You wait years for CMOS backs to arrive, and then... Disappointment.

[eronald]

Steve,

 If you want to set up as a seller of luxury goods, that's your right.

 However, this forum still has some people on it who take pictures, or like high tech, and are not all about bling. And I think that you are being served notice that these guys will run, not walk, to B&H and Pentax, to purchase the same technology without the gold trimmings.

 If I may be allowed the analogy, many of the guys here know they can eat at Mc Donald 's for $10, but they are looking for a really, really good steakhouse where one can get a steak and beer and apple pie and coffee for what seems a big lot of money eg. $100 a head, while you have switched to fancy cuisine and very nice wines at a 4x markup (like every prestige restaurant) leading to $500 and up dinner prices. This may be the business model for upscale restaurants, but as we're not part of the "it" crowd, we don't understand the necessity for the sommelier experience and will avoid the extra expense.

 
Edmund

I'm not offended that Mercedes makes a vehicle that is out of my price range. I'm not offended that Chevrolet doesn't make higher quality cars. (Note - I don't really know that much hands on about either brand). I understand where Torger comes from because the price difference is so great, even compared to cars. But my point really is that medium format digital has been this way for over 20 years. This is how it is and how it has always been.

Maybe Pentax can change that or impact that. They have not so far. But I don't know if Pentax makes money with the 645D. Just because you can make a product for under $10,000 doesn't mean it's worth it to do so - especially if that is your only product line.


Steve Hendrix
Capture Integration

[bcooter]

 
It's marketing more than engineering

It's want more than need.

Phase took a page out of the high price marketing playbook.

Build interest through exclusivity based on costs.

This camera is a marketing excersize more than a technical change.  After all higher iso cmos cameras, that do much more than the phase have been out for years.

Phase is good at identifying a subset of a market, keeping a high entry price (which makes buyers believe there is something exclusive in the purchase) and staying on that theme.

Actually they never move from that message.

You have to hand it to them, because here is a digital company that walked into the professional world from who? to oh yea I've heard of them, to sure I use a Phase.

Anyway, Phase's goal is to identify markets and hold their margins which may not make some people happy, but it works for them.

First it was professionals, who felt they had to upgrade to ever new model, until the advertising wolrd crashed and  other lower costs cameras filled the void.

Then Phase targeted the advanced amateur, but honestly how many digital backs can that market absorb, so now the've targeted the only two private markets left.

Wedding and active/lifestyle.  

The Phase back probably isn't the best tool for those photographic styles, but it does separate the standard wedding photographer from the rabble, when the photographer says, my  cameras and lenses cost $50,000 and DON''t look like your cousin's Nikon or Canon.

This helps the photographer justify higher fees, even if the camera won't deliver anything better than cameras costing 1/10th the price.

Don't think for a moment that  the underlying sales message you hear  is "some can afford it, some can't" isn't well thought out.

Phase is good at this type of market placement and knows how to price in a way that purposely gives the impression that they're the best.

They also know how to play the game with the bloggists, the industry publications and pull them onto their side.

Look at the pdn samples and read the article.  The imagery is 180 degrees from the praise, but then again reality and perception rarely cross points and it doesn't matter because the people that get lured into this phase back are gong to buy regardless of the final image.

I showed this snap of 4 cameras, a leica S2, a Contax with a p21+ back, a new omd em1 and a leica m-8.  None but the olympus is cutting edge, all have a place and combined they costs the same as the new cmos phase back.

That compilation of cameras won't change anyone's mind one bit, any more than if Pentax or Sony comes out with the same sensor in a $5,000 or $10,000 camera.    Phase isn't going for that market.



They're going for the "you can't afford it market, but to keep up you should".

IMO

BC

[eronald]

As a fashion photographer, I guess you can recognize upscale branding methods when you see them.

Edmund

It's marketing more than engineering

It's want more than need.

Phase took a page out of the high price marketing playbook.

Build interest through exclusivity based on costs.

This camera is a marketing excersize more than a technical change.  After all higher iso cmos cameras, that do much more than the phase have been out for years.

