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Author Topic: sRGB vs. Adobe RGB: New color management stand up comic  (Read 113114 times)

garyfong

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Re: sRGB vs. Adobe RGB: New color management stand up comic
« Reply #520 on: August 29, 2014, 08:54:22 am »

After one of Gary's earlier posts where he went on and on about having the Fuji technicians over to his lab almost on a daily basis to fiddle with the color response, I'm wondering why he didn't just linearize the printer, nail down the chemistry line and then make a good custom profile of the Fuji, rather than spend so much time and effort to try and squeeze and force that device into something sort of resembled sRGB. I mean, for a self proclaimed color management expert, I would have thought this would be obvious. Hell, I was making my own custom Frontier profiles for my local Costco long before Dry Creek was around, and they worked so well, the counter people always asked how I got the color so good the first time through with no test prints.

What you are talking about is testing the chemistry against a densitometer to see if the paper is coming across with no cast.  We would plot those values (what you call 'linearizing the printer).  This is something that has to be done every couple of hours.  It monitors the chemistry.  OMG this is so funny how you just said, "rather than spend so much time and effort to try and squeeze and force that device into something sort of resembled sRGB" - THAT'S FUNNY!  You are an expert on color, right?  Is it possible to take an sRGB file and "squeeze and force that into something sort of resembled sRGB."  So many color experts in one place giving so much accurate information here!

The Fuji people were there because my stock Frontier was too punchy.  We literally had to program a channel to increase midrange detail in the color channels and density.  This is as basic as brushing your teeth.  The whole Fuji had to be modified before we could take on portrait work.  That's why the engineers were there.  To literally reprogram the channels.  This is not something you could do if you didn't make the machine.  Maybe you could, maybe you should contact Fuji and offer them your expertise in color.

The conversation that I had with Mr. Rodney was this - he had called Will Crockett a liar.  I have the screen shots.  It is this simple.  I am in touch with the X-rite people.  If Mr. Crockett is an X-rite member, then calling Mr. Crockett a liar (discrediting him) is actionable.  What I said to Mr. Rodney was that if this is the case, I have offered to fund the litigation to bring this through to the end.  To those of you who saw my passion in the Mr. Tang case, we not only won the case for Mr. Tang, but we also had the attorney bar disciplined.

It will then be Mr. Crockett to determine if he wants to pursue a case.  If he does, I will fund it.

LuLa does have a large audience, as you can see by the number of views or the number of subscriptions my channel has received since this started .  The questions I addressed to regarding to the limited amount of influence some of these posters had for the photography world was directed to the posters, most of all Andrew Rodney.  I made calls with a lot of the top people in the industry trying to find out who he was, of the few who knew him, the response was words like, "stubborn, dinosaur, argumentative" etc.   So when I meant a limited audience, it was kind of referring to Mr. Rodney, who, as far as I can see, won't be teaching on a major platform convention for as far as I can see.

This community is uncohesive, because I have a lot of confused spectators writing me.  The consensus is this, "all I see is confusion and fighting".  I think the worst part of this thread was when I asked the group will the straight AdobeRGB be visibly better, and only one (relatively silent member) said, ok, I'll predict it will look better.  None of you said that, and the AdobeRGB did win.

When someone decides to seek damages in court, it doesn't make them crazy.  Or delusional.  If they were they would get thrown out of court.  We don't go in unless we know we'll win, and I haven't lost a case in 20 continuous years of litigation, including a federal jury trial.  I do this because when I see civil laws being broken to the detriment of a friend, and the friend can't fund the defence, I do it.

I know we should probably close the thread.  I have what I wanted, which is a voluminous "typed answer" to a question when I do my skypecasts on color management.  We will be doing a series in why people are disappointed with either of the color spaces, and addressing the controversy by using examples here, mostly the heated ones.  

In terms of my responses, in many times I should have counted to ten before typing.  This is the threads I pulled.  I said I thought a person was stupid, and that is how I respond to stupid people.  This is not something I would say to someone's face if they were sensitive or fragile.  But I would say it in person, to people who are, but think they're smart.  It's not just me typing.  I'd say these things to a person's face.

Lastly there were a huge number of eyeballs on the site, and subscriptions piked.  If some of those people think that once they are in, they get to see people beating each other up, that won't happen.  Our series of real-world file to output experiments are going to document what the camera retailing people will favor.  And then interviews with my friends and colleagues, the world's top photographers, like Gary Gorman, Eric Meola, Brian Smith, Jay Meisel, Robert Evans on their workflows.

This thread has really given me a ton of insight as to how deep this divide is (even within this forum) so it's our next video project.  It will be a short-lived one, because pro photographers are now fusioning into one camera, two roles (still/video) and for video, it's all sRGB (which I'll prove in another YouTube video).  
« Last Edit: August 29, 2014, 09:01:25 am by garyfong »
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garyfong

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Re: sRGB vs. Adobe RGB: New color management stand up comic
« Reply #521 on: August 29, 2014, 09:20:03 am »

But, based on your comments on the videos, especially the one about greens not clipping, I think you actually believe (or believed) these models accurately represent the world. I can't imagine why else you would defend them so staunchly.

