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Author Topic: Canon's new mirrorless system - announcement on September 4  (Read 30205 times)

eronald

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Re: Canon's new mirrorless system - what card type?
« Reply #40 on: August 30, 2018, 10:46:25 pm »

As a long time Canon shooter (albeit older 5DMII), got my 'feet wet' on mirrorless with a Sony RX-10IV and love it, now I've got want bumps for the A7III. 24MP is all I need.

I think that the RX10 is unique.

But if you want a Sony SLR, maybe at $1K the old A7II is unbeatable. For features, with fullframe and IBIS, it's unbeatable.

https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1102008-REG/sony_ilce7m2_b_a7ii_mirrorless_digital_camera.html

In the end one can mostly carry only one camera, unless a cartful of equipment is one's business. I think the RX10 hits a sweet spot, where portability and functionality combine, just like the RX100, the Leica Q, the Fuji X100 and ... the iPhone (or Android). Once you are distant from that combination of portability and functionality, what you have is a specialised tool, or a gadget.


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Alex Waugh

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Re: Canon's new mirrorless system - announcement on September 4
« Reply #41 on: August 31, 2018, 07:07:01 am »

Courtesy of Nokishita

EOS R body
EOS R 24105 kit
RF 35 mm F 1.8 M IS
RF 50 mm F 1.2 L USM
RF 28 – 70 mm F 2 L USM
RF 24 – 105 mm F4 L USM
M adapter R

Quick thoughts
Must not have IBIS with IS lens designation.
28-70 probably takes advantage of slightly shorter range + small flange distance to not require retrofocal design on wide end.
Fantastic early lineup. Add the new EF 70-200/4 on an adapter and dual slots (if only for peace of mind) for a near complete pro system outside specialty glass.

I don’t actually care about dual slots but apparently the internet does.

Here we go again.
« Last Edit: August 31, 2018, 07:31:29 am by Alex Waugh »
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Paulo Bizarro

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Re: Canon's new mirrorless system - announcement on September 4
« Reply #42 on: August 31, 2018, 07:37:49 am »

Courtesy of Nokishita

EOS R body
EOS R 24105 kit
RF 35 mm F 1.8 M IS
RF 50 mm F 1.2 L USM
RF 28 – 70 mm F 2 L USM
RF 24 – 105 mm F4 L USM
M adapter R

Quick thoughts
Must not have IBIS with IS lens designation.
28-70 probably takes advantage of slightly shorter range + small flange distance to not require retrofocal design on wide end.
Fantastic early lineup. Add the new EF 70-200/4 on an adapter and dual slots (if only for peace of mind) for a near complete pro system outside specialty glass.

I don’t actually care about dual slots but apparently the internet does.

Here we go again.

Looking interesting, and if true, more ambitious than Nikon's initial launch. A few thoughts:

1. I think the "M" designation could mean the lens is EF-M type, with a rear element that would protrude too much. Hence the need for the adapter M > R?

2. There is no adapter apparently from EF > RF. So the mount would be the same for both lens lines? Perhaps a new electronic contact on the RF mount would recognize which lens type is on the camera?

Alex Waugh

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Re: Canon's new mirrorless system - announcement on September 4
« Reply #43 on: August 31, 2018, 07:44:12 am »

Looking interesting, and if true, more ambitious than Nikon's initial launch. A few thoughts:

1. I think the "M" designation could mean the lens is EF-M type, with a rear element that would protrude too much. Hence the need for the adapter M > R?

2. There is no adapter apparently from EF > RF. So the mount would be the same for both lens lines? Perhaps a new electronic contact on the RF mount would recognize which lens type is on the camera?

1. I wondered that but since they've confirmed the launch of a 32mm 1.4 EF-M that would be a bit similar, unless of course this is actually the lens they're getting.

2. I'm perplexed on the mount. Engineering wise I cant see a 28-70/2 coming in at an acceptable size with a 44mm flange distance. On the other hand there would be an EF adapter if it was a new mount.

