You wait years for CMOS backs to arrive, and then... Disappointment.

[david distefano]

For as long as I can remember (and I had my first home computer in the early-80's), a decent performing PC has cost around $1500, and an exceptional one, $5-10k.

It's ludicrous to compare their relative price/performance ratio over time, and totally irrelevant to compare them with pretty much any other consumer product, because Moore's law simply doesn't apply.

why because you say so. why is it irrelevant. it is nothing but technology. as all technology has improved prices have come down. why is this product different from other consumer products. and don't say because mf is a small market. it is a small market because of the artificially high prices. mf and large format were a much bigger market when film was used and mf could be just as large with realistic prices for the product. explain to everyone that a product, mfdb, that has a sensor that runs about $1000 should sell for 30k.

[torger]

that a product, mfdb, that has a sensor that runs about $1000 should sell for 30k.

Well, digital came and MF shrunk. MF digital was extremely small to start with when technology was new, very small volume products, thus very high prices. The quality of the smaller formats increased, today to a point that prints made from a high resolution DSLR is close to 4x5" large format film in resolution. In the film days larger format meant more resolving power, but when you get almost 4x5" quality out of a DSLR today, who needs more? Not many.

MF became a niche market, and you get to pay development costs for backs that sell a few hundreds or thousands. And the business model works, very well for Phase One it seems. So why change?

Well, I too hope for a change, I often talk about amateur landscape photography as market waiting for affordable backs, but it's not likely to happen, not with the current list of players at least.

[pedro39photo]

so. why is it irrelevant. it is nothing but technology. as all technology has improved prices have come down. why is this product different from other consumer products. and don't say because mf is a small market. it is a small market because of the artificially high prices. mf and large format were a much bigger market when film was used and mf could be just as large with realistic prices for the product. explain to everyone that a product, mfdb, that has a sensor that runs about $1000 should sell for 30k.

The lack of other brands pushing down the prices. competition...competion

[Nick-T]

I'm curious, do people go to the Porsche forums when a new model is announced to complain about the pricing? Perhaps they do.

Bottom line for a pro is that the price is irrelevant if you can get a return on investment. I can still remember the stunned look on my bank manager's face when I asked him for $30K for a 6 megapixel back some 13 years ago.
That pack paid for itself in about 14 months.

From a business perspective if a new system can generate more/better work that will make you more money then go for it.
If you cannot see the return on investment then don't invest, put the money into your portfolio instead, but I can't see why complaining on the forums helps your business...

Nick-T

[LKaven]

Even the most expensive MF sensor is well under 1000 Dan… Even the most expensive 24x36mm sensor is no more than 100 nowadays…

I don't think these are accurate at all.  You say this with some assurance.  Do you have a source? 

[eronald]

I'm curious, do people go to the Porsche forums when a new model is announced to complain about the pricing? Perhaps they do.

Nick-T

AFAIK quite a few people are MF users. They want to complain? It's on topic, and they have a perfect right to make their opinions politely known.
And btw, a Porsche Boxster or Macan is roughly in the same price range as a Phase back these days.

Edmund

[pedro39photo]

I'm curious, do people go to the Porsche forums when a new model is announced to complain about the pricing? Perhaps they do.

Nick-T

I am afraid that there is more tecnology in a new 20.000$ toyota car, that in a new DMF system, and they dont sell new porsches with the same chassis of a 10 years old model.
If you saw a new car model lauch with all exact the same specs year after year with just more more speed you dont see complains in the forums?

[Doug Peterson]

Its a shame the prices of DMF with no huge leaps in technology. In the last 8 years we just saw small  upgrades in technology and re-branding, re-brandig

P1
2008: P45+
2011: IQ180
2014: IQ250

Canon
2008: 5DII
2012: 5DIII
2014: Still 5DIII

Nikon
2008: D3X
2012: D800
2014: Still D800

I'm not saying Canon and Nikon haven't made improvements - they have. I'm just saying that "no huge leaps in technology" doesn't seem to apply to the P+ --> IQ1 --> IQ2 leap that Phase One has made in that time, either in absolution or relative to the same period in Canon/Nikon.

Of course you're entitled to your view, and clearly if you're frustrated then the improvements have not effectively targeted the areas you find important. But I can tell you when I put a P, P+, IQ1, and IQ2 back on the table it sure feels like a lot of progress to me.

[eronald]

Doug, lay that Phamiya on the table next to a Canon 1Dx and smile
My impression is that as a body the Canon is slightly better.
I've never heard anyone complain about the *recent* top pro Nikon and Canon bodies. The files are what they are, but the bodies are something else.

The Phase backs are expensive, but everyone agrees they are impeccable.
Now when it comes to the Phamiya, I am not the only one who considers it a mediocre object, compared to dSLRS and even comparedd to the Leica or the Rollei (and Hassy) who show what can be done for camera and lens even with European MF R&D investment resources.
If you disagree, please tell me one thing the Phamiya does better than any of the above, apart from the fact that it takes a Phase back.