You will see in one of my comments, - what should I do, make the center hump of the rainbow larger?  When I've gone to the iconic "gamut map" and try to do the same concept (to show clipping) everybody gets lost.  Far easier as an intro to clipping, to show a simple term, like rainbows, muffin tops, etc. to get the point across in the typical 4 minute YouTube video.

That's why I am leaving the flat green-centered rainbows.  If any of you made a video for beginners, showing them in real world (meaning, most images are shared uploaded by a huge majority) and then the next group gets wet process prints (WHCC, Bay Photo Lab, Millers) to finally the small number of people who shoot in RAW, export to or capture in AdobeRGB have to know what they are doing from that point. 

All of you have tried to mischaracterize the video and twist it around.  Someone here said that I'm all about staying in sRGB.  No, the first thing I said was AdobeRGB is better, but only on equipment that can handle it.  And the first sentence in the video description says, "one of the hotly debated topics is sRGB and AdobeRGB. 

You workflow specialists are not going to wake up the minds going to your color workshops to people who buy Digital Rebels.  They aren't going to care about all the things that you do for your enhanced results.  And they are happy with what they get.

You are not happy with what they get because they won't put in the time to get the expertise on color management.  Neither do any of the working pros I know.  I've called so many of them - who say, "I just shoot in RAW and fix in Lightroom".  When it comes to which color space, they just give the files to the client in many cases.

I knew this was going to be hot, because the three groups will never understand each other.  It's like having a Tea Party Convention in San Francisco.  It's going to be hot.  You coloratti's will never understand why top professional photographers don't adopt your workflow methods, and top professional photographers will not understand what you try to accomplish here.

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Schewe

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Re: sRGB vs. Adobe RGB: New color management stand up comic
« Reply #522 on: August 29, 2014, 09:27:26 am »

The conversation that I had with Mr. Rodney was this - he had called Will Crockett a liar.  I have the screen shots.  It is this simple.  I am in touch with the X-rite people.  If Mr. Crockett is an X-rite member, then calling Mr. Crockett a liar (discrediting him) is actionable.  What I said to Mr. Rodney was that if this is the case, I have offered to fund the litigation to bring this through to the end.  To those of you who saw my passion in the Mr. Tang case, we not only won the case for Mr. Tang, but we also had the attorney bar disciplined.

It will then be Mr. Crockett to determine if he wants to pursue a case.  If he does, I will fund it.

Well, I have friends at X-Rite too and if Mr. Crockett is a Coloratti, he won't be for long given the lack of respect he showed describing his involvement with those kind of things…frankly I thought what he said was an insult to all the people involved in the Coloratti program. I have been a member (and am still involved although I choose not to brag about it) and I know all the color geeks involved and I've never heard Mr. Crockett mentioned–with the exception perhaps on topics of ridicule.

Oh, BTW, I you want to fund the lawsuit, I'll be there to help and fund Andrew's defense if he needs it. I seriously doubt he'll need it though. Anybody can sue anybody but actually coming to court and winning is not for the faint of heart.

In any event, if Mr Crockett is not a current member of the Colorotti, then using the name and association is deceptive at best and is doing neither he nor X-Rite any favors…at this point I suspect X-Rite would not want to have anything to do with him.
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digitaldog

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Re: sRGB vs. Adobe RGB: New color management stand up comic
« Reply #523 on: August 29, 2014, 10:10:38 am »

I'm sorry but this thread really needs to be closed down now.  It no longer is about color management but has badly morphed into personality issues.  Whether someone has threatened to sue someone else or has defended a photographer accused of some malfeasance is irrelevant.  We are here to discuss photography and it's certainly clear that the issue of sRGB v AdobeRGB has been resolved for all of us who are longstanding members of LuLa.  I find this latest turn in the comments disturbing and I will not be party to schadenfreude.  Andrew, do the right thing now and lock this one down.

Couple points:

1. I still don't feel that I should pull the plug on the thread which as OP I can. It still feels like censorship.
2. If anyone doesn't wish to partake or continue, there are ways to stop notifications.
3. There are still posts from people on the subject of color management coming in. Case in point is Peter's (pfigen) post about his experience with Fuji printers and profiles. IF as Gary states, this is an sRGB printer, Peter wouldn't have needed to build a profile, he'd just send sRGB to the printer. That he was able to build a profile and could share the gamut plots and show it against sRGB (something I did earlier), would continue to dismiss Gary's mistaken understandings on how these printers really work.
4. Michael, Chris or Kevin can lock the thread of course. PM them if you really, really feel it needs to be done. We'll all get an email that person locked the thread.

