P1 price list... Will they insist on it?

[Theodoros]

Please Hasselblad.... When you release the stand alone backs for third party platforms, make them with user interchangeable adapter plates like it was with the CF backs... I'll be buying the first MS version CMOS back that comes out!

[NickT]

I really do not understand why peopler using the Hasselblad announcement to bash Phase.

Here are some thoughts in no particular order.

Phase make great cameras and charge plenty for them. If they can continue to do that then more power to them.

Multi-shot is great technology and back when I started the difference between multi and single was night and day. These days the difference is subtle and depends a great deal on subject matter. Multi-shot is never going to be mainstream and I cannot see why Phase would want to divert resources to it, even though in the right circumstances it produces stellar results.

No, the H6D will not be a fully featured video camera, but for some of us the ability shoot video with the same camera and glass would be a nice proposition and certainly a benefit commercially, not some prosumer add on.

[Theodoros]

I really do not understand why peopler using the Hasselblad announcement to bash Phase.

Here some thoughts in no particular order.

Phase make great cameras and charge plenty for them. If they can continue to do that then more power to them.

Multi-shot is great technology and back when I started the difference between multi and single was night and day, these days the difference is subtle and depends a great deal on subject matter. Multi-shot is never going to be mainstream and I cannot see why Phase would want to divert resources to it, even though in the right circumstances it produces stellar results.

No the H6D will not be a fully featured video camera, but for some of us the ability shoot video with the same camera and glass would be a nice proposition and certainly a benefit commercially, not some prosumer add on.

None is bashing Phase... Read the O/P title?  To criticise the handicaps of a maker with respect to competition is not bashing... It's rather scepticism on what may harm MF generally (as it has happened in the past)... What is rather surprising is people trying to bash  Hasselblad for being better and cheaper at the same time... For a healthy market (any market - MF in this discussion) you need a wide base... The wider the base, the healthier the market... What is needed for a wide base is three things...

1. Price that makes equipment as accessible (to those that want it) as possible.
2. A very wide S/H product market with offerings many times multiple to new (that's why it's called "wide base")
3. Compatibility with as many applications as possible of that same market...

Let me give you an example... Lets use car industry for that example...
First, prices drop by each newer line and yet the product improves... Second, there is a huge base width... Third, BMW doesn't say "what if Mercendes makes 4WD vehicles - our customers don't need them"... they instead say, "if they make them, we can make them better"... Understand? Funboys have the logic of a funboy... they have a very unique logic with marketing too... It's not a very helpful logic to the MF market though, It's rather a dangerous one!

[sgilbert]

The word is "fanboy." 

[siddhaarta]

Speaking of DeLorean and Tesla: I have seen P1 always as something like a mixture between Avon and Maybach ... its a pimped up Mercedes S, but with a nice "concierge service" (as someone called it) included. And, like Avon, there are "photographic" friends which meet in PODAS workshops and recommend the latest products to each other. This is an old, very effective, marketing technique ...

It goes without saying that this concierge service and extra marketing effort has its (high) cost and I would only pay it, if I would also like to use it (which I personally do certainly not).

Until now, especially with the XF platform, P1 had an obvious technological lead over Hasselblad, the only real competitor from a system point of view: 100mp "full frame" Sony sensor, state of the art electronic platform, nice lenses from Germany, modern touch UI, state of the art software, fast central shutters speeds). As I see it, nearly ALL of this advantages have gone away from one day to another: same sensors, new software generation Phocus 3.0, much better central shutter speeds of 1/2000, state of the art electronic platform, nice touch UI. Worse, Hasselblad has even some advantages (tilt/shift without need to buy a tech system, dual card slots, video, analog backs, etc.) which might or might not be important to some potential buyers. Sure, P1 has also some advantages like 1/4000 shutter speed, earthquake warning, focus stacking without using Helicon, which also might or might not be important to some potential buyers. 

And then this aggressive price strategy from Hasselblad. As someone pointed out, it's the transparent UPGRADE proposal which is so attractive. If I would be interested in a 100mp sensor, I would buy tomorrow a used H3D or H4D for, say, 2.000-3000 USD/EUR and would trade it in. With that, the price difference between the H6D and IQ 100 is HUUUGHE. I could buy a bunch of 3-4 additional lenses and am all set with less money as for the P1 body alone. Somebody said, P1 also offers discounts when you trade in an old back. Problem is, you don't know as they make a big secret of it, …. and if you don't already have an old P1 back, its quite difficult to buy one on ebay (compared to Hasselblad at least).