Phase is good at identifying a subset of a market, keeping a high entry price (which makes buyers believe there is something exclusive in the purchase) and staying on that theme.

Actually they never move from that message.

You have to hand it to them, because here is a digital company that walked into the professional world from who? to oh yea I've heard of them, to sure I use a Phase.

Anyway, Phase's goal is to identify markets and hold their margins.

First it was professionals, who felt they had to upgrade to ever new model, until advertising crashed, other lower costs cameras because just as good so that market slowed down, then Phase targeted the advanced amateur, but honestly how many digital backs can that market absorb, so now the've targeted the only two private markets left.

Wedding and active/lifestyle. 

The Phase back probably isn't the best tool for those photographic styles, but it does separate the standard wedding photographer from the rabble, when the photographer says, my  cameras and lenses cost $50,000 and DON''t look like your cousins Nikon or Canon.

This helps the photographer justify higher fees, even if the camera won't deliver in this genres anything spectacular.

Don't think for a moment that  the underlying sales message you hear  is "some can afford it, some can't" isn't well thought out.

Phase is good at this type of market placement and knows how to price in a way that purposely gives the impression that they're the best.

They also know how to play the game with the bloggists, the industry publications and pull them onto their side.

Look at the pdn samples and read the article.  The imagery is 180 degrees from the praise, but then again reality and perception rarely cross points and it doesn't matter because the people that get lured into this phase back are gong to buy regardless of the final image.

I showed a snap of 4 cameras, a leica S2, a Contax with a p21+ back, a new omd em1 and a leica m-8.  None but the olympus is cutting edge, all have a place and combined they costs the same as the new cmos phase back.

That compilation of cameras won't change anyone's mind one bit, any more than if Pentax or Sony comes out with the same sensor in a $5,000 or $10,000 camera.    Phase isn't going for that market.



They're going for the "you can't afford it market".

IMO

BC

[synn]

I took a look at all the MF reviews on this site, last night.

every single ground breaking release. The "tiny" sensor P20, the P25, a few Aptuses, couple of blads... Everything that was a first gen product except the Pentax was priced in the same ballpark as the IQ250. Right from the very start.

I think some here are trying to make a rule out of what is, an exception.

[BernardLanguillier]

Sony/Phase partnership more than likely has been going on for over a year Doug article will possibly shed more light on that.  Sony has the impetus and now the fab process to get to 50MP and I am sure they can scale the process.  Then it gets interesting CMOS vs CMOS.  

The real question is the value for Sony semi-conductor (a separate entity from Sony cameras with their own business objectives).

The volumes Phaseone + Hassy will sell are probably 100 times too low to get a first meeting compared to their traditional mainstream sensor business.

Either they have a committed order from some other players for much larger volumes or they are prototyping different business models targeting more niche applications.

The first is the most likely which leads to the question who this may be. Pentax is one obvious candidate, Sony camera themselves is another one (the idea of a built-in fixed lens body with a 35mm f2.8 equivalent lens is very appealing for sure), Canon is probably sticking to their slowly suicidal in-house sensor only strategy... but what about Nikon?

It is of course a bit of a stretch, but...
- They made a very clear public commitment to focus on high end products with bigger margins,
- They have a very strong long term partnership with Sony semi-conductor and have till now been the first to introduce high end 35mm Sony sensors,
- They have been very quiet since the D800 with only point releases that must not have used many resources (I include the Df in this category),
- Their lenses release has been slow at best and I am not sure that the after effects of the tsunami are sufficient to explain this,
- They have several patents for modular systems,...

What if the D5 were a modular camera able to take both the new Sony sensor, a new set of very high end Otus class lenses to support it with an adapter to enable to mounting of 35mm sensors and legacy lenses?

It doesn't seem impossible to me.

Cheers,
Bernard

[eronald]

Sony make pro video equipment, and the whole japanese video industry wants to move beyond 4K, which means they need prototype cameras to create some experimental programming; it is likely that Sony will be making a greater number of in-house hi-rez prototype video cameras than Phase will ever buy chips, and they will be selling such next-gen video cameras to everyone in the TV industry.   

