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Author Topic: You wait years for CMOS backs to arrive, and then... Disappointment.  (Read 60742 times)

pedro39photo

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Re: You wait years for CMOS backs to arrive, and then... Disappointment.
« Reply #200 on: January 28, 2014, 05:35:50 pm »

One time i have a problem with a H3D Li-On charger battery, i was in a hurry to have fix done that i drive to electronic warehouse components near my house and asked to the electronic engineer that repairs mostly LCDs and high end Hi-FI that if it can help me to fix my hasselblad charger, he said will try. After 2 days it give a call and said was a small fix and was 20$

But he was in totally shock after i said her that charger was 200$ and the battery was 250$, he drop the mouth and run to the internet to confirm...he could believe after opened the charger saw the components and told " men that its just a simple li on charger and a li-on battery i really really don´t understand why that price tag...but if i know i could charge for the fix...60$ not 20$....heheheh said he laughing

This mad prices for simple tech and a Hassy logo hurts... more hurts with the Lunar rebranding madness...was like a bell for me to wake up.
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eronald

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Re: You wait years for CMOS backs to arrive, and then... Disappointment.
« Reply #201 on: January 28, 2014, 05:39:55 pm »

I am but a mere grain of sand on this vast beach, but images are the ONLY thing of interest to me. As they say, the bullshit stops when the JPEG drops.
An invitation to your prestigious event might be too much to ask for; what with all the blue chippers hanging around and all that. But surely, a web gallery is not impossible in the year 2014 AD?

The crybaby is all you get :)
Everything else is prints.

Edmund

PS. when your favorite model comes to Paris tell her to visit me and I'll take a picture of her :)
« Last Edit: January 28, 2014, 05:43:09 pm by eronald »
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synn

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Re: You wait years for CMOS backs to arrive, and then... Disappointment.
« Reply #202 on: January 28, 2014, 05:41:59 pm »

The crybaby is all you get :)
Everything else is prints.

Edmund

Something other than a graph.
We're making progress here!


PS. when your favorite model comes to Paris tell her to visit me and I'll take a picture of her :)


When my favorite model travels to Paris, she does so to be photographed by someone who's actually known for this stuff.
« Last Edit: January 28, 2014, 07:07:30 pm by synn »
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eronald

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Re: You wait years for CMOS backs to arrive, and then... Disappointment.
« Reply #203 on: January 28, 2014, 05:47:31 pm »

Something other than a graph.
We're making progress here!

Absolutely. Here is more 35mm Jpeg quality.
I like the dSLRs; they give clean, focused results. It's never "perfect" but almost always "really good".

Edmund
« Last Edit: January 28, 2014, 05:50:51 pm by eronald »
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synn

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Re: You wait years for CMOS backs to arrive, and then... Disappointment.
« Reply #204 on: January 28, 2014, 05:52:59 pm »

Absolutely. Here is more 35mm Jpeg quality.
I like the dSLRs; they give clean, focused results. It's never "perfect" but almost always "really good".

Edmund

A fashion show is perfect hunting grounds for 35mm DSLRs.
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Theodoros

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Re: You wait years for CMOS backs to arrive, and then... Disappointment.
« Reply #205 on: January 28, 2014, 05:55:42 pm »

A fashion show is perfect hunting grounds for 35mm DSLRs.
Sports, wildlife, street and weddings too…
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eronald

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Re: You wait years for CMOS backs to arrive, and then... Disappointment.
« Reply #206 on: January 28, 2014, 05:59:53 pm »

A fashion show is perfect hunting grounds for 35mm DSLRs.

Actually I think the Hassy and the Leica would do well there too. The new Phase back seems made for that environment  but the camera itself may have issues and I would avoid being put in that position. Maybe you can try when Steve loans you one? :)
Edmund
« Last Edit: January 28, 2014, 06:01:53 pm by eronald »
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synn

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Re: You wait years for CMOS backs to arrive, and then... Disappointment.
« Reply #207 on: January 28, 2014, 06:09:15 pm »

Actually I think the Hassy and the Leica would do well there too. The new Phase back seems made for that environment  but the camera itself may have issues and I would avoid being put in that position. Maybe you can try when Steve loans you one? :)
Edmund

I have no interest in a Hassy or a Leica,  but here's something I shot while the model was jumping around. No 758 point AF system. Just one point that works well for those who know how to use it properly.

