Luminous Landscape Forum
Equipment & Techniques => Medium Format / Film / Digital Backs – and Large Sensor Photography => Topic started by: Doug Peterson on January 24, 2014, 06:57:36 am
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The Phase One IQ250 (https://digitaltransitions.com/page/phase-one-iq250) is real. That is to say the rumors of announcement are true, but more importantly the IQ250 starts shipping Monday.
1. It ships starting on Monday
2. DT will be doing tech camera tests this coming week
3. It really does look good at ISO6400
4. It's a Sony sensor, Phase One everything else
5. M, H, V, and C mounts available
6. Capture Pilot for iOS7 also coming very soon
7. Live View is available on LCD, 24fps
8. Cost is $34,990 - Upgrades available
9. It does long exposures, really well
10. Same interface/chassis as other IQ2 backs
11. GPS Logging (also coming to IQ260/280)
More details can be found here: Details about Phase One IQ250 (https://digitaltransitions.com/blog/dt-blog/phase-one-iq250-11-things-to-know)
Questions?
I'm glad to answer any questions. I've been in Hong Kong all week and have worked with a production IQ250, spoken to the engineers, and played with numerous raw files.
Feature Length Story Coming
I'll also be writing a feature length story for Luminous on the back story of the IQ250, and specifically how they've managed to get such great live view, on the LCD itself, and how they were able to achieve great color using a CMOS sensor.
Free Rental
Digital Transitions will be giving away a free rental of the first IQ250 entering the country (must pickup/return in person to NYC office). Enter on our facebook page (https://www.facebook.com/pages/Phase-One-Partner-Digital-Transitions/126184805164?ref=hl).
Other Links
Phase One IQ250 Product Specs (https://digitaltransitions.com/page/phase-one-iq250)
Phase One IQ250 Justine Ungaro Shoot (raw files soon) (https://digitaltransitions.com/blog/dt-blog/iq250-first-experience-justine-ungaro)
Luminous Landscape has a video up (http://vimeo.com/84772899) already.
Quick Tease
Many more images and tests to come. Here is one from our client Justine Ungaro:
(http://www.doug-peterson.com/download/Phase-One-IQ250-JustineUngaro-ISO1600.jpg)
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Well, now we know, and can stop the speculation.
For me, it's all about the S/N at higher ISO. This definitely looks good. A worthy successor to the P30+.
But more importantly, commercial CMOS has finally broken the 36x24 mm barrier. All bets are off now for how big it can get.
Ray
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Hi Doug, will C1P 7.3 open the files now or should we wait for a software update?
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Hi Doug, will C1P 7.3 open the files now or should we wait for a software update?
7.1.6 is the current version and can NOT properly open the IQ250 files.
7.2 is required for proper reading of IQ250 files, and is in final beta at the moment. It should be publicly released next week.
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Doug: how well does this back work with technical cameras?
To be more specific: does it do wide symmetric wide angles like Schneider 35XL better or worse than a IQ160 (or P40+ to take the same sensor size)?
And does the live view work in dimmer conditions, ie if you shoot with your tech cam in dusk, will live view be usable for focusing, or does it require a specific narrow lighting condition to work well as the CCD live view?
I think 44x33mm is a bit too small to make it popular for technical cameras, but it would be great to know if the sensor technology would work for it if/when backs with larger sensor area arrive.
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lots of videos on the phase website but none of the live view?
economical with the truth or you really can zoom in at 100% on the back of the camera and focus?
edit: live view available on lcd
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While the ISO capability does look nice indeed, can you comment on low iso quality, this is MF after all, and most importantly how does it compare with CCD.
Do you also have any info on potential future releases of fullframe CMOS backs? 1.3x is probably a good starting point but crop backs are not interesting.
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lots of videos on the phase website but none of the live view?
economical with the truth or you really can zoom in at 100% on the back of the camera and focus?
edit: live view available on lcd
Absolutely, positively, yes.
It's very good. It's been live for all of 10 minutes and most of the videos would have been produced many weeks ago (due to time for video post production).
I've played with it personally and it is very fast (about 24fps) and very low latency (maybe 1/10th of a second between changing focus and seeing the result).
All a long way of saying yes yes yes.
Also works by USB.
All covered in the section about Live View on IQ250 (https://digitaltransitions.com/blog/dt-blog/phase-one-iq250-11-things-to-know)
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7.1.6 is the current version and can NOT properly open the IQ250 files.
7.2 is required for proper reading of IQ250 files, and is in final beta at the moment. It should be publicly released next week.
Oh, thanks for the correction and the info. Will wait for the update to work on the files you will be posting shortly.
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Doug,
Thank you for the well-presented news. Hope you sell lots of them.
The part I don't understand is how Phase managed to announce ahead of Hasselblad even though Hassy are partnered with Sony.
Edmund
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Doug: how well does this back work with technical cameras?
To be more specific: does it do wide symmetric wide angles like Schneider 35XL better or worse than a IQ160 (or P40+ to take the same sensor size)?
And does the live view work in dimmer conditions, ie if you shoot with your tech cam in dusk, will live view be usable for focusing, or does it require a specific narrow lighting condition to work well as the CCD live view?
I think 44x33mm is a bit too small to make it popular for technical cameras, but it would be great to know if the sensor technology would work for it if/when backs with larger sensor area arrive.
This will not be a back you use with Schneider wides. It will be Rodenstock only.
Which Rodenstocks will work wonderfully with what amount of movement is not something I can comment on yet - we're doing more comprehensive testing this coming week so I can give accurate information rather than "so far we've seen".
FYI: We have maybe 1/3rd of our tech camera customers using a less than full frame sensor. If you don't need SUPER wide the size of the sensor on a rangefinder/techcamera is not really that relevant.
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16bits raw file?
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Doug, would the IQ 140 still remain in the lineup?
Also; you probably can't answer this right now, but is this sensor heading to Leaf too?
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Doug, would the IQ 140 still remain in the lineup?
Also; you probably can't answer this right now, but is this sensor heading to Leaf too?
Refurbished IQ140 (https://digitaltransitions.com/blog/dt-blog/phase-one-refurbished-bundle-summer-promos) and other IQ1 backs are still available. But no more new IQ140 are being made. The next several months will be the best time there has been to buy an IQ140 as I expect many to upgrade to the IQ250.
There are no Leaf/Credo products in this announcement.
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See this sites home page for live view quick demo and more.
Kevin Raber
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FYI: We have maybe 1/3rd of our tech camera customers using a less than full frame sensor. If you don't need SUPER wide the size of the sensor on a rangefinder/techcamera is not really that relevant.
Yeah, you're right, and the Digaron-S range is a bit more interesting with a smaller sensor, as you get some reasonable amount of movement inside that 70mm image circle. If it can do the Digaron-S 28mm it will have pretty good wide coverage.
Many tech users are however already invested in lenses targeting a different sensor size and wide angle capability, and then it may be hard to move down to 44x33.
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Long exposures on the 250 will they need a dark frame for best results?
Paul
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Refurbished IQ140 (https://digitaltransitions.com/blog/dt-blog/phase-one-refurbished-bundle-summer-promos) and other IQ1 backs are still available. But no more new IQ140 are being made. The next several months will be the best time there has been to buy an IQ140 as I expect many to upgrade to the IQ250.
There are no Leaf/Credo products in this announcement.
Pardon the red wine, I meant the IQ 240.
But yes I agree, now is a good time to buy refurbished IQ 140s.
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I don't think there ever was a IQ240. Just the 260 280 and 260 monochrome back.
Paul
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Pardon the red wine, I meant the IQ 240.
But yes I agree, now is a good time to buy refurbished IQ 140s.
There is no IQ240, never was.
Perhaps now it makes more sense why the IQ140 was not brought into the IQ2 series :).
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About pricing, $35K for the 44x33 IQ250, it's about the same as the full-frame 54x41 IQ260, right? So the CMOS advantage costs quite a bit... it shall be interesting to see Hasselblad's pricing strategy. I guessed right about sensor size, but I thought price would be set lower :)
On the other hand upgrade pricing can show an entirely different strategy, has happened before.
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Long exposures on the 250 will they need a dark frame for best results?
Dark frame is mandatory and automatic on all long exposures on the IQ250 - same as the IQ260 and all previous P1 backs.
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There is no IQ240, never was.
Perhaps now it makes more sense why the IQ140 was not brought into the IQ2 series :).
Yes, it seems like this Merlot is a lot more sinister than I thought it was. ;D
I am guessing this project has been a 3+ years in the making. In which case yes; the absence of an IQ240 makes perfect sense.
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Yes, it seems like this Merlot is a lot more sinister than I thought it was. ;D
I am guessing this project has been a 3+ years in the making. In which case yes; the absence of an IQ240 makes perfect sense.
I have a feature length article coming out on monday which will cover some interesting history.
But suffice it to say they didn't start this project yesterday :).
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About pricing, $35K for the 44x33 IQ250, it's about the same as the full-frame 54x41 IQ260, right? So the CMOS advantage costs quite a bit... it shall be interesting to see Hasselblad's pricing strategy. I guessed right about sensor size, but I thought price would be set lower :)
On the other hand upgrade pricing can show an entirely different strategy, has happened before.
I would agree with that. I would have guessed mid twenties, $30K at most. $35K is a lot…
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Dark frame is mandatory and automatic on all long exposures on the IQ250 - same as the IQ260 and all previous P1 backs.
Aw, crap. That is NOT the answer I wanted - or expected - to see! >:(
They really have to add a firmware setting to make it optional. Otherwise it won't tempt FFDSLR users, who are used to controlling their own dark acquistion, stacking and subtraction.
When are the likes of Phase One and Leica going to trust photographers to make their own decisions?
Ray
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44x33! Damn I think I would just buy a D800E and stick medium format lenses on it and spend the left over $32k on a holiday.
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44x33! Damn I think I would just buy a D800E and stick medium format lenses on it and spend the left over $32k on a holiday.
