Hasselblad X1D-50c discontinued

[BobShaw]

maybe we should get over the idea that we will get a better medium format camera that soon

Strangely, I find myself agreeing. (:-)
There seems to be a lot of people who buy a truck because it can lift heavy loads and then complain because it doesn't perform like a motorcycle.
The people who buy medium format buy them as a studio or landscape workhorse with outstanding image quality or other features like fast flash sync. If you need something else buy 35mm.

[BJL]

I think I agree with both Rob and Bob:
(a) A signifiant part of the " bigger than 36x24mm format" market involves verticals (portraits! newly wed couples!) and thus often less elongated shapes like 4:3, 5:4, maybe 11x8.5 for US letter paper format, and even 1:1. For that, the sensor size comparison is essentially the short edge, 33mm vs 24mm like 44x33 vs 32x24 for 4:3 or 33x33 vs 24x24 for squares. That is almost a doubling of usable sensor area after cropping for the desired shape, and if that translates to roughy doubling the viable print size ("one paper size up"), surely there is a place for it ...
(b) ... but one that is clearly far smaller than for cameras in 36x24mm format (which in turn is far smaller than the market for dedicated cameras in various smaller formats, which in turn is far smaller than for phone-camera formats!) and it seems best to judge it by the special needs that it serves well, not some fictional general-purpose criteria of "what serious photographers want".

[Rob C]

It's hard for me to understand some of this in today's world, because most cameras today are very good.

You can buy a Nikon D850 for about 2,200 pounds in London and it will do about anything you are requested to produce.

We're just finishing the first stage of a project in London, featuring diverse ethnicities in a non gratuitous way, in other words to present everyone with respect.

(This is just a very short test edit and will eventually include motion footage of the subject, motion city scene imagery in the background so this isn't finished, it's just a quick test for client review and a ton of footnotes.


The project and the cameras I used, most people on this site will probably never use.  We shot with a Leica S2, and a RED Epic MX using continuous lighting of Kinoflows, and LEDs.    We had on hand other cameras, 4 Canons, one Sony Mirrorless, though stuck with the S2 and RED.

The use was print-full page verticals, large posters, web, both still, multi-media and motion.

10 years ago we shot probably 70% Verticals, 30 to 40% horizontals, now it's changed 180 degrees as the web, or multimedia use is mostly horizontal. 

Though this creative brief called for both orientations.

I guess what I don't understand is the race to such high megapixels.  I'm not saying some don't need them, but a full page 350 ppi 8.5"x11" magazine cover is only a little under 13mpx and that's a pretty easy crop on the S2 as most Leicas are always 3 - 2 format.   I just drop a piece of acetate over the rear lcd with two lines that is the print formats.     In fact if I had my way all cameras would have moveable crops in the viewfinder, 1x185, 2x1, 3x2, 4x5, and even though you see crop lines in the camera you get the full captured image in post.

I've said this before and I'm not turning this into a Leica commercial, but I love those cameras, in fact since they're coming out with a new S series called the S3, Ill probably look around for a deal for that camera or the previous S (007), just for higher ISO though I rarely use ultra high ISO.

I know everyone says Leicas are too everything - expensive, difficult, costly glass, slow service, but I don't see it.   I think a new Hasselblad 60-400c is about $48,000 the newest body and back from Phase one is about the same if not more.

For my S2 when I bought it years ago, I paid 1/3 of the original list price, bought a fully active convertor to use my full set of Contax glass then added a few Leica Lenses.  A lot less than any of the other two brands and I won't say it's the easiest camera in the world to work, most medium format isn't easy and I bought it used from a dealer, that was probably a demo because it came boxed like brand new.  In fact I could not see one single mark on the entire camera.  It's had one issue as after a few years the sensor glass cracked and Leica fixed it for free.

Anyway I respect what anyone uses if they get the results and enjoy it, but I love the fact that Leica shoots a DNG file and will process in about any software suite.   I'd give anything if all makers adopted this, but I guess that will never happen.

