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Author Topic: P1 price list... Will they insist on it?  (Read 59462 times)

yashima

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Re: P1 price list... Will they insist on it?
« Reply #40 on: April 08, 2016, 09:14:54 pm »

@Nick: my bad  :-[ I definitely didn't look hard enough
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eronald

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Re: P1 price list... Will they insist on it?
« Reply #41 on: April 08, 2016, 09:40:35 pm »

i was thinking capturing gestures and microexpressions.
Hassy and Phase might manage to record bursts of v. hi rez.

Significantly is a pretty big word.

I dunno.  I haven't seen footage, or graded it, or .....

For some, probably if they have a client that want's some quick footage of a still shoot.

Actually for me I don't need a 100mpx still camera with single point autofocus.  I don't think I need more than 50mpx ever and at that it would be a 5dwhatever.

Motion footage is much different than a collection of stills. 

There is not only bit depth but bytes or bits per second, shutter angle, alaising, moire, depending on how they downsample the sensor and motion cameras that shoot a high bit rate get real hot.

Pick up a medium format camera, then pick up an Epic with a evf, screen and vlock, and you'd think you lifted your sofa and the Epic is small in the cinema camera world. 

That's why it's used for a lot of 3d.

I hope for some it works great and I think it's a good addition, but I've heard the line that Hasselblad works with Arri on lenses for Arri's larger format camera, so they have an inside track.

Maybe they do, but I doubt seriously if Arri opened their book and said this is how you do it.

But then again I'm not in the camera biz so I really don't know.

Could be wrong.

No the only additional camera I need now is something like the 1dxII and that's only if the footage is deep and moveable, because I could use a good autofocus motion lifestyle camera that works fast.

But as everything, the proof is in your own use and what your clients expect.

Right now we have a showing and I'm trying to make some large format prints.  It seems if we leave a printer for an hour some head needs cleaning, or tank is overflowing so that's kind of where my head is today.

We're going to give it two more hours then probably it's off to a lab for prints.

IMO

BC
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Chris Livsey

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Re: P1 price list... Will they insist on it?
« Reply #42 on: April 09, 2016, 04:23:56 am »

(I know nobody cares about those monster cameras any longer but the AF of the D5 is the closest thing to raw magic).
Cheers,
Bernard

The D500 isn't going to be a "monster" and has the D5 focus unit, the chip remains unknown but Nikon did some rather strange things with the D5 chip it is emerging, very niche market, is this the future? Sell several cameras highly specialised instead of a good enough all rounder? MFD is of course a niche already.
New Phocus download is not activated yet, I find it useful for tweaking B/W scans without going to one of the heavy lifting programs, I appreciate how open it is and the associated cost  ;)
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Theodoros

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Re: P1 price list... Will they insist on it?
« Reply #43 on: April 09, 2016, 01:14:18 pm »

Significantly is a pretty big word.


I hope for some it works great and I think it's a good addition, but I've heard the line that Hasselblad works with Arri on lenses for Arri's larger format camera, so they have an inside track.

Maybe they do, but I doubt seriously if Arri opened their book and said this is how you do it.

But then again I'm not in the camera biz so I really don't know.



Hi, it is usual in industry two companies joining forces if they both have to benefit from it... Hassy didn't just agree to supply the lenses for  (what is admittedly considered to be) the world's best motion system, but they signed an agreement with Arri the content of which was never published for us to know.... I also doubt that Arri "opened their book" to Hassy, but as you know, Arri's technology can't be harmed if they help a starter to catch (or even lead) up with the direct competition he has to deal with... (which is very different to Arri's).  To the contradict, collaborations like that can be very beneficial for companies like Arri as they can profit further having an income from an "invisible to public door" as well as have provider for cheaper but TOP quality lenses, or even save from parts of software/hardware developments that need not be exclusive to them....

It is impressive that Hasselblad entered the video era with 4k RAW video and exclusive software dedicated to it... isn't it? I guess you know better than me that this is not at all an easy thing to do....  ;)
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Theodoros

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Re: P1 price list... Will they insist on it?
« Reply #44 on: April 09, 2016, 04:29:12 pm »

50% more is a bit of an exaggeration. Where I'm sitting, a Phase One IQ3 50mp kit is €27,990 and a 100mp kit is €38,990. That's €5,000 difference compared to Hasselblad for 50mp and €10,000 for 100mp. Keep in mind that the Phase One price includes a lens, a travel case full of goodies, and a 5 year warranty and uptime guarantee.



It is 50% difference... Nobody is stupid enough not to buy an 1.5K camera in the S/H market and then get a 45% discount on a new H6D-100....


I think a lot of people are forgetting the main reason that Phase One can justify their price: Hasselblad isn't shipping yet. Until June, your only 100mp option is a Phase One.

I can probably spend hours listing all the other advantages but there's really no point until Hasselblad start shipping.



