Franke & Heidecke became insovent

[Guy Mancuso]

I just don't think any company right now would be taking this risk on. Very limited market and given the recession to survive prices have to come down a lot to get it going again and instill confidence it will survive later on. Too me it seems not a smart purchase. The sales numbers given they where decent let's say was still not enough to keep it afloat , how would continuing with it help that out with what is going on in the world. Just don't see it as a viable purchase for anyone.

[EricWHiss]

I wonder how many more units Leaf and Sinar would have sold if they could have offered the Rolleiflex all black model?     I love my 6008 AF, and while everyone has their favorites, I also think the schneider glass is just amazing.   I use a lot of the features the camera has to offer such as the fast 1/1000 sync and the remote shutter adapter.  I don't know what other 6x6 systems have the same features.  

[micmatthews]

I was at Digital Transitions today, and they have a bunch of the big guys on back order - BUT they have shipped exactly ZERO. They are back ordered because they have not gotten any from Phase.

The version of the Phase One P65+ shipping today is not the final Sensor+ version of the back. Digital Transitions has chosen not ship the first version to their client because they will need to be upgraded to the final version. When the upgrade takes place the client will then be without a system for a couple of weeks. The final version of the P65+ with sensor + technology should be shipping in the next couple of weeks.

[Leonardo Barreto]

...."they could have offered the Rolleiflex all black model?".... forget about that, it was a digital back platform closed to the leading brand that if I am not mistaken -- If I am I should get flamed, (or even if I am not   -- is PhaseOne. Since there are no Hasselblad backs, that would be living out 50% or more of "clients". But yes, it a nice design, and the Afi comes in all black with a clever interior rotating sensor, interchangeable viewfinders and other nice features ...

[csp]

The actual sales numbers in the past are really irrelevant at this point. The F&H announcement will, as a practical matter, likely destroy the prospects of future sales, even if Sinar/Leaf were to take over the manufacturing operations of F&H for the Hy6. Under the best of circumstances(like a vibrant economy), consumer confidence is a fragile thing. With a camera/back/lens system costing upwards of $50k and in the midst of a severe recession, I think the Hy6 would be a very tough sale to make going forward.

you see it  right and the bankruptcy of F&H is a perfect excuse for sinar and leaf  to close the so "successful" Hy6 project.

[EricWHiss]

...."they could have offered the Rolleiflex all black model?".... forget about that, it was a digital back platform closed to the leading brand that if I am not mistaken -- If I am I should get flamed, (or even if I am not   -- is PhaseOne. Since there are no Hasselblad backs, that would be living out 50% or more of "clients". But yes, it a nice design, and the Afi comes in all black with a clever interior rotating sensor, interchangeable viewfinders and other nice features ...

Leonardo - I was mostly kidding about the all black.  The real reason why I wasn't compelled to upgrade my 6008 AF/ Phase p20  to the Hy6 or AFi was that I had become familiar with the Phase back and it was doing the job for me on most occasions.  I guess I was just hoping that Phase would find a way or interest to put their backs on the Hy6, although the new AFi-10 looks great as does the Sinar e65r that does the DNG in camera and who knows maybe I would have chosen one of them.  Hopefully I'll still have that option!

[ThierryH]

With all due respect: there is nowhere mention of bankruptcy. What the announcement says is F&H has filled in for "insolvency". That is different and opens first the door for a state appointed consultant and controller to look at and decide which creditors will be paid. That can go a certain period of time, usually months. At the same time solutions for the future are looked at and final decisions are only taken after that period of time.

Best regards,
Thierry

you see it  right and the bankruptcy of F&H is a perfect excuse for sinar and leaf  to close the so "successful" Hy6 project.

[H1/A75 Guy]

Short version: the R&D of Hy6 was financed by Jenoptik, they "own" the design (and sell the camera to Leaf/Kodak), the buildings ar rented, the machines are leased, even the brand "Rolleiflex" is owned by a company called "Rollei GmbH".

