Phase One IQ250 - 11 things you need to know and Q&A

[ErikKaffehr]

Or it may destroy the CCD myth, that is if the CCD myth is a myth.

Best regards
Erik

The move from CCD is a risk, it destroy a differentiator of the MF product.

[nik]

Pity they won't have decent software to use it with...

My guess is that Pentax will be watching the comments about IQ250 quality very very carefully.


If people like the quality of the $30K Phase back, Pentax will place a bulk order with Sony. Then Pentax will release a $10K version of the 645D with the same sensor, and with a humble smile say "we think our 645DII is good value for money".

If people don't like the CMOS Phase images, then we might see a straight update of the 645DII with CCD, and the marketing slogan "get a real CCD camera at an affordable price".

Edmund

[tho_mas]

Some pretty serious people.

 

I guess my problem is I am not a serious guy.

There are some guys whose expertise I rate very high and whose recommendations I trust. But this doesn't apply to these three guys.
Generally I do my own testing...

[Jason Denning]

I actually just sold my Imacon a few weeks ago and replaced it with a Sony A7 with a little change left over, I need to change my signature!. The sony works great with my mamiya lenses and matches to quality I got used to. I just need to find some wide lenses now lost with the crop factor. I will be getting a shift adapter so it will become a little tech cam and if need be can stitch to get full use of the lenses and match the resolution if the IQ250.

This assumes your only definition and measure of image quality is linear resolution, and that your only reason to buy a camera is to shoot resolution charts.

MF is for people with an appreciation for lens rendering, bokeh, tonality, color, highlight rendition and unique features/tools like true flash sync at 1/1600th, super fast tethering, built-in Wifi editing/control, and focus mask.

Your comment is even stranger given that you own (according to your signature) a 645 Pro TL with a 22mp digital back made over 11 years ago. You could just as easily sell that and buy a 22mp 5DII. But you don't. I imagine you appreciate some of these things then no?

[EricWHiss]

I was able to shoot very sharp captures hand held with a 50mm lens at 1/60''. Only very few - two out of ten - ... but still. If shutter shock would be the reason for softness the ratio would be zero out of ten.

Which camera are you referring to there?  DF or A7r?   I shoot my Hy6 handheld with the 50mm all the time at 1/30 and get mostly sharp shots without mirror up or anything.   I cannot do that with the canon 5d2 or the phase DF, but easily with the Olympus om-d. I have read that the D800 is hard to shoot at slower speeds handheld but haven't tried it.

[EricWHiss]

Or it may destroy the CCD myth, that is if the CCD myth is a myth.

Best regards
Erik

Looking at the sample image, I'd say not likely.  Right now, I'm betting that people will be saying the high ISO of the 250 is useful but at base the CCD's have a nicer file. But I hope to be proven wrong.  We need more sample images.

[synn]

Looking at the sample image, I'd say not likely.  Right now, I'm betting that people will be saying the high ISO of the 250 is useful but at base the CCD's have a nicer file. But I hope to be proven wrong.  We need more sample images.

To borrow an old General Motors advertising line,

http://gallery.phaseone.com/#/Action-sports/Tim-Kemplemedia/

http://gallery.phaseone.com/#/Portrait/Justine-Ungaro/

These are not your grandfather's CCD colors.

All post production notwithstanding, compare that to this: http://gallery.phaseone.com/#/Fashion-beauty/Frederico-Martins/

There's a certain "Quality" in the last set that's not there in the first two.


All that said, I do hope this back works great with Rodenstock lenses and tech cameras. It might be just what landscapers were looking for.
All I know is, for my style of work, I will pick a CCD back any day.

[Doug Peterson]

Product launches, whether for Phase, or for Apple, or for everyone else is always an interesting study in human dynamics. You will never, ever, find a product launch where the consensus is "it has everything we'd want, and the price is exactly what I want to pay".

Look back to early threads about the original iPhone announcement to see a study in a product which sold like bonkers, opened an entirely new market for a company, but which was predicted to fail for lack of any number of specific features or for being too expensive. (note: I'm NOT saying the IQ250 will be on the level of success of the iPhone, that would be silly – just using it as an extreme example on the spectrum of "chatter" vs "reality" at the launch of a product.)

As Abraham Lincoln said "You can please some of the people some of the time all of the people some of the time some of the people all of the time but you can never please all of the people all of the time."