 
Edmund

P1
2008: P45+
2011: IQ180
2014: IQ250

Canon
2008: 5DII
2012: 5DIII
2014: Still 5DIII

Nikon
2008: D3X
2012: D800
2014: Still D800

I'm not saying Canon and Nikon haven't made improvements - they have. I'm just saying that "no huge leaps in technology" doesn't seem to apply to the P+ --> IQ1 --> IQ2 leap that Phase One has made in that time, either in absolution or relative to the same period in Canon/Nikon.

Of course you're entitled to your view, and clearly if you're frustrated then the improvements have not effectively targeted the areas you find important. But I can tell you when I put a P, P+, IQ1, and IQ2 back on the table it sure feels like a lot of progress to me.

[Doug Peterson]

If you disagree, please tell me one thing the Phamiya does as well, apart from the fact that it takes a Phase back.

I honestly find the DF+ to be a perfectly capable body. It lacks some sex appeal, and I'm looking forward to something new-from-ground-up as much as anyone else, but to me the DF+ represents exactly what it is: the best possible refinement of the original Mamiya 645. It's not revolutionary, and it doesn't feel as ahead of the competition as the IQ or IQ2 backs (funny, Phase is already on the IQ2, but I still think the IQ would be the leading back by a wide margin if it weren't for the IQ2) but it's perfectly capable.

Some great aspects of the DF+:

• Flash Sync Speed up to 1/1600th
• Takes wonderful Schneider LS lenses
• Has built in FP shutter so takes a huge list of legacy glass including very inexpensive Mamiya non D glass which is an excellent value for someone starting an entry level kit
• Take a vertical grip which has built in wireless flash sync

Will the P1 system benefit when the body is on the same ahead-of-the-curve level as the backs and lenses? Sure.

I'd also agree the Canon bodies have improved markedly in many areas, but they are also, IMO ripe for a complete ground-up rethink. A 5D III has several major improvements over a 5D but it is still basically an improved 5D.

[eronald]

I honestly find the DF+ to be a perfectly capable body. It lacks some sex appeal, and I'm looking forward to something new-from-ground-up as much as anyone else, but to me the DF+ represents exactly what it is: the best possible refinement of the original Mamiya 645. It's not revolutionary, and it doesn't feel as ahead of the competition as the IQ or IQ2 backs (funny, Phase is already on the IQ2, but I still think the IQ would be the leading back by a wide margin if it weren't for the IQ2) but it's perfectly capable.

Some great aspects of the DF+:

• Flash Sync Speed up to 1/1600th
• Takes wonderful Schneider LS lenses
• Has built in FP shutter so takes a huge list of legacy glass including very inexpensive Mamiya non D glass which is an excellent value for someone starting an entry level kit
• Take a vertical grip which has built in wireless flash sync

Now tell me something it does better than the competition.

Frankly, I'm happy to be out of MF for the moment, because that means I don't have to carry that thing and get angry at it. It's like  doing creative writing on a computer when you hate the keyboard and screen -

When I was a journalist, all my colleagues, and I hated the PCs. People kept explaining to us that they were "as good", but we still all bought Macs for our own use, and intrigued to manage to get them in the office. And it is true that the PCs are as good as the Macs, but for some reason the Macs are more fun.


Edmund

[gerald.d]

why because you say so. why is it irrelevant. it is nothing but technology. as all technology has improved prices have come down. why is this product different from other consumer products. and don't say because mf is a small market. it is a small market because of the artificially high prices. mf and large format were a much bigger market when film was used and mf could be just as large with realistic prices for the product. explain to everyone that a product, mfdb, that has a sensor that runs about $1000 should sell for 30k.

Because it's a fatuous straw man.

Moore's law is what fundamentally drives computer performance. It is only applicable to transistors on an integrated circuit.

[pedro39photo]

Doug Peterson, please there no new change in the DMF for the last years like the 5D mark II and the D800

The 5D mark II bring the live view and change the movie industry with the HD video....forever....
The D800 bring the best sensor technology in digital sensors...you saw several professionals photographer change DMF to 35mm because o this model.

The mamiya 645AF was a leap, the hasselbald 500 series was a leap,the mamiya ZD dslr but that was long long time ago.

I love DMF Doug, but its sad for me to just see the news of another sensor, another lcd...etc
Its time for a " Black Magic" or a " RED " cameras...in the DMF industries...a game changer

Just a emotional statement i know that Phase One its a great brand, and they keep pushing ther systems, but please give me a "black magic" DMF with a 10.000$

Lets Keep Calm, and make pictures.

Best Regards Doug, you are one of the best supports in this area.

Pedro

    

[Doug Peterson]

If you saw a new car model lauch with all exact the same specs year after year with just more more speed you dont see complains in the forums?

I'm sorry, I'm not a car expert. But aren't most car releases nearly identical compared to the previous year, but with a few minor feature changes/improvements and a few fixes/improvements to whatever issues were getting the most warranty repairs the previous year?

The IQ250 is a very different back than the IQ140 (I'm taking that as closest in the "last year's model" way). It can shoot three stops higher at full resolution, is 50mp rather than 40mp (minor, but welcome), includes 24fps live view, long exposures, wireless review/control. For those who wanted mid-to-high ISO it is FIVE times higher resolution (50mp vs. sensor+ mode on an IQ140).