I just hope the zoom isn't a halo lens like the 58mm Noct. I'd like something useful for work thanks Canon.
« Last Edit: August 31, 2018, 07:48:12 am by Alex Waugh »
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davidgp

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Re: Canon's new mirrorless system - announcement on September 4
« Reply #44 on: August 31, 2018, 07:50:04 am »

Looking interesting, and if true, more ambitious than Nikon's initial launch. A few thoughts:

1. I think the "M" designation could mean the lens is EF-M type, with a rear element that would protrude too much. Hence the need for the adapter M > R?

2. There is no adapter apparently from EF > RF. So the mount would be the same for both lens lines? Perhaps a new electronic contact on the RF mount would recognize which lens type is on the camera?

I highly doubt that the R mount is the same as EF mount... if not Canon will use the same nomenclature (if rumors are true).

Also, if that it is so... the M to R adaptor will need to have a lens elemento on it... I see it unlikely...

But I may be wrong...


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BernardLanguillier

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Re: Canon's new mirrorless system - announcement on September 4
« Reply #45 on: August 31, 2018, 07:51:01 am »

Specs are one small part of the story, what matters is the quality of the lenses.

From a spec standpoint, the 28-70 f2 is the one interesting thing here although if the body doesn’t have IBIS... Still it would open up the enveloppe of shooting for some use cases. Now is f2 more useful for pros using this kens than the most important 4 mm btwn 24mm and 28mm? I am not too sure. There is a reason why all the pro zooms have been going down to 24mm for years.

Then i would depend on the roadmap.

The encouraging thing is that, since it would make no sense to release a 28-70 f2 with a non pro body, we can expect the first body to be the very very best Canon can deliver in mirrorless. That is exciting!

Cheers,
Bernard


« Last Edit: August 31, 2018, 04:39:32 pm by BernardLanguillier »
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Rado

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Re: Canon's new mirrorless system - announcement on September 4
« Reply #46 on: August 31, 2018, 07:51:23 am »

I can't see a 28-70/2 zoom coming in with an acceptable size with any flange distance. Sigma has a 24-35/2 zoom and that thing is already both heavier and longer than the Canon 24-70/2.8 zooms.
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Alex Waugh

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Re: Canon's new mirrorless system - announcement on September 4
« Reply #47 on: August 31, 2018, 07:54:33 am »

I can't see a 28-70/2 zoom coming in with an acceptable size with any flange distance. Sigma has a 24-35/2 zoom and that thing is already both heavier and longer than the Canon 24-70/2.8 zooms.

The hardest thing to manage size wide with these zooms is complex retrofocal designs required on the wide end. A short flange distance and change to 28mm could *perhaps* lead to an acceptably sized design.

As Bernard said, going to have to wait for a spec list before drawing any conclusions. Personally I hope they go for ergonomics, usability and compact lenses over absolute IQ.

I think it will have IBIS.

« Last Edit: August 31, 2018, 08:03:19 am by Alex Waugh »
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mcbroomf

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Re: Canon's new mirrorless system - announcement on September 4
« Reply #48 on: August 31, 2018, 07:57:10 am »

I can't for a moment believe they would release a 24-105 with no stabilization, so this means to me that the source they got this from did not document the lenses correctly (and they likely all have IS), or the camera does have IBIS.  Some Sony (and maybe Nikon?) have dual I think.
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Rory

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Re: Canon's new mirrorless system - announcement on September 4
« Reply #49 on: August 31, 2018, 09:51:18 am »

I can't for a moment believe they would release a 24-105 with no stabilization, so this means to me that the source they got this from did not document the lenses correctly (and they likely all have IS), or the camera does have IBIS.  Some Sony (and maybe Nikon?) have dual I think.

Olympus and Panasonic have combined IBIS and IS for some time now.
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davidgp

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Re: Canon's new mirrorless system - announcement on September 4
« Reply #50 on: August 31, 2018, 10:14:27 am »

The hardest thing to manage size wide with these zooms is complex retrofocal designs required on the wide end. A short flange distance and change to 28mm could *perhaps* lead to an acceptably sized design.

