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Author Topic: You wait years for CMOS backs to arrive, and then... Disappointment.  (Read 50175 times)

hjulenissen

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Re: You wait years for CMOS backs to arrive, and then... Disappointment.
« Reply #40 on: January 26, 2014, 06:34:24 am »

but we are not talking about exotic materials. mfdb and nikon/sony d800 use the same materials. i can understand difference in price for a rolls vs bmw where different materials are used. in the mfdb you have a sensor, the most expensive part, processors, etc. the same as the d800. is the sensor 12x the price of a sony 24x36 sensor? i think not. the sensor prices i have seen bandied about on various forums for this new sensor  is about $3k. yes mfdb prices have always been high, but like any product, the sensor prices would drop if more were used and if mfdb prices were lower you would sell more. i wouldn't be surprised if sony gets into the production of medium format cameras and undercuts everyone.
>FF sensor is an exotic material.

The BMW M5 has (I would guess) something like a V8 5 liter engine producing 500HP. And it is made re-using crash-tests and interior and what not from a series that sells a load of units.

If a small company was to manufacture a car bettering the M5, they might fit it with a V12 6 liter engine (or whatever is a relevant performance metric). But developing components from ground up for a 1000 customers (or purchasing exotic components from suppliers that target 10000 customers) will be a lot more expensive per horsepower or whatever compared to the well-oiled german assembly line shipping 100000 units.

Once you put a really expensive, exotic engine into a car, my guess is that other expenses tends to increase as well. What is the point of a large engine if you do not upgrade the brakes and road-handling at the same time? There is some "balance" to a given design, and fitting a Fiat Punto with and enormous motor is probably not well-balanced. So what would it cost for a garage company to build something that matches the BMW M5 from ground up, then exceed the M5 performance with a considerable margin, then target 1000 sold units? I guess that will cost a lot per customer, only for the manufacturer to break even.

Of course, there are reasons to still purchase an exotic car. BMW has to do certain trade-offs to target a broad audience (e.g. global environmental demands, isofix for seating your kids in the back), while a boutique manufacturer can afford to target a smaller niche (i.e. those who care mainly about performance on a track). The more unusual your requirements are, the more likely that the inherent "inefficiency" of a small boutique manufacturer is cancelled by them being able to make more accurately what your requirements are.

I believe that Toyota are making a super-car that is not supposed to break even. It only serves as a marketing-tool (and possibly technology playground). When you have a really big player with such motivation, it must be really hard for those who build such cars to pay the rent.

-h
« Last Edit: January 26, 2014, 06:42:42 am by hjulenissen »
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Manoli

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Re: You wait years for CMOS backs to arrive, and then... Disappointment.
« Reply #41 on: January 26, 2014, 08:39:45 am »

Phase One only needs their products to be worth it to their target market in the quantity they require ... And their target market being those who desire their products and can afford such prices.

That is it in a nutshell.
It doesn't matter how much anyone thinks a medium format CCD or CMOS sensor should cost and whether that justifies the ultimate price tag. It's irrelevant.

Confirmation , as if confirmation were needed,  that the target market are well heeled amateurs more concerned with 'bling' than readily identifiable technological improvements. If the target market were 'pros' then presumably considerations of ROI would enter the equation.

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gerald.d

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Re: You wait years for CMOS backs to arrive, and then... Disappointment.
« Reply #42 on: January 26, 2014, 09:09:48 am »

Confirmation , as if confirmation were needed,  that the target market are well heeled amateurs more concerned with 'bling' than readily identifiable technological improvements. If the target market were 'pros' then presumably considerations of ROI would enter the equation.



I don't get this kind of comment. I really don't.

Whether pro or amateur, clearly not every back is suitable for every scenario.

Whilst I'd love to own the entire IQ2 series (80 for the ultimate in resolution, 60 for the long exposure capabilities, 60 Achromatic for the purity, and 50 for creating 8K timelapses and also probably aerial photography), I can realistically only afford one. And I've not yet bitten the bullet on deciding which (if any) to up/cross-grade from my IQ180 to.

But the thing is, if one is a good professional photographer, then I can't for the life of me understand why one wouldn't be able to afford at least one of these backs.

