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Author Topic: MF CMOS -- now it gets interesting  (Read 57317 times)

Vladimirovich

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Re: MF CMOS -- now it gets interesting
« Reply #80 on: January 22, 2014, 01:47:20 am »

What confuses me is that they stay at 50MP, it doesn't make a lot of sense to me
if it is Sony they probably just "scaled" tried 24mp schematic to more area... get the same steppers that create their 24 mp FF sensors to expose more area in even more steps on wafer... just a clueless guess.
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Chris Livsey

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Re: MF CMOS -- now it gets interesting
« Reply #81 on: January 22, 2014, 02:25:31 am »

http://www.the.me/hasselblad-to-launch-worlds-first-medium-format-cmos-camera/

Has this been mentioned?

"BTW, the Hasselblad press release also mentions the company’s “new CEO Ian Rawcliffe.” You might remember controversial Hasselblad chairman and CEO Dr. Larry Hansen, the brain behind the photographic crimes Lunar and Stellar, pimped up Sony NEX-7s. Well no surprise, but Dr. Larry Hansen is history."



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Nick-T

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torger

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Re: MF CMOS -- now it gets interesting
« Reply #83 on: January 22, 2014, 03:15:45 am »

Concerning pricing, CCD is not the reason why medium format cameras are expensive. Sure large CCDs are expensive, but CMOS is too (would be even more expensive, but in this case DSLRs have financed most of the development cost already). The reason is low sales volumes and unwillingness and/or lack of resources to push to a wider market. It's hard to find actual CCD prices these days, but Kodak were quite public with them back in the days and then they would cost about $3000-$4000 for the manufacturer. These sensors end up in backs that cost $20-$30K. Surely the remaining hardware would not require that price to the end customer if the sales were in volume.

The properties of MF cameras has been such that it would not be that attractive to the average photographer. Not being able to shoot hand-held in typical light without adding professional studio lights kind of sucks for an all-around product, and being without live view today is not really acceptable if you want to reach out to the masses. This will change with CMOS. The primitive auto focus could be a remaining factor.

Anyway so far there's not been a suitable product and no interest to sell in larger volumes and thus prices must be kept very high. I don't think the MF companies have the financial capacity and will to change this overnight, and the whole dealer structure is not designed for high sales numbers (or low prices), but CMOS cameras could be the start of making a camera that's attractive for the average photographer and opening up the possibility for mass sales, so hopefully we would see a shift towards lower prices and higher sales in the future.
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Vladimirovich

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Re: MF CMOS -- now it gets interesting
« Reply #84 on: January 22, 2014, 03:20:00 am »

but CMOS cameras could be the start of making a camera that's attractive for the average photographer
there is always Pentax Ricoh for masses
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Theodoros

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Re: MF CMOS -- now it gets interesting
« Reply #85 on: January 22, 2014, 03:35:46 am »

I think one can now reasonably expect an announcement of the H5D-40C, as higher-ISO replacement for the H5D-40, as the H5D40 has been the microlensed Hi-ISO camera in the Hassy range.

The H5D-40C might be even faster by being microlensed, even if the H5D-50C is not.

My (unconfirmed) info is that the new H5D-50C sensor is 36.7 x 49.1mm.

I expect a trickle of sensor announcements between now and Photokina, as Sony, Truesense, and Sony jockey for position. There will probably also be good deals on the current models as Hassy, Phase, Leica/Sinar and Pentax raise cash to commission production runs of their chosen sensors.

It will be interesting to see whether the CCD sensors are deprecated in new model ranges, or will coexist - at some point the MF guys should run out of the energy needed to tune every possible sensor/camera/lens combo, and should concentrate on just a few models.

Edmund


1.Wouldn't a 44x33 Cmos sensor cost the same despite its Mp count as long as the size is the same?
2.Do you think that it is reasonable for Sony to design a sensor that wouldn't be an "expanded image area" version of an existing one? (especially if one considers the possible production volume)
3.36,7x49.1 doesn't much with any current Sony sensor for pixel density, it's close to the 24mp one, but doesn't much, it does much exactly to the 36mp sensor if expanded to 33x44…

I am not saying that this is what is the case, I'm only considering what makes sense and how existing technology can be applied to an MF product. What I find more possible, (it does fit well with current situation) is that a current high production FF sensor has been chosen (the 36mp one which is used in D800E and A-7R) which has been designed having the absence of AA filter in mind, that this sensor will make a good base for an entry level MF camera of 33x44 image area and that would provide a considerable price drop of the product with respect to H5D-40 and then, the same sensor can be expanded further in size to even larger image areas in size, (36x48 or even MF-ff) for higher Cmos versions. I don't think that MP count has anything to do with market positioning anymore (image area does).
Another thing to consider, is that the angle that photon rays "hit" the sensor is very similar for FF DSLRs and MF (due to the larger distance from mount on MF cameras) which permits common pixel density designs to be used on both formats by only altering the size of the image area. Further more, MF makers do need some extra sales to secure survival and price is an important factor in achieving that. Another thing to consider, is that the use of Cmos sensors that behave as they are expected in a "common" DSLR, will reduce the "fear of use" for some customers and can be used to "bridge" the gap that DSLRs now have with respect to MF… In other words, I expect CCD MF to continue its "ultimate quality" status, Cmos MF to play the part of the "larger DSLR" which is more friendly to some people than current MF and FF DSLRs to play the part of "entry level to serious photography".
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torger

