Luminous Landscape Forum

Equipment & Techniques => Medium Format / Film / Digital Backs – and Large Sensor Photography => Topic started by: flashfredrikson on March 02, 2009, 12:06:24 pm

Title: Franke & Heidecke became insovent
Post by: flashfredrikson on March 02, 2009, 12:06:24 pm
German Photography News site Photoscala reports that F&H, manufacturers of the Hy6 and AFi bodys, became insolvent:

http://photoscala.de/Artikel/Franke-Heidecke-ist-insolvent (http://photoscala.de/Artikel/Franke-Heidecke-ist-insolvent)

(in german)


cheers,
martin
Title: Franke & Heidecke became insovent
Post by: paulmoorestudio on March 02, 2009, 12:11:57 pm
how about a translation for us that are german impaired.
Title: Franke & Heidecke became insovent
Post by: David Grover / Capture One on March 02, 2009, 12:14:50 pm
You could use google translate...

http://translate.google.com (http://translate.google.com)
Title: Franke & Heidecke became insovent
Post by: bob mccarthy on March 02, 2009, 12:16:11 pm
Google translation,  not very good but you get the idea




Franke & Heidecke is insolvent

of Editorial photo scala On Monday 02 March 2009 - 17:57
Bad news from Brunswick: Franke & Heidecke GmbH, recently by Hans R. Schmid Beteiligungs GmbH, has declared bankruptcy - because of financial and other contaminated sites:

Franke & Heidecke agrees with this:

Franke & Heidecke declares insolvency

Franke & Heidecke GmbH, Precision & Optical, headquartered in Brunswick has declared insolvency.

The Hans R. Schmid Beteiligungs GmbH, Offenburg, had in September 2008 a majority of the company involved. For the majority shareholder Hans R. Schmid, an avowed follower of the products of the house, his commitment as a "heart issue" had said, there was no longer an alternative as to insolvency.

Although at the time of the takeover it was clear that a successful rehabilitation with significant effort would be, Schmid took the job and acted decisively: Additional specialists were recruited, the weaknesses in the company and millions of rays including manufacturing and quality assurance invested.

These measures succeeded in quickly to make progress, however, were the massive failures of the past, not in the required time to remove. When finally - the new shareholders at the time of the takeover is not known - financial and other contaminated sites were revealed, it became clear that a self-remediation, using millions of other amounts to be consulted. This even more than was added that negotiations with key business partners, banks, and the attempt to obtain public funds, also failed.

The new shareholders had until the last several times, and despite significant loss risk additional funds invested into the company and gave the society and the hope of receiving the 131 jobs so long alive. Now was the bankruptcy no longer be avoided. Schmid has invested a 2-digit million amount.

Brunswick, 27 February 2009


What now with Franke & Heidecke, but also with the cameras Hy6 Sinar and Leaf Afi (Franke & Heidecke prouzierte the case for both) happens, we try to know.
Title: Franke & Heidecke became insovent
Post by: David Grover / Capture One on March 02, 2009, 12:27:58 pm
Thats a big pity.  :-(

I hope that maybe Kodak or Leaf could step in and take them over.

Best,



David


Title: Franke & Heidecke became insovent
Post by: paulmoorestudio on March 02, 2009, 12:40:17 pm
I thought of kodak too.. but I am afraid they are in no position like they were when they did buy a german camera company in the 30's.
the last all european medium format system.. would be a shame for it to disappear.. we have a real dominos game going on now.. what is next?
Title: Franke & Heidecke became insovent
Post by: Carl Glover on March 02, 2009, 12:48:31 pm
Maybe Jenoptik will step in and keep Rollei going.

The Hy6 is a mighty fine camera.
Title: Franke & Heidecke became insovent
Post by: roskav on March 02, 2009, 01:18:33 pm
Not good news.  Just looking at their previous press release in September 2008 "The future belongs to us"   How things change so quickly.  I have had to put off an equipment upgrade for at least 2 years ... it's really hard to make my minimum monthly target since November 2008 and everybody is looking for deals.  Would end user demand have an effect on a product manufacturer in such a short space of time?

Ros


Title: Franke & Heidecke became insovent
Post by: Guy Mancuso on March 02, 2009, 01:24:18 pm
Simple not good for the whole industry and owners of there products.
Title: Franke & Heidecke became insovent
Post by: free1000 on March 02, 2009, 01:42:54 pm
I think that this should cause some careful thinking about the viability of new MF systems, especially expensive ones from the likes of Leica.

As for Canon and Nikon... this should give some pause for thought.

All rather sad. I had this dream that I'd win the lottery, or wake up one morning and find I was a rich orthodontist and not a photographer,  and buy an AFi with a f2 100mm AF lens... ahh... the dream has died.
Title: Franke & Heidecke became insovent
Post by: mcfoto on March 02, 2009, 02:06:05 pm
Hi
In the current market when there is comment that the Nikon D3x is too expensive, I am not surprised. I have handled the Hy6 & it is a very beautiful camera. MFD has been hit hard here in Australia over the years. The wedding/portrait sector which is the largest have all gone over to 35D except for a handful. When it comes to the pro market most of the digital operators I talk to prefer the Phase One software. In the rental market the H2 is very strong. However Phase/Mamiya seems to be coming back. Personally what I like about Mamiya is that it is affordable. I still own one kit & rent the Leaf Aptus ( I love the quality ) when required. Bottom line is cost & I think photographers are going for the biggest bang for there buck these days. I find the cost of doing business is higher because of digital. Every 2-3 years you have to upgrade your camera/digital back, computer, software, monitor, the countless hard drives.............
Denis
Title: Franke & Heidecke became insovent
Post by: michael on March 02, 2009, 02:51:53 pm
I have just put online an Egnglish language version of the insolvency announcement. It's linked on my What's New page.

Very sad. But likely not the last of the shakeup announcements in the industry that will be seen in the days ahead.

Michael
Title: Franke & Heidecke became insovent
Post by: Snook on March 02, 2009, 03:00:48 pm
I agree it is the first of many to come for sure!!
I guess they are even lucky it lasted this long really.
The D3x,5DII and 1DsMIII have killed the MF market.. PERIOD
You can talk all the technical BS you want. In most mediums you will not see the differnce in quality and many are going to internet sale where quality is even less important.
I have had 3 Big catalogue companies go to WEB ONLY catalogues since the "depression" and many more are following hen Paper expenses are out of control for pritning so many catalogues and then putting them in the local newspaper is even more expensive for the wieght.

I seriuosly DOUBT the leica S2 will go anywhere. Hopefully not but I doubt they are anybody else will be investing in MF.
Ashame specially when I got into MF righ before the shit hit the fan.
I see a difference in quality, but my clients do not...:+{
Medium format was on a bumpy road before the crisis. I think mpossible to keep up during a crisis..?