My only regret is posting a crop of one file processed to my taste - it's a poor way to show off the high-ISO quality on this back. We have D800 vs IQ250 high ISO comparisons which I find favor the IQ250, and in general I can tell you that I (and I can only speak for me) will be very happy using ISO6400 on the IQ250 for my wedding shooting. But it seems best at this point to wait until Capture One 7.2 is out, our demo unit is in the office for testing by us and our clients, and we can share raws rather than processed-to-taste very small crops from very large files.

I'm flying out shortly and will be on a plane for 16 hours, after which I will be spending some quality time with my wonderful girlfriend whom - 10 days in HK (a nice place, but obviously far from home) has left me longing for a nice afternoon walking through Central Park, cold though it might be.

I'll see you all after the weekend. We'll have our demo unit next week and I can't wait to see what some of the extraordinarily talented photographers on this forum will do with it.

[synn]

Have a safe trip back and rest well, Doug. Thanks for answering all the questions patiently for what were wee hours for us here in South East Asia
p.s. Next time you're in this part of the world, do drop by here in Singapore. A round of drinks awaits you and it's on me.

[jerome_m]

Let's hope that Phase One makes a good job of reducing shutter induced camera shake shooting live view.

You don't have shutter camera shake with a leaf shutter.

With a Phase One DF or DF+ you still have a focal plane shutter firing also.  Both shutters fire.

I was responding to the post about live view. I suppose that the live view implementation in the yet to be issued sensor-camera combination uses the possibilities of the leaf shutter on lenses which have them. For live view to work, the focal plane shutter needs to be open and the mirror up. From that point, all what is needed for exposure is:
-close the leaf shutter
-flush the sensor
-open the leaf shutter for the exposure time and expose
-read the sensor with the leaf shutter closed
-re-open the leaf shutter and restore live view.

Besides: what are we talking about? The camera and shutter is not new. If the shutter was a problem, IQ280 users would have noticed.

[ErikKaffehr]

Hi,

Michael Reichmann reported on shutter induces vibration. I don't know if it was on the latest models.

The Hasselblad you shoot is built around the leaf shutter, while the original Mamiya was an FP shutter system, with LS lenses added on.

Alpa FPS and Hartblei HCam both use the Mamiya FP shutter, supposedly without problems. I asked Stefan Steib (the designer of the HCam) about it and he said that they mount the shutter in a elastomer frame in a body made of solid aluminium and they don't have vibrations.

Best regards
Erik

Besides: what are we talking about? The camera and shutter is not new. If the shutter was a problem, IQ280 users would have noticed.

[Bart_van_der_Wolf]

There's a certain "Quality" in the last set that's not there in the first two.

Frankly, that's a poor comparison. It's more a comparison between different styles, and retouch artists if any.
The only valid comparison, is by comparing 2 identical shots, with only the back switched.

Unfortunately, there will also be a need to change (and adjust for different) lenses if we want to use approximately the same framing to judge resolution.

All I know is, for my style of work, I will pick a CCD back any day.

Sounds like you already drew your conclusion, even before doing a double blind test, or seeing some good shots of the subjects you normally shoot and with the postprocessing style you prefer (i.e. how hard is it to achieve your preferred 'look').

I prefer to make my decisions based on facts, not assumptions.

Cheers,
Bart

[synn]

Frankly, that's a poor comparison. It's more a comparison between different styles, and retouch artists if any.
The only valid comparison, is by comparing 2 identical shots, with only the back switched.

Unfortunately, there will also be a need to change (and adjust for different) lenses if we want to use approximately the same framing to judge resolution.

Sounds like you already drew your conclusion, even before doing a double blind test, or seeing some good shots of the subjects you normally shoot and with the postprocessing style you prefer (i.e. how hard is it to achieve your preferred 'look').

I prefer to make my decisions based on facts, not assumptions.

Cheers,
Bart

everything is a poor comparison when not done in the way we want.
what else is new?

[tho_mas]

Which camera are you referring to there?  DF or A7r?

The initial post I was referring to was about the A7R...

[Theodoros]

Hi,

Michael Reichmann reported on shutter induces vibration. I don't know if it was on the latest models.

The Hasselblad you shoot is built around the leaf shutter, while the original Mamiya was an FP shutter system, with LS lenses added on.

Alpa FPS and Hartblei HCam both use the Mamiya FP shutter, supposedly without problems. I asked Stefan Steib (the designer of the HCam) about it and he said that they mount the shutter in a elastomer frame in a body made of solid aluminium and they don't have vibrations.

