back, but the dealers often pay less to buy them than the market value, and the only way they can do soemthing is when trading in. I think its a good thing to find the lowest price we can to purchase. That is helping the fellow photographer. Not the other way around. Most folks got good use of their gear, why not pass the savings on to other fellow photographers?
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Buckshot, do you have a vested interest in this matter...
Henrik (https://dk.linkedin.com/in/henrik-h%C3%A5konsson-9b244435), is that you ?
You do realize that the thread is called, ’Used digi back pricing ?’ (and I didn't start it) don’t you ? Given that’s the case, take a wild stab at what’s going to be discussed. Common sense should tell you what to expect. But wait, you actually posted to this thread when you were looking for an IQ160, ’…looking for an IQ160 in the used market however pricing of pre-owned from dealers (I believe these pricing controlled by PhaseOne) are a little perplexing…’ (my emphasis). Maybe this discussion is useful to you ? But then again, if you’re not into buying privately, probably not - just pony up the sticker price and move on.
Who doesn't have a vested interest in saving money ? If poor little old Phase One is feeling picked on, they needn’t worry - I like to save money wherever and whenever I can (lighting, tech support, storage, insurance, studio hire - you name it); in this economy it keeps me in business. I also have a vested interest in seeing the MF sector survive - for my personal work I still find MF capture (even from an ‘old’ P series DB) on a tech cam crazily addictive. That said, know any pros of late that have got into MF ? No, me neither - in the past two years I’ve seen a number get out entirely (of ownership). On the rare occasion they need MF (i.e. the AD had a brain fart and insisted), they hire the kit. Schneider have gotten out of the game (wrt their digitar series), Sinar are (were?) in trouble, Leaf went (as an independent entity), Contax have gone, Rollei too, Mamiya were subsumed by P1, Pentax by Ricoh, Phase One had cash flow issues, and who knows what shape Hasselblad are in. Right now enthusiasts who want the luxury/bragging rights of using ‘the best’ are probably keeping the sector going, but what happens when they eventually tire of carrying around 2.5kg of gear to take holiday snaps ? In order to guarantee the long term health of MFD, the cost of entry needs to be minimized. That means the latest body + DB for under $15k. Better still, $10k. Like what Pentax are doing. Hasselblad as well with their CFV-50c.
If I’m interested in buying gear myself through a forum, I PM - so how can you know whether I am or not ? Maybe I should copy you in next time ? If I do post in a thread it’s simply to clarify a point in the listing or give some advice, especially when a newbie joins the site and their first post is to list a piece of gear for tens of thousands of dollars. LuLa is a community of photographers, and if I was about to get screwed and pay $10k over the odds (unlikely, admittedly), I hope someone would interject. Equally, I’m not going to sit by and see someone else taken for a ride.
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+1
any way phase one price today are totally fake and unreal ...
if you think that you can buy new with full warranty a hasselblad cfv50c for less than 10000 usd...
make up your mind.
best.
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The current MFDB market is a total insane... It is based on dealing "used" backs on which there will be never shortage as there are many ways into "baptize" a new back as S/H at 40% of the price of a (same) "new" one... As a result, "new" prices are there almost entirely as to sell expensive on organizations and the "victims" that want to "trade" their older back for a ..."new" one... The fact that older backs (that are not in production) "disappear" from the market entirely (which means that the trade of price was enough to leave profit for all the maker and the dealer), although there was a "good" discount offered for the older back, proves the above....
Think about it, a S/H FF DSLR, if in production, will sell for at least 65% of its new price... With MFDBs, it's anywhere between 30-40%... It proves a lot doesn't it? I think that the CF-V 50c back pricing with respect to Credo 50, IQ-150, IQ-250, or even the 645-Z new price, should also make many as to think better when deciding to "invest" on a new back.... I am really curious to see how some will (try to) respond (explain?), to the above described examples...
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pentax 645z new price less than 7000 usd !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! ;) ;)
make up your mind...
best.
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The whole sector is in a total dead end anyway.
Most of the pros shooting the backs do it for the leaf shutter lenses for beauty/fashion. They shoot those backs at f11 because of the applcations (and AF/MF limitations for productive work) and at those f stops 40mp and 80mp are very hard to distinghuish due to diffraction.
More resolution in future backs will deliver zero real world value, yet the upgrade prices will continue to be stratospheric... which only pleases one category of buyers... the luxury crowd.
Cheers,
Bernard
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I wonder..... Is that for real?
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Hasselblad-H5D-50C-Wifi-/231742905132?hash=item35f4f41b2c:g:SZcAAOSw14xWMhJW....
It seems that in Hasselblad they have realized that people aren't stupid... finally! ...it was about time!
EDIT: If I'm not mistaken (hardly the case) this is exactly equal to a P1 XF camera + IQ 350 back.... and it is a listing from an official Hasselblad dealer for new with full warranty...
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@buckshot:
As I said, your coverage of sold price is very helpful when done in the right spirit. However, many times I have seen you invade seller's post before anyone asks for your opinion/advice. Your generalisation of pricing based on one-off sale is not correct either, pricing also varies greatly from mount to mount. If you kindly point me to the direction of getting a Contax mount IQ160 for 11k, I would like to personally send you 1k as gratitude or I can send to a charity of your choice.
We all know the MFDB market needs to transform to remain relevant, and one aspect is pricing. But protest to the manufacturer with your money, not your fellow photographers, most have bought them for substantially more.
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@buckshot:
As I said, your coverage of sold price is very helpful when done in the right spirit. However, many times I have seen you invade seller's post before anyone asks for your opinion/advice. Your generalisation of pricing based on one-off sale is not correct either, pricing also varies greatly from mount to mount. If you kindly point me to the direction of getting a Contax mount IQ160 for 11k, I would like to personally send you 1k as gratitude or I can send to a charity of your choice.
We all know the MFDB market needs to transform to remain relevant, and one aspect is pricing. But protest to the manufacturer with your money, not your fellow photographers, most have bought them for substantially more.
The reason that IQ-160 are difficult to get in Contax mount is that there aren't many made, however, it is very possible if one gets an IQ-160 with the value added warranty, he can use it as to have the back replaced with one in Contax mount for free...
By the way, I believe that IQ backs where heavily promoted in Mamiya mount (which is a very reasonable thing to do since Mamiya was a recent family company addition at the days) and thus there aren't many made in other mounts than M645.... Contax mount is as hard to find as Hasselblad-V and even Hasselblad H are not widely available (although more than Contax or V), since only some pros insisted using Hasselblad H platform but with Phase One back because of the sensor size and the ability to shoot in exposure + mode....
Specifically for Contax, the users didn't have a good reason as to use IQ-160 instead of P-65+ and this is because the Contax needs an external cable for it to be used in tethered mode as to be "directed" from the back to activate its shutter... So, I suspect that IQ backs on-screen LV may not be (if one knows for sure please share) able to work with the Contax... It is the same reason why one can't use the Contax in multishot mode at all with multishot able backs unless he uses the appropriate external cable as to trigger the shutter... It seems that the CPU on the Contax body, does have the command as to synchronize its shutter while waking up the back, but it doesn't work (through the CPU) the other way around...
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I wonder..... Is that for real?
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Hasselblad-H5D-50C-Wifi-/231742905132?hash=item35f4f41b2c:g:SZcAAOSw14xWMhJW....
It seems that in Hasselblad they have realized that people aren't stupid... finally! ...it was about time!
EDIT: If I'm not mistaken (hardly the case) this is exactly equal to a P1 XF camera + IQ 350 back.... and it is a listing from an official Hasselblad dealer for new with full warranty...
For sure a great price.
Item is closed now. Or sure if it was pulled or sold cannot tell.
But if it was placed by a dealer which is implied, as a one time listing not surprised by this. End of year type sale. Could have been old inventory, demo etc.
If they keep running such deals, to me that puts things in a bit different perspective.
Paul C
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Euro price for H5DcWifi was 14375 this week in Paris.
Edmund
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@Yashima ’...many times I have seen you invade seller's post before anyone asks for your opinion/advice...’ (my emphasis).
*sigh*
Listen, if you’re just going to make stuff up, I’m done with you. I’ve got 249 posts, of which ~10 in the ‘for sale’ section mention a $ amount - and that includes replies (as you have done) to people are asking for help pricing stuff, trying to find stuff, or where a listing needs clarification. I’m not going to apologize for any of those. Caveat Emptor is all well and good, but if (IMHO) there’s the potential for someone being taken for a ride (either here or in the 'real world'), I’ll speak up (or act), and be damned.
Did you read Steve’s post after mine ? That pricing is only temporary, which means they’ll be putting it back to ~$23k. Using the 80% rule, this would put an IQ160 at around $18k. Digitalback.com have a couple for sale right now for $15k with VAW - buy one of these and swap it out to a Contax mount. It's what, $3k to do that otherwise. Equally, since Yashica stopped servicing Contax gear this year, you may see some used stuff being dumped privately. Contax users are pretty loyal, but business is business.
I really don’t know what it is about the culture of a particular part of the user base engendered by Phase One, but over the years any criticism at all (either real or perceived) - especially about price - really gets people hot under the collar. To anyone reading this thread who has dropped $$$$ on nice shiny new Phase One gear (or HB etc.) because you want (or need) it to make the sort of images you want (or need) ... what do you care about threads like this ? There are plenty of threads out there of the type, 'I just bought such and such / My such and such arrived today etc.' where you can get the group hug you seek. Give the rest of us - who are looking to save a buck - a break from your angst.
