Pages: 1 ... 10 11 [12] 13 14 ... 27   Go Down

Author Topic: sRGB vs. Adobe RGB: New color management stand up comic  (Read 124399 times)

Rhossydd

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 3369
    • http://www.paulholman.com
Re: sRGB vs. Adobe RGB: New color management stand up comic
« Reply #220 on: August 25, 2014, 12:20:22 pm »

This group who will not go on record saying the answer to a simple question.  Will AdobeRGB images make better prints than an image captured in sRGB
I'll say YES.
That is assuming you're photographing something with a wider gamut than sRGB in the first place.

However if you persist with the ridiculous planned methodology of shooting something that won't show any difference anyway because the subject's gamut is only slightly larger than sRGB in one very small square, you'll just get a meaningless result.

Logged

digitaldog

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 20630
  • Andrew Rodney
    • http://www.digitaldog.net/
Re: sRGB vs. Adobe RGB: New color management stand up comic
« Reply #221 on: August 25, 2014, 12:21:59 pm »

If 100 labs are wrong, than it is a fact of life. Street-smart guys like Garry realize that and deal with such fact of life, right or wrong. Scientific Don Quijotes will instead launch a crusade against those 100 labs (or more likely thousands), trying to prove them wrong, mocking them, organizing press conferences, writing petitions, collecting signatures, etc. In the meantime, a street-smart guy will just send them a file with sRGB and move on with his life.
IF 2 of the 100 realized their mistake and stop, that's progress. I know you'd prefer to take the side of the ignorant or the misinformed and let it slide, it's easier on you. Probably because you're not an educator. There's no hope in helping Gary. There is a possibility that some of his followers or potential followers will not drink his cool aid. And that's progress, a good thing and something I'm happy to work towards.

Quote
Proven to whom? To those 1000 "religious fundamentalists" (or more like 100-200 million of them in this country)? You really believe that your scientific proofs will persuade them? If scientific facts and persuasion were so powerful, would we still have an overwhelming majority in this country and the world so religious?

You've missed the point again. First, this isn't subjective, it is fact based. It isn't about trying to convince liberals to become conservative or vise versa to affect a vote. It is about having people understand the scientific method and use it instead of being fooled and believing in nonsense. If we all behaved as you proposed, I have to wonder where mankind would be today in terms of it's understanding of so many subjects.

There are people like Gary who will never change their small minds to the facts and I can't do anything about them. They deserve to live in ignorance and maybe some bliss. There are lots of others who do want to know the facts of the situation and have just stumbled on a site like Gary's, not knowing the guy is polluting their brains with nonsense. With an open mind, some curiosity and a bit of work, they might make it over here and get the correct information. That's good for them, it's good for us all. Unlike you, I'm not going to give up on anyone who wants to learn.

As to why you think it is preferable to allow the less informed to stay less informed or worse, have their ideas polluted by a guy like Gary, I'm at a loss.
Logged
http://www.digitaldog.net/
Author "Color Management for Photographers".

garyfong

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 37
Re: sRGB vs. Adobe RGB: New color management stand up comic
« Reply #222 on: August 25, 2014, 12:22:43 pm »

If a photographer, using their new DSLR or Mirrorless camera, takes photos of the eiffel tower and wants to display them on the web, or make 5x7 prints, and that's as far as they are going to venture with their image use, should they use sRGB or AdobeRGB?  Is anybody here going to answer AdobeRGB?

If this person shoots in AdobeRGB and makes prints in AdobeRGB, will they look visibly better than an image taken all in sRGB space?

I'm running the tests and publishing them.  And Andrew Rodney says, if there are thousands of labs printing in sRGB, they're all wrong but Andrew is right.  And Will Crockett is wrong.  And Ken Rockwell is wrong.  Yet he cannot and will not say that an image shot in AdobeRGB and printed on AdobeRGB equipment will look visibly superior to the sRGB print.

You can send your color balls that were carefully managed to me (private me for the address) but is this straight from the camera?  I've said countless times - the video is to answer the question of why photographers complain of dull color prints as soon as they switch the color space from sRGB to AdobeRGB in the camera.  The illustrations I used in the video and the terms, "Muffin top", "Wide Rainbow" are meant for the person new to photography to understand.

Look at the pages and pages and pages of words that Andrew Rodney writes.  Does the consumer want to go through all of that technical training - to produce prints that even this forum admits that there is very little difference in output

That is the point of my video, and the upcoming video.  It is to show that while AdobeRGB is a wider space, in practice the benefits from working such a workflow gives minimal benefit if any.

Not one of you, not a single one, can say that AdobeRGB will make visibly better prints when taken straight from a camera file.  Not a single one of you can say it, that's why you say that my test will already be "rigged" or "flawed".  

