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Author Topic: P1 price list... Will they insist on it?  (Read 65974 times)

abouho

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Re: P1 price list... Will they insist on it?
« Reply #80 on: April 10, 2016, 06:39:11 pm »

LOL.... You are real fun to talk with... Thanks, but I had all the jokes I could hear for the rest of the year....

Have you ever tried using a multishot back outside of a studio? Have you ever tried using one without a tripod? Even in the studio and with a tripod, have you tried using one to shoot food?
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NickT

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Re: P1 price list... Will they insist on it?
« Reply #81 on: April 10, 2016, 06:46:45 pm »

Have you ever tried using a multishot back outside of a studio?

Yes shot interiors (bed linen) on location for years. You do have to watch for movement.

 
Quote
Have you ever tried using one without a tripod?

I assume you are being humorous here?

 
Quote
Even in the studio and with a tripod, have you tried using one to shoot food?

Yes I've shot food with multi-shot, again you have to watch for movement. Food isn't something that benefits from multi-shot as much as other subjects because of it's soft organic nature.

Where multi-shot really shines is with fine detailed subjects like whiskey bottles.
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abouho

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Re: P1 price list... Will they insist on it?
« Reply #82 on: April 10, 2016, 06:48:07 pm »

If you really have perfect such knowledge, you will be a desirable marketing consultant for the industry!
I pity Hasselblad for getting their market wrong, they should have thought of hiring you.

Edmund

I don't think what I said is that ground breaking. If my goal was to shoot film and money was an issue, I wouldn't be buying an H6D. You can buy a significant amount of film cameras for €20,000 in 2016. Same can be said for video.
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abouho

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Re: P1 price list... Will they insist on it?
« Reply #83 on: April 10, 2016, 06:58:24 pm »

Yes shot interiors (bed linen) on location for years. You do have to watch for movement.

 
I assume you are being humorous here?

 
Yes I've shot food with multi-shot, again you have to watch for movement. Food isn't something that benefits from multi-shot as much as other subjects because of it's soft organic nature.

Where multi-shot really shines is with fine detailed subjects like whiskey bottles.

My point exactly. In most situations (in and out of product photography), you would benefit more using a 100mp single shot over a 200mp multishot.

I wasn't being humorous about the tripod. Multishot is for a very specific kind of photographer. Theodorus makes it seem like you'd be an idiot to pass on using one.
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NickT

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Re: P1 price list... Will they insist on it?
« Reply #84 on: April 10, 2016, 07:02:42 pm »

Multishot is for a very specific kind of photographer. Theodorus makes it seem like you'd be an idiot to pass on using one.

Agreed on both counts :)
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eronald

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Re: P1 price list... Will they insist on it?
« Reply #85 on: April 11, 2016, 12:54:14 am »

J,

 You know what, I agree with you. Digital is simply not as flexible a medium as film, especially for movie work. Digital could be as good, it really could, but it is not because the digital process has been underspecced. This has been done on purpose, so new equipment that is "better" can be marketed and sold. Planned obsolescence. The film process was designed as something that would justify a really heavy infrastructure investment -think Kodachrome manufacturing and development plant- , and would never never need a mod. It was designed to be good, not just good enough for a few years.

 If I may be allowed an explanatory aside, the reason why the japanese firms and all photo firms loved 35mm still camera format so much was that the equipment could always be "improved". It was never never just good. I learnt that lesson when as a teenager I went from turn of the century plate cameras to a Leica -and then to an SLR - the old plate camera was always better. My 40-year-old design 500 series Hassy was always better than any of those top grade 35mm cameras too - because it was really good, designed from the beginning to never need an upgrade.

 In still photography we are seeing some of this planned obsolescence thinking yet again. So called "full frame" cameras are now so good that ta any reasonable viewing size their images at 200 ISO are indistinguishable from each other and from generation to generation. So the manufacturers are pushing "Micro 4/3" etc where differences will still be apparent for at least 10 years.

