sRGB vs. Adobe RGB: New color management stand up comic

[Tony Jay]

Have I got this right? Gary is going to conduct a test where he shoots the same target with in camera JPEGs set to sRGB and AdobeRGB. Then send them to a pro lab requesting only sRGB images. Knowing they will treat any image as if it were sRGB. Basically assigning it a colorspace much like changing the display as in the video.

So Gary is going to "prove" that if you don't know what you are doing you should just stay with sRGB. That was never contested. But Gary can say that he was right, just look at the dull colors. No one here is going to change their mind, Gary hopes it all blows over and we all just wasted our time.

Ridiculous isn't it.
What is even more ridiculous is that Gary has no idea how ridiculous it is.

Tony Jay

[Czornyj]

This is a common misunderstanding among photographers who make c-prints in mini labs, that mostly use kind of device link profile conversion from sRGB to emulsion profile as default, so the results from AdobeRGB (or any colour space other than sRGB) are awful. Take QSS 37/38xxHD, Chromira, Lambda or profiled Frontier running in PD mode, and the whole theory goes haywire.

[ripgriffith]

No one here is going to change their mind, Gary hopes it all blows over and we all just wasted our time.

My point, exactly: you have all just wasted your time.

[Czornyj]

My point, exactly: you have all just wasted your time.

Will Crockett finally removed his revelations about colour spaces from his website, so there's always a hope

[garyfong]

Have I got this right? Gary is going to conduct a test where he shoots the same target with in camera JPEGs set to sRGB and AdobeRGB. Then send them to a pro lab requesting only sRGB images. Knowing they will treat any image as if it were sRGB. Basically assigning it a colorspace much like changing the display as in the video.

So Gary is going to "prove" that if you don't know what you are doing you should just stay with sRGB. That was never contested. But Gary can say that he was right, just look at the dull colors. No one here is going to change their mind, Gary hopes it all blows over and we all just wasted our time.

No.  I am going to Capture in sRGB and print in sRGB, then capture in AdobeRGB and print in AdobeRGB.  Same camera, same light balance, same exposure, same light source, same printer.  Just two different gamuts.   I'm also going to do one in AdobeRGB and print in sRGB.  Trust me, I know I'm not going to change anybody's mind here.  I'm trying to help the photography enthusiast, and the way I'm going to do it is show them, using both workflows, real world results - and let the public vote on which one is the best.

Using those results, I'm going to do a detailed video on the heated debate of AdobeRGB and sRGB.  I am here to take quotes from responses so I can address them in the video.  I say let the public decide if there is a huge debate.

I'm not here to convince you all - you all enjoy what you are doing immensely and appear to be quite proud of your accomplishments.  I'm not going to change anybody's minds.  This is for the DSLR/Mirrorless consumer. 

[garyfong]

Ridiculous isn't it.
What is even more ridiculous is that Gary has no idea how ridiculous it is.

Tony Jay

Read the test again Tony Jay.  Nobody said the output was going to be sRGB.  It'll be AdobeRGB capture to AdobeRGB output, sRGB capture to sRGB output, and we will let the public decide.  No change in lighting, camera, color setting, exposure, no post production, no embedding of profiles.  Straight out of the camera to print device.  Same camera.  One variable.

I don't think it's ridiculous.  I think it will be a great way for people who want to make a choice between the two to help them decide.

You all do not seem confident that AdobeRGB is going to smoke sRGB in the results.  Why not?  Isn't what this is all about?  All of this is so that the buying public not get misled down the sRGB only path?

If you all are right, you have nothing to worry about. 

[garyfong]

My point, exactly: you have all just wasted your time.

I don't hope it all blows over, or you don't know me very well.  This is great information for me.

Your comments are being collected by us to address in a documentary style YouTube.  If I wanted it to blow over, I would remove the video and not be here.

I know I'm not going to convince any of you.  But why aren't you all welcoming the test?  If I stick to an all-AdobeRGB path from camera to AdobeRGB print - it is going to blow away the sRGB print right?

I have heard nobody predict that it will.  Who here will go on record and say that the AdobeRGB test will show a vastly improved color than the sRGB test.  Why not make your own test?  You can then send your prints to me, and I'll put it up in my public sample.  In fact, that's a good idea.  Give us your best shot, but also make one in sRGB to sRGB print.  Send us the file too.

[ErikKaffehr]

I have done that, using Bill Atkinson's test target. Some fields were separated in Adobe RGB but in sRGB. The obvious differences were in the bluish greens. With correctly managed colours the differences were small between the prints.