I understand that Mr. Rodney will maintain that he's right and the rest of the world is wrong, til the end of his days.  He is not even a professional photographer.  Therefore, in practical terms for the practical photographer, all of this extra fuss is not worth the time invested in the training or even the output.
Logged

digitaldog

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 20630
  • Andrew Rodney
    • http://www.digitaldog.net/
Re: sRGB vs. Adobe RGB: New color management stand up comic
« Reply #223 on: August 25, 2014, 12:24:57 pm »

sRGB printer = a lab that uses a printer that assumes all files coming into it are in sRGB space or assignees one to them
Adobe RGB printer = a lab that uses a printer that can honor the embedded Adobe RGB space
No, that's NOT an sRGB or Adobe RGB printer. By the time the data gets anywhere near the printer, it's not either. Saying that it is, suggesting Gary (or you) are correct in this kind of language only illustrates lazy and ill defined understanding of the process.
Further, you can send those printers an output color space that was produced from ANY RGB working space. You might have to futz with a different front end that assumes incorrectly, sRGB, what Gary should have illustrated in his video.
Logged
http://www.digitaldog.net/
Author "Color Management for Photographers".

aaronchan

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 617
Re: sRGB vs. Adobe RGB: New color management stand up comic
« Reply #224 on: August 25, 2014, 12:27:57 pm »

If this person shoots in AdobeRGB and makes prints in AdobeRGB, will they look visibly better than an image taken all in sRGB space?

Seriously, WHAT THE HECK IS AdobeRGB prints?

Slobodan Blagojevic

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 18090
  • When everyone thinks the same, nobody thinks
    • My website
Re: sRGB vs. Adobe RGB: New color management stand up comic
« Reply #225 on: August 25, 2014, 12:28:43 pm »

I'll say YES.
That is assuming you're photographing something with a wider gamut than sRGB in the first place...

I would not be so sure about that Yes. I would say it is more likely to be a statistical tie. Here is why: those colors that are outside of sRGB will be printed more correctly from an Adobe RGB file, but will they be more pleasing? All that test participants would notice is that the colors are different. Whether they are better, more pleasing, etc. is rather subjective, and more likely than not the test would end up in a 50/50 split. Some people would like more saturated colors of Adobe RGB, some will not. In the sRGB print, colors outside of gamut will be clipped, but they won't disappear, leaving white spots on paper. They will be replaced by the nearest printable color. And the replacement might look even better to some viewers.

digitaldog

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 20630
  • Andrew Rodney
    • http://www.digitaldog.net/
Re: sRGB vs. Adobe RGB: New color management stand up comic
« Reply #226 on: August 25, 2014, 12:28:56 pm »

I'm running the tests and publishing them.  And Andrew Rodney says, if there are thousands of labs printing in sRGB, they're all wrong but Andrew is right.  And Will Crockett is wrong.  And Ken Rockwell is wrong.  Yet he cannot and will not say that an image shot in AdobeRGB and printed on AdobeRGB equipment will look visibly superior to the sRGB print.
One has nothing to do with the other. Yes, if you, or Ken, or Will say these are sRGB printers, you're all wrong. The gamut maps you continue to ignore prove that.
Quote
Look at the pages and pages and pages of words that Andrew Rodney writes.  Does the consumer want to go through all of that technical training - to produce prints that even this forum admits that there is very little difference in output
Do they want incorrect information like you've provided? I suspect not. The pages are simply more ammo to prove you haven't a clue about this subject.
Quote
I understand that Mr. Rodney will maintain that he's right and the rest of the world is wrong, til the end of his days.
Classic Gary. Not the rest of the world, mostly you. That you can't separate those two facts is further proof you should be totally dismissed.
Logged
http://www.digitaldog.net/
Author "Color Management for Photographers".

Slobodan Blagojevic

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 18090
  • When everyone thinks the same, nobody thinks
    • My website
Re: sRGB vs. Adobe RGB: New color management stand up comic
« Reply #227 on: August 25, 2014, 12:35:30 pm »

Seriously, WHAT THE HECK IS AdobeRGB prints?

Prints that come from an "Adobe RGB printer" as defined above: Adobe RGB printer = a lab that uses a printer that can honor the embedded Adobe RGB space

MarkM

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 428
    • Alaska Photographer Mark Meyer
Re: sRGB vs. Adobe RGB: New color management stand up comic
« Reply #228 on: August 25, 2014, 12:36:36 pm »

sRGB printer = a lab that uses a printer that assumes all files coming into it are in sRGB space or assigns one to them
Adobe RGB printer = a lab that uses a printer that can honor the embedded Adobe RGB space

No change in lighting, camera, color setting, exposure, no post production, no embedding of profiles. 