I wonder how many people are buying the P65+.. My guess is very few are or will. Certainly not enough to keep Phase above the water for very long.

They should all start offering better deals and closer to Canon/Nikon prices or simple they will all start to fold.


Snook
Title: Franke & Heidecke became insovent
Post by: klane on March 02, 2009, 03:07:14 pm
I would think Jenoptik will buy them, then they can have the hy6 to themselves shutting down the AFI.  Seems logical.
Title: Franke & Heidecke became insovent
Post by: michael on March 02, 2009, 03:12:21 pm
Sorry Snook, but things are not always what they seem.

I can't speak for other products but I know that the P65+ is now in a backorder situation for months to come because demand has been so high.

Some photographers need and can afford what it offers, others don't.

But, having said that, I do agree that the lower end of the MF industry is starting to suck wind.

Michael

Title: Franke & Heidecke became insovent
Post by: csp on March 02, 2009, 03:13:34 pm
does this really come as a surprise ?  it is only sad for those how believed that they have bought a product with future which it never had.
 i'm very sure this is not the end of bad news.  the market is to small and i very much doubt that leaf or jenoptik could or will save the sinking ship
this days. further more i `m convinced that it is realistic that jenoptik/sinar will stop its mf business soon. but the positiv side is that this development makes hasselbald and maybe mamiya/phase stronger.
Title: Franke & Heidecke became insovent
Post by: pixjohn on March 02, 2009, 04:35:38 pm
I wonder how this will effect Leaf's business?  The only new camera  Leaf will be able to mount on is Mamiya.   I shoot with an H2 and Leaf, and hate having to search high and wide to just find a good shape 2nd  H2 body.
Title: Franke & Heidecke became insovent
Post by: arashm on March 02, 2009, 04:44:48 pm
Yes I think Mamiya will be a logical choice for Leaf...
sad to see this play out this way
am
Title: Franke & Heidecke became insovent
Post by: TMARK on March 02, 2009, 05:00:38 pm
Quote from: Roskav
Would end user demand have an effect on a product manufacturer in such a short space of time?

Ros

Not really, but lack of credit can shut a company down unless there are significant cash reserves.  I don't think they will be gone forever.
Title: Franke & Heidecke became insovent
Post by: woof75 on March 02, 2009, 05:30:54 pm
God, if there's any sign that Mamiya is going out of business and I'm buying 3 spare bodies and 2 copies of the lenses I use. So far though so good. To be honest that Hy6 always seemed an odd solution and with the economy as it is, a very odd one.
Title: Franke & Heidecke became insovent
Post by: Graham Mitchell on March 02, 2009, 05:33:21 pm
Quote from: klane
I would think Jenoptik will buy them, then they can have the hy6 to themselves shutting down the AFI.  Seems logical.

+1. I hope so. Let's wait and see.
Title: Franke & Heidecke became insovent
Post by: hubell on March 02, 2009, 05:45:56 pm
When I heard the news about Thierry being laid off, I had a strong suspicion that Sinar would be exiting the medium format digital business in the near future. That may yet happen, but so far we just know that F&H has filed for bankruptcy. In the US, a bankrutcy filing does not necessarily result in a shut down of operations, but that seems to be the case for F&H. The next question is will Sinar be interested in buying the Hy6/Rolleiflex assets from the bankrupt company? It appears no, because  they probably do not want to double down with a bigger bet on medium format digital and they probably would not have laid off Thierry if that was their strategy. He was one of  their best assets in this business. Does anyone think that Thierry's announcement was NOT connected with the F&H bankruptcy filing? So, who would buy the Hy6/Rolleiflex assets? Leaf/Kodak? No way do I see Kodak doing that. Phase? Very doubtful. They seem very risk averse to me, and they have their bride in Mamiya. (She ain't beautiful, but she gets the job done.) Surely not Hasselblad. Who is left? EPd and Foto-Z? So, the departure of Sinar from the medium format business seems quite likely. Can Leaf be far behind? Very sad, if it comes to that.
As the negative market forces impacting those who make medium format digital cameras and backs continue to accelerate, it becomes more and more clear that a company simply cannot cut it today making just medium format cameras  (and even lenses) at the applicable profit margins. The demise of F&H is an object lesson in that reality. (I guess Hasselblad made the right call back in 2006 with the H3D.) Who knows how it is working out for Mamiya just manufacturing cameras and lenses? Better with Phase than without, but compared to 10 years ago, the unit sales volume of Mamiya cameras and lenses today is probably chump change.
Title: Franke & Heidecke became insovent
Post by: Bill VN on March 02, 2009, 05:55:18 pm
Something sounds funny if you read the news release. It sounds like F&H may have had some skeletons in the attic that killed the new owner's ability to reorganize. Perhaps, they are being sued by a previous vendor from the Rollei Technic years or a victims organization that realized that the original F&H employed Nazi slave labor in WWII. It is amazing how things can come out of the blue!
Title: Franke & Heidecke became insovent
Post by: evgeny on March 02, 2009, 06:07:38 pm
1. A company which is not in photo business will buy F&H. Suppose a Japanese investor.
2. Not likely Nikon, Canon or Sony will buy F&H just because they have money.
3. Not likely F&H will became a history.
Title: Franke & Heidecke became insovent
Post by: Leonardo Barreto on March 02, 2009, 06:27:40 pm
Hy6 is not a viable system because it has no wide angle capability. Hasselblad has a 28mm, Phase/Mamiya has a 28mm Hy6 don't even get to 35mm ! and the 28mm was never even in the pipeline.

Then there is the meltdown of world economy and the availability of 24mp cameras from $2k to $8k with tons of lenses going from fish eye to 1000mm.

PhaseOne and Mamiya are offering the best value, 60mp backs and Capture 1, arguably the best capture software...

Even in pre-crash economy, if you where going to invest $30k on a back, $20k on camera and lenses you consider the viability of the system you are investing in to. Also on the availability of all components necessary to professional work, and that includes moderate to wide angle lenses.

Thierry defended the system the best way he could, but the arguments when in two directions: a) you don't really need wide angle capability  you can get wide view by using larger than 6x4.5 sensors -

I may be getting closer to be able to say I told you so?
Title: Franke & Heidecke became insovent
Post by: bdp on March 02, 2009, 06:55:44 pm
It would make sense to me if Kodak (Leaf) and Jenoptik (Sinar) would do a deal to financially prop up the manufacture of the camera they both have such a big interest in. They have other deals together, such as the 56mpx back being shared between the two companies.

Ben
Title: Franke & Heidecke became insovent
Post by: gwhitf on March 02, 2009, 06:55:54 pm
Quote from: michael
I can't speak for other products but I know that the P65+ is now in a backorder situation for months to come because demand has been so high.
Some photographers need and can afford what it offers, others don't.
But, having said that, I do agree that the lower end of the MF industry is starting to suck wind.

