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Author Topic: Canon's new mirrorless system - announcement on September 4  (Read 30304 times)

shadowblade

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Re: Canon's new mirrorless system - announcement on September 4
« Reply #20 on: August 29, 2018, 03:10:43 am »

Not sure you'd need new lenses. Nikon is showing that you can get good AF performance with existing glass on a mirrorless sensor (according to reports, hard to distinguish from DSLR performance), if the AF is designed not to need contrast AF to reach sufficient accuracy.

So this is really a technological implementation story.

Cheers,
Bernard

The reports all seem to mention hunting, and a certain sluggishness that isn't there when using the same lenses on an SLR. Sounds similar to Sony bodies with adapted Canon lenses, really, and similar to what you get with Sigma Art FE-mount lenses. It's not an issue when you don't need fast AF anyway - no problems for landscapes or still portraits - but doesn't sound great for shooting action.

(Yes, I know there are plenty of examples of A9 and A7r3 bodies being used successfully with Canon superteles and other lenses to shoot wildlife. It works. It just isn't as quick or responsive as the same lenses on a Canon SLR, even when the Canon body doesn't normally have as good an AF system as the Sony, e.g. A9 vs 5D4. Same goes for FE-mount Art lens on a Sony body vs the EF-mount version on a Canon, so you can't blame it on the Metabones adapter either).
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Rado

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Re: Canon's new mirrorless system - announcement on September 4
« Reply #21 on: August 29, 2018, 04:48:42 am »

I don't believe it will have on sensor stabilization, at best it will have software stabilization for video like the current M models. I'm not sure Canon even has patents covering on sensor stabilization.
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davidgp

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Re: Canon's new mirrorless system - announcement on September 4
« Reply #22 on: August 29, 2018, 06:04:20 am »

I don't believe it will have on sensor stabilization, at best it will have software stabilization for video like the current M models. I'm not sure Canon even has patents covering on sensor stabilization.

You mean... like this ones?

- https://www.canonrumors.com/patent-canon-not-closing-the-door-on-in-body-image-stabilization/
- https://www.canonnews.com/canon-patent-application-on-sensor-stablization

Rado

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Re: Canon's new mirrorless system - announcement on September 4
« Reply #23 on: August 29, 2018, 06:39:41 am »

Well if they do it I'll be happy because IBIS is great. I just don't believe it will happen soon. Signed, a long time Canon user :p
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davidgp

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Re: Canon's new mirrorless system - announcement on September 4
« Reply #24 on: August 29, 2018, 09:16:28 am »

Well if they do it I'll be happy because IBIS is great. I just don't believe it will happen soon. Signed, a long time Canon user :p

Yes, I was also a Canon user... and a bit skeptical about what they do now in the future aswell :), although I will be happy for Canon to make me wrong :)

chez

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Re: Canon's new mirrorless system - announcement on September 4
« Reply #25 on: August 29, 2018, 09:43:03 am »

Not sure you'd need new lenses. Nikon is showing that you can get good AF performance with existing glass on a mirrorless sensor (according to reports, hard to distinguish from DSLR performance), if the AF is designed not to need contrast AF to reach sufficient accuracy.

So this is really a technological implementation story.

Cheers,
Bernard

Actually in an interview with Nikon engineers it appears like the focus accuracy with legacy lenses won't be as good as with new lenses and AF in dim light with f2 and slower lenses will suffer.
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BernardLanguillier

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Re: Canon's new mirrorless system - announcement on September 4
« Reply #26 on: August 29, 2018, 06:03:25 pm »

Actually in an interview with Nikon engineers it appears like the focus accuracy with legacy lenses won't be as good as with new lenses and AF in dim light with f2 and slower lenses will suffer.

Could we keep this thread focused on Canon?

Nikon said that focus accuracy with F mount lenses on FTZ will be as good as it is on a D850 (which is great) and that native Z lenses will be even more accurate. That’s what they said, not the negative partial interpretation you are attempting to turn it into.

The part about f2 isn’t coming from Nikon engineers. The word “actually”, in it’s generally accepted English meaning, doesn’t belong to your sentence. Apologies if you are not an English native speaker.

Look, if you are right that the Nikon Z is an inferior product, presenting objective information about it should be sufficient for the world to understand, right?

