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Author Topic: You wait years for CMOS backs to arrive, and then... Disappointment.  (Read 50174 times)

LKaven

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Re: You wait years for CMOS backs to arrive, and then... Disappointment.
« Reply #20 on: January 25, 2014, 04:45:48 pm »

Now that is shocking.  If that is the case why didn't use the D800 derived technology and get a 48x 36mm  sensor?
I hope that the new chip has some fantastic saving feature.

I think the yield would be significantly lower and the cost correspondingly higher. 

While Sony has the process of making a 24x36mm sensor refined, the process of making something exactly twice the size is not made any easier by that fact.  In every other respect, it is the same derived technology, AFAIK.

david distefano

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Re: You wait years for CMOS backs to arrive, and then... Disappointment.
« Reply #21 on: January 25, 2014, 04:50:12 pm »

why can hasselblad sell the still in production cfv-50 for $17k? that to me is a price that is reasonable for mfdb. no way is a digital back worth the same amount of money as my f-250 4x4 diesel truck.
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ErikKaffehr

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Re: You wait years for CMOS backs to arrive, and then... Disappointment.
« Reply #22 on: January 25, 2014, 05:03:58 pm »

Probably true.

I guess that there is a larger market for cropped sensor as it would fit Pentax, Hasselbald and Leica.

That 16 bit stuff is just a marketing lie from Phase One, 12 bits signal and 4 bits of noise. Now they get 14 bits of signal and no noise and that is the exact reason they can increase ISO.

Best regards
Erik

I think the yield would be significantly lower and the cost correspondingly higher. 

While Sony has the process of making a 24x36mm sensor refined, the process of making something exactly twice the size is not made any easier by that fact.  In every other respect, it is the same derived technology, AFAIK.
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BernardLanguillier

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Re: You wait years for CMOS backs to arrive, and then... Disappointment.
« Reply #23 on: January 25, 2014, 06:19:34 pm »

For a significant part of high end/luxury buyers, high price is a desired feature.

In their mind, an expensive product from a reputable brand HAS TO BE superior than a much cheaper product from a mainstream brand.

So pricing the IQ250 high has a first value which is to de facto avoid real world performance comparisons.

The second things Phaseone probably thinks they are protecting with this pricing is the average selling price of their backs in the marketplace, in other words a key aspect of their brand equity.

Cheers,
Bernard

markmullen

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Re: You wait years for CMOS backs to arrive, and then... Disappointment.
« Reply #24 on: January 25, 2014, 06:40:09 pm »

I may be wrong but I understand as sensors get bigger it becomes more difficult to manufacture them and the rejection rate increases, hence the sensor costing substantially more than a 36x24mm sensor.
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Steve Hendrix

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Re: You wait years for CMOS backs to arrive, and then... Disappointment.
« Reply #25 on: January 25, 2014, 06:47:32 pm »

why can hasselblad sell the still in production cfv-50 for $17k? that to me is a price that is reasonable for mfdb. no way is a digital back worth the same amount of money as my f-250 4x4 diesel truck.


David, it is not worth it to you. To succeed, Phase One only needs their products to be worth it to their target market in the quantity they require. That is - somewhere in the neighborhood of 2,000 - 4,000 or so units annually, (of course more is always welcome). And their target market being those who desire their products and can afford such prices.

That is it in a nutshell. Phase One has identified their market and has been successful in creating products for that market. Sort of business 101. If the target market does not buy in sufficient quantity, they will fail. But that has not happened. Why should they change?

Traditionally, medium format (and larger formats) has always had a premium price. Medium format digital on the other hand, has always had a premium price several times that. This is not new. This is what medium format has been from the very beginning, starting with the 4 megapixel 24mm x 24mm chipped Leaf DCB in 1991 that sold for $32,000, not counting accessories.

With very few exceptions, medium format digital has always been priced in the $20,000 - $40,000 price range. It is the established price range that these companies target and have proven to be successful at.