Maybe I believe in the process of if it ain't broke don't fix it, but that's me.

I told this story before, but I was in the Leica store in LA last year and they asked me what Leicas I had and said an M8 and an S2 and of course they want to sell me new cameras.   That's fine, but I told them I really love the M8 and they said well, your in good company because the academy award winning DP Roger Deakins was in the store a few minutes earlier having his M8 cleaned.  I asked if they sold him a newer M series and they said, uh no he loves his M8 and I would imagine Mr. Deakins could buy any camera he wanted.

In fact I don't see a lot of people selling their Leicas, even if they step up to newer models.

But once again, that's just . . .

IMO

BC

I guess that's why I think there would be mileage in a mini 500C kind of camera, where you had the full height of, say, that Nikon 850 but also the same in full, square width.

Then, come rain, hail, snow, verticals or horizontals, you wouldn't need to move that camera at all. It was one of the best features of that series of the 'blad family. The Durst did all the post!

;-)

[BAB]

sirmi
I'm using version 3.4.2 take a 100mb file and view it at 100% then move the recovery slider to say 25 from 0 COUNT TO 4 or 5 and THEN you will see the result...this is not usable. Take the clarity slider do the same move it up wait 3-4 sec then move in back wait 3-4 sec then tell me if you can work that way.
It kinda like dial up verse broadband.
cheers

[SrMi]

sirmi
I'm using version 3.4.2 take a 100mb file and view it at 100% then move the recovery slider to say 25 from 0 COUNT TO 4 or 5 and THEN you will see the result...this is not usable. Take the clarity slider do the same move it up wait 3-4 sec then move in back wait 3-4 sec then tell me if you can work that way.
It kinda like dial up verse broadband.
cheers

Are you unhappy about the time it takes to complete the operation? When changing the clarity or recovery I see an instant update of my changes in Phocus (100% view). Once I release the slider, it takes about 2 seconds for Phocus to do an 'update', but I can continue to work. The 'update' is not blocking. Maybe Hasselblad should just remove the 'Update' message? I think that is a perfectly fine workflow. I am working on an iMac 2017.

[pschefz]

It's hard for me to understand some of this in today's world, because most cameras today are very good.

You can buy a Nikon D850 for about 2,200 pounds in London and it will do about anything you are requested to produce.

We're just finishing the first stage of a project in London, featuring diverse ethnicities in a non gratuitous way, in other words to present everyone with respect.

(This is just a very short test edit and will eventually include motion footage of the subject, motion city scene imagery in the background so this isn't finished, it's just a quick test for client review and a ton of footnotes.


The project and the cameras I used, most people on this site will probably never use.  We shot with a Leica S2, and a RED Epic MX using continuous lighting of Kinoflows, and LEDs.    We had on hand other cameras, 4 Canons, one Sony Mirrorless, though stuck with the S2 and RED.

The use was print-full page verticals, large posters, web, both still, multi-media and motion.

10 years ago we shot probably 70% Verticals, 30 to 40% horizontals, now it's changed 180 degrees as the web, or multimedia use is mostly horizontal. 

Though this creative brief called for both orientations.

I guess what I don't understand is the race to such high megapixels.  I'm not saying some don't need them, but a full page 350 ppi 8.5"x11" magazine cover is only a little under 13mpx and that's a pretty easy crop on the S2 as most Leicas are always 3 - 2 format.   I just drop a piece of acetate over the rear lcd with two lines that is the print formats.     In fact if I had my way all cameras would have moveable crops in the viewfinder, 1x185, 2x1, 3x2, 4x5, and even though you see crop lines in the camera you get the full captured image in post.

I've said this before and I'm not turning this into a Leica commercial, but I love those cameras, in fact since they're coming out with a new S series called the S3, Ill probably look around for a deal for that camera or the previous S (007), just for higher ISO though I rarely use ultra high ISO.

