You wait years for CMOS backs to arrive, and then... Disappointment.

[Hulyss]

This CMOS venture is a good thing. But, in my opinion, I prefer so far the CCD look, like I prefer more the M9 than the M240.

CMOS give more possibility and latitude, for sure, but I bet that the prices of CCD MFDB will not drop, even second hand, just because of the rendering.

This is why I'm not that impressed by this "half" event.

[Christoph C. Feldhaim]

...
It is obviously their good right to do so but please allow me as a customer to not feel happy about that and to challenge that and to not unconditionally open my wallet.
...

You know what - I can understand you well.
Very well.
I have been wishing for a digital back for some years now, and I was tormented with scanning MF film in the meantime.
Some unforseen incidents have prolonged this situation.
Now I am split between my new Fuji X-E2 camera and my Mamiya 7 ii- both very fine systems, but not exactly what I wanted.
I either do not feel happy seeing these incredible prices for digibacks.
But having such a system wouldn't make be a better photographer one bit.
(I don't say you would think that, just to get that out of the way.).
It can also be doubted it would allow me to take better images.
Resolution and definition are only one of many parameters determining an images quality - I am not talking technical quality here - I'm talking artistically.
HCB shot 35 mm film. Any cheap compact today is technically better than that (Roughly - I know - he had Leica magic glass ...).

If not for commercial reasons or the total crazy strive for ultimate resolution power we simply don't need these cameras and backs.
And the most important thing: Developing my attitude and path as a photographer does only marginally depend on tools.
Let go the unhealthy wish for a digital back and you'll find your self in heaven instantly.

Get a Holga !


Cheers
~Chris

[torger]

I don't think one should underestimate the complexity of supporting electronics for a CMOS sensor. Sure if you're just going to record an image at a slow pace, fine. But if you're going to display a live view usable for focusing it becomes a whole lot more complicated, quite a lot is required from the digital back platform. Phase One has probably already developed a lot of it, but if you look at competitors like Hasselblad they're still lagging behind, and Sinar don't even do displays any longer.

Still I don't think the price is this high just because of manufacturing and development cost, it's because customers are willing to pay and their whole business model with dealers and upgrade programs and trade-ins etc requires high prices to function well.

I think high-end digital backs sub $10K is possible with today's technology and market potential, but it requires a whole different business model and the current players are not going to change, even if they wanted it would be difficult for them and they'd probably lose substantial money in a transition period.

[narikin]

As the OP of this thread it's sad to see it degenerate into an argument solely about price, mostly by people who can't afford any Phase back, and compare it endlessly to a D800E, which is a very different beast. That is silly and not what this thread is about.

I simply wished to point out my disappointment that when CMOS finally arrived its in a fairly compromised form compared to what we expect from CMOS sensors here and now.  Fast shooting, video capable, high ISO, highest resolution, are the norm, but we only get a high ISO from that list. Going back to a fairly strong crop factor is also a big negative for contemporary MF back users who might have considered this product. I expect a few people at Phase were a little disappointed at Sonys decision to make a substantially less than FF sensor, but of course they can't really say so.

Hopefully an IQ3 back generation will arrive at Photokina, along with a new camera body. Maybe the 3rd generation IQ's will have faster frame rates, mini HDMI out ports for external monitors, thunderbird, and in the case of the CMOS sensor, an EVF connection port.

Meanwhile I agree with the poster on LuLa who posits an RXM by Sony with fixed Zeiss lens (40/50mm?) and this MF CMOS sensor, with optical /EVF finder options. That would be great, and I'd be first in line to buy.

[Vladimirovich]

I don't think one should underestimate the complexity of supporting electronics for a CMOS sensor. Sure if you're just going to record an image at a slow pace, fine. But if you're going to display a live view usable for focusing it becomes a whole lot more complicated, quite a lot is required from the digital back platform. Phase One has probably already developed a lot of it, but if you look at competitors like Hasselblad they're still lagging behind, and Sinar don't even do displays any longer.

there is nothing complex in that, a $100 cameras/cell phones do a better liveview (for years) than IQ250... you are not reading off the whole 50mp sensels from its sensor to feed liveview...

[Christoph C. Feldhaim]

I believe we can't really imagine what kind of fantastic image making machines are coming along our way the next years.
And I am sure it will be overwhelmingly awesometastic. The IQ250 surely is a great tool, despite the features it's lacking.

But the well understandable thrill about these technological developments should not let us forget what photography is about.

We are the victims of marketing specialists at the various companies playing with our delusions, especially narcissistic fantasies:
"The best tools for the best and most demanding photographers of the world..." - really - not my cup of tea and not where I want to go today ...

Cheers
~Chris

[torger]

there is nothing complex in that, a $100 cameras/cell phones do a better liveview (for years) than IQ250... you are not reading off the whole 50mp sensels from its sensor to feed liveview...

I wonder why Hasselblad is not able to do it then...

In mass markets like cell phones you'll find custom chips do the most fantastical things. Mass market in electronics means more features, lower prices and higher quality. When a small company make a digital back they can't just buy those readily designed mobile phone chips and use them, they must implement similar functionality themselves. The medium format companies are small fish. They are not Sony or Samsung.