I believe we may certainly see some continued dips into the below $20K price points in the future, but the majority of products will continue in this traditional range. It's unfortunate that more photographers cannot afford the high end of medium format digital, though there is a large amount of affordable second hand product available. I don't believe it is Phase One's pursuit to create products that a majority of photographers can afford. Phase One is in the business of providing excellent, top tier photographic solutions sold in a suitable quantity for the market that can afford them. That is their mission (successfully accomplished so far).

It doesn't matter how much anyone thinks a medium format CCD or CMOS sensor should cost and whether that justifies the ultimate price tag. It's irrelevant. And please no more random calculations of how many more they would sell at lower price points and their ensuing profits coming from all the additional accessory sales.  ;)


Steve Hendrix
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Steve Hendrix

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Re: You wait years for CMOS backs to arrive, and then... Disappointment.
« Reply #26 on: January 25, 2014, 07:05:41 pm »

It was a long wait for CMOS to come to MF and then this disappointing IQ250 arrives.

A step back into large crop factors
Just 50mp
No EVF output
Same back form and features (or lack thereof)
Same crazy price at $35,000

Yes an improvement in ISO, a better live view, and.... err.... that's it??  We waited years for this?

It can't even do 2fps? It has no line out for an external monitor/EVF? It can't shoot a 4k video let alone the 8k it potentially has, no matter how short the duration?

Very sad about this. I was ready to buy another back to complement my low ISO IQseries CCD one, and get the best of both worlds, but this is not worth it. It's very much Gen 1, rushed to market once Sony released the chip.

Maybe some company like RED will unlock the chips latent potential. Maybe a larger full frame chip will follow. Maybe the Live View/EVF out will come with IQ3 series, but this... gives me none of those. 

I'll pass.


And Narikan - c'mon, why the sour grapes?

Phase One finally breaks through and brings scaled CMOS chip technology to medium format and you're complaining? Now don't get me wrong - I understand where anyone who feels the same way is coming from. You want more. That's fine and you should want more. But gosh, how about Thank you Phase One for making this effort to do what hasn't been done before and I look forward to further evolution of the technology which will surely be coming in future generations?

Phase One has a tradition of introducing a technology for medium format digital and then scaling or refining it. Remember the first Phase One digital back was only 36mm 24mm (LightPhase in 1998). 4 years later, it had scaled to 49mm x 37mm (H25 in 2002). A couple years afterward portability was introduced with the P Series.

It takes time. It's not easy. I appreciate Henrik's response when asked about video capture and other features. They're not there yet - and he understands that. Medium format doesn't move as fast as smaller formats. This is nothing new. So - I don't understand the negative attitude toward the IQ250 when it is essentially version 1.0 of a very promising path forward. It's in the right hands.

I say well done - many photographers are going to love using this product. And I along with many others look forward to the possibility of some of those wish list items you checked off being implemented in future generations. I hope I don't sound like a fanboy here, since I'm anything but - I keep it real - but if I can hold manufacturers feet to the fire, I have the same right to pat them on the back.

So cheer up - you'll likely get a lot of what you want, just not so fast (though not so affordably).  :) :(


Steve Hendrix
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LKaven

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Re: You wait years for CMOS backs to arrive, and then... Disappointment.
« Reply #27 on: January 25, 2014, 07:14:17 pm »

The second things Phaseone probably thinks they are protecting with this pricing is the average selling price of their backs in the marketplace, in other words a key aspect of their brand equity.

This market is ripe for disruption.  Here for the first time, we have a big-vendor source for high performance medium format sensors as a commodity.  Any major camera-maker can put a bet on Sony as a supplier who will still be here in five years supporting and updating their product.  Sensor price will converge more or less predictably as a function of volume.  In short, a major manufacturer can justify developing a camera around this sensor.

