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Author Topic: sRGB vs. Adobe RGB: New color management stand up comic  (Read 113818 times)

MarkM

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Re: sRGB vs. Adobe RGB: New color management stand up comic
« Reply #500 on: August 28, 2014, 02:55:04 pm »

 How many times have I explained that the use of analogies like, "wide rainbows" or "muffin tops" were used to help people make a simple distinction about which to choose?  How many times have I explained that changing the monitor profile was an illustration to show what happens when wide gamut is expressed in narrow gamut equipment?  

Gary, you wouldn't need to point it out at all if you handled criticism differently. You are essentially saying that you have introduced inaccuracy in the name of simplification to help people. Fine — I don't think it's necessary in this case, but it happens all the time. However, when someone points out the inaccuracy, what's your response? It's to tell them they are wrong and know nothing about the subject.  For example:

Quote
You have absolutely no idea what you are talking about. Cyan green getting clipped? those colors are in the center of the spectrum. Why do people who know nothing about photography try to act like experts?

If you had simply said, 'yes, thanks I know, you are right, this is a simplification to make it very easy for everyone,' there would be no issue. 

But, based on your comments on the videos, especially the one about greens not clipping, I think you actually believe (or believed) these models accurately represent the world. I can't imagine why else you would defend them so staunchly.

Now that's it's quite clear how wrong you and your simplifications are, what's your response? To call people names like 'colorbator.' It's like being in grade school again, where if you were bad at math you simply called the people who understood it names like 'nerd' rather than trying to get help. It's a classic defense mechanism; most of us grow out of it. 
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digitaldog

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Re: sRGB vs. Adobe RGB: New color management stand up comic
« Reply #501 on: August 28, 2014, 03:02:06 pm »

Like many guys here I'm not a colour scientist like Graeme Gill or Andrew Rodney
I'm no color scientist! Don't even play one on TV. My degree is in photography not that it's something Gary would care nor needs to consider. I do know a few color scientists and try to get some of their knowledge to rub off on me.

I recall years ago having lunch with Bill Atkinson and Thomas Knoll. No question I was dumbest person at that table! I think I understood maybe 5% of what they were talking about. A good friend, Karl Lang is a color scientist, tech edited my book. He came out to my home and spent two weeks going over all the text and ripping it to pieces. So glad he did. The book is far from prefect, we found some mistakes after first printing and tried to fix them for the 2nd.
« Last Edit: August 28, 2014, 04:18:39 pm by digitaldog »
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Christopher Sanderson

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Re: sRGB vs. Adobe RGB: New color management stand up comic
« Reply #502 on: August 28, 2014, 03:16:01 pm »

And with that, perhaps we are done here.

Let me know by PM should you wish it otherwise

EDIT - OK I have unlocked it again but refrain from calling people names - please - kids?

« Last Edit: August 28, 2014, 04:17:56 pm by Chris Sanderson »
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digitaldog

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Re: sRGB vs. Adobe RGB: New color management stand up comic
« Reply #503 on: August 28, 2014, 04:19:22 pm »

And with that, perhaps we are done here.

Let me know by PM should you wish it otherwise

EDIT - OK I have unlocked it again but refrain from calling people names - please - kids?
Thank you, apologies to all.
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Kevin Raber

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Re: sRGB vs. Adobe RGB: New color management stand up comic
« Reply #504 on: August 28, 2014, 05:43:26 pm »

I believe we have taken this thread pretty far at this point.  We are not in the habit of locking thread or deleting messages as long as everyone stays civil and constructive with their posts.

The number of views and replies on this thread show the interest in the topic and the type of audience Luminous-Landscape has.  I am very surprised that Gary has replied the way he has and that he couldn't accept that there may be another way to look at what he claimed.  There are a lot of knowledgeable people on this forum that make it a great place for all of us to learn and get help when needed.  I know Andrew and just spent a week with Jeff Schewe teaching a workshop.  There is no question that these guys know their stuff.  We have all learned a lot from them and use the principles of color management to make fine images.

There have been a number of interesting comments and name dropping in some of the posts.  I do believe readers here are smart enough to figure things out in that regard. In the end the proof is in the pudding as they say.

Maybe it is time we move on to other matters.

Kevin Raber




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supercurio

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Re: sRGB vs. Adobe RGB: New color management stand up comic
« Reply #505 on: August 28, 2014, 06:12:47 pm »

To the Administrators, thanks for caring and having followed that without freaking out.

Gary used his account here to show he knows he's better than anyone else and respond with violence to anyone not aligning with his perception of the reality.
I'm concerned by what Andrew said tho regarding to the message Gary Fong sent him, threatening to attacking him in justice.
I would not be surprised if those threats extend to this website in some ways.