Edmund

For motion footage there is a lot of requirements.  It's more than downsampling, pixel count and frame rates.

Will the raw footage from this camera work in established workflows or have to be transcoded in proprietary software?

Is the footage read out global or rolling, because the rolling shutter from a ff 35mm sensor like the A7sII will skew if you breath hard on it?

Most importantly is what is the camera designed for?   Quick takes from a still session, or a real motion production? (and that comes in about 400 flavors depending on brief and medium).

In the motion world I've personally never seen a small camera shoot as filmic and reliably as a small camera.   Not sensor size, but just the size of the camera, because as i've mentioned rough and tumble cinema cameras make a lot of heat and if you pan slowly and the world turns into a funhouse mirror, then that's not going forward.

I'm positive if Arri or RED could make a camera the size of a hasselblad that shot as well as their physically large cameras they would, because there is a market for drones, hand held stabilizers and fast production.  Both companies have smaller cameras for these uses, but they shoot smaller sensors but usually only for drones and special applications.

Last night we went to "Midnight Special", a movie from two young film makers, Nichols and Stone.  It's seamless, except for some of the digital effects in the end, but overall it's just beautiful in look and story.

Intelligent and modern.   This team with 4 features in their life, has always shot film, this movie on Kodak vision and Panavision cameras with as many practical effects as possible.

In other words If you walked on their set it would essentially be the same equipment from 15 years ago, not the latest.

I viewed it in a new sony 4k theatre and I don't know if they scanned 2k, 4k or a billion k but it wouldn't make any difference.

Art over science and this is a very fast good read.

http://motion.kodak.com/us/en/motion/blog/blog_post?contentid=4294993681

Theodoros,

The DCI (digital cinema initiative) is going for a standard.   4k cinema 4096 x 2160 1.91 to 1 aspect ration , uhd as you mentioned is 3840 x 2160 in a 16x9 aspect for TV viewing, though with TV the lines are blurred depending on what service you have and decoding boxes.

But overall 4k is still the wild west in adoption and is much a catch phrase as a real standard.   Not that a lot of people don't produce 4k, though every maker get's there in a different manner and every client I shoot for has a different standard in delivery. 

Sony is making the biggest push in viewing 4k as they really need to sell TVs.

Nick,

If your going to shoot some motion clips of your still life projects, (and excuse me if you've already done this), be sure to block out the video first as even a fat 16x9 ratio is much different than any still crop, 2 to 1 much more different.

Also be prepared to spend 8 grand on the computer because decent grading and even simple editing of 4k is a daunting process.

I know your a hasselblad guy, but honestly if motion creation is on your list, you'll save a lot of money just buying a Black Magic Ursa Mini 4.6 for 5 grand (U.S.) that shoots to prores.  You'll also save a lot of time and angst.
« Last Edit: April 11, 2016, 01:01:00 am by eronald »
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ErikKaffehr

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Re: P1 price list... Will they insist on it?
« Reply #86 on: April 11, 2016, 03:46:19 am »

Hi,

From what I have seen from Doug's library shots I would think that the microlenses on the IQ-250 increase thesampling area of the pixels, that also helps reducing aliasing. More area sampling and less point sampling.

Best regards
Erik


Yes, there is some, especially when compared to similar technology CMOS 50Mp backs (4.6 micron pitch instead of 5.3 micron pitch, or 108.7 cy/mm versus 94.3 cy/mm at Nquist, or 15% higher) the resolution difference is significant (more than 1% becomes visible, more than 10% is significant), and overall MTF is higher, and aliasing is less. But resolution is not the only benefit, overall image quality benefits as well, and postprocessing results become more robust.

Cheers,
Bart
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synn

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Re: P1 price list... Will they insist on it?
« Reply #87 on: April 11, 2016, 04:33:53 am »

No... it does't do 1hr exposures either...

Maybe you should learn a bit about the products you're trying to sling mud against before you mouth off in the forums.

