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Author Topic: P1 price list... Will they insist on it?  (Read 59457 times)

ErikKaffehr

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Re: P1 price list... Will they insist on it?
« Reply #20 on: April 08, 2016, 01:31:14 am »

Hi,

I would say that for 4K you need a sensor optimised for 4K with proper anti aliasing filtering for 4K. Film makers are more concerned about aliasing than still photographers.

Having good video is definitively an advantage with any camera, but for great video I guess you need a camera made for it.

Best regards
Erik


The video issue is not a big deal to me, as I don't see either platform ideal for a video shooter, and 4K can be had for a lot less than the Hasselblad offering.  Soon the Canon 1dx MKII is shipping with 4K, sure it's not 100MP, but for video unless you want high end stills from the video 20MP is good.  Plus Canon has a much more user friendly lineup for video shooters. 

Paul C
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Chris Livsey

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Re: P1 price list... Will they insist on it?
« Reply #21 on: April 08, 2016, 04:58:57 am »

Although I do see your argument, to a degree, I do not think the De Lorean is a good comparison.  De Lorean's business was brought down because one of his partners was guilty of drug trafficking.  Of course, De Lorean had no part of it, or even knew about it, but by the time that came to light the PR damage was already down, and that is what really killed the company. 

Without wishing to sidetrack too far although the arrest of De Lorean was a trigger to failure, one the UK Government was quick to seize on, the real causes were that: the car was over priced, had poor, very poor, build quality and low power output after several engine options were tried, the rotary being dropped first for a Ford V6 and ultimately for a Peugeot V6 with 140 horsepower, 130 for the US market, all needing body redesign, Colin Chapman from Lotus did a lot of that work but couldn't get more power, not in his brief. Be in no doubt, after a BBC program interviewing the workforce who actually built the car, it was build quality that failed, totally. Almost all the cars built were re-built by small skilled teams after the production line, even the price couldn't recoup production costs despite the heavy Government subsidy to employ staff made in the hope of reducing unemployment and civil unrest in Northern Ireland but this had weak official monitoring of an initial master agreement that heavily favoured De Lorean at the expense of the taxpayer. The contract enabled him to hire ever more workers, unskilled and poorly trained, despite the growing commercial realisation that the project was never going to succeed.

DeLorean is a poor comparison indeed, none of the camera makers can be accused of allowing such poor quality products to reach the market.
« Last Edit: April 08, 2016, 05:02:21 am by Chris Livsey »
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synn

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Re: P1 price list... Will they insist on it?
« Reply #22 on: April 08, 2016, 05:44:15 am »

I really don't get it. The H6d without a Lens is 29k in Germany let's say 27k the Phase XF is around 37 k WITH a new BR none 80 lens. or 34k with the 80mm lens.

Honestly I don't get you all. I though we are talking about using the cameras for making money. If you really have trouble financing the difference perhaps you should reconsider the whole price as well and go with something significant cheaper. Because if not everything is going according to your plan even 27k can drew you.

I really don't see a huge difference with the 100MP backs. Either ones business can afford it or not. No reason to bitch about it.

Edit: on a site note. This will be the same when Pentax comes out with a 100Mp camera for 15k.


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genau.
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Bo Dez

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Re: P1 price list... Will they insist on it?
« Reply #23 on: April 08, 2016, 06:04:06 am »

I think there will be a long term effect but I can't be certain to say there will be an immediate effect.

For me, the Hasselblad is the better deal, not just in pricing, and this is certainly a shot fired across the bow of Phase One and some much need invigorating and re-energising of the market.

