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Author Topic: Hasselblad X1D-50c discontinued  (Read 10577 times)

BernardLanguillier

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Re: Hasselblad X1D-50c discontinued
« Reply #20 on: February 10, 2019, 08:43:54 am »

What other chip can they use? Sony is the only manufacturer of MF sensors.

The Leica S sensor is larger than 24x36 and isnít designed or manufactured by Sony.

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landscapephoto

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Re: Hasselblad X1D-50c discontinued
« Reply #21 on: February 10, 2019, 08:45:28 am »

But the MF market is a small market and electronics need economy of scale to be priced competitively. Also: MF sensors are bigger than what many foundries are capable of. So it is not as if a dozen competitors had interest in making MF sensors at the price people are ready to pay.

Someone posted a link to the Sony sensor website on another forum and it seems that they only offer the 100 mpixels model in the x1.3 MF size, there is no info about availability of a 50 Mpix model:
https://www.sony-semicon.co.jp/products_en/IS/sensor2/products/index.html
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landscapephoto

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Re: Hasselblad X1D-50c discontinued
« Reply #22 on: February 10, 2019, 08:48:29 am »

The Leica S sensor is larger than 24x36 and isnít designed or manufactured by Sony.

Yes, Leica wanted a 3x2 format which Sony did not offer. Is that chip still in production? How many were made? Is the number of chips manufactured compatible with the price point of the X1D and Fuji MF cameras?
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eronald

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Re: Hasselblad X1D-50c discontinued
« Reply #23 on: February 10, 2019, 01:46:17 pm »

Yes, Leica wanted a 3x2 format which Sony did not offer. Is that chip still in production? How many were made? Is the number of chips manufactured compatible with the price point of the X1D and Fuji MF cameras?

You know how it works - if you have a sensor in one form factor, you can within limits repurpose the design in another form factor - whether this may make economic sense is a different story. And "crop MF" is now like 35mm a few years ago, a format that is a bit expensive but probably within the ability of a bunch of fabs. It's obvious Fuji will stay with Sony, but I think Panasonic now own Tower Jazz and I think they made the last Leica MF sensor, and Pana have a new set of still/video prosumer products so they're certainly current on sensor tech.

Also, machine vision is turning into a high-volume tech business, so I think more actors are going to flood in, and thus more camera sensors will be a byproduct.

Feel free to fact check!

Edmund

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tcdeveau

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Re: Hasselblad X1D-50c discontinued
« Reply #24 on: February 10, 2019, 02:31:31 pm »

Even if itís possible to source sensors from other vendors (like towerjazz), I donít see any reasons why they wouldnít use the 100mp IMX461 sensor from Sony.

They already have a R&D relationship with Sony, it should have excellent tech specs, and itís readily available. Unless the relationship with Sony has soured, or they found some other magic sensor that is technically superior (like global shutter with 30 stops of DR and instanteous ES readout), why would they try to reinvent the wheel? Seems like their resources are better focused on improving the function and usability of the body itself, which is what users seem to want most.

The 50mp sensor seems to be discontinued. Maybe theyíre sitting on a pile of them that need to get rid of, but I think itís time to move onward and upward from the current 5+ year old 50mp sensor (although the image quality is still and will continue to be excellent) to the IMX461 100mp sensor.

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eronald

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Re: Hasselblad X1D-50c discontinued
« Reply #25 on: February 10, 2019, 03:38:21 pm »

Even if itís possible to source sensors from other vendors (like towerjazz), I donít see any reasons why they wouldnít use the 100mp IMX461 sensor from Sony.

They already have a R&D relationship with Sony, it should have excellent tech specs, and itís readily available. Unless the relationship with Sony has soured, or they found some other magic sensor that is technically superior (like global shutter with 30 stops of DR and instanteous ES readout), why would they try to reinvent the wheel? Seems like their resources are better focused on improving the function and usability of the body itself, which is what users seem to want most.

The 50mp sensor seems to be discontinued. Maybe theyíre sitting on a pile of them that need to get rid of, but I think itís time to move onward and upward from the current 5+ year old 50mp sensor (although the image quality is still and will continue to be excellent) to the IMX461 100mp sensor.

I think you answer the question yourself - a Panasonic sensor might be superior in some essential way to the Sony one. Or do you think that a good business model for Hassy is reusing the same components everyone else employs, except selling cameras twice as expensively?

We all know that Global shutter carries a price of about 1 bit DR. It might be worth paying.

