MF CMOS -- now it gets interesting

[Theodoros]

I've got the feeling that technical cameras just isn't a priority in the business strategy meetings . Phase One is about their 645DF+, Hasseblad is about their H camera. Like there's 100 units MF SLRs sold for each tech camera. I don't know what the actual numbers are, but my guess is that both Hasselblad and Phase One should care more about tech cameras if they had a proper look at the interest. However then they only get to sell a back, rather than both back and camera plus lenses, I guess there's significant money in that too. So they rather want you to shoot landscapes/interiors/architecture with an H camera than an Alpa/Cambo/Arca/Linhof/Sinar.

Well said, now with Sinar back in the business of both tech/view cameras and MFDBs (under Leica's financial strength) and with the "S" being a direct competitor of the DF&H alike as complete DSLRs, it looks like they'll have to look back to basics and support independent MFDBs like they did when Imacon was around… By the way, the existence of Leica S is one more reason why I believe that H-Cmos is going to be priced competitively.

[Theodoros]

The plot thickens:

http://photorumors.com/2014/01/21/phaseone-iq250-coming-soon-with-a-new-50mp-cmos-sensor/

Now we know that the sensor is not dedicated to Hasselblad… I wonder when the CREDO 50mp Cmos will be announced. Next thing (more important) we'll soon find out, is sensor size… It looks like (my fault in counting) D800/A7R 36mp sensor adds up to more than 60mp if grown to 44x33 size, so I guess it will either be the 24mp of D600/A7 grown to (about) 37x49 (as Eronald said) or …a new sensor dedicated to MF?

[torger]

5.  50MP vs 60MP not that great a gap IMO  especially if you get Live view on the already excellent Phase One IQ LCD screen

But 44x33mm vs 54x41mm is, especially if you have interest in wide angle photography. My guess is that this first MF CMOS sensor both from Hassy and Phase One will not be fullframe (ie 44x33 rather than 54x41). Hopefully the IQ250 press release will give us a little bit more details than the one from Hasselblad.

[eronald]

But 44x33mm vs 54x41mm is, especially if you have interest in wide angle photography. My guess is that this first MF CMOS sensor both from Hassy and Phase One will not be fullframe (ie 44x33 rather than 54x41). Hopefully the IQ250 press release will give us a little bit more details than the one from Hasselblad.

I would bet the Hassy one is 37x49

Anyway, the first batch of CMOS cameras will have all the spring novelty and all the spring bugs ...

Edmund

[free1000]

Interesting development and exciting for future view camera usage if/when the live view capabilities emerge.  My Ebony is champing at the bit with the expectation.

I'd expect that as a new product category this will command an initial price premium. Why sell cheap when there are early adopters whose desires and egos crave the most expensive luxuries?

Its also great for MF companies who will be able to sell both a CCD and a CMOS back to the photographers who wish access to both capabilities.  Just like carrying around two different types of film stock.  :-)

[torger]

I would bet the Hassy one is 37x49

I hope you're right and I'm wrong. 49x37 is however a size that was only used by Kodak, seems odd that they'd match up the same. On the other hand maybe they've had enough control over sensor design so they could replicate the size, 49x37 is well-represented in the Hassy line so sure if they could maybe they would.

For Phase One it would be less logical with this size though, they've removed the size from their product range, they're all about 44x33 for "entry level" and 54x41 for high end. But maybe the IQ250 will actually have a different sensor.

(I'm a big fan of the 49x37/48x36mm size; from a tech cam perspective I prefer it over the 54x41mm size as I think it's a perfect balance for the common 90mm image circle size, 50megapixels/6um pixels is also pretty much perfect balance, which today is only represented by Hassy backs and Sinar's tethered-only)

[Theodoros]

I would bet the Hassy one is 37x49

Anyway, the first batch of CMOS cameras will have all the spring novelty and all the spring bugs ...

Edmund

Edmund, P1 just announced their 50mp back using the same Sony sensor… I guess is wrong to think that the sensor has to be exactly equal to H5D-50's CCD size, since it's not dedicated to Hasselblad. It may be (since maths using Sony's 24mp sensor comes close), but P1 don't use Kodak's 50mp sensor… It may even be a dedicated to MF new one after all at any size. I just find it hard to believe that Sony would use wafers to match exactly Kodak's unique and "strange" dimensions (which is what I have in my MFDB).

[torger]

Why sell cheap when there are early adopters whose desires and egos crave the most expensive luxuries?

They could sell "cheap" to 1) signal that CCD is still the king in terms of image quality and 2) to open up for a new wider market which was not possible to reach without high ISO performance (which they now get), eg event/wedding photography. Having a more flexible product technically makes it possible for a different business model.

It depends a bit if they want to attract new customers which don't own MF today, or if they want to sell yet another back to existing MF users.

If they want to go this way though I'm quite sure the sensor will be of "entry level" size, ie 44x33mm or similar. Can't wait to see the full specs of this

[Theodoros]

I hope you're right and I'm wrong. 49x37 is however a size that was only used by Kodak, seems odd that they'd match up the same. On the other hand maybe they've had enough control over sensor design so they could replicate the size, 49x37 is well-represented in the Hassy line so sure if they could maybe they would.

For Phase One it would be less logical with this size though, they've removed the size from their product range, they're all about 44x33 for "entry level" and 54x41 for high end. But maybe the IQ250 will actually have a different sensor.