The Credo 50 does long exposures just as much as every other CMOS back does. The CCD versions don't, but neither do any Hasselblads of similar spec and vintage. In fact, none of the CCD backs do, except the Phase Ones you despise.

it doesn't matter now... It's payback time!


I remember those old P1 videos where a P series back was run over by a car and still survived. Did they accidentally run over your puppy while shooting it? Sure sounds like it. Payback for what? making the better product for years when the competition decided to hibernate? Stop taaking these things so personally.

You keep going on and on about the virtues of this Hasselblad and insist that not a single person will touch Phase Ones after this. let's please do a reality check.

- Multishot : Doesn't exist for this back and is not an arguing point until it doe.s I know you like to talk about vaporware as real product (How's that Leica-Sinar tech camera with autofocus for SL lenses coming along? Still a figment of imagination? OK), but even if a 100MP multishot CMOS Hasselblad comes to be, multishot products will still remain a TINY segment within an already tiny market, like they have always been. No multishot back has ever outsold single shot backs and they never will. Even with several multishot products in their portfolio, Blad or Sinar has never outsold P1/ Leaf and they're not gonna start now. The multishot Hasselblads haven't even outsold the Single shot Hasselblads for that matter.

- Film compatibility : Are you really serious? For the price of a Hasselblad lens cap, one can have an entire Zenza Bronica kit with brilliant lenses. I have exactly that and I rarely use it. Film is expensive, all my favorite emulsions are either out of production or ridiculously hard to find and labs are closing left and right. Film shooters are again, a very niche market and no professional making a 5 figure purchase decision for his digital workflow is going to do so with film compatibility in mind. It's a nice to have feature, not a deal breaker.

- Price : This is a big one and yes, the Blad is cheaper. Like they have always been and that has changed nothing. For an enthusiast making a one time purchase decision, it sure is a big chunk of savings, but not for someone who has already invested a significant amount in the Phamiya platform. the only people jumping back and forth between systems to be on the next technology leap are the ones making a ton of noise online. Pros, the kind that can sink 40k into new gear, make up the difference in a couple of shoots. The 5year comprehensive warranty is worth more to them than a 10k price difference. but of course, as a high end pro, you already know this.

- 4K video  : This has made me laugh a lot. Seriously. One can have REALLY GOOD 4K video on a €400 Panasonic. Which incidentally, is less than a Phase One lenscap. What do you think is more likely? A phase owner adding one of them cheap and good 4K cameras to his kit or selling tens of thousands of euros/ dollars worth of gear to shift to Hasselblad just because it offers 4K? (Which is still untested, no one knows how good the output is i.e. if it does line skipping, How bad the rolling shutter is, how fine one can focus pull on the blad lenses etc.)

I really like this new Blad. I really do. It's a MAJOR leap for them, offers a TON of new features to those who have been loyal to the Blad platform and finally brings some healthy competition to the top end of the market. However, I really could do without these asinine posts every time there is a new product launch.

Please use what you like and extend the same courtesy to those who have different tastes and requirements.
« Last Edit: April 11, 2016, 04:45:29 am by synn »
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Christopher

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Re: P1 price list... Will they insist on it?
« Reply #88 on: April 11, 2016, 07:30:08 am »

Couldn't have said it better. +1 @synn


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Bart_van_der_Wolf

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Re: P1 price list... Will they insist on it?
« Reply #89 on: April 11, 2016, 08:12:50 am »

From what I have seen from Doug's library shots I would think that the microlenses on the IQ-250 increase thesampling area of the pixels, that also helps reducing aliasing. More area sampling and less point sampling.

Hi Erik,

That's correct. A higher apparent fill-factor, due to gap-less microlenses, creates a better cut-off (zero MTF response) at Nyquist. Aliasing should be reduced, as a result of the area sampling. The microlenses may cause issues for ultra wide-angle or shifted lenses though. But at 100Mp, lens shifts can be partially replaced by keystone corrections in post-processing.

