Leica S2 Pricing

[samirkharusi]

Hey maybe I'm wrong, but I challenge you to find me an actual customer for one of these. Not a theoretical "rich dentist" or "corporate banker" that people think will be the market for this, but you, or your friend Mikey or George, who, rich dentist or not, is actually looking at the system and the prices and is going to buy one.

I have known too many pro-photographers who are remarkably ignorant. They tend to be employed by, and their equipment is paid for by others, e.g. in government agencies or studios in department stores. Unfortunately these people do not bat an eyelid when asking for the top photographic tools (Read: the excessively expensive; cameras, lenses). They'll buy this stuff, but ultimately unlikely to bail out Leica, IMHO. There is only so much premium chargeable for German Engineering. Over some 30 years I have owned the top car model of its day from Mercedes, BMW, Jaguar, Porsche, Toyota. Most satisfying was also the cheapest: Lexus (Toyota). One could also conclude something similar using Canon or Nikon. But the German cars also sell for simply being so expensive that the neighbors know it.

[TMARK]

You are missing my point. I am not looking to buy a $250k Ferarri, but if I were, I would go for the V-12 for an extra what, $50k, over a 300 hp V-6. If I were buying a Mercedes S Class for $90k, do you think I would skip the 4-Matic to save $5k and the nav system to save another $5k? Similarly, if I were in the market for a medium format digital camera with around 39mp, which I am not, I wouldn't buy the Phamiya P45+ or the H3D-39 over the S2 just to save a few thousand dollars, if, and it's a big if, I thought the S2 was a better overall solution for me. (I doubt it will be, but that's another matter.) I expect that the S2 will be a very tough sell for those who already own a medium format digital solution with a bunch of lenses. A new buyer in the 39mp niche is another matter.

Here is the rub:  I've been offered a complete H3D239 system, and complete to me is TWO H3D239 cameras (body and back), a 50mm, an 80mm, and the 100mm for a little over $30k.  An equal S2 system looks like it would be about $60k - $70k, depending if I opted for the Ostrich Penis Leather Case.  Thats a whole bunch of premium for the red dot and high MTF graphs.

[hubell]

No, I heard you when you first drove up (as it were). You are saying that for a theoretical purchaser of medium format gear, what's a few thousand more when you're already spending that much? Listen, I spend a ton on gear. I'm saying as an actual purchaser of medium format gear, that I see no way to justify the purchase of an S2 system at those prices. I'm asking if you, anybody you know, or anybody on the forum is actually looking at the system and planning on buying it?

No, apparently you don't listen very well. I was quite explicit that I am NOT in the market for a 39mp digital solution, so of course I am not buying one. As for what real potential buyers are thinking, who knows? I don't run consumer focus groups or take polls of fellow photographers in my spare time. Moreover, who in his right mind today would be "planning" on buying the S2. The S2 hasn't even been released. No one knows its capabilities/flaws. I think it would be a bit embarrasing for anyone  to announce today, publicly or even privately, that, sight unseen, they were "planning" to buy an S2. However, it is funny to consider the possible reactions of a buyer in this market next Fall who goes into Calumet and picks up an S2 and fires off a few frames. The camera is built like a tank and falls perfectly in the hand, the images in the LCD look gorgeous, the lens looks like, well, a Leica lens, only one battery. Then, he picks up a Phase P45+ and fires off a few frames. The viewfinder jiggles around, the mirror slaps loudly, the lens feels like it's made of plastic, the camera needs two batteries, and the LCD looks like a camera phone from 1999. The Phamiya is $26,000. The S2 is $30,000. If he still goes for the Phamiya P45+, I seriously doubt it will be over the $4,000.
An interesting side note to this discussion is the Phase P65. If you believe Phase, they are selling them as fast as they can make them, and my sense is that a VERY significant percentage of these backs at $40,000 a pop is going to individuals who are not working professional photographers. If the S2 fails, it will not be just because of the price tag.

[E_Edwards]

Tell you what, if the camera is exceptionally good, there are plenty of photographers with enough money to burn on their latest fancy. No need for the dentists.