[eronald]

I wonder why Hasselblad is not able to do it then...

In mass markets like cell phones you'll find custom chips do the most fantastical things. Mass market in electronics means more features, lower prices and higher quality. When a small company make a digital back they can't just buy those readily designed mobile phone chips and use them, they must implement similar functionality themselves. The medium format companies are small fish. They are not Sony or Samsung.

Actually, Sony is a VENDOR of camera sensors, and doubtless supply a reference design, dev boards etc. so getting a *camera* that writes out files (uncalibrated, with all defects)  from this chip or the Dalsa or the Kodak should be pretty easy - many of the guys on this forum could do it, even I could. But then you have all the issues related to stuff like reviewing images which means on-board Raw conversion, driving a display, overlaid menus, histograms, zebras, etc, that's creating a miniature PC with an operating system, and now you have liveview zoomed liveview etc. which means everything needs to happen *fast* with real-time constraints.

I think Sony probably supply a kit that can do much of this, because it's beyond the abilities of a new customer, but if you want to use your own base like Phase then it's a lot of R&D to mate what they give you to what your customers are already used to. And then there are all the calibration and Raw conversion issues which mean you can translate the data into a superb clean image without seams, bands, defects and color casts ...

Frankly I think that if Sony supply a good dev kit, someone starting from scratch might find it easier than the existing vendors.

Phase have probably invested about 2 years work of 3 or 4 engineers on this - at $150K/year total cost for a engineer in europe,  that translates into a couple of million dollars at least; so the break even point is to sell two or three hundred of these backs.

Some kids working from a a garage, sinking the dev time, and using the Sony kit as a base could probably make a camera for less than $3K cost if they can find a third part to create the chassis for them.

Edmund

[Theodoros]

Actually, Sony is a VENDOR of camera sensors, and doubtless supply a reference design, dev boards etc. so getting a *camera* that writes out files (uncalibrated, with all defects)  from this chip or the Dalsa or the Kodak should be pretty easy - many of the guys on this forum could do it, even I could. But then you have all the issues related to stuff like reviewing images which means on-board Raw conversion, driving a display, overlaid menus, histograms, zebras, etc, that's creating a miniature PC with an operating system, and now you have liveview zoomed liveview etc. which means everything needs to happen *fast* with real-time constraints.

I think Sony probably supply a kit that can do much of this, because it's beyond the abilities of a new customer, but if you want to use your own base like Phase then it's a lot of R&D to mate what they give you to what your customers are already used to. And then there are all the calibration and Raw conversion issues which mean you can translate the data into a superb clean image without seams, bands, defects and color casts ...

Frankly I think that if Sony supply a good dev kit, someone starting from scratch might find it easier than the existing vendors.

Phase have probably invested about 2 years work of 3 or 4 engineers on this - at $150K/year total cost for a engineer in europe,  that translates into a couple of million dollars at least; so the break even point is to sell two or three hundred of these backs.

Some kids working from a a garage, sinking the dev time, and using the Sony kit as a base could probably make a camera for less than $3K cost if they can find a third part to create the chassis for them.

Edmund

I don't think that those 3-4 engineers you state, make research for one back only...

[Steve Hendrix]

As the OP of this thread it's sad to see it degenerate into an argument solely about price, mostly by people who can't afford any Phase back, and compare it endlessly to a D800E, which is a very different beast. That is silly and not what this thread is about.

I simply wished to point out my disappointment that when CMOS finally arrived its in a fairly compromised form compared to what we expect from CMOS sensors here and now.  Fast shooting, video capable, high ISO, highest resolution, are the norm, but we only get a high ISO from that list. Going back to a fairly strong crop factor is also a big negative for contemporary MF back users who might have considered this product. I expect a few people at Phase were a little disappointed at Sonys decision to make a substantially less than FF sensor, but of course they can't really say so.

Hopefully an IQ3 back generation will arrive at Photokina, along with a new camera body. Maybe the 3rd generation IQ's will have faster frame rates, mini HDMI out ports for external monitors, thunderbird, and in the case of the CMOS sensor, an EVF connection port.

Meanwhile I agree with the poster on LuLa who posits an RXM by Sony with fixed Zeiss lens (40/50mm?) and this MF CMOS sensor, with optical /EVF finder options. That would be great, and I'd be first in line to buy.

It would have been nice to hit a grand slam home run out of the gate that ticked all the boxes. I understand the lament. But I'm sure there will be further development of the IQ/CMOS platform in then future.

Phase One has a legacy of beginning with a platform (P Series, then IQ Series) and enhancing that platform with infrastructure or chip technological advances in future generations. Photokina 2014 might be a little soon for a next IQ generation. I'm more hopeful of camera platform news, and really, especially for this product, that is a more important development IMO.


Steve Hendrix
Capture Integration

[eronald]

I don't think that those 3-4 engineers you state, make research for one back only...

It's not research, it's system integration. And yes, the next back with a Sony sensor will only take a few months to set up.