Depreciation over 3 years on these things would appear to be around 60% - that's if you buy new from a dealer, and sell privately. So let's consider the most expensive of the lot - the 260 Achromatic. $49K with the value added warranty. Probably worth - at an absolute minimum - $20K after 3 years. That's 29K of depreciation, or a little over 800 bucks a month. Assuming you work just 10 days a month, that's under a hundred bucks a day.

So I actually think Steve is spot on with his comment - these backs are for those who desire them, and who can afford them. Well-heeled amateur or pro alike.

For a decent pro, the ROI would be a no-brainer.

As regards to your comment about well heeled amateurs being more concerned with "bling", than with readily identifiable technological improvements, I'm pretty sure that round these parts you won't find many of those, so perhaps you should be throwing out that insult somewhere else.
« Last Edit: January 26, 2014, 09:11:31 am by gerald.d »
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ndevlin

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Re: You wait years for CMOS backs to arrive, and then... Disappointment.
« Reply #43 on: January 26, 2014, 09:22:27 am »


The big news for me, as a die-hard MF and LF shooter from the days of yore, is that I can finally look forward to the thrill I used to get from slipping a speedload of Fujichrome 1600 into my 4x5 field camera and capturing the majesty of the natural world at a level of graininess that traditional Ektachrome 64 never offered. 

And, for studio and location portraiture, I will finally be able to shoot at 1/800th at f22, opposed at the 1/800th @f8 I'm now stuck with.   

 ;)

Perhaps the biggest innovation is the fact that used 60MP backs are now going to be available sub-$15k.  Now that is good news.

[inset many i'm-saying-this-with-a-smile emoticons]

- N.
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Nick Devlin   @onelittlecamera        ww

Theodoros

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Re: You wait years for CMOS backs to arrive, and then... Disappointment.
« Reply #44 on: January 26, 2014, 09:33:05 am »

I don't get this kind of comment. I really don't.

Whether pro or amateur, clearly not every back is suitable for every scenario.

I think what he means (and I would agree on this) is that pros don't get backs to be used on the same task that it can be performed with alternative an cheaper equipment... In other words, they can have LV and 6400 Iso as good with a much cheaper DSLR and even match the DOF (using faster lens) while gain the aperture difference in their favour to improve LL quality further (by reducing ISO)… Hence, they would prefer an "old tradition" MFDB that would add them the "CCD magic" (and save the change)… I also think he means (correct again), that MP count is the least pros consider to their choices… All the above is amateur criteria.
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JV

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Re: You wait years for CMOS backs to arrive, and then... Disappointment.
« Reply #45 on: January 26, 2014, 09:42:04 am »

But the thing is, if one is a good professional photographer, then I can't for the life of me understand why one wouldn't be able to afford at least one of these backs.

For the price of an IQ250 you can buy a Leica S AND a Leica M…

If that does not illustrate how ridiculous the price setting of Phase One has become then I don't know anymore...

If Pentax were to put out a camera with the same sensor and a price tag of around $10K it would even become more obvious...

Joris.
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gerald.d

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Re: You wait years for CMOS backs to arrive, and then... Disappointment.
« Reply #46 on: January 26, 2014, 09:42:34 am »

I think what he means (and I would agree on this) is that pros don't get backs to be used on the same task that it can be performed with alternative an cheaper equipment... In other words, they can have LV and 6400 Iso as good with a much cheaper DSLR and even match the DOF (using faster lens) while gain the aperture difference in their favour to improve LL quality further (by reducing ISO)… Hence, they would prefer an "old tradition" MFDB that would add them the "CCD magic" (and save the change)
… I also think he means (correct again), that MP count is the least pros consider to their choices… All the above is amateur criteria.

There's no argument that for some - in fact, undoubtedly the vast majority of - pros, a MFDB of any persuasion does not make any financial sense.

But clearly there are plenty of pros out there for whom it does. And the financial side of it is not an issue.

And megapixels is amateur creteria?

Really?

Humour me - in excess of precisely which number does the megapixel count suddenly become redundant for all professional photographers?

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gerald.d

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Re: You wait years for CMOS backs to arrive, and then... Disappointment.
« Reply #47 on: January 26, 2014, 09:49:58 am »

For the price of an IQ250 you can buy a Leica S AND a Leica M…
So what?

For the price of a Leica M alone, I could buy a Sony A7r and a bunch of lenses.

The M still sells.