Actually it works the other way around.... Announcements are a standard process in industry, as to cut off sales from competition and add pre-orders to a firm...
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ErikKaffehr

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Re: P1 price list... Will they insist on it?
« Reply #45 on: April 09, 2016, 05:53:17 pm »

Hi BC,

I don't feel that choosing a certain camera brand will make you a better photographer…

On the other hand I think that there are enabling technologies that matter. For one thing, I like zooms, just as an example. Perhaps I give up quite a bit of image quality but I can choose point of view and crop when taking the image.

Another example is that I was longing for being able to use tilts for something like 28 years. The reason is that I want to shoot alpine flowers with the mountains as a backdrop. I have tried different solutions, like tilt adapter on DSLR and the Hasselblad Flexbody with my P45+. The Flexbody works well on tabletop settings but it is less usable in the field. You need to unmount the back, replace it with a focusing adapter to do your adjustments and focus and put the back into place. Not very practical in the field.

The solution I have now is a smart T&S adapter called HCam Master TSII. It can take almost any lens and do T&S. I have plenty of MF glass (Pentax 67 and Hasselblad) that can be used with it, but I wanted something more portable. So, I bought a Canon 24-105/4 as it allows for tilts. Problem with that platform is that it needs a Canon body to set the aperture. So, I decided to buy a Contax 35-135/3.3-4.5 as it has a manual aperture and lies in my intended focal range.

Hopefully, this will allow me to take some pictures I have planned since 1988. Can be it won't work out… Anyway, I don't think camera brands are enabling technology but lenses can be…

Best regards
Erik

Ps. That Contax 35-135/3.3-4.5 is pretty neat…






What always fascinates me about these forums is people that invest in a system, believe it's going to change their work 100% and this is not a knock on anyone, but sometimes when I view their work it's more tech than art centric, which is ok if tech is your deal.

A camera brand won't change that.


IMO

BC
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Theodoros

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Re: P1 price list... Will they insist on it?
« Reply #46 on: April 09, 2016, 10:07:31 pm »


I think Leaf 100mp back with Sony sensor will be out in the market sooner than expected... At a reasonable price too... It's also time for an IQ2-100 followed perhaps by an IQ1-100 a few weeks later...
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eronald

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Re: P1 price list... Will they insist on it?
« Reply #47 on: April 09, 2016, 11:18:25 pm »

I think Leaf 100mp back with Sony sensor will be out in the market sooner than expected... At a reasonable price too... It's also time for an IQ2-100 followed perhaps by an IQ1-100 a few weeks later...

Does the Credo focus better or have faster flash sync?

Edmund
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Theodoros

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Re: P1 price list... Will they insist on it?
« Reply #48 on: April 09, 2016, 11:37:57 pm »

Does the Credo focus better or have faster flash sync?

Edmund

No... it does't do 1hr exposures either... but they'll never learn that the rules of the game have changed by the time there's no Dalsa to deny the 80mp sensor from competition... They think they can repeat the damage (to MF in general - not only to Hassy) by replacing it with marketing... But if they created a good base of funboys, if they closed Rollei down (by refusing to support the HY-6 system - thus damaging MF further...) it doesn't matter now... It's payback time!

Guess what... MF market is expanding already after P1 is in real trouble!
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Graham Welland

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Re: P1 price list... Will they insist on it?
« Reply #49 on: April 10, 2016, 03:48:30 am »


Guess what... MF market is expanding already after P1 is in real trouble!

Do you really think that Phase One is reading this list and quaking in their boots over your predictions of doom and gloom? Just saying something time and time again, and louder and louder doesn't make it true.

Also your predictions of IQ2 & IQ1 versions of the 100mp back clearly demonstrates further that you have absolutely no idea at all what you are talking about.
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abouho

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Re: P1 price list... Will they insist on it?
« Reply #50 on: April 10, 2016, 04:52:32 am »



It is 50% difference... Nobody is stupid enough not to buy an 1.5K camera in the S/H market and then get a 45% discount on a new H6D-100....
 

Actually it works the other way around.... Announcements are a standard process in industry, as to cut off sales from competition and add pre-orders to a firm...

I can take that same 1.5k camera and get a 45% discount on a Phase One. So it's still not 50%.

I don't think you're looking at this from a working professional's perspective. If a job comes up tomorrow that requires 100mp, no one's going to ask their client to wait until June in order to save a lousy 10k. Whether you rent or you buy, you can only use the tools available to you at the moment, and unless you're a very special Hasselblad ambassador, your only option is Phase One.

Announcing something and then making customers wait more than a month to get their hands on it might stop a few people from buying your competitors' products, but it'll definitely stop everyone from buying your own products until the new ones are out.
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Miyata610

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Re: P1 price list... Will they insist on it?
« Reply #51 on: April 10, 2016, 07:39:20 am »

Since we haven't had any 100 megapixel options until just a few weeks ago, how can it be that a job could come up that requires 100 megapixels?
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Chris Livsey

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Re: P1 price list... Will they insist on it?
« Reply #52 on: April 10, 2016, 07:59:27 am »

You got to feel the pain for the guy who has a job lined up but "needs" 200 megapixels and can't stitch.
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Bart_van_der_Wolf

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Re: P1 price list... Will they insist on it?
« Reply #53 on: April 10, 2016, 08:35:27 am »

You got to feel the pain for the guy who has a job lined up but "needs" 200 megapixels and can't stitch.