Apparently it's not all doom and gloom for everybody. This may sound like an old fart, but in my 25 years as a photographer, I've always heard photographers moan about how bad things are, no-one is hiring, blah, blah. It's always been bad....for some. Farmers always moan too, every year is a bad year.

Hell I paid more than that for an Imacon back about seven years ago and I didn't bat an eyelid. Why? Because I knew it would make me lots of money, which fortunately it did.

For many photographers, this toy is the equivalent to one or two short shoots.

Edward

[gwhitf]

Most satisfying was also the cheapest: Lexus (Toyota). One could also conclude something similar using Canon or Nikon. But the German cars also sell for simply being so expensive that the neighbors know it.

In the film days, we were talking mechanics and gearing. That's where the German engineering really stood out. But now, these cameras are more Computer than anything else, and that's where I think the Japanese are leapfrogging everyone. You want engineering: Just scroll down the Menu choices of a 1ds3 or a 5D2, compared to the Menu choices of a Phase back or a Sinar back.

Not sure that "German engineering" is the Trump Card that it used to be, in the days of Sinar 4x5 and such. And let's not even get into the high-ASA quality, and amazing Video Quality of the 5D2, (retail: $2600, out the door, with white walls).

[paul_jones]

Somebody should go into YouTube and steal that Louis Vuitton video commercial, and replace the voiceover with "Leica S2: Where Will It Take You?".

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m5xCGZuvhWI

Or have a multiple choice ad:

f*ck! thats a cool ad

[BernardLanguillier]

Hell I paid more than that for an Imacon back about seven years ago and I didn't bat an eyelid. Why? Because I knew it would make me lots of money, which fortunately it did.

In terms of opportunity costs, the real question is not whether the Leica could yield some money, but whether it could yield more money than the many other available options like:

- working with a P65+ if quality is really key,
- working with a D3x if DR, live view and/or speed/accuracy of focus are important to your applications,
- buying Yahoo stock today...

Cheers,
Bernard

[cmi]

In the film days, we were talking mechanics and gearing. That's where the German engineering really stood out. But now, these cameras are more Computer than anything else, and that's where I think the Japanese are leapfrogging everyone. You want engineering: Just scroll down the Menu choices of a 1ds3 or a 5D2, compared to the Menu choices of a Phase back or a Sinar back.

Not sure that "German engineering" is the Trump Card that it used to be, in the days of Sinar 4x5 and such. And let's not even get into the high-ASA quality, and amazing Video Quality of the 5D2, (retail: $2600, out the door, with white walls).

I dont know if comparisation of superiority of german and japanese, or whatever technology makes sense in the discussion. Undoubtely the Japanese are ahead in the sense you describe. I used the term "german engineering" merely for describing a marketing perception. Not that everybody agrees on this perception, thats not the point. But some will I guess.

All in all, from what I gather here, it might be that the S2 could appeal to and be paid by a slightly wider audience than one might think, for entirely different reasons. At the same time, it seems to be sure that at this point, nobody really expects it to become the mainstream camera for the professional photographer.

[E_Edwards]

In terms of opportunity costs, the real question is not whether the Leica could yield some money, but whether it could yield more money than the many other available options like:

- working with a P65+ if quality is really key,
- working with a D3x if DR, live view and/or speed/accuracy of focus are important to your applications,
- buying Yahoo stock today...

Cheers,
Bernard

Say the camera handles well, produces beautiful colour, density, good high ISO, without too much tweaking and is robust. Then you compare it against the nearest equivalent that does the job too, but doesn't quite feel the same in the hands, requires a little more tweaking, etc. The feel good factor alone is worth some money to some, particularly if they use the camera every day.

If they get it right, it will sell, and those who buy it are not necessarily stupid, they are clever enough to have earned the money in the first place.

It's the same argument when you aspire to Broncolor lighting instead of Bowens, or a Sinar camera instead of a Cambo, they all do basically the same job, but you just buy the best because you can. And you can offset it against taxes. If you pay a high rate of tax, at a stroke the camera is costing you 40 per cent less (in the UK).