Edmund

The real question is the value for Sony semi-conductor (a separate entity from Sony cameras with their own business objectives).

The volumes Phaseone + Hassy will sell are probably 100 times too low to get a first meeting compared to their traditional mainstream sensor business.

Either have a commited order from some other players for much larger volumes or they are prototyping different business models targeting more niche applications.
 
Cheers,
Bernard

[Steve Hendrix]

Steve,

 If you want to set up as a seller of luxury goods, that's your right.

 However, this forum still has some people on it who take pictures, or like high tech, and are not all about bling. And I think that you are being served notice that these guys will run, not walk, to B&H and Pentax, to purchase the same technology without the gold trimmings.

 If I may be allowed the analogy, many of the guys here know they can eat at Mc Donald 's for $10, but they are looking for a really, really good steakhouse where one can get a steak and beer and apple pie and coffee for what seems a big lot of money eg. $100 a head, while you have switched to fancy cuisine and very nice wines at a 4x markup (like every prestige restaurant) leading to $500 and up dinner prices. This may be the business model for upscale restaurants, but as we're not part of the "it" crowd, we don't understand the necessity for the sommelier experience and will avoid the extra expense.

 
Edmund

I don't consider that I sell luxury goods. I sell solutions that cover a very wide range of price points, from $4,000 up (and up, and up...) to clients who want to have more of a supportive and interactive relationship before and especially after their purchase. My pursuit in our industry is to provide a valuable alternative to box mover, push the button receive the product, business models. I like to think there are enough in our industry who desire that service and our results have substantiated that.

The same can be said of Phase One. When I said "maybe Pentax can change that or impact that", it revealed my hope that medium format alternative solutions will one day be more accessible from a price standpoint to more users. It has, to a degree, by virtue of the second hand market, which we're extremely active in. But for the latest technology, I don't know if that day will ever happen, and if it does, I doubt it will be Phase One leading the charge.

We are an authorized Pentax dealer. I've put Pentax in front of plenty of people and the numbers that purchase are tiny. The product itself is viable, I feel. There's a lot about the 645D that I like. But to change the way that photographers purchase, they'll need to come a lot stronger to the party with those who are familiar with the more expensive contenders. The majority of our customers who can afford Phase One products (and Hasselblad and Leaf), simply aren't that interested, at least not enough to buy the product, when they can afford the other guys.

Until there is evidence that their business model no longer works, I don't see a reason for Phase One to change their "blingy" ways.


Steve Hendrix
Capture Integration

[eronald]

I don't consider that I sell luxury goods. I sell solutions that cover a very wide range of price points, from $4,000 up (and up, and up...) to clients who want to have more of a supportive and interactive relationship before and especially after their purchase. My pursuit in our industry is to provide a valuable alternative to box mover, push the button receive the product, business models. I like to think there are enough in our industry who desire that service and our results have substantiated that.

The same can be said of Phase One. When I said "maybe Pentax can change that or impact that", it revealed my hope that medium format alternative solutions will one day be more accessible from a price standpoint to more users. It has, to a degree, by virtue of the second hand market, which we're extremely active in. But for the latest technology, I don't know if that day will ever happen, and if it does, I doubt it will be Phase One leading the charge.

We are an authorized Pentax dealer. I've put Pentax in front of plenty of people and the numbers that purchase are tiny. The product itself is viable, I feel. There's a lot about the 645D that I like. But to change the way that photographers purchase, they'll need to come a lot stronger to the party with those who are familiar with the more expensive contenders. The majority of our customers who can afford Phase One products (and Hasselblad and Leaf), simply aren't that interested, at least not enough to buy the product, when they can afford the other guys.

Until there is evidence that their business model no longer works, I don't see a reason for Phase One to change their "blingy" ways.


Steve Hendrix
Capture Integration

Steve,

Could you explain more clearly what a value based MF solution would need to do to sell to your customers?
There's something I don't understand in what you say about Pentax.