I agree with this sentiment. I think you'll begin to see more Top End, and more Bottom End, and less Middle of the Road Beige.

P65, P45; Canon and Nikon. Everything else gets lost in the blur.
Title: Franke & Heidecke became insovent
Post by: ThierryH on March 02, 2009, 07:15:49 pm
Hi Leonardo,

yes, I said so, and still think so. But I said as well that MOST of the MF users DO NOT need a 28mm lens: when you meet photographers and when you speak with them, the vast majority has no need of it.
However, I would have expected the 35mm to be available in time.

Best regards,
Thierry

Quote from: Leonardo Barreto
Thierry defended the system the best way he could, but the arguments when in two directions: a) you don't really need wide angle capability  you can get wide view by using larger than 6x4.5 sensors -
Title: Franke & Heidecke became insovent
Post by: Leonardo Barreto on March 02, 2009, 07:17:54 pm
Quote from: bdp
It would make sense to me if Kodak (Leaf) and Jenoptik (Sinar) would do a deal to financially prop up the manufacture of the camera they both have such a big interest in. They have other deals together, such as the 56mpx back being shared between the two companies.

Ben

The system design is better left for extinction since it does not bring anything to the MF format, it is 6x6, when backs are 6x4.5, not cheaper, or lighter. It has no better lenses, but on the contrary, no options for wide angles, and now its survival --this is if it is not completely dead by now -- is in question.

Would you "save" $30k on a bank that is rumored to go under in the near future?  
Title: Franke & Heidecke became insovent
Post by: bdp on March 02, 2009, 07:36:59 pm
Quote from: Leonardo Barreto
The system design is better left for extinction since it does not bring anything to the MF format, it is 6x6, when backs are 6x4.5, not cheaper, or lighter. It has no better lenses, but on the contrary, no options for wide angles, and now its survival --this is if it is not completely dead by now -- is in question.

Would you "save" $30k on a bank that is rumored to go under in the near future?


In favour of what? A crusty old Mamiya system with recycled lenses from the Ukraine or a closed out Hasselblad system with lenses that needs software correction of their faults? IMO the Hy6 was the only new exciting thing out there in terms of camera hardware.
Title: Franke & Heidecke became insovent
Post by: Leonardo Barreto on March 02, 2009, 07:53:42 pm
bdp, do you realize you may be defending a dead man walking system?, if so, then:

Show me tests where the Mamiya 28mm is outperformed by a Hy6 lens. Or any other Mamiya lens for that matter.

Hy6 is exciting only on the surface but nothing going in to the future.. that may be the reason why it may not see the future.
 
Quote from: bdp
In favour of what? A crusty old Mamiya system with recycled lenses from the Ukraine or a closed out Hasselblad system with lenses that needs software correction of their faults? IMO the Hy6 was the only new exciting thing out there in terms of camera hardware.
Title: Franke & Heidecke became insovent
Post by: bdp on March 02, 2009, 07:58:41 pm
Quote from: Leonardo Barreto
bdp, do you realize you may be defending a dead man walking system?, if so, then:

Show me tests where the Mamiya 28mm is outperformed by a Hy6 lens. Or any other Mamiya lens for that matter.

Hy6 is exciting only on the surface but nothing going in to the future.. that may be the reason why it may not see the future.


OK, perhaps a bit harsh. I expected a flaming  

Ben
Title: Franke & Heidecke became insovent
Post by: bcooter on March 02, 2009, 08:07:18 pm
Quote from: gwhitf
I agree with this sentiment. I think you'll begin to see more Top End, and more Bottom End, and less Middle of the Road Beige.

P65, P45; Canon and Nikon. Everything else gets lost in the blur.



I liked the idea of the HY6 and think it was a solid system, especially long term if sensors would go to the full frame size of 6x6 and if the lens line had expanded.  

The thing that kept me away from it wasn't the cost.  It was that it is only available for only two makers digital backs.  I feel he same way about any proprietary medium format camera and it doesn't mean I don't think Sinar, Hasselblad and leaf are not good, it just limits the options.

Who would have ever introduced a film that was proprietary to only a few cameras and expected success,  but in theory that is the way medium format digital has been going.

Regardless of the economy medium format is different than Canon vs. Nikon and 35mm.  Medium format needs to grow the segment not just a specific brand.  The moment deals are made, cameras/lenses were sealed off from competitors is just another reason for a buyer to hesitate before investing into medium format, which is the opposite process of building a market.  

Maybe I'm missing something, but prior to digital almost every professional owned a medium format system and few of them sold film to go along with it.  They seemed to do just fine selling cameras and lenses.

Now it seems the opposite that the film (digital back) is what really matters and the cameras are just the incentive to get the photographer to buy a phase, leaf, sinar or hasselblad and if the camera maker doesn't have a digital back they go away.  It makes no sense as I am positive today their are more photographers than any time in the past, so obviously there is more sales possibilities.

Today you don't have to go far to find a professional photographer that owns a dslr, you don't even have to look hard to find one that periodically rents a medium format camera, but ownership seems be less and less of a standard practice.

Personally, I disagree that medium format should lock themselves into only the very high end of the market.   It doesn't build the segment.

Title: Franke & Heidecke became insovent
Post by: Leonardo Barreto on March 02, 2009, 08:17:12 pm
Quote from: bdp
OK, perhaps a bit harsh. I expected a flaming  

Ben
   I'm thinking to myself "I hope such tests of Mamiya lens inferiority do not exist/materialize". So I should say that probably Rollei/Schneider and all other difficult to spell lens brands are good and some sharper than the Mamiyas (not including the east European probably, but not necessarily) but that is not the point. We are moving in to the future and the ones that survive are not showing scrupulous, for example: Hasselblad. They closed their system and used their 28mm -it shows how important a 28mm is- in order to get some more chips and stay at the table longer. Mamiya went almost dead with their ZD experiment. PhaseOne got in bed with Mamiya and gave its name to off springs that resemble Mamiya 100%...

Probably the next in trouble is SINAR, and Leaf may go down since the two used their turn on a bad hand of cards, they spent money and time on a camera platform when camera platforms where looking for digital backs... How many SINAR backs are going to go of shelves if there is no Hy6? none go to Hasselblad platform since it si closed. So that lives Mamiya. Same with Leaf.

For the rental houses two good brands are all they need, now they have 3 ... who they feel is the less "exiting" system is the key to what happens next...  

Title: Franke & Heidecke became insovent
Post by: hubell on March 02, 2009, 08:53:38 pm
Quote from: bcooter
I liked the idea of the HY6 and think it was a solid system, especially long term if sensors would go to the full frame size of 6x6 and if the lens line had expanded.  

The thing that kept me away from it wasn't the cost.  It was that it is only available for only two makers digital backs.  I feel he same way about any proprietary medium format camera and it doesn't mean I don't think Sinar, Hasselblad and leaf are not good, it just limits the options.