Well ... this sensor gives you 1.7 times the real estate of a D800 and 1.39 times
the number of pixels which results in a whooping 17.9% of linear pixel resolution.
Sou you can print a 100*100 cm image in 117.9x117.9 cm without quality loss.
Will require some serious medium format color and MTF magic to justify the price tag.
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44x33! Damn I think I would just buy a D800E and stick medium format lenses on it and spend the left over $32k on a holiday.
Phase One makes expensive digital backs. They still generally have some sort of edge (one of them is simply to be available first, Hasselblad tried here, but Phase One is stealing the show), so people buy them instead of the more economical competitors. But as far as I can understand the Sony medium format sensor is going to end up in a lot of backs, and probably Phase One's IQ250 is going to be the most expensive option. Probably still one of the most popular. Phase One's upgrade programs are also generally a lot more attractive than looking at the single unit price, so if you're already in the Phase One system you'll get a sweeter offer for sure.
Sony Exmor technology with largest pixel size so far and with MF-style bayer color filters (ie color rendition a higher priority than high ISO), I cannot think of any other result that this will be the best image quality seen so far out of a camera sensor.
Maybe we'll see Hasselblad, Leaf, Pentax, Leica all with "their own" Sony CMOS sensors within a year or so.
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Doug!
How is the picture quality in low iso compared to th 280?
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Doug!
How is the picture quality in low iso compared to th 280?
I've not done any testing in direct comparison yet. I've been too focused on evaluating the IQ250 on it's own.
P1 claims a full stop of DR advantage. But given they are entirely different sensors I will wait for our comparative testing to judge for myself. Stay tuned or you're welcome to come to our NY office and do your own testing.
Lower resolution of course (50mp vs 80mp) and smaller sensor (different lens ratios).
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Doug, hopefully you can do a low ISO test some time against the IQ140 and/ or a Credo 40, two backs with similarly sized sensors that you have access to.
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Doug, hopefully you can do a low ISO test some time against the IQ140 and/ or a Credo 40, two backs with similarly sized sensors that you have access to.
Yes of course. We will try to do get as many tests done as possible. With priority of course for our customers. I expect our office studio will be booked nearly non stop this week with clients (and potential clients) doing testing for their own evaluation. But I will try to get some general purpose testing done as well. My highest priority is tech camera testing.
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Doug,
Thank you for the well-presented news. Hope you sell lots of them.
The part I don't understand is how Phase managed to announce ahead of Hasselblad even though Hassy are partnered with Sony.
Edmund
The Sony sensor is not proprietary to any one company. My understanding is that any company that wishes can use it. Hasselblad jumped the gun with its announcement while Phase One was having its dealer introduction meeting in Hong Kong last week. But the real issue for all back and camera makers will be their ability to either integrate it into an existing product or introduce a new one.
With a high res touch screen already part of the IQ series my guess is that Phase has a bit of a leg up at this point, as they've clearly shown by announcing now with shipping starting next week.
Michael
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I agree Michael, with the rest of the hardware being industry leading, Phase is definitely having an advantage in this game at the moment. The Hassy screen is nothing to write home about and that might be the reason why they are restricting Live View to the tethered mode only.
But of course, that might (And I hope it will) change with the H6D, whenever that comes out. Competition is a good thing.
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Yes, Hasselblad's introduction seems to be more in a hurry, with no live view available in the back as it seems. Phase One is a step ahead in user interface, and also in long exposure capability (but that part is probably less important for most users).
No doubt the Hasselblad camera will be substantially cheaper though, but one will have to wait for Pentax to get MF CMOS at an "affordable" price. Or maybe Sony will make some crazy one-off rangefinder with fixed lens with this sensor, it would actually not surprise me after cameras like the RX1.
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With a high res touch screen already part of the IQ series my guess is that Phase has a bit of a leg up at this point, as they've clearly shown by announcing now with shipping starting next week.
Good luck in Chile and Antarctica Michael! Good hunting and good light to you!
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Yes, Hasselblad's introduction seems to be more in a hurry, with no live view available in the back as it seems. Phase One is a step ahead in user interface, and also in long exposure capability (but that part is probably less important for most users).
No doubt the Hasselblad camera will be substantially cheaper though, but one will have to wait for Pentax to get MF CMOS at an "affordable" price. Or maybe Sony will make some crazy one-off rangefinder with fixed lens with this sensor, it would actually not surprise me after cameras like the RX1.
Yes, that begs the question; how long will Sony be content making just the sensor and relegated tot he "Always a bridesmaid, never the bride" status?
The current day Sony is very hungry, pushing envelops in every business area they are in and I won't be surprised if they develop a new platform based on this sensor family at some point.
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Aw, crap. That is NOT the answer I wanted - or expected - to see! >:(
They really have to add a firmware setting to make it optional. Otherwise it won't tempt FFDSLR users, who are used to controlling their own dark acquistion, stacking and subtraction.
When are the likes of Phase One and Leica going to trust photographers to make their own decisions?
I agree with Ray, having user selectable darkframe subtraction (and support in CaptureOne to do it in post, just like LCCs) would allow many more users to benefit. I can only imagine what an IQ250 star trail sequence would look like, altthough there are many more time critical (timelapse type of) long exposure scenarios that would benefit from that. It would also open up possibilities for other cameras, which would boost the sales of CaptureOne software more than it would threaten the sales of the enabled backs.
Cheers,
Bart
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Good luck in Chile and Antarctica Michael! Good hunting and good light to you!
Thanks Doug. Having the IQ250 along to shoot with for the next two weeks is going to be great fun. We'll be lending it to anyone on the trip who wishes to try it, though they'll have to pry it out of Kevin and my hands to do so. (A bribe of a beer works wonders though).
Michael
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Obviously a lot to like, but disappointed that the sensor is 44 x 33 and the price is $35k. Just let me check the calendar … yup, it really is 2014, for a moment I thought I was back in 2007. $35k for sensor little larger than that available in a 35mm DSLR is hard to swallow. Despite P1's launch video, if I was shooting mountain biking, the clunky DF + IQ250 wouldn't be my first choice.
Also, I wonder about the economics of the Sony brand sensor. For the numbers to work it looks like Sony had to design a sensor that it could sell to multiple manufacturers (hence the 44 x 33 size). Since I can't see Pentax, Leica and Hasselblad ever needing a larger size chip, I do wonder if Phase have enough muscle (and the market is large enough) for them to induce Sony to fabricate a 37x49 or 40x54 chip. If not, that's a shame.
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15 times the price for 20% bump in quality. Ouch.
Well ... this sensor gives you 1.7 times the real estate of a D800 and 1.39 times
the number of pixels which results in a whooping 17.9% of linear pixel resolution.
Sou you can print a 100*100 cm image in 117.9x117.9 cm without quality loss.
Will require some serious medium format color and MTF magic to justify the price tag.
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15 times the price for 20% bump in quality. Ouch.
This assumes your only definition and measure of image quality is linear resolution, and that your only reason to buy a camera is to shoot resolution charts.
MF is for people with an appreciation for lens rendering, bokeh, tonality, color, highlight rendition and unique features/tools like true flash sync at 1/1600th, super fast tethering, built-in Wifi editing/control, and focus mask.
Your comment is even stranger given that you own (according to your signature) a 645 Pro TL with a 22mp digital back made over 11 years ago. You could just as easily sell that and buy a 22mp 5DII. But you don't. I imagine you appreciate some of these things then no?
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Phase One's idea is not provide the greatest price/performance in the market, their idea is to provide the best and charge plenty for that to those that can afford. And I think they succeed quite good. Although they're not best in all aspects, they're good at being first with the latest technology (in the MF segment that is), and great at implementing it compared to the competition. Hasselblad don't have the same long exposure capability despite they've used the same sensors for example.
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Does this unit tether with USB3? I've yet to use any of the IQ2 backs so I'm not aware if they do or not, but I've only tethered with FW800 on IQ backs.
-Craig
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44x33! Damn I think I would just buy a D800E and stick medium format lenses on it and spend the left over $32k on a holiday.
If you do product (also) for living and you like medium format then you have the alternative to wait for Hasselblad and buy the multi shot.
There is also the alternative to wait for the Pentax and get a decent price performance. My concern is that the successor of the 36mpixel sensor on the D800 is coming so the pentax may not be a good deal by Photokina (if is released by then).
I was surprised by the size of the sensor too. Pairing two D800 sensors will get you 48x36 and 72mpixels. But if they get better dynamic range it will be great.
I believe, with other people on this forum, that is about volume: the crop sensor open more options for Sony.
Best regards,
J. Duncan
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I was also not going to reply but given that Doug got defensive…
The IQ250 is $15K more than the IQ140 and almost as much as the IQ260… that is a lot of money for better ISO performance...
In Leica terms, with that money you can buy a Leica M, a Leica Monochrome, the Noctilux 50mm, the Summilux 35mm, any wide angle lens and still have change left…
Complete madness!!!
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Does this unit tether with USB3? I've yet to use any of the IQ2 backs so I'm not aware if they do or not, but I've only tethered with FW800 on IQ backs.
All IQ and IQ2 backs can tether via USB3 or FW800. Regarding Live View you can find more info in our Phase One IQ250 (https://digitaltransitions.com/blog/dt-blog/phase-one-iq250-11-things-to-know) article.
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To insult Jason or anyone else by saying he just doesn't get it because he scoffs at the price isn't going to make you any friends.
I hope Jason does not feel insulted. That was not my intention. If he does I apologize.
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Just a curiosity (not that I have the money to buy one...), when I saw Kevin video of live view one thing I missed from what I'm use to Canon is in live view a live histogram, is that possible? Not that representens a major problem, just a few pictures and you can adjust the histogram as you like it, it just makes everything quicker...
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I was also not going to reply but given that Doug got defensive…
The IQ250 is $15K more than the IQ140 and almost as much as the IQ260… that is a lot of money for better ISO performance...
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Complete madness!!!
By all means if an IQ140 will do what you want it to do then go with an IQ140. You will save considerable cost.
