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Author Topic: Used digi back pricing?  (Read 36058 times)

buckshot

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Re: Used digi back pricing?
« Reply #80 on: November 16, 2015, 09:03:40 am »

This simply isn't true...

We’re talking about two completely different scenarios.

You’re staying on the P1 upgrade merry-go-round - of course there are good inducements to keep you on the ride - there have to be - even in your case of a ‘cross-grade’ (which was never initially supported when the 2xx series was released).

I’m talking about cashing-in and getting out (or buying a DB out-with the P1 ecosystem) - completely and utterly different in every way imaginable. The IQ1 series is 5 years old. In 5 years time, take your 380 to your local P1 dealer and tell them you want to sell it, or trade it in for - say - Canon gear. Then get back to me with their offer.

Jim

P.S. Since you can get $22k for an IQ180, maybe I'll send you a few that I can pick up in the low teens - you sell them, and we'll split the difference (less expenses).  ;)
« Last Edit: November 16, 2015, 11:05:18 am by buckshot »
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buckshot

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Re: Used digi back pricing?
« Reply #81 on: November 16, 2015, 09:17:20 am »

To add - my local P1 dealer isn't interested in buying any backs for cash. 'Store credit' would be ~$9.5k for a 180 (no warranty, good condition) against non-P1 gear. Alternatively they will sell on commission at @19.5% + costs (with VAT on the sale price). If you wanted to trade it in for a new P1 DB, then the 'attractive' P1 upgrade pricing kicks in (obviously).

See the first post in this thread from back in February of the guy who wanted to upgrade (cross-grade? downgrade? confusing, eh?) his 12 month old IQ180 to an IQ250 and found out the 180 was 'worth' $10k.
« Last Edit: November 16, 2015, 11:04:04 am by buckshot »
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gerald.d

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Re: Used digi back pricing?
« Reply #82 on: November 16, 2015, 12:35:11 pm »

We’re talking about two completely different scenarios.

You’re staying on the P1 upgrade merry-go-round - of course there are good inducements to keep you on the ride - there have to be - even in your case of a ‘cross-grade’ (which was never initially supported when the 2xx series was released).

I’m talking about cashing-in and getting out (or buying a DB out-with the P1 ecosystem) - completely and utterly different in every way imaginable. The IQ1 series is 5 years old. In 5 years time, take your 380 to your local P1 dealer and tell them you want to sell it, or trade it in for - say - Canon gear. Then get back to me with their offer.

Jim

P.S. Since you can get $22k for an IQ180, maybe I'll send you a few that I can pick up in the low teens - you sell them, and we'll split the difference (less expenses).  ;)

No - we were talking about the exact same thing. Your words:

Quote
Look at an IQ180 as a final example. A P1 dealer (who you are on good terms with) - might - on a good day - offer ~$10k trade-in.

But sure - feel free to move on from that and change the goal-posts. Now you specifically want to discuss trading in against other gear, or trying to sell through, or to, the dealer.

Well guess what - it's not the dealer who's funding that 22K trade-in value.

And frankly, you'd need your head examined if you wanted to get the best price for anything by selling it to someone who makes their living by adding a margin before they then sell it on to another private individual.

And if you read my post carefully, rather than reading what you wanted in it, and twisting it to suit your own ever-changing argument, you'd actually hopefully have a little more intelligence than to accuse me of "staying on the P1 upgrade merry-go-round".

I bought my back second hand from a private individual. I'm playing the system to my own advantage because I have never - and would never - personally buy a brand new back from a dealer. That's where the big margin is - in the cash sale of a new back.

$27.5K approximately 4 years ago for a back that, IIRC, was around 15 months old at the time, and had the remainder of a 1 year additional warranty to run on it.

4 years later. Another outlay of $15K to get a brand new back that comes with a 5 year warranty.

Come back to you in 5 years time with an update? I've got better things to do with my life.

But just to entertain you, let's say that I did want to get off the "merry-go-round".

Option 1 - trade in to the IQ3 80, and then sell that on immediately.

What price those on the second hand market do you reckon?

Well, it would appear that the list price of the thing is $44K - https://www.digitalback.com/product/phase-one-iq3-80mp/

What do you reckon I could shift one for to a private individual? Brand new. Boxed. Untouched. 5 year warranty. Do I hear $30k? Seems reasonable to me (after all, I was happy to pay 27.5K for a 15 month old IQ180 a few years back that had 9 months warranty left on it).

