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Author Topic: Leica S2 Pricing  (Read 86530 times)

AlDoori

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« Reply #80 on: July 31, 2009, 04:45:53 am »

Quote from: erick.boileau
* Leica S2 : 18600 €
the camera price in that leica amateur shop in hamburg and berlin is €  15630.- + 19% tax.
 
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rgmoore

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« Reply #81 on: July 31, 2009, 05:52:20 am »

What is interesting, in this and other forums, is that the usual Leica dealers/promoters have been absent since the Official US Pricing Announcement was made. No explanation, no justification for the Leica marketing strategy.

The silence is deafening.
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Geoff Wittig

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« Reply #82 on: July 31, 2009, 06:58:55 am »

Tired of the relentless erosion of their financial position and market share, disappointed by sales of their M8, Leica evidently have decided to commit corporate suicide. In the midst of the worst economic recession since 1930, the S2 is being priced at the "are you joking?" level.

I'm sure the lenses will be very nice. But Leica's track record with digital sensors is nothing to be proud of. I can't imagine what's going through their corporate minds.
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erick.boileau

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« Reply #83 on: July 31, 2009, 07:05:46 am »

yes suicide or joke
same price than an Hasselblad H3DII 50 mp  :-)
« Last Edit: July 31, 2009, 07:06:48 am by erick.boileau »
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rainer_v

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« Reply #84 on: July 31, 2009, 08:39:51 am »

Quote from: erick.boileau
yes suicide or joke
same price than an Hasselblad H3DII 50 mp  :-)

since longer time i just asked myself if some of these companies make consciously suicides, so crazy seems their firm politics to me.icide
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rainer viertlböck
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erick.boileau

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« Reply #85 on: July 31, 2009, 09:09:24 am »

Hasselblad and RED must be very happy :-)
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gwhitf

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« Reply #86 on: July 31, 2009, 09:16:08 am »

Quote from: rainer_v
since longer time i just asked myself if some of these companies make consciously suicides, so crazy seems their firm politics to me.

Let's be honest: This financial downhill slide only really began about eighteen months ago. Before that, MF was the rage of the town, and the 5D2 and all its video craze had not yet begun. So to Leica's credit, maybe they got together one day and said, "Hey, let's show these guys how it SHOULD be done, if you were building something from the ground up, (instead of trying to blow some new hot air inside a tired Mamiya 645 body)".

So they started on the project. Then the economy tanked, seemingly almost overnight.

So they had two choices:

1. Pull the plug and eat the investment.
2. Put their heads now, forge ahead, and try to weather the storm.

Apparently, they chose Option 2. Time will tell whether they can hold out long enough. But I'd be prepping those ads for placement in Cigar Aficianado, and the Robb Report, instead of Popular Photography. They need some quick cash.
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psorantin

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« Reply #87 on: July 31, 2009, 11:11:37 am »

If its the same price as a Hassy H3D-II/50MP, why not go with the S2 then?

OK, there are questions on support available, Hassy lenses you might already have.

That said aside, is it obvious that the S2 cannot compete with the Hassy?
If so, why?

Peter
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Peter Sorantin
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BJL

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« Reply #88 on: July 31, 2009, 11:40:24 am »

Quote from: psorantin
If its the same price as a Hassy H3D-II/50MP, why not go with the S2 then?
The H3DII-50 has
- a larger sensor (48x36) and thus a larger number of basically the same pixels (the new generation Kodak CCDs with 6 micron cell)
- a far more extensive lens system available now, as opposed to promised in future years.
- an extensive professional support network, rental options, etc.
So the better question is why for the same money would one go for the S system, apart from status seeking?
If one trusts computed MTF graphs as a measure of image quality, are those for Leica S lenses better than for the H system lenses, and by enough to offset the roughly 20% greater degree of enlargement needed to get a given size of print from the S2?
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JeffVo

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« Reply #89 on: July 31, 2009, 12:32:26 pm »

"depending if I opted for the Ostrich Penis Leather Case"  -TMARK   Absolutely brilliant my friend!