For some people the improvements in the IQ250 vs the 140 wouldn't be worth $500 (e.g. they shoot fixed-camera, fixed focus, product shots on white at base ISO in studio). For others they'd be worth it at twice the price.
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Just a curiosity (not that I have the money to buy one...), when I saw Kevin video of live view one thing I missed from what I'm use to Canon is in live view a live histogram, is that possible? Not that representens a major problem, just a few pictures and you can adjust the histogram as you like it, it just makes everything quicker...
No. But I think that would a nice addition!
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The pricing makes sense.
Priced like a D4x+Otus, it would be compared on performance/look and the outcome is... unclear.
Priced as it is, it simply IS better! ;)
Anyway, kudos to Phaseone for having finally released a back whose specs got me interested... but no point in speaking with the banker until all the players put their cards on the table, that is Pentax, Nikon and... who knows... Canon.
Cheers,
Bernard
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Can the live view be captured in 24 fps?
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Sony Exmor technology with largest pixel size so far and with MF-style bayer color filters (ie color rendition a higher priority than high ISO).
The pixel pitch of 5.4 microns [EDIT: actually 5.3 microns and 8280 x 6208 = 51.4MP according to the IQ2 series specs page (http://www.phaseone.com/en/Camera-Systems/IQ2-Series/IQ2-Specifications.aspx)] is smaller than the 6 microns of Sony's 24MP, 36x24mm Exmor sensors (A7, etc.), but bigger than the 4.9 microns of the D800 and A7R.
I wonder what the CFA's will be like:
- the same as MF makers have been getting from Kodak/Truesense and Teledyne-Dalsa,
- the same as Sony has been using on previous Exmor sensors,
- or something else again?
I do not how much these design details are controlled by sensor maker vs camera maker, but hopefully the MF camera and back makers get to set their priorities in the trade-off between color accuracy and sensitivity (aka "ISO").
P. S. Will there be a video hack?!
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Can the live view be captured in 24 fps?
You cannot capture or record video, if that's what you mean.
Live view on the IQ250 is for focusing/composition etc and runs around 24fps.
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The pixel pitch of 5.4 microns is smaller than the 6 microns of Sony's 24MP, 36x24mm Exmor sensors (A7, etc.), but bigger than the 4.9 microns of the D800 and A7R.
Indeed, and that makes the mentioned 14-bit engineering DR seem a plausible number.
I wonder what the CFA's will be like:
- the same as MF makers have been getting from Kodak/Truesense and Teledyne-Dalsa,
- the same as Sony has been using on previous Exmor sensors,
- or something else again?
I do not how much these design details are controlled by sensor maker vs camera maker, but hopefully the MF camera and back makers get to set their priorities in the trade-off between color accuracy and sensitivity (aka "ISO").
We'll soon know, but it would seem plausible that stricter separation CFA characteristics are chosen over sensitivity (which will still jump (from a CCD perspective). This would also put the 'CCD color' debate to rest. The only worrying comment is from their datasheet, which states 14-bit color compared to 16-bit color for the other IQ backs, but maybe that's just marketing speak while trying to cover their ass for prior claims of superior color. We'll see.
Several stops more sensitive at a comparable noise level than CCD, and a stop more DR, sounds like a good deal for MF users.
Cheers,
Bart
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Yes, the video was the thing I was wondering about. Potentially a future update? Also of course if Leaf will introduce something CMOS too or if Phase will make this available in Hy6 mount. And actually I wondered about the price - very surprised - would have expected it about $10k less.
Good live view has to be a big advantage.
I hope also to see larger sensors too since 44x33 is smaller even that really old sensors like the p25 and when Leica came out with the S people then were saying it wasn't really even MF but a tweener. I feel that one of the advantages of MF is the look of the larger sensor - so the bigger the better.
Are there any full size sample images out there? I'm more interested in seeing base ISO and ISO 1600 than 6400.
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The only worrying comment is from their datasheet, which states 14-bit color compared to 16-bit color for the other IQ backs, but maybe that's just marketing speak while trying to cover their ass for prior claims of superior color. We'll see.
Sony's ADCs on die - so they are 14bit output off sensor...
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I'm more interested in seeing base ISO and ISO 1600 than 6400.
Same here. There is probably little benefit from anything more than ISO 1600, combined with underexposing in camera, with an exposure push in the Raw conversion process (underexposure also creates more headroom for specular highlights and direct lightsources in the image).
Cheers,
Bart
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Yes, the video was the thing I was wondering about. Potentially a future update? Also of course if Leaf will introduce something CMOS too or if Phase will make this available in Hy6 mount. And actually I wondered about the price - very surprised - would have expected it about $10k less.
If you watch the skype interview between Michael, Kevin and the Phase One guys, they comment this topic for a moment. Basically Phase One says their focus with this back is photography, so don't expect to see video recording in it. They also comment that for the moment they don't see exactly how enabling video will differentiate then for the rest of makers of high-end video recording equipment... (not sure if that means that until they found that out they will not release anything or that they are building some kind of product with that market in mind...)
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Indeed, and that makes the mentioned 14-bit engineering DR seem a plausible number.
We'll soon know, but it would seem plausible that stricter separation CFA characteristics are chosen over sensitivity (which will still jump (from a CCD perspective). This would also put the 'CCD color' debate to rest. The only worrying comment is from their datasheet, which states 14-bit color compared to 16-bit color for the other IQ backs, but maybe that's just marketing speak while trying to cover their ass for prior claims of superior color. We'll see.
I have a quite lengthy article about this coming for you on Monday :).
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I have a quite lengthy article about this coming for you on Monday :).
Hi Doug,
Thanks. Looking forward to it, because that could lift a veil of speculation and inject some sanity into the decision process. Have a nice weekend, if you can find some time to enjoy.
Cheers,
Bart
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If you watch the skype interview between Michael, Kevin and the Phase One guys, they comment this topic for a moment. Basically Phase One says their focus with this back is photography, so don't expect to see video recording in it. They also comment that for the moment they don't see exactly how enabling video will differentiate then for the rest of makers of high-end video recording equipment... (not sure if that means that until they found that out they will not release anything or that they are building some kind of product with that market in mind...)
Thanks for clarifying. I bet Sony is planning a 70mm replacement, that's the only way they can outdo Red and Arri. A 24 fps live view means there is a sensor readout. The question is, at what resolution?
I'm sure somebody will come out with video eventually. Leica has already shown they are willing...
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Here is one from our client Justine Ungaro:
(http://www.doug-peterson.com/download/Phase-One-IQ250-JustineUngaro-ISO1600.jpg)
I hate to spoil the show for everyone, but I fail to be impressed by the noise in that picture.
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As Michael comments, if they are able to record full resolution will be more than 8k
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Synn,
...that begs the question; how long will Sony be content making just the sensor and relegated to be "Always a bridesmaid, never the bride" status? The current day Sony is very hungry, pushing envelops in every business area they are in and I won't be surprised if they develop a new platform based on this sensor family at some point.
Not only that, but as manufacturer of the sensor, Sony will know the number of units sold to Phase One et al, if not actually to photographers, and therefore will be able to make an informed decision on the feasibility of releasing a camera of their own.
Regards,
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Quick Tease
Many more images and tests to come. Here is one from our client Justine Ungaro:
(http://www.doug-peterson.com/download/Phase-One-IQ250-JustineUngaro-ISO1600.jpg)
Not to throw any cold water on this, but this sample looks like over exposed 35mm cmos, kind of that sand on the sensor look, but it could just be web reproduction.
What surprises me is cost. I thought for a long time the costs of medium format was the single purpose ccd sensors in larger sizes, though now we're being offered cmos at the same or more in price.
Sometimes I think the guys that price electronics are the same people that balance government budgets.
The other is it will be an everybody sensor. I know each manufacturer will claim it's different and it probably will have a different look from Phase to Hasselblad, to Pentax, but my question is what keeps Sony from coming out with a super sized A7 that with adapters takes Contax, Hasselblad, Mamiya and all forms of medium format lenses.
They did it with the d800 sensor at almost 1/2 the price of Nikon, so why not with this?
Especially since Sony seems quite happy to throw a lot of stuff at the wall to see what sticks.
IMO
BC
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"is what keeps Sony from coming out with a super sized A7 that with adapters takes Contax, Hasselblad, Mamiya and all forms of medium format lenses"
only the bean counters.
they would just get zeiss to make their lenses for an oversized A7r type body and leave the adapters to other people. it's all perfectly feasible just depends on the fiscal projections.
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I hate to spoil the show for everyone, but I fail to be impressed by the noise in that picture.
Me too, and also not by the color tonality/detail either.
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Doug,
Love to see the IQ280 with sensor plus at 1600 compared to the 250 with something like the earlier portrait shot.
Eric
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Not to throw any cold water on this, but this sample looks like over exposed 35mm cmos, kind of that sand on the sensor look, but it could just be web reproduction.
It probably has more to do with the photographer being inexperienced (camera came just out of the box) with the sensor. Although I'm guessing here, they probably used a film curve response as with their traditionally underexposed CCD images, where a linear curve allows (up to a stop) better exposure (= lower shot noise) and studio light would be plentyfull, and the ISO 6400 doesn't help either because beyond ISO 1600 there is no benefit (one probably is better off underexposing from that point of gain setting).
I would not draw too many conclusions from that somewhat 'rushed' shot.
Cheers,
Bart
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It probably has more to do with the photographer being inexperienced (camera came just out of the box) with the sensor. Although I'm guessing here, they probably used a film curve response as with their traditionally underexposed CCD images, where a linear curve allows (up to a stop) better exposure (= lower shot noise) and studio light would be plentyfull, and the ISO 6400 doesn't help either because beyond ISO 1600 there is no benefit (one probably is better off underexposing from that point of gain setting).
I would not draw too many conclusions from that somewhat 'rushed' shot.
Cheers,
Bart
Your probably right, but then again why show it?
BC
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Your probably right, but then again why show it?
BC
I would be surprised if the shooter wasn't well versed in the Phase method prior to shooting a launch photo - I mean, this one image is all we have to tear apart for the weekend, so it had better be AMAZING.
