Phase One IQ250 - 11 things you need to know and Q&A

[Theodoros]

Price reasoning seems to be that a CCD 50MP system + D800 +lenses + 2 system pain is replaced by a single high resolving  MF system.

It's a point of view.

But, I'm sure the honorable kaisha-in of Pentaksu will take into careful consideration the customer wishes about lower pricing in this thread, when they introduce the 645DII.

Edmund

So… your guess is that MF makers will now discontinue their CCD backs, is it Edmund? …my guess is that CCD sales will rise, most will prefer to buy a smaller sensor but much cheaper D800E than a 68% rise in image area (that will add nothing to their photography) at 8 times the cost and that MF will benefit from the fact that there is now a "bridge" that will ease the advance to MF from FF…

P.S. Please remember that I was the one that predicted that this was going to be a 44X33 "entry-level" (for MF) product. ….still very profitable for MF makers though!

[Josef Isayo]

In the past the biggest advantage MFDB offered were sensor size, sensor look (CCD), higher dynamic range, and better quality glass.
With the new IO 250, Phase one has replaced the unique CCD look to a mainstream DSLR CMOS (plus it's 1.3 crop) , equaled dynamic range of Sony based FF sensors, and in my mind offer inferior glass available from high end Canon, Zeiss, and Nikon. All this for $35K?

[ErikKaffehr]

Hi,

Neither do I.

As a general comment I feel Phase One exaggerates the high ISO capabilities of the IQ 250. Why? A couple of reasons.

1) I am shooting Sony Exmoor full frame and don't really shoot above ISO 100. Yeah 400 ISO is very good on the Alpha 99 I have. But for each doubling of ISO I loose one step of DR and I get 41% more noise. Phase One may claim otherwise, perhaps to much champagne celebrating the new Exmoor based IQ 250? Yes, it is possible to shoot ISO 6400, but the results will be a bit … blah.

2) It is obviously possible to shoot sports and theatre with Phase One, it could also be done with my Pentax 67. But you can use a camera made for available darkness like a Nikon D4 crank up ISO and shoot away with an f/1.4 lens or f/2 telephoto. I don't think we are going to see a lot of IQ 250s at the Olympic Games.

Being able to go up in ISO is a good thing, but I still feel that low ISO image quality is the most important feature for MFD.

But, live view is a godbless for technical camera shooters. Let's hope that Phase One makes a good job of reducing shutter induced camera shake shooting live view.

Best regards
Erik

I hate to spoil the show for everyone, but I fail to be impressed by the noise in that picture.

[henrikfoto]

Looks like you are right, Erik.
The 100% crop from iso 1600 looks really disappointing😒.
If this is the best it can do at 1600 I don't really see the advantage over the D800e..

[jerome_m]

Let's hope that Phase One makes a good job of reducing shutter induced camera shake shooting live view.

You don't have shutter camera shake with a leaf shutter.

[Paul2660]

With a Phase One DF or DF+ you still have a focal plane shutter firing also.  Both shutters fire.

Paul

[ErikKaffehr]

Hi,

This is a 1600 ISO shot from the Alpha 99 I have. Distracting a bit from the IQ 250, but it is an Exmoor sensor, 1013 generation, so it is a bit relevant. A bit larger pixels than the IQ 250 (6 microns vs. 5.2 microns).

Best regards
Erik

Looks like you are right, Erik.
The 100% crop from iso 1600 looks really disappointing😒.
If this is the best it can do at 1600 I don't really see the advantage over the D800e..

[Theodoros]

With a Phase One DF or DF+ you still have a focal plane shutter firing also.  Both shutters fire.

Paul

….and if one happens to ever use Contax645, the shutter sound and feeling is …orgasmic! Something like riding an old Harley than a Honda.

[ErikKaffehr]

Yes, maybe, but orgasms don't make good pictures outside the T&A business.

Some folks I know get more exited by Ducatis than Harleys, tastes differ I guess.

Best regards
Erik

….and if one happens to ever use Contax645, the shutter sound and feeling is …orgasmic! Something like riding an old Harley than a Honda.

[eronald]

My guess is that Pentax will be watching the comments about IQ250 quality very very carefully.


If people like the quality of the $30K Phase back, Pentax will place a bulk order with Sony. Then Pentax will release a $10K version of the 645D with the same sensor, and with a humble smile say "we think our 645DII is good value for money".

If people don't like the CMOS Phase images, then we might see a straight update of the 645DII with CCD, and the marketing slogan "get a real CCD camera at an affordable price".

Edmund

So… your guess is that MF makers will now discontinue their CCD backs, is it Edmund? …my guess is that CCD sales will rise, most will prefer to buy a smaller sensor but much cheaper D800E than a 68% rise in image area (that will add nothing to their photography) at 8 times the cost and that MF will benefit from the fact that there is now a "bridge" that will ease the advance to MF from FF…

P.S. Please remember that I was the one that predicted that this was going to be a 44X33 "entry-level" (for MF) product. ….still very profitable for MF makers though!