Edward

[BernardLanguillier]

It's the same argument when you aspire to Broncolor lighting instead of Bowens, or a Sinar camera instead of a Cambo, they all do basically the same job, but you just buy the best because you can. And you can offset it against taxes. If you pay a high rate of tax, at a stroke the camera is costing you 40 per cent less (in the UK).

Right... and why then don't you use a Bentley as your company car?

This being said, I think that I do now understand why the S2 is so expensive. I believe that it reflects the investement in candles Leica had to do to sustain their prayers that Canon/Nikon don't enter the MF market in the coming months...  

Cheers,
Bernard

[rainer_v]

what i understand at no level is how people even can expect that the s2 will be better or even equalt than the phase/leaf/h/sinar backs?
how many people praise it as if it would be crystal clear that this camera will reach immediately the top end of digital imaging. i bet it wont.

all experience from the past showed that leica is at the point where one should expect that they should be after  startup. many components have been developed by third parties, as the m8 digital part by jenoptik.
the m8 might be a nice camera, the ir flaw was not wanted by noone nor by leica not by jenoptik. even in the filmdays some of their lenses have been crap too ( leice 28pc, 28-70 zoom ). yes i know this lenses have been made by schneider / sigma and the m8 ny jenoptik but leica sold branded and selected it ( and asked the double price than their counterparts for the lenses ).

i dont expect great things from the s2 till i worked with it, what i wont do because i dont have interest for this product in my field of work.
anyway, after a while we will read how good the thing will be and what will be myth on it.

[Nick Rains]

Some observations about this thread:

1. It reminds me of similar threads about the P25, P45 P65 etc - it's too expensive, no-one will buy it!

2. It's a Leica - all bets are off regarding desirability/practicality/pricing.

3. If you can't afford it, don't buy it - whether you can afford it or not is a totally personal decision.

4. It might just be awesome and indeed worth the money.

5. Some pros use their gear as a marketing aid - ad agencies have been known to pooh-pooh Canons and Nikons, insisting on MFDBs even when the ad is going to be run at A4. Name dropping 'Leica' might be worth it to some.

6. Price is not always a determinant for buying. The Holden Monaro outperforms the BMW M3 and costs a lot less - but it's not a BMW. Branding!


Having just taken a Phamiya/P45+ out for a weeks shooting in Kakadu I can say that it certainly trounces any Canon/Nikon in the quality stakes - as you'd expect. But at AUD53,000 (with the wonderful 28mm) it's not every going to be affordable by just anyone. The Canon/Nikon is better value but it's not as good from a pure quality perspective. Cost, quality, convenience - pick any two. It's quite possible that the S2 just takes this further, with more cost, but maybe more convenience and quality too.

Let's wait and see...

[BernardLanguillier]

6. Price is not always a determinant for buying. The Holden Monaro outperforms the BMW M3 and costs a lot less - but it's not a BMW. Branding!

As long as the road is straight...  

Cheers,
Bernard

[Nick Rains]

As long as the road is straight...  

Cheers,
Bernard

Check out some of the Top Gear videos - surprisingly the Monaro is pretty good in the corners, as long as you like going sideways!

[TMARK]

5. Some pros use their gear as a marketing aid - ad agencies have been known to pooh-pooh Canons and Nikons, insisting on MFDBs even when the ad is going to be run at A4. Name dropping 'Leica' might be worth it to some.

Nick,

I think this point may have been true, to a degree, a few years ago, but now, well, times change.  The only name that means anything to the CD's I work with is RED.  No matter what kind of camera you have, Leica, Red, Phase, etc., if you aren't a known quantity to an agency or friends of the decision makers at an agency, you aren't getting a job doing craft services on a shoot.  

[John Camp]

For many photographers, this toy is the equivalent to one or two short shoots.

Edward

No, for a *very few* photographers this might be the equivalent of one or two short shoots. How many photographers in the US keep ~$50,000 (a one-camera system with four lenses) after their expenses for one or two short shoots...a number which would imply an income of ~$2.5 million or so after expenses...which would imply a gross north of $20 million annually? Damn few. Is there any possibility that all of those damn few will buy a Leica? Or even, any of them -- if they're making $20 million with the Hassy, how willing would they be to risk it by shooting an unknown system?