I'm excited as the IP250 should do amazing in the wedding market. I have fears that the price point will prevent any major moves not already had. The IQ260 is about the same cost, so you get 10 extra MP or you get high ISO. 50MP really is the spot it seems in MFDB's - lowest price (in the H4/5D-50) with a distinct resolution advantage over 35mm. If anything, Hasselblad has the best pricepoint, so I hope this H5D-50C chatter comes in more in line with the current pricing ($30k for a kit with 80/2.8), thus pushing Phase to be a IQ250 kit around $35k. It will be fun to see side by side comparison between the two cameras with the same chip.
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Doug, I'm not seeing anything SensorPlus on the pages yet - is ISO6400 at full 50mp or a 12.5mp file?
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Lots of folks also seem to overlook just how the sensor crop factor will effect your end result. 1:3 as I understand it is the same as the crop the Canon 1d Mkiv had 1.3x.
This makes your 28mm now a 36mm.
The p45+ was 1:1 and many times I made mistakes and cropped of the top of a shot with my DF as I never used the masks.
If you shoot wides tech camera or DF+ this will be a big consideration.
Paul Caldwell
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Doug, I'm not seeing anything SensorPlus on the pages yet - is ISO6400 at full 50mp or a 12.5mp file?
Joe, it's at full 50MP, there is no Sensor+ with this sensor.
Cheers,
Bart
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I have had a unit for a few days now and the images look great at all ISOs and very usuable. Michael and I are going to put it through the test of shooting hand held medium format in Antarctica. Should be a lot of fun. With the higher ISO capability it should allow us to shoot even hand held with the 240mm. We probablly won't use live veiw much but it is a nice feature and very usable for focusing. It is very easy to execute on the DF+. When we get back I'll put it on the ALPA and try it out with various lenses and that is where live view should really be beneficial. We'll give a full report when we get back.
Kevin Raber
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Price reasoning seems to be that a small-CCD 50MP system (eg. H5D40) + D800 +lenses + 2 system pain is replaced by a single high resolving MF system.
It's a point of view.
But, I'm sure the honorable kaisha-in of Pentaksu will take into careful consideration the customer wishes about lower pricing in this thread, when they introduce the 645DII.
Edmund
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Price reasoning seems to be that a CCD 50MP system + D800 +lenses + 2 system pain is replaced by a single more flexible MF system.
I see that people discuss low light abilities of the new MF back. Are there equivalents of the Nikon 24, 28, 35, 50 and 85 f/1.4 lenses in MF? ::)
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Price reasoning seems to be that a CCD 50MP system + D800 +lenses + 2 system pain is replaced by a single high resolving MF system.
It's a point of view.
But, I'm sure the honorable kaisha-in of Pentaksu will take into careful consideration the customer wishes about lower pricing in this thread, when they introduce the 645DII.
Edmund
So… your guess is that MF makers will now discontinue their CCD backs, is it Edmund? …my guess is that CCD sales will rise, most will prefer to buy a smaller sensor but much cheaper D800E than a 68% rise in image area (that will add nothing to their photography) at 8 times the cost and that MF will benefit from the fact that there is now a "bridge" that will ease the advance to MF from FF…
P.S. Please remember that I was the one that predicted that this was going to be a 44X33 "entry-level" (for MF) product. ….still very profitable for MF makers though!
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In the past the biggest advantage MFDB offered were sensor size, sensor look (CCD), higher dynamic range, and better quality glass.
With the new IO 250, Phase one has replaced the unique CCD look to a mainstream DSLR CMOS (plus it's 1.3 crop) , equaled dynamic range of Sony based FF sensors, and in my mind offer inferior glass available from high end Canon, Zeiss, and Nikon. All this for $35K?
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Hi,
Neither do I.
As a general comment I feel Phase One exaggerates the high ISO capabilities of the IQ 250. Why? A couple of reasons.
1) I am shooting Sony Exmoor full frame and don't really shoot above ISO 100. Yeah 400 ISO is very good on the Alpha 99 I have. But for each doubling of ISO I loose one step of DR and I get 41% more noise. Phase One may claim otherwise, perhaps to much champagne celebrating the new Exmoor based IQ 250? Yes, it is possible to shoot ISO 6400, but the results will be a bit … blah.
2) It is obviously possible to shoot sports and theatre with Phase One, it could also be done with my Pentax 67. But you can use a camera made for available darkness like a Nikon D4 crank up ISO and shoot away with an f/1.4 lens or f/2 telephoto. I don't think we are going to see a lot of IQ 250s at the Olympic Games.
Being able to go up in ISO is a good thing, but I still feel that low ISO image quality is the most important feature for MFD.
But, live view is a godbless for technical camera shooters. Let's hope that Phase One makes a good job of reducing shutter induced camera shake shooting live view.
Best regards
Erik
I hate to spoil the show for everyone, but I fail to be impressed by the noise in that picture.
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Looks like you are right, Erik.
The 100% crop from iso 1600 looks really disappointing😒.
If this is the best it can do at 1600 I don't really see the advantage over the D800e..
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Let's hope that Phase One makes a good job of reducing shutter induced camera shake shooting live view.
You don't have shutter camera shake with a leaf shutter.
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With a Phase One DF or DF+ you still have a focal plane shutter firing also. Both shutters fire.
Paul
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Hi,
This is a 1600 ISO shot from the Alpha 99 I have. Distracting a bit from the IQ 250, but it is an Exmoor sensor, 1013 generation, so it is a bit relevant. A bit larger pixels than the IQ 250 (6 microns vs. 5.2 microns).
Best regards
Erik
Looks like you are right, Erik.
The 100% crop from iso 1600 looks really disappointing😒.
If this is the best it can do at 1600 I don't really see the advantage over the D800e..
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With a Phase One DF or DF+ you still have a focal plane shutter firing also. Both shutters fire.
Paul
….and if one happens to ever use Contax645, the shutter sound and feeling is …orgasmic! Something like riding an old Harley than a Honda.
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Yes, maybe, but orgasms don't make good pictures outside the T&A business.
Some folks I know get more exited by Ducatis than Harleys, tastes differ I guess.
Best regards
Erik
….and if one happens to ever use Contax645, the shutter sound and feeling is …orgasmic! Something like riding an old Harley than a Honda.
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My guess is that Pentax will be watching the comments about IQ250 quality very very carefully.
If people like the quality of the $30K Phase back, Pentax will place a bulk order with Sony. Then Pentax will release a $10K version of the 645D with the same sensor, and with a humble smile say "we think our 645DII is good value for money".
If people don't like the CMOS Phase images, then we might see a straight update of the 645DII with CCD, and the marketing slogan "get a real CCD camera at an affordable price".
Edmund
So… your guess is that MF makers will now discontinue their CCD backs, is it Edmund? …my guess is that CCD sales will rise, most will prefer to buy a smaller sensor but much cheaper D800E than a 68% rise in image area (that will add nothing to their photography) at 8 times the cost and that MF will benefit from the fact that there is now a "bridge" that will ease the advance to MF from FF…
P.S. Please remember that I was the one that predicted that this was going to be a 44X33 "entry-level" (for MF) product. ….still very profitable for MF makers though!
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Hi,
I actually think there is shake, but it is ignorable (just to be exact :-).
If you look at the Sony Alpha 7r it has some problems with shutter induced vibration, much depending on the shutter being closed exposure. So shutter is closed and immediately opened. If Phase One has done a real good job on the camera it would be possible to use live view and close and open central shutter without using the focal plane shutter. Or, it may be the Sony sensor has electronic first curtain like the one the SLT 99.
As a side note, both the Alpa FPS and the Hartblei HCam use a Mamiya focal plane shutter and it is supposed not to cause vibrations on those cameras, but shutter vibration has been reported on the Phase One cameras, AFAIK, so it is an interesting question.
Best regards
Erik
You don't have shutter camera shake with a leaf shutter.
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If you look at the Sony Alpha 7r it has some problems with shutter induced vibration
Some people on the internet reported about problems with Shutter Shock. I for one would say these people do have problems with their tripods, tripod heads or camera plates ... or a combination of the three. I for one can't detect any shutter shock when the camera is mounted carefully on decent equipment.
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Some people on the internet reported about problems with Shutter Shock. I for one would say these people do have problems with their tripods, tripod heads or camera plates ... or a combination of the three. I for one can't detect any shutter shock when the camera is mounted carefully on decent equipment.
shutter shock also affects you when you have camera in hands
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he unique CCD look
comrade Mao pales vs certain marketing types employed or otherwise enticed by P1 & Co...
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shutter shock also affects you when you have camera in hands
I was able to shoot very sharp captures hand held with a 50mm lens at 1/60''. Only very few - two out of ten - ... but still. If shutter shock would be the reason for softness the ratio would be zero out of ten. I think it's simply the very high resolution (low pixel pitch) that is extremely unforgiving regarding "movement" of any kind. Too, when the camera shoots tack sharp captures at any shutter speed off a tripod this also shows that the shutter alone does not introduce softness. It's a combination of things ...
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My guess is that Pentax will be watching the comments about IQ250 quality very very carefully.
If people like the quality of the $30K Phase back, Pentax will place a bulk order with Sony. Then Pentax will release a $10K version of the 645D with the same sensor, and with a humble smile say "we think our 645DII is good value for money".
If people don't like the CMOS Phase images, then we might see a straight update of the 645DII with CCD, and the marketing slogan "get a real CCD camera at an affordable price".
Edmund
Maybe… but don't forget the Credo coming… Pentax has to take that in mind too… P1 already has...
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Refurbished IQ140 (https://digitaltransitions.com/blog/dt-blog/phase-one-refurbished-bundle-summer-promos) and other IQ1 backs are still available. But no more new IQ140 are being made. The next several months will be the best time there has been to buy an IQ140 as I expect many to upgrade to the IQ250.
There are no Leaf/Credo products in this announcement.