Total outlay, $42.5K ($27.5K that I paid for the 180, plus $15K trade-in cash for the 3 80)

Cost to me to own the IQ180 for roughly 4 years - $12.5K. $8.50 a day.

Option 2 -
What if I do just dump the thing and sell it to a private individual for, say, $12K.

Cost to me to own the IQ180 for roughly 4 years - $15.5K. $10.60 a day.

You think that's a problem? Seriously? Ten bucks a day?

That's what people make (before tax) flipping burgers in McDonald's in one hour.

Just one single image sale has paid for that entire ownership period. Am I'm not even a professional.

I think you're punching above your weight if you think the cost and depreciation on these things is a problem.
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vjbelle

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Re: Used digi back pricing?
« Reply #83 on: November 16, 2015, 01:48:51 pm »


Option 1 - trade in to the IQ3 80, and then sell that on immediately.


Exactly...... that's how I would do it.  Of course, only if I wanted out.  I still have my IQ180 and a Leaf Credo 50.  My dealer really worked with me on the Leaf and I bought it with Mamiya mount really right.  I will have to think long and hard for the next upgrade.  There is nothing, though, like a 'real' live view back. 

Victor
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Theodoros

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Re: Used digi back pricing?
« Reply #84 on: November 16, 2015, 03:00:19 pm »


Well guess what - it's not the dealer who's funding that 22K trade-in value.



Of course it isn't... it's P1's policy to price the new products with fake prices that include fake buying back... Hasselblad used to that too... The thing under discussion here is what happens with pricing now that Hasselblad's new pricing policy exposed how much of the value is fake...

Do you know that some of the backs sold by dealers as S/H are in reality NEW backs that have been factory named S/H and are priced at what the price of S/H should be? What you think happens with "B-class" sensors that have inferior to A-class IQ?  ;)
« Last Edit: November 16, 2015, 03:23:45 pm by Theodoros »
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ErikKaffehr

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Re: Used digi back pricing?
« Reply #85 on: November 16, 2015, 03:16:43 pm »

Hi,

Two years ago, when I bought my used P45+ back for 10 k$US I was offered something like 20 k$US in exchange value if I upgraded to a than new IQ-back.

But, I would still need to pay something like 20k$ US in between…

Another thing, if a vendor sells a camera with a value protection plan, it should be a value protection plan, not depending if the owner wants to upgrade, downgrade or crossgrade.

Best regards
Erik



Of course it isn't... it's P1's policy to price the new products with fake prices that include fake buying back... Hasselblad used to that too... The thing under discussion here is what happens with pricing now that Hasselblad's new pricing policy exposed how much of the value is fake...

Do you know that some of the backs sold by dealers as S/H are in reality NEW backs that have been factory named S/H and are priced at what the price of new should be? What you think happens with "B-class" sensors that have inferior to A-class IQ?  ;)
« Last Edit: November 16, 2015, 05:44:48 pm by ErikKaffehr »
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Theodoros

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Re: Used digi back pricing?
« Reply #86 on: November 16, 2015, 03:46:05 pm »


  ........There is nothing, though, like a 'real' live view back.......

Victor
Cudos to that... and since it is expected that there will be no more new CCD sensor backs introduction... People better think twice when they decide on how to spent their money or "invest" on S/H... If Hasselblad decided to sell the H5D-50c WiFi for 14K in Europe and Leica did the same for its S-007, the first cameras that will appear on the S/H market should be at 65% of the new sale price (exactly like DSLRs are...) and then the MFDB market should both expand, become healthier and gain the market base it now lucks (due to backs "disappearing" from the S/H market)... Lets hope MF makers will stop "taking their own eyes off" and start pricing their products right...

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Phil Indeblanc

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Re: Used digi back pricing?
« Reply #87 on: November 16, 2015, 05:05:08 pm »

A troubillion watch in Switzerland is around $100,000 (for starters).
China now has a very nice and even attractive tuorbillion watch for $2500 with better features than some of the Swiss. They both tell the time just as accurately, and arguably as attractive or more than some.