Who would have ever introduced a film that was proprietary to only a few cameras and expected success,  but in theory that is the way medium format digital has been going.

Regardless of the economy medium format is different than Canon vs. Nikon and 35mm.  Medium format needs to grow the segment not just a specific brand.  The moment deals are made, cameras/lenses were sealed off from competitors is just another reason for a buyer to hesitate before investing into medium format, which is the opposite process of building a market.  

Maybe I'm missing something, but prior to digital almost every professional owned a medium format system and few of them sold film to go along with it.  They seemed to do just fine selling cameras and lenses.

Now it seems the opposite that the film (digital back) is what really matters and the cameras are just the incentive to get the photographer to buy a phase, leaf, sinar or hasselblad and if the camera maker doesn't have a digital back they go away.  It makes no sense as I am positive today their are more photographers than any time in the past, so obviously there is more sales possibilities.

Today you don't have to go far to find a professional photographer that owns a dslr, you don't even have to look hard to find one that periodically rents a medium format camera, but ownership seems be less and less of a standard practice.

Personally, I disagree that medium format should lock themselves into only the very high end of the market.   It doesn't build the segment.

Whatever the economics behind the demise of medium format camera makers, the reality is inescapable that it's a dead end business. Bronica, gone. Pentax, gone. Contax, gone. F&H, apparently gone. Mamiya, gone but for the intervention of Phase One to prop up its sales after the parent company pulled the plug on the brand. Hasselblad, heading inexorably down that road till the H3D made them vibrant. You see a trend here?
Moreover, if you think it's medium format digital makers who are choosing to surrender the low end of their market in order to focus on the high end, I think you have it all wrong. It's Nikon, Canon and Sony that are forcing them into it by providing feature rich offerings with 25mp that leave internet forums arguing endlessly about who, if anyone, can see the difference in the files between a D3X/1DSIII/A900 and a Phase P30. Most consumers will balk at spending 2x-3x the cost of a great DSLR if they have to do handstands in Photoshop or make very large prints to see the benefits of the P30 file. And that was before the economy fully tanked.
Title: Franke & Heidecke became insovent
Post by: rethmeier on March 02, 2009, 09:08:04 pm
As a lot of people here know,that I just recently sold my Hy6/e75LVr kit.
I wouldn't have sold it if it had a 28 mm lens in the offering.
Yes,I could have gone the ArTec way and spend another $35000,however I opted for a D3x.
The files and the ease of shooting with that camera make my day.
Yes,there is barrel and CA,but at least I can see what I'm doing and shoot fast or slow for that matter.

Do I miss the Hy6?

Of course!

IMO still the nicest MFDB camera out there!

Cheers,
Willem.
Title: Franke & Heidecke became insovent
Post by: ThierryH on March 02, 2009, 09:25:47 pm
That's absolutely true, Howard.

Not an easy task, as a small player (and Hasselblad, Leaf, Phase and Sinar ARE small players) to compete. Despite all the good intentions and plans, that is a hard battle.

Best regards,
Thierry

Quote from: hcubell
Moreover, if you think it's medium format digital makers who are choosing to surrender the low end of their market in order to focus on the high end, I think you have it all wrong. It's Nikon, Canon and Sony that are forcing them into it by providing feature rich offerings with 25mp that leave internet forums arguing endlessly about who, if anyone, can see the difference in the files between a D3X/1DSIII/A900 and a Phase P30. Most consumers will balk at spending 2x-3x the cost of a great DSLR if they have to do handstands in Photoshop or make very large prints to see the benefits of the P30 file. And that was before the economy fully tanked.
Title: Franke & Heidecke became insovent
Post by: ThierryH on March 02, 2009, 10:47:13 pm
It's the "season" in Europe: companies' fiscal year ends December 31st, annual company reports are done, board meetings take place following that at the begin on the year, and decisions are taken.

So yes, in the light of this, more likely to follow.

Best regards,
Thierry

Quote from: michael
But likely not the last of the shakeup announcements in the industry that will be seen in the days ahead.

Michael
Title: Franke & Heidecke became insovent
Post by: ThierryH on March 02, 2009, 10:55:14 pm
not necessarily, "csp", one has to be strong right NOW already, and nobody knows the situation exactly and how hard everybody is hit already.

Best regards,
Thierry

Quote from: csp
but the positiv side is that this development makes hasselbald and maybe mamiya/phase stronger.
Title: Franke & Heidecke became insovent
Post by: ThierryH on March 03, 2009, 12:42:20 am
... and this one has got unnoticed so far:

http://photoscala.de/Artikel/Leica-bekommt-frisches-Kapital (http://photoscala.de/Artikel/Leica-bekommt-frisches-Kapital)

It seems that the banks are holding back and some new fresh own capital has been injected, instead: Euro 9.5 M

Thierry
Title: Franke & Heidecke became insovent
Post by: shutay on March 03, 2009, 01:38:29 am
It would seem to me that it would come down to Kodak and Jenoptik to keep the Hy6 production going as a shared responsibility between them. I also wonder how 4x5 view camera sales are doing these days?
Title: Franke & Heidecke became insovent
Post by: bdp on March 03, 2009, 01:55:36 am
Quote
... and this one has got unnoticed so far:

http://photoscala.de/Artikel/Leica-bekommt-frisches-Kapital (http://photoscala.de/Artikel/Leica-bekommt-frisches-Kapital)

It seems that the banks are holding back and some new fresh own capital has been injected, instead: Euro 9.5 M

Thierry

Thierry.... do you know something you're not telling us...    Did I see Leica's name mentioned there. Come on... spill it!

Ben
Title: Franke & Heidecke became insovent
Post by: EricWHiss on March 03, 2009, 01:57:48 am
This is terrible news...  :-(
 
But maybe if not Jenoptic, then Kodak or even Phase would buy them?    Seems like a fantastic platform with lots of potential still untapped.     Man I hope who ever buys them will come out with a big square back!  


Title: Franke & Heidecke became insovent
Post by: ThierryH on March 03, 2009, 02:40:40 am
Dear Ben,

Yes, the Leica name is mentioned in these article and news.

It means, or so I understand it, that Leica has injected fresh money by means of new actions issued.

Capital increase does usually mean what it is meant for.

Best regards,
Thierry

Quote from: bdp
Thierry.... do you know something you're not telling us...    Did I see Leica's name mentioned there. Come on... spill it!

Ben
Title: Franke & Heidecke became insovent
Post by: paratom on March 03, 2009, 03:23:14 am

As far as I understand the Leica article and also some news I heard in the german radio Leica got this amount of additional capital since they seem to need it. Reasons they named were delayed release of new products (yes- we have been waiting for a R10 for a long time and until summer, when the S2 is avaialble there is kind of a vaccum) and high cost for R&D (I can imagine that the S2 project needs a lot of money).

I dont see the connection with F&H?

