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Author Topic: P1 price list... Will they insist on it?  (Read 59461 times)

Theodoros

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P1 price list... Will they insist on it?
« on: April 07, 2016, 06:00:32 pm »


I don't see how they can after H6D announcement... they ask for 50% more for a back only (compared to Hassy's complete camera offering) with no video....

What effect a (significant) price drop would have on their recent customers (no matter how few they are)?
How would it affect refurbished & S/H equipment pricing?
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eronald

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Re: P1 price list... Will they insist on it?
« Reply #1 on: April 07, 2016, 06:23:20 pm »

I don't think pricing is really something P1 care about. Let me give you an example: You are a nice young man, with an art history degree, good family connections, and some experience of photography, and a friend recommends you for a job overseeing photography of art objects at a major cultural institution. Now some cameras need to be acquired. Do you want the "best" and cheapest camera, or do you want the one which comes with the most comprehensive training courses from someone versed in cultural object reproduction, a product whose reps are always on call, and if necessary even come to your office to solve problems and help you and your staff in your new and very very complex job?


Edmund


I don't see how they can after H6D announcement... they ask for 50% more for a back only (compared to Hassy's complete camera offering) with no video....

What effect a (significant) price drop would have on their recent customers (no matter how few they are)?
How would it affect refurbished & S/H equipment pricing?
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Paul2660

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Re: P1 price list... Will they insist on it?
« Reply #2 on: April 07, 2016, 06:24:39 pm »

More than likely it will have no effect. 

P1 is strong in Asia, and other non European/US countries.  You might see a Credo 100, soon, for less, but it will still be more than the Hasselblad 100MP. 

The video issue is not a big deal to me, as I don't see either platform ideal for a video shooter, and 4K can be had for a lot less than the Hasselblad offering.  Soon the Canon 1dx MKII is shipping with 4K, sure it's not 100MP, but for video unless you want high end stills from the video 20MP is good.  Plus Canon has a much more user friendly lineup for video shooters. 

The main thing you hear from Video shooters, (at least the ones I know) is the LCD needs to move, not the need for 100MP for video. 

Sooner than later Sony will have their own 50MP MF camera out there, and Fuji may also, so I agree the price pressure will continue for the 50MP point. 

For the 1st time buyer the cost to get into a new 100MP P1 back is a lot more than Hasselblad (I totally agree and I would hate to considering that purchase), but for the current P1 users, of IQ1,2, backs, the cost is very reasonable (when you factor in the 5 year value add which is included).  The photographers who made the leap to the IQ180 from the P65+ for 14K, years ago, now still have a very aggressive price point to get to the 100MP back from P1.  So on that side Phase to me is very aggressive and has continued that for sometime now.

Hasselblad has a great new camera and back, and I am hoping to see a comparison soon between the 2 backs.  It doesn't seem that Hasselblad has upgraded the optics, only the shutter, (I may have that wrong), but they have some very good glass on the market. 
I totally applaud their decision to have 2 card slots (P1 missed that totally), and they have added a state of the art LCD, and you can capture Video with sound (P1 allows video capture, just no sound).  But I am also surprised that Hasselblad did not allow for the back to be powered on a tech camera at announce.  I am sure that will come sometime in the future.

The key to P1 purchase is your dealer and if you are not getting good support 100% of the time, not only for new purchases, but for your entire P1 portfolio, then something is wrong and you did pay too much. 

Paul C
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Theodoros

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Re: P1 price list... Will they insist on it?
« Reply #3 on: April 07, 2016, 06:31:03 pm »

I don't think pricing is really something P1 care about. Let me give you an example: You are a nice young man, with some experience of photography, and a friend recommends you for a job as a photographer at a major cultural institution. Now some cameras need to be acquired. Do you want the "best" and cheapest camera, or do you want the one which comes with the most comprehensive training courses from someone versed in cultural object reproduction, a product whose reps are always on call, and if necessary even come to your office to solve problems and help you do your new and very very complex job?