I know everyone says Leicas are too everything - expensive, difficult, costly glass, slow service, but I don't see it.   I think a new Hasselblad 60-400c is about $48,000 the newest body and back from Phase one is about the same if not more.

For my S2 when I bought it years ago, I paid 1/3 of the original list price, bought a fully active convertor to use my full set of Contax glass then added a few Leica Lenses.  A lot less than any of the other two brands and I won't say it's the easiest camera in the world to work, most medium format isn't easy and I bought it used from a dealer, that was probably a demo because it came boxed like brand new.  In fact I could not see one single mark on the entire camera.  It's had one issue as after a few years the sensor glass cracked and Leica fixed it for free.

Anyway I respect what anyone uses if they get the results and enjoy it, but I love the fact that Leica shoots a DNG file and will process in about any software suite.   I'd give anything if all makers adopted this, but I guess that will never happen.

Maybe I believe in the process of if it ain't broke don't fix it, but that's me.

I told this story before, but I was in the Leica store in LA last year and they asked me what Leicas I had and said an M8 and an S2 and of course they want to sell me new cameras.   That's fine, but I told them I really love the M8 and they said well, your in good company because the academy award winning DP Roger Deakins was in the store a few minutes earlier having his M8 cleaned.  I asked if they sold him a newer M series and they said, uh no he loves his M8 and I would imagine Mr. Deakins could buy any camera he wanted.

In fact I don't see a lot of people selling their Leicas, even if they step up to newer models.

But once again, that's just . . .

IMO

BC

i remember a high end celebrity shooter saying a few years ago that he prefers his canon DSLR for double page spreads and his phase kit for single page verticals.....so much for file size/resolution and this was years ago...i just came across posters printed from my red epic files at a clients shop the other day....i do prefer more resolution, just like i prefer more DR and less noise but since any mid range camera offers most of that these days, i am looking more and more for the camera to just make my job easier and more enjoyable while being reliable.....right now for me the biggest step in that direction is the sony eye AF...
as for the leica S system, people who use it seem to like it, so why not? i think it sits somehow my itself in terms of price and features, the GFX system accepts all glass and is probably the less emotional, cheaper and overall better recommendation but who cares?

[eronald]

In the end most -not all- photographers find the flexibility and speed of the prosumer systems pays the bills. And there is one constant most of us can't afford to ignore: To use a camera you often need to transport it.

In the same way, consumer point and shoots have always provided better images than phones, but they too have been decimated by the more flexible and lighter competition.

Edmund

i remember a high end celebrity shooter saying a few years ago that he prefers his canon DSLR for double page spreads and his phase kit for single page verticals.....so much for file size/resolution and this was years ago...i just came across posters printed from my red epic files at a clients shop the other day....i do prefer more resolution, just like i prefer more DR and less noise but since any mid range camera offers most of that these days, i am looking more and more for the camera to just make my job easier and more enjoyable while being reliable.....right now for me the biggest step in that direction is the sony eye AF...
as for the leica S system, people who use it seem to like it, so why not? i think it sits somehow my itself in terms of price and features, the GFX system accepts all glass and is probably the less emotional, cheaper and overall better recommendation but who cares?

[pschefz]

In the end most -not all- photographers find the flexibility and speed of the prosumer systems pays the bills. And there is one constant most of us can't afford to ignore: To use a camera you often need to transport it.

In the same way, consumer point and shoots have always provided better images than phones, but they too have been decimated by the more flexible and lighter competition.

Edmund

the latest phones just released....i guess 3 lens is now the new standard, which, combined with the insane computing power we now hold  in our hands and carry everywhere, of course opens up the option to combine files from all lenses to produce 40, 60, 80 mpix files.....and none of this is futuristic babble....
i recommend taking a look at the shot on iPhone winners, what struck me is that there are legitimate landscape shots in there....DR and all, great tones, and those are from last years (ancient) tech....
not saying that phones can replace high end cameras yet or that they ever really will but that is not because of the final image file....much more about workflow....the reason why the kids shoot film is because their friend with the latest iPhone might get a better shot BTS then they do with their 2 year old high end kit....

