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Author Topic: Canon's new mirrorless system - announcement on September 4  (Read 30303 times)

BJL

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Re: Canon's new mirrorless system - announcement on September 4
« Reply #60 on: August 31, 2018, 01:10:46 pm »

The comment was that the short flange distance allows wide-angle lenses to be made without a retrofocus (or telecentric) design to save space. I mentioned why it wasn't a good idea.

You can put the rear element of the lens anywhere. The important thing is that you have a retrofocus or telecentric design, rather than going without it just to save space.
Agreed; my comment was more to Alex Waugh than to you. In fact the use of telecentric zoom designs with rear elements very close to the sensor in compact cameras suggests that this helps to keep size down, which is why new shallower mount options benefit mirrorless cameras even when the high exit pupil of a near-telecentric design is needed (so that the designs are very different from wides for rangefinder film cameras; those can be even smaller)
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Alex Waugh

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Re: Canon's new mirrorless system - announcement on September 4
« Reply #61 on: August 31, 2018, 06:09:49 pm »

Agreed; my comment was more to Alex Waugh than to you. In fact the use of telecentric zoom designs with rear elements very close to the sensor in compact cameras suggests that this helps to keep size down, which is why new shallower mount options benefit mirrorless cameras even when the high exit pupil of a near-telecentric design is needed (so that the designs are very different from wides for rangefinder film cameras; those can be even smaller)

I did a bit more research and it looks like you're right. Glad to learn something new, thanks for the help!

I am extremely interested in seeing these lenses, I hope if they're big the body is also an appropriate size.
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Alex Waugh

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Re: Canon's new mirrorless system - announcement on September 4
« Reply #62 on: August 31, 2018, 09:21:48 pm »

Specs and pictures are up, sorry I don't have time to embed.

https://www.nokishita-camera.com/2018/09/eos-r.html

Pretty wild design from Canon.
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BernardLanguillier

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Re: Canon's new mirrorless system - announcement on September 4
« Reply #63 on: August 31, 2018, 09:27:53 pm »

Specs and pictures are up, sorry I don't have time to embed.

https://www.nokishita-camera.com/2018/09/eos-r.html

Pretty wild design from Canon.

Hum... but does it have IBIS and 2 memory card slots? :D

Cheers,
Bernard

Alex Waugh

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Re: Canon's new mirrorless system - announcement on September 4
« Reply #64 on: August 31, 2018, 09:34:12 pm »

Hum... but does it have IBIS and 2 memory card slots? :D

Cheers,
Bernard

Can't even mention the good points can you  ;D
Probably puts a dirty taste in your mouth!

More importantly, no joystick or wheel. I am interested to see how this contraption works.
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shadowblade

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Re: Canon's new mirrorless system - announcement on September 4
« Reply #65 on: August 31, 2018, 09:35:31 pm »

More information

- 30.3MP sensor. Despite the similar resolution, it has to be a completely different design to the 5D4 sensor, in order to incorporate dual pixel AF. If it even matches it in image quality, it will be more than a credible sensor given its product placement, but, given that the 5D4 is two years old, there's a reasonable chance the new sensor will outperform it.

- AF to EV -6. This is a big one - neither Nikon's nor Sony's current offerings (whether SLR or mirrorless) can match this. Of course, being technically able to focus in such darkness is different from actually being competent and reliable when doing so - if you can even see what you're trying to focus on in the first place.

- AF coverage - 100% vertical, 88% horizontal. Meh - unless you're tracking wildlife, since when did you need to focus on things at the edge of the frame? Even when tracking wildlife, you'd probably be acquiring focus somewhere around the middle third of the frame anyway. AF near the edge is mostly to continue tracking the subject as it moves within the frame, not to actually shoot with. And we probably won't have long, fast superteles for action/wildlife photography for a while anyway - not within the product cycle of this first-generation body (except see last point).

- 4K video. Good, but is this at 60fps or 25/30fps? And what's the output format?

- Same battery as the 5D series, so lots of power available.

- 580g weight. No indication of whether this is with or without the battery. Either way, it's tiny.

- 54x20mm lens mount. This would clash with an EF mount, so the mount won't be able to take both EF and RF lenses.