I'm not sure why this bit came to mind as I was reading this and thinking about the MF backs and the prices they have been listed at new, but the prices do look like they fall in to the category of how Swiss watches are made vs somewhere, or even something else.  Another watch analogy...Tag Heuer announced their first luxury SmartWatch. Nicely made, with a number of capabilities MISSING, that most other smartwatches already have. And the battery life is far less than the average. But get this, you are able to trade in the smartwatch($1500) for the "real" mechanical model(Carrera $3000) at a full trade in value of $1500 plus an additional $1500 for the mechanical Carrera (after the smartwatch is obsolete in a couple years).
:-)
« Last Edit: November 16, 2015, 08:42:30 pm by Phil Indeblanc »
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Theodoros

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Re: Used digi back pricing?
« Reply #88 on: November 16, 2015, 05:46:59 pm »

A troubillion watch in Switzerland is around $100,000 (for starters).
China now has a very nice and even attractive tuorbillion watch for $2500 with better features than some of the Swiss. They both tell the time just as accurately, and arguably as attractive or more than some.

I'm not sure why this bit came to mind as I was reading this and thinking about the MF backs and the prices they have been listed at new, but the prices do look like they fall in to the category of how Swiss watches are made vs somewhere, or even something else.  Another watch analogy...Tag Heuer announced their first luxury SmartWatch. Nicely made, with a number of capabilities MISSING, that most other smartwatches already have. And the battery life is far less than the average. But get this, you are able to trade in the smartwatch($1500) for the "real" mechanical model(Carrera $3000) at a full trade in value of $1500 plus an additional $1500 for the mechanical Carrera
:-)

What is the relevance? Watches don't capture images (so that one can judge IQ to his preference) and Hasselblad is not a Chinese company... In other words there are watches, there is jewellery and there are watches that are jewels... but cameras & lenses are only tools for one to do photography... If a tool costs double the price, it has to prove its case... If it can't, the maker may look for customers that would appreciate it as a jewel, but that's not relevant to photography...  ???
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Phil Indeblanc

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Re: Used digi back pricing?
« Reply #89 on: November 16, 2015, 06:13:31 pm »

The relevence is the business model. Don't you see it?
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jsiva

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Re: Used digi back pricing?
« Reply #90 on: November 16, 2015, 06:38:09 pm »

It is as relevant as your incessant rants about the P1 conspiracy!
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Theodoros

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Re: Used digi back pricing?
« Reply #91 on: November 16, 2015, 07:05:39 pm »

The relevence is the business model. Don't you see it?

If you mean that P1 is promoting their products like being jewels instead of tools, (I may surprise you here but) no I don't... Hasselblad used to do that with some "Ferrari color" and other stupid ideas like Lunars and other crap and additionally had a policy of overpricing their products having the same business model as P1... ie the (Overpricing - trap the customer to an "upgrade path" - make him think that we stand by him - keep getting his money at what the (real) selling price should be - convince him that he needs to "upgrade") model... But now that Hasselblad stopped the "upgrade path" policy (after suffering financially because of it), they only expose (clearly) what is happening with the P1 business model...

So, no it's not the same business model as jewellery, with jewellery they don't trap you in an "upgrade path"... they rather try to directly relate products with art creations where aesthetics is the major aspect for the choice... with tools its different!

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Phil Indeblanc

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Re: Used digi back pricing?
« Reply #92 on: November 16, 2015, 07:35:26 pm »

I do understand the number of differences...I was looking at the likeness

I don't know about you, but buying the Smart watch in order to trade it in for the mechanical sure did remind me of it regardless of the market differences...

I know its not direct, ....One product has a job to capture the best quality image and the other is to be accurate in calculating seconds....but if you knew that there are some top brands that get some of the main parts made in China and then sell under the Swiss badge, you might see some lack of value in the entire "exclusivity" pricing and purchasing as I do.

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Phil Indeblanc

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Re: Used digi back pricing?
« Reply #93 on: November 16, 2015, 07:39:05 pm »

It is as relevant as your incessant rants about the P1 conspiracy!

What are you talking about?