Edmund

 On a major cultural institution I want what I have... My Sinarback 54H & my CF-39MS along with my Zeiss micro APO 120mm f4... Nothing out of P1 would make the institution people jump (or even come close to) on the results I deliver them with what I have....
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eronald

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Re: P1 price list... Will they insist on it?
« Reply #4 on: April 07, 2016, 06:36:38 pm »


The main thing you hear from Video shooters, (at least the ones I know) is the LCD needs to move, not the need for 100MP for video. 

Paul C

Canon rep told me the rental houses hate movable screens because they break, and this is why the *pro* Canon still cameras don't have them while the consumer models do.

However, anyway in this weight class you won't handhold, and in a static setup you just plug in an external mini HDMI screen/recorder.  Also I'm willing to bet that Hassy have superb video tethering to any tablet running Phocus, with touch focus control, and a very good iPad app.

Edmund
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Paul2660

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Re: P1 price list... Will they insist on it?
« Reply #5 on: April 07, 2016, 06:44:59 pm »

Canon rep told me the rental houses hate movable screens because they break, and this is why the *pro* Canon still cameras don't have them while the consumer models do.

However, anyway in this weight class you won't handhold, and in a static setup you just plug in an external mini HDMI screen/recorder.  Also I'm willing to bet that Hassy have superb video tethering to any tablet running Phocus, with touch focus control, and a very good iPad app.

Edmund

rental houses may love it, but the actual videograhers hate it.  Typical.

Paul C
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Theodoros

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Re: P1 price list... Will they insist on it?
« Reply #6 on: April 07, 2016, 06:51:33 pm »

Canon rep told me the rental houses hate movable screens because they break, and this is why the *pro* Canon still cameras don't have them while the consumer models do.

However, anyway in this weight class you won't handhold, and in a static setup you just plug in an external mini HDMI screen/recorder.  Also I'm willing to bet that Hassy have superb video tethering to any tablet running Phocus, with touch focus control, and a very good iPad app.

Edmund

If you remember... (I bet you do) I have foreseen that Hasselblad would enter Video repro at Hi-end level... It was obvious after the contract with Arri and the alignment with DJI... I've also foreseen that they will catch the competition (in the market) with their pants down...

It was last September when the (usual) trolls where posting "P1 buying Hassy"... and I was replying: "who is P1 to buy ...Hassy?" ...the opposite is more likely (but not to the interest -I guess- from Hassy's side....)   ;)  ;D
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Theodoros

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Re: P1 price list... Will they insist on it?
« Reply #7 on: April 07, 2016, 07:07:14 pm »


I guess the later H6D entries from Hassy, are keeping an eye more towards Leica's S 007 than looking to P1 at all... I don't think that in Hasselblad they consider P1 to be a competitor anymore... especially after P1's recent marketing mistakes to abandon all their market base but the IQ users (on which they can't justify the money they have invested)... I guess P1 is in very serious marketing trouble having fall in their.... own trap!
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eronald

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Re: P1 price list... Will they insist on it?
« Reply #8 on: April 07, 2016, 07:26:16 pm »

rental houses may love it, but the actual videograhers hate it.  Typical.

Paul

And it assists segmentation, making everybody buy both still and video units.

The "obvious" tech solution would be a detachable user-interchangeable touch display that you just swap out and reconnect if you break. Treat it like a $1K eyecup :)
Actually a foldable display would also have some advantage in allowing heat dissipation.

Edmund
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Paul2660

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Re: P1 price list... Will they insist on it?
« Reply #9 on: April 07, 2016, 07:28:05 pm »

And it assists segmentation, making everybody buy both still and video units.

The "obvious" tech solution would be a detachable user-interchangeable touch display that you just swap out and reconnect if you break.

Edmund

That is a great idea, actually.  I wish Nikon and Canon both would consider. 