Upgrade? (!!!!) …from a CCD IQ140 to a Cmos IQ250? …really? …well, I wouldn't, but again I would never buy a back unless it has MS capability (maybe I would make an exception for a S/H Dalsa 33mp one at a good price). …but that's only MO. ;)
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shutter shock also affects you when you have camera in hands
Haven't try a Contax… have you?
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Hi,
Some pretty serious people. Diglloyd to begin with, he used:
RRS TVC34L at 5' 3"
Arca Swiss Cube with RRS B2-Pro-II
RRS B6 plate on the A7r
2s self timer with wireless remote.
Jim Kasson measured it, 1/3 of the vibration level of the D800 (without MLU I guess)
RRS TVC-44, RRS BH-55
Joseph Holmes
Best regards
Erik
Some people on the internet reported about problems with Shutter Shock. I for one would say these people do have problems with their tripods, tripod heads or camera plates ... or a combination of the three. I for one can't detect any shutter shock when the camera is mounted carefully on decent equipment.
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My guess is that Pentax will be watching the comments about IQ250 quality very very carefully.
If people like the quality of the $30K Phase back, Pentax will place a bulk order with Sony. Then Pentax will release a $10K version of the 645D with the same sensor, and with a humble smile say "we think our 645DII is good value for money".
If people don't like the CMOS Phase images, then we might see a straight update of the 645DII with CCD, and the marketing slogan "get a real CCD camera at an affordable price".
Edmund
Agree with you. The value position of PhaseOne is interesting. Maybe the final images (when release is done) will be amazing. It won't be the first time that vendor examples are less than ideal to say the less.
The crop sensor place the back in the low spectrum, but at the same time the price is higher. Maybe when they release the new camera the combination will be quite appealing ?
PhaseOne still have the rest of the line so they can extract some extra money from been first and then rebalance if necessary.
Hasselblad is late to the party again, they promise multi shot capabilities. Will they withdraw the H5D-50?
The move from CCD is a risk, it destroy a differentiator of the MF product.
Let see how it goes, as always Phase One is willing to invest and deliver new products.
That deserves respect.
Best regards,
J. Duncan
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Or it may destroy the CCD myth, that is if the CCD myth is a myth.
Best regards
Erik
The move from CCD is a risk, it destroy a differentiator of the MF product.
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Pity they won't have decent software to use it with...
My guess is that Pentax will be watching the comments about IQ250 quality very very carefully.
If people like the quality of the $30K Phase back, Pentax will place a bulk order with Sony. Then Pentax will release a $10K version of the 645D with the same sensor, and with a humble smile say "we think our 645DII is good value for money".
If people don't like the CMOS Phase images, then we might see a straight update of the 645DII with CCD, and the marketing slogan "get a real CCD camera at an affordable price".
Edmund
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Some pretty serious people.
;D
I guess my problem is I am not a serious guy.
There are some guys whose expertise I rate very high and whose recommendations I trust. But this doesn't apply to these three guys.
Generally I do my own testing...
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I actually just sold my Imacon a few weeks ago and replaced it with a Sony A7 with a little change left over, I need to change my signature!. The sony works great with my mamiya lenses and matches to quality I got used to. I just need to find some wide lenses now lost with the crop factor. I will be getting a shift adapter so it will become a little tech cam and if need be can stitch to get full use of the lenses and match the resolution if the IQ250.
This assumes your only definition and measure of image quality is linear resolution, and that your only reason to buy a camera is to shoot resolution charts.
MF is for people with an appreciation for lens rendering, bokeh, tonality, color, highlight rendition and unique features/tools like true flash sync at 1/1600th, super fast tethering, built-in Wifi editing/control, and focus mask.
Your comment is even stranger given that you own (according to your signature) a 645 Pro TL with a 22mp digital back made over 11 years ago. You could just as easily sell that and buy a 22mp 5DII. But you don't. I imagine you appreciate some of these things then no?
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I was able to shoot very sharp captures hand held with a 50mm lens at 1/60''. Only very few - two out of ten - ... but still. If shutter shock would be the reason for softness the ratio would be zero out of ten.
Which camera are you referring to there? DF or A7r? I shoot my Hy6 handheld with the 50mm all the time at 1/30 and get mostly sharp shots without mirror up or anything. I cannot do that with the canon 5d2 or the phase DF, but easily with the Olympus om-d. I have read that the D800 is hard to shoot at slower speeds handheld but haven't tried it.
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Or it may destroy the CCD myth, that is if the CCD myth is a myth.
Best regards
Erik
Looking at the sample image, I'd say not likely. Right now, I'm betting that people will be saying the high ISO of the 250 is useful but at base the CCD's have a nicer file. But I hope to be proven wrong. We need more sample images.
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Looking at the sample image, I'd say not likely. Right now, I'm betting that people will be saying the high ISO of the 250 is useful but at base the CCD's have a nicer file. But I hope to be proven wrong. We need more sample images.
To borrow an old General Motors advertising line,
http://gallery.phaseone.com/#/Action-sports/Tim-Kemplemedia/
http://gallery.phaseone.com/#/Portrait/Justine-Ungaro/
These are not your grandfather's CCD colors.
All post production notwithstanding, compare that to this: http://gallery.phaseone.com/#/Fashion-beauty/Frederico-Martins/
There's a certain "Quality" in the last set that's not there in the first two.
All that said, I do hope this back works great with Rodenstock lenses and tech cameras. It might be just what landscapers were looking for.
All I know is, for my style of work, I will pick a CCD back any day.
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Product launches, whether for Phase, or for Apple, or for everyone else is always an interesting study in human dynamics. You will never, ever, find a product launch where the consensus is "it has everything we'd want, and the price is exactly what I want to pay".
Look back to early threads about the original iPhone announcement to see a study in a product which sold like bonkers, opened an entirely new market for a company, but which was predicted to fail for lack of any number of specific features or for being too expensive. (note: I'm NOT saying the IQ250 will be on the level of success of the iPhone, that would be silly – just using it as an extreme example on the spectrum of "chatter" vs "reality" at the launch of a product.)
As Abraham Lincoln said "You can please some of the people some of the time all of the people some of the time some of the people all of the time but you can never please all of the people all of the time."
My only regret is posting a crop of one file processed to my taste - it's a poor way to show off the high-ISO quality on this back. We have D800 vs IQ250 high ISO comparisons which I find favor the IQ250, and in general I can tell you that I (and I can only speak for me) will be very happy using ISO6400 on the IQ250 for my wedding shooting. But it seems best at this point to wait until Capture One 7.2 is out, our demo unit is in the office for testing by us and our clients, and we can share raws rather than processed-to-taste very small crops from very large files.
I'm flying out shortly and will be on a plane for 16 hours, after which I will be spending some quality time with my wonderful girlfriend whom - 10 days in HK (a nice place, but obviously far from home) has left me longing for a nice afternoon walking through Central Park, cold though it might be.
I'll see you all after the weekend. We'll have our demo unit next week and I can't wait to see what some of the extraordinarily talented photographers on this forum will do with it.
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Have a safe trip back and rest well, Doug. Thanks for answering all the questions patiently for what were wee hours for us here in South East Asia :)
p.s. Next time you're in this part of the world, do drop by here in Singapore. A round of drinks awaits you and it's on me.
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Let's hope that Phase One makes a good job of reducing shutter induced camera shake shooting live view.
You don't have shutter camera shake with a leaf shutter.
With a Phase One DF or DF+ you still have a focal plane shutter firing also. Both shutters fire.
I was responding to the post about live view. I suppose that the live view implementation in the yet to be issued sensor-camera combination uses the possibilities of the leaf shutter on lenses which have them. For live view to work, the focal plane shutter needs to be open and the mirror up. From that point, all what is needed for exposure is:
-close the leaf shutter
-flush the sensor
-open the leaf shutter for the exposure time and expose
-read the sensor with the leaf shutter closed
-re-open the leaf shutter and restore live view.
Besides: what are we talking about? The camera and shutter is not new. If the shutter was a problem, IQ280 users would have noticed.
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Hi,
Michael Reichmann reported on shutter induces vibration. I don't know if it was on the latest models.
The Hasselblad you shoot is built around the leaf shutter, while the original Mamiya was an FP shutter system, with LS lenses added on.
Alpa FPS and Hartblei HCam both use the Mamiya FP shutter, supposedly without problems. I asked Stefan Steib (the designer of the HCam) about it and he said that they mount the shutter in a elastomer frame in a body made of solid aluminium and they don't have vibrations.
Best regards
Erik
Besides: what are we talking about? The camera and shutter is not new. If the shutter was a problem, IQ280 users would have noticed.
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There's a certain "Quality" in the last set that's not there in the first two.
Frankly, that's a poor comparison. It's more a comparison between different styles, and retouch artists if any.
The only valid comparison, is by comparing 2 identical shots, with only the back switched.
Unfortunately, there will also be a need to change (and adjust for different) lenses if we want to use approximately the same framing to judge resolution.
All I know is, for my style of work, I will pick a CCD back any day.
Sounds like you already drew your conclusion, even before doing a double blind test, or seeing some good shots of the subjects you normally shoot and with the postprocessing style you prefer (i.e. how hard is it to achieve your preferred 'look').
I prefer to make my decisions based on facts, not assumptions.
Cheers,
Bart
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Frankly, that's a poor comparison. It's more a comparison between different styles, and retouch artists if any.
The only valid comparison, is by comparing 2 identical shots, with only the back switched.
Unfortunately, there will also be a need to change (and adjust for different) lenses if we want to use approximately the same framing to judge resolution.
Sounds like you already drew your conclusion, even before doing a double blind test, or seeing some good shots of the subjects you normally shoot and with the postprocessing style you prefer (i.e. how hard is it to achieve your preferred 'look').
I prefer to make my decisions based on facts, not assumptions.
Cheers,
Bart
everything is a poor comparison when not done in the way we want.
what else is new?
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Which camera are you referring to there? DF or A7r?
The initial post I was referring to was about the A7R...
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Hi,
Michael Reichmann reported on shutter induces vibration. I don't know if it was on the latest models.