Best regards
Erik

No.  I am going to Capture in sRGB and print in sRGB, then capture in AdobeRGB and print in AdobeRGB.  Same camera, same light balance, same exposure, same light source, same printer.  Just two different gamuts.   I'm also going to do one in AdobeRGB and print in sRGB.  Trust me, I know I'm not going to change anybody's mind here.  I'm trying to help the photography enthusiast, and the way I'm going to do it is show them, using both workflows, real world results - and let the public vote on which one is the best.

Using those results, I'm going to do a detailed video on the heated debate of AdobeRGB and sRGB.  I am here to take quotes from responses so I can address them in the video.  I say let the public decide if there is a huge debate.

I'm not here to convince you all - you all enjoy what you are doing immensely and appear to be quite proud of your accomplishments.  I'm not going to change anybody's minds.  This is for the DSLR/Mirrorless consumer. 

[garyfong]

With correctly managed colours the differences were small between the prints.

Thanks Erik. 

[aaronchan]

Dear to all,

I am sorry, I have been working with inkjet printer for quite a while, but am not too familiar with the RGB printer such as lightjet/noritsu.
When we work with inkjet printer, we first calibrate and profile it. Then we submit an image, Adobe RGB, sRGB or whatever RGB it is embedded with it. Then select the proper printer ICC and rendering intent, let's say relative colormetric. then the color engine will map the out of gamut color, if there's any within the image, to the printer icc printable range. Then it starts to print.

Here is the question:

Gary Fong keep saying he will print an srgb embedded image with a sRGB printer. What exactly is sRGB printer? I just don't get it.
I thought calibration and profiling is to make the printer to present color in an accurate and authentic way with it's strength, but not to limit within a specific working space. Press printer might be a different process such as G7 or Fogra.

Hope someone can answer my question.

Thanks
Aaron

[Czornyj]

I don't hope it all blows over, or you don't know me very well.  This is great information for me.

Your comments are being collected by us to address in a documentary style YouTube.  If I wanted it to blow over, I would remove the video and not be here.

I know I'm not going to convince any of you.  But why aren't you all welcoming the test?  If I stick to an all-AdobeRGB path from camera to AdobeRGB print - it is going to blow away the sRGB print right?

I have heard nobody predict that it will.  Who here will go on record and say that the AdobeRGB test will show a vastly improved color than the sRGB test.  Why not make your own test?  You can then send your prints to me, and I'll put it up in my public sample.  In fact, that's a good idea.  Give us your best shot, but also make one in sRGB to sRGB print.  Send us the file too.

I did such test countless times on on various Noritsu/Agfa/Fuji/Durst/Chromira models, and have a drawer full of results on Fuji DP2/Kodak Endura supra emulsions with all sorts of surface finish, so please excuse if I won't be holding my breath.

What you're still (intentionally or not) missing is that it's not about sRGB vs AdobeRGB - it's all about misleading, unprofessional and ignorant way you're incompetently trying to explain the subject on YT.

[garyfong]

I did such test countless times on on various Noritsu/Agfa/Fuji/Durst/Chromira models, and have a drawer full of results on Fuji DP2/Kodak Endura supra emulsions with all sorts of surface finish, so please excuse if I won't be holding my breath.

What you're still (intentionally or not) missing is that it's not about sRGB vs AdobeRGB - it's all about misleading, unprofessional and ignorant way you're trying to explain the subject on YT.

This whole discussion is about AdobeRGB vs sRGB.  If your opinion is the last video is misleading, unprofessional, etc. then this video will have as only the information that was gleaned from the tests.  Camera to print, staying in their respective color spaces, and put out for the public to vote.  Will they say, "I can't really tell" or will they say, "AdobeRGB is much better"?

I still haven't heard anybody going on record saying that the AdobeRGB is going to win.  Just a bunch of snipes off topic.

[Simon Garrett]

Read the test again Tony Jay.  Nobody said the output was going to be sRGB.  It'll be AdobeRGB capture to AdobeRGB output, sRGB capture to sRGB output, and we will let the public decide.  No change in lighting, camera, color setting, exposure, no post production, no embedding of profiles.  Straight out of the camera to print device.  Same camera.  One variable.

I don't think it's ridiculous.  I think it will be a great way for people who want to make a choice between the two to help them decide.