Jim
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@Theodoros: Yes I want to do the same thing but that is subjected to availability. A few times I checked there had ever been one Contax IQ160/180 at any dealers' and that was gone before I can do anything. Phase One just wont make you a new one. So the chance of doing that is pretty slim.
@buckshot: I really don't mind (price) criticism toward Phase One. I have owned 4 backs so far and had never bought directly from dealers myself. What bothers me is, perhaps unjustifyingly, a somewhat unkindness of you toward private sellers. Its not nice being told your kit worth nothing (or has to be priced at some level dictated by some other sale). Anyhow, I do appreciate your knowledge of pricing. I guess I want to say, use it more tactfully. I happen to think of selling off part of my kits soon. Any advice is appreciated via PM ;-)
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Euro price for H5DcWifi was 14375 this week in Paris.
Edmund
Yeah... it seems that they've stopped all that fake "trade in" practice of the past and they've left dealers free to deal with trades as they wish... As a result, they don't collect older equipment anymore as to withdraw it from the S/H market and they've removed all the related charges that where on the final price.... It also seems that they promote heavily all the products that are related with the 50mp Cmos censor and the H5X camera while they pay less attention to their CCD based products if any at all... They even started selling the (same Cmos sensor) 50MS & 200MS multishot backs as stand alone backs!
It also seems that they are not satisfied at all with Dalsa letting them down with respect to P1 for full size sensors and they've decided to move onto exclusive for them future Cmos censors as Leica already did, than use sensors in the future that P1 has also access too...
IMO, the current Cmos sensor will soon be the base for their "entry level" offerings (at even lower prices - I expect the H5D-50 to take the place of H5D-40).... I think P1 has to react soon by completely changing their pricing policy & by "opening" XF to customers that whant to keep their older backs as to directly compete with Hasselblad.... Otherwise, if there will be a new, larger, exclusive to Hasselblad, Cmos sensor coming soon, P1 may look less appealing than ever to the market...
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@Theodoros: Yes I want to do the same thing but that is subjected to availability. A few times I checked there had ever been one Contax IQ160/180 at any dealers' and that was gone before I can do anything. Phase One just wont make you a new one. So the chance of doing that is pretty slim.
Do you (or another) know for sure if on screen LV of an IQ back works with the Contax? Because if it doesn't, P-65+ seems a far better option price wise...
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Do you (or another) know for sure if on screen LV of an IQ back works with the Contax? Because if it doesn't, P-65+ seems a far better option price wise...
it was a show related "sale price". I think this is the real going price.
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OK... IQ backs on screen LV does work with all third party cameras that it can be attached on... (Contax 645 too). It is not a cable required either with the Contax as one has to activate the back for LV and shoot the camera set on "B" for as long as it is required. The external cable to connect the MFDB with the remote release socket of the camera, is only needed when one uses the Contax 645 & IQ back in tethered mode as to remotely trigger the camera's shutter from C1 software.
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OK... IQ backs on screen LV does work with all third party cameras that it can be attached on... (Contax 645 too). It is not a cable required either with the Contax as one has to activate the back for LV and shoot the camera set on "B" for as long as it is required. The external cable to connect the MFDB with the remote release socket of the camera, is only needed when one uses the Contax 645 & IQ back in tethered mode as to remotely trigger the camera's shutter from C1 software.
Too bad that Live View on CCD Phase Backs, is pretty much worthless, at least outdoors. Just takes way too long to dampen out the file, finally gave up on using it even with a vario ND. The battery drain is bad enough but watch just how "hot" your CCD back will get in a 85 degree outdoor day, shooting outdoors on a sunny day. The increase in noise is exponential. It takes about 30 minutes to cool off also. This is a IQ260, but I have tried, 180 and 280, both get hot fast with a lot of LV.
and if you change anything or move the camera, it all starts over. Indoors, can be very effective.
Paul C
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Too bad that Live View on CCD Phase Backs, is pretty much worthless, at least outdoors. Just takes way too long to dampen out the file, finally gave up on using it even with a vario ND. The battery drain is bad enough but watch just how "hot" your CCD back will get in a 85 degree outdoor day, shooting outdoors on a sunny day. The increase in noise is exponential. It takes about 30 minutes to cool off also. This is a IQ260, but I have tried, 180 and 280, both get hot fast with a lot of LV.
and if you change anything or move the camera, it all starts over. Indoors, can be very effective.
Paul C
I'm aware of the heating the sensor problem Paul, it is the same with my Sinarback 54H back where the LV is surprisingly good (especially if one considers the age of the back) and can be great if one uses Sinar's LC shutter with it, with my other back, (the CF-39MS) LV is practically useless.
IMO, with CCD backs one is best to direct the scene through the VF and even focus, then use the LV only to nail focus for 4-5 max 6 secs...
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At one time or another we are all buyers and sellers. Most pros have the safety net of the DB having payed for itself (in terms of capture fees etc.) when they come to sell, so they don’t sweat it. Enthusiasts and some pros (depending on how they bill) naturally fixate on what they paid for the DB when it comes time to move it, and completely lose sight of what’s happened to the market in the meantime.
Obviously not all gear is created equal. Good lenses retain value. Cameras like Ebony, Alpa etc. retain value. But … pretty much any piece of electronic gear is going to zero. And that depreciation is accelerated when servicing comes to an end. Fixing a field camera yourself is doable. A digital back ? Forget it.
Before I go and lie down in a darkened room, my advice to anyone selling a DB is:
1) Recognize that it’s a buyers market, and will stay that way. It’s not going to change. Ever. No matter how long you hold out. No, really, it isn’t.
2) Do your research and ask a realistic price. What you paid back in the day is irrelevant. I know, it was a lot. It hurts. Take it on the chin.
3) Be prepared to move on price, ‘A bird in the hand…’ etc.
Beyond the natural price free fall of anything with a microchip in it, the deck is loaded against sellers because it’s never been easier for buyers to find out what gear is selling for on a user-to-user basis. When I started out you were limited to the small ads in the back of the popular photography magazines to find out the (user-to-user) asking price. Then you would look at the dealer ads for their selling price. Then you would phone the dealer and find out what their buying price was. Then, armed with all that, it was down to you to figure out what your bottom line should be. Today, you have dealer websites, internet archives, eBay, and of course … a forum like this.
Look at an IQ180 as a final example. A P1 dealer (who you are on good terms with) - might - on a good day - offer ~$10k trade-in. A non-P1 dealer, less. Note this is 'trade-in', neither really wants to buy it from you. They'll probably offer to sell it on commission at a push rather than part with the cash. The dealer is ultimately the seller’s buyer of last resort, and sadly for the seller, both the (private) buyer and the dealer know this. Add into the mix the fact that buyers for this kit are few and far between, and it would just be plain stupid for the seller to turn down any good private offer in the low ‘teens. That’s why these are selling for $14k right now. And that's probably too high. Soon that figure will be $12k. Within 6 months that will be $10k. Lamenting this fact, or resenting those who air these things in public, is just a waste of time and energy. Don’t shoot the messenger. Move on. It is what it is.
Jim
P.S. Yashima - having looked back at my posts, I think ‘unkindness’ is a bit, er, unkind. I never just pluck a figure out of thin air; on the rare occasion I mention a $ amount, there is always a source. We'll just have to agree to disagree on this one.
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Well said... but for part of the market to ask the same price as an H5D-50c Wi-fi combination, (which is the direct alternative to an XF + IQ 350 and probably better in some details), for a 5 year old back is totally insane... Especially if its backed up by people "raving" (trolling?) all over the web for Hasselblad's collapse and P1 (their funboy symbol)... buying Hasselblad!
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and those few that do get the DB for a really low price. It only looks really low in comparison to the dealer prices.
Its not like there is DB sold every few hours or days. So even the one off sale on Ebay is valid. It at the least shows the inactivity and lack of interest.
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Look at an IQ180 as a final example. A P1 dealer (who you are on good terms with) - might - on a good day - offer ~$10k trade-in. A non-P1 dealer, less. Note this is 'trade-in', neither really wants to buy it from you. They'll probably offer to sell it on commission at a push rather than part with the cash. The dealer is ultimately the seller’s buyer of last resort, and sadly for the seller, both the (private) buyer and the dealer know this. Add into the mix the fact that buyers for this kit are few and far between, and it would just be plain stupid for the seller to turn down any good private offer in the low ‘teens. That’s why these are selling for $14k right now. And that's probably too high. Soon that figure will be $12k. Within 6 months that will be $10k. Lamenting this fact, or resenting those who air these things in public, is just a waste of time and energy. Don’t shoot the messenger. Move on. It is what it is.
Jim
This simply isn't true - are you actually basing your comments on actual transactions?
Let me provide you with an actual IQ180 example.
I'm trading in a (very) out of warranty IQ180 against a brand new IQ3 80.
IQ3 80 list - EUR 33,990
Return upgrade offer for IQ180 - EUR(20,990)
Total amount I'm paying - EUR 13,000
(My IQ180 was bought privately in March 2012 for US$27,500. IIRC, at the time, dealer pricing on a used IQ180 with 1 year warranty was around $10K above that).
Kind regards,
Gerald.
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This simply isn't true - are you actually basing your comments on actual transactions?
Let me provide you with an actual IQ180 example.
I'm trading in a (very) out of warranty IQ180 against a brand new IQ3 80.
IQ3 80 list - EUR 33,990
Return upgrade offer for IQ180 - EUR(20,990)
Total amount I'm paying - EUR 13,000
(My IQ180 was bought privately in March 2012 for US$27,500. IIRC, at the time, dealer pricing on a used IQ180 with 1 year warranty was around $10K above that).
Kind regards,
Gerald.