- The adapter mentioned is an EF-to-R adapter. So definitely no dual-capable mount, otherwise they wouldn't need it. There was mention of a 'control ring adapter' and a 'drop-in filter adapter' - no idea if they're the same thing. [EDIT: Looks like they're three different adapters]

Re: long telephotos:

- No RF-mount long telephotos likely in the immediate future, but the 400/2.8 III and 600/4 III are due to be announced at around the same time. If these use linear stepper motors instead of Canon's ring USM system, they should be usable on mirrorless bodies with no loss of AF capability (this goes with both Canon and Sony bodies, via a Metabones adapter). Most older lenses, obviously, will not have these motors and will suffer a loss of performance. Really, with mirrorless and video taking off and adapters playing a significant role, there is little reason for Canon, Nikon and Sigma to design any future lenses without linear stepper motors, for dual use on mirrorless and SLR bodies.
« Last Edit: September 01, 2018, 12:55:53 am by shadowblade »
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Martin Kristiansen

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Re: Canon's new mirrorless system - announcement on September 4
« Reply #66 on: September 01, 2018, 01:52:46 am »

Looks more interesting to me than the Nikon offering. AF to -6. As you say shadow. How can you even see what you are focussing on. Except of course with a good EVF the signal is boosted and you will see I suppose. 30 MP is a little more than expected but not so much. Funny but it falls in a sweet spot for me. Commercially I always think of 24as a bit too little for some stuff hardly ever need over 40 I sort of bounce between the two and have both. With a 30MP I would be tempted to go with just that.

Really like my Sony system but this is quite interesting.
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davidgp

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Re: Canon's new mirrorless system - announcement on September 4
« Reply #67 on: September 01, 2018, 02:59:29 am »

More information

- 30.3MP sensor. Despite the similar resolution, it has to be a completely different design to the 5D4 sensor, in order to incorporate dual pixel AF. If it even matches it in image quality, it will be more than a credible sensor given its product placement, but, given that the 5D4 is two years old, there's a reasonable chance the new sensor will outperform it.

- 4K video. Good, but is this at 60fps or 25/30fps? And what's the output format?

- Same battery as the 5D series, so lots of power available.


- with just 0.1 difference... I will not be surprised if it is just a version of same sensor design... to recover money of the design of the 5D Mark IV design.

- 4K vídeo good... but more important, which codec? If Canon uses the same one as original Mark IV camera will be a disaster... even if it does 60fps... unless you use an external recorder.

-Z7 uses same battery as D850... and bad CIPA rating... so I will not be surprise if the same happens here



http://dgpfotografia.com

shadowblade

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Re: Canon's new mirrorless system - announcement on September 4
« Reply #68 on: September 01, 2018, 03:49:35 am »

Looking at the lenses, it looks like there's a raised, textured ring on each lens, just behind the red ring. This ring isn't there on Canon SLR lenses.

I wonder if this is a control ring or simply cosmetic. Given that it's on the control ring adapter and not the other two, I'm guessing it's some sort of control ring. No indication as to the function, though - maybe it's a programmable control ring, a bit like the programmable lens buttons on Sony lenses.

Probably the best thing Canon could do along with the mirrorless launch on Sep 5 is announce a lens and body timeline, just like Nikon has - it would provide more insight into their plans and give various segments of photographers some idea as to when they can expect the mirrorless system to be ready for them.

Certainly, I'd expect a 70-200/2.8 fairly soon, as the other primary lens for wedding/photojournalistic work, with a 16-35/2.8 not long after that. A 100-400 will probably also come relatively quickly, since it's such a useful and universal lens for general photography, filling different roles in different kits. I'd also expect a 24-70/2.8 at some stage - the 28-70/2 does not replace this, since it would leave a gap between 24mm and 28mm when combined with a 12-24 or 11-24 lens, although the existence of the 28-70 makes this lens much less of a priority than it would otherwise have been.

Prime-wise, I'd expect fast (f/1.2 or f/1.4) 35mm and 85mm lenses to be among the first, as well as some kind of macro. Superteles may not happen for a while - not until other niches are filled and there is a suitable, A9-type body to go with them. A 200/2 or 200/1.8 may happen sooner, though, due to its use by wedding and portrait photographers. Tilt shifts will probably not happen for a long time - not only are they a small niche, but there is also no penalty to using existing ones via an adapter, since they don't autofocus anyway.
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Rado

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Re: Canon's new mirrorless system - announcement on September 4
« Reply #69 on: September 01, 2018, 05:31:40 am »

Spec wise this looks closer to a mirrorless version of 5D4 so I'm highly skeptical of the 2K price tag. But I'd be happy to be proven wrong. EF adapter with drop in filters sounds pretty cool.
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BJL

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Re: Canon's new mirrorless system -with USM lenses
« Reply #70 on: September 01, 2018, 07:49:25 am »

The rumored R lenses are mostly USM (ring motors) rather than linear stepper motors. This goes with a interview I read where Canon says that, with its dual pixel AF, USM is still the fastest for AF, with linear motors only best for video, for their quietness.