There is one interesting thing about this sensor compared to its CCD predecessors:

I suspect that captures from the Sony sensor will look almost exactly the same between different camera implementations, with /a very small latitude for proprietary enhancements/.  By putting the gain and A-D stages on the sensor, Sony has control over the digital product, and thereby, "the look".  Anyone who designs a camera with this sensor can get "the look", and with a little work, maybe just a bit better.  

By contrast, the CCD sensors need considerable support off the sensor.  Choices of power conditioning, clocking, low-level signal routing, A-D conversion technology all made differences in the quality of the CCD capture.  The manufacturers were actually contributing to a look through their sustained R&D.

In other words, it seems putting the Sony sensor in a $40,000 camera does not promise any additional image quality over putting the Sony sensor in a $10,000 camera.  

BernardLanguillier

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Re: You wait years for CMOS backs to arrive, and then... Disappointment.
« Reply #28 on: January 25, 2014, 07:20:47 pm »

Steve,

Agreed, kudos to Phaseone for releasing the IQ250! If usable on tech cameras it has the potential, thanks to live view, to increase the real world definition of backs significantly by enabling accurate focusing in all light situations.

Now, I am sure you understand that, for this appreciation to translate in spending, what remains by most standards, a huge pile of cash a due diligence is required in the form of a competitve comparison against the objective competitors of this new back, namely the D800e, Pentax and legacy phase backs?

Cheers,
Bernard

Steve Hendrix

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Re: You wait years for CMOS backs to arrive, and then... Disappointment.
« Reply #29 on: January 25, 2014, 07:29:32 pm »

Steve,

Agreed, kudos to Phaseone for releasing the IQ250! If usable on tech cameras it has the potential, thanks to live view, to increase the real world definition of backs significantly by enabling accurate focusing in all light situations.

Now, I am sure you understand that, for this appreciation to translate in spending, what remains by most standards, a huge pile of cash a due diligence is required in the form of a competitve comparison against the objective competitors of this new back, namely the D800e, Pentax and legacy phase backs?

Cheers,
Bernard



Yes, a competitive comparison is relevant. And the value of one vs the other also relevant. But I don't believe that is relevant to Phase One. At least not to a large degree.


Steve Hendrix
Capture Integration
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eronald

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Re: You wait years for CMOS backs to arrive, and then... Disappointment.
« Reply #30 on: January 25, 2014, 08:48:37 pm »


Yes, a competitive comparison is relevant. And the value of one vs the other also relevant. But I don't believe that is relevant to Phase One. At least not to a large degree.


Steve Hendrix
Capture Integration

Hi Steve,

 Thank you for being direct and informative. I guess that won't get you elected, but it may mean that people treat you with greater respect over here.

Edmund
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jduncan

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Re: You wait years for CMOS backs to arrive, and then... Disappointment.
« Reply #31 on: January 25, 2014, 09:05:03 pm »

But gosh, how about Thank you Phase One for making this effort to do what hasn't been done before and I look forward to further evolution of the technology which will surely be coming in future generations?
Steve Hendrix
Capture Integration

The fact that a representative believes that clients and potential clients need to be grateful to a company for improving their products it's either a joke I did not get or a symptom of the issues with the medium format market. It makes me remember the late xtranormal video.

Kudos, yes, they continue to do a great work (for me developing the IQ series with touch and Sensor plus that was great, this is not so much). But "thanks phase one"?

Best regards,
J. Duncan


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synn

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Re: You wait years for CMOS backs to arrive, and then... Disappointment.
« Reply #32 on: January 25, 2014, 09:37:07 pm »

The fact that a representative believes that clients and potential clients need to be grateful to a company for improving their products it's either a joke I did not get or a symptom of the issues with the medium format market. It makes me remember the late xtranormal video.

Kudos, yes, they continue to do a great work (for me developing the IQ series with touch and Sensor plus that was great, this is not so much). But "thanks phase one"?

