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Author Topic: Used digi back pricing?  (Read 32538 times)

Chris Barrett

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Used digi back pricing?
« on: February 02, 2015, 06:51:16 pm »

I'm thinking about putting my IQ 260 up for sale.  I have no idea what these things are going for.  Anybody have a clue?

Theodoros

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Re: Used digi back pricing?
« Reply #1 on: February 03, 2015, 09:42:01 am »

I'm thinking about putting my IQ 260 up for sale.  I have no idea what these things are going for.  Anybody have a clue?
What camera system it mounts on?
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Hank Keeton

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Re: Used digi back pricing?
« Reply #2 on: February 03, 2015, 11:26:57 am »

How many actuations?

What's your assessment of its condition?

Depending on any historical issues, and its present use-report....you could find the market fluctuating in the mid-to-upper teens....

If it's a Hassy-V...I might even be interested.....

Cheers,

Hank
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Chris Barrett

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Re: Used digi back pricing?
« Reply #3 on: February 03, 2015, 11:57:18 am »

Mamiya mount, mint condition & apprx 8500 actuations.  Since these were, what, about 35k new... If I couldn't get 25k, I'd just keep it.  Thanks for the feedback.

CB

buckshot

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Re: Used digi back pricing?
« Reply #4 on: February 03, 2015, 12:04:24 pm »

Since you can buy (privately) a used IQ180 with VAW for around the US$15k mark, I think you'd be hard pushed to get much more than that for a 260. Newer tech indeed, but fewer MPs tends to even out the playing field.

OT: Phase One really needs to sort their 'new' pricing out ... way overdue for a radical drop ... >60% depreciation on new (for an IQ180 with VAW) as soon as money changes hands is just utter, utter madness.
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Chris Livsey

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Re: Used digi back pricing?
« Reply #5 on: February 03, 2015, 01:27:59 pm »

Phase One IQ260 With DF+ Body and 80mm LS, 3 Year Warranty   Excellent   18900

https://dtekuk.wordpress.com/used-equipment-list/

Out of interest: Phase One IQ180 Digital Back, 1 Year Warranty   Excellent   12990

These UK prices are subject to +20% sales tax recoverable by a business.
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Ken R

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Re: Used digi back pricing?
« Reply #6 on: February 03, 2015, 02:01:38 pm »

Sorry for pointing out the obvious but like most things photography Medium Format Digital backs are tools. Like new cars, they are not good financial instruments / investments. Used they are a bit better but basically they are expenses, either 1) Personal, if you are just an aficionado or 2) Business, if you use them to make money (As a Photographer). Like in everything there are some items that are better value than others but ultimately it is a personal choice since most of us Photographers are not only craftsmen but also artists.

That said being that the IQ160 is a stunning back (I own one) the IQ260 is even more so. I for one love the look of the CCD. (I know I know CCD vs CMOS been discussed ad nauseam, beaten to death, etc). The large size of the sensor combined with it's characteristics really make it unique in today's marketplace.

Chris I would first call a dealer to get an idea and talk about options.

You can also put it on ebay and see what happens but it is somewhat of a crapshoot.
« Last Edit: February 03, 2015, 02:04:37 pm by Ken R »
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Chris Barrett

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Re: Used digi back pricing?
« Reply #7 on: February 03, 2015, 02:16:53 pm »

Ken,

It's not really a matter of ROI for me.  I've billed about 53k in digital capture fees since trading in the P65+ on the IQ260.  It's paid for itself and then some.  I just feel like these things ought to be worth more than 50% of the new price.  Of course the market is what it is...

CB

Ken R

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Re: Used digi back pricing?
« Reply #8 on: February 03, 2015, 02:25:10 pm »

Ken,

It's not really a matter of ROI for me.  I've billed about 53k in digital capture fees since trading in the P65+ on the IQ260.  It's paid for itself and then some.  I just feel like these things ought to be worth more than 50% of the new price.  Of course the market is what it is...

CB

Oh sorry Chris that first part of the message wasn't directed at you but others who keep pounding on the same value issues over and over.