DPreview has just released a Z7 vs a7rIII comparison. I am comfortable with they conclusions, are you?

In short, Z7 more pleasant to use (body, EVF,...), Sony faster. Sony more lenses but Nikon probably better quality potential.

Choose what matters to you and go take some great photographs, please.

Cheers,
Bernard
« Last Edit: August 29, 2018, 09:11:18 pm by BernardLanguillier »
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shadowblade

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Re: Canon's new mirrorless system - announcement on September 4
« Reply #27 on: August 30, 2018, 04:09:27 am »

Accuracy is only one aspect of AF performance. Speed is equally important if the subject is moving. Then there are also special modes (e.g. eye detection).

'Accuracy' itself can be divided into two aspects - accuracy (how close to the target it gets) and precision (how wide the spread is). Jim Kasson has tested and compared the A7r3 and D850 exhaustively. In AF-S mode, the A7r3 is much more accurate and precise than a D850, even with proper microadjustment - it doesn't front- or back-focus and has a smaller spread. In AF-C mode, the A7r3 has similar precision to the D850, but greater accuracy - it still doesn't front- or back-focus, but loses some precision, since CDAF plays less of a role. The D850 has the same accuracy and precision in both modes.

Where the D850 wins out in some circumstances is speed. Some of this is actually perception rather than reality - in AF-S mode, the A7r3 can sometimes appear to hunt, but, by the tine it starts doing that, it has already engaged PDAF and is already focused as accurately as the same camera in AF-C mode, or the D850 in any mode. What it's doing then is using AF-C to refine focus further, which is why AF-S on the camera is so accurate and precise. It is programmed to do that because, if you are using AF-S, the target is presumably not moving much, giving you more time to achieve better focus. When heavily stopped down, PDAF may not even engage, the camera using the far slower (but highly accurate) CDAF instead. In AF-C mode, both cameras are just as fast at achieving focus on a static subject - where PDAF is possible, the A7r3 does not appear to use CDAF much (if at all) for refinement in this mode. The D850 is probably faster at tracking certain subjects as they move, but that is an all-or-nothing issue - either the system is fast enough for a certain subject, in which case the ability to move faster makes no difference, or it's not fast enough. There's no such thing as 'moves slower, but still keeps up' - it either keeps up or it doesn't. The net effect is that the D850 can track slightly faster-moving subjects than the A7r3 (relative to subject distance). When they can track, both systems are just as effective as each other, but the D850 can track in a slightly greater range of situationsthan the A7r3. But this all changes when the system can engage eye focus. In that case, the A7r3 can maintain accurate and precise focus through almost any movement, and outperforms every camera other than the A9 (and sometimes even that, where the combination of distance and resolution allows the A7r3 to engage eye detection, while the A9 is unable to).

So, in general terms:
Still = A7r3
Very fast non-human (e.g. pets at close range) = D850
Moving human with eyes visible = A7r3
Most moving subjects outside the extremes = no difference
« Last Edit: August 30, 2018, 04:30:29 am by shadowblade »
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Martin Kristiansen

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Re: Canon's new mirrorless system - announcement on September 4
« Reply #28 on: August 30, 2018, 05:01:49 am »

Bernard the only time you mentioned Canon in your post was when you requested to keep this thread focussed on Canon.

Perhaps we should have a new thread to compare between the now multiple mirrorless offerings.
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BernardLanguillier

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Re: Canon's new mirrorless system - announcement on September 4
« Reply #29 on: August 30, 2018, 05:05:37 am »

Bernard the only time you mentioned Canon in your post was when you requested to keep this thread focussed on Canon.

Perhaps we should have a new thread to compare between the now multiple mirrorless offerings.

Martin,

You are leaving me speechless... how on earth am I to blame for the posting of blatantly incorrect information about a Nikon camera in a thread that should be devoted to Canon...

Cheers,
Bernard

shadowblade

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Re: Canon's new mirrorless system - announcement on September 4
« Reply #30 on: August 30, 2018, 05:48:50 am »

Really, the aspects most relevant to the market success of the new Canon camera are the ones which haven't been commented on much - card slots, shutter modes, AF performance, intelligent AF modes, buffer, video output and lens availability at launch and within the first year or so.