Also I am not convinced that there is no price sensitivity in the MF market, the success of Pentax and the claimed Hasselblad sales increase with the "holiday discounts" tell another story. I would bet that Hasselblad, as soon as the upgrade program finishes, will lower the prices for the H6D in order to maintain the attractive price differential. If not, the price increase between the old H5D 50mp and the new H6D 50mp would be just too steep. 

So, to answer the initial question, P1, in my opinion, THIS TIME has to and will lower their prices in order to not loose substantial market share.

The Maybach manufacture, at least, ceased to operate since 2012 ….. I understand because this business model was not profitable anymore.

 

[BernardLanguillier]

As someone pointed out, it's the transparent UPGRADE proposal which is so attractive. If I would be interested in a 100mp sensor, I would buy tomorrow a used H3D or H4D for, say, 2.000-3000 USD/EUR and would trade it in. With that, the price difference between the H6D and IQ 100 is HUUUGHE.

Any idea how much an upgrade from a H3D-39 II to a H6D-100 would cost?

Thanks.

Cheers,
Bernard

[siddhaarta]

ProShop Germany sells a used H3D31 for 2.000 EUR. The trade-in price for the 100mp Hasselbald would be 21.000 EUR without VAT and 24.990 including VAT, plus the investment for the second hand body a total of 26.990 EUR.

This is very attractive.

[Christoph B.]

The Maybach manufacture, at least, ceased to operate since 2012 ….. I understand because this business model was not profitable anymore.

The Maybach was a luxury item. No real use for it. A PhaseOne and a Hasselblad are both cameras with which you (can) work to earn money. Big difference. And don't forget that Hasselblad were themselves in big trouble not too long ago.

Anyway I don't get why people get so excited by the price of something that's not even available right now and who knows what we'll see in two months time.

[Steve Hendrix]

I really do not understand why peopler using the Hasselblad announcement to bash Phase.

Here are some thoughts in no particular order.

Phase make great cameras and charge plenty for them. If they can continue to do that then more power to them.

Multi-shot is great technology and back when I started the difference between multi and single was night and day. These days the difference is subtle and depends a great deal on subject matter. Multi-shot is never going to be mainstream and I cannot see why Phase would want to divert resources to it, even though in the right circumstances it produces stellar results.

No, the H6D will not be a fully featured video camera, but for some of us the ability shoot video with the same camera and glass would be a nice proposition and certainly a benefit commercially, not some prosumer add on.

Someone asked me today why they hadn't seen me on LuLa lately, especially with the Hasselblad announcement. The fact is I've been busy. But I cleared my table a bit to take a peek and not much has changed. Real debate and discussion is rare, instead, there's a treat for fans of incoherent shouters pushing an agenda (sometimes odd agendas). And some posters insult end users for their "foolish" decisions.

I like Nick T's perspective. He's right - Phase One produces amazing, envelope-pushing photographic solutions. And so does Hasselblad, as evidenced by this latest announcement. Hasselblad does seem to be trying to dampen pricing a bit (just a bit), but $33K is still many times the pricing most users think they can pay (whether they truly can or not). Phase lists a higher price. They want more, and so far, they have been getting it. If someone is on the fence about one or the other, with regard to price, I would recommend they sit down and get pricing from a dealer for each system, especially if they are purchasing with trade in equipment.

Having sold multi-shot systems from the time they were 4 megapixel, 24mm x 24mm square sensors (uh oh, I just aged myself, but hey, I was really young then!), those who espouse the quality differences are correct - up to a point. At 4/6/11/16/22 megapixels the difference between single and multi-shot ranges from pretty staggering to substantial. With recently increased single shot pixel counts, which positively impact some of the deficiencies that multi-shot addresses, the urgency for using multi-shot capture has diminished greatly in the mainstream. And many prominent high end reproduction facilities and institutions have adopted high megapixel count single shot capture. I don't think these professionals are "fools" and think it shows a lack of respect for anyone here to say so. For these uses, is multi-shot an option to consider? Absolutely. Is it the only option worth considering? No.

I don't know if Phase One will ever turn to multi-shot capture as an option, but for now, their focus appears to be on single shot, where they have been immensely effective.

Hasselblad has announced first with 4k video. It will be interesting to see what the future holds for Phase One, in that regard. In the meantime, it is great to see Hasselblad come out with a really strong announcement. Rest assured that most of what these two companies produce is not a secret or great surprise from the other.


Steve Hendrix
CI

[siddhaarta]

I don't understand the argument of the availability in June.

