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Author Topic: MF CMOS -- now it gets interesting  (Read 53083 times)

ndevlin

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sebastian_kubatz

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Re: MF CMOS -- now it gets interesting
« Reply #1 on: January 21, 2014, 08:50:17 am »

that sounds really interesting
where is PhaseOne now? please get in the game now
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Christoph C. Feldhaim

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Re: MF CMOS -- now it gets interesting
« Reply #2 on: January 21, 2014, 08:57:28 am »

The empire strikes back ...  :P

MrSmith

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Re: MF CMOS -- now it gets interesting
« Reply #3 on: January 21, 2014, 09:04:23 am »

be interesting to see what it comes out £$€'s wise.
either the same or similar to other 50mp backs or a huge price jump justified by live view that is usable like a canon and low noise 400asa and above•

•please dont tell me about sensor+ or current MFD live-view tech, it sucks.
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torger

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Re: MF CMOS -- now it gets interesting
« Reply #4 on: January 21, 2014, 09:10:18 am »

Very exciting! Although I've said that a 56x56mm CCD back would be cooler, I'm still excited by this. Glad it came from Hasselblad. I wonder if it's Sony technology in that CMOS, anyone who knows?
« Last Edit: January 21, 2014, 09:17:16 am by torger »
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torger

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Re: MF CMOS -- now it gets interesting
« Reply #5 on: January 21, 2014, 09:15:55 am »

either the same or similar to other 50mp backs or a huge price jump justified by live view that is usable like a canon and low noise 400asa and above

Between the lines one can read that live view won't be available on the back itself, but only in tethered mode. My guess is that they've modified as little as possible from the standard CCD version of the camera to make a fast (and cheap) introduction of the product. It will probably be a few iterations before the system make full use of the CMOS possibilities.

Pricing will be most interesting to see. My guess is that it would be something like 20% more expensive than the CCD version. For current Hasselblad users the extra functionality that this first CMOS camera provides (ie high ISO and longer exposures) won't be that important, as their current shooting style obviously is not dependent on it, so I'd be surprised if they try to charge a radically higher price.
« Last Edit: January 21, 2014, 09:23:09 am by torger »
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synn

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Re: MF CMOS -- now it gets interesting
« Reply #6 on: January 21, 2014, 09:24:20 am »

While it is interesting, this doesn't look like a value proposition at all. I'd be extremely surprised if they price it significantly cheaper than the CCD models.
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Paul2660

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Re: MF CMOS -- now it gets interesting
« Reply #7 on: January 21, 2014, 09:25:23 am »

The next new MF barn burner for sure!!

This does make one wonder what Phase will have at Photokina.

However the press release only states: prices and more info available in March as I read it.  I agree from reading what they posted live view seems through phocus which I believe would mean tethered at least during this version.  Also makes me wonder about USB3 support or some form of thunderbolt as I would think one of these would be needed.

Things are changing for sure. Curious who made the chip, Sony? if so it might put more realism into the 54MP 35mm chip that Sony supposedly has coming. I realize a MF chip is much different but some of the manufacturing fab may cross over.



Thanks for the info.
Paul Caldwell
« Last Edit: January 21, 2014, 09:39:18 am by Paul2660 »
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torger

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Re: MF CMOS -- now it gets interesting
« Reply #8 on: January 21, 2014, 09:34:59 am »

While it is interesting, this doesn't look like a value proposition at all. I'd be extremely surprised if they price it significantly cheaper than the CCD models.

I think it will be a bit more expensive, but not to an extreme amount.

What's perhaps more important is that they show that their MF development has not gone stale. All their current cameras use rather old sensors, while those are still good Hasselblad hasn't exactly looked vital in recent times, and the move with the small sensor cameras made them look a bit desperate. I think being first to bring this technology to the MF market sends a message that they're alive and well and that Phase One still has a competitor.

I'm also very curious about how the color rendition debates will unfold, H5D-50 vs H5D-50c :)

Another thing that I'm really interested in is that how the back will work on a technical camera, especially concerning color cast. My expectation is that it will have a lot worse color cast than a CCD sensor, to the point that even (weak) retrofocus lenses like Rodenstock 32mm is not usuable, but I'd love to be proven wrong. The live view performance will also be interesting, even if only available tethered to start with.
« Last Edit: January 21, 2014, 09:42:22 am by torger »
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Bart_van_der_Wolf

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Re: MF CMOS -- now it gets interesting
« Reply #9 on: January 21, 2014, 09:42:12 am »

I'm also very curious about how the color rendition debates will unfold, H5D-50 vs H5D-50c :)

I agree, it will demonstrate that there's no such thing as CCD colors ...
Photons don't care which technology records them, Bayer CFAs and profiles do matter.

Cheers,
Bart
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MarkoRepse

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Re: MF CMOS -- now it gets interesting
« Reply #10 on: January 21, 2014, 09:44:33 am »

Wow! March is soon and we will finally get an idea of how MF CMOS will behave and how it compares with CCD. Will it preserve the "look"? This holds promise of a very interesting year; if Hassy will have these out by March its not unreasonable to think Phase/Leaf might have something ready by/before Photokina. Great news!
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JoeKitchen

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Re: MF CMOS -- now it gets interesting
« Reply #11 on: January 21, 2014, 09:47:16 am »

First off, MF is a niche market with no economy of scale.  A CMOS MF camera will probably cost about the same as a CCD MF camera.  Not to mention you are still going to have to buy the H series lenses, which are not "Canon" prices.

Second, I do not see any specs of the sensor listed other than it being 645 size.  Will the sensor be 14-bit, or has Hassy made a huge advance in CMOS tech and created a 16-bit chip?  

