Franke & Heidecke became insovent

[hubell]

Give it a rest, guy,

Leaf communicates with their dealer/distributors and informs them what to communicate with the public (end user). When there is a need to update their website, Leaf will do so.

David

I understand. You like the Emperor Nero approach to corporate communication when your company's ass is on the line.

[Leonardo Barreto]

"Your website looks cool"

  Thank you  


    but the stuff that comes out of your mouth here is pure dribble.

Nothing comes out of my mouth, I am typing...    Then again I m not saying that there will only be H-and AFD systems left. I said --IF-- it happens, how the MF would be. It is a conditional and we are discussing resent events (like Franke & Heidecke insolvency) and how this affects us.

I spent a large amount of money on my AFD system and PhaseOne back --that for some may be donuts money, but not for me-- and I have a vested interest in the way the entire MF world is evolving. It is part of our work as photographers to know our equipment and to be able to somehow predict the market.

All of this may be dribble for you, but others have and will continue to put their hard earned money -harder now even than yesterday- in one or another brand that we are discussing here, so you should ask them if this is dribble or not.

 

[Gigi]

Ya know, Leanardo,

Just like csp and Snook, you need to listen more and talk less. Your website looks cool, but the stuff that comes out of your mouth here is pure dribble.

Not unlike the dribble with Michael's veiled innuendo that only Phase and Hasselblad will survive in this market.

David

I'm a big fan of the Hy6, and its family, but such is not.... just not good manners.
Please reconsider the language.

[csp]

Just like csp and Snook, you need to listen more and talk less. Your website looks cool, but the stuff that comes out of your mouth here is pure dribble.

Not unlike the dribble with Michael's veiled innuendo that only Phase and Hasselblad will survive in this market.

The medium format community sure as hell better be cheering Leaf on. Hanging a Phase Back on a Mamiya body will always be a medicore solution, at best. And Hasselblad can't even build a camera body that communicates with the battery grip, so what's with that?

The only viable solution is the AFi.

David

it would be best you follow your own advise and watch out what cameras and backs are really used by professionals and not what is hyped on the web with the help of  smart reps and dealers.
as faster as the digital mf market gets cleared the better it is for us photographers.

[bdp]

it would be best you follow your own advise and watch out what cameras and backs are really used by professionals and not what is hyped on the web with the help of  smart reps and dealers.
as faster as the digital mf market gets cleared the better it is for us photographers.

How does less competition in the market help us? Is that what you mean by 'cleared'?

[csp]

How does less competition in the market help us? Is that what you mean by 'cleared'?

yes, to many brands with to less differences.  the reason why so many film mf brands could live was only because of an huge amateur market, this has totally changed with digital mf.
what happens now is only  that the offers get adjusted to the market demand. even without the economy crisis i'm sure this would have happened sooner or later,  it was long overdue.
i want see more development with digital mf, better integration of back and camera,  better performance, innovative features...  but this can only become
real  if the companies have a solid finical base and this needs high sales numbers as in every other market.

[Leonardo Barreto]

Thank you Geoffrey, difficult to take offense from someone that chooses to remain anonymous, and use a camera brand as name.

I'm a big fan of the Hy6, and its family, but such is not.... just not good manners.
Please reconsider the language.

[laughingbear]

Hi Leonardo,

I often wondered about the dynamics of this market, totalling in something like 6.000 backs give or take per annum, this is a very narrow segment, and very difficult for players to stand out against the rest of the bunch in deed.

I always questioned the prices those items have tagged on, then again, I have no insights in the internal cost basis calculation of a digital back or MF camera per se, I just wondered whether these prices reflect some form of overpricing in general, not sure though as I said. My gut tells me more than likely they are creaming it, but I stand to be corrected.

I do not believe that the current events will help, in opposite, the reduction to lesser players will monopolise this small segment even more so and a healthy competition would be lost, not good news!

Best wishes
Oceanviewstudio

[Leonardo Barreto]

I never said that Franke & Heidecke insolvency is good news, or that I am happy to hear it. What I say is that I personally think that the concept behind the Hy6 could have been more in tune with what the market needed and we probably would not be reading this news. If you introduce a new system in a mature tight market you have to come up with something that would give the user an undeniable edge over whatever his competitor bring to a job. Mamiya came up with a back that sold for a fraction of what the leading digital backs cost (ZD) and almost brought down the entire Mamiya brand. Photographers prefer to spend more but get a good quality product. The market was unforgiving for them even then. Contax offered some of the best optics in MF and a very mature and feature full 645 camera, but that didn't help them ether.  

But as some have said, maybe the AFi-Hy6 will continue to be manufactured by Leaf America, and the design of the system had nothing to do with F&H insolvency.

Hi Leonardo,

I often wondered about the dynamics of this market, totalling in something like 6.000 backs give or take per annum, this is a very narrow segment, and very difficult for players to stand out against the rest of the bunch in deed.

I always questioned the prices those items have tagged on, then again, I have no insights in the internal cost basis calculation of a digital back or MF camera per se, I just wondered whether these prices reflect some form of overpricing in general, not sure though as I said. My gut tells me more than likely they are creaming it, but I stand to be corrected.