The Hasselblad you shoot is built around the leaf shutter, while the original Mamiya was an FP shutter system, with LS lenses added on.
Alpa FPS and Hartblei HCam both use the Mamiya FP shutter, supposedly without problems. I asked Stefan Steib (the designer of the HCam) about it and he said that they mount the shutter in a elastomer frame in a body made of solid aluminium and they don't have vibrations.
Best regards
Erik
My impression (out of having used almost any MF camera around) is that camera vibration has absolutely nothing to do with leaf or focal plane shutter, Contax (which I mainly use) is the most "quiet" camera around because it has the smoothest mirror action around, Fuji GX680 (which I also use) is the most "vibrant" because its mirror is the most noisy around… Never the less, some think that because mirror action proceeds the shutter, that it doesn't matter… This is not correct, because there are secondary (and more) frequencies spread into the body because of it. Besides… focal plane shutter mechanisms (more than creating far less noise than any mirror action) are fitted on camera bodies via dumbing materials (sorbothane or similar) that reduce vibration to inconsiderable levels…
Particularly for Hasselblads, (both H and V) they use "curtains" to block light from the image area (Rolleis & Bronicas use the mirror itself) which adds as much vibration (if not more) as a focal plane shutter by itself. That's why "mirror lock" is so important for longish exposures… without it, one will get camera vibration even 2-3 secs after exposure started (until following frequencies settle down)…
For those of us that do MS, (I do 16x MS "micro step" every day) they know that tripod quality is the most important aspect for critical sharpness, unfortunately, tripods are not as good as we think they are and that shows in MS shots (particularly in 16x "microstep"). The tripod is not just how sturdy it seems and how heavy a load it can carry, but rather how fast it accelerates the vibration fed by the mirror to "earth" it. If the tripod doesn't behave as a "mechanical earthing circuit", which will "suck" vibration from the camera body, accelerate it as much as it can be and earth it, then it's a good (or bad) support system, …not a tripod.
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If people like the quality of the $30K Phase back, Pentax will place a bulk order with Sony. Then Pentax will release a $10K version of the 645D with the same sensor, and with a humble smile say "we think our 645DII is good value for money".
What makes you think that order wasn't placed a year ago? :-)
I suspect P/O and H are about to find themselves seriously undercut for an identical product with miles better handling.
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What makes you think that order wasn't placed a year ago? :-)
I suspect P/O and H are about to find themselves seriously undercut for an identical product with miles better handling.
If that is the case (which is a reasonable assumption), a prudent photographer might want to hold off on the purchase of a CMOS MFDB until things sort themselves out.
Bill
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If that is the case (which is a reasonable assumption), a prudent photographer might want to hold off on the purchase of a CMOS MFDB until things sort themselves out.
Bill
A prudent photographers would probably analyze the first generation offerings, pick his supplier of choice and then buy the second generation offering.
Provided all of this is worth it to him obviously…
It is a multi stage race but the first race was undeniably won by Phase One beating everybody else in speed...
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Hi,
We sort of presume that mirror lock up is used for any serious photography. But shutter vibration is not eliminated so easily.
Best regards
Erik
My impression (out of having used almost any MF camera around) is that camera vibration has absolutely nothing to do with leaf or focal plane shutter, Contax (which I mainly use) is the most "quiet" camera around because it has the smoothest mirror action around, Fuji GX680 (which I also use) is the most "vibrant" because its mirror is the most noisy around… Never the less, some think that because mirror action proceeds the shutter, that it doesn't matter… This is not correct, because there are secondary (and more) frequencies spread into the body because of it. Besides… focal plane shutter mechanisms (more than creating far less noise than any mirror action) are fitted on camera bodies via dumbing materials (sorbothane or similar) that reduce vibration to inconsiderable levels…
Particularly for Hasselblads, (both H and V) they use "curtains" to block light from the image area (Rolleis & Bronicas use the mirror itself) which adds as much vibration (if not more) as a focal plane shutter by itself. That's why "mirror lock" is so important for longish exposures… without it, one will get camera vibration even 2-3 secs after exposure started (until following frequencies settle down)…
For those of us that do MS, (I do 16x MS "micro step" every day) they know that tripod quality is the most important aspect for critical sharpness, unfortunately, tripods are not as good as we think they are and that shows in MS shots (particularly in 16x "microstep"). The tripod is not just how sturdy it seems and how heavy a load it can carry, but rather how fast it accelerates the vibration fed by the mirror to "earth" it. If the tripod doesn't behave as a "mechanical earthing circuit", which will "suck" vibration from the camera body, accelerate it as much as it can be and earth it, then it's a good (or bad) support system, …not a tripod.
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I predict a new internet forum war over the color look of Sony vs Teledyne-Dalsa vs Kodak/Truesense designs in formats larger than 36x24mm. After all, there have been fans of the "Kodak look" for a long time, going back to the era of Kodak full frame CCDs in early Olympus Four Thirds cameras. Indeed, there could be differences between these companies n their expertise and approaches to sensor color science.
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Hi Bill,
No, I guess that it will be a CCD vs. CMOS war before anyone has seen any real images from the IQ 250. Folks don't know about TrueSense and Dalsa but feel strong about CMOS vs. CCD.
Best regards
Erik
I predict a new internet forum war over the color look of Sony vs Teledyne-Dalsa vs Kodak/Truesense designs in formats larger than 36x24mm. After all, there have been fans of the "Kodak look" for a long time, going back to the era of Kodak full frame CCDs in early Olympus Four Thirds cameras. Indeed, there could be differences between these companies n their expertise and approaches to sensor color science.
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Hi,
Some pretty serious people. Diglloyd to begin with, he used:
RRS TVC34L at 5' 3"
Arca Swiss Cube with RRS B2-Pro-II
RRS B6 plate on the A7r
2s self timer with wireless remote.
Jim Kasson measured it, 1/3 of the vibration level of the D800 (without MLU I guess)
RRS TVC-44, RRS BH-55
Joseph Holmes
Best regards
Erik
Lloyd Chambers also said in the same article that 'Field conditions cannot be any better than this studio set up, only worse' (direct quote).
Well, I tested my A7R on a tripod in my backyard in 'field conditions' using a 600mm Mk II Canon lens with the metabones adapter. At f4 (wide open), at 1/10s, there is NO shutter shake. Sure the image gets a bit sharper at f5.6 1/800 sec, but you would expect that.
Shutter shake is independent of tripod/hand held status. And, any shake/vibration/motion blur would only get magnified at long focal lengths and slow shutter speeds. I found nothing from 1/10 to 1/800 that would suggest shutter shock.
I do not deny Lloyd Chambers findings. Only saying I have not been able to duplicate them.
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Hi,
As a side note, both the Alpa FPS and the Hartblei HCam use a Mamiya focal plane shutter and it is supposed not to cause vibrations on those cameras, but shutter vibration has been reported on the Phase One cameras, AFAIK, so it is an interesting question.
Best regards
Erik
Erik..... I have news for you. The FPS has big time shutter shake which is very noticeable with longer lenses. I know this for a fact as I have bought, tested and returned for that reason.
Victor
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My only regret is posting a crop of one file processed to my taste - it's a poor way to show off the high-ISO quality on this back.
Doug,
Have a safe flight and hope you enjoyed Hong Kong.
I love it there. It's like NY modern and our crews are amazingly good and huge fun.
I've made that flight 3 times and dig it because I can sleep runway to runway.
Hey, don't feel bad about the samples you posted. You just posted what you had, but honestly Phase isn't the only company to produce "c__ppy samples" at camera introduction.
In fact those wedding photographer samples are good compared to the stuff PDN ran. Those are beyond explanation and the only thing worse is PDn and the photographer raved on about them.
Now that's scary.
Honestly though when they've had that camera out for testing for I assume a good period, why not produce better imagery?
Personally, I'm not a fan of most cmos because in most cases I find it weak especially when stretched to anything over 1200 iso.
What surprises me is when I compared it to this Olympus em-5 image at the Sony store at 1000 iso. This was the worse lighting ever, with mixed tungsten, tv lcds, led's blinking, mall lights strobbing.
We're talking about a camera that retails now at $800 and I purposely didn't add any noise reduction because I liked the look and when Phase talks about "film grain look", they need to talk to olympus.
(http://www.russellrutherford.com/stony_store_small.jpg)
I'll admit this is not a pretty photograph, but I'm not throwing it on my site or creating a blog glowing about it.
Here's the same iamge at 100% processed from a jpeg of all things and cropped with 1/3 taken off.
http://tinyurl.com/olymus-at-100-1000iso
What I expect from a $35,000 is much more than this and I don't think the samples showed it.
Obviously this image is medium format territory with studio flash (though handheld and manually focused) with my contax and a P30+, at 200 iso.
(http://www.russellrutherford.com/RED_COMPARE.jpg)
What isn't typical medium format is this, shot hand held with the contax at 60th of a second f2.8 using window light and soft card fill and it was a very dark day in NY.
p21+ at 400 iso (pushed in curves about 2.3 stop) and the post work was very minimal
(http://www.russellrutherford.com/BLUE_COMPARE.jpg)
I've done this type of shot 30 times and it doesn't miss a beat, even if I go to 800 iso which doesn't worry me in the least.
The thing is Phase makes equipment, maybe too good, as with this new release and prior to that the other products I saw no reason to make a change.
For one I love the Contax and my p backs. They're like war zone solid. I just bought the S2 to use my contax lenses and love the camera, but in doing a quick test last night, it makes me aware of how good the contax is and with the older phase backs t how much they offer compared to a lot of medium format that's available today.
But these are my favorite still cameras I use today and they're way different.
(http://www.russellrutherford.com/STILL_CAMERAS.jpg)
Everything on that table costs equal to the price of the new phase back (if buying today).
The most advanced is the olympus as you can shoot a print ad and a broadcast commercial with it, if you know how to do post. The viewfinder makes everything else I've tried look tiny and then there is the costs. It costs less than 1/2 of the sales tax on the new phase back, so for 35 large
there really needs to be serious innovation, because the phase back costs more than one of my RED's.