Global shutter, or fast ES would make sense as they would make any old lens cheaply compatible with the body. Either might also serve to get high DR with multiple exposures, I think that's what the iPhone does. Also a really high readout rate might make electronic stabilisation or superresolution possible, for all I know.

I think it's time someone bypassed the Sony virtual monopoly on sensors; competition keeps everyone honest.

Fuji are making it clear that they will field IBIS by June, plan to bring out a small modular MF model, and tilt-shift lenses and they have made a real effort to price lower; Hassy needs to fid some way to innnovate as well.

Edmund

PS. I think the long shutter delay on the X1D is a real issue for portrait and fashion guys, and they need to find a solution.
« Last Edit: February 10, 2019, 03:42:03 pm by eronald »
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BJL

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Re: Hasselblad X1D-50c discontinued
« Reply #26 on: February 10, 2019, 05:35:24 pm »

There is some rather magical thinking going on here! Yes, I am sure that in principal, Hasselblad could turn to CMOSIS (sensor supplier of Leica's 45x30mm sensor) for another 44x33mm sensor ó which based on the performance of existing CMOSIS sensors would be distinctly inferior to what Sony can offer, and at a higher price due to the reduced volume on that bespoke sensor. Or Hasselblad could seek to differentiate itself from its Fujifilm competition by procuring supplies of the six year old discontinued lower resolution Sony 50MP 44x33mm sensor. But it won't.

The only fantasy I have not seen yet is that the next Hasselblad mirrorless X model will be FULL FRAME! and all the existing X lenses secretly cover the larger 70mm image circle required (which is why they cost so much!?)

P.S. There are many ways that different MF systems distinguish themselves from their competition; jumping from their established, industry-leading sensor supplier is probably not a good option for Hasselblad.
« Last Edit: February 10, 2019, 05:51:22 pm by BJL »
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tcdeveau

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Re: Hasselblad X1D-50c discontinued
« Reply #27 on: February 10, 2019, 05:54:16 pm »

Regarding my question though, many of us existing X1D simply want a better X1D and weíll be happy - not a GFX killer. Hasselblad doesnít need to engage another sensor manufacturer and find a better-than-IMX461 sensor to make that happen. If they just drop in the IMX461 sensor in and add the improvements many have been asking for with the X1D (shorter boot time, AF joystick, live histogram, etc) they will deliver what many of us are looking for, myself included. They donít need to reinvent the wheel.

Long term, youíre right, maybe using the same components as Fuji and charging a price premium wonít work for them, and pursuing other options may make more sense. It definitely is hard to ignore the GFX price point, and Hasselblad may need to address that long term or sooner. I have no complaints with any Sony sensor Iíve ever used (Nikon D8xxís, A7R, A7RII, 645z, X1D), but Iíd be happy to see some competiton. Iím brand agnostic at the end of the day but think competition is good for all of us end users.
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hubell

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Re: Hasselblad X1D-50c discontinued
« Reply #28 on: February 10, 2019, 10:19:54 pm »

How can Hasselbladís next generation X2D with the Sony 100mp cropped MF sensor possibly compete with the Fuji GFX 100S? Actually, very easily. Take a look at the GFX 100S.
https://3.img-dpreview.com/files/p/TS560x560~forums/62285861/8aa8b50cd77c46d09fbcdfdb389f0356 
I have never seen an uglier, more ungainly looking camera. This does not look like it was ďdesigned.Ē More like cobbled together, with one module after another being glued to the bottom. Does it strike you as a camera you are just dying to pick up and shoot with?

eronald

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Re: Hasselblad X1D-50c discontinued
« Reply #29 on: February 11, 2019, 12:28:30 am »

How can Hasselbladís next generation X2D with the Sony 100mp cropped MF sensor possibly compete with the Fuji GFX 100S? Actually, very easily. Take a look at the GFX 100S.
https://3.img-dpreview.com/files/p/TS560x560~forums/62285861/8aa8b50cd77c46d09fbcdfdb389f0356 
I have never seen an uglier, more ungainly looking camera. This does not look like it was ďdesigned.Ē More like cobbled together, with one module after another being glued to the bottom. Does it strike you as a camera you are just dying to pick up and shoot with?

You are quite right, and in fact Fuji has started showing what happens when they take the modules apart and make a modular MF camera.

There is a precedent for ugly ugly ugly, it was called Sinar M.

