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Author Topic: P1 price list... Will they insist on it?  (Read 76939 times)

Christoph B.

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Re: P1 price list... Will they insist on it?
« Reply #120 on: April 12, 2016, 04:40:08 am »

Seven weeks away. (Although I'm not sure which day in June it might be.)

Do people really get themselves in to a situation where they can't cope without a new system for a few weeks?

There is plenty of information about the H6 to help people start the decision making process. As you can see by many of the posts here that is certainly happening.

Your argument seems to be that this shouldn't be happening until June. I disagree. That's all.

In any case you've never laid hands on this camera/back so neither of us knows how well it will perform and what exactly to expect. I know you're pretty fond of the idea of this back and its price but let's try to stay a bit grounded for now, okay?
I'm pretty sure nobody here is going to switch systems because of a video feature that is completely unexplored and may very well be unusable for professional work.
The price isn't a reason for switching systems, as you're going to lose more money by selling your stuff than you'll be saving by buying only slightly cheaper equipment.
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bjanes

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Increasing resolution with available equipment
« Reply #121 on: April 12, 2016, 07:55:05 am »

Multi-shot is great technology and back when I started the difference between multi and single was night and day. These days the difference is subtle and depends a great deal on subject matter. Multi-shot is never going to be mainstream and I cannot see why Phase would want to divert resources to it, even though in the right circumstances it produces stellar results.

I have been following this thread because I like to have some knowledge of what is available at the high end even though MF is not practical for me at the enthusiast rather than pro level. Sometimes the enthusiast would like to increase resolution with available equipment and there are ways to achieve this goal, although with limitations.

John Paul Caponigro discusses some of these options here. Upsampling does not really add resolution, but with proper software such as PhotoZoom Pro, one can make best use of available resolution. One can also use stacking  of multiple images with software such as PhotoAcute. Superresolution is discussed on Wikipedia. With this approach one can gain some of the advantages of multishot technology by taking advantage random shifts resulting from camera motion even with the camera on a tripod. Mirrorless cameras that have a high frame rate can use this technology. While taking photos at our local botanic garden, I encountered a photographer with a Sony mirrorless who claimed good results with this approach.

Cameras offering IBIS (in camera image stabilization) can use multishot technology as discussed here. Finally, one can employ stitching as Bernard L often does.

Bill
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hubell

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Re: P1 price list... Will they insist on it?
« Reply #122 on: April 12, 2016, 08:26:13 am »

The price isn't a reason for switching systems, as you're going to lose more money by selling your stuff than you'll be saving by buying only slightly cheaper equipment.

That's true if you happen to own a Phase/Mamiya body with a bunch of Phase/Mamiya lenses or a Hasselblad H3D,H4D or H5D with a bunch of H lenses. However, there is a large group of users out there who are already invested in MFD who do have the flexibility to make a choice without selling off all of their lenses: those who are using H mount Phase backs with an H body and Hasselblad lenses. The H6D 100 is a pretty compelling option compared to the upgrade price Phase One has offered to owners of Phase One backs against an H mount IQ3 100. I own an IQ 180. I could cross=grade to an H6D 100 for around $11K. An IQ 180 upgrade to an IQ3 100 is $25K. And you get a brand new camera to boot with the H6D option that is fully integrated. No matter what direction I go in, I am very happy to have options. We should all be happy that Hasselblad has jumped back in with what would appear to be great offerings. Real competition in the marketplace is highly desirable.

Theodoros

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Re: P1 price list... Will they insist on it?
« Reply #123 on: April 12, 2016, 09:39:04 am »

Multishot technologie's biggest disadvantage, is a marketing one rather than one of performance. If a pro can't improve further on the results he gets with an old Sinarback 54H + his view camera + a Sinar LC shutter (for dead accurate LV focusing), then why upgrade? It's not a sensible to do so...

Surely one can now "jump" to double the resolution up to 200mp from 88mp that was the limit until the Sinarback eXact was announced, but many pros think of the reduced size of pixel as more of a problem than an advantage they may benefit with and maybe they are correct too in thinking so... 9 μm pixels are 115% larger than 6μm ones and this makes the process easy and accurate even if the environmental circumstances are not ideal. OTOH, Hasselblad's 6x method does oversample as to add rows and columns of pixels, but it makes the quadrupled resolution result almost as easy and accurate as with 4X (but less trustful than 16x - still nothing to compare with single shot though).

Thus, the pros stick with their trustful Imacon 528c, Hasselblad CF-22MS and Sinarback 54H backs, the results they get have nothing to compare with respect to the ultra high res single shot backs, they rarely have to repeat a sequence that failed (because of the high experience they have gained over the years), the backs become rarer with the time to find in the S/H market (although the existing base is extremely wide) and makers have problems to convince the customers as to replace them because the newer offerings can be convincing only as far as the single shot part of the back is concerned...