I've also noticed that the H6D-50c is spec'ed as (almost) 14 bit DR, and the H6D-100c as 15 bit DR (similar to the Phase One in 16-bit mode). So the H6D-50c apparently only has a 14 bit ADC pipeline.
The extra stop of DR of the H6D-100c and the IQ3-100Mp allows slightly better deconvolution restoration  from diffraction and lens blur, because there is less noise to complicate that restoration process.

Cheers,
Bart
« Last Edit: April 11, 2016, 08:30:03 am by BartvanderWolf »
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eronald

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Re: P1 price list... Will they insist on it?
« Reply #90 on: April 11, 2016, 08:18:03 am »

Couldn't have said it better. +1 @synn


Christopher Hauser
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There are two real innovations in this 100 Mp Hassy, and one key feature.
-1/2000 sync
- Raw video
- True Focus

Any pro who *needs* the sync or the focus WILL choose Hassy because focus and sync are hard to work around *if* you need them. Others won't care.

The jury is out on the video, it may be key for recording bursts from the main cam without a second setup, or it may be useless. Synn conveniently "forgets" that pros often use a moving model and multiple images per second motor-drive in 35mm fashion shoots, but maybe he doesn't have much experience here as he always uses medium format and a stiill-posed model.

Edmund



« Last Edit: April 11, 2016, 08:23:43 am by eronald »
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synn

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Re: P1 price list... Will they insist on it?
« Reply #91 on: April 11, 2016, 08:23:01 am »

There are two real innovations in this 100 Mp Hassy, and one key feature.
-1/2000 sync
- Raw video
- True Focus

Any pro who *needs* the sync or the focus WILL choose Hassy because focus and sync are hard to work around *if* you need them. Others won't care.

The jury is out on the video, it may be key for recording bursts from the main cam without a second setup, or it may be useless. Synn conveniently "forgets" that pros often use a moving model and multiple images per second motor-drive in 35mm fashion shoots, but maybe he doesn't have much experience here as he always uses medium format and a stiill-posed model.

Edmund

lol.

Edmund "Conveniently" forgets that top fashion and glamour pros have survived and continue to survive with the 1 point Phase One focus and the "Mere" 1/1600 sync (Which is pointless in a studio and I fail to see any situation where 1/1600 sync is not good enough, but 1/2000 is. I also see the irony in Phase haters hiding behind the rocks when Phase's 1/1600 sync was twice as fast as the competition, but now that Hassy has 1/2000, they are out in full force to knock it a peg down). if it's good enough for Drew gardner, Joey L and Frank Doorhof, it's good enough for you and me. Do I wish Phamiya had Tru Focus? Yes. Do I NEED it to nail a shot? Not really. I can nail pretty much any shot that I want with my 1 point DF+ as I can with my 51 point D800.

Speaking of experience, I am doing a commisioned shoot this friday with the prehistoric Phamiya. When was the last time you touched something medium format, Edmund?
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eronald

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Re: P1 price list... Will they insist on it?
« Reply #92 on: April 11, 2016, 08:30:49 am »

Actually you are right people who are happy will be happy; Phase won't lose the book-shooters and because of Hassy; and if Phase really syncs at 1/1600 then therebis little difference here. Also in the studio at F11 focus becomes irrelevant.

Edmund

lol.

Edmund "Conveniently" forgets that top fashion and glamour pros have survived and continue to survive with the 1 point Phase One focus and the "Mere" 1/1600 sync (Which is pointless in a studio and I fail to see any situation where 1/1600 sync is not good enough, but 1/2000 is). if it's good enough for Drew gardner, Joey L and Frank Doorhof, it's good enough for you and me. Do I wish Phamiya had Tru Focus? Yes. Do I NEED it to nail a shot? Not really. I can nail pretty much any shot that I want with my 1 point DF+ as I can with my 51 point D800.