Edmund
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Christopher

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Re: Hasselblad X1D-50c discontinued
« Reply #30 on: February 11, 2019, 03:41:50 am »

And it wonít compete at all with the old 50MP sensor, but Iím sure there will be enough people to drop another 8k on a new model with minor upgrades.


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hubell

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Re: Hasselblad X1D-50c discontinued
« Reply #31 on: February 11, 2019, 09:01:47 am »

And it wonít compete at all with the old 50MP sensor, but Iím sure there will be enough people to drop another 8k on a new model with minor upgrades.


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Translation?

vjbelle

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Re: Hasselblad X1D-50c discontinued
« Reply #32 on: February 11, 2019, 05:22:35 pm »

MPOV is that if you want 100MP in a mirrorless then the Fuji is it for now - regardless of size.  Heat, battery and sensor are all factors that influence the body size.  Hassy can't possibly make anything smaller.  This is it for now.... No matter what I'm in on this ride.... :)

Victor
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Doug Peterson

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Re: Hasselblad X1D-50c discontinued
« Reply #33 on: February 11, 2019, 08:33:36 pm »

MPOV is that if you want 100MP in a mirrorless then the Fuji is it for now - regardless of size.

Notably, the number of currently shipping 100MP mirrorless cameras currently stands at:
Phase One: 1
Fuji: 0

So I assume you mean that "if you want 100mp in a mirrorless with autofocus, then Fuji will be it when the GFX ships."

Kirk_C

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Re: Hasselblad X1D-50c discontinued
« Reply #34 on: February 11, 2019, 08:55:52 pm »

Notably, the number of currently shipping 100MP mirrorless cameras currently stands at:
Phase One: 1
Fuji: 0

So I assume you mean that "if you want 100mp in a mirrorless with autofocus, then Fuji will be it when the GFX ships."

Doug what does the Phase One 100MP mirrorless, manual focus camera cost ?
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hubell

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Re: Hasselblad X1D-50c discontinued
« Reply #35 on: February 11, 2019, 10:06:29 pm »

MPOV is that if you want 100MP in a mirrorless then the Fuji is it for now - regardless of size.  Heat, battery and sensor are all factors that influence the body size.  Hassy can't possibly make anything smaller.  This is it for now.... No matter what I'm in on this ride.... :)

Victor
I do not believe thatís true. The X1D is smaller than the current Fuji GFX bodies. More significantly, the Hasselblad X2D with the 100mp sensor will likely not have IBIS. That seems to be the reason for a considerable increase in the size of the Fuji GFX 100S.

Christopher

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Re: Hasselblad X1D-50c discontinued
« Reply #36 on: February 12, 2019, 01:17:40 am »

True perhaps, but than again, for me IBIS is the biggest feature on a MF camera. Mich more interesting than a Resolution hike.


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Christopher Hauser
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BernardLanguillier

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Re: Hasselblad X1D-50c discontinued
« Reply #37 on: February 12, 2019, 02:05:32 am »

True perhaps, but than again, for me IBIS is the biggest feature on a MF camera. Mich more interesting than a Resolution hike.

Interesting. To me it is by far a competitive AF over the whole viewfinder.

IBIS is a nice to have one as far as I am concerned.

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Bernard

eronald

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Re: Hasselblad X1D-50c discontinued
« Reply #38 on: February 12, 2019, 05:36:35 am »

Fuji have been showing mockups of a small modular mirrorless MF concept at their Dubai meet. So small is possible for 100MP.

I personally like the Canon 1D series form factor of the GFX-100 - when you spend hours moving around shooting people as verticals rather than landscapes, the second shutter button and bottom grip make a very real difference. As does frame rate and AF speed, actually. The large batteries usually move the glass faster.

And although having an assistant change your batteries inspires 120 magazine nostalgia every two hours or so, I know quite a lot of photographers who would appreciate a camera that can run for a day with no issues.

I'm sure that people who want a stylish and fairly compact MF solution in the near term will find that Hasselblad provides it, at the price of some missing functionality like IBIS.

Edmund

« Last Edit: February 12, 2019, 05:46:51 am by eronald »
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hubell

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Re: Hasselblad X1D-50c discontinued
« Reply #39 on: February 12, 2019, 08:48:43 am »



I'm sure that people who want a stylish and fairly compact MF solution in the near term will find that Hasselblad provides it, at the price of some missing functionality like IBIS.

Edmund

I would only use the word "stylish" to describe the next generation Hasselblad if I wanted to imply that those that buy it are buying it as a chic, fashion accessory. I can't imagine that was your intent.
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