Paul C
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eronald

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Re: P1 price list... Will they insist on it?
« Reply #10 on: April 07, 2016, 07:31:28 pm »

That is a great idea, actually.  I wish Nikon and Canon both would consider. 

Paul C

Not least as it would give them a nice steady market in replacing broken displays if they make them sufficiently frangible  :)

Edmund
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Paul2660

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Re: P1 price list... Will they insist on it?
« Reply #11 on: April 07, 2016, 07:31:42 pm »

I guess the later H6D entries from Hassy, are keeping an eye more towards Leica's S 007 than looking to P1 at all... I don't think that in Hasselblad they consider P1 to be a competitor anymore... especially after P1's recent marketing mistakes to abandon all their market base but the IQ users (on which they can't justify the money they have invested)... I guess P1 is in very serious marketing trouble having fall in their.... own trap!

Please, stop, Phase made a call, just like Hasselblad just did, (I think).  Will this new 100c run on anything but the H6D?  Kinda the same thing.  For now it can't even run stand alone if I understand it correctly, so no tech camera use for now unless you tether, which ain't that great. And isn't it still firewire for power when tethered?  USB 3.1 is needed to charge, the P1 100 has that so they did not miss everything.  Life is short, man way too short. 

Paul C
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eronald

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Re: P1 price list... Will they insist on it?
« Reply #12 on: April 07, 2016, 07:57:58 pm »

The interesting question is whether you can stick any old Phase or H back on the new H6D body.
We shouldn't forget that all the H shooters with ancient P+ backs may suddenly have got themselves a flash sync and focus system upgrade.
I mean, if your P65+ makes you happy, your workflow with C1 is locked down, the color is perfect, why not just go on using it?

Edmund

Please, stop, Phase made a call, just like Hasselblad just did, (I think).  Will this new 100c run on anything but the H6D?  Kinda the same thing.  For now it can't even run stand alone if I understand it correctly, so no tech camera use for now unless you tether, which ain't that great. And isn't it still firewire for power when tethered?  USB 3.1 is needed to charge, the P1 100 has that so they did not miss everything.  Life is short, man way too short. 

Paul C
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Theodoros

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Re: P1 price list... Will they insist on it?
« Reply #13 on: April 07, 2016, 07:59:45 pm »

Please, stop, Phase made a call, just like Hasselblad just did, (I think).  Will this new 100c run on anything but the H6D?  Kinda the same thing.  For now it can't even run stand alone if I understand it correctly, so no tech camera use for now unless you tether, which ain't that great. And isn't it still firewire for power when tethered?  USB 3.1 is needed to charge, the P1 100 has that so they did not miss everything.  Life is short, man way too short. 

Paul C

I guess you haven't noticed that the comment you replied on and the O/P as well is about ...pricing! Why you post irrelevant is still a mystery to me...
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Theodoros

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Re: P1 price list... Will they insist on it?
« Reply #14 on: April 07, 2016, 08:10:20 pm »

The interesting question is whether you can stick any old Phase or H back on the new H6D body.
We shouldn't forget that all the H shooters with ancient P+ backs may suddenly have got themselves a flash sync and focus system upgrade.
I mean, if your P65+ makes you happy, your workflow with C1 is locked down, the color is perfect, why not just go on using it?

Edmund

Yep! ...actually I made a specific thread for the matter... Sadly people are more interested on gear wars than if things work for them... http://forum.luminous-landscape.com/index.php?topic=109754.0 If Hasselblad has decided (correctly) that they have to be an "open" system, they better inform the rest of us on the matter... Clearly P1 has decided on the opposite...
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Paul2660

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Re: P1 price list... Will they insist on it?
« Reply #15 on: April 07, 2016, 08:34:41 pm »

I guess you haven't noticed that the comment you replied on and the O/P as well is about ...pricing! Why you post irrelevant is still a mystery to me...

Irrelevant, yes I agree, but I responded to your poke to P1 sorry. 