I would question if it's a good idea or not to allow him to continue provoking troubles and trolling here (really don't know what's the best solution)

If it's hard to take him seriously on color science, his nuisance capability probably is tho, so please all of you take care, we're not dealing with a reasonable and well balanced person here.
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digitaldog

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Re: sRGB vs. Adobe RGB: New color management stand up comic
« Reply #506 on: August 28, 2014, 06:21:23 pm »

I'm concerned by what Andrew said tho regarding to the message Gary Fong sent him, threatening to attacking him in justice.
He did but I doubt he has a leg to stand on.
Quote
I would question if it's a good idea or not to allow him to continue provoking troubles and trolling here (really don't know what's the best solution)
But Gary should have the option to post here like anyone else. At this time, he hasn't stepped into the "yelling fire" in a crowed theater mode.
Quote
If it's hard to take him seriously on color science, his nuisance capability probably is tho, so please all of you take care, we're not dealing with a reasonable and well balanced person here.
In his PM to me about how he'll sue me and never let me off the hook, he told me: Google "Nelson Tang". Look what i did to the other end of that party.
I found this link with a video that may explain whether we're dealing with a reasonable and well balanced person:
http://petapixel.com/2012/07/24/wedding-photographer-threatened-with-300000-lawsuit/
It is a tad alarming. And yet the message has merit.
None the less, there has be some excellent comments, questions and answers in all these pages, with some new users to LuLa. It got a bit testy and I'm sorry for pouring some gas onto the fire. It shows why this is the best forum of it's kind anywhere on the web.
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supercurio

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Re: sRGB vs. Adobe RGB: New color management stand up comic
« Reply #507 on: August 28, 2014, 06:46:21 pm »

I found this link with a video that may explain whether we're dealing with a reasonable and well balanced person:
http://petapixel.com/2012/07/24/wedding-photographer-threatened-with-300000-lawsuit/
It is a tad alarming. And yet the message has merit.
Yes there's a pattern here: Gary starts with a good intention: support a fellow photographer who's bullied and victim of an injustice.
Then it drifts into violence and overall insanity.

I saw another YouTube video where he develops similar themes
Although this time explains how he was the victim of blatant copyright infringement.
Probably where he developed a deep rooted hate for those "people on the internet" (expert or whatever).

I suppose that now that he's in an environment where litigation becomes part of the routine and he's used to get advice from lawyers, frustrations with those "self-proclaimed experts on the internet" gets likely to become more legal action (and work for his lawyers).
I've seen that before unfortunately.
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Schwenny

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Re: sRGB vs. Adobe RGB: New color management stand up comic
« Reply #508 on: August 28, 2014, 07:30:01 pm »

Ok, so I have been following this with some scary amusement since it started. You all have to excuse me since English is not my first language! So anyways I have been following Gary on Facebook for some time. He's seem reasonable and have made a few post that I found interesting. But mostly it's been some stuff about his family life which is great for him but hasn't really interested me. BUT a year or so ago he put this thing about the lawsuit against Nelson Tang and I was really impressed in the way he took a stand and helped that poor photographer against this stupid lawyer. Gary gained a lot of respect in my eyes then to be honest. He's posted a few other things on his Facebook and I thought he was a really cool and honest guy just trying to help his fellow photographers out etc!   BUT then all of a sudden the other week he posted a weird thing on his Facebook about those stupid color nerds that had commented on his YouTube video. So of course I had to check it out... I saw all the responses that Andrew Rodney made about don't take it personal I'm just trying to help you etc, I saw ALL OF THEM! But this nice and honest guy that I got to know thru his Facebook page just turned in to an EVIL and cursed everybody that didn't agree on him. I couldn't believe that the guy (Gary Fong) I got to know thru all these nice posts got so nasty and didn't want to listen whatsoever. And then when I read that Gary wants to sue Andrew and brings up Nelson Tang???? What does the Nelson Tang case have to do with this? To be quit honest this whole thing on LuLa has turned in to a mess  and as much as I agree on Andrew Rodney's points, Gary won't listen whatsoever to what you say since he despise you and sorry to say probably hate you by now. But the rest of you people that know's your S H I T, he won't care because he think's by now that somebody is out on a vendetta (Sp?) to him. (When I write it turned in to a mess I don't agree with myself since I learned tons of stuff, but I guess most of you understands what I mean... If not PM me and I explain). So anyways I guess what I'm trying to say that I thought Gary Fong was a nice guy but I can't believe how he treated some people both here and on his YouTube! And if it wasn't for Mr Fong himself I wouldn't have followed this thread at all. I have been on the LuLa forums mostly reading for some years but as most of us know there's a worlds outside also so I'm sorry to say I'm not here so often anymore. I've had a very useful for me conversation years back with Andrew here years ago. I have been to Antarctica with Michael, Kevin and Jeff Schewe a few years ago so by saying that I'm sure I'm now officially on the Gary Fong Black List. But Gary you know what? I had a lot of respect in you a few weeks ago, I don't really care who's right or wrong here but the way you respond to people that tried to help you............. Sorry Gary I have no words! You're so full of yourself, and you should be honestly for a lot of things that you have done! But please don't treat the people that try to help you like S H I T. I know that Chris wanted to close this tread and maybe my post isn't appropriate but I just had to tell you guys how I've seen it as a lurker here and on Gary's Facebook. I'm sure that Gary is a nice guy and means the best but I can't believe how this thing turned in to this ugly thing! And believe me I learned a lot from this thread! I reminds me to log in more often! A a European I shouldn't even say what I thought of the Will Crockett video... It's been really fascinating to check in every day! But I think that if Gary is really going to sue Andrew he should really beforehand look in the mirror and ask himself about the difference with the Nelson Tang case. I read about his help with Nelson Tang and by Gary pulling that card here to sue Andrew is so far and different so all my respect that I actually did have for Mr Gary Fong is all gone. What you helped Nelson Tang with was great! And one more time I don't freaking care who's right or wrong but if you're on that high horse.... I don't mean to say this as a mock of anybody, there have been stupid thing's said from other people as we all know! The scary for me is that all of us I guess are adult people in our prime age and some of us behave like freaking kids. So for Chris I just say ARGHHHHHHHHH...
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digitaldog