There are some that think of resolution as the only advantage of the multishot process or others that think that the continuous improvement of single shot will equal the quality, well... let them think so... There are subjects that the difference won't be exposed to the full potential, this is true... but then again there are subjects that the difference between an i-phone and an MFDB won't be exposed to the full potential... As with all technologies the existing difference can only be appreciated to the most demanding of circumstances that do expose the maximum of difference...

In other words... if one thinks that he won't see the difference between a single shot 100mp shot with a Bayer pattern filter and the interpolated colour it is created (along with the shortcomings with the technology) and another (again) single shot capture, but on a 100x75mm sensor with true colour pixels of 9μm of size each (i.e. pixels that record colour - like foveon) and no interpolation or any artefacts involved... then I'm an astronaut... There is a tendency from marketing  (inc.Hasselblad) to hide the benefits of true colour capturing and direct the marketing towards single shot capturing systems, this policy is enforced by the circumstances because, as I said before, multishot users are very slow to upgrade on modern equipment thus causing loss of sales, but truth is truth and marketing is marketing.

That said, I feel there is a real danger for MF future penetration in the studios that specialize with still life photography... What if Sony (or another maker) decides (which is very possible to happen) to introduce a multishot version of the mirrorles α7 camera? Which pro will be naive enough then as not to use a (multishot) a7 on the rear standard of his view camera, add a shutter and great LV and in addition have the image circle of his lenses widen considerably? Only the multishot back users will then retain their backs, but I'm sure that even them will add the mirrorless to have as a back up or for the projects that the MFDB will be an overkill...  ;)
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Christoph B.

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Re: P1 price list... Will they insist on it?
« Reply #124 on: April 12, 2016, 10:35:29 am »

That's true if you happen to own a Phase/Mamiya body with a bunch of Phase/Mamiya lenses or a Hasselblad H3D,H4D or H5D with a bunch of H lenses. However, there is a large group of users out there who are already invested in MFD who do have the flexibility to make a choice without selling off all of their lenses: those who are using H mount Phase backs with an H body and Hasselblad lenses. The H6D 100 is a pretty compelling option compared to the upgrade price Phase One has offered to owners of Phase One backs against an H mount IQ3 100. I own an IQ 180. I could cross=grade to an H6D 100 for around $11K. An IQ 180 upgrade to an IQ3 100 is $25K. And you get a brand new camera to boot with the H6D option that is fully integrated. No matter what direction I go in, I am very happy to have options. We should all be happy that Hasselblad has jumped back in with what would appear to be great offerings. Real competition in the marketplace is highly desirable.

But then you're not switching systems after all.
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Theodoros

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Re: P1 price list... Will they insist on it?
« Reply #125 on: April 12, 2016, 11:42:42 am »

But then you're not switching systems after all.

The past decision of Hasselblad to stop the production of the (stand alone) CF backs with interchangeable adapting plates, was the most disastrous one (marketing wise) they ever made... The backs had very low production cost as they where a parallel version of the ones already produced with the "complete" camera systems of the H3/H3II/H4 series... By stopping the CF backs, Hasselblad didn't only left P1/Leaf group to dominate the market for those customers that wanted to upgrade the back of their camera only, but they left the H2F, H4X & (now) H5X ...to stand as "orphans" in the market with no offering from the firm for an MFDB... It is surprising that this insane marketing decision (which along with the closed system proposals & the rebranded Sony offerings almost destroyed the company) lasts until today...

Hasselblad has to re-introduce the CF backs for third party cameras as soon as possible based on their newly introduced backs... There is absolutely no reason what so ever on to why they sell the CFV-50c for Hasselblad V mount only, while they could have many more backs sold if the same back was offered for Contax 645, Mamyia 645, Rollei HY-6, Rollei 6xxx and other cameras too... There is no reason what so ever either, on why one can't have an alternative offering to the H5-50c by using the H5X platform and a version for H mount of the CFV-50c back... It is expected to happen, but the sooner Hasselblad will offer the new series of Cmos backs (the multishot versions too please) as CF backs too, the sooner the MF market will regain its past glory...

I can't stop thinking how many customers they are loosing out of the hundrents of the better wedding photographers that are primarily using the Contax 645 system as platform... If they had an offering of  the CFV-50 back for Contax 645 mount (especially at the price that it costs), I'm sure they would find it hard to keep with demand... Same would happen if they also offer the 100mp back to the same people... especially if they include a mode that would bin the pixels in fours for 25mp captures at the full 53.4 x 40mm area...
« Last Edit: April 12, 2016, 11:45:59 am by Theodoros »
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hcubell

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Re: P1 price list... Will they insist on it?
« Reply #126 on: April 12, 2016, 11:47:40 am »

But then you're not switching systems after all.