My guess is that it will be 14-bit, which means you are going to have a trade off.  Stick with the CCDs, get better color but only be able to shoot at base ISO.  Or go with the CMOS, color is not as good and you can not push the images as much, but you can shoot faster in more varying lighting conditions.  (For me, the CCDs would be the clear choice, since I always use a tripod anyway.  But I can see the appeal of faster speeds for many.)

Another question to be asked is will the auto focus be better?  I think one of the advantages with shooting DSLRs handheld for fast on-the-fly work is the auto focus systems.  If this is addressed, I can see it being very successful.  If not, most of who look at this will probably be photographers who light everything perfectly anyway and prefer shooting at base.  
« Last Edit: January 21, 2014, 09:50:59 am by JoeKitchen »
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torger

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Re: MF CMOS -- now it gets interesting
« Reply #12 on: January 21, 2014, 09:52:34 am »

My guess is that it will be 14-bit, which means you are going to have a trade off.

Sony's 14 bit CMOS sensor already have more dynamic range than Dalsa's "16 bit". Noise is noise. What can make up a color rendition quality difference is the bayer color filters, some design them to perform better at high ISO while sacrificing some color performance at base ISO (Nikon seems to do that), while MF sensors generally have a design for best color rendition at base ISO.

I find it highly likely that the MF CMOS sensor Hasselblad is going to use will have a bayer CFA designed for best color at base ISO, even if it sacrifices a little bit of high ISO performance, so I would not be too worried about color rendition. But we'll see.

(I don't think auto focus will be better. My guess is that it's the exact same camera with as little changes as possible just to get the CMOS sensor in there. About the difference between CFV-39 and CFV-50, ie nothing except the sensor.)
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JoeKitchen

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Re: MF CMOS -- now it gets interesting
« Reply #13 on: January 21, 2014, 09:58:30 am »

Sony's 14 bit CMOS sensor already have more dynamic range than Dalsa's "16 bit". Noise is noise. What can make up a color rendition quality difference is the bayer color filters, some design them to perform better at high ISO while sacrificing some color performance at base ISO (Nikon seems to do that), while MF sensors generally have a design for best color rendition at base ISO.

I find it highly likely that the MF CMOS sensor Hasselblad is going to use will have a bayer CFA designed for best color at base ISO, even if it sacrifices a little bit of high ISO performance, so I would not be too worried about color rendition. But we'll see.

(I don't think auto focus will be better. My guess is that it's the exact same camera with as little changes as possible just to get the CMOS sensor in there. About the difference between CFV-39 and CFV-50, ie nothing except the sensor.)

Than I really do not see an advantage.  Shooting faster would be pretty nice for a large amount of photographers. 
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torger

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Re: MF CMOS -- now it gets interesting
« Reply #14 on: January 21, 2014, 10:04:10 am »

What I hope CMOS will bring in the long term is high quality Live View for field work on a tech camera. This won't be it, but it will be a starting point to see what the technology is capable of. The today less popular view camera could be revitalized when you no longer need a sliding back and can view and focus live directly on the back, I'd love to have such a back on my Linhof Techno. Even if you always shoot at base ISO such a back must have a sensor with good high ISO performance (likely) for proper live view refresh rate at low light and handle heavy vignetting of tech cam lenses, and it must also have low color cast (which I think is unlikely, unfortunately).
« Last Edit: January 21, 2014, 10:08:27 am by torger »
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Ken R

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Re: MF CMOS -- now it gets interesting
« Reply #15 on: January 21, 2014, 10:07:21 am »

This is getting reeeeally interesting. PhaseOne has hinted that they will have a new camera platform out this year most likely. The lens mount and back mounts should be basically the same so no worries about backwards compatibility. Phase One of course has been continuously improving their CCD sensors and everything around it so they have not being resting on their laurels.

Awesome that Hasselblad is introducing new medium format sensor technology, still, specs are pending and so are image quality and performance tests of course. Nevertheless it should be an interesting few months for sure.
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JV

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Re: MF CMOS -- now it gets interesting
« Reply #16 on: January 21, 2014, 10:19:31 am »

Interesting also that it is only being offered as 50MP...

I wonder whether Hasselblad will try to position itself between Leica/Pentax (around 40MP) and Phase One (60-80 MP)

CMOS should give better ISO performance but as mentioned above MF cameras are lagging behind in usability as well.  That will eventually need to be addressed as well
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hubell

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Re: MF CMOS -- now it gets interesting
« Reply #17 on: January 21, 2014, 10:28:31 am »

Also interesting is the following from the Press Release on the 645 CMOS sensor:
"It will be the first of a number of medium format capture innovations we have planned for the coming months."
 

torger

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Re: MF CMOS -- now it gets interesting
« Reply #18 on: January 21, 2014, 10:39:35 am »

I'm assuming this new CMOS sensor would be ~49x37mm sensor with 6um pixels, just like the H5D-50, ie not a full-frame 645 sensor like in the H5D-60. It could be the case that the current CMOS manufacturing process won't allow for larger sizes than that.
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bpepz

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Re: MF CMOS -- now it gets interesting
« Reply #19 on: January 21, 2014, 10:41:10 am »


Another question to be asked is will the auto focus be better?  I think one of the advantages with shooting DSLRs handheld for fast on-the-fly work is the auto focus systems.  If this is addressed, I can see it being very successful.  If not, most of who look at this will probably be photographers who light everything perfectly anyway and prefer shooting at base.  

I am pretty sure AF speed is not tied to CCD or CMOS. If they are using an H5D body, it will probably have the same AF as the H5D. Just sticking a CMOS behind a camera does not magically make the AF better or worse, unless they are doing something really radical like on sensor phase detection, which I highly doubt.
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