I always say buy a camera if you emotionally want it (like a lecia) or if it will allow you to do something other cameras don't, (the olympus and the Contax).
But for another stop of iso and what I perceive (from the recent samples shown) I'm a little bit of loss as to what the new phase backs offers.
Maybe they'll surprise us with better samples, but if I was a dealer I'd be all over Phase's marketing department for the imagery they are pushing out with this introduction, because you shouldn't have to explain why it's not up to professional levels.
The one trend I picked up from the samples Phase featured, was everyone seems to have some kind of blog or link on their site pushing the new back. The wedding girl has marginal samples and glowing remarks, the bicycle guy even has a link that says contact for a test drive.
Then there are all these quotes throughout the media (web media) of can't wait to test drive this baby, or I'm sure we'll be shooting with a billion millimeter lens hand held.
This is all just non verified marketing at a not very flattering level.
If Phase want's to dismiss the ccd vs. cmos thing, shoot something worthwhile with both a ccd and cmos camera.
But Doug, your quote that people that use low iso are only shooting product on white in studio is far from fact. I've been shooting every camera I own in every situation possible for a long time and I'm sure i'm not alone.
(http://www.russellrutherfordgroup.com/life/pictures/rr_life_0042.jpg)
(http://www.russellrutherford.com/sports/pictures/001rr_sports_june_08.jpg)
(http://russellrutherford.com/life/pictures/095rr_life_june_08.jpg)
IMO
BC
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"The thing is Phase makes equipment, maybe too good, as with this new release and prior to that the other products I saw no reason to make a change. "
This is a big problem for phase/leaf/HBlad in the U.K*(and maybe elsewhere) in that there isn't much churn with owners wanting to upgrade, for a lot of working photographers once they had a 40-50mp (22-30 if fashion/editorial) back they just stuck with it as they don't exactly wear out and that's a big enough file for most uses.
I don't know anyone who has bothered to upgrade beyond that level and most have invested in things like blackmagic cinema cameras or canon C100/300 (not RED that's for the yanks) as paying £1000's for a few extra mp generates zero extra income.
*from somebody in the business of selling digital backs
I guess they will try to make as much money as possible before all the other players dilute the market and prices have to go down a bit like they do for most cameras over their shelf life.
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"The thing is Phase makes equipment, maybe too good, as with this new release and prior to that the other products I saw no reason to make a change. "
This is a big problem for phase/leaf/HBlad in the U.K*(and maybe elsewhere) in that there isn't much churn with owners wanting to upgrade, for a lot of working photographers once they had a 40-50mp (22-30 if fashion/editorial) back they just stuck with it as they don't exactly wear out and that's a big enough file for most uses.
I don't know anyone who has bothered to upgrade beyond that level and most have invested in things like blackmagic cinema cameras or canon C100/300 (not RED that's for the yanks) as paying £1000's for a few extra mp generates zero extra income.
*from somebody in the business of selling digital backs
I guess they will try to make as much money as possible before all the other players dilute the market and prices have to go down a bit like they do for most cameras over their shelf life.
"big problem" for who? …if they don't "upgrade" it's obviously because they see no "upgrade". Pros don't value "upgrade" with MP count… they value it with improving the presentation of their work… Take my case for instance, I use Contax 645 with all its lenses but the 350 and an Imacon 528c MFDB which does 16x MS (microstep) on a daily basis and beautiful single-shot too… I also use Fuji GX680 (with Contax plate on it) with 5 lenses and a D800E as well as a D4… Upgrade to what?
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"The thing is Phase makes equipment, maybe too good, as with this new release and prior to that the other products I saw no reason to make a change. "
This is a big problem for phase/leaf/HBlad in the U.K*(and maybe elsewhere) in that there isn't much churn with owners wanting to upgrade, for a lot of working photographers once they had a 40-50mp (22-30 if fashion/editorial) back they just stuck with it as they don't exactly wear out and that's a big enough file for most uses.
I don't know anyone who has bothered to upgrade beyond that level and most have invested in things like blackmagic cinema cameras or canon C100/300 (not RED that's for the yanks) as paying £1000's for a few extra mp generates zero extra income.
*from somebody in the business of selling digital backs
I guess they will try to make as much money as possible before all the other players dilute the market and prices have to go down a bit like they do for most cameras over their shelf life.
You don't know anyone who has upgraded from 40 megapixels to 60 or 80 megapixels? That doesn't really mean anything other than you don't know who they are.
What protects Phase One somewhat from the syndrome you describe (products too good, no compelling business reason to upgrade) - and why I don't subscribe to that viewpoint - is that their target market can easily afford to upgrade whether there are compelling business advantages or not, and frequently do.
Steve Hendrix
Capture Integration
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at 1/10s, there is NO shutter shake.
so true... @ 1/10 you might get tripod shake, but shutter shake is @ shorter exposures... it dies too quickly (it is not a continued vibration) to show any effect for 1/10 exposure... you need to see what is it around 1/60-1/100 probably
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But Doug, your quote that people that use low iso are only shooting product on white in studio is far from fact. I've been shooting every camera I own in every situation possible for a long time and I'm sure i'm not alone.
??? I definitely did not say that. Here is the quote you're referring to.
For some people the improvements in the IQ250 vs the 140 wouldn't be worth $500 (e.g. they shoot fixed-camera, fixed focus, product shots on white at base ISO in studio). For others they'd be worth it at twice the price.
I was simply point out two ends of the spectrum of needs/use. SOME shooters fall into the one end (only need low ISO, only shoot in studio) and others fall at the other end of the spectrum.
Great pics btw.
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J,
Phase are now marketing themselves as Ferrari. They're turning themselves into a luxury brand for people with unlimited money.
Before the IQ 250 came out, I didn't quite realize that the Leica S is now a value proposition, but I guess Leica still think of themselves as Mercedes.
Edmund
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That's one of the exciting things about the sony A7 that replaced my digital back, mirror lock is no longer needed since it has an electronic first shutter. Hopefully one day that tech will make it to medium format.
Hi,
We sort of presume that mirror lock up is used for any serious photography. But shutter vibration is not eliminated so easily.
Best regards
Erik
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You don't know anyone who has upgraded from 40 megapixels to 60 or 80 megapixels? That doesn't really mean anything other than you don't know who they are.
What protects Phase One somewhat from the syndrome you describe (products too good, no compelling business reason to upgrade) - and why I don't subscribe to that viewpoint - is that their target market can easily afford to upgrade whether there are compelling business advantages or not, and frequently do.
Steve Hendrix
Capture Integration
No I don't personally know any that have upgraded beyond that level but I don't work/socialise with rich amateurs or art market types who indulge (I did some work with a well known artist last year but phase gave them a back for the kudos) and obviously the target market for phase isn't working Ad/design photographers, some people upgrade as I see the backs on the shelves of the dealers but clients are not often demanding an extra 20mp and from a business point of view there is little reason to upgrade. clients pay for imagery not an equipment list.
I'm sure the IQ250 will sell as it offers more than just the usual mpixel bump.
I believe churn is an issue as I see it myself and the source of the comment was high enough up the chain. But it's obviously not reflected in all markets.
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so true... @ 1/10 you might get tripod shake, but shutter shake is @ shorter exposures... it dies too quickly (it is not a continued vibration) to show any effect for 1/10 exposure... you need to see what is it around 1/60-1/100 probably
Vibration from shutter is always the same no matter what the shutter speed is, all mirror, shutter curtains speed and shutter phase change are constant speed actions.
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That's one of the exciting things about the sony A7 that replaced my digital back, mirror lock is no longer needed since it has an electronic first shutter. Hopefully one day that tech will make it to medium format.
It also has EVF only...
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Hi,
Same with my Alpha 99 SLT.
Best regards
Erik
That's one of the exciting things about the sony A7 that replaced my digital back, mirror lock is no longer needed since it has an electronic first shutter. Hopefully one day that tech will make it to medium format.
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No I don't personally know any that have upgraded beyond that level but I don't work/socialise with rich amateurs or art market types who indulge (I did some work with a well known artist last year but phase gave them a back for the kudos) and obviously the target market for phase isn't working Ad/design photographers, some people upgrade as I see the backs on the shelves of the dealers but clients are not often demanding an extra 20mp and from a business point of view there is little reason to upgrade. clients pay for imagery not an equipment list.
I'm sure the IQ250 will sell as it offers more than just the usual mpixel bump.
I believe churn is an issue as I see it myself and the source of the comment was high enough up the chain. But it's obviously not reflected in all markets.
I feel that the target market for Phase One is as much an economic target market than a specific type of user. From that standpoint, they create products for all sorts of users who can afford them. Naturally working Ad/Design photographers that can afford the product who make the purchase based more on what is best or needed for their business will be in the minority, though not entirely excluded. I do agree that "churn" is always a concern, what I see is that it has not been an issue in recent years. Phase One has been successful in confronting it. It's an issue for all manufacturers of photographic equipment.
But also I believe the pace at which users upgrade to the newest models is somewhat cyclical and somewhat dependent on the features offered vs the previous generation. IQ1 series was a smash hit, but it had the double impact of users who had held off on the P65+ upgrade from P45+ and older, and also from the pent up demand for the features it offered. The IQ250 is just one model and part of the IQ2 series, though it represents a departure in terms of features and therefore target market (from a usage standpoint).
Steve Hendrix
Capture Integration
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Vibration from shutter is always the same no matter what the shutter speed is, all mirror, shutter curtains speed and shutter phase change are constant speed actions.
no dear, shutter impact is not like this (and it is not about constant speed of shutter blade/s/ during exposure - it is about the impact of the blade when it comes to stop for example, more so in mirrorless camera's operation, when there no things that can lessen the number of impacts/delay between those like electronic first curtain and/or small delay before the start of actual exposure, after LV feed ceased and camera's body is light /and in some cases IBIS/OIS is not ideal and might be affected too - that is not A7r case, but it is in m43 cameras for example/ )... it is not a continued vibration more so... it affects only a certain range of exposure times and 1/10 is not in this range... because exposure during the time frame when blur is caused by shutter blade(s) impact is way less than the rest of exposure time... so you simply will not see it with longer exposures like 1/10.
http://www.falklumo.com/lumolabs/articles/k7shutter/
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Have a safe trip back and rest well, Doug. Thanks for answering all the questions patiently for what were wee hours for us here in South East Asia :)
p.s. Next time you're in this part of the world, do drop by here in Singapore. A round of drinks awaits you and it's on me.
