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Author Topic: Phase One IQ250 - 11 things you need to know and Q&A  (Read 41117 times)

buckshot

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Re: Phase One IQ250 - 11 things you need to know and Q&A
« Reply #40 on: January 24, 2014, 09:17:35 am »

Obviously a lot to like, but disappointed that the sensor is 44 x 33 and the price is $35k. Just let me check the calendar … yup, it really is 2014, for a moment I thought I was back in 2007. $35k for sensor little larger than that available in a 35mm DSLR is hard to swallow. Despite P1's launch video, if I was shooting mountain biking, the clunky DF + IQ250 wouldn't be my first choice.

Also, I wonder about the economics of the Sony brand sensor. For the numbers to work it looks like Sony had to design a sensor that it could sell to multiple manufacturers (hence the 44 x 33 size). Since I can't see Pentax, Leica and Hasselblad ever needing a larger size chip, I do wonder if Phase have enough muscle (and the market is large enough) for them to induce Sony to fabricate a 37x49 or 40x54 chip. If not, that's a shame.
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Jason Denning

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Re: Phase One IQ250 - 11 things you need to know and Q&A
« Reply #41 on: January 24, 2014, 09:51:56 am »

15 times the price for 20% bump in quality. Ouch.


Well ... this sensor gives you 1.7 times the real estate of a D800 and 1.39 times
the number of pixels which results in a whooping 17.9% of linear pixel resolution.
Sou you can print a 100*100 cm image in 117.9x117.9 cm without quality loss.
Will require some serious medium format color and MTF magic to justify the price tag.

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Doug Peterson

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Re: Phase One IQ250 - 11 things you need to know and Q&A
« Reply #42 on: January 24, 2014, 09:54:15 am »

15 times the price for 20% bump in quality. Ouch.

This assumes your only definition and measure of image quality is linear resolution, and that your only reason to buy a camera is to shoot resolution charts.

MF is for people with an appreciation for lens rendering, bokeh, tonality, color, highlight rendition and unique features/tools like true flash sync at 1/1600th, super fast tethering, built-in Wifi editing/control, and focus mask.

Your comment is even stranger given that you own (according to your signature) a 645 Pro TL with a 22mp digital back made over 11 years ago. You could just as easily sell that and buy a 22mp 5DII. But you don't. I imagine you appreciate some of these things then no?
« Last Edit: January 24, 2014, 10:01:31 am by Doug Peterson »
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torger

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Re: Phase One IQ250 - 11 things you need to know and Q&A
« Reply #43 on: January 24, 2014, 10:09:08 am »

Phase One's idea is not provide the greatest price/performance in the market, their idea is to provide the best and charge plenty for that to those that can afford. And I think they succeed quite good. Although they're not best in all aspects, they're good at being first with the latest technology (in the MF segment that is), and great at implementing it compared to the competition. Hasselblad don't have the same long exposure capability despite they've used the same sensors for example.
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calindustries

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Re: Phase One IQ250 - 11 things you need to know and Q&A
« Reply #44 on: January 24, 2014, 10:10:27 am »

Does this unit tether with USB3? I've yet to use any of the IQ2 backs so I'm not aware if they do or not, but I've only tethered with FW800 on IQ backs.

-Craig

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jduncan

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Re: Phase One IQ250 - 11 things you need to know and Q&A
« Reply #45 on: January 24, 2014, 10:14:41 am »

44x33! Damn I think I would just buy a D800E and stick medium format lenses on it and spend the left over $32k on a holiday.

If you do product (also) for living and you like medium format then you have the alternative to wait for Hasselblad and buy the multi shot.
There is also the alternative to wait for the Pentax and get a decent price performance. My concern is that the successor of the 36mpixel sensor on the D800 is coming so the pentax may not be a good deal by Photokina (if is released by then).

I was surprised by the size of the sensor too. Pairing two D800 sensors will get you 48x36 and 72mpixels. But if they get better dynamic range it will be great.
I believe, with other people on this forum, that is about volume: the crop sensor open  more options for Sony.