Best regards,
J. Duncan




Yes, I would say thanks Phase One. In an industry where too many threw the towel in too early in the game, they are one of the last remaining, pushing the limits consistently. more so than their competition.
Maybe that bleeding edge technology is not accessible to everyone (Myself included), but that doesn't mean it will benefit you and the way you shoot. This is a first gen product and with Phase' market positioning, it's not surprising to see them price it in such a way that there's a significant ROI per sold product. But in the longer term, the newly developed tech will trickle down into more accessible products. I won't be surprised if we see a Leaf equivalent with slightly gimped features (Shorter max exposure time, e.g.) in a year's time with a considerably more reasonable price tag.

I am pretty sure that the pre launch market research Phase did showed them that there would be enough orders at this price point to meet their KPIs for this project. No company worth its name would do a suicidal price positioning without these insights.

We also don't know yet what sort of upgrade paths would be offered for this model. Let's wait till Steve and Doug can throw some light on this?

Then of course, there is the competition from Sweden and Japan. Who arguably wouldn't be driven to push hard if it wasn't for phase pushing the technological limits in the first place.

Think about it like how the drive by wire tech developed for an aspirational and very inaccessible product from a while ago; the Ferrari 458 made its way to your average Fiat in a few years time. If Ferrari didn't sell a few of them at six figures; that tech might have never seen the light of the day.
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Steve Hendrix

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Re: You wait years for CMOS backs to arrive, and then... Disappointment.
« Reply #33 on: January 25, 2014, 09:51:10 pm »

The fact that a representative believes that clients and potential clients need to be grateful to a company for improving their products it's either a joke I did not get or a symptom of the issues with the medium format market. It makes me remember the late xtranormal video.

Kudos, yes, they continue to do a great work (for me developing the IQ series with touch and Sensor plus that was great, this is not so much). But "thanks phase one"?

Best regards,
J. Duncan





J -

Don't take me too literally or seriously.  :P  There - see my funny face emoticon? Just opening the thought for another perspective viewpoint. I didn't say I "believe that clients and potential clients need to be grateful to a company for improving their products". But no, it's not a joke. By saying "Thanks" I refer to the many who have been vocal about their desire for high ISO capability from MFD. Well - they now have it. Whether they want to say thanks or not, that's up to them. But more as a contrast to pooping on the party because version 1.0 doesn't have this and that, it's not a bad alternative.

And yes, it is true, I don't work for Phase One, but I do represent their products. I also represent my clients who use them.


Steve Hendrix
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gerald.d

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Re: You wait years for CMOS backs to arrive, and then... Disappointment.
« Reply #34 on: January 25, 2014, 10:15:17 pm »

Danish engineers are not too expensive, high taxes etc just as here in Sweden, but compared to the US salaries are low. So development cost is likely not much higher than if made in US. Mounting cost will be more expensive than if made in China but I doubt it would be more than $1k per back in extra salary cost (and that is already a high figure), can't be too many hours in mounting. If it was the mounting would have been outsourced already. Equipment costs for companies are about the same in Denmark as otherwhere as companies don't pay tax the same way as individuals. So I don't think company location is the answer. If it was Hasselblad could not be as "cheap", Sweden and Denmark are very similar in terms of costs.


http://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-living/compare_countries_result.jsp?country1=United+States&country2=Denmark
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Brian Hirschfeld

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Re: You wait years for CMOS backs to arrive, and then... Disappointment.
« Reply #35 on: January 25, 2014, 10:25:17 pm »

It was a long wait for CMOS to come to MF and then this disappointing IQ250 arrives.

A step back into large crop factors
Just 50mp
No EVF output
Same back form and features (or lack thereof)
Same crazy price at $35,000


I'm sorry, but does any of that really surprise you? All digital sensor sizes started out as sub-ff sensors with crop factors. were lower MP, limited in features and expensive. Why would it surprise you that the first CMOS MFDB sensor would be expensive and somewhat limited in its offering? Further why would you expect a PhaseOne medium format back to be affordable? thats not the market they are going for. 