Best regards
Erik

My impression (out of having used almost any MF camera around) is that camera vibration has absolutely nothing to do with leaf or focal plane shutter, Contax (which I mainly use) is the most "quiet" camera around because it has the smoothest mirror action around, Fuji GX680 (which I also use) is the most "vibrant" because its mirror is the most noisy around… Never the less, some think that because mirror action proceeds the shutter, that it doesn't matter… This is not correct, because there are secondary (and more) frequencies spread into the body because of it. Besides… focal plane shutter mechanisms (more than creating far less noise than any mirror action) are fitted on camera bodies via dumbing materials (sorbothane or similar) that reduce vibration to inconsiderable levels…
 
Particularly for Hasselblads, (both H and V) they use "curtains" to block light from the image area (Rolleis & Bronicas use the mirror itself) which adds as much vibration (if not more) as a focal plane shutter by itself. That's why "mirror lock" is so important for longish exposures… without it, one will get camera vibration even 2-3 secs after exposure started (until following frequencies settle down)…

For those of us that do MS, (I do 16x MS "micro step" every day) they know that tripod quality is the most important aspect for critical sharpness, unfortunately, tripods are not as good as we think they are and that shows in MS shots (particularly in 16x "microstep"). The tripod is not just how sturdy it seems and how heavy a load it can carry, but rather how fast it accelerates the vibration fed by the mirror to "earth" it. If the tripod doesn't behave as a "mechanical earthing circuit", which will "suck" vibration from the camera body, accelerate it as much as it can be and earth it, then it's a good (or bad) support system, …not a tripod.

[ndevlin]

If people like the quality of the $30K Phase back, Pentax will place a bulk order with Sony. Then Pentax will release a $10K version of the 645D with the same sensor, and with a humble smile say "we think our 645DII is good value for money".

What makes you think that order wasn't placed a year ago? :-)

I suspect P/O and H are about to find themselves seriously undercut for an identical product with miles better handling.  

[bjanes]

What makes you think that order wasn't placed a year ago? :-)

I suspect P/O and H are about to find themselves seriously undercut for an identical product with miles better handling.  

If that is the case (which is a reasonable assumption), a prudent photographer might want to hold off on the purchase of a CMOS MFDB until things sort themselves out.

Bill

[JV]

If that is the case (which is a reasonable assumption), a prudent photographer might want to hold off on the purchase of a CMOS MFDB until things sort themselves out.

Bill

A prudent photographers would probably analyze the first generation offerings, pick his supplier of choice and then buy the second generation offering.

Provided all of this is worth it to him obviously…

It is a multi stage race but the first race was undeniably won by Phase One beating everybody else in speed...

[ErikKaffehr]

Hi,

We sort of presume that mirror lock up is used for any serious photography. But shutter vibration is not eliminated so easily.

Best regards
Erik

My impression (out of having used almost any MF camera around) is that camera vibration has absolutely nothing to do with leaf or focal plane shutter, Contax (which I mainly use) is the most "quiet" camera around because it has the smoothest mirror action around, Fuji GX680 (which I also use) is the most "vibrant" because its mirror is the most noisy around… Never the less, some think that because mirror action proceeds the shutter, that it doesn't matter… This is not correct, because there are secondary (and more) frequencies spread into the body because of it. Besides… focal plane shutter mechanisms (more than creating far less noise than any mirror action) are fitted on camera bodies via dumbing materials (sorbothane or similar) that reduce vibration to inconsiderable levels…
 
Particularly for Hasselblads, (both H and V) they use "curtains" to block light from the image area (Rolleis & Bronicas use the mirror itself) which adds as much vibration (if not more) as a focal plane shutter by itself. That's why "mirror lock" is so important for longish exposures… without it, one will get camera vibration even 2-3 secs after exposure started (until following frequencies settle down)…

For those of us that do MS, (I do 16x MS "micro step" every day) they know that tripod quality is the most important aspect for critical sharpness, unfortunately, tripods are not as good as we think they are and that shows in MS shots (particularly in 16x "microstep"). The tripod is not just how sturdy it seems and how heavy a load it can carry, but rather how fast it accelerates the vibration fed by the mirror to "earth" it. If the tripod doesn't behave as a "mechanical earthing circuit", which will "suck" vibration from the camera body, accelerate it as much as it can be and earth it, then it's a good (or bad) support system, …not a tripod.

[BJL]

I predict a new internet forum war over the color look of Sony vs Teledyne-Dalsa vs Kodak/Truesense designs in formats larger than 36x24mm. After all, there have been fans of the "Kodak look" for a long time, going back to the era of Kodak full frame CCDs in early Olympus Four Thirds cameras. Indeed, there could be differences between these companies n their expertise and approaches to sensor color science.