Best regards,
J. Duncan

« Last Edit: January 24, 2014, 10:20:19 am by jduncan »
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JV

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Re: Phase One IQ250 - 11 things you need to know and Q&A
« Reply #46 on: January 24, 2014, 10:20:49 am »

I was also not going to reply but given that Doug got defensive…

The IQ250 is $15K more than the IQ140 and almost as much as the IQ260… that is a lot of money for better ISO performance...

In Leica terms, with that money you can buy a Leica M, a Leica Monochrome, the Noctilux 50mm, the Summilux 35mm, any wide angle lens and still have change left…

Complete madness!!!
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Doug Peterson

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Re: Phase One IQ250 - 11 things you need to know and Q&A
« Reply #47 on: January 24, 2014, 10:24:35 am »

Does this unit tether with USB3? I've yet to use any of the IQ2 backs so I'm not aware if they do or not, but I've only tethered with FW800 on IQ backs.

All IQ and IQ2 backs can tether via USB3 or FW800. Regarding Live View you can find more info in our Phase One IQ250 article.
« Last Edit: January 24, 2014, 12:37:22 pm by Doug Peterson »
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Doug Peterson

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Re: Phase One IQ250 - 11 things you need to know and Q&A
« Reply #48 on: January 24, 2014, 10:29:53 am »

To insult Jason or anyone else by saying he just doesn't get it because he scoffs at the price isn't going to make you any friends.

I hope Jason does not feel insulted. That was not my intention. If he does I apologize.

davidgp

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Re: Phase One IQ250 - 11 things you need to know and Q&A
« Reply #49 on: January 24, 2014, 10:34:05 am »

Just a curiosity (not that I have the money to buy one...), when I saw Kevin video of live view one thing I missed from what I'm use to Canon is in live view a live histogram, is that possible? Not that representens a major problem, just a few pictures and you can adjust the histogram as you like it, it just makes everything quicker...

Doug Peterson

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Re: Phase One IQ250 - 11 things you need to know and Q&A
« Reply #50 on: January 24, 2014, 10:35:14 am »

I was also not going to reply but given that Doug got defensive…

The IQ250 is $15K more than the IQ140 and almost as much as the IQ260… that is a lot of money for better ISO performance...

...

Complete madness!!!

By all means if an IQ140 will do what you want it to do then go with an IQ140. You will save considerable cost.

For some people the improvements in the IQ250 vs the 140 wouldn't be worth $500 (e.g. they shoot fixed-camera, fixed focus, product shots on white at base ISO in studio). For others they'd be worth it at twice the price.

Doug Peterson

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Re: Phase One IQ250 - 11 things you need to know and Q&A
« Reply #51 on: January 24, 2014, 10:35:58 am »

Just a curiosity (not that I have the money to buy one...), when I saw Kevin video of live view one thing I missed from what I'm use to Canon is in live view a live histogram, is that possible? Not that representens a major problem, just a few pictures and you can adjust the histogram as you like it, it just makes everything quicker...

No. But I think that would a nice addition!

BernardLanguillier

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Re: Phase One IQ250 - 11 things you need to know and Q&A
« Reply #52 on: January 24, 2014, 10:36:53 am »

The pricing makes sense.

Priced like a D4x+Otus, it would be compared on performance/look and the outcome is... unclear.
Priced as it is, it simply IS better! ;)

Anyway, kudos to Phaseone for having finally released a back whose specs got me interested... but no point in speaking with the banker until all the players put their cards on the table, that is Pentax, Nikon and... who knows... Canon.

Cheers,
Bernard

Sareesh Sudhakaran

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Re: Phase One IQ250 - 11 things you need to know and Q&A
« Reply #53 on: January 24, 2014, 11:04:54 am »

Can the live view be captured in 24 fps?
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BJL

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Re: Phase One IQ250 - 11 things you need to know and Q&A
« Reply #54 on: January 24, 2014, 11:09:13 am »

Sony Exmor technology with largest pixel size so far and with MF-style bayer color filters (ie color rendition a higher priority than high ISO).
The pixel pitch of 5.4 microns [EDIT: actually 5.3 microns and 8280 x 6208 = 51.4MP according to the IQ2 series specs page] is smaller than the 6 microns of Sony's 24MP, 36x24mm Exmor sensors (A7, etc.), but bigger than the 4.9 microns of the D800 and A7R.