I personally strongly believe that the "heart" of F&H and the Hy6-product will survive.
Title: Franke & Heidecke became insovent
Post by: csp on March 03, 2009, 03:33:07 am
the hy6 was definitely not a child of love it was a homunculus fixed together from an dead system.  the only reason for its existence was that hasselblad has closed the door. when leaf and sinar
really want  to  keeping  their child alive they would have invested enough to save F&H from bankruptcy but this seems not the case. i guess the truth is that  beside the great interest in this camera on the web nobody wanted to buy it.
Title: Franke & Heidecke became insovent
Post by: ThierryH on March 03, 2009, 03:36:23 am
No connection at all, I simply mentioned this in relation to the bad and devastating news hitting the market those last days. It seems that not a single company in this MF market will come out as they were before this crisis.

I guess nobody can be untouched, when names like Rolleiflex, Hy6, Leica, etc ... are having troubles. I am not a fan of Leica, but I respect their name and products.

Best regards,
Thierry

Quote from: paratom
I dont see the connection with F&H?
Title: Franke & Heidecke became insovent
Post by: paratom on March 03, 2009, 04:06:19 am
Quote from: Leonardo Barreto
The system design is better left for extinction since it does not bring anything to the MF format, it is 6x6, when backs are 6x4.5, not cheaper, or lighter. It has no better lenses, but on the contrary, no options for wide angles, and now its survival --this is if it is not completely dead by now -- is in question.

Would you "save" $30k on a bank that is rumored to go under in the near future?

I think you miss some facts here:
- rotating back/sensor: this is really a joy to use
- option to use a real and nice WLF: not everybody needs this option but some do (incuding myself) - and this is only possible with 6x6 (except you only shoot landscape)
- sensors do become larger and if we say there is no 6x6 sensor today-this is today. It might be different tomorrow.
- the SCA system of the Hy6 does work with Metz flash (compared to some other cameras)
- limited wide angles yes, but then there are some very nice lenses like the 110/2.0 for example.
-and then there is the user interface: For sure a question of taste but at least it is a different approach- which -after some days of using it- I really like
-feel-factor: For me the Hy6 is the only actual camera which gives me the "feel" factor of a classical MF camera, again, for sure a very subjective factor

There might be some arguments against the Hy6 (like someone who wants/needs 28mm), but there are some arguments for the Hy6 system which are not offered by any other system today. I would rather make my decision based on the product.

If you personally see a camera as a capital investemnt and make the decision for a camera based on your business-expectations regarding the manufacturer is another question.
Title: Franke & Heidecke became insovent
Post by: Smallcooter on March 03, 2009, 04:15:09 am
Quote from: paratom
I think you miss some facts here:
- rotating back/sensor: this is really a joy to use: and this is only possible with 6x6 imagecircle
- option to use a real and nice WLF: not everybody needs this option but some do (incuding myself) - and this is only possible with 6x6 (except you only shoot landscape)
- sensors do become larger and if we say there is no 6x6 sensor today-this is today. It might be different tomorrow.
- the SCA system of the Hy6 does work with Metz flash (compared to some other cameras)
- limited wide angles yes, but then there are some very nice lenses like the 110/2.0 for example.
-and then there is the user interface: For sure a question of taste but at least it is a different approach- which -after some days of using it- I really like
-feel-factor: For me the Hy6 is the only actual camera which gives me the "feel" factor of a classical MF camera, again, for sure a very subjective factor

There might be some arguments against the Hy6 (like someone who wants/needs 28mm), but there are some arguments for the Hy6 system which are not offered by any other system today. I would rather make my decision based on the product.

If you personally see a camera as a capital investemnt and make the decision for a camera based on your business-expectations regarding the manufacturer is another question.

Nicely said; paratom, do you own the Hy6 system?
Title: Franke & Heidecke became insovent
Post by: paratom on March 03, 2009, 04:47:20 am
Quote from: Smallcooter
Nicely said; paratom, do you own the Hy6 system?
How did you know that I like the system?  
Title: Franke & Heidecke became insovent
Post by: Carl Glover on March 03, 2009, 06:24:32 am
I own the system - to me, it feels like a souped-up, lighter, smaller 6008AF designed around digital backs - I love the 1000th second flash sync!

It's the best medium format camera I've ever used with some of the best lenses on the planet. I can't imagine using anything else...
Title: Franke & Heidecke became insovent
Post by: heinrichvoelkel on March 03, 2009, 06:43:00 am
Will be interesting what EpD got to say about this F&H mess, he seemed to have lot of insight.

Where are you?
Title: Franke & Heidecke became insovent
Post by: Khun_K on March 03, 2009, 06:58:02 am
Quote from: Carl Glover
I own the system - to me, it feels like a souped-up, lighter, smaller 6008AF designed around digital backs - I love the 1000th second flash sync!

It's the best medium format camera I've ever used with some of the best lenses on the planet. I can't imagine using anything else...
I agree, the Hy6 is indeed a real pleasure to work and friendly to experienced and inexperienced users. Very sad indeed, but perhaps it is not the end yet?  Probably it depends on ho long this recession will last.
On the other hand, I do not think the lack of interest of Hy6 is the much discussed 28mm, it is not an everyday lens, perhaps for really working landscape professionals, but these days one can easily get by stitched captures. For interior and architecture, I suppose they don't use Hy6 as their main platform anyway. I think the short fall of Hy6 is the short zooms that photographer needs for 80-90% of their photographic works, something between 45-100mm AF zoom. I think every camera system needs to cover basic before covering specific.
Title: Franke & Heidecke became insovent
Post by: Khun_K on March 03, 2009, 07:09:47 am
Quote from: Carl Glover
I own the system - to me, it feels like a souped-up, lighter, smaller 6008AF designed around digital backs - I love the 1000th second flash sync!

It's the best medium format camera I've ever used with some of the best lenses on the planet. I can't imagine using anything else...
I agree, the Hy6 is indeed a real pleasure to work and friendly to experienced and inexperienced users. Very sad indeed, but perhaps it is not the end yet?  Probably it depends on ho long this recession will last.
On the other hand, I do not think the lack of interest of Hy6 is the much discussed 28mm, it is not an everyday lens, perhaps for really working landscape professionals, but these days one can easily get by stitched captures. For interior and architecture, I suppose they don't use Hy6 as their main platform anyway. I think the short fall of Hy6 is the short zooms that photographer needs for 80-90% of their photographic works, something between 45-100mm AF zoom. I think every camera system needs to cover basic before covering specific.
Title: Franke & Heidecke became insovent
Post by: vydalex on March 03, 2009, 07:24:07 am
Unfortunately, it's only the beginning.

