You wait years for CMOS backs to arrive, and then... Disappointment.

[torger]

I would be surprised if Hasselblad's CMOS is not cheaper, as Hasselblad's stuff generally is a little bit cheaper than Phase One's. But then again they did mention multi-shot in the press release, and if there's only a version with multishot it can be more expensive. As far as I understand the wording in the press release it will be one version without and one version with multishot though, and anything other would seem strange.

In one scenario the price difference could be quite large; Phase One has chosen to value this back almost as much as a full-frame CCD. Maybe Hasselblad makes a different decision and price after sensor size and put it somewhere inbetween the current H5D-40 and H5D-50. Concerning feature set I think that would be the most logical thing to do, for a back without multishot. With multishot it becomes a different story.

[Steve Hendrix]

Apple is still a great company, but their business model has encountered difficulties lately as depicted in this article, which says " Now, the trend-setting company is losing ground to rivals that offer what Apple has stubbornly refused to make: smartphones with lower prices and larger screens than the iPhone."

Could the same thing happen to PhaseOne once the Japanese enter the MFDB market in earnest?

Bill

It could be that Apple positioned themselves as a disrupter, as a "we can do it better" (much better) company. The danger is the market they entered is a commodity market - music players, phones. I feel that if Phase One or Hasselblad tried to engage in lower pricing, ala Pentax, meaning approaching top end 35mm price points, that they would be putting themselves in the same precarious position with tons of competitors.

Perhaps Apple is re-considering this for their next move. Many expected an entry into TV, but the competition there is brutal, there are poor competitors but also really good ones. Just like the 35mm and smaller digital capture market.


Steve Hendrix
Capture Integration

[eronald]

At some point Olympus and Co will release a firmware update for the anti-shake in-body stabilization that allows multi-shot. As soon as they've run out of other easy to implement "features".

Edmund

[yaya]

At some point Olympus and Co will release a firmware update for the anti-shake in-body stabilization that allows multi-shot. As soon as they've run out of other easy to implement "features".

Edmund

$5 says they'll never do it 

[Steve Hendrix]

Is the PhaseOne guarantee on new backs now 'world-wide' or is it still region-specific ?

bump ?

Manoli -

As far as I know, from the first it has been available for any region, though there may be differences in the regional implementation. Since we're based in the USA, I can't attest to that from a hands-on perspective.


Steve Hendrix
Capture Integration

[eronald]

$5 says they'll never do it 

I'm willing to bet that Sony have a patent cross-licensing deal with Hassy

Edmund

[Steve Hendrix]

I would be surprised if Hasselblad's CMOS is not cheaper, as Hasselblad's stuff generally is a little bit cheaper than Phase One's. But then again they did mention multi-shot in the press release, and if there's only a version with multishot it can be more expensive. As far as I understand the wording in the press release it will be one version without and one version with multishot though, and anything other would seem strange.

In one scenario the price difference could be quite large; Phase One has chosen to value this back almost as much as a full-frame CCD. Maybe Hasselblad makes a different decision and price after sensor size and put it somewhere inbetween the current H5D-40 and H5D-50. Concerning feature set I think that would be the most logical thing to do, for a back without multishot. With multishot it becomes a different story.

That sounds like 50MP single shot version, and 50MP multi-shot. The multi-shot makes sense for Hasselblad to keep from losing share in the reproduction market to IQ250 with the enhanced live view.

Regarding pricing, Hasselblad has the perception of lower pricing than Phase One. But in reality, the price points are mixed:

Entry - 40MP
$20,495 - H5D-40/80mm
$23,990 - IQ140/DF+/80mm

Mid - 50/60MP
$29,495 - H5D-50/80mm
$34,990 - IQ160/DF+/80mm

Upper - 60MP
$42,495 - H5D-60/80mm
$40,990 - IQ260/DF+/80mm



Steve Hendrix
Capture Integration

[torger]

Regarding pricing, Hasselblad has the perception of lower pricing than Phase One. But in reality, the price points are mixed:

I see. Here in Sweden it's different, also the H5D-60 kit is a little cheaper than the 645DF-IQ260 kit, ie the whole range is cheaper (prices from the major dealer which sells both Hasselblad and Phase One)

[yaya]

I'm willing to bet that Sony have a patent cross-licensing deal with Hassy

Edmund

The rights for piezo-based multi-shot belong to Jenoptik. Anyone using it is licensing it from them. For other methods there are numerous patents and some pending ones, and that includes Canon's from last year...

[Christoph C. Feldhaim]

After watching this thread and and others around the announcement of these Sony 50 MP based cameras I get a panicky feeling like:
"Lets get out of here quick and shoot 4x5" film, whatever the hassle and disadvantages compared to digital MF may be ..."

[Steve Hendrix]

I see. Here in Sweden it's different, also the H5D-60 kit is a little cheaper than the 645DF-IQ260 kit, ie the whole range is cheaper (prices from the major dealer which sells both Hasselblad and Phase One)

Yes, that's true, there can be some regional differences depending on distribution arrangements.


Steve Hendrix
Capture Integration

[Theodoros]

I'm willing to bet that Sony have a patent cross-licensing deal with Hassy

Edmund

What Sony has to do with MS? …MS is a method applied on the back by the back maker, not by the sensor maker… As it is, (unless if another maker gets rights rouse the licence) only Hasselblad (through ex-imacon) and Sinar (hence Leica too) have the rights to use the technology. Sony has nothing to do with it. 