Sure, P1 has an advantage until june, so what? Aren't we talking about the future move in pricing?

As I said, I could buy tomorrow an old H3D and make my preorder of the new H6D 100mp and will get it in June for the price announced. Leica users wait a whole year (S007) or more (M240) to get their cameras, Nikon D5 and D500 had to wait more than 2 months also.

And wasn't there the story of old P1 users who where not very amused as they had to wait longer for the new XF body than the so called "new customers"?

Also not all MF users are professionals, apparently the amateur group is increasing.

[siddhaarta]

Speaking of MF pricing and price sensitivity. As the big three Hasselblad, Leica and P1 are European companies, I would be curious to know if they adjusted their US-pricing in line with the exchange rate alterations (nearly 25% during the last 12 or so months).

I know that Leica reduced their prices considerably in the US but don't know about P1 or Hassi. This also would say something about P1 and Hassis idea of the price sensitivity of US customers.

[NickT]

Steve Hendrix

Great Post thanks Steve.

[abouho]

None is bashing Phase... Read the O/P title?  To criticise the handicaps of a maker with respect to competition is not bashing... It's rather scepticism on what may harm MF generally (as it has happened in the past)... What is rather surprising is people trying to bash  Hasselblad for being better and cheaper at the same time... For a healthy market (any market - MF in this discussion) you need a wide base... The wider the base, the healthier the market... What is needed for a wide base is three things...

1. Price that makes equipment as accessible (to those that want it) as possible.
2. A very wide S/H product market with offerings many times multiple to new (that's why it's called "wide base")
3. Compatibility with as many applications as possible of that same market...

Let me give you an example... Lets use car industry for that example...
First, prices drop by each newer line and yet the product improves... Second, there is a huge base width... Third, BMW doesn't say "what if Mercendes makes 4WD vehicles - our customers don't need them"... they instead say, "if they make them, we can make them better"... Understand? Funboys have the logic of a funboy... they have a very unique logic with marketing too... It's not a very helpful logic to the MF market though, It's rather a dangerous one!

You keep saying Hasselblad is "better". Have you actually used both systems? Do you own either? Have you preordered an H6D yet?

[hcubell]

Until now, especially with the XF platform, P1 had an obvious technological lead over Hasselblad, the only real competitor from a system point of view...As I see it, nearly ALL of this advantages have gone away from one day to another...Sure, P1 has also some advantages like.....earthquake warning....

He may be a fanboy (I sort of like funboy), but at least he has a sense of humor.

[razrblck]

Personally I'm glad we have all this choice in camera systems and on every price range as well. To each his own, right?

[Miyata610]

Anyway I don't get why people get so excited by the price of something that's not even available right now and who knows what we'll see in two months time.

June is only a few weeks away. Why should this matter, except to someone from the "must have now" generation.

Are Hasselblad particularly known for changing specs between taking an order and delivering a few weeks later?

[Christoph B.]

Yeah, about 10 weeks, that's a lot of jobs until then.

Who said anything about changing specs? I'm talking about how the camera and back will perform, reliability, stability, quirks, battery life,... All important aspects that you can't know beforehand. Even if you're a fanboy.

[synn]

The word is "fanboy."

Thank you.
The grammarazi in me is now content.

[Miyata610]

Yeah, about 10 weeks, that's a lot of jobs until then.

Who said anything about changing specs? I'm talking about how the camera and back will perform, reliability, stability, quirks, battery life,... All important aspects that you can't know beforehand. Even if you're a fanboy.

Seven weeks away. (Although I'm not sure which day in June it might be.)

Do people really get themselves in to a situation where they can't cope without a new system for a few weeks?

There is plenty of information about the H6 to help people start the decision making process. As you can see by many of the posts here that is certainly happening.

Your argument seems to be that this shouldn't be happening until June. I disagree. That's all.

[synn]

Seven weeks away. (Although I'm not sure which day in June it might be.)

Do people really get themselves in to a situation where they can't cope without a new system for a few weeks?

There is plenty of information about the H6 to help people start the decision making process. As you can see by many of the posts here that is certainly happening.

Your argument seems to be that this shouldn't be happening until June. I disagree. That's all.

I think those who have a lot invested in Phamiya will stick to phase and in Blad will wait for the H6D. Those on the fence will make their decision on what features are most important to them (Tru focus vs C1P etc.) and whether they can make up the additional cost of the P1 kit with enough work and so on.

Nobody is doomed and the world will go on, as always.