And I would love to see a poll of who here would shoot a MFDB system with an EVF? I wouldn't, personally I can't stand EVF's and prefer optical viewfinders, not sure how universal that view is but I certainly know its a contentious topic as well.
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RobertJ

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Re: You wait years for CMOS backs to arrive, and then... Disappointment.
« Reply #36 on: January 25, 2014, 10:31:30 pm »

I guess we'll have to wait another 4 or 5 years for a full-frame 645 CMOS back with 80+MP?  Now THAT'S what I want on my view camera.  With this new back, it's like MF digital starting all over again, back in the old days, with cropped sensors and now 50MP, instead of 11, or 16, or 22. :)  I'll be waiting...

In the meantime, I think there's still way more goodness to be squeezed out of 35mm.  50MP+ seems legit, mostly because of new lenses like the Otus, or the Zeiss 135 f/2 APO.  Then there's other sensor technologies like Sigma Foveon.  What if Sony/Nikon or Canon develop their own?  Sony currently has a patent for a 3 layer sensor...
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Brian Hirschfeld

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Re: You wait years for CMOS backs to arrive, and then... Disappointment.
« Reply #37 on: January 25, 2014, 10:32:44 pm »

With this new back, it's like MF digital starting all over again, back in the old days, with cropped sensors and now 50MP, instead of 11, or 16, or 22. :)  I'll be waiting...

My point exactly!
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narikin

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Re: You wait years for CMOS backs to arrive, and then... Disappointment.
« Reply #38 on: January 25, 2014, 11:33:59 pm »

Steve,

With respect, it is slightly disappointing. We are not at the beginning of the MF market. CCD has matured and we get a great product. To ask us now to embrace CCD, it needs to be on the same level or offer a compelling series of features impossible to get with CCD. For me, the IQ250 is not it.

It is very much a Gen 1 product and I understand that is the way it works, but as a gen 1 product, there is insufficient features/reason for me to buy it. Higher ISO and an improved LiveView is simply not enough. Who wants an EVF? I do. I would like to have that option, I'd like when my camera is up super high or low to have an external monitor or EVF at a convenient level to review focus. Is that asking too much from CMOS? I don't think so.

Equally important, do I want to step back into sub full frame and crop factors? No thank you. I left that behind 4 years ago, and will not go back. It seems like a decision Sony's accountants have made, rather than the engineers or Phase. I have no wish to submit to that.

I love Phase One and what they have done, but will wait for a G2 product. Hopefully an IQ3 series will be announced at Photokina. If that has 60+ Mp, and external viewer options, I'll buy in. Otherwise, I'm happy with my IQ180, and see zero reason to churn.

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jduncan

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Re: You wait years for CMOS backs to arrive, and then... Disappointment.
« Reply #39 on: January 26, 2014, 12:32:53 am »


J -

Don't take me too literally or seriously.  :P  There - see my funny face emoticon? Just opening the thought for another perspective viewpoint. I didn't say I "believe that clients and potential clients need to be grateful to a company for improving their products". But no, it's not a joke. By saying "Thanks" I refer to the many who have been vocal about their desire for high ISO capability from MFD. Well - they now have it. Whether they want to say thanks or not, that's up to them. But more as a contrast to pooping on the party because version 1.0 doesn't have this and that, it's not a bad alternative.

And yes, it is true, I don't work for Phase One, but I do represent their products. I also represent my clients who use them.


Steve Hendrix
Capture Integration

Je, Ok. I was wondering since english is not my first language some time "it slips through my fingers".

Back to the discussion I still expecting that this is the first model with the first sensor and better things are coming.
The pricing is problematic but this are tiny companies that can't simple trow away existing models stock etc. So pricing was tricky.

I hope they (all of them including Pentax) sale of bunch of this to keep Sony interest.
Hasselblad insisted that the camera is for some people that needs specific thinks that this back gives.

I believe the same run for Phase.
Best regards,
J. Duncan
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