Leaf, Sinar, Hasselblad, PhaseOne, Mamiya... Discussion with them at the Photokina in October, they all say (said as an aside)  that in the MF market, there is place for only two....

alex
Title: Franke & Heidecke became insovent
Post by: Leonardo Barreto on March 03, 2009, 07:40:54 am
Quote from: Khun_K
I do not think the lack of interest of Hy6 is the much discussed 28mm, it is not an everyday lens, perhaps for really working landscape professionals, but these days one can easily get by stitched captures.

This is a flaw in logic thinking and to demonstrate it we can use the analogy of an automobile. You use your car mostly in the forward gear, and just some times you engage the R for going in reverse. Would you buy a car that did not include a R gear? or that would come with R gear if you upgrade from 6 cylinder to a yet-to-be announced V8 model? -after you sell your 6 cylinder car and get the new of course--

If all available systems have wide angle capabilities and one has not, and is the new comer, in a matured segment at the end of the transition from film to digital, just before an economic global crash ... then this system is an endangered evolutionary branch. If high end users will consider investing their more and more scarce resources in this system they will have to go beyond the nice looks and adjustable hand grip and consider how long will the system be able to compete under this circumstances. Is the system going to live your business (because a pro photographer is a business entrepreneur too) stranded with a fleet of obsolete lenses and digital backs? What is a "crazy" client wants you to shoot a wide view? can you tell them that you spent $60k and that you cannot even rent a moderate wide angle. What if the crazy client knows that there is a young guy with a 24mp Nikon that can do what you do in 50% of the budget? Would you continue to find the Hy6 as your best professional choice?

I don't have a 28mm, (I do have a 35mm that got 2nd hand and use all the time) but I know that if and whenever I need one I can just go out and rent it, that is the big difference.

I also want to say that Thierry and everybody that promoted this system made a fantastically good job and that I wish that the designers had given them a better concept of a system... I used SINAR view cameras and think that they are the perfect balance of design and construction, so it is nothing personal, just humble observations of a not so young photographer...
Title: Franke & Heidecke became insovent
Post by: Khun_K on March 03, 2009, 07:52:49 am
Quote from: Leonardo Barreto
This is a flaw in logic thinking and to demonstrate it we can use the analogy of an automobile. You use your car mostly in the forward gear, and just some times you engage the R for going in reverse. Would you buy a car that did not include a R gear? or that would come with R gear if you upgrade from 6 cylinder to a yet-to-be announced V8 model? -after you sell your 6 cylinder car and get the new of course--

If all available systems have wide angle capabilities and one has not, and is the new comer, in a matured segment at the end of the transition from film to digital, just before an economic global crash ... then this system is an endangered evolutionary branch. If high end users will consider investing their more and more scarce resources in this system they will have to go beyond the nice looks and adjustable hand grip and consider how long will the system be able to compete under this circumstances. Is the system going to live your business (because a pro photographer is a business entrepreneur too) stranded with a fleet of obsolete lenses and digital backs? What is a "crazy" client wants you to shoot a wide view? can you tell them that you spent $60k and that you cannot even rent a moderate wide angle. What if the crazy client knows that there is a young guy with a 24mp Nikon that can do what you do in 50% of the budget? Would you continue to find the Hy6 as your best professional choice?

I don't have a 28mm, (I do have a 35mm that got 2nd hand and use all the time) but I know that if and whenever I need one I can just go out and rent it, that is the big difference.

I also want to say that Thierry and everybody that promoted this system made a fantastically good job and that I wish that the designers had given them a better concept of a system... I used SINAR view cameras and think that they are the perfect balance of design and construction, so it is nothing personal, just humble observations of a not so young photographer...
Sorry, not wanting to argue, but the gear in a car is a liability feature, not the case with the camera. Anyway, I don't disagree a wide angle lens is important, but there are a lot of everyday photographer don't need such wide angle, but yes, there are also many do. But base on my perspective, a short zoom in the lens range for now is more important. I also use H3D39 and also have the 28mm, judge on how often I use the HC 50-110 and HCD 28, I would say if I were to limited have only one lens, I will go for the 50-110. Perhaps other photographer will do otherwise.
Title: Franke & Heidecke became insovent
Post by: Smallcooter on March 03, 2009, 08:17:35 am
Quote from: paratom
How did you know that I like the system?  

So, you like the system but you don't actually own it, I assume?
Title: Franke & Heidecke became insovent
Post by: ThierryH on March 03, 2009, 08:38:22 am
Smallcooter,

He does:

http://luminous-landscape.com/forum/index....32433&st=20 (http://luminous-landscape.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=32433&st=20)

Post 32

Best regards,
Thierry

Quote from: Smallcooter
So, you like the system but you don't actually own it, I assume?
Title: Franke & Heidecke became insovent
Post by: Chris_Brown on March 03, 2009, 09:34:28 am
And at the other end of the spectrum, Ritz Camera is filing for bankruptcy. (http://www.dpreview.com/news/0902/09022403ritzcameras.asp) Although Ritz is not a reseller of MF gear (they target the average amateur photographer/consumer), I think it's alarming that their two largest creditors are Nikon and Canon, to whom they owe a combined total of $40 million.

Notice the statement, "To put the $26.6 million owed to Nikon Inc. into perspective, it would represent somewhere in the region of 20% of Nikon Inc's expected annual operating income."  
Title: Franke & Heidecke became insovent
Post by: Leonardo Barreto on March 03, 2009, 09:37:04 am
probably the next step for a MF system would be to go in the NO REFLEX BOX concept, but most innovation this days comes from the lower end of the market, and younger brands like Samsung that have no photography history to cling to like Rollei, Leica, and Sinar...

(http://www.cnetfrance.fr/i/edit/2009/pr/03/samsung-nx-apn-hybride.jpg)


Title: Franke & Heidecke became insovent
Post by: paratom on March 03, 2009, 09:57:04 am
I might repeat myself,for some 28mm on MF might be important (and I can clearly see that for some it is a important focal length in MF), for others a nice WLF or a rotating back, or lenses like the 110mm might be more important.
Each system today has some limits, and some strong sides.
By the way owning both a Hy6 and a D3x I dont feel the D3x can do everything the Hy6+Sinar back can do-of course the d3x also does some things the Hy6 (and every toher MF-system) doesnt.
Personally I really appreciate that we have the option if we want a 645-system with more digital SLR handling or a system capable of 6x6 with a more conventional Handling.
Seeing the Hy6-conceot to be a determing factor for the financial situation of F&H is pure speculation.