Exactly the case which proves that P1 overprices their products deliberately... Hasselblad used to do the same up until recently... ;)
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Exactly the case which proves that P1 overprices their products deliberately... Hasselblad used to do the same up until recently... ;)
What it proves is that claims of reluctant $10k trade-in values offered against IQ180's are demonstrably incorrect.
Which is the point I was addressing.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
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and those few that do get the DB for a really low price. It only looks really low in comparison to the dealer prices.
Its not like there is DB sold every few hours or days. So even the one off sale on Ebay is valid. It at the least shows the inactivity and lack of interest.
....or it means that they've stopped overpricing their products by not including a prejudged future "upgrade path" in the pricing for new... Or, it means that they realized that people could notice the inexplicable last year's difference in price for a CFV 50 when compared to an H5D-50c.... Mind you that:
A. The ebay offering is quite an "expensive" offering, currently one can buy a new H5D-50c Wi-Fi to various dealers around Europe for 14K, (which means that there is a new pricing policy from factory).
B. The policy is applied on the CMos sensor related products which are the major market demand at the moment (which means that they do all to their power as to turn all of the rest customer attention to the "new" sensor).
C. That they released a range of backs to be sold as stand alone (you can buy the back only), but again, only the Cmos sensor based ones. (a proof that they want to replace all the series with Cmos products).
D. That Hasselblad's promotion logo with the introduction of the H5D-50 some 1&1/2 years ago, was: "the best Hasselblad ever". (again, a clear suggestion that their CCD products are under looked).
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This simply isn't true...
We’re talking about two completely different scenarios.
You’re staying on the P1 upgrade merry-go-round - of course there are good inducements to keep you on the ride - there have to be - even in your case of a ‘cross-grade’ (which was never initially supported when the 2xx series was released).
I’m talking about cashing-in and getting out (or buying a DB out-with the P1 ecosystem) - completely and utterly different in every way imaginable. The IQ1 series is 5 years old. In 5 years time, take your 380 to your local P1 dealer and tell them you want to sell it, or trade it in for - say - Canon gear. Then get back to me with their offer.
Jim
P.S. Since you can get $22k for an IQ180, maybe I'll send you a few that I can pick up in the low teens - you sell them, and we'll split the difference (less expenses). ;)
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To add - my local P1 dealer isn't interested in buying any backs for cash. 'Store credit' would be ~$9.5k for a 180 (no warranty, good condition) against non-P1 gear. Alternatively they will sell on commission at @19.5% + costs (with VAT on the sale price). If you wanted to trade it in for a new P1 DB, then the 'attractive' P1 upgrade pricing kicks in (obviously).
See the first post in this thread (http://www.getdpi.com/forum/medium-format-systems-and-digital-backs/53676-should-i-not.html?highlight=) from back in February of the guy who wanted to upgrade (cross-grade? downgrade? confusing, eh?) his 12 month old IQ180 to an IQ250 and found out the 180 was 'worth' $10k.
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We’re talking about two completely different scenarios.
You’re staying on the P1 upgrade merry-go-round - of course there are good inducements to keep you on the ride - there have to be - even in your case of a ‘cross-grade’ (which was never initially supported when the 2xx series was released).
I’m talking about cashing-in and getting out (or buying a DB out-with the P1 ecosystem) - completely and utterly different in every way imaginable. The IQ1 series is 5 years old. In 5 years time, take your 380 to your local P1 dealer and tell them you want to sell it, or trade it in for - say - Canon gear. Then get back to me with their offer.
Jim
P.S. Since you can get $22k for an IQ180, maybe I'll send you a few that I can pick up in the low teens - you sell them, and we'll split the difference (less expenses). ;)
No - we were talking about the exact same thing. Your words:
Look at an IQ180 as a final example. A P1 dealer (who you are on good terms with) - might - on a good day - offer ~$10k trade-in.
But sure - feel free to move on from that and change the goal-posts. Now you specifically want to discuss trading in against other gear, or trying to sell through, or to, the dealer.
Well guess what - it's not the dealer who's funding that 22K trade-in value.
And frankly, you'd need your head examined if you wanted to get the best price for anything by selling it to someone who makes their living by adding a margin before they then sell it on to another private individual.
And if you read my post carefully, rather than reading what you wanted in it, and twisting it to suit your own ever-changing argument, you'd actually hopefully have a little more intelligence than to accuse me of "staying on the P1 upgrade merry-go-round".
I bought my back second hand from a private individual. I'm playing the system to my own advantage because I have never - and would never - personally buy a brand new back from a dealer. That's where the big margin is - in the cash sale of a new back.
$27.5K approximately 4 years ago for a back that, IIRC, was around 15 months old at the time, and had the remainder of a 1 year additional warranty to run on it.
4 years later. Another outlay of $15K to get a brand new back that comes with a 5 year warranty.
Come back to you in 5 years time with an update? I've got better things to do with my life.
But just to entertain you, let's say that I did want to get off the "merry-go-round".
Option 1 - trade in to the IQ3 80, and then sell that on immediately.
What price those on the second hand market do you reckon?
Well, it would appear that the list price of the thing is $44K - https://www.digitalback.com/product/phase-one-iq3-80mp/
What do you reckon I could shift one for to a private individual? Brand new. Boxed. Untouched. 5 year warranty. Do I hear $30k? Seems reasonable to me (after all, I was happy to pay 27.5K for a 15 month old IQ180 a few years back that had 9 months warranty left on it).
Total outlay, $42.5K ($27.5K that I paid for the 180, plus $15K trade-in cash for the 3 80)
Cost to me to own the IQ180 for roughly 4 years - $12.5K. $8.50 a day.
Option 2 -
What if I do just dump the thing and sell it to a private individual for, say, $12K.
Cost to me to own the IQ180 for roughly 4 years - $15.5K. $10.60 a day.
You think that's a problem? Seriously? Ten bucks a day?
That's what people make (before tax) flipping burgers in McDonald's in one hour.
Just one single image sale has paid for that entire ownership period. Am I'm not even a professional.
I think you're punching above your weight if you think the cost and depreciation on these things is a problem.
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Option 1 - trade in to the IQ3 80, and then sell that on immediately.
Exactly...... that's how I would do it. Of course, only if I wanted out. I still have my IQ180 and a Leaf Credo 50. My dealer really worked with me on the Leaf and I bought it with Mamiya mount really right. I will have to think long and hard for the next upgrade. There is nothing, though, like a 'real' live view back.
Victor
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Well guess what - it's not the dealer who's funding that 22K trade-in value.
Of course it isn't... it's P1's policy to price the new products with fake prices that include fake buying back... Hasselblad used to that too... The thing under discussion here is what happens with pricing now that Hasselblad's new pricing policy exposed how much of the value is fake...
Do you know that some of the backs sold by dealers as S/H are in reality NEW backs that have been factory named S/H and are priced at what the price of S/H should be? What you think happens with "B-class" sensors that have inferior to A-class IQ? ;)
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Hi,
Two years ago, when I bought my used P45+ back for 10 k$US I was offered something like 20 k$US in exchange value if I upgraded to a than new IQ-back.
But, I would still need to pay something like 20k$ US in between…
Another thing, if a vendor sells a camera with a value protection plan, it should be a value protection plan, not depending if the owner wants to upgrade, downgrade or crossgrade.
Best regards
Erik
Of course it isn't... it's P1's policy to price the new products with fake prices that include fake buying back... Hasselblad used to that too... The thing under discussion here is what happens with pricing now that Hasselblad's new pricing policy exposed how much of the value is fake...
Do you know that some of the backs sold by dealers as S/H are in reality NEW backs that have been factory named S/H and are priced at what the price of new should be? What you think happens with "B-class" sensors that have inferior to A-class IQ? ;)
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........There is nothing, though, like a 'real' live view back.......
Victor
Cudos to that... and since it is expected that there will be no more new CCD sensor backs introduction... People better think twice when they decide on how to spent their money or "invest" on S/H... If Hasselblad decided to sell the H5D-50c WiFi for 14K in Europe and Leica did the same for its S-007, the first cameras that will appear on the S/H market should be at 65% of the new sale price (exactly like DSLRs are...) and then the MFDB market should both expand, become healthier and gain the market base it now lucks (due to backs "disappearing" from the S/H market)... Lets hope MF makers will stop "taking their own eyes off" and start pricing their products right...
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A troubillion watch in Switzerland is around $100,000 (for starters).
China now has a very nice and even attractive tuorbillion watch for $2500 with better features than some of the Swiss. They both tell the time just as accurately, and arguably as attractive or more than some.
I'm not sure why this bit came to mind as I was reading this and thinking about the MF backs and the prices they have been listed at new, but the prices do look like they fall in to the category of how Swiss watches are made vs somewhere, or even something else. Another watch analogy...Tag Heuer announced their first luxury SmartWatch. Nicely made, with a number of capabilities MISSING, that most other smartwatches already have. And the battery life is far less than the average. But get this, you are able to trade in the smartwatch($1500) for the "real" mechanical model(Carrera $3000) at a full trade in value of $1500 plus an additional $1500 for the mechanical Carrera (after the smartwatch is obsolete in a couple years).
:-)
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A troubillion watch in Switzerland is around $100,000 (for starters).
China now has a very nice and even attractive tuorbillion watch for $2500 with better features than some of the Swiss. They both tell the time just as accurately, and arguably as attractive or more than some.