Edmund

[Steve Hendrix]

I'm not offended that Mercedes makes a vehicle that is out of my price range. I'm not offended that Chevrolet doesn't make higher quality cars. (Note - I don't really know that much hands on about either brand). I understand where Torger comes from because the price difference is so great, even compared to cars. But my point really is that medium format digital has been this way for over 20 years. This is how it is and how it has always been.

Maybe Pentax can change that or impact that. They have not so far. But I don't know if Pentax makes money with the 645D. Just because you can make a product for under $10,000 doesn't mean it's worth it to do so - especially if that is your only product line.


Steve Hendrix
Capture Integration

[Theodoros]

It's not research, it's system integration. And yes, the next back with a Sony sensor will only take a few months to set up.

Edmund

I would say "next Cmos back" instead of next "Sony sensor back'... Never the less, the cost can't be all applied to the first product only… Besides, it's reasonable to think of a Leaf version too.

[Theodoros]

I'm not offended that Mercedes makes a vehicle that is out of my price range. I'm not offended that Chevrolet doesn't make higher quality cars. (Note - I don't really know that much hands on about either brand). I understand where Torger comes from because the price difference is so great, even compared to cars. But my point really is that medium format digital has been this way for over 20 years. This is how it is and how it has always been.

Maybe Pentax can change that or impact that. They have not so far. But I don't know if Pentax makes money with the 645D. Just because you can make a product for under $10,000 doesn't mean it's worth it to do so - especially if that is your only product line.


Steve Hendrix
Capture Integration

Any information on what should be expected (when ?) from Leaf Steve with respect to the new sensor?

[Graham Welland]

The problem of the pricing is very simple.

Envy.

In the moment I am not in a situation to buy such a great back and according system.
I envy people who have the change to do so.
But I won't piss in the pool because of that.

Regards
~Chris

Chris,

You may have a point.

I'm in the same boat as you for the moment and couldn't easily pay cash and buy an IQ250 on Monday. However, if I were a pro then Phase One have made it very attractive to lease a back vs the full capital expenditure.

[Paul2660]

The game/price point changer may be coming from the 35mm world at least in a CMOS chip.  Nikon is coming out with something for a D4x and it's been talked about for over a year as a 50 to 54 MP chip.  Canon has supposedly got the 3Dx coming or some new big DSLR.  

Sony/Phase partnership more than likely has been going on for over a year Doug article will possibly shed more light on that.  Sony has the impetus and now the fab process to get to 50MP and I am sure they can scale the process.  Then it gets interesting CMOS vs CMOS.  

It's only January and we have a huge announcement and possible direction change by Phase One, Hassy is following and maybe Pentax.  It's just going to get more interesting.

Paul

[Graham Welland]

Maybe Pentax can change that or impact that. They have not so far. But I don't know if Pentax makes money with the 645D. Just because you can make a product for under $10,000 doesn't mean it's worth it to do so - especially if that is your only product line.


Steve Hendrix
Capture Integration

Steve,

I think that people forget that small companies need to charge the appropriate price for goods to keep them in business, paying their staff and taxes, and creating quality products. The reality is that a low volume manufacturer can't compete on volume (or loss leader) terms with a massive corporation like Pentax, Sony or Canon. Arguably even the relatively small Nikon dwarf's Phase One and hence has more leeway to cut margins on premium products if their mainstream gear covers the gap.

I fully expect this to be the first release of an ever evolving family of products if history is a guide. However, I still don't see Phase One ever being able to do business at $10k or less per back and not destroy their existing market and customer base.

[bjanes]

I'm not offended that Mercedes makes a vehicle that is out of my price range. I'm not offended that Chevrolet doesn't make higher quality cars. (Note - I don't really know that much hands on about either brand). I understand where Torger comes from because the price difference is so great, even compared to cars. But my point really is that medium format digital has been this way for over 20 years. This is how it is and how it has always been.

Your disclaimer is noted, but the analogy has some relevance. Consumer Reports has tested the latest Chevrolet Impala (list price US$ 27-36K) and the Mercedes E350 (US$ 51-102K) and gave the Chevrolet an overall rating of 95 points and the Mercedes an overall rating of 86 points. I live in an upscale community and I see far more MBs than Chevys and many seem to prefer the S-Class models rather than the E-models. These drivers are not looking for basic transportation but are more interested in making a statement. Many also prefer Rolex mechanical watches to electronic Seikos even though the latter is a much better time keeper. Myself, I have an Acura and Seiko and am satisfied, although I have an old Rolex that I no longer use much.

Regards,

Bill

[Theodoros]

Chris,

You may have a point.

I'm in the same boat as you for the moment and couldn't easily pay cash and buy an IQ250 on Monday. However, if I were a pro then Phase One have made it very attractive to lease a back vs the full capital expenditure.

I don't expect pros to buy this Graham, they can solve their LV and high ISO performance problems better with other, much cheaper products.

[Graham Welland]

I don't expect pros to buy this Graham, they can solve their LV and high ISO performance problems better with other, much cheaper products.

Only those who believe in the other system benefits of the IQ back are going to be interested. as Steve and Doug have said, those may not matter to you but they certainly do matter to those that these backs are aimed at. That would apply to all of the forthcoming MF back implementations IMHO.