Edmund

PS. the current announcement and pricing has clearly not gone down well with a big part of the LL crowd. I don't know why for certain, but maybe people are not faring well generally in this economy - fewer and fewer people have more and more of the money, and many of the others are not enjoying the novelty.

[Ken R]

It was a long wait for CMOS to come to MF and then this disappointing IQ250 arrives.

A step back into large crop factors
Just 50mp
No EVF output
Same back form and features (or lack thereof)
Same crazy price at $35,000

Yes an improvement in ISO, a better live view, and.... err.... that's it??  We waited years for this?

It can't even do 2fps? It has no line out for an external monitor/EVF? It can't shoot a 4k video let alone the 8k it potentially has, no matter how short the duration?

Very sad about this. I was ready to buy another back to complement my low ISO IQseries CCD one, and get the best of both worlds, but this is not worth it. It's very much Gen 1, rushed to market once Sony released the chip.

Maybe some company like RED will unlock the chips latent potential. Maybe a larger full frame chip will follow. Maybe the Live View/EVF out will come with IQ3 series, but this... gives me none of those. 

I'll pass.

Forum Folks are a tough crowd.

[MrSmith]

"Could you explain more clearly what a value based MF solution would need to do to sell to your customers?
There's something I don't understand in what you say about Pentax. "

I'm sure Steve will answer that question but here in London there is no rental/back-up and no rock solid tethering/processing/organising software. I can pick the phone up and have a leaf/phase/Hblad body or lens delivered in minutes, if there's something wrong with it a replacement is sent.
For some people not having that back-up rules out pentax (and to a certain extent Leica) I'm sure the pentax is a great camera but a lot of people see it as a landscape or amateur camera and not viable in a studio environment, I would happily use one if that back-up was there.

[synn]

"Could you explain more clearly what a value based MF solution would need to do to sell to your customers?
There's something I don't understand in what you say about Pentax. "

I'm sure Steve will answer that question but here in London there is no rental/back-up and no rock solid tethering/processing/organising software. I can pick the phone up and have a leaf/phase/Hblad body or lens delivered in minutes, if there's something wrong with it a replacement is sent.
For some people not having that back-up rules out pentax (and to a certain extent Leica) I'm sure the pentax is a great camera but a lot of people see it as a landscape or amateur camera and not viable in a studio environment, I would happily use one if that back-up was there.

This and a lack of any modern leaf shutter lenses.
I actually just recommended the 645D to a landscaper friend last week, but there is no way it would fit into my workflow.

Also, the Pentax dealer here is a box mover. Nothing more. 2 minutes on the phone with my Leaf dealer ensured me a demo of the IQ250 during a studio session I have in the future. Can't expect remotely the same for the 645D II.

[BernardLanguillier]

I'm sure Steve will answer that question but here in London there is no rental/back-up and no rock solid tethering/processing/organising software. I can pick the phone up and have a leaf/phase/Hblad body or lens delivered in minutes, if there's something wrong with it a replacement is sent.
For some people not having that back-up rules out pentax (and to a certain extent Leica) I'm sure the pentax is a great camera but a lot of people see it as a landscape or amateur camera and not viable in a studio environment, I would happily use one if that back-up was there.

I would think that Pentax has a long list of issues from a go to market standpoint to succeed in the "MFDB marketplace":
1. The margin value added resellers get or don't get. Why push a 645D when they can get 3 or 4 times the margin with an IQ280?
2. The fact that the camera is way too cheap. Many of the non pro buyers of Phaseone buy their products mostly because they are the most expensive ones. Again, high price is a feature in high end,
3. Support for the (probably minority) part of the MF customers who use their backs professionally. A real problem that would require the creation of a dedicated support framework that is probably not justified from a revenue standpoint, although their could be ways to mitigate this easily with explicit support packages decoupled from the price of the hardware,
4. Some capabilities like thethered shooting are available, but probably not performing quite as well as Phaseone's offerings or mostly not available like leaf shutter lenses which affects some applications.

Now, I am not sure that Pentax is interested to succeed in what I am referring to as the "MFDB marketplace". It is a tiny microcosm, way over-inflated here at LL, that is far from being as lucrative as the landscape/portrait crowd in most countries on earth where spending 10,000 US$ on a camera body is seen as a very extreme level of spending already. This is where the gross cash is to be made and this is the market Pentax is focusing on.