So, "only" the manufacturing is done by Franke & Heidecke GmbH. And this can be done elsewhere, by somebody else. Of course, it's not that simple. But it seems, that there are no black clouds over the Hy6, only grey ones...
And, of course, a disaster for the employees and a loss for germany's economy.

Thank you. Best bet is that Jenoptik will step up and manufacture the Hy6/AFi. If not, it may not be uncommon in Germany for a company that goes into insolvency to be offered a state funded bail-out for 90 days. As a more than delighted owner of an AFi II 7, I'm not rushing to buy a spare AFi body just yet.

David

[csp]

With all due respect: there is nowhere mention of bankruptcy. What the announcement says is F&H has filled in for "insolvency". That is different and opens first the door for a state appointed consultant and controller to look at and decide which creditors will be paid. That can go a certain period of time, usually months. At the same time solutions for the future are looked at and final decisions are only taken after that period of time.

Best regards,
Thierry

"....state appointed consultant"  with respect this is plain nonsense.  what in germany is called insolvenz is konkurs in switzerland = bankruptcy

"Bankruptcy is a legally declared inability or impairment of ability of an individual or organization to pay its creditors. Creditors may file a bankruptcy petition against a debtor ("involuntary bankruptcy") in an effort to recoup a portion of what they are owed or initiate a restructuring. In the majority of cases, however, bankruptcy is initiated by the debtor (a "voluntary bankruptcy" that is filed by the bankrupt individual or organization) "

from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bankruptcy.

[Martin Kristiansen]

The below text is part of a mail I received this morning from my local Leaf supplier. He sent it on to me and said I may post it on this forum.

"Regardless of what you might have heard,  the F&H manufacturing plant is operating normally and will  continue to operate while F&H works with their creditors to  reach agreement on the best way forward. While this process advances, production of Leaf AFi parts and components continues. To further ensure that F&H continues  operating efficiently, an interim  administrator is being appointed to evaluate the F&H business. What this means is  that we will continue delivering Leaf AFi-II camera systems, lenses and  accessories.
 
 F&H investors have recently made  a lot of progress in modernizing their  production facilities and processes. We have recently seen great improvements made in a  very short time. These improvements add to the real value of F&H and  contribute to the likelihood of creating a solution that will support the  factory’s future.

In parallel to  the actions being taken by F&H, Leaf is investigating all possible  opportunities to ensure that Leaf can achieve its goals and help you to achieve yours. This effort includes urgent work with  Jenoptik, F&H, our sales managers and dealers  worldwide."


Martin

[ThierryH]

"....state appointed consultant"  with respect this is plain nonsense.  what in germany is called insolvenz is konkurs in switzerland = bankruptcy
from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bankruptcy.

csp, this for your information, and not from myself:

" ... an interim administrator is being appointed to evaluate the F&H business". See post above and information published by Martin.

Then, if you wish to quote Wikipedia, then please quote it until the end, here in German:

"... Der Sinn der Insolvenz und des dann folgenden Insolvenz-Verfahrens ist es, entweder die Zahlungsfähigkeit wieder herzustellen, oder die Situation geordnet abzuwickeln (bei Unternehmen durch Auflösung, bei Einzelpersonen letztlich durch Restschuldbefreiung). Nach Abschluss des Insolvenzverfahrens verfallen dann in der Regel alle noch unbefriedigten Ansprüche der Gläubiger gegenüber dem Schuldner".

And that is EXACTLY what I said, nothing else. You should be knowing that I am checking this before posting something as serious as that.

or in English, the Wikipedia defintion of "Insolvency":

"Insolvency is not a synonym for bankruptcy, which is a determination of insolvency made by a court of law with resulting legal orders intended to resolve the insolvency".

There is/are NO legal order(s) at this stage, simply an appointed administrator.

and then the definition of "bankruptcy":

"Bankruptcy is a legally declared inability or impairment of ability of an individual or organization to pay its creditors".