I'm not sure why this bit came to mind as I was reading this and thinking about the MF backs and the prices they have been listed at new, but the prices do look like they fall in to the category of how Swiss watches are made vs somewhere, or even something else. Another watch analogy...Tag Heuer announced their first luxury SmartWatch. Nicely made, with a number of capabilities MISSING, that most other smartwatches already have. And the battery life is far less than the average. But get this, you are able to trade in the smartwatch($1500) for the "real" mechanical model(Carrera $3000) at a full trade in value of $1500 plus an additional $1500 for the mechanical Carrera
:-)
What is the relevance? Watches don't capture images (so that one can judge IQ to his preference) and Hasselblad is not a Chinese company... In other words there are watches, there is jewellery and there are watches that are jewels... but cameras & lenses are only tools for one to do photography... If a tool costs double the price, it has to prove its case... If it can't, the maker may look for customers that would appreciate it as a jewel, but that's not relevant to photography... ???
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The relevence is the business model. Don't you see it?
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It is as relevant as your incessant rants about the P1 conspiracy!
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The relevence is the business model. Don't you see it?
If you mean that P1 is promoting their products like being jewels instead of tools, (I may surprise you here but) no I don't... Hasselblad used to do that with some "Ferrari color" and other stupid ideas like Lunars and other crap and additionally had a policy of overpricing their products having the same business model as P1... ie the (Overpricing - trap the customer to an "upgrade path" - make him think that we stand by him - keep getting his money at what the (real) selling price should be - convince him that he needs to "upgrade") model... But now that Hasselblad stopped the "upgrade path" policy (after suffering financially because of it), they only expose (clearly) what is happening with the P1 business model...
So, no it's not the same business model as jewellery, with jewellery they don't trap you in an "upgrade path"... they rather try to directly relate products with art creations where aesthetics is the major aspect for the choice... with tools its different!
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I do understand the number of differences...I was looking at the likeness
I don't know about you, but buying the Smart watch in order to trade it in for the mechanical sure did remind me of it regardless of the market differences...
I know its not direct, ....One product has a job to capture the best quality image and the other is to be accurate in calculating seconds....but if you knew that there are some top brands that get some of the main parts made in China and then sell under the Swiss badge, you might see some lack of value in the entire "exclusivity" pricing and purchasing as I do.
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It is as relevant as your incessant rants about the P1 conspiracy!
What are you talking about?
Ah, ok...:-)
(reading your post below )
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@Gerald - for reasons clearly unbeknownst to me, you seem to have taken my posts as some form of personal insult. Where analogies with McDonalds, boastful tales of how much money you make, or how much of a heavyweight photographer you are have come from, I have no idea. Quite frankly, that’s not a conversation I want to be a part of; I’m too old and have been in this business too long. I always envisioned this thread (and ones like it) as being useful to someone wanting to get into MFD on a dime, rather than someone like yourself who seems to have access to a large amount of really expensive kit (thanks for the photos of the CAPcam by the way). I’m guessing you’re independently wealthy ? In which case - good for you ! But at the same time, regarding this thread and paraphrasing Jerry Seinfeld, ‘What do you care ?’ I naturally disagree with a number of your points, feel ambivalent towards most, and acknowledge that some have merit. Going forward, I’m not going to get into some long drawn out heated debate that will bore everyone silly. Given the events of the past few days, ‘Who cares ?’
Everyone, have some peace ’n’ love bunnies:
(https://anonmgur.com/up/713512b7716cbbc63bf809374ac3e6ca.png)
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What are you talking about?
Sorry Phil, my post appeared just below yours. It was directed at the individual always raising a P1 conspiracy and price irregularities, certainly not at you.
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@Gerald - for reasons clearly unbeknownst to me, you seem to have taken my posts as some form of personal insult. Where analogies with McDonalds, boastful tales of how much money you make, or how much of a heavyweight photographer you are have come from, I have no idea. Quite frankly, that’s not a conversation I want to be a part of; I’m too old and have been in this business too long. I always envisioned this thread (and ones like it) as being useful to someone wanting to get into MFD on a dime, rather than someone like yourself who seems to have access to a large amount of really expensive kit (thanks for the photos of the CAPcam by the way). I’m guessing you’re independently wealthy ? In which case - good for you ! But at the same time, regarding this thread and paraphrasing Jerry Seinfeld, ‘What do you care ?’ I naturally disagree with a number of your points, feel ambivalent towards most, and acknowledge that some have merit. Going forward, I’m not going to get into some long drawn out heated debate that will bore everyone silly. Given the events of the past few days, ‘Who cares ?’
Everyone, have some peace ’n’ love bunnies:
(https://anonmgur.com/up/713512b7716cbbc63bf809374ac3e6ca.png)
LOL... well said, very well said... Some people are acting like if photography has progressed any better than the equipment they where using 10 years ago... To my evidence (the pictures) it hasn't... (rather the opposite) but love keeps advancing as the world keeps spinning...
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Do you (or another) know for sure if on screen LV of an IQ back works with the Contax? Because if it doesn't, P-65+ seems a far better option price wise...
Yes it does. I've used an IQ 250 on a Contax with great success. Of course you have to use the bulb seting on the Contax to kep the mirror and shutter out of the way while live view is active. But it definitely works.
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@Gerald - for reasons clearly unbeknownst to me, you seem to have taken my posts as some form of personal insult. Where analogies with McDonalds, boastful tales of how much money you make, or how much of a heavyweight photographer you are have come from, I have no idea. Quite frankly, that’s not a conversation I want to be a part of; I’m too old and have been in this business too long. I always envisioned this thread (and ones like it) as being useful to someone wanting to get into MFD on a dime, rather than someone like yourself who seems to have access to a large amount of really expensive kit (thanks for the photos of the CAPcam by the way). I’m guessing you’re independently wealthy ? In which case - good for you ! But at the same time, regarding this thread and paraphrasing Jerry Seinfeld, ‘What do you care ?’ I naturally disagree with a number of your points, feel ambivalent towards most, and acknowledge that some have merit. Going forward, I’m not going to get into some long drawn out heated debate that will bore everyone silly. Given the events of the past few days, ‘Who cares ?’
Everyone, have some peace ’n’ love bunnies:
See, there's a very clear pattern to your posts. Whilst this one may be all wrapped up in cuddly little bunny wabbits, once again you totally failed to directly address the actual points being discussed, and attempt instead to steer the discussion off on a different tangent, this time with a remarkable combination of ad-hominem and straw-men arguments.
Fortunately for everyone, I'm not going to fall for that tactic.
Au revoir.
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a real pathetic this gerald.................
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Thank you Gerald D. I appreciate your camera testing and innovative images of watches and cityscapes. It's unfortunate that among the gems of the forum we have to deal with "anonymous" "@ciccio" who has no credibility and adds no value other than to disrupt.
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The rules here are simple. No personal attacks or insults.
Any more and I'll ban the lot of you.
Michael
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Hi Michael,
It has been proven time and again that "Ciccio" is a fake poster who claims to own a different digital back in different threads. I am not sure why such blatantly dishonest people are allowed to troll these forums.
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a real pathetic this gerald.................
I'm going to get banned for this, and frankly, I no longer care.
Sadly this forum is now so poorly moderated that blatant trolls such as yourself seem to have free reign to drag it into the gutter and keep it there.
This used to be a valuable resource. A place where people with similar interests, but with different backgrounds and wildly disparate skill sets and experience could meet and chat and share knowledge.
No longer.
So in the spirit of where you have taken this forum , allow me to sign off for the last time not with my customary "Kind regards", but by using what, frankly, is of the vernacular that you deserve.
A very resounding, "Fuck you."
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The rules here are simple. No personal attacks or insults.
Any more and I'll ban the lot of you.
Michael
Well thats not very British of you, now is it ;-)
I think Gerald and Jim were doing fine. I wish Gerald would have pointed out specifically how Jim is dodging the topic, as I didn't catch it. I'm a bit like a sticky nutter , ..I mean shutter sometimes. They were OK, and both doing some circle dances.
But ya, if anyone, the Sysco dude should be outed.Not that those types of users find there way back in with a new user name(Flag his IP).
We are all adults here, and even if we are not seeing eye to eye...thats the point of such discussions, we will not always agree, but key being...To find a way to explain, or find a way to be beside yourself and understand from a different point of view someone is projecting. Perhaps one has been rather frustrated from something or another regarding it, etc. We certainly don't all have to agree...
But I think we can all agree that we would love to see more of Geralds scapes and such...And Jim, perhaps share some pictures rather than bunnies now and then....and lets all try and hold hands for a minute, and close your eyes....thaaats it. Now when I count to 3, lets all put this negativity aside, and carry on. Even in this thread, with perhaps more info of each situation can help explain each others position and why...Rather than point out falts....Now ...open your eyes!
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OK....for Michael's sake...and ALL of ours...some POSITIVITY....for a change.
I'm still looking for a Hassy-V 80-MP back....Hassy's new offer is very tempting...even if the pixel-pitch is not all that amenable to LF camera-movements.
I love my Leaf Aptus-65...7.2-mircron pixels...lots of camera-movements....can easily switch from portrait-to-landscape....(done it hundreds of times....in all kinds of weather conditions).
Anyone selling....??
Cheers,
Hank
P.S. Everyone THINK positive....
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For whatever it was worth, I got my IQ140 for $6500. Clean, decent shot count around 100K, but the thing makes some awesome exposures. Was I screwed?
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For whatever it was worth, I got my IQ140 for $6500. Clean, decent shot count around 100K, but the thing makes some awesome exposures. Was I screwed?
Almost fell off my chaise longue when I read this post. It’s completely on topic and in the spirit of this thread. Amazing.
To answer your question, IMHO you didn’t get screwed - it's an ok price for an IQ140 with >100k clicks. These things can go to, what, a million+ captures, so who cares about the ‘high’ shot count.
Typically, these are selling on eBay anywhere from $7k and up, e.g.