Seems to be yet another disconnect here, no?
Logged

digitaldog

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 20630
  • Andrew Rodney
    • http://www.digitaldog.net/
Re: sRGB vs. Adobe RGB: New color management stand up comic
« Reply #229 on: August 25, 2014, 12:36:56 pm »

I would not be so sure about that Yes. I would say it is more likely to be a statistical tie.
Since the testing parameters are wrong, at least as Gary defines them, it's ridiculous to even continue down this path which is just his idea of misdirection.
Look at the origin of this post and all the pages that have gone by. It is to discredit two video's that are fundamentally wrong about color.
Debating which color space is better can't be done without a firm understanding of the topic and without ridged rules as to how the test is conducted. None of this has happened. As such it's pointless to assume anything.
If you start with raw, if you shoot a scene that's gamut falls easily outside Adobe RGB (which you Slobodan asked about and where given a video to see how this is possible), with the right printer and properly handling, there WILL be a difference between using the two color spaces! Now comes subjectivity, which is 'better'? If half say one, half the other, so what? Further, as has been missed by you and Gary, how does this in any way change the misinformation on Gary's two previous videos? It doesn't. This print test is just misdirection from Gary, I'm surprised we are even biting at it. At first some of us actually did think Gary might want to make a new video based on sound color management practices using sound testing methods. Once he came up with the Color Checker idea and was told it wouldn’t fly due to it's gamut, but dismissed that key point, the discussion of a new video became pointless. Whatever he does will prove nothing other than he still doesn't understand nor can teach color management. That's the bottom line.
Logged
http://www.digitaldog.net/
Author "Color Management for Photographers".

Slobodan Blagojevic

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 18090
  • When everyone thinks the same, nobody thinks
    • My website
Re: sRGB vs. Adobe RGB: New color management stand up comic
« Reply #230 on: August 25, 2014, 12:46:15 pm »

Seems to be yet another disconnect here, no?

Mark, what I think is going on is the following: when Garry said "no embedding" he probably meant no specific, in-software, deliberate attempt by the photographer to embed a profile. However, in his experiment, he is going to shoot twice, once with his camera set to sRGB and then set to Adobe RGB, and then send those files, straight out of camera, with no postprocessing, directly to a lab.

digitaldog

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 20630
  • Andrew Rodney
    • http://www.digitaldog.net/
Re: sRGB vs. Adobe RGB: New color management stand up comic
« Reply #231 on: August 25, 2014, 12:46:34 pm »

Prints that come from an "Adobe RGB printer" as defined above: Adobe RGB printer = a lab that uses a printer that can honor the embedded Adobe RGB space
No, wrong, don't even try to suggest that's the case, it isn't. Again, by the time the data gets to the printer, it isn't any RGB working space. Again, the gamut maps which are measured from what the printers produce prove it. There is no such thing as an sRGB printer. Read the text by Stokes about what sRGB is. Don't fall into the trap Gary is leading you into, unless you wish to sound as incorrect about this topic as he is. Unless you want to call them sRGB/AdobeRGB/ProPhotoRGB/ColorMatchRGB/AppleRGB/BruceRGB?ECI/RGB_andallotherRGB_WorkingSpace printers. Dumb right?
So no matter what the printer's substrate, calibration, output behavior, it's an sRGB printer? Really Slobodan? Come on, I know you're a lot smarter about this topic than you let on by even trying to agree with Gary on this. Don't shot yourself in the foot with him.
Logged
http://www.digitaldog.net/
Author "Color Management for Photographers".

digitaldog

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 20630
  • Andrew Rodney
    • http://www.digitaldog.net/
Re: sRGB vs. Adobe RGB: New color management stand up comic
« Reply #232 on: August 25, 2014, 12:47:22 pm »

Mark, what I think is going on is the following: when Garry said "no embedding" he probably meant no specific, in-software, deliberate attempt by the photographer to embed a profile. However, in his experiment, he is going to shoot twice, once with his camera set to sRGB and then set to Adobe RGB, and then send those files, straight out of camera, with no postprocessing, directly to a lab.
Don't ignore what he said he's shooting that would completely invalidate the test.
Logged
http://www.digitaldog.net/
Author "Color Management for Photographers".

MarkM

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 428
    • Alaska Photographer Mark Meyer
Re: sRGB vs. Adobe RGB: New color management stand up comic
« Reply #233 on: August 25, 2014, 01:01:52 pm »

Don't ignore what he said he's shooting that would completely invalidate the test.