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Re: MF CMOS -- now it gets interesting
« Reply #86 on: January 22, 2014, 03:44:10 am »

My guesses so far of the new Hasselblad camera:

- Sensor from Sony, similar technology as D800 / A7R but with other color filters
- 44x33 sensor size, because 50 megapixels and previous Sony sensors would match well with that
- Slightly cheaper than H5D-50, due to the smaller sensor size and attempt to go to a slightly wider market
- No live view in the back, only in tethered mode, indicated in the press release, probably to save development time
- Worse color cast than any current CCD, ie not very useful for wide angle tech cams, as this is typical for CMOS sensors
- CFA array designed for best color at base ISO, and thus better color than a D800 but a little bit worse high ISO
- Color just as good as current CCDs, but still not exactly the same so there will be a matter of taste which one is better
- ISO6400 max ISO, which still provides okay quality, ie there will be no "forensic/surveillance" ultra high ISO mode as DSLRs often have
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Theodoros

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Re: MF CMOS -- now it gets interesting
« Reply #87 on: January 22, 2014, 03:44:42 am »

there is always Pentax Ricoh for masses
Pentax 645 can't be considered to behave as a larger area DSLR… it behaves more like "traditional MF" IQ wise (better colour, more contrasty curve, DR tuned for dark areas than HL "protection" etc), it's not a matter of pricing, it's a matter of "image character".
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Theodoros

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Re: MF CMOS -- now it gets interesting
« Reply #88 on: January 22, 2014, 03:52:50 am »

My guesses so far of the new Hasselblad camera:

- Sensor from Sony, similar technology as D800 / A7R but with other color filters
- 44x33 sensor size, because 50 megapixels and previous Sony sensors would match well with that
- Slightly cheaper than H5D-50, due to the smaller sensor size and attempt to go to a slightly wider market
- No live view in the back, only in tethered mode, indicated in the press release, probably to save development time
- Worse color cast than any current CCD, ie not very useful for wide angle tech cams, as this is typical for CMOS sensors
- CFA array designed for best color at base ISO, and thus better color than a D800 but a little bit worse high ISO
- Color just as good as current CCDs, but still not exactly the same so there will be a matter of taste which one is better
- ISO6400 max ISO, which still provides okay quality, ie there will be no "forensic/surveillance" ultra high ISO mode as DSLRs often have
It's not far from my guess (neither your other posts are), only that I think pricing will be below H5D-40, I believe that Cmos in MF will be used with a "dual role" in mind… 1. To be more "user friendly for DSLR users, 2. To add prestige (by being priced lower) to the CCD designs.
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hjulenissen

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Re: MF CMOS -- now it gets interesting
« Reply #89 on: January 22, 2014, 04:14:52 am »

Further more, MF makers do need some extra sales to secure survival and price is an important factor in achieving that.
I don't think it works like that. I guess that investors:
1. Generally want a healthy return on their investment,
2. They want to be confident that this will be the case in the future
3. They want other prospective investors to believe that investing in their stock is a good idea

Increasing sales through price reduction, without decreasing the manufacture costs may or may not be the right path. As an engineer, I would assume that the most important (and difficult) goal is to increase the margin per product sold (reduce cost and/or increase selling-price) vs the total number of units sold. Selling a few units at very high margins is ok. Selling a load of units at lower margins can also be ok.

-h
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torger

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Re: MF CMOS -- now it gets interesting
« Reply #90 on: January 22, 2014, 04:35:04 am »

Increasing sales through price reduction, without decreasing the manufacture costs may or may not be the right path. As an engineer, I would assume that the most important (and difficult) goal is to increase the margin per product sold (reduce cost and/or increase selling-price) vs the total number of units sold. Selling a few units at very high margins is ok. Selling a load of units at lower margins can also be ok.

Compared to any consumer camera the current MF products are so narrow in their use case that they only attract pro users which work in these narrow use cases. (An exception is landscape photography amateurs on tech cameras, which I think MF companies should focus on more, but that does not seem to happen.)