(I'm a big fan of the 49x37/48x36mm size; from a tech cam perspective I prefer it over the 54x41mm size as I think it's a perfect balance for the common 90mm image circle size, 50megapixels/6um pixels is also pretty much perfect balance, which today is only represented by Hassy backs and Sinar's tethered-only)

It surely is difficult to predict sensor size, if the sensor is based on an existing one, the only alternative is the 24mp one (the 36mp one comes up to 61mp for 33x44 size - my mistake) for dimensions as Eronald says… The only other alternative is a completely new sensor which can (of course) be any size... Never the less, sensor size (and product pricing) is important to judge Cmos positioning in the MF market… Lets not forget that P1 is introducing the product in their 2xx line (thinking in Eronald's terms but looking from P1 POV), the other sensors in that line are FF only… Puzzling.

[Theodoros]

They could sell "cheap" to 1) signal that CCD is still the king in terms of image quality and 2) to open up for a new wider market which was not possible to reach without high ISO performance (which they now get), eg event/wedding photography. Having a more flexible product technically makes it possible for a different business model.

It depends a bit if they want to attract new customers which don't own MF today, or if they want to sell yet another back to existing MF users.

If they want to go this way though I'm quite sure the sensor will be of "entry level" size, ie 44x33mm or similar. Can't wait to see the full specs of this

My thoughts too (once more), but maybe we are thinking on past knowledge… There is no guaranty that if a bigger sensor is used, it will have to be an expensive (with respect to current CCD) back …it may well be that Sony can price things better at larger sizes. Never the less, since P1 has entered the back in their P2xx series, it will be their basic product in the line by name! Lets not forget that Leaf's version, will be considerably better priced than P2xx series by definition.

[eronald]

Edmund, P1 just announced their 50mp back using the same Sony sensor… I guess is wrong to think that the sensor has to be exactly equal to H5D-50's CCD size, since it's not dedicated to Hasselblad. It may be (since maths using Sony's 24mp sensor comes close), but P1 don't use Kodak's 50mp sensor… It may even be a dedicated to MF new one after all at any size. I just find it hard to believe that Sony would use wafers to match exactly Kodak's unique and "strange" dimensions (which is what I have in my MFDB).

I don't know who has got a sensor from who. My impression is there may be several designs floating around and some of us got info on some, other on others.

Edmund

[Theodoros]

I don't know who has got a sensor from who. My impression is there may be several designs floating around and some of us got info on some, other on others.

Edmund

Both web posts (for H and P1) claim a Sony sensor of 50mp Edmund…

[eronald]

Both web posts (for H and P1) claim a Sony sensor of 50mp Edmund…

Quite a few posters on this forum are industry insiders ...

The interesting question is Phase One's much touted new camera. It's easy to announce a new back, all it takes is to say you will be able to buy a sensor from somebody, but for people to believe in the announcement of a new body you need to show prototypes etc ... unless they plan another warmed over serving of the oven-burnt Mamiya 645 with a pickled cucumber stuck on top.


Edmund

[Theodoros]

Quite a few posters on this forum are industry insiders ...

The interesting question is Phase One's new camera. It's easy to announce a new back, all it takes is to say you will be able to buy a sensor, but for people to believe in the announcement of a new body you need to show prototypes etc ...

Edmund

  Yeah… I've been accused to be one, a Leica guy!  It's interesting to see Leica's reaction to P1 and Hassy by the way!

[eronald]

  Yeah… I've been accused to be one, a Leica guy!  It's interesting to see Leica's reaction to P1 and Hassy by the way!

What is Leica's reaction?

Edmund

[Theodoros]

What is Leica's reaction?

Edmund

How the f@@k should I know? 

[eronald]

How the f@@k should I know? 

I heard Leica will also be adopting the (one of?) new sensor.
Probably at this point the whole MF industry will move to CMOS; I just hope they get the CFAs right.

Edmund

[Christoph C. Feldhaim]

Its will be interesting how the whole CCD vs CMOS color rendition discussion will develop,
if they decide to use the same CFAs for the CMOS sensors than they used for their CCDs.

[Bart_van_der_Wolf]

I heard Leica will also be adopting the (one of?) new sensor.
Probably at this point the whole MF industry will move to CMOS; I just hope they get the CFAs right.

Indeed, the difference with 35mm Full Frame will be in the CFAs + profiling, and the possibility to use much slower/multiple non-destructive read-outs, if that boosts dynamic range further (it's already low in the 35mm case).

It will also be interesting to see whether micro-lenses will be used (for non-shift scenarios), or not. And there are more things that can be done when high frame rates are not as important, as they obviously are for tracking action with smaller cameras.

Cheers,
Bart

[Theodoros]

I heard Leica will also be adopting the (one of?) new sensor.
Probably at this point the whole MF industry will move to CMOS; I just hope they get the CFAs right.

Edmund

The only thing that I've posted on the matter Edmund, is that it makes sense for Leica/Sinar to "bridge" the gap between the two systems, by introducing an interchangeable back body (or use a platform of the past like C645 or Rollei which is fully compatible to the S via lens adapter) and re-introducing E-motion series of backs… Now, if these backs will be Cmos or CCD or a combination of both and since Sinar already has a series of (tethered only) studio backs that are all able to also do multishot, is a different matter that beats my knowledge, ….but, it would make perfect sense to use some (or only) Cmos sensors on them since they already have hi-end CCDs with good LV and MS capability for studio use.