Japanese dealer (http://www.ebay.com/itm/Phase-one-IQ-140-Digital-Back-EXC-Phase-one-mount-5758-/281859029361?hash=item41a01b7971:g:16QAAOSwd0BV0ah1) on eBay - 13303 - Mamiya mount - $7k or best offer, so you’d probably get it for $6.5k (maybe less!)
Roberts Camera (http://www.ebay.com/itm/Phase-One-IQ140-Digital-Back-40MP-for-Mamiya-051-/401025695932?hash=item5d5efe80bc:g:D30AAOSwFGNWQ9gU) (in the US) via eBay - $8.5k or best offer - Mamiya mount - doesn’t say the shot count, but comes with a 6 month warranty. You’d probably snag it for closer to $7 - $7.5k if you pointed out the other sale prices of 140s.
If I was buying one I wouldn’t go any higher than $7 - 7.5k, especially since I don't care about the number of clicks. I'd hope to get closer to the $6.5k you paid, now that you've made me aware of it - which is how a thread like this should work.
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I'm still looking for a Hassy-V 80-MP back....Hassy's new offer is very tempting...even if the pixel-pitch is not all that amenable to LF camera-movements. P.S. Everyone THINK positive....
As with the Contax fit backs, people who have these tend to hang onto them. Right now, your best bet is an 80MP back with the VAW, and then use the VAW to swap out the mount (assuming P1 have a back to swap it with - they don't actually swap the mount - you could get the dealer to check pre-purchase). The couple that digitalback.com (https://www.digitalback.com/) are selling (if they haven't already sold) had VAW attached @ $18k, which for them is a price breakthrough.
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I guess the subject we are discussing here is more related to new MFDB (suggested by the makers) prices and inevitably question the new to S/H market price differences... It doesn't question the quality of the products of makers, makers are criticized (by those that critisize them - me among them for specific makers) only on their marketing policy and the (financial) morality behind it...
My believe is that (private) S/H market is adjusting itself on maker's false policies and that there is no space for fanboys of certain makers to "protect" them on keeping doing so... It is clear to me that if the "upgrade path" pricing will eclipse (from those makers that insist on it and price their new products with fake prices as to terminate the life of older products), the MF market base will increase, prices of new will fall significantly (as Hasselblad proved by abandoning the "upgrade path" policy on their later products) and the MF market will expand significantly because its base will widen... Only my two cents...
P.S. After all, there is no "upgrade path" policy with any other product that is supported by a maker... it's only dealers that part exchange S/H cars, jewels, stereo equipment or even ...cameras (other than one or two makers).
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As with the Contax fit backs, people who have these tend to hang onto them. Right now, your best bet is an 80MP back with the VAW, and then use the VAW to swap out the mount (assuming P1 have a back to swap it with - they don't actually swap the mount - you could get the dealer to check pre-purchase). The couple that digitalback.com (https://www.digitalback.com/) are selling (if they haven't already sold) had VAW attached @ $18k, which for them is a price breakthrough.
Thanks for mentioning. We also have the Credo 80 digital backs for $1,000 less, and there is a short period of Gold Warranty (leaf's version of Value Add) remaining. And regarding IQ140's, we have $9,990 IQ140/DF+/80 kits.... so doing the math, even if one doesn't want or need a DF+/80 kit, it can be sold and then you have a IQ140 not far off from where you are projecting from eBay, and with full one year warranty and support from a CI level dealership.
And importantly, as always, the pre-owned list that we place online for digitalback.com is most, but not all of our inventory. I always have an internal inventory list that I work off of which shows me more product, (some of this is demo that I can turn if I want to) and I am aware if I have product coming into inventory within the coming weeks - many of these items don't make it to the online store because I sell them before they get posted. So, for complete inventory and price options, PM'ing me is a good idea.
Steve Hendrix
Capture Integration
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Indeed. Calling around to each of the relevant dealers to see what they have in inventory and what they expect soon on trade is always a good idea. We're never going to publicly list a back we're expecting to come in on trade (because we're in the process of upgrading someone to a different back) until we have it in hand. But if someone is looking for that kind of back and doesn't need it "TODAY" then we can let them know we expect it to come in, and then let them know when it's arrived and we've put it through our thorough testing regimen. Probably half our pre-owned backs are sold in this way.
This is also one of the reasons you very rarely see a Contax-mount back up on our website is we have a queue of people with a standing interest that we contact before bothering to list it publicly. As the largest Phase One dealer in the world we do have Contax backs come in via upgrades (not as frequently, of course, as more popular mounts), but when they do they are almost always sold to someone in this queue who has already asked us to call them whenever we have a Contax-mount back come in.
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....the pre-owned list that we place online for digitalback.com is most, but not all of our inventory.....
Steve Hendrix
Capture Integration
Hi Steve, it would be very helpful for us that love to use MF equipment to know from a dealer that deals most of the leading makers on MF equipment the following:
1. What's the percentage balance (about) of MFDB customers that buy new with respect to the percentage that buys used...
2. What is the percentage (about) of new sales that are under an "upgrade path"...
3. If the "upgrade path" trades stay with the dealer or if they are sent back to the maker...
4. If certain makers offer unofficially "upgrade paths" for owners of previous equipment that is of a different maker...
5. If certain makers offer to customers they think are important an upgrade path even if the customer doesn't have a trade... ie (pays some more as to "find" the trade)...
Thanks, Theodoros.
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And regarding IQ140's, we have $9,990 IQ140/DF+/80 kits....
Great post - last DF (not +) with the 80 went for $2.5k on eBay - so to me it's a no brainer - basically puts the 140 right on the money at $7.5k - would go through CI here in a heartbeat to get the added value, and then move the camera and lens on. The DF and DF+ are still going to be in demand for the simple fact that you can't use the P/P+ series of backs with the XF (unless something has changed), so I wouldn't be too worried about being left holding it.
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Hi Steve, it would be very helpful for us that love to use MF equipment to know from a dealer that deals most of the leading makers on MF equipment the following:
1. What's the percentage balance (about) of MFDB customers that buy new with respect to the percentage that buys used...
2. What is the percentage (about) of new sales that are under an "upgrade path"...
3. If the "upgrade path" trades stay with the dealer or if they are sent back to the maker...
4. If certain makers offer unofficially "upgrade paths" for owners of previous equipment that is of a different maker...
5. If certain makers offer to customers they think are important an upgrade path even if the customer doesn't have a trade... ie (pays some more as to "find" the trade)...
Thanks, Theodoros.
Theodoros -
I'm not going to answer all your questions and not in specifics. But I will say a few things. There are more trade in purchasers than non trade in purchasers. Of course, after all, the base is large enough that this has been the case for some time. Competitive brand trade ins are usually acceptable by makers. Trade ins are normally available for us to purchase rather than send in. But some makers have exceptions at times. CI often make an offer to keep, as long as the product has a place in our inventory, the condition is up to our standards, and passes our inspection. Even if makers offered no trade in program, CI will always have an upgrade path for customers who have purchased their previous digital back through our company.
All medium format makers currently offer a trade in - with the exception of Pentax and Leica. You are assuming Hasselblad has made a policy change, when there is no announcement confirming this is a policy change. They have reduced pricing on 2 models that use the same sensor for some reason. Hasselblad has a history of these sudden price reductions. Companies generally reduce pricing for only a couple reasons. Increasing revenues or decreasing inventory would be 2 of the most common reasons. Reducing pricing should increase unit sales, but is not guaranteed to increase revenues. However, increasing unit sales does reduce inventory.
Steve Hendrix
Capture Integration
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Great post - last DF (not +) with the 80 went for $2.5k on eBay - so to me it's a no brainer - basically puts the 140 right on the money at $7.5k - would go through CI here in a heartbeat to get the added value, and then move the camera and lens on. The DF and DF+ are still going to be in demand for the simple fact that you can't use the P/P+ series of backs with the XF (unless something has changed), so I wouldn't be too worried about being left holding it.
Thank you Buckshot.
I should point out that there is a limited quantity of these kits remaining (2, I believe, at the moment). So anyone really interested should PM me promptly. I had 4 kits, and sold 2 over the past weekend.
Steve Hendrix
Capture Integration
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Theodoros -
I'm not going to answer all your questions and not in specifics. But I will say a few things. There are more trade in purchasers than non trade in purchasers. Of course, after all, the base is large enough that this has been the case for some time. Competitive brand trade ins are usually acceptable by makers. Trade ins are normally available for us to purchase rather than send in. But some makers have exceptions at times. CI often make an offer to keep, as long as the product has a place in our inventory, the condition is up to our standards, and passes our inspection. Even if makers offered no trade in program, CI will always have an upgrade path for customers who have purchased their previous digital back through our company.
All medium format makers currently offer a trade in - with the exception of Pentax and Leica. You are assuming Hasselblad has made a policy change, when there is no announcement confirming this is a policy change. They have reduced pricing on 2 models that use the same sensor for some reason. Hasselblad has a history of these sudden price reductions. Companies generally reduce pricing for only a couple reasons. Increasing revenues or decreasing inventory would be 2 of the most common reasons. Reducing pricing should increase unit sales, but is not guaranteed to increase revenues. However, increasing unit sales does reduce inventory.
Steve Hendrix
Capture Integration
Thanks for the "careful" answer... Its good to know that Leica & Pentax have reduced significantly their pricing without having any "tricks" in mind...
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Thanks for the "careful" answer... Its good to know that Leica & Pentax have reduced significantly their pricing without having any "tricks" in mind...