It will certainly be very interesting to see how the rest of the industry reacts and reshuffles its self, with the 135 formats too.
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Theodoros

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Re: P1 price list... Will they insist on it?
« Reply #24 on: April 08, 2016, 07:14:53 am »

Without wishing to sidetrack too far although the arrest of De Lorean was a trigger to failure, one the UK Government was quick to seize on, the real causes were that: the car was over priced, had poor, very poor, build quality and low power output after several engine options were tried, the rotary being dropped first for a Ford V6 and ultimately for a Peugeot V6 with 140 horsepower, 130 for the US market, all needing body redesign, Colin Chapman from Lotus did a lot of that work but couldn't get more power, not in his brief. Be in no doubt, after a BBC program interviewing the workforce who actually built the car, it was build quality that failed, totally. Almost all the cars built were re-built by small skilled teams after the production line, even the price couldn't recoup production costs despite the heavy Government subsidy to employ staff made in the hope of reducing unemployment and civil unrest in Northern Ireland but this had weak official monitoring of an initial master agreement that heavily favoured De Lorean at the expense of the taxpayer. The contract enabled him to hire ever more workers, unskilled and poorly trained, despite the growing commercial realisation that the project was never going to succeed.

DeLorean is a poor comparison indeed, none of the camera makers can be accused of allowing such poor quality products to reach the market.

I mentioned the De Lorean purely because of the marketing approach behind it, the build quality or the rest of the issues was not in my mind at all... The DeLorean was meant to be an expensive product that had nothing to offer with respect to competition at the asking price...  The XF doesn't do multishot, doesn't take film, doesn't work with older backs, doesn't do video and asks for more money than competition... To the contradict, Hasselblad offers all the above at a significantly lesser price... The compatibility of the H6D backs with the H5X is IMO a crucial factor for the level of (the marketing) appreciation  of the H6D among pros and advanced photographers... I do suspect that the H6D backs are compatible with the H5X... It remains to be officially confirmed by Hasselblad though...
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synn

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Re: P1 price list... Will they insist on it?
« Reply #25 on: April 08, 2016, 07:59:20 am »

If I had the time and inclination, I would aggregate all the "Camera X is released, P1 is doomed with their current prices" threads in this forum over the past 10 years or so.

However, I have far more productive things to do with my time. Carry on.
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uaiomex

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Re: P1 price list... Will they insist on it?
« Reply #26 on: April 08, 2016, 08:51:59 am »

I would never say that with this HS anouncement P1 was doomed but I'm sure somewhere in Denmark the land moved.

If I had the time and inclination, I would aggregate all the "Camera X is released, P1 is doomed with their current prices" threads in this forum over the past 10 years or so.

However, I have far more productive things to do with my time. Carry on.
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Ken Doo

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Re: P1 price list... Will they insist on it?
« Reply #27 on: April 08, 2016, 09:01:42 am »

genau.
 +1

+1.

Those bitchin' aren't going to buy a Phase One camera system anyway.  And most likely never will.  Hell, they'll probably not buy the Hassey system either.  Maybe if Bernie wins, he'll give them away... ;D :o

eronald

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Re: P1 price list... Will they insist on it?
« Reply #28 on: April 08, 2016, 09:48:45 am »

+1.

Those bitchin' aren't going to buy a Phase One camera system anyway.  And most likely never will.  Hell, they'll probably not buy the Hassey system either.  Maybe if Bernie wins, he'll give them away... ;D :o

an h3d31 now retails at 1500. maybe we dont need Bernie, just Father Time.
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Ken Doo

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Re: P1 price list... Will they insist on it?
« Reply #29 on: April 08, 2016, 10:52:10 am »

an h3d31 now retails at 1500. maybe we dont need Bernie, just Father Time.

As long as it works for you----go for it! 

landscapephoto

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Re: P1 price list... Will they insist on it?
« Reply #30 on: April 08, 2016, 10:53:13 am »

I really don't get it. The H6d without a Lens is 29k in Germany let's say 27k the Phase XF is around 37 k WITH a new BR none 80 lens. or 34k with the 80mm lens.

I checked on the German site of calumet. Including VAT, they sell the H6D-100 for 34391,00 (no lens) and the XF, and IQ3-100 and Schneider 80mm for 46398,10. The Schneider 80mm sells for 2963,10 , hence the P1 camera without lens would be 46395,00.