This has created a dealer-centric sales model, low in bandwidth and high in overhead. What is needed for mass market is a product that works similar to any other camera out there and does not require a trained salesperson to teach you to see the advantages. A product that can be sold in a webshop and does not require much pre sales training or post sales support. Maybe maybe the CMOS sensor can be the start of a move towards that.
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uaiomex

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Re: MF CMOS -- now it gets interesting
« Reply #91 on: January 22, 2014, 05:25:08 am »

Yeah, right. Too bad they didn't survive the cmos tsunami.
Eduardo

you are wrong - there were cheap (down to $500 in ~2006) entry level dSLRs on CCD sensors (like 6mp from Sony, 10mp from Sony)...
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Theodoros

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Re: MF CMOS -- now it gets interesting
« Reply #92 on: January 22, 2014, 05:34:29 am »

Compared to any consumer camera the current MF products are so narrow in their use case that they only attract pro users which work in these narrow use cases. (An exception is landscape photography amateurs on tech cameras, which I think MF companies should focus on more, but that does not seem to happen.)

This has created a dealer-centric sales model, low in bandwidth and high in overhead. What is needed for mass market is a product that works similar to any other camera out there and does not require a trained salesperson to teach you to see the advantages. A product that can be sold in a webshop and does not require much pre sales training or post sales support. Maybe maybe the CMOS sensor can be the start of a move towards that.
+1…. Additionally, no one ever mentioned "price reduction" as a policy, introduction of cheaper product is different. Besides, a cheaper product increases margins for the higher ones, since in MF there is body, electronics and accessories compatibility and the base of customers is widened for these accessories and lenses.
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design_freak

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Re: MF CMOS -- now it gets interesting
« Reply #93 on: January 22, 2014, 06:25:19 am »

I shouldn't have mentioned Lunar in this thread as it will now get derailed by all the usual comments.

I'm sure you have better sources within Hasselblad than I have so I'm going to dis-engage from any further Lunar Stellar discussions here.

Too bad  ;D
I wanted to ask you, what version of color you have? ( http://www.hasselblad-lunar.com/collection.aspx )
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DF

JoeKitchen

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Re: MF CMOS -- now it gets interesting
« Reply #94 on: January 22, 2014, 07:04:53 am »

What the hell!  Why cant they make a full frame 50 MP CCD with the long exposure capabilities of the IQ260? 

Be a lot easier with lens cast. 
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torger

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Re: MF CMOS -- now it gets interesting
« Reply #95 on: January 22, 2014, 07:35:08 am »

What the hell!  Why cant they make a full frame 50 MP CCD with the long exposure capabilities of the IQ260? 

Be a lot easier with lens cast. 

I've got the feeling that technical cameras just isn't a priority in the business strategy meetings :-\. Phase One is about their 645DF+, Hasseblad is about their H camera. Like there's 100 units MF SLRs sold for each tech camera. I don't know what the actual numbers are, but my guess is that both Hasselblad and Phase One should care more about tech cameras if they had a proper look at the interest. However then they only get to sell a back, rather than both back and camera plus lenses, I guess there's significant money in that too. So they rather want you to shoot landscapes/interiors/architecture with an H camera than an Alpa/Cambo/Arca/Linhof/Sinar.
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tsjanik

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Paul2660

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Re: MF CMOS -- now it gets interesting
« Reply #97 on: January 22, 2014, 08:59:42 am »

You bet, Phase One will have a followup.  and more than likely the same brand of sensor or maybe Dalsa has figured out how to make CMOS in this size. 

Either way, the IQ260 possibly  took a considerable hit.  It may turn out to the be the shortest lived back on the market, as if you have a Sony chip in the this upcoming Phase, then it's fair to expect:

1.  Amazing DR at base iso, same as the Sony 36MP chip in the current A7r and older chip in Nikon D800 family.  This should produce impressive files at base iso, (50 I assume) with a 2.75 range or close as this is what you can get with the Nikon. 

2.  Longer exposures at your whim, no need for special iso 140

3.  Possible end of need for sensor plus as again based on current Sony modern high MP chips, you should see iso 1600, easily and possibly 3200 at full resolution.

4.  Color issues, CMOS to CCD, maybe, but I don't see that much difference in my work between CMOS  (Nikon) and Phase 260

5.  50MP vs 60MP not that great a gap IMO  especially if you get Live view on the already excellent Phase One IQ LCD screen

Paul Caldwell


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lelouarn

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Re: MF CMOS -- now it gets interesting
« Reply #98 on: January 22, 2014, 09:07:29 am »

I am wondering what the Hassi announcement about Live-View in Phocus only means. I suspect that the back's electronics needs quite an upgrade to be able to process the CMOS live-view data and display it in the LCD. It seems Hassi has not done all the upgrade (yet ?). It's also possible that LV on such a large number of pixels is very power hungry, and is not available on the back for that reason.

So an interesting question is: has Phase upgraded it's electronics to display LV on the back, or not. That would make a huge difference for tech cam users...
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Vladimirovich

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Re: MF CMOS -- now it gets interesting
« Reply #99 on: January 22, 2014, 09:11:15 am »

Pentax 645 can't be considered to behave as a larger area DSLR… it behaves more like "traditional MF" IQ wise (better colour, more contrasty curve, DR tuned for dark areas than HL "protection" etc), it's not a matter of pricing, it's a matter of "image character".
it is not about the image that camera makes, it is about its handling and Pentax handles more like dSLR @ consumer level pricing
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