[Fotophil]

With the X1D being discontinued Hasselblad has closed the door on price reductions for their 50MP cameras.. So far it appears that Fuji will continue production of their 50MP cameras but there may not be any "fire sale" price reductions.

[faberryman]

With the X1D being discontinued Hasselblad has closed the door on price reductions for their 50MP cameras.. So far it appears that Fuji will continue production of their 50MP cameras but there may not be any "fire sale" price reductions.

Which would seem to indicate that their next camera will be an updated 50MP rather than a 100MP.

[Joe Towner]

I think I need to write an open letter to Hasselblad. They seem to be incapable of communicating to their customer base, for what ever reasons. I get it, Sony stops making the sensors & you didn't put in a big enough order. Talk about why someone should invest in the XCD mount. Talk about where the roadmap is at, and what to expect in 2019. Announce you're working on the 100mp version and will have something to show in the near future. Anything more than the silence we currently have.

Having this 'discontinued' label on the only camera that uses an entire lens lineup doesn't help anyone.  The H line needs a future, if for no other reason to keep PhaseOne creating. But unless Hass has made up with Fujinon I'm not sure what the plan is for lenses.

[Christopher]

I also don’t get it. It would be so helpful to at least now there is a plan and roadmap. Nobody asks Hasselblad, to say it will be available in June... just let us know what is happening....


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[eronald]

With the X1D being discontinued Hasselblad has closed the door on price reductions for their 50MP cameras.. So far it appears that Fuji will continue production of their 50MP cameras but there may not be any "fire sale" price reductions.

Actually Fuji is again advertising 50R bundles here in Europe. We can assume that they were able to guarantee a sufficient supply of the 50MP sensor to make their investment in product development for the "R" worthwhile, but Hassy will soon find itself competing with a $4K body if they continue the 50MP X1D series.

Thing is Fuji can now afford to order large sensor quantities, because they can always bring out a cut-price body to sell them off. A 100R is surely over the horizon around end 2020.

Hassy have a good product with the X1D series, and the lenses are getting traction, but their future strategy looks really murky at this point. I would bet on a $12K X2D-100.

Hassy's real winning product would be a $5K X2D-50 to compete with the Fuji "R".

Edmund

[hubell]

I also don’t get it. It would be so helpful to at least now there is a plan and roadmap. Nobody asks Hasselblad, to say it will be available in June... just let us know what is happening....


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I should be mystified why someone like you would conceivably care about Hasselblad's roadmap. You are totally invested in Phase One and now the Fuji GFX system, and you have already announced you are buying the GFX 100S just as soon as it is released.  However, it seems you just want to create FUD. If you ask the people who actually own X1Ds, they are primarily focused on WHEN they can buy the newly released lenses for the X1D system (and a zoom), as Hasselblad is having a hard time meeting the demand for the newly released lenses. I am well aware that the X1D is "discontinued." To me, that's GOOD news. That means that something is coming fairly soon that I am confident will be an improvement over the X1D. I just took delivery of the $5k XCD 135mm lens with the dedicated tele-converter that converts the lens into a 240mm lens. It is a beautifully designed lens "system." It weighs less than one-half of the combination of the Fuji GFX 120mm and 250mm lenses. In the 2 years since Hasselblad released the X1D, they have released 8 new lenses plus a teleconverter for the X1D. For a small, boutique camera company, that's pretty impressive.
BTW, I don't really see Phase One issuing roadmaps. I don't recall any pre-announcement of the IQ4150. They announced it when it was "ready" for sale (albeit with crippled firmware). It seems  that the approach of pre-announcing and strategically leaking future product information and issuing roadmaps is pretty much a Fuji thing.