That is quite different to the current situation. Both can lead to the same result, but bankruptcy is decided in a legal way, ONLY, not by the company, and usually after a so-called "insolvency period".

Thanks and best regards,
Thierry

[csp]

csp, this for your information, and not from myself:

" ... an interim administrator is being appointed to evaluate the F&H business". See post above and information published by Martin.

Then, if you wish to quote Wikipedia, then please quote it until the end, here in German:

"... Der Sinn der Insolvenz und des dann folgenden Insolvenz-Verfahrens ist es, entweder die Zahlungsfähigkeit wieder herzustellen, oder die Situation geordnet abzuwickeln (bei Unternehmen durch Auflösung, bei Einzelpersonen letztlich durch Restschuldbefreiung). Nach Abschluss des Insolvenzverfahrens verfallen dann in der Regel alle noch unbefriedigten Ansprüche der Gläubiger gegenüber dem Schuldner".

And that is EXACTLY what I said, nothing else. You should be knowing that I am checking this before posting something as serious as that.

or in English, the Wikipedia defintion of "Insolvency":

"Insolvency is not a synonym for bankruptcy, which is a determination of insolvency made by a court of law with resulting legal orders intended to resolve the insolvency".

There is/are NO legal order(s) at this stage, simply an appointed administrator.

and then the definition of "bankruptcy":

"Bankruptcy is a legally declared inability or impairment of ability of an individual or organization to pay its creditors".

That is quite different to the current situation. Both can lead to the same result, but bankruptcy is decided in a legal way, ONLY, not by the company, and usually after a so-called "insolvency period".

Thanks and best regards,
Thierry

i give up you are also an expert  in business law , call it whatever your interests fits.

[Martin Kristiansen]

I am personally very saddened by the news of F & H getting into difficulties. It is disturbing for the employees, investors, resellers and end users of the equipment. I have used Leaf for 6 years and the service I have received has been of a very high standard. I am very busy at the moment and the AFI has performed tirelessly for over a year without a single hitch. I love the feel of the camera and my clients are happy with the quality.

We get a lot of traffic on this part of the forum about how medium format is hopeless and overpriced and destined to disappear. Well in my world this would be a disaster. I stopped using dslr in my studio for everything except catalog work where we shoot hundreds of products destined for smaller than A6. With MF we are not on the edge when requested to shoot for point of sale posters and such as we found ourselves when shooting DSLR. I dont have to worry about the lenses as I did when shooting DSLR. I just do not understand what I see as an undercurrent of happiness over the difficulties MF finds itself in. We have seen loads of camera manufactures disappear recently, a lot of them in the 35mm market. Why be happy over it?

If you dont like MF or cant afford it or whatever then just dont buy it. There is more information on this section of the forum about how we dont need MF than there is useful info on how to use them efectivly.

Anyway it is always sad when people lose there jobs and for all sorts of reasons I hope this issue with F&H is resolved in a positive way.

[eronald]

...."they could have offered the Rolleiflex all black model?".... forget about that, it was a digital back platform closed to the leading brand that if I am not mistaken -- If I am I should get flamed, (or even if I am not   -- is PhaseOne. Since there are no Hasselblad backs, that would be living out 50% or more of "clients". But yes, it a nice design, and the Afi comes in all black with a clever interior rotating sensor, interchangeable viewfinders and other nice features ...

Yes, I would agree that closing the system with respect to Phase customers killed it. I would bet that at least 50% of existing Phase customers would have preferred Schneider glass to Mamiya glass if left a choice.