[Theodoros]

The rights for piezo-based multi-shot belong to Jenoptik. Anyone using it is licensing it from them. For other methods there are numerous patents and some pending ones, and that includes Canon's from last year...

Was ever Leaf interested to join the MS company Yair…? what about Phase? …why are you absent from the ultimate IQ by far whenever subject is still?

[LKaven]

What Sony has to do with MS? …MS is a method applied on the back by the back maker, not by the sensor maker… As it is, (unless if another maker gets rights rouse the licence) only Hasselblad (through ex-imacon) and Sinar (hence Leica too) have the rights to use the technology. Sony has nothing to do with it. 

I believe Edmund was imagining that in a /cross/ licensing deal, Hasselblad would receive the new sensor technology from Sony, and Sony would gain the ability to use the IP involved in multishot. 

[Theodoros]

I believe Edmund was imagining that in a /cross/ licensing deal, Hasselblad would receive the new sensor technology from Sony, and Sony would gain the ability to use the IP involved in multishot. 

I noticed Edmund is …on line.

[eronald]

I believe Edmund was imagining that in a /cross/ licensing deal, Hasselblad would receive the new sensor technology from Sony, and Sony would gain the ability to use the IP involved in multishot.  

Yes, this is what I thought. However Yair has corrected me, indicating that Jenoptik originated the patents for piezo displacement of the sensor, which I naively assumed belonged to Imacon and thus Hassy.

Still, I'm astonished that no japanese manufacturer is doing multishot in a consumer camera, as it is a fairly obvious application of in-body vibration reduction technology. One could even imagine it being done handheld with an electronic shutter on a CMOS sensor.

Edmund

PS. It *is* possible that Sony has licensed True Focus, which might be useful even in 35mm hi-rez cameras.

[yaya]

Was ever Leaf interested to join the MS company Yair…? what about Phase? …why are you absent from the ultimate IQ by far whenever subject is still?

The Cantare XY had multi-shot, which at the time (2000) was a nice addition to the stable although it could not touch the Volare: TRUE MS, B&W chip, high quality RGB filters...nothing else could touch it...but that was 15 years ago and both technology and the market have moved on...no need to open a subject that has been discussed to death already...

[eronald]

The Cantare XY had multi-shot, which at the time (2000) was a nice addition to the stable although it could not touch the Volare: TRUE MS, B&W chip, high quality RGB filters...nothing else could touch it...but that was 15 years ago and both technology and the market have moved on...no need to open a subject that has been discussed to death already...

Fashion and technology are wheels, they go round and round -

Look how Tesla was ridiculed and bankrupted by Edison for suggesting AC was a good idea for power transmission, and was ridiculed up to a few years ago for his ideas of power transmission by induction which are now suddenly all the rage in the consumer industry - while DC may also come to have its day again.  

Anyway, you know as well as I do that some form of multispectral imaging will come back in the art repro market - it's just a matter of time - maybe the filter wheel will resuscitate

Edmund

PS. Here is a nice piece of history which shows how advanced Leaf were. There is a discussion of multishot vs. single shot.
http://www.epi-centre.com/reports/9906cs.html

[jduncan]

That sounds like 50MP single shot version, and 50MP multi-shot. The multi-shot makes sense for Hasselblad to keep from losing share in the reproduction market to IQ250 with the enhanced live view.

Regarding pricing, Hasselblad has the perception of lower pricing than Phase One. But in reality, the price points are mixed:

Entry - 40MP
$20,495 - H5D-40/80mm
$23,990 - IQ140/DF+/80mm

Mid - 50/60MP
$29,495 - H5D-50/80mm
$34,990 - IQ160/DF+/80mm

Upper - 60MP
$42,495 - H5D-60/80mm
$40,990 - IQ260/DF+/80mm



Steve Hendrix
Capture Integration

Out of curiosity  : Do you know what is the difference between the 40990 and the  43990 from this other vendor ?

http://www.calumetphoto.com/INTERSHOP/web/WFS/Calumet-US-Site/en_US/-/USD/ViewParametricSearch-SimpleOfferSearch?SynchronizerToken=6786309a2a72ea0706a24cd7c9b949d62a69379f82d60e9c96a29b096ad58113_%2Fe3dLGenmTOND7TvRe9X6g%3D%3D&SearchTerm=IQ260&search=

I know is not your page, but the page of a different company, but you may know.

By the way the  H5D-50MS is $37495 (with lens) and the H5D-200Ms is $42995  (body only) So maybe a little hope.
 
Thanks,

J. Duncan

[Steve Hendrix]

Out of curiosity  : Do you know what is the difference between the 40990 and the  43990 from this other vendor ?

http://www.calumetphoto.com/INTERSHOP/web/WFS/Calumet-US-Site/en_US/-/USD/ViewParametricSearch-SimpleOfferSearch?SynchronizerToken=6786309a2a72ea0706a24cd7c9b949d62a69379f82d60e9c96a29b096ad58113_%2Fe3dLGenmTOND7TvRe9X6g%3D%3D&SearchTerm=IQ260&search=

I know is not your page, but the page of a different company, but you may know.

By the way the  H5D-50MS is $37495 (with lens) and the H5D-200Ms is $42995  (body only) So maybe a little hope.
 
Thanks,

J. Duncan

Hi J -

My guess is a typo, the $43,990 is the pricing for an IQ260 with DF+/80LS Lens kit, but instead of 1 Year Classic Warranty, this would be 5 Year Value Add Warranty for the same configuration. Not speaking for them, just my best guess.


Steve Hendrix
Capture Integration