Regarding specific numbers Id say an IQ260 like yours is worth over $20k still. I know a lot of people are going to say well this back went for much less etc etc but 1) they don't really know how that transaction went down and the experience of the buyer afterwards and #2) The exception is not the rule. They haven't even tried to get one themselves at those low prices.
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buckshot

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Re: Used digi back pricing?
« Reply #9 on: February 03, 2015, 03:09:40 pm »

Problem is that the P1 / Silverfleet Capital pricing structure is based around i) the upgrade-merry-go-round (make it so financially painful to get off, you'll stay on 'til the bitter end) and, ii) the notion that every one of their potential clients is shooting covers for Vogue, architecture for Foster & Partners or advertising for Saatchi & Saatchi. If only.

I'm a P1 user; my DB has paid for itself; I still think their pricing is outrageous, and I'll be amazed if the next 20 years will be as easy as the last. I don't know any pros getting into MF, only leaving it (with one going to ULF film - go figure).

Jim
« Last Edit: February 04, 2015, 05:12:18 am by buckshot »
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ndevlin

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Re: Used digi back pricing?
« Reply #10 on: February 03, 2015, 03:17:05 pm »

Upper teens sounds right.  I feel your pain, but PhaseOne's grotesque/beautiful margin (depending on your POV) doesn't do much for you in the present resale reality.

With new the CFV-50c having been on sale in Japan for just north of $10K for a while,  (until the  the global market wised-up and Hassy upped the price), I doubt many consumers will see any sense in spending upwards of $25K for a new back in the future.  That kind of caps resale.  

I could have had my pick of H4 50s and 60s, and P65+s in the $13K range a year ago.  Even that felt like an over-spend.  The IQ260 is a gorgeous back for sure, but you'll have to look hard for a buyer to whom the added benefits of the newer generation are worth an extra $10K.  

Your best bet might be to consign through a major dealer.

Good luck.

- N.
« Last Edit: February 03, 2015, 03:18:40 pm by ndevlin »
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Josef Isayo

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Re: Used digi back pricing?
« Reply #11 on: February 03, 2015, 11:50:08 pm »

Sorry for pointing out the obvious but like most things photography Medium Format Digital backs are tools. Like new cars, they are not good financial instruments / investments. Used they are a bit better but basically they are expenses, either 1) Personal, if you are just an aficionado or 2) Business, if you use them to make money (As a Photographer). Like in everything there are some items that are better value than others but ultimately it is a personal choice since most of us Photographers are not only craftsmen but also artists.

That said being that the IQ160 is a stunning back (I own one) the IQ260 is even more so. I for one love the look of the CCD. (I know I know CCD vs CMOS been discussed ad nauseam, beaten to death, etc). The large size of the sensor combined with it's characteristics really make it unique in today's marketplace.

Chris I would first call a dealer to get an idea and talk about options.


These might be tools as you describe them but it's nice when your tool holds better value when you want to upgrade to a better tool.
You can also put it on ebay and see what happens but it is somewhat of a crapshoot.

voidshatter

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Re: Used digi back pricing?
« Reply #12 on: February 04, 2015, 12:36:44 am »

When I tried to sell my IQ260 in China no one even bothered when I asked for $19K. The longer I waited, the more depreciation I suffered. Now Canon has the 50MP 5DS, which means it will even depreciate a lot more.

But that's just my story. You are in a different market and you should be able to find a decent price.
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torger

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Re: Used digi back pricing?
« Reply #13 on: February 04, 2015, 01:51:36 am »

The price of such new gear is much more difficult than older stuff that gets bought and sold over and over again. While the price of a P45+ is pretty stable, it seems like IQ260 can go for anything. I'd guess that patience is one factor, if you need to sell fast then the right buyer may not be there for you in time and you need to drop the price more than you otherwise should.

I don't think other products like CFV-50c, 135 cameras or the Pentax affects it that much, the market might have changed a bit, but Phase One still stands strong as the prestige brand of high end digital backs and the IQ260 still has a number of unique points and with some patience I think the right buyer will come. It's fullframe, it has long exposure. I have not so good idea of the right price though, although in a private sale it should be considerably lower than a dealer pre-owned sale. Maybe $20-22k?
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gazwas

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Re: Used digi back pricing?
« Reply #14 on: February 04, 2015, 03:46:35 am »

I don't think other products like CFV-50c, 135 cameras or the Pentax affects it that much, the market might have changed a bit, but Phase One still stands strong as the prestige brand of high end digital backs and the IQ260 still has a number of unique points and with some patience I think the right buyer will come. It's fullframe, it has long exposure. I have not so good idea of the right price though, although in a private sale it should be considerably lower than a dealer pre-owned sale. Maybe $20-22k?