Old news.

Paul C
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Theodoros

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Re: P1 price list... Will they insist on it?
« Reply #16 on: April 07, 2016, 08:48:14 pm »

Irrelevant, yes I agree, but I responded to your poke to P1 sorry. 

Old news.

Paul C

No poke to P1... only on their insane pricing policy... (which will kill them (IMO) if they keep it up). It's strange with forums... One says that a firm is pricing their products insanely and thus is tearing their own eyes off... then funboys (not you) jump from nowhere claiming that one is "basing" the company... No basing I assure you... It's only that their pricing policy & marketing is addressing to fools...
Who is P1 (a new comer to photographic history) to price products that are no better to competition at insane prices after all?

EDIT: It reminds me of the DE LOREAN plan.... "much of nonsense addressing to those that can pay"... At least with tradition in photography, buying a nice product (Leica, Hassy, Rollei, Contax) did offer (traditionally) a quality advantage....
« Last Edit: April 07, 2016, 08:59:01 pm by Theodoros »
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JoeKitchen

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Re: P1 price list... Will they insist on it?
« Reply #17 on: April 07, 2016, 09:45:27 pm »


EDIT: It reminds me of the DE LOREAN plan.... "much of nonsense addressing to those that can pay"... At least with tradition in photography, buying a nice product (Leica, Hassy, Rollei, Contax) did offer (traditionally) a quality advantage....

Although I do see your argument, to a degree, I do not think the De Lorean is a good comparison.  De Lorean's business was brought down because one of his partners was guilty of drug trafficking.  Of course, De Lorean had no part of it, or even knew about it, but by the time that came to light the PR damage was already down, and that is what really killed the company. 

There are many that feel if that did not happen, De Lorean would have done well. 

I think his story, and to a part P1's story, is very similar to Tesla.  Tesla does very well as the leader in electric cars.  If you think about it, it does not make any sense since Tesla does not own any patents or intellectual property that puts it above competitors. 

But they were first, and that is all the difference some times! 

Read the "Art of War."
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eronald

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Re: P1 price list... Will they insist on it?
« Reply #18 on: April 07, 2016, 10:14:12 pm »

I disagree about Tesla in the sense that there was an Omerta' that prevented all major cars manufacturers from doing serious work on electric cars.  It was an open secret in the engineering community that electric cars could be built, and battery technology would improve from year to year as soon as research money poured in. Tesla had the smarts to see that the Omerta' could be broken, that it would break due to a environmental constraints, and that a major new manufacturer could appear. 

Edmund

Although I do see your argument, to a degree, I do not think the De Lorean is a good comparison.  De Lorean's business was brought down because one of his partners was guilty of drug trafficking.  Of course, De Lorean had no part of it, or even knew about it, but by the time that came to light the PR damage was already down, and that is what really killed the company. 

There are many that feel if that did not happen, De Lorean would have done well. 

I think his story, and to a part P1's story, is very similar to Tesla.  Tesla does very well as the leader in electric cars.  If you think about it, it does not make any sense since Tesla does not own any patents or intellectual property that puts it above competitors. 

But they were first, and that is all the difference some times! 

Read the "Art of War."
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Christopher

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Re: P1 price list... Will they insist on it?
« Reply #19 on: April 08, 2016, 01:23:42 am »

I really don't get it. The H6d without a Lens is 29k in Germany let's say 27k the Phase XF is around 37 k WITH a new BR none 80 lens. or 34k with the 80mm lens.

Honestly I don't get you all. I though we are talking about using the cameras for making money. If you really have trouble financing the difference perhaps you should reconsider the whole price as well and go with something significant cheaper. Because if not everything is going according to your plan even 27k can drew you.

I really don't see a huge difference with the 100MP backs. Either ones business can afford it or not. No reason to bitch about it.

Edit: on a site note. This will be the same when Pentax comes out with a 100Mp camera for 15k.


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