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Re: sRGB vs. Adobe RGB: New color management stand up comic
« Reply #509 on: August 28, 2014, 07:38:06 pm »

And believe me I learned a lot from this thread!
That makes it all worthwhile, thanks.
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Schwenny

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Re: sRGB vs. Adobe RGB: New color management stand up comic
« Reply #510 on: August 28, 2014, 07:50:27 pm »

Andrew you have all of my respect! I learn't a lot here on this actual thread! You don't know me but we have met years ago briefly in NYC at Photo Expo. I have met the other guys on LuLa in Antarctica. I'm a nobody but I honestly do appreciate all the work and effort all of you put in to helping the rest of us! By that said I honestly did have a lot of respect for Gary Fong a few weeks ago but he's got a big uphill to gain it back and I honestly think he's able to sit back and think a little bit and gain that respect back! He's a very smart guy so I'm sure that we all just have to give him some time to come back in a "different mode".

And one more time English is NOT my first language! We should all remember that on these forums that all of us aren't native in this language. I see that people read in things to words and sentences that just might be "wrong" translation from our native language...
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digitaldog

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Re: sRGB vs. Adobe RGB: New color management stand up comic
« Reply #511 on: August 28, 2014, 07:56:51 pm »

And one more time English is NOT my first language! We should all remember that on these forums that all of us aren't native in this language. I see that people read in things to words and sentences that just might be "wrong" translation from our native language...
Good point! And as I said to Slobodan, I've got a huge respect for those of you that can speak more than one language. After a year of high-school German, I couldn’t order a beer in that language to save my life!  ;D
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Slobodan Blagojevic

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Re: sRGB vs. Adobe RGB: New color management stand up comic
« Reply #512 on: August 28, 2014, 08:00:59 pm »

Good point! And as I said to Slobodan, I've got a huge respect for those of you that can speak more than one language. After a year of high-school German, I couldn’t order a beer in that language to save my life!  ;D

Luckily for you, it is pronounced the same and spelled just a little bit different ("bier"), so your life would be ok in Germany (i.e., saved) ;)

Jim Kasson

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Re: sRGB vs. Adobe RGB: New color management stand up comic
« Reply #513 on: August 28, 2014, 09:09:17 pm »

A good friend, Karl Lang is a color scientist, tech edited my book. He came out to my home and spent two weeks going over all the text and ripping it to pieces. So glad he did. The book is far from prefect...

Perfect! You did that on purpose, right? I love it.

Jim

pfigen

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Re: sRGB vs. Adobe RGB: New color management stand up comic
« Reply #514 on: August 29, 2014, 04:10:41 am »

Apparently Gary even deleted my relatively benign, no personal attacks comment explaining where he went awry in his video. I guess that shows you the measure of the man, but y'all can make up your own mind.