Likewise when you're next in NYC, Synn!
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so true... @ 1/10 you might get tripod shake, but shutter shake is @ shorter exposures... it dies too quickly (it is not a continued vibration) to show any effect for 1/10 exposure... you need to see what is it around 1/60-1/100 probably
I guess you did not read my post fully, I said I tested from 1/10 to 1/800. The sequence was 1/10, 1/25, 1/50, 1/100, 1/250, 1/400 and finally 1/800. No shutter shake at any speed. I also did random numbers in between, e.g. 1/30, 1/40, 1/60 etc.
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I guess you did not read my post fully, I said I tested from 1/10 to 1/800. The sequence was 1/10, 1/25, 1/50, 1/100, 1/250, 1/400 and finally 1/800. No shutter shake at any speed. I also did random numbers in between, e.g. 1/30, 1/40, 1/60 etc.
I read this "Well, I tested my A7R on a tripod in my backyard in 'field conditions' using a 600mm Mk II Canon lens with the metabones adapter. At f4 (wide open), at 1/10s, there is NO shutter shake. Sure the image gets a bit sharper at f5.6 1/800 sec, but you would expect that."... I am not sure why use BOLD letters proclaiming absence of shutter induced shake @ 1/10s :-) whereas everybody knows that it is not the shutter speed to test for it (if you want to isolate its effects and not other efects like when you have a really bad tripod/head/whatever)... as for your testing @ faster 1/10 you indeed write = "I found nothing from 1/10 to 1/800 that would suggest shutter shock.", but that's another story, which in liew of your special accent on 1/10 exposure speed does not add any confidence in you as a tester, sorry... now reread how testing was done by Lumo and repeat (pay attention to the whole mass of camera/lens combo too - you might want to repeat it w/ FE lenses or so... I am getting way less shutter shake when I am using E-M1 with battery grip and P35-100/2.8 vs E-M1 alone with P20/1.7 and with the E-M1/P20/1.7 combo I am getting it in 1/100-1/200 shutter speed range... )
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I read this "Well, I tested my A7R on a tripod in my backyard in 'field conditions' using a 600mm Mk II Canon lens with the metabones adapter. At f4 (wide open), at 1/10s, there is NO shutter shake. Sure the image gets a bit sharper at f5.6 1/800 sec, but you would expect that."... I am not sure why use BOLD letters proclaiming absence of shutter induced shake @ 1/10s :-) whereas everybody knows that it is not the shutter speed to test for it (if you want to isolate its effects and not other efects like when you have a really bad tripod/head/whatever)... as for your testing @ faster 1/10 you indeed write = "I found nothing from 1/10 to 1/800 that would suggest shutter shock.", but that's another story, which in liew of your special accent on 1/10 exposure speed does not add any confidence in you as a tester, sorry... now reread how testing was done by Lumo and repeat (pay attention to the whole mass of camera/lens combo too - you might want to repeat it w/ FE lenses or so... I am getting way less shutter shake when I am using E-M1 with battery grip and P35-100/2.8 vs E-M1 alone with P20/1.7 and with the E-M1/P20/1.7 combo I am getting it in 1/100-1/200 shutter speed range... )
sorry, I thought it would be obvious if I said that 'sure things get sharper at 1/800' that I tested at many different speeds in between. My bad.
I also admit I am not a pro, do not make any money from photography and could hardly call myself an 'expert' of sorts and so yes, perhaps I am not the right kind of 'tester'.
However, I also find that there is way too much internet hype about this and many other issues. I do own (and have owned) expensive camera gear (the IQ180 for example) which while it does not qualify me to be an authority on anything, should at least suggest that I read a lot about photography and equipment and (hopefully) spend my money wisely.
Which is why, before investing further into the A7R lineup (I already have the Nex7 with a lot of Sony and Leica glass), I wanted to make sure with my own testing if the shutter shake is really an issue (for me) or not. So I set up a simple target in my backyard (yes, I do have Edmund Optics' resolution chart etc, but didn't want to use that, the idea being to simulate field conditions) for the test.
Yes, there are many things that can cause a blurry image at 1/10 sec with a 600mm lens on a tripod. Point is I got very sharp images all through from 1/10 to 1/800 sec.
It does not matter to me the least if you are not convinced in any way, that was never my intention. I am happy with my results and that is all I am concerned about. Wanted to say this for the benefit of others like me who may be worried about the 'shutter shake' phenomenon, that it may not affect all copies of the camera or perhaps there is some as yet undiscovered reason why not everyone has experienced it (and yes, I have discussed this with others who own the camera).
FWIW, I also tested (yes, the same 'crude' backyard test) my 70-200 f2.8 lens, my 24-105 f4 lens at various speeds, handheld and on tripod. No shake.
Again, I am not interested in duplicating anybody else's methodology. Just wanted to satisfy myself that my camera is alright, which it is. Now I can happily go ahead and order the 24-70 and other lenses as they become available.
Regards.
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With all due respect:
- if you see a difference between 1/800 and 1/10 sec, then you are confirming the fact that shutter vibration does have a negative effect,
- the heavier the lens, the less it is going to show so it is not surprising that the shake is limited with a 600mmf4.
Cheers,
Bernard
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With respect, posting 100% crops is not going to tell the whole story.
It will look almost exactly like any other exmoor CMOS sensor of similar pixel pitch. This is not surprising!
You have though twice the area and twice the pixels of a 135 format cmos sensor.
If you frame and shoot the same shot on say a D600/A7 vs an IQ250 you will have a much better print from the IQ250, it should be equivalent to about 1 stop better noise. It may have better resolution but at some point noise will kill resolution differences , so it will likely just print cleaner.
The downside here for MF is that I can buy relatively cheap f1.4 glass for 35mm and be two stops ahead of most fast MF lenses.
As a canon 35mm shooter this sounded great on the surface but as soon as you look at details (sensor size, fps, forced dark field frames, not to mention cost) it utterly falls apart as a proposition.
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With respect, posting 100% crops is not going to tell the whole story.
It will look almost exactly like any other exmoor CMOS sensor of similar pixel pitch. This is not surprising!
True. The per pixel performance is approximately equal.
You have though twice the area and twice the pixels of a 135 format cmos sensor.
If you frame and shoot the same shot on say a D600/A7 vs an IQ250 you will have a much better print from the IQ250, it should be equivalent to about 1 stop better noise. It may have better resolution but at some point noise will kill resolution differences , so it will likely just print cleaner.
Not quite. The IQ250 sensor is 44x33 mm = 1452 sq mm. The FF 135 sensor is 36x24 mm = 864 sq mm. The ratio is 1.68, not 2. Other factors being equal, this translates to a 0.74 stop difference in DR. The SNR varies with the square root of the number of photons collected. Other things again being equal, the IQ250 would collect 1.68 times the number of electrons and the SNR would improve by a factor of 1.3. Much better print than 135? Doubtful.
Show us your prints.
Regards,
Bill
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I hadnt bothered to do the calculations because in reality I will never own this back.. And it works out even poorer than my guestimate.
I already stitch multiple astro shots, not entirely sure where the ID250 advantage at high ISO is ..
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The point is not to race to see whether MF or 35mm can take a picture in the darkest environment. 35mm will always win that battle - they have f/1.2 (or even f/0.95) lenses, lenses with 2-3 stops worth of image stabilization, and bodies which sacrifice everything for better low light performance (e.g. low resolution, only "pretty good" color).
The point is, if you're considering medium format, but know you work in diverse situations, can you confidentially pack just an IQ250 where perhaps you could not with a P45+, or IQ180. Or can you pack an IQ250 where previously you would have packed an IQ160 and a 5DIII?
Some sports cars have no trunk, other sports cars have reasonable trunk storage. This announcement is like a sports car which has the same storage as a mid-sized SUV but still behaves like a sports car. The question is not whether it has more storage than a large SUV - it does not; but it will attract attention from more buyers than a sports car that had only a very small trunk.
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With all due respect:
- if you see a difference between 1/800 and 1/10 sec, then you are confirming the fact that shutter vibration does have a negative effect,
- the heavier the lens, the less it is going to show so it is not surprising that the shake is limited with a 600mmf4.
Cheers,
Bernard
Disagree respectfully.
I think we are causing thread drift, but nevertheless.
I tested the 600, 70-200, 24-105, which are my most commonly used lenses. I did not go wider than 24. I tested from 1/10 sec to either 1/400 for the shorter or 1/800 for the big telephoto lens, with variable speeds including 1/100, 1/250, at apertures ranging from wide open to f8. I wanted to eliminate as many variables as possible hence the tripod for all (I did test handheld too, but not extensively), shooting tethered.
I did not have a truly rigid setup for the big lens, using a P0 monoball instead of my Wimberley. I think it is a given that a 600mm lens would produce a sharper image at f5.6 and 1/800 than at f4 and 1/10 especially on a not so rigid support.
Perhaps the big lens eliminates shutter shake (kicking a bus as opposed to kicking a car as Lloyd says), but IMHO any shake, whether originating in the camera or lens or tripod would get magnified at longer focal lengths.
Here is a direct quote from Joseph Holmes (who claims he is one of the original three who highlighted this issue) "This happens more with longer lenses and more with lenses where the camera itself is not mounted directly to the tripod, rather the lens is mounted via its own foot, or its mounted to the foot of an adapter, so the camera is at the end of a “branch” sticking out in space, unsupported so that it is more readily made to shake."
Regards,
Pradeep
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Our first demo IQ250 has arrived! Testing to commence tomorrow and Friday.