Speaking of experience, I am doing a commisioned shoot this friday with the prehistoric Phamiya. When was the last time you touched something medium format, Edmund?
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Christoph B.

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Re: P1 price list... Will they insist on it?
« Reply #93 on: April 11, 2016, 10:47:57 am »

It's kind of weird that people like Richard Avedon were able to shoot without 1/2000s, video or even TrueFocus...
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landscapephoto

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Re: P1 price list... Will they insist on it?
« Reply #94 on: April 11, 2016, 12:05:49 pm »

1/2000s or 1/1600s, the difference is irrelevant in practice, only means one thing: if you want to kill Sunlight, you will need half the strobe power. Considering the price of powerful studio lights running on batteries, that translates to real money. But indeed that won't make the pictures any better.
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Christoph B.

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Re: P1 price list... Will they insist on it?
« Reply #95 on: April 11, 2016, 01:49:54 pm »

1/2000 vs 1/1600 means half the strobe power to kill sunlight?

Wouldn't that take 1/3200?

Besides that would require a pretty short flash duration, that's not really the specialty of many powerful studio lights, most of them won't have short flash durations than 1/500 at 1200Ws (t0.1)...

In fact with 1/1600 or 1/2000 you are forced to use very low power settings, higher power settings just won't do. If you want to freeze motion you're better served with using a short flash duration in a controlled environment anyway, if you can't capture it with 1/1600 you won't be able to get it with 1/2000 either.

In my opinion Hasselblad and PhaseOne are both equally expensive, especially when you consider the face that P1 is already available and has a head start with the new sensor and that PhaseOne has had modern leafshutter lenses with 1/1600s for a long time - so if you already have them you don't need to upgrade them. But if you have to (or rather if you _want_ to) upgrade your Hasselblad lenses it'll cost you.

If you're entering MF and you're looking for the 'cheaper' solution the Hasselblad might seem tempting though - but I think most of us here already have a certain system we're working on and which we're familiar with.
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landscapephoto

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Re: P1 price list... Will they insist on it?
« Reply #96 on: April 11, 2016, 02:15:01 pm »

1/2000 vs 1/1600 means half the strobe power to kill sunlight?

Wouldn't that take 1/3200?

I meant: 1/2000 or 1/1600 will need half the power of the older solution (1/800). If you read carefully, I did not write "vs", but "or".

Quote
Besides that would require a pretty short flash duration, that's not really the specialty of many powerful studio lights, most of them won't have short flash durations than 1/500 at 1200Ws (t0.1)...

Indeed and that is another problem: only modern lights will have a flash duration short enough.
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Theodoros

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Re: P1 price list... Will they insist on it?
« Reply #97 on: April 11, 2016, 02:56:33 pm »

It's good to see so (few  ;)) many  ;) fun boys insisting that others (that can buy the stuff) should ...pay more and also have underspecified products to their needs... It's also good to see people being unable to get a decent value out of their older equipment, or unable to upgrade it because it isn't supported anymore and yet insist that those how can pay should fall into the same trap...

No -I agree- MFDBs shouldn't have 4K RAW video... Although there's convergence of technologies and although in a year or two, MFDBs will be used on (specially designed) view cameras for broadcast quality video...
No -I agree- MFDBs shouldn't have true colour quality with no interpolation... Interpolated colour full of artefacts is good enough... (tell that to a seriously run museum... go figure...)

I guess (sooner than later) there will be a reaction from P1... They are loosing ground day by the day and the more ground they loose, the more difficult it will be to catch up... They urgently need a redesign of their pricing policies, they need a collaboration with a (serious) motion video company that has the know how they (completely) luck on the technology... They need to find a way as to support back their P/P+ series customers and they do need to make true colour backs... The earlier they do, the better for them and for the MF market... If the MF market stays without competition and without a wide base of customers (like it happened in the recent past with the foolish marketing decisions of Hassy which left P1 alone into selling backs to third party platforms), it's bad for MF... Now that CMOS brought a (late) revolution to the MF market, it's a good chance for a restart...