    In a way the S2 reminds me of the AFI/HY6.  Last year around this time (at one of the biggest photo dealers in the US) I asked how many they sold.  The answer was either 0 or 1.  I forget which, but is there a difference?.  They had one they "could" put in rental, but no one had asked about it ,so it was still in the box (didn't want to get it dirty?).  In my mind this was a really really nice "modern" camera with "superior German engineering" with probably the sharpest set of Lenses in MF.  Funny, isn't this what people are trumpeting about the S2? The price (like the leica) for both the kit (with pop up WLF!) was solidly more than the competition as were the lenses. In my mind on paper at the start this camera had a such promise for success, yet we all know what happened to it.   I'd bet dollars to doughnuts the Leica gets a similarly cool response.  What I have noticed with many "big" shooters I know is that they have put their Phases/H down and gone canon more and more.  It is in the words of many, "good enough".   Its fast and easy, and finally tethering is decent.  These are guys that can buy ANY camera.  But, the easy autofocus and ease of use and speed just trumps the phase stuff and NO AD questions which camera these people use.  People that shoot both will tell you the Phase file is better ,and it is, but too many people IQ doesn't outweigh the systems detractions.  My bet: the 1dsIV (2010?) with 30+mp 1080p 24 and the new Reds will kill what's left of Leica and.... the rest of MFD unless some yet unseen MFD product arrives (seemingly doubtful) - Jeff
« Last Edit: July 31, 2009, 12:51:02 pm by JeffVo »
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gwhitf

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« Reply #90 on: July 31, 2009, 12:52:08 pm »

Quote from: JeffVo
It is in the words of many, "good enough".   Its fast and easy, and finally tethering is decent.  These are guys that can buy ANY camera.  But, the easy autofocus and ease of use and speed just trumps the phase stuff and NO AD questions which camera these people use.  People that shoot both will tell you the Phase file is better ,and it is, but too many people IQ doesn't outweigh the systems detractions.

You've got many camps here -- you've got the MTF Chart Guys, and the Theory Guys, and the Chip Design Guys, and the Commercial Photographers and the Landscape Photographers. Everybody's invested in some way. The MTF guys I'm sure are loving the IDEA of this camera, but like Anton asks, "How many will actually write a check?". And for the pros, most of them rent anyway, so how many of them are going to write the check? So who does that leave -- Lars The Broker, in Austria, and Antonio The Coke Dealer, in Milan?

When I look at my Phase files at 100%, clearly they are superior to the 1ds3 or 5D2, but at arm's length, (the way 99% of people look at a photograph), the Canon files appear sharper because there is more inherent depth of focus, due to the smaller chip. Try it yourself -- set up a scene and shoot the MF and 35 and see which FEELS sharper when you're holding a 17x22 print in your hands, (at normal viewing distance; not Electron Microscope distance).

Also, what good is 50MP if you're light is dying, and you've got to drop to a 30th, and the mirror slap kills all 50MP of sharpness? Whereas, with the Nikon/Canon, you don't bat an eye at running the ASA on up to 800, to keep a safe shutter speed.

And my true feeling is, the 1ds3/5d2 file is more than just "good enough". It's simply a damn fine file, especially if you're shooting for money, which means either RGB at 72, or CMYK at 300. Work for hours, retouching a picture that's got a lot of blue in it, whether it's from Phase, Sinar, Leaf, Canon or Nikon, and then SoftProof it in CMYK -- it is The Great Equalizer. All those tens of thousands of dollars spent for 16 bit Medium Format, and it all washes down the drain when you convert to CMYK. So I ask you, Why spend the money...?
« Last Edit: July 31, 2009, 01:07:26 pm by gwhitf »
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rainer_v

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« Reply #91 on: July 31, 2009, 12:54:58 pm »

Quote from: JeffVo
"depending if I opted for the Ostrich Penis Leather Case"  -TMARK   Absolutely brilliant my friend!