You all do not seem confident that AdobeRGB is going to smoke sRGB in the results.  Why not?  Isn't what this is all about?  All of this is so that the buying public not get misled down the sRGB only path?

If you all are right, you have nothing to worry about.  

This test is virtually certain to produce misleading results, because you are not embedding profiles.  

That's like saying "the temperature is 20 degrees, but I'm not telling you whether that's in Fahrenheit or Celsius".  The accuracy of that depends entirely on whether the person hearing guesses correctly which temperature scale you're using.  In the US, most people would assume you're talking of a rather chilly temperature, but in Europe most people would assume you mean a much warmer temperature.  

Most print labs assume sRGB if there's no profile (and in fact most ignore embedded profiles and assume sRGB come what may), so your test is rather loaded: the sRGB image will be printed correctly and the Adobe RGB image won't.  If you're using your own printer, again it will probably assume sRGB if you strip out the profile, so the Adobe RGB version will be printed incorrectly.  . 

It's still perfectly good advice to say to people that don't want to get into colour management "just stick to sRGB".  

If the purpose of your demo is to say "most labs screw up with Adobe RGB, especially if you strip out the profile so they haven't even a chance of getting it right" then why not say that?

[digitaldog]

No one here is going to change their mind, Gary hopes it all blows over and we all just wasted our time.

But look what we've gained here in these few pages, introduction to the community of a new stand up comic! Based on just these pages of text, we now have a prefect advertising vehicle for Gary's new video on color management. Case in point, here's the latest marketing piece I found:

New, from the master of color management comedy, Gary Fong, comes the feel bad about color management movie of the summer!  You’ll laugh, you’ll cry, then you’ll cry again when you consider the pain and confusion new users to digital imaging will have inflected on them after watching this masterpiece of misinformation.

The video has unbelievable effects; if you thought the move Runaway Train had a great train wreck, wait till you see the newest Fong video! Watch today and comment on his YouTube network and you will be entered to win a bumper sticker and pin with Gary’s new slogan:

Don’t know what sRGB is? Just use it!
and
Chromaticity diagram, we don’t need no stinkin Chromaticity diagram!

In less then a week on the YouTube circuit, the reviews are in! Here is some of the critical feedback from the JUST THE FIRST PAGE of Luminous Landscape color management forum:

RH:I first saw that one a few days ago, and it was good for a laugh. A nice mix of context-free sweeping generalizations, factual inaccuracies, conflations of different factors, and misguided folksy non-remedies for good colour.

SC:Oh wow that was painful to watch.
Textbook colorspace explained wrong if we needed another example.

MM:Watching this wreck feels a little dirty — like rubbernecking at a highway accident.

Cz:Exactly my feelings - and the whole rest was even worse, so far beyond stupid! It was a pure color management horror.

SG:This man deserves a medal. He has boldly gone where no man has gone before.  Or wanted to.  He has plumbed new depths.  I thought I had heard and read every possible misunderstanding on colour that a sentient creature could possibly hold, but I was wrong! 

Not getting enough Fong is wrong video content? Rumor is he’s working on another color management extravaganza on printing with sRGB and Adobe RGB (1998). Who will win? It is sure to be another masterpiece of miscommunicating, misunderstandings and malicious misdirection. You’ll be on the edge of your seat as Gary has done his homework on this production, asking the LuLa forum for advise on the testing and like the true artist he is, completely disregarding it. At least that’s the rumor. It’s sure to be another hilarious video with production values exceeding $3.98 with that innovative picture in picture video of the master himself, in super cool monochrome rendering. Cause who needs color?


Rated R for Ridiculous. Contains scenes of blatant misinformation and confusion. No one under the age of 95 who doesn’t know what sRGB is will be allowed to see the video without accompaniment of an adult or child who has dedicated 10 brain cells more than Gary Fong on the topic of color management. View at your own risk. Unfortunately not void let alone void where prohibited. Best viewed under the influence of narcotics.

Legal notice. Luminous Landscape and it’s members are not affiliated with Gary Fong, Gary Fong productions or the Gary Fong Flat Earth Color Management organization and do not condone, endorse or profit from his endeavors in the production of color management science fiction.

[garyfong]

This test is virtually certain to produce misleading results, because you are not embedding profiles.  
Most print labs assume sRGB if there's no profile (and in fact most ignore embedded profiles and assume sRGB come what may), so your test is rather loaded: the sRGB image will be printed correctly and the Adobe RGB image won't.  If you're using your own printer, again it will probably assume sRGB if you strip out the profile, so the Adobe RGB version will be printed incorrectly.  . 