Tamron 28-75 f2.8 for Sony FE is quite small... I remember reading an interview with a Tamron representative that making it 28 instead of 24 make it more easy to create a small lens... that those extra 4 wide mm makes everything more complicated in terms of lens design requiring bigger elements to have a good performance in f2.8



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Paulo Bizarro

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Re: Canon's new mirrorless system - announcement on September 4
« Reply #51 on: August 31, 2018, 10:22:33 am »

Tamron 28-75 f2.8 for Sony FE is quite small... I remember reading an interview with a Tamron representative that making it 28 instead of 24 make it more easy to create a small lens... that those extra 4 wide mm makes everything more complicated in terms of lens design requiring bigger elements to have a good performance in f2.8



http://dgpfotografia.com

Indeed. By going 28mm only, they can perhaps make an f2 zoom the same size as a 24-70 f2.8 zoom?

More info:

https://www.canonrumors.com/heres-the-full-list-of-gear-canon-will-announce-on-september-5/

Canon are also announcing new versions of their EF 400 and 600mm lenses.

shadowblade

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Re: Canon's new mirrorless system - announcement on September 4
« Reply #52 on: August 31, 2018, 10:30:35 am »

Courtesy of Nokishita

EOS R body
EOS R 24105 kit
RF 35 mm F 1.8 M IS
RF 50 mm F 1.2 L USM
RF 28 – 70 mm F 2 L USM
RF 24 – 105 mm F4 L USM
M adapter R


So, the lenses are pretty consistent with what I said earlier about product positioning.

One body, presumably in the 24-30MP range. No matter its other specs, it can compete with Sony and Nikon as an entry-level body based on price (although all three manufacturers could well introduce an even lower-end entry-level body at some stage). If it has dual card slots, decent video output and decent AF (5D4 standard, or even 5D3 standard, not necessarily 1Dx2 standard) it would also be an ideal body for events and weddings, given the right lenses.

Combined with a 24-105/4, it will do well as an all-in-one, general-purpose kit, just like the classic 5D with 24-105 combination.

Combined with a 28-70/2 and you'd have an ideal setup for event photography. Add in a 70-200/2.8 (presumably not far off - this is a priority lens for most manufacturers). Add in one or two fast primes - the 50/1.2 is a good start, and, unlike the Nikon 58/0.95, presumably has full AF capabilities - and you'd have a pretty comprehensive lens setup for wedding photography.

Of course, it all depends on the exact specs of the body - lack of dual slots, crippled video or poor AF would kill the camera for all but entry-level amateur use and make the development of a 28-70/2 questionable as an initial lens, although none of these are particularly onerous requirements.

But, if Canon did their homework right and included all these aspects, plus a few event/people-photography-friendly features such as face detection/eye detection, this looks like a much more serious challenge to Sony than the Z6/Z7, at least until the Nikon lens lineup gets going (by which time the next generation will almost be due). Throw in a good flash system from the start - or full compatibility with the current Speedlite series - and it would be even stronger.
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shadowblade

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Re: Canon's new mirrorless system - announcement on September 4
« Reply #53 on: August 31, 2018, 11:02:18 am »

If these rumors are correct, it causes me to wonder about Canon's strategy... Why go with a single, relatively unambitious body? It isn't especially high resolution, it isn't especially high speed, and it isn't groundbreakingly cheap. Maybe there's something that hasn't appeared in the specs to date - very small? Native EF mount? Unusual image quality in some way? Very high maximum ISO (or very low minimum ISO)?

It doesn't need to be any of them. It's not trying to compete with the D850/A7r3/Z7 for resolution/non-action photography, nor is it trying to compete with the A9/D5/1Dx2 as an action camera. For a general-purpose camera, which this seems to be, the resolution and fps are just about the least important aspects of the body, so long as certain (low) requirements are met. 24-30MP is plenty for this type of body. 10fps is fast enough even for an action/sports body - just not as fast as the latest ones. Even if it had been 24MP/7fps, it would be more than competitive, provided other features were there.

High-ISO performance, dual card slots, AF performance, a solid flash system and a large, fast-clearing buffer will all do much more for the camera than a few extra megapixels or a few extra fps. I doubt it will have a low minimum ISO - this isn't a studio/landscape body and is more likely to be used to shoot candlelit events at night than to make 3m-wide landscape prints demanding the utmost in resolution and dynamic range.