Edmund

[mcfoto]

Hi
Back in April 2006 we did a promotion for the ZD camera. As we all know Mamiya was sold to another company in April 2006. Gay & I were at the PMA show in Sydney on May 1st/2006 & the word on the floor was Mamiya was going out of business. After wards when I talked to the agent for Mamiya he said that news basicly killed the sales for the ZD. Sure maybe the ZD wasn't the best but word on the street was not good.
 This is now 2009 in not the best of economic times, hell the US car market dropped about 40% year to year. Now the MFD sector has not been strong for a few years...... Now we hear this news about the Hy6.......does this instill  confidence in the market? I don't think so! When we shoot MFD our choice is Leaf. These are very interesting times!
Denis

[PeterA]

Peter, you are right to a very large extent.

But, I think if you talk to the major medium format camera and back companies you'd find that pros still make up some 70% of their market. (And some even have fun doing what they do, come on my trips and read this forum).

There are a great many who shoot fashion, architecture and product who in days past used large format and today use high-end digital. Of course the economic slump has knocked the pins out from under everyone, but there continue to be commercial photographers who have the means and the need to buy $30-$40,000 systems.

Whether there are enough to keep the smaller companies in business on an ongoing basis is dubious though.

Regretably I think that within 6 months we'll be down to just two companies in this market segment.

Michael

Michael, there is ever only one certainty - change. MF set the benchmark for many years..it is now playing pretty much the end game now in terms of losing much of its once competitive advantage in the pro sector..
personally I hate seeing the decline of the boutique specialist small shop manufacturer - usually quality goes down with their exits..certainly choice goes out th window and often development as well..I hoping that there will be three left for at least the next few years..great site Michael.

Pete

[ThierryH]

Not at all my interests, but for the sake of clarity of information.

Best regards,
Thierry

i give up you are also an expert  in business law , call it whatever your interests fits.

[vydalex]

Unfortunately, it's only the beginning.
Leaf, Sinar, Hasselblad, PhaseOne, Mamiya... Discussion with them at the Photokina in October, they all say (said as an aside)  that in the MF market, there is place for only two....

… but there continue to be commercial photographers who have the means and the need to buy $30-$40,000 systems.
Whether there are enough to keep the smaller companies in business on an ongoing basis is dubious though.
Regretably I think that within 6 months we'll be down to just two companies in this market segment.

Michael

Michael, I see you have  same information… and same thought.
Hasselblad, Leaf, PhaseOne/Mamiya? It is going to depend on which big group will be behind.

alex

[Leonardo Barreto]

Thierry, I think your point is valid, I will not use the bankruptcy term since there it arguably can or cannot apply here, I used it as an expression...

I think that this are difficult times and we probably see more changes. I wonder what will happen with Leica and more specifically with the plans for the S2 system. This is an even more ambitious project that comes at an even latter time in to the big storm.

On the other hand I heard rumors that PENTAX is now thinking to come out --after showing a model 4 years ago -- with their own 645 back or camera/back...

The future of the MF, including Hy6 may be in the mid term future when 35mm hits serious problems of DIFFRACTION effect and limitations related to 35mm glass and of squeezing millions more of sensels in the same real state. At the same time sensor production may drop so much in price that larger formats would be an attractive ways for the commercial photographers to improve their services.

Not at all my interests, but for the sake of clarity of information.

Best regards,
Thierry

[ivan muller]

i find this hard to believe too.
maybe there are more working dentists out than photographers .... some big seller of mf systems told me recently that its hard to believe how many amateurs buy the new 50mp hassy, could be similar with the p65.

hi Rainer,

A while ago I went to see a dentist to fix a broken filling. started chatting when he heard I was a photographer. told me he had a Hassy H1 or 2 etc etc. didnt see any photos on his walls so.....  end of story he wouldnt fix my filling, but I walked out with a quote for 6000 Euro(equivalent) for a porcelain replacement of all my fillings!!! At that time I had just bought my ZD, with a loan, payable over 4years for roughly the same amount as the quote!

By the way, I have just had my best month ever, and the last 4/5 months have been good but  90% of the work was done on a 450d canon! The ZD was only used for jobs were I knew they would want large prints. Go figure!

Regards, Ivan