Also, the chances of Steve loaning me anything is far less likely than the world getting to see an online portfolio from you.  ;)
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ErikKaffehr

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Re: You wait years for CMOS backs to arrive, and then... Disappointment.
« Reply #208 on: January 28, 2014, 06:32:47 pm »

Hi,

The A7/A7r and what may be coming after it may be interesting. I am no buyer, right now. Next year, we will see.

Best regards
Erik




lets see if not sony is on the way to make some changes in the game. they started with APS and the nex ,  they gave nikon a one year exclusivity with their ( really advanced ) 36mp ff sensor, after this year they brought out their own camera with the same resolution but still more advanced sensor. their new optics made by zeis are nothing less than spectaculous. and this is where the music plays : in the optics !
it seems like there are some people really thinking how to make cameras and searching new ways,- and it doesnt look at all as if this are doing the big old camera players as leica, canon, nikon and so on.  not to speak about the mf manufactors. i cant see any ideas which go really forward here, small increases ok,- and even this sometimes i doubted.  ... i think its more that tehy are trying not to fall too much behind making a living at first from rich amateurs which believe in the "you get what you pay for it" rule.
 lets see how long sony will give phase one some exclusivity, i could imagine that  they would not developed a mf sensor without using them as well, seeing the energy which they put in the camera business in the last few years.
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eronald

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Re: You wait years for CMOS backs to arrive, and then... Disappointment.
« Reply #209 on: January 28, 2014, 07:32:02 pm »

I have no interest in a Hassy or a Leica,  but here's something I shot while the model was jumping around. No 758 point AF system. Just one point that works well for those who know how to use it properly.

Also, the chances of Steve loaning me anything is far less likely than the world getting to see an online portfolio from you.  ;)

You know, I think online portofolios are an excellent way to get jobs, but otherwise there are so many pictures online that it is really hard to stand out. Prints are in a way less generic.

Edmund
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synn

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Re: You wait years for CMOS backs to arrive, and then... Disappointment.
« Reply #210 on: January 28, 2014, 07:36:05 pm »

You know, I think online portofolios are an excellent way to get jobs, but otherwise there are so many pictures online that it is really hard to stand out. Prints are in a way less generic.

Edmund

The two aren't mutually exclusive.
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Steve Hendrix

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Re: You wait years for CMOS backs to arrive, and then... Disappointment.
« Reply #211 on: January 28, 2014, 09:17:40 pm »


1991 - $1,900
http://www.apple-history.com/classic_ii

2011 - $1,999
http://www.apple-history.com/imac_mid_11


Not exactly apples to apples (sorry.....)   ::)  But technology doesn't always get better and cheaper. There's plenty of examples of that. It does usually get better, and sometimes cheaper. But if you want an all in one Mac, maybe not cheaper.


Personally, I'd like to see more MFD prices in the reach of (at least some) more photographers. I only engage in the discussion because regardless of my or anyone else's opinion, Phase One (Hasselblad, Leica, Leaf, whoever) has the right to target any part of the photographic market they wish. To be able to produce - quite good! - products for a segment that doesn't really have many other choices that offer (at least some) of the features and occupy that price range is, from a business standpoint, a very nice space to play in. As long as your products continue to sell in sufficient numbers, which they have. I do believe Phase One does strongly like making products for the photographic industry. I don't have the sense that some of those talented individuals would necessarily enjoy toiling at some other pursuit with the same gusto. Just my sense.