[eronald]

In a way I agree with you. Hassy's problem is not a roadmap, or a lack of product, or a lack of lenses, they have a fine product and good lenses, it is simply that Fuji is ready and able to drop prices down to the ground to own the market.

This is reminiscent of the 60s when the Japanese camera makers killed the Europeans by rapidly bringing out well engineered products with a few additional features at really low prices, taking the long view that they would then own the market.

Also Fuji have a strong incentive to be present in MF as they don't compete in fullframe .

Edmund

I should be mystified why someone like you would conceivably care about Hasselblad's roadmap. You are totally invested in Phase One and now the Fuji GFX system, and you have already announced you are buying the GFX 100S just as soon as it is released.  However, it seems you just want to create FUD. If you ask the people who actually own X1Ds, they are primarily focused on WHEN they can buy the newly released lenses for the X1D system (and a zoom), as Hasselblad is having a hard time meeting the demand for the newly released lenses. I am well aware that the X1D is "discontinued." To me, that's GOOD news. That means that something is coming fairly soon that I am confident will be an improvement over the X1D. I just took delivery of the $5k XCD 135mm lens with the dedicated tele-converter that converts the lens into a 240mm lens. It is a beautifully designed lens "system." It weighs less than one-half of the combination of the Fuji GFX 120mm and 250mm lenses. In the 2 years since Hasselblad released the X1D, they have released 8 new lenses plus a teleconverter for the X1D. For a small, boutique camera company, that's pretty impressive.
BTW, I don't really see Phase One issuing roadmaps. I don't recall any pre-announcement of the IQ4150. They announced it when it was "ready" for sale (albeit with crippled firmware). It seems  that the approach of pre-announcing and strategically leaking future product information and issuing roadmaps is pretty much a Fuji thing.

[hubell]

The biggest mistake Hasselblad could make is to come out with a new X1D Mark II with the same Sony 50mp sensor and try to compete with Fuji on price. Even if they price it at $5k, the XCD lenses are still way more expensive. The way to compete with Fuji is not to compete with Fuji. Go upmarket with an X2D with the new Sony 100mp sensor and design a beautiful camera that is half the size and weight of the GFX 100S and charge $12k for it. That camera would be something very different from what Fuji will be selling, and I believe that’s the market niche that Hasselblad should pursue. It’s really what they tried to do with original X1D. They sold vastly more of them than they ever expected to sell, but imagine how they would have done if their timing and execution were better.

In a way I agree with you. Hassy's problem is not a roadmap, or a lack of product, or a lack of lenses, they have a fine product and good lenses, it is simply that Fuji is ready and able to drop prices down to the ground to own the market.

This is reminiscent of the 60s when the Japanese camera makers killed the Europeans by rapidly bringing out well engineered products with a few additional features at really low prices, taking the long view that they would then own the market.

Also Fuji have a strong incentive to be present in MF as they don't compete in fullframe .

Edmund

[Kirk_C]

The way to compete with Fuji is not to compete.

It seems to me that's always been their stance and a good explanation for the lack of a road map for future products.

[eronald]

The biggest mistake Hasselblad could make is to come out with a new X1D Mark II with the same Sony 50mp sensor and try to compete with Fuji on price. Even if they price it at $5k, the XCD lenses are still way more expensive. The way to compete with Fuji is not to compete with Fuji. Go upmarket with an X2D with the new Sony 100mp sensor and design a beautiful camera that is half the size and weight of the GFX 100S and charge $12k for it. That camera would be something very different from what Fuji will be selling, and I believe that’s the market niche that Hasselblad should pursue. It’s really what they tried to do with original X1D. They sold vastly more of them than they ever expected to sell, but imagine how they would have done if their timing and execution were better.

This vision of the European product as relegated to become a prestige style accessory seems deadly. Hassy the successful colleague of Leica and Ferrari hahaha. With a rangefinder and stick-shift, maybe?