The G1 is a nice innovation - my wife uses one because its a nice size camera for a reasonable price. I once put a Leica M lens on it but then asked myself why would I want to use the g1 instead of an M8? Probably one of the best EVF but have you looked through it in dim light?
Title: Franke & Heidecke became insovent
Post by: Guy Mancuso on March 03, 2009, 09:57:37 am
Just to add so no one thinks a 28mm is not used. I own one and use it all the time. Like to see those sales figures on Hassy and Mamiya 28mm. There not as small as some would think and I also saved a lot of money from a tech camera but more important it is a fluid solution within your system. Think how many times you used a 21mm in the 35mm world. I used it a ton. Almost every M8 shooter has a CV 12 or 15 mm in there bag. Almost every Nikon and Canon shooter has a 16-35  zoom in there bag. Sorry this is a very popular focal length and all walks of photography.
Title: Franke & Heidecke became insovent
Post by: uaiomex on March 03, 2009, 10:26:17 am
Shocking, terrible sad news. Every bankruptcy can bring words like these but the real loss for every serious photographer in the world is that the possibility of owning a digital medium format camera with a revolving back and waist level finder has ended. No other offer like this on the entire planet. It's like when convertibles disappeared in the Usa few years ago (only worse). I remember being startled then and I'm again today.
I hope for a miracle. The Hy6/Afi  can't disappear. There's nothing like it. It is a product desired and NEEDED.
Eduardo
Title: Franke & Heidecke became insovent
Post by: Kim Bentsen on March 03, 2009, 10:28:24 am
It is in stock here: http://webshop.goecker.dk/ (http://webshop.goecker.dk/)

"Varen er på lager" means "in stock"

PHASE ONE P65+ BACK CLASSIC
DKK 225000 (approx USD 38000)


Quote from: michael
I can't speak for other products but I know that the P65+ is now in a backorder situation for months to come because demand has been so high.

Michael
Title: Franke & Heidecke became insovent
Post by: Leonardo Barreto on March 03, 2009, 11:02:21 am
Not quite true, the Mamiya RZ has revolving back and waist level finder and it is and will be in production.

Quote from: uaiomex
Shocking, terrible sad news. Every bankruptcy can bring words like these but the real loss for every serious photographer in the world is that the possibility of owning a digital medium format camera with a revolving back and waist level finder has ended. No other offer like this on the entire planet. It's like when convertibles disappeared in the Usa few years ago (only worse). I remember being startled then and I'm again today.
I hope for a miracle. The Hy6/Afi  can't disappear. There's nothing like it. It is a product desired and NEEDED.
Eduardo
Title: Franke & Heidecke became insovent
Post by: michael on March 03, 2009, 12:38:25 pm
It is in stock here: http://webshop.goecker.dk/ (http://webshop.goecker.dk/)

That's good news for someone.

But, just because something is in stock at one dealer in one country doesn't mean that it's not on backorder by other dealers in other countries.

Michael
Title: Franke & Heidecke became insovent
Post by: paratom on March 03, 2009, 02:08:14 pm
Quote from: michael
It is in stock here: http://webshop.goecker.dk/ (http://webshop.goecker.dk/)

That's good news for someone.

But, just because something is in stock at one dealer in one country doesn't mean that it's not on backorder by other dealers in other countries.

Michael

I dont think that the situation of F&H means the Hy6-system would dissappear. It could happen in the worst case but there are many other scenarios.
Title: Franke & Heidecke became insovent
Post by: Graham Mitchell on March 03, 2009, 03:43:08 pm
Thanks, EPd, especially for straightening out those who jumped on the Hy6 without knowing the facts and whether it has been commercially successful.
Title: Franke & Heidecke became insovent
Post by: mmurph on March 03, 2009, 03:50:37 pm
Duplicate post ...
Title: Franke & Heidecke became insovent
Post by: mmurph on March 03, 2009, 04:00:00 pm
Quote from: EPd
Filing for bankruptcy can be a way to shake off old debts. That is also why there is so much emphasis on the fact that the latest owner pumped in a lot of money, or the judge might not allow to let the company escape from its debitors.

In the US, there is a filing for liquidation, and a separate filing for reorganization.  It is not at all clear what type of filing this is.

With the equivalent of a "nuclear winter" potentially dogging the global economy, many are finding their apetite for risk much reduced.  Most who are heavily invested in the markets are down 60% or more. No-one wants to "cash out" at the bottom.

Of course, I am in Michigan, so it feels like the end of the world here. Did you see today's auto sales?  Toyota down 40% in Feb, etc.    

Very interesting piece on Fresh Air today (03-03-09) with the former economic director for ther IMF.  Basically, nationalize the banks soon or face a potential "lost decade" like Japan in the 90's. Also a good piece on "This American Life" Feb 28th.


Quote from: Chris_Brown
Notice the statement, "To put the $26.6 million owed to Nikon Inc. into perspective, it would represent somewhere in the region of 20% of Nikon Inc's expected annual operating income."  

Wow, wow, wow!  Gov is sure to step in there too to help, like they did today with Toyota.

Title: Franke & Heidecke became insovent
Post by: BJL on March 03, 2009, 04:09:21 pm
Quote from: mmurph
In the US, there is a filing for liquidation, and a separate filing for reorganization.  It is not at all clear what type of filing this is.
This is "insolvency" and sounds like more than just protection from creditors for the sake of reorganization ("Chapter 11"), from what it says in the PDF statement. The statement seems to be defending principal shareholder Hans R. Schmid from the complaints or legal actions of other shareholders when they lose a lot of money.

So I think the only question of much interest to this forum is whether someone comes out of the liquidation sale with the assets needed to continue making Hy6 bodies and the lenses for them. I hope so, but have for a long time been convinced that there is not room for three separate MF SLR systems in the digital era and for whatever reasons, Hy6 seems to be in third place. The Contax 645 system was wonderful too, from all reports.

Title: Franke & Heidecke became insovent
Post by: hubell on March 03, 2009, 04:17:39 pm
Quote from: michael
It is in stock here: http://webshop.goecker.dk/ (http://webshop.goecker.dk/)

That's good news for someone.

But, just because something is in stock at one dealer in one country doesn't mean that it's not on backorder by other dealers in other countries.

Michael

There may be many reasons for backorders, and strong demand is only one possibility. Another possibility is a very slow ramp-up in production for quality control reasons. Another possibility is that the product is not ready to ship, but there are some orders in the pipeline. The P65 would seem to fall into the latter category as backs with the Sensor Plus technology still are not available for delivery.
Short answer is no one outside Phase really knows the true facts about the extent of the backorder situation, or even if there really is one, and they won't talk hard numbers on or off the record. I personally find it very hard to believe that, with the devastating collapse of the world economy that we are experiencing, large numbers of working photographers are lining up to spend $40,000 to buy into a P65. There are a few things that are recession proof, like non-elective surgery, but not $40k MF digital backs.
Title: Franke & Heidecke became insovent
Post by: Leonardo Barreto on March 03, 2009, 04:45:54 pm
It is true, the Hy6 is not dead yet, after all Mamiya came back, but the odds are getting a bit harder, for example: they are letting go of assets like Thierry. What message is that giving potential adopters? Even if they continue production, they have to develop new lenses like the 35mm -and the famous 28mm-.

If you check on houses that rent high end equipment in the US you find out that very few have Hy6 systems and even Leaf backs are not the standard work horse. Must of the Hasselblad systems are H2, and the rest is Phase One backs on H2 and Mamiya Bodies.