Exactly!

And even with stitching, there is still a benefit to using large megapixel sensors, because it will require fewer tiles to stitch and thus results in a reduced amount of postprocessing. That is in addition to the benefit of the better image quality one can achieve from any lens, by denser sampling of the optical image.

BTW as per the topic of the thread, if one cannot afford the more expensive solution (which includes the high level of support, trade-in pricing, and training one also pays for), then buy something cheaper, or use your existing equipment and stitch (if the subject allows).

Cheers,
Bart
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landscapephoto

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Re: P1 price list... Will they insist on it?
« Reply #54 on: April 10, 2016, 08:47:51 am »

I can take that same 1.5k camera and get a 45% discount on a Phase One. So it's still not 50%.

Can you? I am not aware of trade-in offers on the newer Phase One XF and IQ backs, while the Hasselblad offer has been made public.

Quote
I don't think you're looking at this from a working professional's perspective. If a job comes up tomorrow that requires 100mp, no one's going to ask their client to wait until June in order to save a lousy 10k. Whether you rent or you buy, you can only use the tools available to you at the moment, and unless you're a very special Hasselblad ambassador, your only option is Phase One.

Sure, but the question is in the future tense: will they insist on it? So, in the future, when both the XF and H6D will be available, will Phase One lower their price to adjust to the new competition? I don't know, I can't predict the future, but the question is perfectly reasonable nevertheless. It is quite simple really: two cameras, similar features, one is quite a bit cheaper. What will the more expensive manufacturer do? We don't know, but we may ask.

On a side note, I am quite surprised by the amount of "forum users" who feel like they need to defend Phase One pricing or policies. I am perfectly sure that Phase One does not need their help. They built amongst the best cameras on the market, they certainly have a marketing division able to take decisions on pricing, they don't need any help from forum users.
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JoeKitchen

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Re: P1 price list... Will they insist on it?
« Reply #55 on: April 10, 2016, 09:12:02 am »


I don't think you're looking at this from a working professional's perspective. If a job comes up tomorrow that requires 100mp, no one's going to ask their client to wait until June in order to save a lousy 10k. Whether you rent or you buy, you can only use the tools available to you at the moment, and unless you're a very special Hasselblad ambassador, your only option is Phase One.


What job really requires 100 MP?

Aside from maybe working with an ill informed naive client, whom are usually not the best people to work with anyway, I can't think of any. 
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william

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Re: P1 price list... Will they insist on it?
« Reply #56 on: April 10, 2016, 10:10:31 am »

Well...

I posted in another thread that I have a couple of jobs coming up in May for which 100mp "would be useful" given the nature of the jobs.  Do they "require" 100mp? In a strict sense, no: it's not like the client said "you must have a camera that shoots 100mp."   But in a practical sense, it's entirely possible to have potential work (as I do) for which 100mp would be useful, even if not strictly required, and even though the 100mp options are new. *I* can get these jobs done faster and better with a 100mp option, given the subject matter.  Someone else might be able to do them equally well and equally efficiently with 50mp files. Or 30mp files. Or an iPhone.  And that's fair enough. But it's myopic to believe that there's no professional scenarios in which 100mp would be deemed "needed" by a photographer. 

In a pinch, I could make do, of course, and might very well have to do so.


What job really requires 100 MP?

Aside from maybe working with an ill informed naive client, whom are usually not the best people to work with anyway, I can't think of any.
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kers

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Re: P1 price list... Will they insist on it?
« Reply #57 on: April 10, 2016, 10:51:03 am »

What job really requires 100 MP?

Aside from maybe working with an ill informed naive client, whom are usually not the best people to work with anyway, I can't think of any.

Depth of field will be smaller too... never giving you the 100MP sharpness on most of the image. And perfect focus is critical too.
Diminishing returns...
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william

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Re: P1 price list... Will they insist on it?
« Reply #58 on: April 10, 2016, 10:58:59 am »

I keep hearing people say higher megapixel backs will result in less depth of field.  No principle of physics with which I am familiar supports that.... Sensor size would affect DOF; megapixel count would not.

As to diffraction: that is also unaffected by megapixel count, as I understand it. 

In sum: it has always been my understanding that the physics of lens aperture and capture surface size are unaffected by megapixel count. 

Depth of field will be smaller too... never giving you the 100MP sharpness on most of the image. And perfect focus is critical too.
Diminishing returns...
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kers

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Re: P1 price list... Will they insist on it?
« Reply #59 on: April 10, 2016, 11:09:33 am »

I keep hearing people say higher megapixel backs will result in less depth of field.  No principle of physics with which I am familiar supports that.... Sensor size would affect DOF; megapixel count would not.

As to diffraction: that is also unaffected by megapixel count, as I understand it. 

In sum: it has always been my understanding that the physics of lens aperture and capture surface size are unaffected by megapixel count.

You are right, but; with more (smaller) pixels you see the depth of field that otherwise is hidden in the larger pixels...
the same with diffraction...
« Last Edit: April 10, 2016, 12:32:24 pm by kers »
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