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Author Topic: You wait years for CMOS backs to arrive, and then... Disappointment.  (Read 50176 times)

narikin

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It was a long wait for CMOS to come to MF and then this disappointing IQ250 arrives.

A step back into large crop factors
Just 50mp
No EVF output
Same back form and features (or lack thereof)
Same crazy price at $35,000

Yes an improvement in ISO, a better live view, and.... err.... that's it??  We waited years for this?

It can't even do 2fps? It has no line out for an external monitor/EVF? It can't shoot a 4k video let alone the 8k it potentially has, no matter how short the duration?

Very sad about this. I was ready to buy another back to complement my low ISO IQseries CCD one, and get the best of both worlds, but this is not worth it. It's very much Gen 1, rushed to market once Sony released the chip.

Maybe some company like RED will unlock the chips latent potential. Maybe a larger full frame chip will follow. Maybe the Live View/EVF out will come with IQ3 series, but this... gives me none of those. 

I'll pass.
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eronald

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Re: You wait years for CMOS backs to arrive, and then... Disappointment.
« Reply #1 on: January 25, 2014, 10:41:26 am »

The truth comes from the rosebud lips of spoilt children :)

Edmund

It was a long wait for CMOS to come to MF and then this disappointing IQ250 arrives.

A step back into large crop factors
Just 50mp
No EVF output
Same back form and features (or lack thereof)
Same crazy price at $35,000

Yes an improvement in ISO, a better live view, and.... err.... that's it??  We waited years for this?

It can't even do 2fps? It has no line out for an external monitor/EVF? It can't shoot a 4k video let alone the 8k it potentially has, no matter how short the duration?

Very sad about this. I was ready to buy another back to complement my low ISO IQseries CCD one, and get the best of both worlds, but this is not worth it. It's very much Gen 1, rushed to market once Sony released the chip.

Maybe some company like RED will unlock the chips latent potential. Maybe a larger full frame chip will follow. Maybe the Live View/EVF out will come with IQ3 series, but this... gives me none of those. 

I'll pass.
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Kolor-Pikker

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Re: You wait years for CMOS backs to arrive, and then... Disappointment.
« Reply #2 on: January 25, 2014, 11:20:19 am »

I'm slightly disappointed too, this reminds me of when features like live view first made their debut in the 5D mkII, but that was in 2008. This is what the first IQ series already should have had.

Watch Sony make an A7XL with this same sensor for under $10k a year or two down the road, it'll be much better value.
« Last Edit: January 25, 2014, 11:23:08 am by Kolor-Pikker »
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david distefano

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Re: You wait years for CMOS backs to arrive, and then... Disappointment.
« Reply #3 on: January 25, 2014, 12:06:27 pm »

when i first heard about hasselblad and the cmos sensor last week i was thinking that maybe i would be able to buy "new" instead of "used" for a mfdb. the $35k price for the new phase 1 floored me. i would like someone to explain to me why a sensor that is approx. 60% larger in surface area is 12x the price of d800/e. is it because 16 bit vs 14 bit? is the sensor that much more expensive in larger sizes? i'm talking tech. price to build the back. what is it about mfdb that command such high prices. someone on this forum said that the differences is about 5% but if you want that extra 5% you are willing to pay for it. if you had $35k to spend you could buy the 250 back or a couple of d800/e and a [email protected]#tload of lenses for that price, and have money left over to take trips to use the equipment. are the prices so high because they sell so few? few is a relative term in relation to all camera sales. if the prices were lower i believe that the companies would be able to expand their customer base and be just as profitable if not more profitable because of the increased acc they would sell. live few is nice since i have an arca swiss but it isn't that difficult to compose than put my hasselblad digital back on. so until i win the lotto i quess i will have to live with the d800 and medium and large format film and hopefully, with the introduction of both the phase one and hasselblad backs, used back will drop to the level i can afford.
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Chris Barrett

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Re: You wait years for CMOS backs to arrive, and then... Disappointment.
« Reply #4 on: January 25, 2014, 12:07:02 pm »

Official Response from the Studio of Christopher Barrett:  "Meh..."
I am, however, quite pleased with my IQ260

Paul2660

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Re: You wait years for CMOS backs to arrive, and then... Disappointment.
« Reply #5 on: January 25, 2014, 12:14:50 pm »

I believe on the main IQ250 comparisons page on Phase One's site has some fine print to the effect that only the 280 and 260 are 16 bit and the 250 is 14bit.  

Whereas the 250 is 14 stops of DR vs 13 stops for the 280 and 260.

Paul
« Last Edit: January 25, 2014, 12:22:15 pm by Paul2660 »
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torger

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Re: You wait years for CMOS backs to arrive, and then... Disappointment.
« Reply #6 on: January 25, 2014, 12:20:11 pm »

Sensor price is likely considerably larger compared to 24x36mm. My guess based on historic CCD prices is that this sensor costs about $2500-$3500 per unit to the manufacturer. Ie it's impossible to make a camera that's as cheap as a Sony A7r. Does it have to cost $35K? Not likely, but one should not under-estimate the cost of developing the supporting electronics, just showing a high FPS live view with touch interface requires substantial development effort, and low sales volumes means high cost.