Quote
Assuming that the specs we haven't seen contain no surprises:

The Sony A7III is around the same price, but has a full system behind it - unless it's native EF, the Canon won't at first. (it also has very effective IBIS, which the Canon may or may not) 

Assuming the Canon AF system is in any way competitive - if it's not, it doesn't even meet the first criterion for consideration - the A7III will be its most significant competitor, although the upcoming A7s3 could provide some pressure from the higher end, if it's boosted to 24MP with top-class low-light and video performance. Why would you go for the Canon instead of the Sony? It really depends on the other features. Certainly, the 28-70/2 and 50/1.2 lenses take a lot of pressure off Canon lens-wise, since they cover a large part of what event photographers need; the Nikon Z6 will have no such luxury at launch, which will likely cost it market share. The 24-105/4 will do a similar job for the casual/travel/entry-level photographers, much as it does for Canon's SLR lineup; Nikon's 24-70/4 will almost certainly be optically better, given it's a less ambitious lens design, but, so long as Canon's 24-105 gives credible performance (and the SLR versions are no slouches) the extra range will likely more than make up for the optical performance for these users.

The thing about lenses is that you don't need a huge lineup, either in your own collection or available for your mount. You need lenses which do the jobs you need them for, and no more. By targeting one or two specific market segments at a time (in this case, it appears to be kit-lens-only and event photographers), Canon can make the camera system ready for users within that segment to jump straight in, with all the required gear available early on, moving to the next segment only after the requirements of the first segment have been met; Nikon could also have done this, but doesn't appear to have done so, going instead for a 'something-for-everyone' approach that doesn't fully meet the needs of any one segment and doesn't seem to provide a compelling reason for any particular user to switch.

Apart from lenses, the thing that would help Canon most is a strong flash system - specifically, full compatibility with Canon's current Speedlite system. Sony's flash system is weak. Unlike with flashes, you don't need new motors or hardware to make a flash work properly on a mirrorless camera as opposed to an SLR - all you need is a compatible mount and suitable software/firmware. Canon already has a decent flash system. It makes sense to use it. This would also tie into a focus on event photography (which the 28-70 and moderate body specs would indicate), since such photographers tend to be heavy users of on-camera and portable off-camera flash.

Quote
Older editions of the A7 series are either much cheaper (A7, A7II) or around the same price, but with a much higher resolution sensor with class-leading image quality (A7rII) - possibly at the cost of some video quality and features (we don't know exactly what the Canon has). They also tie in to the full Sony system.

Canon is targeting one or two market segments strongly here, not hit every segment with a body that works out to being average at everything. No doubt they'll release a high-resolution body at some stage - that may be why we haven't seen a 5Ds2 yet. But that's not the market segment which this body is trying to target.

Quote
The Nikon Z6 is about the same price and resolution, significantly faster (unless the Canon's 10 FPS spec is wrong), and has high-grade weather sealing (Sonys don't - we don't know about the Canon).

It also doesn't have a 24-105/4 (or 24-120/4, since that's Nikon's kit lens) for the kit-lens-only photographer, nor does it have anything particularly compelling for the event/wedding photographer. If you were shooting fast action or after ultra-high resolution, you wouldn't be looking at either body anyway.

As for the frame rate, these cameras aren't targeted at wildlife/fast action anyway, and long lenses won't be available for a while (at least as per Nikon's roadmap). Even if they were, and suitable lenses were available, have you ever been in a situation where 10fps wasn't fast enough but 12fps was? No-one ever complained that Nikon's D5 could only make 12fps, while Canon's 1Dx2 could make 16fps. The 1D3 shot at 10fps and the D3 shot at 9fps, so 10fps is more than fast enough for most action.
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shadowblade

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Re: Canon's new mirrorless system - announcement on September 4
« Reply #54 on: August 31, 2018, 11:15:34 am »

I highly doubt that the R mount is the same as EF mount... if not Canon will use the same nomenclature (if rumors are true).

Also, if that it is so... the M to R adaptor will need to have a lens elemento on it... I see it unlikely...

But I may be wrong...