Your perspective of "tricks" is entirely your own Theodoros. No, neither Leica nor Pentax offers an upgrade option for their clients, while Phase One, Sinar, and Hasselblad do offer this possibility.
Steve Hendrix
Capture Integration
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Your perspective of "tricks" is entirely your own Theodoros. No, neither Leica nor Pentax offers an upgrade option for their clients, while Phase One, Sinar, and Hasselblad do offer this possibility.
because neither Leica nor Pentax either need or bother to do this... Leica is Leica and Pentax is cheap /new, retail/ dSLR
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All medium format makers currently offer a trade in - with the exception of Pentax and Leica.
"ALL" as if the actual number is way greater than 2... is it ?
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"ALL" as if the actual number is way greater than 2... is it ?
AE -
I stated the manufacturers who do offer this (the number is 3, Phase One, Sinar, Hasselblad) in my post immediately preceding yours. And you are correct, neither Leica nor Pentax bother to offer it, as is their prerogative. Notably, trade in policies are maintained only by manufacturers who offer modular digital backs, as opposed to digital cameras. My point, relative to Theodoros, was that Hasselblad does have a trade in policy.
Steve Hendrix
Capture Integration
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I got my P65+ with a 645DF+ and the 80mm LS for about 7.500€... that's about 17% of the original value which is pretty low considering I recently sold my 5D mk II for about 36% of its original value after 6 years.
Honestly I wouldn't have expected that, I would have though it'd be the other way around.
I'm don't think P1 is overpriced, they are high precision instruments with a rather small consumer market - most of the photographers I know don't buy digital MF cameras, they just rent them, so it's not a high volume market to begin with and the price will remain comparatively high.
Therefore the second hand market remains relatively small - normally that would result in high second hand prices, however this market is reduced to people who want to have their own MFD without spending a lot (if they could spend a lot they might as well go for a new one). And due to the fact that digital 35mm is very advanced and comfortable with high quality results, most photographers aren't interested to additionally invest into medium format.
I guess that explains the trade in value as well...
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I'm don't think P1 is overpriced, they are high precision instruments
and what is exactly more precise in MFDB there vs for example some dSLR/dSLM high end camera ?
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the number is 3, Phase One, Sinar, Hasselblad)
interesting - why Sinar is able to stay un-acquired by P1 so far ? just curious ...
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interesting - why Sinar is able to stay un-acquired by P1 so far ? just curious ...
Because Leica bought them. Although there was a strange moment some years ago when there was a rumor that Phase had bought Sinar.
Edmund
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Because Leica bought them. Although there was a strange moment some years ago when there was a rumor that Phase had bought Sinar.
Edmund
are you saying that Sinar is not ind. anymore ? but then it is not 3 but 2 (P1 & H) vs 2 (Leica & Ricoh) as Sinar is just a Leica's side business ?
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and what is exactly more precise in MFDB there vs for example some dSLR/dSLM high end camera ?
Well - let's put it this way: it's by far easier to build a complete camera where nothing can/should be removed than to build a removable back that lines up perfectly with other cameras and you shouldn't forget that a big sensor size means that you need a big perfect sensor. That's very hard to manufacture, smaller sensors are much easier to fabricate, that's one of the reasons why small cameras with tiny sensors are dirt cheap.
Aside from that the most important aspect of the pricing of the P1 gear is the low production volume. Think about how many Nikon and Canon DSLRs are being produced each and every day vs how many backs P1 produces.
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Well - let's put it this way: it's by far easier to build a complete camera where nothing can/should be removed than to build a removable back that lines up perfectly with other cameras
I think I read that it most often than not takes a trip to a dealer/service center to do that (align) when you change - so it is in fact a sign of less precision (that requires man hours of work to correct)... correct me if I am wrong and all MFDB users here are juggling backs/cameras just like that w/o any issues ;) ? vs for example stabilizing sensor in camera (IBIS) or if we want to involve man-hours of work then aligning dozens off sensor PDAF points in dSLRs to work properly where you have 3 optical paths - to OVF, to sensor, to PDAF sensor
and you shouldn't forget that a big sensor size means that you need a big perfect sensor.
that's true - the yield is naturally lower, but this is about silicone, not about MFDB being more precise...
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are you saying that Sinar is not ind. anymore ? but then it is not 3 but 2 (P1 & H) vs 2 (Leica & Ricoh) as Sinar is just a Leica's side business ?
nod.
although the design of electronics and firmware etc are probably Jenoptik (ex Zeiss East Germany)
e.
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I think I read that it most often than not takes a trip to a dealer/service center to do that (align) when you change - so it is in fact a sign of less precision (that requires man hours of work to correct)... correct me if I am wrong and all MFDB users here are juggling backs/cameras just like that w/o any issues ;) ? vs for example stabilizing sensor in camera (IBIS) or if we want to involve man-hours of work then aligning dozens off sensor PDAF points in dSLRs to work properly where you have 3 optical paths - to OVF, to sensor, to PDAF sensor
I don't quite understand what you're getting at... which MFDB user has to bring their camera and back to a service center vor alignment after each DB-change? (Maybe there was a misunderstanding?)
Of course there can be issues if you're using a back that was retroactively adapted to another brand/camera - but a P1 back for a P1 camera is rather perfectly aligned and shouldn't cause any issues at all.
But in medium format the chance of getting it wrong is much bigger than in small format, due to the magnification and smaller DoF; a tiny discrepancy between the focus in the viewfinder and the focus on the sensor might not even be an issue with a small format camera, but with medium format it would be.
That's why I think that MF has much lower tolerances when it comes to alignment issues or general imprecisions.
that's true - the yield is naturally lower, but this is about silicone, not about MFDB being more precise...
Which is why I said "and" ;)
Whenever you have something that can be attached and detached, it becomes a potential weak point in the whole system, that's the reason why we have quite complex camera mounts with big connector knobs instead of small, fragile little pins that can be bent or broken off. But it's not easy to get a good, stable and precise connection when it's a removable part - let alone a removable sensor which simply can not have any tolerance when it comes to its position towards the camera and the lens.
There is no 'wiggle room', it can't be off by 1/10mm, not even after the 1000th reconnection.
Simply put: it has to be more precisely built than a system, where a.) the sensor is in a fixed position and b.) a slight misalignment wouldn't matter.
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Christoph, I'd like to agree with you, but I don't.
I hate to bring this up, but I have to use the watch analogy again. I know, its not smooth, but this alignment thing just rang loud in my head. Just about any watch shop you go to will replace a battery for a japan movement watch for about $20. For a swiss brand the price is at $80-200. And both watches are replaced by the same swiss trained repair professional. OK, enough of that.
Aside from that and aside from the chip MFG hurdles, I think the dSLR's are MUCH more complex than the MFDB. Of course, I am open to be wowed and wrong....A good example is Pentax making a profit on their MFDB camera all in one. I wonder if they would ever make a DB independent of the camera?
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Imagine a watch where you could replace the hands yourself, but it doesn't only display the date, hours, minutes and seconds, it displays milli-seconds as well. That's the equivalent of medium format vs small format.
DSLR's have been around for ages, the only thing you have to do is to put in a sensor and a CF card-slot, feed the whole camera from one battery and that's it. But that wasn't always the case, in the early days there were exchangeable backs with sensors for small format cameras- but it's much easier to just produce a compact, non-removable design, which is why most manufacturers do just that.
An as I already stated, medium format is a different beast because of the sensor size and the resulting magnification, smaller DoF etc. - if the focus is off by just a fraction you'll immediately notice and the photo will be out of focus.
With small format - not so much.
I'm not saying that small format (D)SLRs are all cheap trash, I'm just saying that the requirements and challenges for medium format are much higher.
edit: and of course changing the battery on an expensive watch (which is most likely waterproof) costs more. First of all the person who changes the battery always risks damaging the case (which is expensive to replace) and he/she has to exchange the water seals every time the battery is changed. It is a much more complicated task and takes longer too - that's why it's cheaper for a cheap watch and not so cheap for an expensive one.
After all a formula 1 race car is much more expensive than a Ford Fiesta and having someone change the oil or getting new tires will definitely be more expensive as well.
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Imagine a watch where you could replace the hands yourself, but it doesn't only display the date, hours, minutes and seconds, it displays milli-seconds as well. That's the equivalent of medium format vs small format.
DSLR's have been around for ages, the only thing you have to do is to put in a sensor and a CF card-slot, feed the whole camera from one battery and that's it. But that wasn't always the case, in the early days there were exchangeable backs with sensors for small format cameras- but it's much easier to just produce a compact, non-removable design, which is why most manufacturers do just that.
An as I already stated, medium format is a different beast because of the sensor size and the resulting magnification, smaller DoF etc. - if the focus is off by just a fraction you'll immediately notice and the photo will be out of focus.
With small format - not so much.
I'm not saying that small format (D)SLRs are all cheap trash, I'm just saying that the requirements and challenges for medium format are much higher.
edit: and of course changing the battery on an expensive watch (which is most likely waterproof) costs more. First of all the person who changes the battery always risks damaging the case (which is expensive to replace) and he/she has to exchange the water seals every time the battery is changed. It is a much more complicated task and takes longer too - that's why it's cheaper for a cheap watch and not so cheap for an expensive one.
After all a formula 1 race car is much more expensive than a Ford Fiesta and having someone change the oil or getting new tires will definitely be more expensive as well.
I have photographed with 3 different makes of MFDB backs for 10 years now, and I still default to my old 22mpxl back when it comes to purchase and upgrade thoughts. I paid a lot for it at the time..at the time when digital was sort of new in the SLR world (Canon 1Ds cost me $8500) I most likely will be going to Canon, but perhaps to Sony, maybe by the time, Nikon will have something, who knows?
