MF CMOS -- now it gets interesting

[Nick-T]

I shouldn't have mentioned Lunar in this thread as it will now get derailed by all the usual comments.

I'm sure you have better sources within Hasselblad than I have so I'm going to dis-engage from any further Lunar Stellar discussions here.

[uaiomex]

i hope soon every dentist, doctor, lawyer, etc., buy the whole planetary collection!
Eduardo

Here's the thing
The profits from the Lunar and stellar type cameras will allow Hasselblad to invest in medium format. Only around 10% of Hasselblad people are working on Lunar type products, one can only speculate on what the others are doing

[Ken R]

Put it this way, if they felt secure with CMOS, they would have discontinue CCD so that they differentiate from competition… Since they introduce CMOS in parallel to CCDs, 1.They are trying to gain the "first to do…" title, 2. They most probably will use that for entry level…  Believe me they'll be happy if they can add a few customers among "expensive" weddings photographers… they really need them, they may also succeed this time… I have a feeling that studio pros will turn their back to this.  But again, we are all speculating here… so am I.

I think PhaseOne has hinted that even when (not if) they come out with a back with a CMOS sensor they will keep the CCD product line. I mean, their 60 and 80mp are superb so why won't they? It is not like all of the sudden their current CCD sensor backs will stop working when their CMOS offering comes out. 

[uaiomex]

if the implementation of cmos technology into MF equipment doesn,t mean the possibility of substantially lower prices, i don't find this announcement exciting. Furthermore, I would still keep MF in my list of endangered species.
But, lets not forget that it was cmos technology that helped slr type cameras to become a true household comodity. Perhaps cmos tecnology will help MF gear be again the studio gear by excellence and every studio on earth will have at least one MF camera in the arsenal. Like it used to be.
And  we will live happily ever after.
 
Eduardo

[Theodoros]

if the implementation of cmos technology into MF equipment doesn,t mean the possibility of substantially lower prices, i don't find this announcement exciting. Furthermore, I would still keep MF in my list of endangered species.
But, lets not forget that it was cmos technology that helped slr type cameras to become a true household comodity. Perhaps cmos tecnology will help MF gear be again the studio gear by excellence and every studio on earth will have at least one MF camera in the arsenal. Like it used to be.
And  we will live happily ever after.
 
Eduardo

I agree with you Eduardo…, MF users (especially studio pros) find a quality in CCDs that Cmos DSLRs lack… Unless if Cmos will be cheaper, they won't trust it.  If they want DSLr performance, they may as well buy a DSLR… If this sensor turns out to be D800E's one resized to 44x33, it will certainly mean that this would be entry-level.

[eronald]

I think one can now reasonably expect an announcement of the H5D-40C, as higher-ISO replacement for the H5D-40, as the H5D40 has been the microlensed Hi-ISO camera in the Hassy range.

The H5D-40C might be even faster by being microlensed, even if the H5D-50C is not.

My (unconfirmed) info is that the new H5D-50C sensor is 36.7 x 49.1mm.

I expect a trickle of sensor announcements between now and Photokina, as Sony, Truesense, and Sony jockey for position. There will probably also be good deals on the current models as Hassy, Phase, Leica/Sinar and Pentax raise cash to commission production runs of their chosen sensors.

It will be interesting to see whether the CCD sensors are deprecated in new model ranges, or will coexist - at some point the MF guys should run out of the energy needed to tune every possible sensor/camera/lens combo, and should concentrate on just a few models.

Edmund

I agree with you Eduardo…, MF users (especially studio pros) find a quality in CCDs that Cmos DSLRs lack… Unless if Cmos will be cheaper, they won't trust it.  If they want DSLr performance, they may as well buy a DSLR… If this sensor turns out to be D800E's one resized to 44x33, it will certainly mean that this would be entry-level.

[Vladimirovich]

lets not forget that it was cmos technology that helped slr type cameras to become a true household comodity.

you are wrong - there were cheap (down to $500 in ~2006) entry level dSLRs on CCD sensors (like 6mp from Sony, 10mp from Sony)...

[BernardLanguillier]

The main value of CMOS I would be looking forward to is high quality live view a la DSLR enabling optimal focus whatever the light levels/shooting distance (in particular @ infinity) on view camera platforms.

If there is no improved live view in camera and if the sensor has not been optimized for shifted usage on view cameras, then I don't see much value in CMOS for what I do.

Considering the target market of Hassy MF, I would be extremely surprised if they had done that. I do understand though that better high ISO would be a very welcome news for some applications where these backs are used so I am not sure I agree that CCD remains a better bet.