I wonder what the CFA's will be like:
- the same as MF makers have been getting from Kodak/Truesense and Teledyne-Dalsa,
-  the same as Sony has been using on previous Exmor sensors,
- or something else again?

I do not how much these design details are controlled by sensor maker vs camera maker, but hopefully the MF camera and back makers get to set their priorities in the trade-off between color accuracy and sensitivity (aka "ISO").


P. S. Will there be a video hack?!
« Last Edit: January 24, 2014, 11:36:29 am by BJL »
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Doug Peterson

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Re: Phase One IQ250 - 11 things you need to know and Q&A
« Reply #55 on: January 24, 2014, 11:09:49 am »

Can the live view be captured in 24 fps?

You cannot capture or record video, if that's what you mean.

Live view on the IQ250 is for focusing/composition etc and runs around 24fps.

Bart_van_der_Wolf

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Re: Phase One IQ250 - 11 things you need to know and Q&A
« Reply #56 on: January 24, 2014, 11:24:15 am »

The pixel pitch of 5.4 microns is smaller than the 6 microns of Sony's 24MP, 36x24mm Exmor sensors (A7, etc.), but bigger than the 4.9 microns of the D800 and A7R.

Indeed, and that makes the mentioned 14-bit engineering DR seem a plausible number.

Quote
I wonder what the CFA's will be like:
- the same as MF makers have been getting from Kodak/Truesense and Teledyne-Dalsa,
-  the same as Sony has been using on previous Exmor sensors,
- or something else again?

I do not how much these design details are controlled by sensor maker vs camera maker, but hopefully the MF camera and back makers get to set their priorities in the trade-off between color accuracy and sensitivity (aka "ISO").

We'll soon know, but it would seem plausible that stricter separation CFA characteristics are chosen over sensitivity (which will still jump (from a CCD perspective). This would also put the 'CCD color' debate to rest. The only worrying comment is from their datasheet, which states 14-bit color compared to 16-bit color for the other IQ backs, but maybe that's just marketing speak while trying to cover their ass for prior claims of superior color. We'll see.

Several stops more sensitive at a comparable noise level than CCD, and a stop more DR, sounds like a good deal for MF users.

Cheers,
Bart
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EricWHiss

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Re: Phase One IQ250 - 11 things you need to know and Q&A
« Reply #57 on: January 24, 2014, 11:38:21 am »

Yes, the video was the thing I was wondering about.  Potentially a future update?  Also of course if Leaf will introduce something CMOS too or if Phase will make this available in Hy6 mount.  And actually I wondered about the price - very surprised - would have expected it about $10k less.

Good live view has to be a big advantage. 

I hope also to see larger sensors too since 44x33 is smaller even that really old sensors like the p25 and when Leica came out with the S people then were saying it wasn't really even MF but a tweener.   I feel that one of the advantages of MF is the look of the larger sensor - so the bigger the better.

Are there any full size sample images out there?  I'm more interested in seeing base ISO and ISO 1600 than 6400.

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Vladimirovich

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Re: Phase One IQ250 - 11 things you need to know and Q&A
« Reply #58 on: January 24, 2014, 11:48:05 am »

The only worrying comment is from their datasheet, which states 14-bit color compared to 16-bit color for the other IQ backs, but maybe that's just marketing speak while trying to cover their ass for prior claims of superior color. We'll see.
Sony's ADCs on die - so they are 14bit output off sensor...
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Bart_van_der_Wolf

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Re: Phase One IQ250 - 11 things you need to know and Q&A
« Reply #59 on: January 24, 2014, 11:57:51 am »

I'm more interested in seeing base ISO and ISO 1600 than 6400.

Same here. There is probably little benefit from anything more than ISO 1600, combined with underexposing in camera, with an exposure push in the Raw conversion process (underexposure also creates more headroom for specular highlights and direct lightsources in the image).

Cheers,
Bart
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