Of course all the above especially now the new Canon and Sony 50Mpix cameras will have an effect on what the value of used backs go for. These cameras probably have no effect on new sales as the market share who buy new is already so very small. The vast majority of photographers probably have no idea what a phase One camera is other than a news post on sites like dpreview and as Phase One for what ever reason never tried to enter this market with cheaper products in reach of talented real world (enthusiasts) photographers there are not the volume of used buyers around to inflate used prices/demand.

The used price of a MFD back is what price someone is willing to pay for it which is normally way, WAY off its new value and well below the sellers expectations. We (not me any longer as I've already sole my Phase back) can all price our backs at a level we think its worth but reality is it just won't sell. I sold my back at a price I felt was much lover than it was worth but at a price the buyer was happy to pay. I got my money, he got my back at a good price so we were both happy.

One thing to consider Chris, looking at used pricing of my old back now I'm glad I made the sale when I did as I've avoided even more depreciation because the backs sell for much less now. Sure you say yours has paid for itself but its still about maximising the value of something you no longer need to invest back into your business or for new equipment.
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torger

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Re: Used digi back pricing?
« Reply #15 on: February 04, 2015, 04:49:14 am »

Ok, I'll back off a bit as first hand experience count more. Maybe a quick sell to lose as little as possible is the way to go with a high end back? I have a quite good look at the notches below the highest end, but sales of high end backs are a bit too rare for me to have a good view on how the sales go.

In the notch below highest end the enthusiasts are probably more interested in actually using an MFD camera because it's an MFD camera and having the latest technology is less crucial... if you're only in it for the latest in image quality the competition from below becomes a more obvious factor I guess.

The IQ260 is however still the king in combination with Rodenstock Digaron lenses, I think that should be worth something... Not everything can be about DR, high ISO and live view, right?
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drevil

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Re: Used digi back pricing?
« Reply #16 on: February 04, 2015, 06:46:31 am »

of course if it still has VAW it should be even more interesting to a lot of people!
as they can still change the mount for free
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AreBee

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Re: Used digi back pricing?
« Reply #17 on: February 04, 2015, 09:36:06 am »

Chris,

Quote
I'm thinking about putting my IQ 260 up for sale.  I have no idea what these things are going for.  Anybody have a clue?

You could always list the back on ebay but set a Reserve Price at a level you know nobody will pay - say, new, for example. This would allow you to determine the market value for your back without risk of it being undersold...according to your value of 'undersold'.
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Hank Keeton

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Re: Used digi back pricing?
« Reply #18 on: February 04, 2015, 10:57:07 am »

Re: the note about "change the mount for free."

As someone who is seriously in the market for one of these backs (Hassy-V, 80mp)......albeit at a manageable price, as indicted previously (mid-to-upper teens).......it's an interesting revelation to have the manufacturer tell me in writing that NO backs have their mounts changed!

The manufacturer simply charges the "would-be-changer" a fee...around $3,500...to receive the back, inspect that back....and then FIND A REPLACEMENT back with comparable quality!!!

You get to add that cost to your purchase price!

There is NO changing of the mount. Sad to say.....

Onward...all.....!!!
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Paul2660

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Re: Used digi back pricing?
« Reply #19 on: February 04, 2015, 11:06:11 am »

Re: the note about "change the mount for free."

As someone who is seriously in the market for one of these backs (Hassy-V, 80mp)......albeit at a manageable price, as indicted previously (mid-to-upper teens).......it's an interesting revelation to have the manufacturer tell me in writing that NO backs have their mounts changed!

The manufacturer simply charges the "would-be-changer" a fee...around $3,500...to receive the back, inspect that back....and then FIND A REPLACEMENT back with comparable quality!!!

You get to add that cost to your purchase price!

There is NO changing of the mount. Sad to say.....

Onward...all.....!!!

That sucks, as if you have a great back, that is dialed in, ie. (they all aren't the same) and they Phase ships a different back with a new serial number your images may be different.  I know for a fact that there are differences between my old P45+ and newer P45+ backs, based on images.  I also know that when my IQ160 went back to Phase One 2 years ago for a fix, the loaner I received, also a IQ160, did not have the same shadow recovery abilities.  I spent way too much time testing this to make sure.  The loaner also had a different tiling issue (with tech lenses) and seemed to have a bit more microlens ripple. 

Something to remember

Paul
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