Sure I am if I were to opt for an H6D. Different back, different body, different software to process files compared to an IQ 180 on the H2.
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Christoph B.

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Re: P1 price list... Will they insist on it?
« Reply #127 on: April 12, 2016, 12:30:44 pm »

Sure I am if I were to opt for an H6D. Different back, different body, different software to process files compared to an IQ 180 on the H2.

Compatible body, compatible lenses,... only thing you're changing is the software.
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Theodoros

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Re: P1 price list... Will they insist on it?
« Reply #128 on: April 12, 2016, 01:02:55 pm »

Compatible body, compatible lenses,... only thing you're changing is the software.

Exactly what caused the (nearly) disaster for Hasselblad and may cause another one with Phase now... Changing only the parts that one feels that should be changed and keeping the parts that work for you is the common sense for photographers to do. The fault with Hasselblad was that one couldn't upgrade (or share) the back with the H3/H3II/H4... The fault with Phase now is that one who has invested on a P/P+ back can't upgrade his body.... All that for no reason and with "cheap" excuses used against the protestors of the policies... A photographer knows better what his needs are than any maker will ever do... "I KNOW BETTER THAN YOU WHAT YOU NEED" is a cheap excuse... not an answer!

Could Hasselblad have kept the H3/H3II/H4 cameras and offer dual interface with them so that third party and CF backs would be compatible? Of course they could! ...it would cost them nothing to do so!
Could Phase One have included dual interface in the XF body so that P/P+ series and third party backs would be compatible and one could only upgrade on the body? Of course they could!

Why makers take their own eyes off is still a mystery to me!  Do they think that some fanboys are enough to keep the business running? Past history has proved the opposite and future is near to confirm the past....
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Christoph B.

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Re: P1 price list... Will they insist on it?
« Reply #129 on: April 12, 2016, 03:39:36 pm »

Well I think after 7 years it's fair to move on and introduce a new line of products and if you want to introduce new features and make changes to the connection and the underlying firmware, that could cause problems with older products or maybe it would take an extra effort to support older backs and ensure compatibility, then I understand the decision of not including them.

The P/P+ backs are still amazing and deliver great quality that is on par with modern backs on low ISO settings. But they _are_old_. You should not forget the fact that there have been three camera bodies by PhaseOne alone that support the P/P+ backs and that's quite a lot (AF, DF, DF+) and then there are even more by Mamiya that also work with these backs. Keep in mind that we're not shooting with film any more where all backs are 'equal' and mainly mechanical and so only mechanical differences could matter. In the digital age everything evolves extremely fast including interfaces.

Think of it this way: between 2009 and 2016 there have been dozens of new CPU designs with numerous interfaces. Are they compatible? No. Would you want them to be? Maybe. It would certainly be convenient but they would not be as fast as they are and progress would be slow. Same goes for graphics cards, memory - or SSDs. Just compare current SSDs with modern interfaces to 2009 HDDs with their 3Gb/s sATA connection and you'll know what I'm talking about. Yes, they are somewhat backwards compatible but only because their basic job of only transmitting data has not changed a lot.
But in our case the features of the backs have expanded, so the interface and protocols have to expand likewise; liveview, focus stacking, battery sharing, better and more detailed communication between the back and the camera and the lens etc - all that demands more bandwidth and the old backs simply were not made for those things.

In any case the P/P+ backs are not abandoned, they are still serviced and the DF+ cameras are still available and they're working really well with those backs.

I think I already mentioned it somewhere else: Nobody owes you anything. PhaseOne does not owe your a compatible camerabody 7 or 8 years after your purchase - though if I remember correctly you own a 45+ and that was released in 2007. So actually your back was compatible with the lastest cameras for nearly 9 years. That's a lot and more than enough.
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Christopher

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Re: P1 price list... Will they insist on it?
« Reply #130 on: April 12, 2016, 03:57:59 pm »

Isn't the h6d s completely closed new system?

What I heard, please don't take it for granted, is that there won't be any h6dx or similar.

Will the new back work on the h5/4 ? Will any other backs than the h6 work on the new camera ?


Christopher Hauser
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eronald

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Re: P1 price list... Will they insist on it?
« Reply #131 on: April 12, 2016, 04:43:47 pm »

So I held one of the new systems in my sweaty little hands today.

The style is nice. Really nice.

The shutter button really is gold rather than Agfa orange.

I miss the hard positive on/off switch of my Canon.

I'd say the whole package feels less "solid" than the XF but way more ergonomic.

It would seem that deliveries at least for the 50 are going to be fairly immediate; however we are also going to see a lot of firmware releases.
The 100 doesn't seem to be fully ready for customer release yet.