Hassy, as the CEO of it confirmed in his interview, prepares a new - portable - entry level MF camera (one can conclude out of the interview that they plan to compete with Leica S -he mentions exactly the Leica S by name- but at a better price)... They also promised lots of new products (backs, cameras, lenses) during 2016... It is also known (Doug can confirm this) that they got access to the P1 communication interface between cameras and backs (means that they'll make backs for P1 & other third party cameras)... They hired 6x times (!!!!) as much personel in their R&D department than they used to have... One can either welcome the progress or think of it from the POV of the football fun, that watches the match with his team being 6-0 down by the first half and yet insist that nothing should be changed (because his "funboysm" prevents him to see that it is a worst team)...
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Christoph B.

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Re: P1 price list... Will they insist on it?
« Reply #98 on: April 11, 2016, 03:18:18 pm »

I meant: 1/2000 or 1/1600 will need half the power of the older solution (1/800). If you read carefully, I did not write "vs", but "or".

Indeed and that is another problem: only modern lights will have a flash duration short enough.


Ah well then sorry, I misread your comment. Thought you meant
Quote
...the difference (...) only means one thing:
. My bad!

Anyway - I don't see any modern powerful studio lights with a short enough flash duration at a higher power setting. The Profoto Pro8a 2400 will have 1/1600 t0.5 = ±1/500 t0.1, the Broncolor Scoro are pretty much the same. Even with the smaller generators you're still well below 1/800-1000....so even the 'old' Hasselblad lenses were able to deliver that.

@ Theodoros: I think nobody wants to keep bad technology alive but everyone has to make decisions for his/her business based on real actual needs and usefulness. Better image quality is a good argument for a new camera - but stuff like videomode? Hmm not sure about that one. Would it be 'nice' to have it? Sure. Do I need it? No. Do most or any medium format shooters need it? Doubtful. New features are always nice unless they a. get in your way or b. are not worth the price of an upgrade or system change.

PhaseOne currently has a 100mp back for sale. Hasselblad does not. Not yet. And the price difference isn't humongous, it's like buying real estate on earth for a lot of money whilst being promised real estate on the moon for less but almost the same amount of money. If you need a camera now it doesn't help you that the HB will be a bit cheaper.  If you already have a PhaseOne outfit it won't help that the HB is a bit cheaper, the cost for switching systems will be too high. It only makes a bit of a difference if you're new to the MF market but that does not mean you'll automatically but the latest and most expensive of the digital lineup from one company or the other. And if you're already a Hasselblad user then it wouldn't make a difference either, you wouldn't have bought the Phase back anyway, even if it was the same price or a few hundred bucks cheaper.

And if money doesn't matter to you (perhaps you have a few oil wells in your garden or you're a politician) then you will have already bought the 100MP PhaseOne and now you can look forward to the 100MP Hasselblad until the 120MP IQ4 is released with video and many other additional features.
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Re: P1 price list... Will they insist on it?
« Reply #99 on: April 11, 2016, 03:25:25 pm »

@Theo

Everyone can bus what they want and I still believe some here won't even bye the Hasselblad options as it still to expensive.

And yes You are talking about production in the future but honestly nobody will need a S type camera from Hasselblad if there is a 70+ camera from Sony and Nikon which might even shoot 8k or at least REAL 4K and not the stupid Tv stuff.

When I listen to you it sounds like Phase one is doomed. And it sounds exactly the same as when back in the days Pentax released their first CMOS. Guess what ? Still doesn't look horrible for Phase.

Get back to me once there actually is a solution I could use on my Arca or Alpa which does not require stupid cables and extra stuff from Hasselblad. Get back to me when Hasselbald provides us with great features like focus stacking or a seismograph.

These all might be unimportant for fashion shooters, but I wouldn't trade them for a Hasselblad back if it would cost only 20k.


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