I do not believe that the current events will help, in opposite, the reduction to lesser players will monopolise this small segment even more so and a healthy competition would be lost, not good news!

Best wishes
Oceanviewstudio

[Carsten W]

If you introduce a new system in a mature tight market...

Mature??? dim, low-res screens which cannot be seen in normal daylight? Lenses which need to be tested and rejected before a good copy is found? Sensors with green stripes? Two batteries in one camera+back? Shooting rates like molasses? LCC files required for decent colour across the image? Incomplete lens lineups with missing leaf shutter lenses, tilt+shift lenses, you name it? Tolerance failures in tech cameras which make focusing impossible? Companies which promise openness and then go closed?

This whole market is just waiting for a single, decent, moral company to come in and wipe up.

[mcfoto]

good price
 http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewI...alenotsupported

[Leonardo Barreto]

Carstenw: I agree. I guess we will have to wait for that company to come...

Mature??? dim, low-res screens which cannot be seen in normal daylight? Lenses which need to be tested and rejected before a good copy is found? Sensors with green stripes? Two batteries in one camera+back? Shooting rates like molasses? LCC files required for decent colour across the image? Incomplete lens lineups with missing leaf shutter lenses, tilt+shift lenses, you name it? Tolerance failures in tech cameras which make focusing impossible? Companies which promise openness and then go closed?

This whole market is just waiting for a single, decent, moral company to come in and wipe up.

[EricWHiss]

Mature??? dim, low-res screens which cannot be seen in normal daylight? Lenses which need to be tested and rejected before a good copy is found? Sensors with green stripes? Two batteries in one camera+back? Shooting rates like molasses? LCC files required for decent colour across the image? Incomplete lens lineups with missing leaf shutter lenses, tilt+shift lenses, you name it? Tolerance failures in tech cameras which make focusing impossible? Companies which promise openness and then go closed?

This whole market is just waiting for a single, decent, moral company to come in and wipe up.

Carsten are you referring to Mamiya with the above?    

[bradleygibson]

Mature??? dim, low-res screens which cannot be seen in normal daylight? Lenses which need to be tested and rejected before a good copy is found? Sensors with green stripes? Two batteries in one camera+back? Shooting rates like molasses? LCC files required for decent colour across the image? Incomplete lens lineups with missing leaf shutter lenses, tilt+shift lenses, you name it? Tolerance failures in tech cameras which make focusing impossible? Companies which promise openness and then go closed?

This whole market is just waiting for a single, decent, moral company to come in and wipe up.

+1 to that Carsten.  I've just spent the last two years and switched systems 5 times looking for a tool that would just disappear in my hands.  Couldn't have said it better myself.

Eric, these issues are pervasive--some more than others, of course, but in general, it's a problem across the board, IMHO.  I often tell photographers considering following in my footsteps to be careful before coming up from small format--with the notable exception of the viewfinders and perhaps modularity, absolutely everything in MF is worse then what they're used to, except for the image quality.

At first they're very surprised to hear that statement, but when we start talking details (cost, shot speed, availability, native ISO, weight, size, batteries, start-up time, "high" ISO image quality, widest wides, longest teles, image stabilizer, "car dealership" sales model, AF performance, shutter lag, hand-holdability, etc. etc. etc., they quickly come to see what I mean).

That being said, I also point out that despite all this, I haven't gone back yet, and that's because once you accept and adapt to all those limitations, it's difficult to argue with the results.  

-Brad

[EricWHiss]

Brad,
Maybe, but I must have just been lucky since I really haven't had any problems with my Rollei 6008 AF or any of the dozen or so lenses I have amassed.   I bought everything used and yeah I had one curtagon lens with a sticky aperture - but it had sat for 15 years literally unused, and one lens with a spot of fungus that cleaned right up.  I had trouble with a focus screen being warped but that was an aftermarket screen as it turned out.   My Rollei has essentially performed better than I could have ever hoped.  I've tried quite a lot of lenses and really only one failed to impress me - the 50mm f/2.8 and from what I understand that might not be due to variability in manufacturing.     I haven't shot with 5 medium format systems... just a contax for a day, and the mamiya RZ for a couple days  - lots of leica, canon and nikon stuff.  None of it has been as reliable as the Rollei and I do take my rollei out of the studio.  It's been rained on, out in the desert and on the beach.  I don't just like it, I love it.  

I understand there were some probs with the Hy6/AFi and some with the backs.   But look at it like this - the Mamiya AFD has been through how many design iterations and its still got issues?  Come on!  The Contax? It was the end of the development - better be perfect but is it?  We all know the H3 is their third generation. What didn't make it into 3rd gen - isn't going to be there and if your camera depends on DAC to make the lenses work you can't use your favorite RAW converter.    My 6008 AF was the end of the development cycle so I guess it makes sense that it's pretty solid.   But actually considering all this - the Hy6/AFi on its first go - not too bad, huh?     Don't give up on it!   This can be the platform....  even up to 6x6 too.
Eric

[paratom]

I am still surprized about the discussion who would manufacture the Hy6 in the future based on a missunderstanding what "insolvent" means in Germany.
IMO as long as we dont hear different I think the biggest chance is that F&H would continue to produce the Hy6.
Has anybody any report or hint that the F&H facility is closed? I would be really interested if there is such information or if the whole discussion is based on speculation.