Now, if the sensor is a Sony one, we can probably expect Pentax to announce a 645DII in a few weeks at CP+, this would mean that the sensor probably has the same size as that of the current 645D one.

Anyway, I am sure we'll get plenty of details very soon, including pricing.

Cheers,
Bernard

[Vladimirovich]

MF users (especially studio pros) find a quality in CCDs that Cmos DSLRs lack

yes, one certain PhD even found how many stops of DR advantage ? somebody remind me plz.

[BernardLanguillier]

yes, one certain PhD even found how many stops of DR advantage ? somebody remind me plz.

I think it was more than 5 and less than 7.  

But that was later clarified when a parallel was drawn with hifi and fine wines. The number was just a metaphor for "not measurable, but more to my liking as an owner of the best".

Cheers,
Bernard

[BJNY]

CFast 2.0 and [optical] Thunderbolt 2, please.

[eronald]

yes, one certain PhD even found how many stops of DR advantage ? somebody remind me plz.

I don't think that was me, as I sold my Phamiya, but then I also cannot remember when I last consulted Dr.Alzheimer:)

On the other hand I agree with Bernard about the usefulness of real-world liveview.

Last, not least, there is a lot of conflicting information about new MF sensors. I think several of us have seen or dreamt of different products.

Edmund

[Steve Hendrix]

I think PhaseOne has hinted that even when (not if) they come out with a back with a CMOS sensor they will keep the CCD product line. I mean, their 60 and 80mp are superb so why won't they? It is not like all of the sudden their current CCD sensor backs will stop working when their CMOS offering comes out. 

It is quite likely that CMOS and CCD will co-exist, at least for some time. I expect each to offer some advantages and capabilities that the other does not. We've certainly seen a variety of results with different MFD CCD sensors, especially with shift cameras and the various lens options.


Steve Hendrix
Capture Integration

[synn]

I hope this drives the price of old fat pixel backs down in the used market. I would like one and couldn't care less about stupid high ISOs.

[Vladimirovich]

I don't think that was me

indeed, you are not the only PhD around !

[eronald]

indeed, you are not the only PhD around !

And not the only idiot
Getting a PhD is like doing a martial arts apprenticeship - it's a multi-year full-time masochistic experience during which you will likely suffer permanent brain-damage

Edmund

[douglevy]

http://photorumors.com/2014/01/21/phaseone-iq250-coming-soon-with-a-new-50mp-cmos-sensor/

[ErikKaffehr]

Hi,

It says 15 EV DR, 2 FPS and 6400ISO. In line with what could be expected from fat pixel current generation CMOS. The FPS stuff is a bit interesting, it depends on the processing in the back but also on camera mechanics. Or, it could be an electronic shutter, bypassing the mirror box. Add an EVF, neat!

DR is a bit high, by the way, but I guess it is possible.

What confuses me is that they stay at 50MP, it doesn't make a lot of sense to me, but it may be that they intend it as a low end system for low light shooting. Hopefully it won't have crop factor.

Best regards
Erik

http://photorumors.com/2014/01/21/phaseone-iq250-coming-soon-with-a-new-50mp-cmos-sensor/

[nik]

Me.

Well, without the Jim Morrison Karaoke. And no leather pants. So, you owe me £10.

I hope it works out for them and that I am proven wrong as MF competition is good for all of us. I still own a V hassy and shoot the H sometimes, but I thought the Sony partnership with their silly wooden cameras and change of management was signaling the last gasp.

-Nik

"I'm with Nick.  How many people started doing a Jim Morrison Karaoke  "this is the end", when the lunar came out, or when live view of medium format wasn't equal to a dslr, or, Nikon made a inexpensive dslr."

£10 says you own a pair of leather trousers and know the words to "this is the end"

[BernardLanguillier]

What confuses me is that they stay at 50MP, it doesn't make a lot of sense to me, but it may be that they intend it as a low end system for low light shooting. Hopefully it won't have crop factor.

If I were them I would try to avoid a 1:1 comparison with their existing offering.

50mp has the following advantages:
- Since the positioning seems to be focusing on action shooting with MF (high ISO, "high" frame rate), it makes sense to keep the resolution low enough so as to maximize the high ISO quality and avoid that the shortcomings of AF show too much,
- It is more than 36,
- It is less than 60/80 (although so little less than it makes no practical difference whatsoever in most applications),
- It enables a slightly cheaper positioning, inline with the message that CMOS is lower end... that message probably remains important to keep the DSLR hordes away from the shores,
- It enables them not to take too much risk since they know that many of their customers only buy their backs with the highest possible resolution. Why spend nearly as much money without the bragging rights?

I wonder about live view in camera...

Their strategist must have many more white hair now than a year ago! 

Cheers,
Bernard