[ErikKaffehr]

Hi,

I actually think there is shake, but it is ignorable (just to be exact :-).

If you look at the Sony Alpha 7r it has some problems with shutter induced vibration, much depending on the shutter being closed exposure. So shutter is closed and immediately opened. If Phase One has done a real good job on the camera it would be possible to use live view and close and open central shutter without using the focal plane shutter. Or, it may be the Sony sensor has electronic first curtain like the one the SLT 99.

As a side note, both the Alpa FPS and the Hartblei HCam use a Mamiya focal plane shutter and it is supposed not to cause vibrations on those cameras, but shutter vibration has been reported on the Phase One cameras, AFAIK, so it is an interesting question.

Best regards
Erik

You don't have shutter camera shake with a leaf shutter.

[tho_mas]

If you look at the Sony Alpha 7r it has some problems with shutter induced vibration

Some people on the internet reported about problems with Shutter Shock. I for one would say these people do have problems with their tripods, tripod heads or camera plates ... or a combination of the three. I for one can't detect any shutter shock when the camera is mounted carefully on decent equipment.

[Vladimirovich]

Some people on the internet reported about problems with Shutter Shock. I for one would say these people do have problems with their tripods, tripod heads or camera plates ... or a combination of the three. I for one can't detect any shutter shock when the camera is mounted carefully on decent equipment.

shutter shock also affects you when you have camera in hands

[Vladimirovich]

he unique CCD look

comrade Mao pales vs certain marketing types employed or otherwise enticed by P1 & Co...

[tho_mas]

shutter shock also affects you when you have camera in hands

I was able to shoot very sharp captures hand held with a 50mm lens at 1/60''. Only very few - two out of ten - ... but still. If shutter shock would be the reason for softness the ratio would be zero out of ten. I think it's simply the very high resolution (low pixel pitch) that is extremely unforgiving regarding "movement" of any kind. Too, when the camera shoots tack sharp captures at any shutter speed off a tripod this also shows that the shutter alone does not introduce softness. It's a combination of things ...

[Theodoros]

My guess is that Pentax will be watching the comments about IQ250 quality very very carefully.


If people like the quality of the $30K Phase back, Pentax will place a bulk order with Sony. Then Pentax will release a $10K version of the 645D with the same sensor, and with a humble smile say "we think our 645DII is good value for money".

If people don't like the CMOS Phase images, then we might see a straight update of the 645DII with CCD, and the marketing slogan "get a real CCD camera at an affordable price".

Edmund

Maybe… but don't forget the Credo coming… Pentax has to take that in mind too… P1 already has...

[Theodoros]

Refurbished IQ140 and other IQ1 backs are still available. But no more new IQ140 are being made. The next several months will be the best time there has been to buy an IQ140 as I expect many to upgrade to the IQ250.

There are no Leaf/Credo products in this announcement.

Upgrade? (!!!!) …from a CCD IQ140 to a Cmos IQ250? …really? …well, I wouldn't, but again I would never buy a back unless it has MS capability (maybe I would make an exception for a S/H Dalsa 33mp one at a good price). …but that's only MO. 

[Theodoros]

shutter shock also affects you when you have camera in hands

Haven't try a Contax… have you?

[ErikKaffehr]

Hi,

Some pretty serious people. Diglloyd to begin with, he used:

RRS TVC34L at 5' 3"
Arca Swiss Cube with RRS B2-Pro-II
RRS B6 plate on the A7r
2s self timer with wireless remote.

Jim Kasson measured it, 1/3 of the vibration level of the D800 (without MLU I guess)

RRS TVC-44, RRS BH-55

Joseph Holmes

Best regards
Erik

Some people on the internet reported about problems with Shutter Shock. I for one would say these people do have problems with their tripods, tripod heads or camera plates ... or a combination of the three. I for one can't detect any shutter shock when the camera is mounted carefully on decent equipment.

[jduncan]

My guess is that Pentax will be watching the comments about IQ250 quality very very carefully.


If people like the quality of the $30K Phase back, Pentax will place a bulk order with Sony. Then Pentax will release a $10K version of the 645D with the same sensor, and with a humble smile say "we think our 645DII is good value for money".

If people don't like the CMOS Phase images, then we might see a straight update of the 645DII with CCD, and the marketing slogan "get a real CCD camera at an affordable price".

Edmund

Agree with you. The value position of PhaseOne is interesting.  Maybe the final images (when release is done) will be amazing. It won't be the first time that vendor examples are less than ideal to say the less.

The crop sensor place the back in the low spectrum, but at the same time the price is higher. Maybe when they release the new camera the combination will be quite appealing ?
PhaseOne still have the rest of the line so they can extract some extra money from been first and then rebalance if necessary.

Hasselblad is late to the party again, they promise multi shot capabilities. Will they withdraw the H5D-50?

The move from CCD is a risk, it destroy a differentiator of the MF product.

Let see how it goes, as always Phase One is willing to invest and deliver new products.
That deserves respect.

Best regards,
J. Duncan