However, that is different from some sort of ethical obligation to provide photographic products for a certain segment of photographers (working photographers who might be able to afford just a little more than a Canon/Nikon). Phase One's primary early market segment really was working pros who could afford their products. And they still target that segment today. The difference is that in the early days, they really only competed against film, and the cost justification for a working pro was not so difficult. Today, the cost justification is much tougher, because a working pro can get a lot done with so many cameras costing 10% or less what MFD costs. So - the competitive landscape for digital capture products changed the equation for the working pro from a cost justification standpoint. When products are being produced that cost 90% less than your technology and fulfill the requirements of most of your client base, then you have some choices to make. You can try and compete on price and operate in that lower cost space where most working pros went to. But from a competitive standpoint, what a mess. So many more competitors, and the price pressure to create a winning competitive product, but with a restricted production budget. Why would they want to? It doesn't sound like much fun to me. Another option is to create the best and most unique product they can at whatever price the market can bear (within some amount of parameter that will profitably enable enough users to purchase). That sounds like a nice gig. It sounds like a business plan that might be a good model for some (but not too many) photographers to adopt.

Apple has also been linked to particular user markets. Similarly, a big part of Apple's success drew from imaging professionals (and still does). But there has been a strong sense in recent years that Apple has "abandoned" the professional market, meaning graphics professionals. What Apple has really done instead, is to continue to leverage their innate technology to create products that convey what they are all about as a company. The market for their products is more fluid than the technology itself. And I feel Phase One operates in a similar vein.



Steve Hendrix
Capture Integration
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ErikKaffehr

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Re: You wait years for CMOS backs to arrive, and then... Disappointment.
« Reply #212 on: January 29, 2014, 01:12:49 am »

Hi,

Hi,

1991$ is not the same 2011$.

I essentially agree what you say on Phase One pricing. I wouldn't be surprised if Hasselblad comes out with an alternative at lower price.

But, it seems that Hasselblad doesn't get their act together on live view, which happens to be important to me. Some others need sync with electronic flash in full daylight. If a camera has a feature set you need and no competition than it is just a buy or don't buy decision.

I am not into buying a new MFDB anyway, cannot afford it. I am shooting a P45+ and try to find out how I feel about it.

Best regards
Erik



1991 - $1,900
http://www.apple-history.com/classic_ii

2011 - $1,999
http://www.apple-history.com/imac_mid_11



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torger

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Re: You wait years for CMOS backs to arrive, and then... Disappointment.
« Reply #213 on: January 29, 2014, 02:15:53 am »

I am not into buying a new MFDB anyway, cannot afford it. I am shooting a P45+ and try to find out how I feel about it.

...but the sooner great technology arrives to MFDB the better. Deprecation rate is real quick if you think in five year periods, just wait a few years and you may be able to get one. That's how I'm thinking at least. New MFDB products also push down prices on second hand market, so the better products and the lower the prices the better for us dealing second hand.

As I have a tech camera interest, the new MFDB technology is also important as it decides how vital a certain system will be. For my chosen system to thrive it needs live view, wide angular response and larger than 44x33 sensors, so I hope for that to arrive as soon as possible.

The discontinuation of Copal shutters, reduced popularity of Schneider wides, the race for increased resolving power making organic view camera style of work less practical are all things that worry me -- it indicates health issues with the system I love. Sure I can work for years with a discontinued system (just look at Contax, RZ, Hassy V etc), but it feels better if it's alive an well in current products. The arrival of CMOS and live view is on the other hand positive news. Just waiting for a bit larger sensor (will happen) and great wide angular response (might happen, but less likely).
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Steve Hendrix

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Re: You wait years for CMOS backs to arrive, and then... Disappointment.
« Reply #214 on: January 29, 2014, 09:55:33 am »

Hi,

Hi,

1991$ is not the same 2011$.

I essentially agree what you say on Phase One pricing. I wouldn't be surprised if Hasselblad comes out with an alternative at lower price.

But, it seems that Hasselblad doesn't get their act together on live view, which happens to be important to me. Some others need sync with electronic flash in full daylight. If a camera has a feature set you need and no competition than it is just a buy or don't buy decision.

I am not into buying a new MFDB anyway, cannot afford it. I am shooting a P45+ and try to find out how I feel about it.

Best regards
Erik





True - inflation, etc, accounts for some factor for that period of time.

I'm looking forward to the Hasselblad implementation of CMOS. I wouldn't assume it will cost less. It might, or it might cost more. We'll see.


Steve Hendrix
Capture Integration
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jduncan

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Re: You wait years for CMOS backs to arrive, and then... Disappointment.
« Reply #215 on: January 29, 2014, 10:32:45 am »


True - inflation, etc, accounts for some factor for that period of time.