If so, the fears of worse AF performance with adapted lenses might be unfounded.
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shadowblade

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Re: Canon's new mirrorless system -with USM lenses
« Reply #71 on: September 01, 2018, 08:36:17 am »

The rumored R lenses are mostly USM (ring motors) rather than linear stepper motors. This goes with a interview I read where Canon says that, with its dual pixel AF, USM is still the fastest for AF, with linear motors only best for video, for their quietness.

If so, the fears of worse AF performance with adapted lenses might be unfounded.

This would also indicate a pure PDAF approach, with no CDAF or AI-based (e.g. eye detection) refinement. Ring motors are fast for single, fast moves, but not much good at the small movements for refinement. If USM is faster for these bodies, it would indicate the lack of a refinement mechanism. In that case, I'd be interested in seeing comparisons of AF accuracy and precision between it and the Sony bodies, in both AF-S and AF-C modes.
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BernardLanguillier

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Re: Canon's new mirrorless system - announcement on September 4
« Reply #72 on: September 01, 2018, 09:31:13 am »

Can't even mention the good points can you  ;D
Probably puts a dirty taste in your mouth!

I was obviously joking. Although I am still on the fence about the Z7 because of this single memory card issue...

The R sounds like a very decent FF mirrorless body. The AF sensitivity is very appealing. That is currently the main aspect I can see myself salivating for. But I don’t know if we need -6, I have never had problems focusing my DSLR specced at -4 even in very dark places.

0n the other hand, I am scratching my head a bit about the lens line-up. The 24-105 is obviously a great alrounder, 50mm f1.2 great too. But why a 28-70 f2 lens? Why not a 24-70 f2??? How useful is a transtandard lens going no wider than 28mm? The main purpose of a zoom lens is to cover a majority of the shoothing circumstances you may encounter without having to change lens, right? But I used to always try to go wider than 28mm when I was shooting events with my 28-70 f2.8.

And if I don’t attempt to cover this typical range, then why not with a prime that is lighter, more compact and descrete, better optically, cheaper,...?

Cheers,
Bernard

chez

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Re: Canon's new mirrorless system - announcement on September 4
« Reply #73 on: September 01, 2018, 09:38:53 am »

I was obviously joking. Although I am still on the fence about the Z7 because of this single memory card issue...

The R sounds like a very decent FF mirrorless body. The AF sensitivity is very appealing. That is currently the main aspect I can see myself salivating for. But I don’t know if we need -6, I have never had problems focusing my DSLR specced at -4 even in very dark places.

0n the other hand, I am scratching my head a bit about the lens line-up. The 24-105 is obviously a great alrounder, 50mm f1.2 great too. But why a 28-70 f2 lens? Why not a 24-70 f2??? How useful is a transtandard lens going no wider than 28mm? The main purpose of a zoom lens is to cover a majority of the shoothing circumstances you may encounter without having to change lens, right? But I used to always try to go wider than 28mm when I was shooting events with my 28-70 f2.8.

And if I don’t attempt to cover this typical range, then why not with a prime that is lighter, more compact and descrete, better optically, cheaper,...?

Cheers,
Bernard

A 24-70 f2 would be huge. Making it a 28-70 f2 allows for a size that is acceptable. Most likely we'll see the traditional 16-35, 24-70, 70-200 f2.8 zooms at later releases.
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Dan Wells

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Re: Canon's new mirrorless system - announcement on September 4
« Reply #74 on: September 01, 2018, 09:51:46 am »

If that 28-70 f2 is really a f2.0 (rather than a f2.8 with a widely repeated specification error), it is much more interesting than the body. Sigma has made a few zooms faster than f2.8, but they share three characteristics.

1.)Very short zoom ratios (they are about 2:1, and they are all unusual zoom ranges we haven't seen in many years - I don't think one of them was actually a 35-70, but they're that kind of ranges).