Maybe Ricoh was onto something with the interchangable sensors. Unless Fuji Honeycomb pattern, or Foveon technology is not exploited into larger mpixels, I see no major reason to upgrade as a improvement across the board. When you get rid of the Bayer, and its limitations, maybe then we can see something new in terms of pixel to pixel gains. Look at the Light.co camera, sure it maybe noverlty in comparison at this time, but its innovative, as well as Lytro, THese are completely different an new technologies that ARE available for under $2K, they maybe matured and find the right marketing to triple the price...but there is nothing new in the MFDB except some ISO gains, LiveView improvemets.
Anyway, as long as some photographers are finding a way to get advertising dollars to pay for owning such gear in the $15-30K...my hats off to you.
If Doug or Steve would help me land such jobs that pay off this gear, I wouldn't have a problem to get in line to buy one :-)
But if you think getting a MFDB will land you such jobs...be prepared to have your a$$ handed back to you.
I have a feeling if and when I take the dive in the direction of the Sony camera, and adapt the best lens I can for my macro work, I will shake my head in regret on why I didn't do it sooner. I have mentioned this before, but its been a while....
When I had the Kodak dSLR 14,mp camera with one of the higher resolving lenses, the quality of file was easily there (larger files was something I was looking for, but at the time Kodak backs were 16mp).
At the time I thought it was the Kodaks CCD sensor, non-AA, etc/ISO-6!, and these did have much influence, but using the right matching lens is ever so important.
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Medium format isn't famous for gimmicky sensor- oder camera-voodoo.
The main (or rather the only) feature is it's film/sensor size.
Cameras are a lot like cars, you get very different kinds of cars for very different purposes and you'll find that the ones that have a lot of power aren't the ones with the most luxurious and most technologically advanced features. In a F1 race car you won't find a radio, but you'll find that it's a very powerful car that's perfectly suited for its job and even though it probably won't have an automatic transmission it'll cost you more than a car with an automatic transmission. And it won't be cheap to get a service done, the tires will cost you much more than normal tires..
Same goes for big trucks.
Any vey few people need those special cars themselves, most of the F1 and truck drivers don't own the cars they are driving.
But it doesn't make much sense to complain about the fact that a F1 race car is more expensive than a Ford Focus even though both have only 4 wheels and the basic functionality is the same.
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Hi,
Formula 1 cars depreciate very fast. After a single season they have only collectors value.
Regarding pricing, the price is always what a potential buyer is willing to pay. Dealers can probably sell at higher prices, but that means that they would buy at lower prices. I have been told, by a credible source, that at least some dealers do run extensive tests on all backs they sell and they also offer some kind of warranty. So buying from a dealer reduces risk, somewhat. Electronics are normally very reliable, if well made, but they can fail at any time. MFD repairs are very expensive.
Best regards
Erik
Medium format isn't famous for gimmicky sensor- oder camera-voodoo.
The main (or rather the only) feature is it's film/sensor size.
Cameras are a lot like cars, you get very different kinds of cars for very different purposes and you'll find that the ones that have a lot of power aren't the ones with the most luxurious and most technologically advanced features. In a F1 race car you won't find a radio, but you'll find that it's a very powerful car that's perfectly suited for its job and even though it probably won't have an automatic transmission it'll cost you more than a car with an automatic transmission. And it won't be cheap to get a service done, the tires will cost you much more than normal tires..
Same goes for big trucks.
Any vey few people need those special cars themselves, most of the F1 and truck drivers don't own the cars they are driving.
But it doesn't make much sense to complain about the fact that a F1 race car is more expensive than a Ford Focus even though both have only 4 wheels and the basic functionality is the same.
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Medium format isn't famous for gimmicky sensor- oder camera-voodoo.
The main (or rather the only) feature is it's film/sensor size.
Cameras are a lot like cars, you get very different kinds of cars for very different purposes and you'll find that the ones that have a lot of power aren't the ones with the most luxurious and most technologically advanced features. In a F1 race car you won't find a radio, but you'll find that it's a very powerful car that's perfectly suited for its job and even though it probably won't have an automatic transmission it'll cost you more than a car with an automatic transmission. And it won't be cheap to get a service done, the tires will cost you much more than normal tires..
Same goes for big trucks.
Any vey few people need those special cars themselves, most of the F1 and truck drivers don't own the cars they are driving.
But it doesn't make much sense to complain about the fact that a F1 race car is more expensive than a Ford Focus even though both have only 4 wheels and the basic functionality is the same.
Yes, you can blame me for analogies...lol. this doesn't work too well either :-)
I'm not sure I'm your audience in your anecdote, but I'm familiar enough in the market as I have been watching MFDB prices for years, and been using them for a lot longer. The Foveon or Honeycomb technologies are nothing of gimmick. They are the core of technology. To put it in your context, it is a hydrogen engine. One of the main difference we talk about the difference is skin tone....Anyway. Its nice to see prices dropping..
Credo80 for $1390
IQ160 for $9100
IQ180 for $14700
Pentax 546D in the mid $2K
Pentax 645Z in the mid $5K (Also an official $1500 drop from MFG to $6999)
Nikon is still around the corner....Whos in a rush?
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Credo80 for $1390
IQ160 for $9100
IQ180 for $14700
Pentax 546D in the mid $2K
Pentax 645Z in the mid $5K (Also an official $1500 drop from MFG to $6999)
Well maybe in America the prices drop radically, but in Europe they're aren't as low.
Here a 'new' Pentax 645D still costs about 3.500$ and the 645Z 8.400 $. Maybe you're talking about the 2nd hand market? But that wouldn't be that much of a drop, now would it?
Perhaps this is the core of all that confusion and dissension; the huge price difference between America and Europe and the rest of the world...
You mentioned sensor stabilisation, the Light L16 Camera etc - those are gimmicks. They are the equivalent of an automatic transmission. Sure they make things easier and more comfortable - but it's not the right thing for everyone and everything and most of the time it's completely unnecessary and something else would do the job much better.
You talk about "NEW" as if it meant something. NEW doesn't get you anything but an ego boost. People who want "NEW" buy a 'new' iPhone every year just to have something new.
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I have photographed with 3 different makes of MFDB backs for 10 years now, and I still default to my old 22mpxl back when it comes to purchase and upgrade thoughts. I paid a lot for it at the time..at the time when digital was sort of new in the SLR world (Canon 1Ds cost me $8500) I most likely will be going to Canon, but perhaps to Sony, maybe by the time, Nikon will have something, who knows?
Anyway, as long as some photographers are finding a way to get advertising dollars to pay for owning such gear in the $15-30K...my hats off to you.
Hi Phil. If you were not able to make money from using MFDB backs, then why did you buy them? Was it for artistic gratification?
I can't speak for other photographers, but I have been able to pay off my IQ260 by billing my clients in a line item. I do a wide range of photography from advertising, corporate, commercial and magazine photography. Here is a great resource of photographers who have successfully integrated Medium format digital photography into their business, Photographer spotlights (https://captureintegration.com/category/photog-spotlight/) it's nice blog written by Capture Integration filled with great workflow tips.
I know it's not about the camera or digital back when it comes to doing great photography, it's more about the eyes and mind behind the tripod.
But I have a dirty little secret...I'm blown away by the work of Gregory Crewdson (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gregory_Crewdson) who used to shoot with an 8 x 10 camera but now shoots with an IQ180 on a tech camera. He puts a vast amount of effort on his sets and casting. Even going to a small town and talking the freaking mayor into closing off a street. Then while he directs the photographer captures it all on a MFDB.
To sum it all up, the value derived from using my IQ260 back in working on my art and striving towards my aspirational goals is priceless.
Happy friday. Let's all make some wonderful images this weekend.
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Well maybe in America the prices drop radically, but in Europe they're aren't as low.
Here a 'new' Pentax 645D still costs about 3.500$ and the 645Z 8.400 $. Maybe you're talking about the 2nd hand market? But that wouldn't be that much of a drop, now would it?
Perhaps this is the core of all that confusion and dissension; the huge price difference between America and Europe and the rest of the world...
You mentioned sensor stabilisation, the Light L16 Camera etc - those are gimmicks. They are the equivalent of an automatic transmission. Sure they make things easier and more comfortable - but it's not the right thing for everyone and everything and most of the time it's completely unnecessary and something else would do the job much better.
You talk about "NEW" as if it meant something. NEW doesn't get you anything but an ego boost. People who want "NEW" buy a 'new' iPhone every year just to have something new.
Yes, those are used.... and not specially low prices....I'm trying to stay with the thread title/"used" :-)
(But new 645z now is $6999)
Well our minimum wage here has to account/or offset for someone....Much like the entire slave population feeds the elite...., while waiters and such can actually make a living in EU :-)
Yes, I did mention that the camera is a novelty to cameras as a working tool. There was a time companies made things for the sake of innovation and doing something better, and better can often lead to new or at least improvements. What I see today is the strategy of companies maximising profit, and the grand scheme is to follow this flowchart on how to trickle down products in such a way to meet this profit bearing plan.
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Hi Phil. If you were not able to make money from using MFDB backs, then why did you buy them? Was it for artistic gratification?
I can't speak for other photographers, but I have been able to pay off my IQ260 by billing my clients in a line item. I do a wide range of photography from advertising, corporate, commercial and magazine photography. Here is a great resource of photographers who have successfully integrated Medium format digital photography into their business, Photographer spotlights it's nice blog written by Capture Integration filled with great workflow tips.
I know it's not about the camera or digital back when it comes to doing great photography, it's more about the eyes and mind behind the tripod.