Basically, Phase 1 is 12000 more than Hasselblad for their respective top 100 Mpixels camera (10000 without VAT).

Quote
Honestly I don't get you all. I though we are talking about using the cameras for making money. If you really have trouble financing the difference perhaps you should reconsider the whole price as well and go with something significant cheaper. Because if not everything is going according to your plan even 27k can drew you.

It still is a large price difference for a comparable camera. Hasselblad new pricing is obviously very agressive and it seems natural to wonder whether Phase One will need to adjust to what is, after all, their main competitor.
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Christopher

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Re: P1 price list... Will they insist on it?
« Reply #31 on: April 08, 2016, 12:31:36 pm »

What was the price difference between both systems when the 60MP came out ? Pretty much the same. Did it change anything ? Not really.

If I really had to think hard on a  8-10k price difference I really would reconsider whether I shouldn't go with a cheaper solution in general or rent the equipment instead of buying it.


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Theodoros

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Re: P1 price list... Will they insist on it?
« Reply #32 on: April 08, 2016, 01:18:53 pm »


It still is a large price difference for a comparable camera. Hasselblad new pricing is obviously very agressive and it seems natural to wonder whether Phase One will need to adjust to what is, after all, their main competitor.

More than the price difference, it's the spec difference to consider... Especially the 4k RAW video ability will be most welcomed by many large studios around the world... It was obvious after the contract with ARRI and the teaming up with DJI that in Hasselblad they found access to cinema quality video technology... The first video samples that have appeared around the web look really impressive... And it gets even more promising if one considers the fact that it is only their first attempt with video...
If one remembers Dr Oosten's promise in his Lula interview for "lots of new products during 2016", it seems unlikely that the H6D will be all... Doug said about two months ago that Hasselblad asked P1 for the communication interface between MFDBs and camera bodies of Mamiya/P1.... It seems that they prepare a series of stand alone MFDBs for third party cameras (other than the H or V series bodies) too... If they go back and re-introduce the CF series of backs (hopefully with user interchangeable adapter plates as they used to do) and given the pricing policy and especially the price of the CFV 50c, things will get even rougher for competition...

I really don't see how P1 can survive having underspecified products at significantly higher prices... Clearly the reasonable choice with P1 is to reduce prices significantly below the respective Hasselblad offerings (which would mean to near half pricing) and then try to catch up on specs... (which isn't the easiest thing to do - especially as far as Hi End video is concerned)... 
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landscapephoto

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Re: P1 price list... Will they insist on it?
« Reply #33 on: April 08, 2016, 01:50:13 pm »

What was the price difference between both systems when the 60MP came out ? Pretty much the same. Did it change anything ? Not really.

I can't predict the future, but I can ask questions.

Quote
If I really had to think hard on a  8-10k price difference I really would reconsider whether I shouldn't go with a cheaper solution in general or rent the equipment instead of buying it.


This is quite strange. You seem to dismiss the price difference as if it was insignificant. 12K on a 29K camera is more than 30%.
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Theodoros

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Re: P1 price list... Will they insist on it?
« Reply #34 on: April 08, 2016, 03:59:22 pm »

More good news on the H6D... A forum member just pointed out that in Hasselblad's site it is in the specifications that the camera will take a film back... I checked and it is so... This should also mean that the H6D backs are compatible with the H5X body and thus when the 100MS version of the H6D appears, the back will be able to be used on the H5X body... I remind to all that Hasselblad now sells the 50cMS & the 200cMS backs as stand alone backs (without one having to purchase a camera with them), so it makes sense that the MS versions of the 100MS back will also be offered as a stand alone back....

Hmmm.... 400MP of true colour, with excellent LV for dead accurate focusing on stills and all that combined with 4K RAW video in an MFDB .... Yes, I would buy into that!
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eronald

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Re: P1 price list... Will they insist on it?
« Reply #35 on: April 08, 2016, 05:46:58 pm »

J,

Long time since a camera changed the *quality* of my work. Cameras don't open new arteries in the brain :)

I also suspect that buying a new computer won't turn *you* into a better programmer. No disrespect intended.