Lastly, if Gary is going to be silly enough to take legal action, anything he wrote and continues to write here could be a useful paper trail! As I said in the past, it's a useful paper trail for anyone here who wishes to point out to others his fallacies and misunderstanding of color (among other items), and what others have suggested (and I agree) is a severe personality issue.
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Bart_van_der_Wolf

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Re: sRGB vs. Adobe RGB: New color management stand up comic
« Reply #524 on: August 29, 2014, 10:15:58 am »

You will see in one of my comments, - what should I do, make the center hump of the rainbow larger?

A simple demonstration of proper color conversion between sRGB and AdobeRGB (1998) might do the trick (see attachment).

Cheers,
Bart
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digitaldog

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Re: sRGB vs. Adobe RGB: New color management stand up comic
« Reply #525 on: August 29, 2014, 10:24:49 am »

OMG this is so funny how you just said, "rather than spend so much time and effort to try and squeeze and force that device into something sort of resembled sRGB" - THAT'S FUNNY!  You are an expert on color, right?
Yup and a photographer. Just one more that has come to dismiss you Gary.
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The Fuji people were there because my stock Frontier was too punchy.
And a good profile would have addressed that. At the time you probably didn't know what an ICC profile was, I'm not sure you do today based on your writings.
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If Mr. Crockett is an X-rite member, then calling Mr. Crockett a liar (discrediting him) is actionable.
Ah, so now it's if? Why don't you share with his the screen shots, love to see them.
Here's what I wrote that you deleted:
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Based on the first 16 seconds take anything heard here with a grain of salt.
One thing appears to be true, Crockett is no X-rite Coloritti despite the claim: 
https://www.xrite.com/custom_page.aspx?PageID=367
Not on X-rite's site. 
On the other hand, yours truly is! 
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LuLa does have a large audience, as you can see by the number of views or the number of subscriptions my channel has received since this started.
That's about the first factual statement you've made in ages!
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 I made calls with a lot of the top people in the industry trying to find out who he was, of the few who knew him, the response was words like, "stubborn, dinosaur, argumentative" etc. So when I meant a limited audience, it was kind of referring to Mr. Rodney, who, as far as I can see, won't be teaching on a major platform convention for as far as I can see.
This is as silly as the 'your not a photographer so my inaccurate rants on color must be correct'. Truth be told, I've been working nearly full time since 2008 with two major companies on color with a partner that is vastly more financially and mentally stimulating then talking to a group of conventioneers. That was so last century Gary.
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I asked the group will the straight AdobeRGB be visibly better, and only one (relatively silent member) said, ok, I'll predict it will look better.  None of you said that, and the AdobeRGB did win.
Because the group here is pretty smart and wouldn't get trapped into making the kinds of silly statements you do after they understood the idiotic testing methodology you proposed. They still do.
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I know we should probably close the thread.
We? You don't have that influence. You can of course move on, you've shot yourself in both feet pages ago.
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I have what I wanted, which is a voluminous "typed answer" to a question when I do my skypecasts on color management.
IOW, you got material for your next stand up comedy act.
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In terms of my responses, in many times I should have counted to ten before typing.
Or the profanity of the video you made that was referenced here. At one point I thought your head would explode.
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digitaldog

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Re: sRGB vs. Adobe RGB: New color management stand up comic
« Reply #526 on: August 29, 2014, 10:35:55 am »

When I've gone to the iconic "gamut map" and try to do the same concept (to show clipping) everybody gets lost.
This is classic Gary Fong. He really thinks he's super smart and his audience is dumb. They get lost, it is their fault. It isn't that Gary rambles on unscripted to talk about the subject incorrectly, his audience is in his opinion as expressed above, is too stupid to hear a good teacher properly instruct them! I pointed this out on his video, he said I said his audience is dumb. He'll say that about the above statement (Andrew Rodney said you are all dumb). I didn't, I said Gary treats them that as if they are and they are not dumb. Classic inability to comprehend English (now he will call me a racist again).

It's all about Gary unless there is any lick of criticism of which he deserves, then it's all about the other person.

The reason so many people who properly teach color management use the 'gamut map' is because of the utter butchering of the topic illustrated by Gary in his now famous comedy act! It is the correct way to teach about gamut. Just about anyone can understand the concept if the person teaching it isn't Will Crockett or Gary Fong and speak in a language the audience can understand. It isn't rocket science by far and not a signal human on this planet was born understanding it. And yet, lots do understand it, unless they have been to video's by Gary or Will's (and a few others who believe them). And that is what is so sad, people don't deserve to be treated as idiots and given misinformation when it is the person teaching them that is acting like the idiot.
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Christopher Sanderson

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Re: sRGB vs. Adobe RGB: New color management stand up comic
« Reply #527 on: August 29, 2014, 11:23:08 am »

Further discussion of the photography-related topics of this thread is welcomed in a new thread.

However this thread has reached its end and is now locked.
« Last Edit: August 29, 2014, 12:06:10 pm by Chris Sanderson »
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