Quote
If that does not illustrate how ridiculous the price setting of Phase One has become then I don't know anymore...
You may find it ridiculous - I was simply demonstrating that, for some people, it could be perfectly justified from a financial perspective.

Quote
If Pentax were to put out a camera with the same sensor and a price tag of around $10K it would even become more obvious...

Joris.
That's already happened though.

645D vs IQ140.

I'm quite sure a lot of people found it very tough to justify the price of an IQ140 against the 645D.

Plenty of people managed it though, and I'm sure they weren't all amateurs.
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torger

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Re: You wait years for CMOS backs to arrive, and then... Disappointment.
« Reply #48 on: January 26, 2014, 10:18:05 am »

I think some get a bit offended when a product is introduced with a price so high it's clear that the manufacturer are not interested in doing business with them. I think they say "if your business don't make enough money to afford the price we choose to set on our camera, then you're not worthy" ;D

I can't help getting a bit offended myself by this type of pricing, it feels like an act of snobbery. But of course, Phase One is free to charge whatever they want for their product, and the competition is free to make an equally good or better product with a lower price if they want to and can. While charging the most with a wide margin for a digital back, Phase One has so far succeeded in providing the best feature set, and that's their key to being able to have these prices.

Phase One is still in a good position to maintain this lead. Leaf have their hands tied of course, from being a competitor they been downgraded to Phase One's own budget brand (which must be a dreadful situation for any loyal Leaf engineer). Hasselblad have a long way to go in terms of digital back platform to be able to provide a feature set as modern as Phase One's. Sinar's technology is even more primitive (still very effective in their tethered niche of course).
« Last Edit: January 26, 2014, 10:24:55 am by torger »
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JV

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Re: You wait years for CMOS backs to arrive, and then... Disappointment.
« Reply #49 on: January 26, 2014, 11:15:09 am »

Gerald,

Phase One used to position its products as photographic tools for which you had to pay a premium.

Now they position them as luxury goods for which you have to pay a significantly higher premium.

That is a big change and clearly not one appreciated by everybody.

I too find the price setting of Phase One insulting and arrogant but as long as people buy their products they are unlikely to change.  They might even continue to increase the price with every new generation.

Phase One does not care about people who moan about price.  They do not belong to their target audience.

Joris.
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gerald.d

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Re: You wait years for CMOS backs to arrive, and then... Disappointment.
« Reply #50 on: January 26, 2014, 11:30:33 am »

Gerald,

Phase One used to position its products as photographic tools for which you had to pay a premium.

Now they position them as luxury goods for which you have to pay a significantly higher premium.

Huh?

/disengage
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RichDesmond

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Re: You wait years for CMOS backs to arrive, and then... Disappointment.
« Reply #51 on: January 26, 2014, 11:42:40 am »

...I too find the price setting of Phase One insulting and arrogant...

Wow...just......wow. :(

I completely fail to see how a person could be insulted by a company's pricing on a product. If it doesn't fit your needs or offer you enough value to be worth the price, then don't buy it. Simple. You're certainly no worse off than you were a week ago, when you couldn't buy a CMOS back at any price.

And the only arrogance I see is from a bunch of people with zero knowledge of how much it cost Phase One to bring this product to market going on and on about how wrong/insulting/offensive/exploitative/immoral/whatever the price is.
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Vladimirovich

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Re: You wait years for CMOS backs to arrive, and then... Disappointment.
« Reply #52 on: January 26, 2014, 11:53:55 am »

when you couldn't buy a CMOS back at any price.
registration distance allows to use modified CMOS cameras (like A7r) as backs in some applications (w/ whatever limitations of course, but the price, the price !)  ;)
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LKaven

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Re: You wait years for CMOS backs to arrive, and then... Disappointment.
« Reply #53 on: January 26, 2014, 12:00:07 pm »

[...]

I completely fail to see how a person could be insulted by a company's pricing on a product. If it doesn't fit your needs or offer you enough value to be worth the price, then don't buy it. Simple. You're certainly no worse off than you were a week ago, when you couldn't buy a CMOS back at any price.

And the only arrogance I see is from a bunch of people with zero knowledge of how much it cost Phase One to bring this product to market going on and on about how wrong/insulting/offensive/exploitative/immoral/whatever the price is.

Market pressure and criticism from prospective customers gives a company a way to improve, to compete better, and to make more money.  You should vote with your mouth as well as your wallet.