Yes, that really is the pièce de résistance of this whole enterprise. It's like trying to decide what the public likes best: prints from black and white files or prints from color. To decide we're going to shoot a photo of this grey card and have it printed…
Logged

Bryan Conner

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 539
    • My Flickr page
Re: sRGB vs. Adobe RGB: New color management stand up comic
« Reply #234 on: August 25, 2014, 01:08:52 pm »

 Will AdobeRGB images make better prints than an image captured in sRGB

Based on the information concerning the testing protocol and procedure, I will make a prediction:  quite possibly maybe.
Logged

Czornyj

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1948
    • zarzadzaniebarwa.pl
Re: sRGB vs. Adobe RGB: New color management stand up comic
« Reply #235 on: August 25, 2014, 01:16:26 pm »

It's like trying to decide what the public likes best: prints from black and white files or prints from color. To decide we're going to shoot a photo of this grey card and have it printed…

Touché!  ;D
Logged
Marcin Kałuża | [URL=http://zarzadzaniebarwa

Slobodan Blagojevic

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 18090
  • When everyone thinks the same, nobody thinks
    • My website
Re: sRGB vs. Adobe RGB: New color management stand up comic
« Reply #236 on: August 25, 2014, 01:23:47 pm »

Don't ignore what he said he's shooting that would completely invalidate the test.

I didn't do the test myself, so I do not know, but wouldn't the prints that were shot with AdobeRGB, yet printed as if sRGB look washed out overall, across all/most colors in the color checker?

digitaldog

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 20630
  • Andrew Rodney
    • http://www.digitaldog.net/
Re: sRGB vs. Adobe RGB: New color management stand up comic
« Reply #237 on: August 25, 2014, 01:24:45 pm »

I understand that Mr. Rodney will maintain that he's right and the rest of the world is wrong, til the end of his days.  He is not even a professional photographer.
Again another example for those coming here to understand Gary's misunderstanding of the subject, how his mind works or rather, lack thereof.
If you're not a professional photographer, then your disagreements are not valid, even when they are correct and based on sound color science. If I told Gary I was a color scientist (which I'm not), then that data point would be invalid because I'm not a professional photographer. What a dopey concept he has.

Next, he says I'm maintaining I'm right and the rest of the world is wrong. That's wrong of course. I'm stating he is wrong. He has a huge propensity to ignore facts. So the facts I'll provide will go over his head but hopefully not those who will come here to read about Mr. Fong's concepts. If we look at his initial video site and the comments, the overwhelming majority of posts state his concepts of color are wrong. There isn't a single person who's as yet posted, agreeing that Gary's ideas of color are correct. Not one. Now lets look at the facts here. 230 odd posts, not a single one I can find, other than from Gary that agrees with his points. In fact, just the opposite! So the whole world is wrong? No, Gary is wrong.

In Gary's mind my comments about his video are wrong because I'm no longer making a living shooting and because the overwhelming majority of people agree with me that his video is wrong. Talk about twisted logic. Can this guy dig himself any deeper in a hole? Well yes he can. And he will. And it will be quite enjoyable to see other's from over the web come and read his rants.
Logged
http://www.digitaldog.net/
Author "Color Management for Photographers".

digitaldog

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 20630
  • Andrew Rodney
    • http://www.digitaldog.net/
Re: sRGB vs. Adobe RGB: New color management stand up comic
« Reply #238 on: August 25, 2014, 01:30:52 pm »

I didn't do the test myself, so I do not know, but wouldn't the prints that were shot with AdobeRGB, yet printed as if sRGB look washed out overall, across all/most colors in the color checker?
IF Gary wanted to even consider doing the tests correctly, he'd capture raw. He refused to do that. The target he proposes to use is wrong. He'll probably handle the data wrong. I don't know why we continue to even guess what he'll get wrong until we see his video which I'm sure will be laughable.
 
He got his first two color management video's so wrong and that was before we even had an idea what he'd discuss. We have some idea of what he'll do in the new video. So until we see it, discussing it only plays into his misdirection efforts to keep us from slamming the misinformation in his first two videos.

As I and other's have said, if someone wanted to setup a testing process to evaluate the differences on a print using sRGB vs. Adobe RGB as working spaces to convert to an output space, Gary has constructed a test with as many incorrect parameters as possible.
Logged
http://www.digitaldog.net/
Author "Color Management for Photographers".

Slobodan Blagojevic

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 18090
  • When everyone thinks the same, nobody thinks
    • My website
Re: sRGB vs. Adobe RGB: New color management stand up comic
« Reply #239 on: August 25, 2014, 01:36:10 pm »

IF Gary wanted to even consider doing the tests correctly, he'd capture raw...

His audience does not shoot raw, so he is doing the test that mimics a real-world scenario for his audience. And you did not answer my question, btw.
Pages: 1 ... 10 11 [12] 13 14 ... 27   Go Up