But I have a dirty little secret...I'm blown away by the work of Gregory Crewdson who used to shoot with an 8 x 10 camera but now shoots with an IQ180 on a tech camera. He puts a vast amount of effort on his sets and casting. Even going to a small town and talking the freaking mayor into closing off a street. Then while he directs the photographer captures it all on a MFDB.
To sum it all up, the value derived from using my IQ260 back in working on my art and striving towards my aspirational goals is priceless.
Happy friday. Let's all make some wonderful images this weekend.
When I got my back it was long ago, and at the time I did shoots for Vogue, Town&Country, Forbes advertisers, and it paid for itself. But these advertisers have gone inhouse mostly. I'm thinking if I was in the market now, and having a family a mortgage and such, I myself find it impossible to justify spending anything over $6000-7500 for a MFDB that will be of top quality (meaning the larger IQ280 chip/80+mp). Otherwise just work on improving yourself as a photographer. We are in a age where the learning curve has shrunk to a point where starting photographers are doing free advert photography of some more complex stuff, but due to them wanting exposure, or the portfolio example on their website undercutting jobs with pennies to the dollar, that its almost equal to working as a sketch artist...well it will likely come closer to that with more time. One might make a better living setting up shop in Venice's touristic streets to sell of prints!?
OK, back to MFDB pricing.....
Lower pricing has to trickle down.....Does anyone think ...perhaps as companies that max out at 35mm FF , are now seeing that they have no choice to go larger in sensor size?
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My believe is that for a back to "make its money back" or not, is totally irrelevant to the price of it... IMO, one should think not if the price is payed back, but rather if he adds a tool he misses or not... I mean, what if a back has payed back or not if the same jobs could have been done as well (and up to the same quality) with an alternative? Partly a reason why I've only aimed for multishot backs after my first one...
As for single shot backs, I can see a reason why one would buy a FF sensor back, but I don't see a reason for the same to get an 80mp one with respect to a 60mp one... I don't see a reason why one should buy a "crazy high ISO" MFDB with respect to another that does well up to 320 ISO since he can always use a DSLR for the same job and additionally, I don't think that one should ever buy a new MFDB, unless if new prices drop to the level that one would cash it as S/H for 65% of the respective new price as it happens with DSLRs...
By the way, I'm pretty sure that if new MFDB prices drop, S/H prices will hardly be affected at all...
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AE -
I stated the manufacturers who do offer this (the number is 3, Phase One, Sinar, Hasselblad) in my post immediately preceding yours. And you are correct, neither Leica nor Pentax bother to offer it, as is their prerogative. Notably, trade in policies are maintained only by manufacturers who offer modular digital backs, as opposed to digital cameras. My point, relative to Theodoros, was that Hasselblad does have a trade in policy.
Steve Hendrix
Capture Integration
I think that upgrade path policies between MFDB makers differ considerably (and this is important to mention). The main difference between P1 policies and the rest, is that P1 offers prices that are much greater to what one would get if selling the back as S/H and they do so for third party equipment too..., while the rest of the makers, offer less than the S/H price of equipment so that they can return it into the market with some profit... Exception to the above rule, is Sinar when they take back a multishot (only) back as a trade for an (again multishot) new one, where they offer a price reduction of the new near to 30% (compare that with the 70% that P1 sometimes offers...) for the new back as to keep their leadership on this particular segment of marketing... That said, the 30% isn't all financed from Sinar, as they reduce the dealer margin on these cases because they consider (correctly) that the owner would upgrade to a new Sinarback no matter who the dealer is...
I believe that P1's policy to offer an "upgrade path" that prices the S/H back well beyond the market value, proves that P1 overprices the new products deliberately... They could as well price the new backs lower and give a "reasonable" market price for the trade as the rest do... The difference for the customer, would still be the same.
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My believe is that for a back to "make its money back" or not, is totally irrelevant to the price of it... IMO, one should think not if the price is payed back, but rather if he adds a tool he misses or not... I mean, what if a back has payed back or not if the same jobs could have been done as well (and up to the same quality) with an alternative? Partly a reason why I've only aimed for multishot backs after my first one...
As for single shot backs, I can see a reason why one would buy a FF sensor back, but I don't see a reason for the same to get an 80mp one with respect to a 60mp one... I don't see a reason why one should buy a "crazy high ISO" MFDB with respect to another that does well up to 320 ISO since he can always use a DSLR for the same job and additionally, I don't think that one should ever buy a new MFDB, unless if new prices drop to the level that one would cash it as S/H for 65% of the respective new price as it happens with DSLRs...
By the way, I'm pretty sure that if new MFDB prices drop, S/H prices will hardly be affected at all...
I guess I do agree with this, and makes more sense of an approach than my initial one....for the most part :-)
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I think that upgrade path policies between MFDB makers differ considerably (and this is important to mention). The main difference between P1 policies and the rest, is that P1 offers prices that are much greater to what one would get if selling the back as S/H and they do so for third party equipment too..., while the rest of the makers, offer less than the S/H price of equipment so that they can return it into the market with some profit... Exception to the above rule, is Sinar when they take back a multishot (only) back as a trade for an (again multishot) new one, where they offer a price reduction of the new near to 30% (compare that with the 70% that P1 sometimes offers...) for the new back as to keep their leadership on this particular segment of marketing... That said, the 30% isn't all financed from Sinar, as they reduce the dealer margin on these cases because they consider (correctly) that the owner would upgrade to a new Sinarback no matter who the dealer is...
I believe that P1's policy to offer an "upgrade path" that prices the S/H back well beyond the market value, proves that P1 overprices the new products deliberately... They could as well price the new backs lower and give a "reasonable" market price for the trade as the rest do... The difference for the customer, would still be the same.
Theodoros -
Other than your claim that Phase One prices their products "artificially high", I'm not sure what point you're trying to make, but your arguments relative to other manufacturers pricing and policies is incorrect. There has been traditionally very little difference between Phase One and Hasselblad upgrade pricing policies. And Sinar only has a few digital back models, so they're a bit of an anomaly, but even so, an 86-H traded in against an eXact provides 43% trade credit off of a $31,158 50MP sensor digital back only (that is yes, capable of 1+ gigabyte files via 16 shot multi-shot).
Hasselblad and Phase One have generally shared similar initial price points with their respective lineups. But Hasselblad prefers to make sudden substantial slashes to their prices, while Phase One prefers to keep pricing where it is for as long as possible, and offer greater trade incentives at times. From a business standpoint, I'm not sure devaluing the price point of your products 30% - 40% at a clip within a year of their release is the smartest strategy.
But in general, I just don't see any real big difference as you see it, at least from the initial price offers. Hasselblad currently offers H5D-60 for $40,990, and Phase One offers IQ360/XF/80 for $41,990, and the lowest cost upgrade for each is around $18,000.
Steve Hendrix
Capture Integration
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I'm not sure devaluing the price point of your products 30% - 40% at a clip within a year of their release is the smartest strategy.
Steve Hendrix
Capture Integration
It's certainly an effective way of pissing off (can I say that here) your early adopters.
Yes they are always going to take a hit but it is probably prudent to wait until they have forgotten how much the ticket price was having said that it seems to work for Sony although the hit is less in capital terms.
I haven't looked but does it impact rental prices as well? Pricing is as much art as science, ask Leica.
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"For the period you'll own a phase back you'll buy 10 sony's and the only difference is the sony's will always be electronically gimped, the phase will work like a proper camera and even have some software, dealers that know how to answer a question and a piece of kit that feels like it's worth the money.
Waiting for them to sell for cheap is a waste of good time."
I couldn't agree more. I recently lost some of my gear and it struck me looking through the invoices for my MF gear and digital backs and some of it that I used daily was bought back in 2010/2011 and was still just soldiering on. Ditto the couple of digital backs including my Leaf Aptus 65 and Hassy CFV-16.
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Theodoros -
Other than your claim that Phase One prices their products "artificially high", I'm not sure what point you're trying to make, but your arguments relative to other manufacturers pricing and policies is incorrect. There has been traditionally very little difference between Phase One and Hasselblad upgrade pricing policies. And Sinar only has a few digital back models, so they're a bit of an anomaly, but even so, an 86-H traded in against an eXact provides 43% trade credit off of a $31,158 50MP sensor digital back only (that is yes, capable of 1+ gigabyte files via 16 shot multi-shot).
Hasselblad and Phase One have generally shared similar initial price points with their respective lineups. But Hasselblad prefers to make sudden substantial slashes to their prices, while Phase One prefers to keep pricing where it is for as long as possible, and offer greater trade incentives at times. From a business standpoint, I'm not sure devaluing the price point of your products 30% - 40% at a clip within a year of their release is the smartest strategy.
But in general, I just don't see any real big difference as you see it, at least from the initial price offers. Hasselblad currently offers H5D-60 for $40,990, and Phase One offers IQ360/XF/80 for $41,990, and the lowest cost upgrade for each is around $18,000.
Steve Hendrix
Capture Integration
Steve... your refer to previous Hasselblad practices which I'm sure are not applied among the backs and cameras that Hasselblad recently discounted and that are all with the Cmos sensor... Hasselblad obviously doesn't want to sell other than the Cmos sensor under the same policy and additionally, I think they keep the CCD sensor products in catalog only to appear as they have a full line of products (which I feel they'll replace soon with dedicated to them sensors).... As far as Sinar is concerned, what's wrong with offering 43% for an 86H (that is in current production) for one to trade for an eXact? ....it is the same back with only the ability to do 4x isn't it? It's like if would trade a 50MS for a 200MS... 43% is fair enough for that... isn't it? They don't offer 43% no matter the back... it's only if one trades the second in line...