The exact specifications of the sensor don't actually matter all that much. Whether it's 24MP or 28MP, it's not a megapixel monster - it's not competing against the A7r3, D850 or Z7 for ultimate image quality or base-ISO output. It just needs to be a decent all-rounder, performing well at ISO 6400 as well as ISO 200. And almost any sensor Canon could possibly put out should meet the necessary standard.

Most of the exact details of the RF mount also don't particularly matter. No matter what it is - even if it's physically identical to the EF mount - you're going to be up for new lenses. Same applies if you move to Nikon or Sony, so there's no disadvantage to Canon there - if you want to move from SLR to mirrorless and take full advantage of the technology, you'll need new lenses. The one thing that would make a difference is if the new mount can actually accept EF-mount lenses without an adapter. That would allow Canon to design all future EF-mount lenses with linear stepper motors, allowing equal use on both SLR and mirrorless bodies, giving Canon a major advantage during the transition period (before the AF performance of their mirrorless bodies can match the best of their SLRs).

But these other factors will determine which section of the market it suits, how well it fulfils its role and whether it provides a compelling reason to switch now (as opposed to waiting 2-3 generations).

Dual card slots mean the difference between a camera suitable for professional use and one that's not. Even if it's a one-in-a-million chance of failure, if you miss someone's wedding or lose half the photos at a function, you're not getting hired again (and could be up for a large chunk of money). And many non-pros also don't appreciate spending $15k and several weeks' leave to go shooting photos somewhere exotic, only to come back with nothing. Considering that the Sony bodies have two slots and the new Nikons only have one, this will be a major factor in determining where the Canon fits within the mirrorless ecosystem.

AF performance is the second big factor. Is it at the level of the A9/A7r3/A7III, or more like the A7II/A7r2 (as the Z6/Z7 are supposed to be)? Can it match the 5D4 AF-wise, or will an early adopter be sacrificing AF performance compared to an SLR, even using native mirrorless lenses? This will be one of the big factors determining whether it makes sense for people to switch to Canon mirrorless now or whether it makes sense to wait another generation or two, since SLR would still give better performance and they'd get little out of switching except a smaller, less-capable body. Intelligent AF modes - face detection, eye focus, etc. - will be equally important. At 24-28MP, and without long telephotos to go with it, this is neither a wildlife camera nor a landscape/non-action camera. A lot of the time, it will be used to take photos of people - portraits, events, weddings, concerts, etc. At the moment, eye focus gives Sony a major trump card over SLRs in these settings. Whether Canon can match this could mean the difference between having a real contender for for that purpose, or just another camera that's almost an 'SLR with an EVF'.

Video output will be another big factor. This is a general-purpose camera, not a dedicated megapixel monster. Shooting events (whether in amateur or professional hands), it will likely be shooting a combination of stills and video - event and wedding photographers are increasingly doing both as part of combined multimedia packages. And mirrorless cameras, much more than any SLR, are well-suited to capturing video - a mirrorless camera is effectively a video camera that shoots extremely high-resolution video at an extremely slow frame rate, with EVFs, focusing systems, etc. all being the same. The new Nikons appear to have a very capable log format - can Canon match this?

Finally, the lenses available at launch, and within the first year of release (after 1 year, you may as well wait for the next generation of bodies), will have a major impact on uptake. Is Canon going to release slower, smaller lenses, indicating a focus on the downsizing and light-travelling crowd (with serious photographers expected to either stick with SLR or go for Sony), or f/2.8 zooms and f/1.4 primes, which would indicate a focus on capturing the higher-end market before Nikon can?
« Last Edit: August 30, 2018, 06:09:24 am by shadowblade »
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Martin Kristiansen

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Re: Canon's new mirrorless system - announcement on September 4
« Reply #31 on: August 30, 2018, 06:04:34 am »

Fair enough Bernard. But you wrote let’s keep this focussed on Canon then never mentioned Canon again. You have to see the humour in that?
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mcbroomf

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Re: Canon's new mirrorless system - what card type?
« Reply #32 on: August 30, 2018, 07:42:05 am »

They must. Otherwise either all their sensors would have column parallel ADC, or none of them would. 1Dx2 and 5D4 have it, but 6D2 does not.