JV

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Re: You wait years for CMOS backs to arrive, and then... Disappointment.
« Reply #54 on: January 26, 2014, 12:09:49 pm »

I completely fail to see how a person could be insulted by a company's pricing on a product. If it doesn't fit your needs or offer you enough value to be worth the price, then don't buy it.

I can ensure you that I have no intention of buying it.  I thought I was pretty clear on that.

And the only arrogance I see is from a bunch of people with zero knowledge of how much it cost Phase One to bring this product to market going on and on about how wrong/insulting/offensive/exploitative/immoral/whatever the price is.

I am a customer of Phase One and have been shooting a Phase One back for 4 years.  I also own another digital back.

May I ask you what makes you so much more knowledgeable and qualified to make the comments that you made?

« Last Edit: January 26, 2014, 12:11:41 pm by JV »
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RichDesmond

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Re: You wait years for CMOS backs to arrive, and then... Disappointment.
« Reply #55 on: January 26, 2014, 12:13:47 pm »

Market pressure and criticism from prospective customers gives a company a way to improve, to compete better, and to make more money.  You should vote with your mouth as well as your wallet.

Units sold will tell P1 a lot more about the correctness of their pricing than will listening to a bunch of internet caterwauling. :)
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Christoph C. Feldhaim

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Re: You wait years for CMOS backs to arrive, and then... Disappointment.
« Reply #56 on: January 26, 2014, 12:13:52 pm »

The problem of the pricing is very simple.

Envy.

In the moment I am not in a situation to buy such a great back and according system.
I envy people who have the change to do so.
But I won't piss in the pool because of that.

Regards
~Chris

RichDesmond

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Re: You wait years for CMOS backs to arrive, and then... Disappointment.
« Reply #57 on: January 26, 2014, 12:22:29 pm »

I can ensure you that I have no intention of buying it.  I thought I was pretty clear on that.
Yes, you were. I just don't understand all the emotion accompanying that decision.

Quote

I am a customer of Phase One and have been shooting a Phase One back for 4 years.  I also own another digital back.

May I ask you what makes you so much more knowledgeable and qualified to make the comments that you made?


That's my point, I don't have any relevant knowledge, and neither do any of the people complaining about the price.
« Last Edit: January 26, 2014, 12:24:12 pm by RichDesmond »
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JV

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Re: You wait years for CMOS backs to arrive, and then... Disappointment.
« Reply #58 on: January 26, 2014, 12:33:40 pm »

In the moment I am not in a situation to buy such a great back and according system.
I envy people who have the change to do so.
But I won't piss in the pool because of that.

Christoph,

I fail to see how I am pissing in the pool.  Phase One backs are truly excellent and easily the best on the market in my opinion.  That is why it is so unfortunate that so few people have access to them.  To a certain extent I can rationally explain the price difference between Phase One and the competition by the fact that the Phase One product is better.  I am purely talking about the back here, not about the camera.  The rest of the price difference is just Phase One charging whatever they feel they can get away with.

It is obviously their good right to do so but please allow me as a customer to not feel happy about that and to challenge that and to not unconditionally open my wallet.

And please allow me as a customer to say that if I were to re-invest in MF digital it would be Leica, Hasselblad or Pentax, precisely for these reasons.

That's all.  Nothing more.

Thanks, Joris.
« Last Edit: January 26, 2014, 12:35:28 pm by JV »
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LKaven

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Re: You wait years for CMOS backs to arrive, and then... Disappointment.
« Reply #59 on: January 26, 2014, 12:41:21 pm »

That's my point, I don't have any relevant knowledge, and neither do any of the people complaining about the price.

Sure we do.  We know the 645D costs < $7500.  We know Pentax was paying under $1000 for that sensor. 

This sensor doesn't cost all that much more.  Moreover -- this sensor delivers the entire package, including amplifier and A-to-D..it delivers the digital product, and for the most part "the look".  There isn't much a boutique manufacturer can add to this, unlike the earlier sensors which required extensive R&D to implement well. 

There is room for a commodity MF DSLR market.  Nikon, Canon, and of course, Pentax could fast follow in months with implementations of this Sony chip at the $10,000 price mark.  So we are more than entitled to ask whether the premium is still worth it. 

If people ask for what they want, they can eventually get it.  If they don't, they won't.  Acquiesce, and you lose.
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