[Carsten W]

dim, low-res screens which cannot be seen in normal daylight? Lenses which need to be tested and rejected before a good copy is found? Sensors with green stripes? Two batteries in one camera+back? Shooting rates like molasses? LCC files required for decent colour across the image? Incomplete lens lineups with missing leaf shutter lenses, tilt+shift lenses, you name it? Tolerance failures in tech cameras which make focusing impossible? Companies which promise openness and then go closed?

Carsten are you referring to Mamiya with the above?

Various.

Dim sensors, cannot be seen in daylight: all, to my knowledge.

Low-res sensors: all except perhaps high-end Leaf and Sinar E65.

Lenses which need to be tested to find a good copy: Mamiya, Phase.

Sensors with green stripes: Mamiya ZD.

Two batteries: all except Hasselblad, I believe.

Shooting rate slower than molasses: all.

LCC files: several, although here I am less sure. All tech cameras, almost certainly.

Incomplete lens lineups: almost all, in various ways. Rollei doesn't have a really wide lens for the Hy6, Mamiya has some iffy non-D lenses, Hasselblad has poor back support for the V system, leaving it without true wides, Mamiya/Phase don't have leaf shutter lenses, only Phase has a T/S lens, but it has corners softer than down pillows, and so on.

Tolerance problems with tech cameras, making it hard to focus: Silvestri.

Companies which promise openness, then go closed: Hasselblad H2->H3D.

Those were just as many issues as I could write down in two minutes without thinking too deeply. There are many, many, MANY more, such as insane prices, spotty support, dealers which blame problems for spotty cameras on the photographer, flaky Firewire connections and cables, dim focusing screens, inflexible viewfinder options, poorly thought-out firmware update systems, flaky software with brain-dead or out-of-date interfaces, and on and on and on and on and on and on.

This is almost ALL stuff which a D3x owner doesn't have to deal with. Some of the systems are better thought out than the rest, but there are still WAY too many issues and caveats. What is really needed is for a company to come in, take stock, and design a system which avoids all the BS and just works. Listening to Big Cooter and James Russell and others only reinforces this opinion. There is just way too much BS with MF systems at the moment.

And this is all just from what I have heard. I don't even own one yet. I have a Contax 645 system and two Blad Vs, and plan to get a Sinar back sometime soon, provided the whole Hy6 debacle works out reasonably. To my long list of problems, any busy pro could probably add another 100 issues. I have more than once just considered getting an A900 and a couple of good Zeiss lenses. Now I am watching the Leica S2 very carefully. Leica has a long history of top-notch products, and when they inevitably mess up, they stick around and try to fix things properly. I respect this company, and their lenses are awesome. If the S2 really hits the high-end studio fashion soft spot that Leica seems to be aiming for, it ought to really shake up the industry.

[Carsten W]

Eric, in fact I am really enamoured with both the 6008AF and the Hy6. If the lenses weren't so pricy and hard to find I would have picked up a 6008AF instead of the Contax 645. Besides, I really wanted to try both the 35mm f3.5 and 120mm f4 Macro Contax 645 lenses. In general, the whole Rolleiflex universe appears to be of very high quality. Only the very wide lens is missing. They still suffer from the missing high ISO, low shooting rates, and so on, however.

The primary failure of the whole F&H/Sinar/Leaf triumvirate is to fail to make the whole thing compelling. The few niggles, such as too-loose contacts on the left side, and missing finders, should be easily fixable, if they listen properly. But F&H has never really fixed whatever was wrong with their marketing/sales/support strategy, but just stupidly insisted that everything was fine, and so they never reached the penetration of the Hasselblad V cameras, and more recently, the H. In the end, they are a minor player, and always were. Sad, but true.

[csp]

The primary failure of the whole F&H/Sinar/Leaf triumvirate is to fail to make the whole thing compelling. The few niggles, such as too-loose contacts on the left side, and missing finders, should be easily fixable, if they listen properly. But F&H has never really fixed whatever was wrong with their marketing/sales/support strategy, but just stupidly insisted that everything was fine, and so they never reached the penetration of the Hasselblad V cameras, and more recently, the H. In the end, they are a minor player, and always were. Sad, but true.

...so true carsten, and only stupid managers can think it is enough to change the name of a camera to erase the record what caused the rollei troubles in the past.  in the view of many collegues  rollei was not reliable enough for professional usage.  although rollei was  featured extensively in german photo mags those days  the studios were dominated by hasselblad and mamiya and they still are.  

[Carsten W]

...so true carsten, and only stupid managers can think it is enough to change the name of a camera to erase the record what caused the rollei troubles in the past.  in the view of many collegues  rollei was not reliable enough for professional usage.  although rollei was  featured extensively in german photo mags those days  the studios were dominated by hasselblad and mamiya and they still are.

Well, I have never heard that Rollei cameras were less reliable than Hasselblads, but then again, if the support channel is iffy, then the end result is that people won't buy them.