Anyway, it's revolutionary for what I shoot, when I shoot (wedding photography). And it's revolutionary for the people who have been calling in to get in line for a demo.

[pedro39photo]

Doug you have a point there, yes sometimes a small improvement its a great leap for a workflow to someone.
I never discus this passion topics because i am a low profile person, but yes its frustration to me never see the DMF in the last years push the biggest advantage points. Camera feel, viewfinder, and DOF.

Its sad but its true, 20 years ago anyone in photography, amateur or profissional or just a police...could identify that a hassy 500cm or a mamiya 645 was in fact a photo camera.
Today the DMF its a niche so small that in the field working with a H3D sometimes photographers ask me what its that?? this say very very much about the industry.

And its sad for me, because i dont really understand why he have to buy a used DMF camera for 5000$ to have a entry in this beautiful photgraphic medium.

my best regards Doug
Pedro

[synn]

Now tell me something it does better than the competition.

I am curious to see some of the exceptional work you have produced with the much superior competition after ditching the primitive Phamiya.
After all, it was the DF that was holding you back from creating a masterpiece, right? At least that's what I gather from the above posts...

[Theodoros]

I'm sorry, I'm not a car expert. But aren't most car releases nearly identical compared to the previous year, but with a few minor feature changes/improvements and a few fixes/improvements to whatever issues were getting the most warranty repairs the previous year?

The IQ250 is a very different back than the IQ140 (I'm taking that as closest in the "last year's model" way). It can shoot three stops higher at full resolution, is 50mp rather than 40mp (minor, but welcome), includes 24fps live view, long exposures, wireless review/control. For those who wanted mid-to-high ISO it is FIVE times higher resolution (50mp vs. sensor+ mode on an IQ140).

Anyway, it's revolutionary for what I shoot, when I shoot (wedding photography). And it's revolutionary for the people who have been calling in to get in line for a demo.

So… it's for wedding photography after all… Heck, I think I'll stick to D4 for that, open the aperture 2 stops wider to get the same Dof and lower ISO down a couple of stops too for the same exposure… I guess the IQ 250 will beat that…. Well, those who wouldn't bet on that, could save the change. Maybe could even spend the "change" to some XQD cards and shoot some extra frames, could even bring along a D800E (as a spare) if had any "change" left...

[eronald]

I am curious to see some of the exceptional work you have produced with the much superior competition after ditching the primitive Phamiya.
After all, it was the DF that was holding you back from creating a masterpiece, right? At least that's what I gather from the above posts...

Actually, the 35mm cameras get me my everyday clean-in focus realistic ISO family and travel imagery when I want it. Obviously my images are not of interest to a great photographer such as you, but I can invite you if I do a show again. I guess taking my own pix of my kid is still cheaper than hiring you to do it

One really interesting thing about the P45+ was that I had a couple of samples, and then at one point I was lent a P45 while the back was being recalibrated. And the P45 was incredibly sharp and had incredibly good color, compared to my own back and the other P45+ I had used. I mean the P45+ had good resolution and good color, but it was never over-sharp. The P45 was simply in another league. I always wondered if some optical component eg. IR filter had changed between the two models.

Edmund

[rainer_v]

I love DMF Doug, but its sad for me to just see the news of another sensor, another lcd...etc
Its time for a " Black Magic" or a " RED " cameras...in the DMF industries...a game changer

Just a emotional statement i know that Phase One its a great brand, and they keep pushing ther systems, but please give me a "black magic" DMF with a 10.000$

Lets Keep Calm, and make pictures.

Best Regards Doug, you are one of the best supports in this area.

Pedro

    

lets see if not sony is on the way to make some changes in the game. they started with APS and the nex ,  they gave nikon a one year exclusivity with their ( really advanced ) 36mp ff sensor, after this year they brought out their own camera with the same resolution but still more advanced sensor. their new optics made by zeis are nothing less than spectaculous. and this is where the music plays : in the optics !
it seems like there are some people really thinking how to make cameras and searching new ways,- and it doesnt look at all as if this are doing the big old camera players as leica, canon, nikon and so on.  not to speak about the mf manufactors. i cant see any ideas which go really forward here, small increases ok,- and even this sometimes i doubted.  ... i think its more that tehy are trying not to fall too much behind making a living at first from rich amateurs which believe in the "you get what you pay for it" rule.
 lets see how long sony will give phase one some exclusivity, i could imagine that  they would not developed a mf sensor without using them as well, seeing the energy which they put in the camera business in the last few years.

[synn]

Actually, the 35mm cameras get me my everyday family and travel imagery when I want it. Obviously my images are not of interest to a great photographer such as you, but I can invite you if I do a show again.

I am but a mere grain of sand on this vast beach, but images are the ONLY thing of interest to me. As they say, the bullshit stops when the JPEG drops.
An invitation to your prestigious event might be too much to ask for; what with all the blue chippers hanging around and all that. But surely, a web gallery is not impossible in the year 2014 AD?