    In a way the S2 reminds me of the AFI/HY6.  Last year around this time (at one of the biggest photo dealers in the US) I asked how many they sold.  The answer was either 0 or 1.  I forget which, but is there a difference?.  They had one they "could" put in rental, but no one had asked about it ,so it was still in the box (didn't want to get it dirty?).  In my mind this was a really really nice "modern" camera with "superior German engineering" with probably the sharpest set of Lenses in MF.  Funny, isn't this what people are trumpeting about the S2? The price (like the leica) for both the kit (with pop up WLF!) was solidly more than the competition as were the lenses. In my mind on paper at the start this camera had a such promise for success, yet we all know what happened to it.   I'd bet dollars to doughnuts the Leica gets a similarly cool response.  What I have noticed with many "big" shooters I know is that they have put their Phases/H down and gone canon more and more.  It is in the words of many, "good enough".   Its fast and easy, and finally tethering is decent.  These are guys that can buy ANY camera.  But, the easy autofocus and ease of use and speed just trumps the phase stuff and NO AD questions which camera these people use.  People that shoot both will tell you the Phase file is better ,and it is, but too many people IQ doesn't outweigh the systems detractions.  My bet: the 1dsIV (2010?) with 30+mp 1080p 24 and the new Reds will kill what's left of Leica and.... the rest of MFD unless some yet unseen MFD product arrives (seemingly doubtful) - Jeff
i sign that.
and more so because canon started to fill the niches which still had remained, i think here in the 17 and 24tse lenses, which are also not 100% on par with rodenstock/schneider equivalents, but they dont show distortion and i bet they are "good enough" too for 98% of all architectural photographs which work professional and will give what the mf backs till today not couldnt: a decent live view. i didnt expect this niche- filling but it looks like as the canon/nikon guys are thinking about how to take over the market ... and they do pretty well.
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rainer viertlböck
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pschefz

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« Reply #92 on: July 31, 2009, 01:16:39 pm »

there is an interview with a leica guy on the "outcry" over the S2 pricing...so within one day, leica has to go online justifying the price of a STILL NOT AVAILABLE camera.....well i guess they got a lot of press about this....

the point is not if leica is int he same price range as the other DMF makers....those guys have established systems, proven track record, support system, rental system,....leica has none of that....and despite all the mystic qualities, their digital record is plain awful...but there are a lot of m8 believers out there...now...years later...and only because there are more m lenses available then pretty much any other system i know of....

on paper the S2 looks like a great solution and can easily go head to head with all other DMF.....and probably beat them for the most part.....

but i think we all agree that DMF is a shrinking market....the economy is one part, more and more capable DSLRs are the much bigger part.....and in the end.....as much as i would like to have an S2 system, if i really needed the ultimate resolution and quality i would still have to go with a P65 and get stuck with a mamiya again....i would not like it at all and would much rather enjoy the S2, it will not provide the ultimate quality....and for 90% quality or way good enough for print or pretty much any professional application and much better handling, track record, high iso, faster,....there is the 2500 5DII...which just cannot be ignored in this discussion......and also takes leica lenses.....

so leica entered a dramatically shrinking market in the middle of the biggest recession we have seen in a long time and really does not even compete on price....good luck....

if anyone wants to get a DMF system with a proven record, the best lenses out there....30+mpix Hy6 with schneider lenses are available for less then 15000 these days.....

i was talking with some working pros about the S2 yesterday.....we had all agreed that we would take on in a second....but at what price....and really everybody is happy with their systems right now (canon, nikon or existing DMF) so there was really no price point....and who would trade in their working, proven phase? even if it was a straight exchange?

i guess the worst thing i can think is...as much as i want it, if i won 10million tomorrow, i still would not buy the S2...but i would write a blank check and send it off to leica for the first m9.....i really hope the S2 won't kill them....
« Last Edit: July 31, 2009, 01:21:51 pm by pschefz »
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asf

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« Reply #93 on: July 31, 2009, 01:29:51 pm »

Quote from: rainer_v
i sign that.
and more so because canon started to fill the niches which still had remained, i think here in the 17 and 24tse lenses, which are also not 100% on par with rodenstock/schneider equivalents, but they dont show distortion and i bet they are "good enough" too for 98% of all architectural photographs which work professional and will give what the mf backs till today not couldnt: a decent live view. i didnt expect this niche- filling but it looks like as the canon/nikon guys are thinking about how to take over the market ... and they do pretty well.

Exactly why I bought the 17 and 24 (and more specifically kept them after using).

All this hubub over the S2 is funny, that's why I follow this thread.

Leica is a luxury item. It will be bought because it amuses and charms those who desire it and can afford it. Working photographers (heaven help them), those who must earn money through photography, are not meant to have this camera. One of the best ways to be a successful and happy photographer is not to need to earn money through photography. NYC is full of them.