I'm quite sure that the price is extra high because Phase One has among professionals a very good reputation as the medium format brand, join the family and you have access to the latest and greatest MF technology, with upgrade offers which are substantially sweeter than looking at the price list.

An interesting thing here though is that this sensor is not going to be unique for Phase One. Seems like anyone is free to develop their own back around it, it shall be interesting to see what the competitors can do. The "sanest" package concerning both pricing and features of this sensor I think will be presented by Pentax.

when i first heard about hasselblad and the cmos sensor last week i was thinking that maybe i would be able to buy "new" instead of "used" for a mfdb. the $35k price for the new phase 1 floored me.
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jerome_m

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Re: You wait years for CMOS backs to arrive, and then... Disappointment.
« Reply #7 on: January 25, 2014, 12:33:09 pm »

when i first heard about hasselblad and the cmos sensor last week i was thinking that maybe i would be able to buy "new" instead of "used" for a mfdb. the $35k price for the new phase 1 floored me. i would like someone to explain to me why a sensor that is approx. 60% larger in surface area is 12x the price of d800/e. is it because 16 bit vs 14 bit? is the sensor that much more expensive in larger sizes? i'm talking tech. price to build the back. what is it about mfdb that command such high prices.

Phase One pricing has always been in the higher end of the market, even compared to other digital MF cameras. What is surprising, however, is that the IQ250 is even more expensive than the IQ260, which has a larger sensor and more pixels (35K$ versus 30K$).

Edit: crossed out the reflection about prices. The price of the IQ260 was wrong: confusion on my part between the prices in and $.
« Last Edit: January 25, 2014, 02:42:51 pm by jerome_m »
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hjulenissen

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Re: You wait years for CMOS backs to arrive, and then... Disappointment.
« Reply #8 on: January 25, 2014, 12:57:09 pm »

i would like someone to explain to me why a sensor that is approx. 60% larger in surface area is 12x the price of d800/e.
Purchasing an exotic/boutique high-performance car is very different from purchasing a BMW M5, even though the M5 has excellent performance in a well-rounded package.

Catering to a much smaller niche using expensive raw material is always going to be expensive. Only the customer can decide if it is worth it.

-h
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gerald.d

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Re: You wait years for CMOS backs to arrive, and then... Disappointment.
« Reply #9 on: January 25, 2014, 01:01:08 pm »

One thing that always surprises me about these conversations is that no-one ever seems to mention where the company is located.

Denmark isn't exactly the cheapest place in the world (look up some cost of living comparisons - I think you'll be shocked).

Just a guess, but I reckon simply because of where they are based, the products are priced 50% higher than they otherwise would.
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Paul2660

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Re: You wait years for CMOS backs to arrive, and then... Disappointment.
« Reply #10 on: January 25, 2014, 01:04:15 pm »

Jerome,

Where did you see that price point on the 260, I don't doubt it but I had missed that big a price reduction as just a few weeks ago it was around 36,900 or more.  List with no trade in.

Need to adjust my insurance. 

Thanks
Paul
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Juanito

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Re: You wait years for CMOS backs to arrive, and then... Disappointment.
« Reply #11 on: January 25, 2014, 01:38:08 pm »

The price here is killing me. I don't understand how a D800 can be $3,000 and for that I get metering, AF and all the other stuff that comes with an actual complete camera. With the the new CMOS back, for the price of my 2012 Honda Crosstour EX I get a somewhat larger chip and a detachable platform. Can someone please explain WTF?

david distefano

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Re: You wait years for CMOS backs to arrive, and then... Disappointment.
« Reply #12 on: January 25, 2014, 01:43:48 pm »

Purchasing an exotic/boutique high-performance car is very different from purchasing a BMW M5, even though the M5 has excellent performance in a well-rounded package.

Catering to a much smaller niche using expensive raw material is always going to be expensive. Only the customer can decide if it is worth it.

-h
but we are not talking about exotic materials. mfdb and nikon/sony d800 use the same materials. i can understand difference in price for a rolls vs bmw where different materials are used. in the mfdb you have a sensor, the most expensive part, processors, etc. the same as the d800. is the sensor 12x the price of a sony 24x36 sensor? i think not. the sensor prices i have seen bandied about on various forums for this new sensor  is about $3k. yes mfdb prices have always been high, but like any product, the sensor prices would drop if more were used and if mfdb prices were lower you would sell more. i wouldn't be surprised if sony gets into the production of medium format cameras and undercuts everyone.
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jerome_m

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Re: You wait years for CMOS backs to arrive, and then... Disappointment.
« Reply #13 on: January 25, 2014, 02:41:03 pm »

Where did you see that price point on the 260, I don't doubt it but I had missed that big a price reduction as just a few weeks ago it was around 36,900 or more.

You are right. I mistakenly confused the prices in and in $. Sorry.
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LKaven

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Re: You wait years for CMOS backs to arrive, and then... Disappointment.
« Reply #14 on: January 25, 2014, 03:08:03 pm »

[...]
It can't even do 2fps? It has no line out for an external monitor/EVF? It can't shoot a 4k video let alone the 8k it potentially has, no matter how short the duration?