What is it about column parallel ADC that makes it a fab issue (vs design)

thx
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shadowblade

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Re: Canon's new mirrorless system - what card type?
« Reply #33 on: August 30, 2018, 07:54:36 am »

What is it about column parallel ADC that makes it a fab issue (vs design)

thx

It requires fitting more components and more circuitry into the same space, so calls for the ability to manufacturer smaller components and finer architecture.
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mcbroomf

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Re: Canon's new mirrorless system - announcement on September 4
« Reply #34 on: August 30, 2018, 08:11:26 am »

Thanks ...
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BernardLanguillier

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Re: Canon's new mirrorless system - announcement on September 4
« Reply #35 on: August 30, 2018, 08:28:14 am »

Fair enough Bernard. But you wrote let’s keep this focussed on Canon then never mentioned Canon again. You have to see the humour in that?

 :D

Cheers,
Bernard

Dan Wells

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Re: Canon's new mirrorless system - announcement on September 4
« Reply #36 on: August 30, 2018, 05:44:57 pm »

If these rumors are correct, it causes me to wonder about Canon's strategy... Why go with a single, relatively unambitious body? It isn't especially high resolution, it isn't especially high speed, and it isn't groundbreakingly cheap. Maybe there's something that hasn't appeared in the specs to date - very small? Native EF mount? Unusual image quality in some way? Very high maximum ISO (or very low minimum ISO)?

Assuming that the specs we haven't seen contain no surprises:

The Sony A7III is around the same price, but has a full system behind it - unless it's native EF, the Canon won't at first. (it also has very effective IBIS, which the Canon may or may not) 

Older editions of the A7 series are either much cheaper (A7, A7II) or around the same price, but with a much higher resolution sensor with class-leading image quality (A7rII) - possibly at the cost of some video quality and features (we don't know exactly what the Canon has). They also tie in to the full Sony system.

The Nikon Z6 is about the same price and resolution, significantly faster (unless the Canon's 10 FPS spec is wrong), and has high-grade weather sealing (Sonys don't - we don't know about the Canon).

The Fuji X-T2, upcoming X-T3 and X-H1 are cheaper, offer similar resolution (albeit on a smaller sensor), and offer superb image quality with a line of lenses matched to the sensor. One of the disadvantages of APS-C other than Fuji is that APS-C lenses tend to be low-end (with a few exceptions), and FF lenses are both needlessly large and have odd equivalent focal lengths. Fuji solved that problem with a big line of superb custom lenses. At most, there's a half-stop noise and DR difference between really good 24 MP APS-C and 24 MP full-frame (unless Canon is sitting on a sensor breakthrough), and it might be less than that. 24 MP FF makes sense largely due to the lenses, with puts Fuji as a serious competitor.

It's possible, of course, that the new Canon has some "Aha" feature that suddenly makes it make sense. If it's essentially a 6D mkII with an unusual mount, for significant extra money, what makes it appealing?





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BJL

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Re: Canon's new mirrorless system - announcement on September 4
« Reply #37 on: August 30, 2018, 07:54:09 pm »

...  Maybe there's something that hasn't appeared in the specs to date ... Native EF mount?
At the rumored price, I very much doubt any jump forward in image quality. But I do expect that, for around $2100 plus a tube of superglue, there will be a DIY EF-mount version, and thus the biggest (and according to some, the best) selection of first party lenses of any ILC.

As with Nikon Z, I think some people are underestimating the preference that many camera buyers have for the Canon and Nikon lens systems over any other 35mm format system, and expectations that many of the technological advantages that those two companies have can carry over from their SLR systems. Not to mention the more vague "halo effect" of brand prestige.
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chez

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Re: Canon's new mirrorless system - announcement on September 4
« Reply #38 on: August 30, 2018, 08:41:38 pm »


It's possible, of course, that the new Canon has some "Aha" feature that suddenly makes it make sense. If it's essentially a 6D mkII with an unusual mount, for significant extra money, what makes it appealing?

Just putting Canon onto the front of the camera makes it appealing to the masses.
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digitaldog

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Re: Canon's new mirrorless system - what card type?
« Reply #39 on: August 30, 2018, 09:37:02 pm »

Who says Canon *has* new fab lines?
Sony are now the Usain Bolt of sensors -  competing in every race and winning it.

Edmund
As a long time Canon shooter (albeit older 5DMII), got my 'feet wet' on mirrorless with a Sony RX-10IV and love it, now I've got want bumps for the A7III. 24MP is all I need.
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