This camera will find its way into some major photo studios. Walter Chin's Car of the Month would be an appropriate chariot. Or possibly the bag of Gisele's boyfriend.
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hubell

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« Reply #94 on: July 31, 2009, 02:25:36 pm »

Quote from: gwhitf
And my true feeling is, the 1ds3/5d2 file is more than just "good enough". It's simply a damn fine file, especially if you're shooting for money, which means either RGB at 72, or CMYK at 300. Work for hours, retouching a picture that's got a lot of blue in it, whether it's from Phase, Sinar, Leaf, Canon or Nikon, and then SoftProof it in CMYK -- it is The Great Equalizer. All those tens of thousands of dollars spent for 16 bit Medium Format, and it all washes down the drain when you convert to CMYK. So I ask you, Why spend the money...?

The Phamiya P65 is $40,000. Have you see some of the photographs being taken with these cameras?

Dan Wells

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« Reply #95 on: July 31, 2009, 03:14:51 pm »

Is Leica really aiming for the tiny shred of the market who need a camera that fits both of these needs:

1.) Weatherproof, 35mm handling, better AF, fast focal plane shutter
2.) Image quality exceeding that of a camera known to be sufficient to print 24x36 inches, with 11 stops of DR

If you need weatherproofness, handling and AF that exceeds ANY medium format solution (including the Leica), there's the D3x (and, soon, Canon's answer to the D3x as well) - gallery prints up to 24x36 aren't a problem.

If you're a high end fashion or product pro who routinely prints above 24x36, you are probably shooting indoors anyway (so weatherproofing doesn't matter), and want every lens to be leaf-shutter - Hasselblad will sell you a 50 mp body and lens for less than Leica's 37 mp option, additional lenses are cheaper as well, and they have the HTS adapter.

The medium format makers are already playing "who's afraid of the D3x" - answer: the whole MF market, and here comes Leica trying to thread the needle between the D3x and DMF, at a substantially higher cost than either. To be competitive, Leica would have needed to split the difference in price between the D3x and the H3D2-50 more or less equally, as the S2 is right in between in features; not go slightly above the H3D2-50 on price...
« Last Edit: July 31, 2009, 03:15:40 pm by Dan Wells »
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gwhitf

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« Reply #96 on: July 31, 2009, 03:19:43 pm »

Quote from: hcubell
The Phamiya P65 is $40,000. Have you see some of the photographs being taken with these cameras?

I'm sure the P65+ and the Hassie50 are stellar, no doubt. But that's not my world. I'll leave that to Gursky, Crewdson, and Soth.
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hubell

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« Reply #97 on: July 31, 2009, 04:06:06 pm »

Quote from: gwhitf
I'm sure the P65+ and the Hassie50 are stellar, no doubt. But that's not my world. I'll leave that to Gursky, Crewdson, and Soth.

Sorry for not being clear. I was not being complimentary about the quality of  many of the photographs I have seen taken with P65s,  either on a technical or artistic level. My point is that there are apparently many photographers out there willing to pay $40,000 for a camera system that cannot in any rational way be justified by "need". They buy them because they can afford them, and they are the top of the heap in megapixels.
BTW, if the S2 had a 60mp chip, I think the S2 would be viewed as much better value than the 37.5mp model Leica is now selling for $23,000, even if it cost $10,000 more. Again, look at the P65 price and the price of the forthcoming Hasselblad 60mp H3D. No one seems to be freaking over those prices.
« Last Edit: July 31, 2009, 04:08:54 pm by hcubell »
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gwhitf

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« Reply #98 on: July 31, 2009, 04:20:07 pm »

Quote from: hcubell
No one seems to be freaking over those prices.

I don't think it's the price of the body. I think it's the price of the lenses, or more accurately, the price of a Complete System, and having to take a hit on the (depreciated) stuff that you already own, (and might still be making lease payments on).

Coupled with the fear that you might be paying Full Retail on a system that might be dead in the water in a year or two, if it takes the company down with it.

Interesting that Mr. Lease A Leica has not stepped forward with more "strategic investment strategies".

Here's Samy's form, 24 to 60 months:  http://www.samys.com/leasing.php
« Last Edit: July 31, 2009, 05:39:51 pm by gwhitf »
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asf

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« Reply #99 on: July 31, 2009, 04:23:09 pm »

I say, who cares about the S2? Big deal

What I'm waiting for is that animated spinning gif that's been promised for a while now
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