I think the price is the biggest question mark.  Pentax was sourcing the sensor for the 645D at around $1000 in quantity.  The price of the camera was equitable.  I don't see how this sensor could be more than 2-3 times that price.  It will be interesting to see if Pentax uses this in the 645DII, and at what price. 

I don't begrudge the good folks at CI and DT getting actual salaries.  But something in this market seems ripe for disruption.  A major Japanese manufacturer could upset the status quo here with the right camera.

I'm not surprised about the readout or lack of video.  The Exmor gets its low noise figures partly from doing a slow (sub MHz) readout, which is slow even with a column-parallel readout.  As for video, I'm not sure this is a form factor that is suitable for video without a lot of other functionality built-in. 

eronald

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Re: You wait years for CMOS backs to arrive, and then... Disappointment.
« Reply #15 on: January 25, 2014, 03:19:58 pm »

Same size means same price.

Not could, will.

Edmund

I think the price is the biggest question mark.  Pentax was sourcing the sensor for the 645D at around $1000 in quantity.  The price of the camera was equitable.  I don't see how this sensor could be more than 2-3 times that price.  It will be interesting to see if Pentax uses this in the 645DII, and at what price.  

I don't begrudge the good folks at CI and DT getting actual salaries.  But something in this market seems ripe for disruption.  A major Japanese manufacturer could upset the status quo here with the right camera.

I'm not surprised about the readout or lack of video.  The Exmor gets its low noise figures partly from doing a slow (sub MHz) readout, which is slow even with a column-parallel readout.  As for video, I'm not sure this is a form factor that is suitable for video without a lot of other functionality built-in.  
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torger

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Re: You wait years for CMOS backs to arrive, and then... Disappointment.
« Reply #16 on: January 25, 2014, 03:43:52 pm »

Danish engineers are not too expensive, high taxes etc just as here in Sweden, but compared to the US salaries are low. So development cost is likely not much higher than if made in US. Mounting cost will be more expensive than if made in China but I doubt it would be more than $1k per back in extra salary cost (and that is already a high figure), can't be too many hours in mounting. If it was the mounting would have been outsourced already. Equipment costs for companies are about the same in Denmark as otherwhere as companies don't pay tax the same way as individuals. So I don't think company location is the answer. If it was Hasselblad could not be as "cheap", Sweden and Denmark are very similar in terms of costs.

One thing that always surprises me about these conversations is that no-one ever seems to mention where the company is located.

Denmark isn't exactly the cheapest place in the world (look up some cost of living comparisons - I think you'll be shocked).

Just a guess, but I reckon simply because of where they are based, the products are priced 50% higher than they otherwise would.
« Last Edit: January 25, 2014, 03:47:10 pm by torger »
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vjbelle

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Re: You wait years for CMOS backs to arrive, and then... Disappointment.
« Reply #17 on: January 25, 2014, 03:57:37 pm »

It was a long wait for CMOS to come to MF and then this disappointing IQ250 arrives.

A step back into large crop factors
Just 50mp
No EVF output
Same back form and features (or lack thereof)
Same crazy price at $35,000

Yes an improvement in ISO, a better live view, and.... err.... that's it??  We waited years for this?

It can't even do 2fps? It has no line out for an external monitor/EVF? It can't shoot a 4k video let alone the 8k it potentially has, no matter how short the duration?

Very sad about this. I was ready to buy another back to complement my low ISO IQseries CCD one, and get the best of both worlds, but this is not worth it. It's very much Gen 1, rushed to market once Sony released the chip.

Maybe some company like RED will unlock the chips latent potential. Maybe a larger full frame chip will follow. Maybe the Live View/EVF out will come with IQ3 series, but this... gives me none of those. 

I'll pass.

+1

Victor
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BAB

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Re: You wait years for CMOS backs to arrive, and then... Disappointment.
« Reply #18 on: January 25, 2014, 04:28:56 pm »

Always remember the marketing and financing costs, lots of backs are financed over a period of time and Phase also offers trade-ins this is built into the initial MSRP.

If you pay cash for the back you are in effect helping to finance the company's whole marketing strategy. To be fair they should offer a discounted price for cash, they mark in the financing, inflated residual value and charge you for the financing charges with purchase a safety valve in case they have to finance product themselves or outsource market rates go to high.

I don't believe Nikon offers financing and trade-ins?
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jduncan

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Re: You wait years for CMOS backs to arrive, and then... Disappointment.
« Reply #19 on: January 25, 2014, 04:34:37 pm »

I believe on the main IQ250 comparisons page on Phase One's site has some fine print to the effect that only the 280 and 260 are 16 bit and the 250 is 14bit.  

Whereas the 250 is 14 stops of DR vs 13 stops for the 280 and 260.

Paul


Now that is shocking.  If that is the case why didn't use the D800 derived technology and get a 48x 36mm  sensor?
I hope that the new chip has some fantastic saving feature.

Best regards,
J. Duncan
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