Ah, ok...:-)
(reading your post below )
« Last Edit: November 16, 2015, 08:39:31 pm by Phil Indeblanc »
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buckshot

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Re: Used digi back pricing?
« Reply #94 on: November 16, 2015, 07:47:24 pm »

@Gerald - for reasons clearly unbeknownst to me, you seem to have taken my posts as some form of personal insult. Where analogies with McDonalds, boastful tales of how much money you make, or how much of a heavyweight photographer you are have come from, I have no idea. Quite frankly, that’s not a conversation I want to be a part of; I’m too old and have been in this business too long. I always envisioned this thread (and ones like it) as being useful to someone wanting to get into MFD on a dime, rather than someone like yourself who seems to have access to a large amount of really expensive kit (thanks for the photos of the CAPcam by the way). I’m guessing you’re independently wealthy ? In which case - good for you ! But at the same time, regarding this thread and paraphrasing Jerry Seinfeld, ‘What do you care ?’ I naturally disagree with a number of your points, feel ambivalent towards most, and acknowledge that some have merit. Going forward, I’m not going to get into some long drawn out heated debate that will bore everyone silly. Given the events of the past few days, ‘Who cares ?’

Everyone, have some peace ’n’ love bunnies:

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jsiva

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Re: Used digi back pricing?
« Reply #95 on: November 16, 2015, 08:05:27 pm »

What are you talking about?

Sorry Phil, my post appeared just below yours.  It was directed at the individual always raising a P1 conspiracy and price irregularities, certainly not at you.
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Theodoros

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Re: Used digi back pricing?
« Reply #96 on: November 16, 2015, 08:12:51 pm »

@Gerald - for reasons clearly unbeknownst to me, you seem to have taken my posts as some form of personal insult. Where analogies with McDonalds, boastful tales of how much money you make, or how much of a heavyweight photographer you are have come from, I have no idea. Quite frankly, that’s not a conversation I want to be a part of; I’m too old and have been in this business too long. I always envisioned this thread (and ones like it) as being useful to someone wanting to get into MFD on a dime, rather than someone like yourself who seems to have access to a large amount of really expensive kit (thanks for the photos of the CAPcam by the way). I’m guessing you’re independently wealthy ? In which case - good for you ! But at the same time, regarding this thread and paraphrasing Jerry Seinfeld, ‘What do you care ?’ I naturally disagree with a number of your points, feel ambivalent towards most, and acknowledge that some have merit. Going forward, I’m not going to get into some long drawn out heated debate that will bore everyone silly. Given the events of the past few days, ‘Who cares ?’

Everyone, have some peace ’n’ love bunnies:



LOL... well said, very well said... Some people are acting like if photography has progressed any better than the equipment they where using 10 years ago... To my evidence (the pictures) it hasn't... (rather the opposite) but love keeps advancing as the world keeps spinning... 
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D Fuller

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Re: Used digi back pricing?
« Reply #97 on: November 16, 2015, 11:33:27 pm »

Do you (or another)  know for sure if on screen LV of an IQ back works with the Contax? Because if it doesn't, P-65+ seems a far better option price wise...

Yes it does.  I've used an IQ 250 on a Contax with great success. Of course you have to use the bulb seting on the Contax to kep the mirror and shutter out of the way while live view is active. But it definitely works.
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gerald.d

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Re: Used digi back pricing?
« Reply #98 on: November 17, 2015, 03:26:28 am »

@Gerald - for reasons clearly unbeknownst to me, you seem to have taken my posts as some form of personal insult. Where analogies with McDonalds, boastful tales of how much money you make, or how much of a heavyweight photographer you are have come from, I have no idea. Quite frankly, that’s not a conversation I want to be a part of; I’m too old and have been in this business too long. I always envisioned this thread (and ones like it) as being useful to someone wanting to get into MFD on a dime, rather than someone like yourself who seems to have access to a large amount of really expensive kit (thanks for the photos of the CAPcam by the way). I’m guessing you’re independently wealthy ? In which case - good for you ! But at the same time, regarding this thread and paraphrasing Jerry Seinfeld, ‘What do you care ?’ I naturally disagree with a number of your points, feel ambivalent towards most, and acknowledge that some have merit. Going forward, I’m not going to get into some long drawn out heated debate that will bore everyone silly. Given the events of the past few days, ‘Who cares ?’

Everyone, have some peace ’n’ love bunnies:


See, there's a very clear pattern to your posts. Whilst this one may be all wrapped up in cuddly little bunny wabbits, once again you totally failed to directly address the actual points being discussed, and attempt instead to steer the discussion off on a different tangent, this time with a remarkable combination of ad-hominem and straw-men arguments.

Fortunately for everyone, I'm not going to fall for that tactic.

Au revoir.




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ciccio

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Re: Used digi back pricing?
« Reply #99 on: November 17, 2015, 07:03:18 am »

a real pathetic this gerald.................
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