Edmund
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Theodoros

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Re: P1 price list... Will they insist on it?
« Reply #132 on: April 12, 2016, 04:52:25 pm »

Isn't the h6d s completely closed new system?

What I heard, please don't take it for granted, is that there won't be any h6dx or similar.

Will the new back work on the h5/4 ? Will any other backs than the h6 work on the new camera ?


Christopher Hauser
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The H6D works with film backs, this should mean that the backs are compatible with the H5X... I guess that an H6X is also coming, but usually Hassy releases the X version after they first introduce the complete camera systems. That said, I would expect an H5-100 too as to replace the H5-60 which now looks a bit out of date. Of course, if they move to introduce an H6X, I would expect them not to continue making the H-5X...
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Christopher

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Re: P1 price list... Will they insist on it?
« Reply #133 on: April 12, 2016, 05:06:20 pm »

So just to get a few thinks in my head straight.

-->a phase back will work on a h5x

-->a phase back will not work on the h6d / or might ?

--> what about "older" h5 backs? They will not work on the h6d? Or the other way around the new/updated lenses won't work on a h5d/x ?

I'm so not want to start any discussion again, just under stand what does and doesn't work. As I want to get a feeling of what upgrade ideas might be possible.


Christopher Hauser
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Theodoros

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Re: P1 price list... Will they insist on it?
« Reply #134 on: April 12, 2016, 05:41:19 pm »

So just to get a few thinks in my head straight.

-->a phase back will work on a h5x

-->a phase back will not work on the h6d / or might ?

--> what about "older" h5 backs? They will not work on the h6d? Or the other way around the new/updated lenses won't work on a h5d/x ?

I'm so not want to start any discussion again, just under stand what does and doesn't work. As I want to get a feeling of what upgrade ideas might be possible.


Christopher Hauser
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I'm pretty sure that the new policy of Hasselblad is that complete camera systems work with their own back only, one can't swap backs between bodies of the same family (i.e. use the 50 back on the 100 camera and vice versa) but there is an additional "X" version of body that can be used as a back up for H5 and later cameras and will work with all backs (Hassy or third party) that can be used on the H1, H2, H2F, H4X... The only (new) body currently that can take a P1 back is the H5x... if there is an H6X coming, the backs that can work on H5X (or on the other H previously mentioned) will work on the H6X too...  Obviously the complete camera systems have dedicated firmware as to maximise the result for each different H lens with the specific back, but the "X" version has adaptable firmware which is automatically activated (or not) for each different back.
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Joe Towner

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Re: P1 price list... Will they insist on it?
« Reply #135 on: April 12, 2016, 09:03:01 pm »

There was a time you could get a H5 kit (back and body) and upgrade to the H5x body.  I loved the options this opened up (film, Phase, even old fat pixel backs), and I hope they drop the 'x' and just do all bodies that way.

-Joe
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landscapephoto

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Re: P1 price list... Will they insist on it?
« Reply #136 on: April 13, 2016, 01:42:52 am »

-->a phase back will work on a h5x

Yes. It is official.

Quote
-->a phase back will not work on the h6d / or might ?

Might. It is not official. The only thing which is official is that the H6D will accept film backs.

Quote
--> what about "older" h5 backs? They will not work on the h6d? Or the other way around the new/updated lenses won't work on a h5d/x ?


Lenses will certainly work. Backs will probably work, you'll have to try. I have tried to use an older H3D backs on my H4D and even if it should not officially work in practice it does. I suppose that such mixing is also possible between other series. One word of caution, however: I do not think that the H5D and H6D backs will work on H4D or H3D cameras, the latter backs need more power than the earlier ones.
« Last Edit: April 13, 2016, 02:45:17 am by landscapephoto »
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Chris Livsey

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Re: P1 price list... Will they insist on it?
« Reply #137 on: April 13, 2016, 02:42:33 am »

One word of caution, however: the H5D and H6D backs will not work on H4D or H3D cameras, the latter backs need more power than the earlier ones.

True? The H4D, H3D and even my lowly H1 will accept the higher power battery grip with current firmware, is there another factor at play?
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landscapephoto

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Re: P1 price list... Will they insist on it?
« Reply #138 on: April 13, 2016, 02:46:29 am »

True? The H4D, H3D and even my lowly H1 will accept the higher power battery grip with current firmware, is there another factor at play?

Well: I don't think it will work, because the electronics in the camera are not designed for the higher power consumption, but I have not tried. I edited my message accordingly.
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Chris Livsey

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Re: P1 price list... Will they insist on it?
« Reply #139 on: April 13, 2016, 01:26:31 pm »

Well: I don't think it will work, because the electronics in the camera are not designed for the higher power consumption, but I have not tried. I edited my message accordingly.

Perhaps someone can contribute the definitive answer.
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