2.)They're huge

3.)Most, if not all of them are APS-C

This is a full-frame lens, with a 2.5:1 zoom ratio over a useful zoom range (28-70 was the professional standard until a relatively recent move to 24-70). Stretching a (slower) wide zoom to 28 to meet it shouldn't be that much of a challenge - Canon has had a reasonable-sized 16-35 for years, which makes me think that a 14-28 instead of a 14-24 is probably not an optical unicorn.

We haven't seen any specifications on size or weight, but the images that are out there (none of which show f2.0 markings) suggest that it's only a little chunkier than the 24-105 f4. If we assume that lens is reasonably average-sized for a 24-105 f4 (which is a common lens) then this one isn't wildly oversize. As a matter of fact, it's pretty much the expected size for a 28-70 f2.8.

I think it's a mislabeled f2.8 lens.

...The other option is a breakthrough. Is it a DO (fresnel) lens? Canon's DO (and Nikon's PF) telephotos are unexpectedly small and light for their aperture, and they look about a stop slower than they actually are. I've never heard of a fresnel normal lens, and I'm not sure if it would work.

 If it is f2.0, it is within 1/3 of a stop of three popular primes. How's the image quality - if it's DO, there have been some quirks so far - are they worked out?



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shadowblade

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Re: Canon's new mirrorless system - announcement on September 4
« Reply #75 on: September 01, 2018, 10:59:10 am »

28-70/2.0 would complement, not replace, a 24-70/2.8.

For shooting events. 28mm is more than wide enough for group portraits and environmental portraits, while f/2.0 gives much better subject isolation for portraits against busy or unappealing background you have little control over, as well as more light for indoor settings when you don't want to use flash. Combined with a 16-35/2.8 and 70-200/2.8, it would be a full setup for wedding photography as well, for some photographers obviating the need for a fast prime setup as well.

But, for a more general-purpose kit, where you wanted to include a 12-24 or 11-24 lens, you'd still want the 24-70 (or 24-105, if you can get away with f/4 and slightly less sharpness in that range). I'd be hesitant to leave a gap between 24-28mm, since that represents a significant difference in composition, and because UWA zooms are rarely particularly good at the long end of their focal length range. But, with a 28-70 for the event photographers and a 24-105 kit lens at launch, and no 11-24 lens in the immediate future, the 24-70/2.8 can probably now wait a bit longer than it otherwise could have.

I can't imagine them bringing out a 28-70/2.8 - that would be a big step backwards compared to what everyone has been bringing out over the past decade and a half. And, looking at the photos, the 28-70 appears significantly larger than the 24-105 - around 25% longer and wider, or quite a lot larger than the difference between the EF 24-70/2.8 and EF 24-105/4.
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DP

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Re: Canon's new mirrorless system - announcement on September 4
« Reply #76 on: September 01, 2018, 12:26:55 pm »

Sigma has made a few zooms faster than f2.8, but they
but they are for dSLRs, when you make for it dSLM you save size wise @ wider end and by not going to 24 save more...
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DP

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Re: Canon's new mirrorless system - announcement on September 4
« Reply #77 on: September 01, 2018, 12:32:22 pm »

AF to -6.
AF always spec'd for a particular aperture (usually @ F2.0)... if this is for F2.0 and not say marketing trick by saying EV-6 @ F1.2 (with Canon RF 50mm f/1.2L USM)  than it is a very good step... but even EV-6 @ F1.2 is stil better than EV-4 @ F2.0
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Christopher Sanderson

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Re: Canon's new mirrorless system - announcement on September 4
« Reply #78 on: September 01, 2018, 03:20:33 pm »

More EOS-R leaked info via EOS-HD here
-and in Japanese on Nokishita here
« Last Edit: September 01, 2018, 03:25:49 pm by Chris Sanderson »
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BJL

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Canon's new mirrorless system — *three* different mounts, lots of adaptors!
« Reply #79 on: September 01, 2018, 05:05:26 pm »

After all the last gasp hopes for Canon's 36x24mm mirrorless system to use EF mount and avoid the dreaded adaptors — and my failed prediction of using EF-M mount or some tricky dual-mount system — Canon has gone the opposite way, with a third mount and three different types of adaptors needed for:
- EF lenses on EOS-M bodies
- EF lenses on R bodies
- R lenses on EOS-M bodies

I like the idea of using the dead space in some adaptors for drop-in filters.

P. S. The slender new ring near the front of some R lenses is described as a "multi-function ring" at this EOSHD page: put aperture there if you want? Or even ISO speed??
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