I suspect H will in the near future go for short very hi-rez *real raw* video clips. Would that ability impact your workflow significantly?

Edmund


I don't think there is anything wrong with non-buyers commenting on cameras, any cameras.   

It keeps it interesting and it's no different than comments on an autoblog with views on a Lambo vs. a McClaren and few will own one of those cars.

In fact it's more compelling than a site that is high 5 slap fest where everyone is like minded and has relationships with dealers or camera makers.

My take is for people that are already invested in one system in lenses will probably stay with that system, but buying in new, due to cost and availability of rentals, the Blad seems like an ok idea.

Especially if the motion capture is useable.

It all depends on what you shoot.  If your doing a lot of compositing and effects 10,000 px across might be the answer for something like this http://www.welovead.com/en/works/details/9e3wfupzi

What always fascinates me about these forums is people that invest in a system, believe it's going to change their work 100% and this is not a knock on anyone, but sometimes when I view their work it's more tech than art centric, which is ok if tech is your deal.

A camera brand won't change that.

But anyone should use what they want to use because nearly all semi pro to professional digital cameras are very good today.

I shot this medium format (or I guess almost medium format) because I wanted the grit of a ccd with tungsten (at least that's what I told myself) but in reality, I had just bought a Leica and wanted to use it.

Go figure.



IMO

BC
« Last Edit: April 08, 2016, 05:50:20 pm by eronald »
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BernardLanguillier

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Re: P1 price list... Will they insist on it?
« Reply #36 on: April 08, 2016, 08:09:27 pm »

Long time since a camera changed the *quality* of my work. :)

Leaving aside the most important parts (content, story, location, light,...), and speaking about technical aspects:
- Lens look is by far #1, and this is where some MF systems and Olympus 4:3 do IMHO shine brighter than pretty much anybody else (leaving some Zeiss wonders aside),
- Shooting experience remains key (EVF vs OVF,...),
- AF is IMHO the last remaining pure "tech" spec that can still change something and enable photographers to achieve "new" things that may result in "better" photographs (I know nobody cares about those monster cameras any longer but the AF of the D5 is the closest thing to raw magic).
- More DR did change something for some years, but we are now at such a great level with the latest bodies from most brands that this is also pretty much a thing of the past,
- At this point of time, more pixels don't change anything, zero, nitch,

Cheers,
Bernard

« Last Edit: April 09, 2016, 12:31:07 am by BernardLanguillier »
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abouho

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Re: P1 price list... Will they insist on it?
« Reply #37 on: April 08, 2016, 08:28:48 pm »

I don't see how they can after H6D announcement... they ask for 50% more for a back only (compared to Hassy's complete camera offering) with no video....

What effect a (significant) price drop would have on their recent customers (no matter how few they are)?
How would it affect refurbished & S/H equipment pricing?

50% more is a bit of an exaggeration. Where I'm sitting, a Phase One IQ3 50mp kit is 27,990 and a 100mp kit is 38,990. That's 5,000 difference compared to Hasselblad for 50mp and 10,000 for 100mp. Keep in mind that the Phase One price includes a lens, a travel case full of goodies, and a 5 year warranty and uptime guarantee.

I think a lot of people are forgetting the main reason that Phase One can justify their price: Hasselblad isn't shipping yet. Until June, your only 100mp option is a Phase One.

I can probably spend hours listing all the other advantages but there's really no point until Hasselblad start shipping.
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yashima

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Re: P1 price list... Will they insist on it?
« Reply #38 on: April 08, 2016, 08:56:08 pm »


[edit: misinformation. It had been a long time I last looked at Phocus]
« Last Edit: April 08, 2016, 09:17:00 pm by yashima »
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NickT

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Re: P1 price list... Will they insist on it?
« Reply #39 on: April 08, 2016, 09:04:16 pm »

Focus processes any RAW file that is natively supported on Mac.
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