After one of Gary's earlier posts where he went on and on about having the Fuji technicians over to his lab almost on a daily basis to fiddle with the color response, I'm wondering why he didn't just linearize the printer, nail down the chemistry line and then make a good custom profile of the Fuji, rather than spend so much time and effort to try and squeeze and force that device into something sort of resembled sRGB. I mean, for a self proclaimed color management expert, I would have thought this would be obvious. Hell, I was making my own custom Frontier profiles for my local Costco long before Dry Creek was around, and they worked so well, the counter people always asked how I got the color so good the first time through with no test prints.

Oh well. This entire thread is one of the most disappointing ones I've read in some time.
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Simon Garrett

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Re: sRGB vs. Adobe RGB: New color management stand up comic
« Reply #515 on: August 29, 2014, 05:20:12 am »

Oh well. This entire thread is one of the most disappointing ones I've read in some time.

I'm afraid it's basic human weakness that we're all capable of clinging tenaciously to wholly implausible beliefs:
  • when our livelihood depends on believing it
  • when we've invested personal credibility into that belief
  • When our peer group believes it, and those saying otherwise come from a group we don't like ("they're not even professional photographers")
  • and on and on and on

It's extraordinary the lengths even intelligent people will go (often subconsciously) to avoid confronting false beliefs. 
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Tony Jay

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Re: sRGB vs. Adobe RGB: New color management stand up comic
« Reply #516 on: August 29, 2014, 05:55:25 am »

I'm afraid it's basic human weakness that we're all capable of clinging tenaciously to wholly implausible beliefs:
...
It's extraordinary the lengths even intelligent people will go (often subconsciously) to avoid confronting false beliefs. 
Simon, I agree with your list however I am not so sure that Gary is exercising that much intelligence and, in addition, I also think that he has other agendas that are driving him that make any distinction between right/wrong, fact/fallacy, prudent/risky etc irrelevant.

Basically, for Gary, the issue has never been about colour management in the slightest.
Yesterday, the mask slipped and the real Gary Fong evidenced himself in a very frank couple of outbursts and in an email to Andrew Rodney threatened him in a rather ham-fisted fashion.

Tony Jay

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TonyW

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Re: sRGB vs. Adobe RGB: New color management stand up comic
« Reply #517 on: August 29, 2014, 06:25:09 am »

I'm afraid it's basic human weakness that we're all capable of clinging tenaciously to wholly implausible beliefs:
  • when our livelihood depends on believing it
  • when we've invested personal credibility into that belief
  • When our peer group believes it, and those saying otherwise come from a group we don't like ("they're not even professional photographers")
  • and on and on and on

It's extraordinary the lengths even intelligent people will go (often subconsciously) to avoid confronting false beliefs. 

Well said sir  :)
I think once one finds themselves in this situation it is very difficult to accept the embarrassing conclusion that they have been wrong and is made worse IMO if these beliefs have persisted over many years.  This is not a new argument and I remember seeing similar on DPreview about 10 years ago with good answers being given by someone called Beki about the sRGB Adobe RGB debacle.

I believe what we are seeing here is termed Confirmation Bias.  In this case the tendency is for the individual to search for and interpret information in a way that confirms their belief to the exclusion of all evidence to the contrary.  People will seek out and prefer any sources that affirm their existing beliefs even with overwhelming evidence showing these beliefs to be false.  Sometimes going to extraordinary lengths to prove their case
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Alan Goldhammer

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Re: sRGB vs. Adobe RGB: New color management stand up comic
« Reply #518 on: August 29, 2014, 07:31:47 am »

I'm sorry but this thread really needs to be closed down now.  It no longer is about color management but has badly morphed into personality issues.  Whether someone has threatened to sue someone else or has defended a photographer accused of some malfeasance is irrelevant.  We are here to discuss photography and it's certainly clear that the issue of sRGB v AdobeRGB has been resolved for all of us who are longstanding members of LuLa.  I find this latest turn in the comments disturbing and I will not be party to schadenfreude.  Andrew, do the right thing now and lock this one down.
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Tony Jay

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Re: sRGB vs. Adobe RGB: New color management stand up comic
« Reply #519 on: August 29, 2014, 07:34:41 am »

I'm sorry but this thread really needs to be closed down now.  It no longer is about color management but has badly morphed into personality issues.  Whether someone has threatened to sue someone else or has defended a photographer accused of some malfeasance is irrelevant.  We are here to discuss photography and it's certainly clear that the issue of sRGB v AdobeRGB has been resolved for all of us who are longstanding members of LuLa.  I find this latest turn in the comments disturbing and I will not be party to schadenfreude.  Andrew, do the right thing now and lock this one down.
Fair enough by me

Tony Jay
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