I'm looking forward to the Hasselblad implementation of CMOS. I wouldn't assume it will cost less. It might, or it might cost more. We'll see.


Steve Hendrix
Capture Integration

I an ideal world they will make multi shot standard with the CMOS back at no extra price and let the other guys sort it out.
But it's unlikely, that will payoff in the long run, but initially will impact revenue, not sure Hasselblad is able or willing to do so.

So lets wait and see. For me what the CMOS could bring is a level play (sensors with no exclusive deals) and Dynamic range.
My concern is color. In particular when shooting colored people  (in particular black skin) the Hasselblad natural color solution is supreme*.

Hight iso in a back is nice but not for me: medium format time is "I am controlling the light" time, If I can't there is the Nikon.

As you say let's wait for Hasselblad implementation.

Best regards,
J. Duncan


*I guess the same for Phase, it's just that I have never shoot one.
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eronald

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Re: You wait years for CMOS backs to arrive, and then... Disappointment.
« Reply #216 on: January 29, 2014, 10:39:09 am »

With the newest Phase One crop sensor camera+body listed at between one and a half and twice the price of a Leica S, I guess Phase should be worried about Leica becoming the value competition.

Some  pros with anorexic wallets might move to "Leica", a less known brand from an obscure european country, despite the fact that these cameras are mostly used by amateurs,  the system is not "open", and their  lenses are sadly known for inferior optical quality ;)

Edmund


I'm looking forward to the Hasselblad implementation of CMOS. I wouldn't assume it will cost less. It might, or it might cost more. We'll see.


Steve Hendrix
Capture Integration
« Last Edit: January 29, 2014, 10:57:34 am by eronald »
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bjanes

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Re: You wait years for CMOS backs to arrive, and then... Disappointment.
« Reply #217 on: January 29, 2014, 10:42:10 am »

Apple has also been linked to particular user markets. Similarly, a big part of Apple's success drew from imaging professionals (and still does). But there has been a strong sense in recent years that Apple has "abandoned" the professional market, meaning graphics professionals. What Apple has really done instead, is to continue to leverage their innate technology to create products that convey what they are all about as a company. The market for their products is more fluid than the technology itself. And I feel Phase One operates in a similar vein.

Apple is still a great company, but their business model has encountered difficulties lately as depicted in this article, which says " Now, the trend-setting company is losing ground to rivals that offer what Apple has stubbornly refused to make: smartphones with lower prices and larger screens than the iPhone."

Could the same thing happen to PhaseOne once the Japanese enter the MFDB market in earnest?

Bill
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Manoli

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Re: You wait years for CMOS backs to arrive, and then... Disappointment.
« Reply #218 on: January 29, 2014, 10:44:22 am »

Steve Hendrix / Doug Peterson
Is the PhaseOne guarantee on new backs now 'world-wide' or is it still region-specific ?

bump ?
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eronald

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Re: You wait years for CMOS backs to arrive, and then... Disappointment.
« Reply #219 on: January 29, 2014, 10:48:08 am »

One of my friends is a VERY successful marketing consultant, and we've had this discussion.

I said the competition have better cameras, bigger screens, pens etc. He explained to me that the iPhone is "better" because of "the intangibles". Eg. the brand, the brand, the brand, the software, and the ecosystem and the Appstore. In the mean time, my aging eyes can barely read the tiny screen of my iPhone and Apple keeps promising a larger screen in a year (like CMOS).

In the end, I guess Apple have now positioned themselves like Nike shoes - they cost about $5 to make, and people buy them at $200 because of branding. When I was a kid, canvas and rubber sports shoes were so cheap that my parents would send me to buy them on my own, out of pocket money, and every kid had the same ones.

Edmund



Apple is still a great company, but their business model has encountered difficulties lately as depicted in this article, which says " Now, the trend-setting company is losing ground to rivals that offer what Apple has stubbornly refused to make: smartphones with lower prices and larger screens than the iPhone."

Could the same thing happen to PhaseOne once the Japanese enter the MFDB market in earnest?

Bill
« Last Edit: January 29, 2014, 10:49:57 am by eronald »
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