Wrong.  I'm taking it to a commercial lab who will print it the AdobeRGB file in AdobeRGB output.  The profile will come straight out of the camera, so this can be a direct test.  Capture in output staying in their color spaces.  

I've yet to hear anybody say that they are confident that this test will produce a win for AdobeRGB.  Stop saying I'm going to rig the results.  Assuming that it goes straight from camera to same color space, "should" AdobeRGB win the test?

[garyfong]

But look what we've gained here in these few pages, introduction to the community of a new stand up comic! Based on just these pages of text, we now have a prefect advertising vehicle for Gary's new video on color management. Case in point, here's the latest marketing piece I found:

New, from the master of color management comedy, Gary Fong, comes the feel bad about color management movie of the summer!  You’ll laugh, you’ll cry, then you’ll cry again when you consider the pain and confusion new users to digital imaging will have inflected on them after watching this masterpiece of misinformation. ... [/i][/size]

Instead of mocking and poking fun, how about going on the record and saying that you predict that an AdobeRGB captured image printed with AdobeRGB output is going to win over the sRGB to sRGB?  Stop throwing in all these things about the test being rigged, this will be real world images, using a simple workflow. 

Andrew Rodney - will the AdobeRGB print look better?  Or not?

[garyfong]

Can I hear from at least one person that the AdobeRGB print is going to print better (or even 'should' print better?)  As it is right now, the video will say that I couldn't get one person from this forum to go on the record and say that it was going to win the contest.

Straight from camera to output.  sRGB to sRGB, AdobeRGB to AdobeRGB.  What will print better?

[digitaldog]

Gary Fong keep saying he will print an srgb embedded image with a sRGB printer. What exactly is sRGB printer? I just don't get it.

Don't try, Gray's again confused. I tried to help him understand there is no such thing. He keeps using incorrect language such as it'll be AdobeRGB capture to AdobeRGB output, sRGB capture to sRGB output. The guy is totally confused or simply can't write what he thinks is going to happen.

Gary, if you want sRGB to sRGB output, that's output to an emissive display, nothing more. Same with Adobe RGB (1998). That you keep repeating the incorrect language indicates you don't understand the topic sufficiently to even begin such a test OR you're deliberate in misdirection as to what you'll do such you can produce a video with redetermined results to suite your flat earth theories. Either way, give up. Not a single person here is taking you seriously, not one in terms of this idea for a new video. You've shot yourself in the left foot already, now you're holding a large caliber revolver towards the right foot and pressing harder on the trigger. The idea you propose is nonsensical and has no merit. No matter how many times you try to explain it, it's equally nonsensical. Clearly you have no aim of learning anything new in this test, it's flawed from the start.

Gary, why do you continue to post here that results in nothing more than making yourself look so foolish?
Do you realize the more you write, the more ammo anyone has to show others you don't have a clue about this subject? Clearly you're not here for education or advise. What's the motive other than looking like a fool?

[digitaldog]

Instead of mocking and poking fun, how about going on the record and saying that you predict that an AdobeRGB captured image printed with AdobeRGB output is going to win over the sRGB to sRGB?  Stop throwing in all these things about the test being rigged, this will be real world images, using a simple workflow. 

Andrew Rodney - will the AdobeRGB print look better?  Or not?

You don't get it Gary, it doesn't matter. It will not erase the errors of your previous two videos. It will only add more ammo to prove you don't understand the topic.
And Gary, you're mocking yourself. I'm simply holding a mirror up for you to see but not only are you color blind, you're totally blind to the facts.

[garyfong]

an sRGB printer is the most common wet process printer available to the public.  This is RA-4 paper and chemistry, the kind you would find in most commercial labs.  Ask any lab owner, call any lab in town, ask them if they print in sRGB or AdobeRGB and they will give you a firm answer.

I used to run the lab at Pictage, Inc., the largest online pro photo lab in the U.S. before we sold it.  We had thousands of professional photographers, so I know what sRGB is.  We also offered archival hextone prints, so I know what color profiling is.

I think you can tell by the cheap shots here who is spreading misinformation.  Simply call up any lab, ask for the printer, and ask if they print in sRGB or AdobeRGB.  They will tell you one or the other.  They're not going to say, "sRGB doesn't exist".  

And then remember what Rodney Andrew gave as an answer.  I'm recording all of them.  Use that to see if he is credible or not.