Their culture remains that of a mass market company. It doesn't mean that their product is not 100% as good, or even better, than corresponding products from Phaseon/Leaf/Hassy, just that they are not focusing on the same market segment.

Cheers,
Bernard

[carbonatoms]

i would like someone to explain to me why a sensor that is approx. 60% larger in surface area is 12x the price of d800/e.

Because it's not what it costs it is what it earns that is important to the (main) customer base of the MF manufacturers and they know it. This customer base is very small and so the price is very high both from a development perspective and a realistic demand point of view.

It is invalid (in my opinion) to compare its value or price (as some will) relative to say a Mercedes as a high end pro won't earn a dime through his ownership of a luxury motor. (yes there may be some real or imagined perceived value to be had from possession of a Mercedes in this mercurial world but lets not get into that)

The main user of this back or any high end MF back for that matter will be servicing the ad agencies who are servicing their clients (increasingly) global campaigns. Perfume, Health, Consumer products etc etc.

The agencies make their real profit through the media spend of their clients and this can make the not inconsiderable production budget pale in comparison and so demand the best possible flexibility to answer their clients needs.

The client demands a response from the agency to every whim. So a campaign shot for the glossies may get rolled out as a 48 sheet at some future point in one territory or another (or all) and its a very lucrative and competitive business from anyones perspective.

So shooting MF for big campaigns makes sense to the agencies qualitatively because it can be repurposed to 48 sheet, 6 sheet, bus related,  magazine campaign etc globally at any point the client decides they want to do such. (A smaller point is that the ratio of MF is well suited to magazine advertising particularly and in this arena the actual relative increase in surface area (over a D800) is increased via the aspect ratio of the media.)

The photographer who can win this work earns his/her real money through territory and usage rights, and when this is global it can be 10's of thousands of dollars for each territory / use.

The demand for a CMOS MF back is ultimately generated by the needs of the global brands as the advertising zeitgeist moves toward the real in many markets as they try to connect with their customers who now live in a social media world and advertising styles have shifted towards a more lo fi lifestyle look in many cases. Whilst these new channels to some degree diminish the need for such high quality the fact that these brands want through the line campaigns mean that the agencies need to provide even more flexibility in their creative product.

The new backs that have been announced this week are a direct response to this need.

Ultimately this is another pencil in the art box and very welcome it is to if your looking to be relevant in this way.

Phase One and Hass are pushing on, listening to and solving customers problems and bringing new solutions to try to answer these needs as part of an intelligent strategy to to remain relevant to the ultimate paymasters.

[eronald]

Their culture remains that of a mass market company. It doesn't mean that their product is not 100% as good, or even better, than corresponding products from Phaseon/Leaf/Hassy, just that they are not focusing on the same market segment.

Cheers,
Bernard

Yeah, sure, a mass market company that made an interchangeable lens interchangeable finder wooden-handled 6x7 body that needed a weight lifting class to qualify ownership

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Pentax_6×7_MU.JPG
Edmund

[TMARK]

That PDN review is painful.  The samples look like they go with another piece entirely.

They also know how to play the game with the bloggists, the industry publications and pull them onto their side.

Look at the pdn samples and read the article.  The imagery is 180 degrees from the praise, but then again reality and perception rarely cross points and it doesn't matter because the people that get lured into this phase back are gong to buy regardless of the final image.


IMO

BC

[JV]

Steve,

Could you explain more clearly what a value based MF solution would need to do to sell to your customers?
There's something I don't understand in what you say about Pentax.

Edmund

PS. the current announcement and pricing has clearly not gone down well with a big part of the LL crowd. I don't know why for certain, but maybe people are not faring well generally in this economy - fewer and fewer people have more and more of the money, and many of the others are not enjoying the novelty.

Adding to what is already said, in the US, only 3 lenses are made available through Pentax USA.