History shows us how TTL metering became the killer feature for the SLR, and I wonder whether the same won't happen here with the combination of IBIS and electronic shutter becoming the defining feature of the next generation Medium format camera, a box that can adapt just about any old lens.

Let's not forget that in the end SLR viewing and TTL metering are what did in Leica. Even though most members of this forum will deny it, functionality does count for some users, including those few who are still earn their living clicking the shutter.

Edmund

[Christopher]

I really don’t see your problem. I certainly don’t need to create FUD. Hasselblad is doing that perfectly fine by themself.

I care about products and new developments. Only because I am currently invested in Phase and Fuji does not mean I will be in two years from now. I was heavily invested in Canon, Nikon and Leica, I’m not anymore.

It’s nice you focused on lenses. Great for you. It’s also great you spend 5k on a very nice lens. However, your drawing the comparison with Fuji and here the Hasselblad looses again, for me. The Fuji 120 has IS, which for me is hugely beneficial and the 250 has it as well and combined with the Tele converter it’s has so much more reach.

Your are correct in one thing, for me a X1D-100 wouldn’t change anything as long as there is no Tele for the X line. However, it’s also the other way around.

I also don‘t see why you get Phase one in to the mix? We were talking about Hasselblad communication problem. However, you are correct that Phase one isn’t much better in communication.... which is sad.

I should be mystified why someone like you would conceivably care about Hasselblad's roadmap. You are totally invested in Phase One and now the Fuji GFX system, and you have already announced you are buying the GFX 100S just as soon as it is released.  However, it seems you just want to create FUD. If you ask the people who actually own X1Ds, they are primarily focused on WHEN they can buy the newly released lenses for the X1D system (and a zoom), as Hasselblad is having a hard time meeting the demand for the newly released lenses. I am well aware that the X1D is "discontinued." To me, that's GOOD news. That means that something is coming fairly soon that I am confident will be an improvement over the X1D. I just took delivery of the $5k XCD 135mm lens with the dedicated tele-converter that converts the lens into a 240mm lens. It is a beautifully designed lens "system." It weighs less than one-half of the combination of the Fuji GFX 120mm and 250mm lenses. In the 2 years since Hasselblad released the X1D, they have released 8 new lenses plus a teleconverter for the X1D. For a small, boutique camera company, that's pretty impressive.
BTW, I don't really see Phase One issuing roadmaps. I don't recall any pre-announcement of the IQ4150. They announced it when it was "ready" for sale (albeit with crippled firmware). It seems  that the approach of pre-announcing and strategically leaking future product information and issuing roadmaps is pretty much a Fuji thing.

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[hubell]

I agree completely. You certainly don’t “need” to create FUD, so why spend so much time doing it?
It’s a big world out there, and not all photographers have the same needs and not all companies need to operate the same way. The most valuable company in the world is Apple. Do you see Apple running around pre-announcing its future products and leaking information to a “house” rumor site? To the contrary, it’s obsessed with secrecy about its plans. Same for Phase One, which is why I brought it up.

I really don’t see your problem. I certainly don’t need to create FUD. Hasselblad is doing that perfectly fine by themself.

I care about products and new developments. Only because I am currently invested in Phase and Fuji does not mean I will be in two years from now. I was heavily invested in Canon, Nikon and Leica, I’m not anymore.

It’s nice you focused on lenses. Great for you. It’s also great you spend 5k on a very nice lens. However, your drawing the comparison with Fuji and here the Hasselblad looses again, for me. The Fuji 120 has IS, which for me is hugely beneficial and the 250 has it as well and combined with the Tele converter it’s has so much more reach.

Your are correct in one thing, for me a X1D-100 wouldn’t change anything as long as there is no Tele for the X line. However, it’s also the other way around.

I also don‘t see why you get Phase one in to the mix? We were talking about Hasselblad communication problem. However, you are correct that Phase one isn’t much better in communication.... which is sad.




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