There's a lot of b.s. floating around about "pros" and what they might do. I have a large income and the main "instrument" I use in my work is a Mac -- and it's four years old. I could easily afford another $3,000 Mac, but why would I? The one I have is fine. If you're a top-end "one or two short shoots" pro, you're already using high-end digital backs. If you buy a new one, it's a tax deduction, but after the deduction, if you're in this tax bracket, you still pay 60% of the cost out of your own pocket. For that $30,000 you could have a great month in Europe.

I have a digital M8 and I'm hoping against hope that Leica makes money from the S2 so they can afford to build the M9 and keep the M digital system going. I think the one possibility is that there are enough luxury buyers and specialist shooters who need the particular qualities of this camera, that Leica will sell enough to make enough to at least break even. That's my hope. I don't think pros will figure that strongly in the equation.

[kaimaui]

No, for a *very few* photographers this might be the equivalent of one or two short shoots. How many photographers in the US keep ~$50,000 (a one-camera system with four lenses) after their expenses for one or two short shoots...a number which would imply an income of ~$2.5 million or so after expenses...which would imply a gross north of $20 million annually? Damn few. Is there any possibility that all of those damn few will buy a Leica? Or even, any of them -- if they're making $20 million with the Hassy, how willing would they be to risk it by shooting an unknown system?

There's a lot of b.s. floating around about "pros" and what they might do. I have a large income and the main "instrument" I use in my work is a Mac -- and it's four years old. I could easily afford another $3,000 Mac, but why would I? The one I have is fine. If you're a top-end "one or two short shoots" pro, you're already using high-end digital backs. If you buy a new one, it's a tax deduction, but after the deduction, if you're in this tax bracket, you still pay 60% of the cost out of your own pocket. For that $30,000 you could have a great month in Europe.

I have a digital M8 and I'm hoping against hope that Leica makes money from the S2 so they can afford to build the M9 and keep the M digital system going. I think the one possibility is that there are enough luxury buyers and specialist shooters who need the particular qualities of this camera, that Leica will sell enough to make enough to at least break even. That's my hope. I don't think pros will figure that strongly in the equation.

I do see their system unique in some ways.
dust and moisture proofing.
Smaller body.
Hopefully better high ISO and faster shooting speeds.
Lenses that are not reliant on digital fixes.
Dng

This may not seem important to some but i do see the advantage of a system that you can have rain or sea spray on and not have to worry about it failing.
I had to send my hasseblad in to have the cover glass replaced due to moisture getting in there.
I also took some pictures of a boat recently and spent more time worrying about keeping the camera dry then actually taking photos.

If it is as reliable as a canon one series system with the output of a hasseblad that would be quite something.

[E_Edwards]

How many photographers in the US keep ~$50,000 (a one-camera system with four lenses) after their expenses for one or two short shoots...a number which would imply an income of ~$2.5 million or so after expenses...which would imply a gross north of $20 million annually?

Err, I think you are using a super-charged algorithm here.   If your overheads are in the proportion that you suggest, then a visit to your accountant may be advisable.

Edward

[Alex MacPherson]

Leica  RIP  1913-2010 ... well they almost made it to 100

[erick.boileau]

in Germany  >> http://www.meister-camera.com

    * Leica S2 : 18600 €
    * Summarit-S 35 mm f/2,5 Asph. : 4200 €
    * Summarit-S 35 mm f/2,5 Asph. CS : 4920 €
    * Summarit-S 70 mm f/2,5 Asph. : 3600 €
    * Summarit-S 70 mm f/2,5 Asph. CS : 4680 €
    * Apo-Macro-Summarit-S 120 mm f/2,5 : 5280 €
    * Apo-Macro-Summarit-S 120 mm f/2,5 CS : 6000 €
    * Apo-Tele-Elmar-S 180 mm f/3,5 : 5280 €
    * Apo-Tele-Elmar-S 180 mm f/3,5 CS : 6000 €

the lenses are pretty cheap :-)