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It doesn't have to be identical. It wouldn't be the first time Canon has made a two-in-one mount - the EF-S mount can take both EF-S and EF lenses. And the large diameter of the EF mount leaves plenty of space for a narrower, shorter-flange mount inside.
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BJL

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Re: Canon's new mirrorless system - R = EF+ EF-M ?
« Reply #55 on: August 31, 2018, 11:36:30 am »

@shadowblade, are you suggesting an arrangement with the 54x44 EF mount, and then inside it the 47x18 EF-M Mount? That might barely work, though some extreme rays passing the EF throat coming into the corners of the frame might be blocked, for a touch of vignetting. Maybe no EF lens actually uses that extreme optical path; it would need to be both faster than f/4 and with a quite high exit pupil. I could compute the f-stop/exit pupil limits if anyone is curious!
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shadowblade

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Re: Canon's new mirrorless system - announcement on September 4
« Reply #56 on: August 31, 2018, 11:37:21 am »

Re: retrofocus designs

These are actually a good thing.

Digital sensors like all the incident light to be coming from the same direction. If the spread is too wide, you can end up with heavy vignetting and colour shifts in the corners, particularly with Bayer arrays, unless you specifically design your microlenses, cover glass and conversion software to compensate for this. Even then, compensation isn't perfect, and designs made to compensate for this don't do nearly as well with normal lenses (since the microlenses don't move to take different lenses into account). It's why Leica M-mount lenses may be great for film, but aren't great on digital.

Retrofocus and image space telecentric designs negate this by making light exiting the back of lens less divergent (or even parallel). They may be larger than simpler designs, but do much more for image quality than simply bridging the flange distance in front of the sensor, particularly for wide-angle lenses. Obviously, including both a zoom group and a retrofocus group results in quite a large lens; however, size has never been an absolute barrier for more specialised lenses (see Nikon 58/0.95, Noctilux lenses or Sigma 105/1.4).

In fact, telecentric lenses even allow for Z-shift focusing without changes to magnification. With Sony's highly accurate sensor movement system (used for pixel shift) this may be the future of lens design. You'd be able to eliminate focusing elements and motors in all lenses, allowing for smaller and sharper designs, with fewer aberrations. And you could make every lens focus just as fast as any other (including specialty lenses such as tilt-shifts) and faster than any lens with moving elements, since moving a sensor is far quicker and more precise than moving heavy glass elements. All it really requires is one extra axis of motion in the IBIS system.
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shadowblade

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Re: Canon's new mirrorless system - R = EF+ EF-M ?
« Reply #57 on: August 31, 2018, 11:41:28 am »

@shadowblade, are you suggesting an arrangement with the 54x44 EF mount, and then inside it the 47x18 EF-M Mount? That might barely work, though some extreme rays passing the EF throat coming into the corners of the frame might be blocked, for a touch of vignetting. Maybe no EF lens actually uses that extreme optical path; it would need to be both faster than f/4 and with a quite high exit pupil. I could compute the f-stop/exit pupil limits if anyone is curious!

I doubt the RF mount is the same as the EF-M mount, otherwise there would be no need for an adapter. It could well be a different mount that still fits inside the EF mount, without causing interference. But, given that there seems to be a M-to-RF adapter but no EF-to-RF adapter, mount compatibility between EF and RF may be a possibility. Either that or the adapter just isn't ready, and will be announced later...
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BJL

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Re: Canon's new mirrorless system - announcement on September 4
« Reply #58 on: August 31, 2018, 11:55:15 am »

1) I missed the M adaptor (surely for EF-M), so maybe R lenses go into something like a 50x18. Then the outer EF option goes away eventually.

2) the desirable Telecentric feature (high exit pupil) can still go with rear elements sitting close to the focal plane; that is how some lenses in compact cameras are.
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shadowblade

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Re: Canon's new mirrorless system - announcement on September 4
« Reply #59 on: August 31, 2018, 12:21:58 pm »

1) I missed the M adaptor (surely for EF-M), so maybe R lenses go into something like a 50x18. Then the outer EF option goes away eventually.

2) the desirable Telecentric feature (high exit pupil) can still go with rear elements sitting close to the focal plane; that is how some lenses in compact cameras are.

The comment was that the short flange distance allows wide-angle lenses to be made without a retrofocus (or telecentric) design to save space. I mentioned why it wasn't a good idea.

You can put the rear element of the lens anywhere. The important thing is that you have a retrofocus or telecentric design, rather than going without it just to save space.
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