When you e.g. look on the website of B&H you will only see these 3 lenses (25, 55 and 90mm)

Other lenses apparently need to be ordered in Canada or on eBay.  Pentax USA does not seem to feel the need to import its own lenses…

It wouldn't be an issue for me personally but I can understand that this does not give everybody a good comfort level.

I would be interested to hear from Steve how he tackles this with his customers.

[TMARK]

The 645D is an incredible camera.  I even like that it uses SD cards.  I like that it has an FP shutter that lets you use every nice piece of legacy glass you own with an adapter.  I like its ISO1600.  I like that they are cheap as chips, what a new one can be had for $6k?  Gently used for $4800?  There is a lot to like if you can live with the limitations.  This is the camera wedding shooters should have as their BLING BLING camera.

I would think that Pentax has a long list of issues from a go to market standpoint to succeed in the "MFDB marketplace":
1. The margin value added resellers get or don't get. Why push a 645D when they can get 3 or 4 times the margin with an IQ280?
2. The fact that the camera is way too cheap. Many of the non pro buyers of Phaseone buy their products mostly because they are the most expensive ones. Again, high price is a feature in high end,
3. Support for the (probably minority) part of the MF customers who use their backs professionally. A real problem that would require the creation of a dedicated support framework that is probably not justified from a revenue standpoint, although their could be ways to mitigate this easily with explicit support packages decoupled from the price of the hardware,
4. Some capabilities like thethered shooting are available, but probably not performing quite as well as Phaseone's offerings or mostly not available like leaf shutter lenses which affects some applications.

Now, I am not sure that Pentax is interested to succeed in what I am referring to as the "MFDB marketplace". It is a tiny microcosm, way over-inflated here at LL, that is far from being as lucrative as the landscape/portrait crowd in most countries on earth where spending 10,000 US$ on a camera body is seen as a very extreme level of spending already. This is where the gross cash is to be made and this is the market Pentax is focusing on.

Their culture remains that of a mass market company. It doesn't mean that their product is not 100% as good, or even better, than corresponding products from Phaseon/Leaf/Hassy, just that they are not focusing on the same market segment.

Cheers,
Bernard

[bcooter]

The 645D is an incredible camera.  I even like that it uses SD cards.  I like that it has an FP shutter that lets you use every nice piece of legacy glass you own with an adapter.  I like its ISO1600.  I like that they are cheap as chips, what a new one can be had for $6k?  Gently used for $4800?  There is a lot to like if you can live with the limitations.  This is the camera wedding shooters should have as their BLING BLING camera.

I don't disagree, other than the 645d buffer is small and obviously for us it won't tether well.

But, you know marketing well, we probably see the same data, you understand how companies position themselves.

Phase has always come out first and pretty much complete.  Their achilies heel is the df and it's a good camera now, considering from where it started.

But phase had higher iso and longer exposures than blad, had a better software suite and from a company that no layman on the planet knows about them positioned themselves into the industrial luxury goods arena.

They didn't duck their heads and go for the cheap, Phase kept their prices high, actually they did a better job at it than most of their customers.

Now would a pentax be a better fit for most of this intended cmos market . . . probably but as Steve says, he puts them on the counter, they reach for the phase at more than twice price.

Would I . . . no cause I own two and don't need another, but at this stage of what I shoot I'd either go hasselblad or Leica, but that's just me.

Perception/reality.   You know the difference T.

IMO

BC

[EricWHiss]

That PDN review is painful.  The samples look like they go with another piece entirely.

Yeah Wow!  Painful is the right word for those for so many different reasons.

[Graham Welland]

2. The fact that the camera is way too cheap. Many of the non pro buyers of Phaseone buy their products mostly because they are the most expensive ones. Again, high price is a feature in high end,

 .....

Cheers,
Bernard

Bernard,

Your observation #2 is absurd. I know and have shot with a lot of non-pro Phase One shooters and I can absolutely positively say that is total nonsense. (I'm being polite at this point).

Now I would not deny that there are folks who simply want the best regardless of cost but that is NOT the same as buying things just because they are expensive.

However, if were we discussing Hassy Lunar & Stellar then you might be on to something.