Probably in the near future rental houses will put up front all the new Nikon Canon twentysomething cameras.

At the end of last year Leaf came up with a "new system" that was basically a Leaf back and a Mamiya body. This system (DL28) is featured prominently at Mamiya's website. Why would they make this promotional effort exactly when they are coming out with their brand new system? Do they know something we don't ?

(http://www.mamiya.com/upload/products/small/dl28_header.jpg)



Quote from: EPd
Heinrich (and all): the situation at F&H is not related to the Hy6. On the contrary: had they not had this camera they would have been in this desperate situation much earlier! "Skeletons in the attick" is a good way of describing what happened. I am going to find out more.

As for the speculation about Jenoptik buying the Hy6: they already own it (and have done so from the beginning as is well documented in this forum). Jenoptik sells cameras to Leaf, not F&H. The big question now is: will anybody be able to manufacture Hy6 and lenses if F&H cannot do so anylonger. I am hoping for a reincarnation of the company, as we have seen many times before. Filing for bankruptcy can be a way to shake off old debts. That is also why there is so much emphasis on the fact that the latest owner pumped in a lot of money, or the judge might not allow to let the company escape from its debitors. We'll need to wait and see how this is all going to evolve.

Only recently F&H had been hiring more people to be able to produce the contractual Hy6 cameras and lenses for Jenoptik. Those who see this insolvency as a chance to hammer on the Hy6 as a failing design are simply ill informed and probably need to get some satisfaction out of their personal negative opinion about the camera.
Title: Franke & Heidecke became insovent
Post by: Guy Mancuso on March 03, 2009, 04:55:35 pm
Quote from: hcubell
There may be many reasons for backorders, and strong demand is only one possibility. Another possibility is a very slow ramp-up in production for quality control reasons. Another possibility is that the product is not ready to ship, but there are some orders in the pipeline. The P65 would seem to fall into the latter category as backs with the Sensor Plus technology still are not available for delivery.
Short answer is no one outside Phase really knows the true facts about the extent of the backorder situation, or even if there really is one, and they won't talk hard numbers on or off the record. I personally find it very hard to believe that, with the devastating collapse of the world economy that we are experiencing, large numbers of working photographers are lining up to spend $40,000 to buy into a P65. There are a few things that are recession proof, like non-elective surgery, but not $40k MF digital backs.


Most are not and many are upgrading from the P45 plus . But yes they are shipping


This is a new sensor do you honestly think this is the only product they are going to use with it.
Title: Franke & Heidecke became insovent
Post by: rainer_v on March 03, 2009, 05:29:16 pm
Quote from: hcubell
I personally find it very hard to believe that, with the devastating collapse of the world economy that we are experiencing, large numbers of working photographers are lining up to spend $40,000 to buy into a P65. There are a few things that are recession proof, like non-elective surgery, but not $40k MF digital backs.
i find this hard to believe too.
maybe there are more working dentists out than photographers .... some big seller of mf systems told me recently that its hard to believe how many amateurs buy the new 50mp hassy, could be similar with the p65.
Title: Franke & Heidecke became insovent
Post by: JDG on March 03, 2009, 05:35:27 pm
Quote from: Leonardo Barreto
It is true, the Hy6 is not dead yet, after all Mamiya came back, but the odds are getting a bit harder, for example: they are letting go of assets like Thierry. What message is that giving potential adopters? Even if they continue production, they have to develop new lenses like the 35mm -and the famous 28mm-.

If you check on houses that rent high end equipment in the US you find out that very few have Hy6 systems and even Leaf backs are not the standard work horse. Must of the Hasselblad systems are H2, and the rest is Phase One backs on H2 and Mamiya Bodies.

Probably in the near future rental houses will put up front all the new Nikon Canon twentysomething cameras.

At the end of last year Leaf came up with a "new system" that was basically a Leaf back and a Mamiya body. This system (DL28) is featured prominently at Mamiya's website. Why would they make this promotional effort exactly when they are coming out with their brand new system? Do they know something we don't ?

(http://www.mamiya.com/upload/products/small/dl28_header.jpg)

The DL-28 is a creation of the MAC group.  They are the US distributor of both Mamiya and Leaf (as well as Tenba and Sekonic and Profoto).  It is a sales bundle and nothing more.
Title: Franke & Heidecke became insovent
Post by: michael on March 03, 2009, 07:16:16 pm
I find the reference to "dentists" offensive. The inference is that these are wealthy individuals who buy expensive toys and who otherwise have no talent or purpose.

My experience as a teacher and as someone that leads field workshops which are often attended by these wealthy individuals is that a great many of them (not all, but most) are very fine photographers. Several regularly sell their work, have gallery shows, and strong reputations.

Having money and, yes, being a dentist, is not mutually exclusive with talent. In fact there are as many wealthy people with 5D MKII's, and D3x's I assure you.

Michael
Title: Franke & Heidecke became insovent
Post by: rethmeier on March 03, 2009, 07:26:55 pm
Michael,
I think Rainers quote should be taken with a grain of salt,however there is a certain truth that a lot of these high end systems are bought by non-pros.

Wether they are good photographers is irrelevant.

For instance I sold my Hy6 kit to a non pro.

Obviously a keen amateur with the cash in hand.

I can tell that right now not many pros are gearing up to more MP cameras.

In your case that you are upgrading is understandable as you have to set the standard and if I was in your shoes,I would have done exactly the same.

Regards,

Willem.
Title: Franke & Heidecke became insovent
Post by: Bill VN on March 03, 2009, 07:33:13 pm
Quote from: Leonardo Barreto
 I'm thinking to myself "I hope such tests of Mamiya lens inferiority do not exist/materialize". So I should say that probably Rollei/Schneider and all other difficult to spell lens brands are good and some sharper than the Mamiyas (not including the east European probably, but not necessarily) but that is not the point. We are moving in to the future and the ones that survive are not showing scrupulous, for example: Hasselblad. They closed their system and used their 28mm -it shows how important a 28mm is- in order to get some more chips and stay at the table longer. Mamiya went almost dead with their ZD experiment. PhaseOne got in bed with Mamiya and gave its name to off springs that resemble Mamiya 100%...

Probably the next in trouble is SINAR, and Leaf may go down since the two used their turn on a bad hand of cards, they spent money and time on a camera platform when camera platforms where looking for digital backs... How many SINAR backs are going to go of shelves if there is no Hy6? none go to Hasselblad platform since it si closed. So that lives Mamiya. Same with Leaf.

For the rental houses two good brands are all they need, now they have 3 ... who they feel is the less "exiting" system is the key to what happens next...

Leaf is a unit of Kodak, so it isn't going anywhere. A logical buyer of F&H would probably be Jos. Schneider Optische Werke GmbH, since they produce many lenses for the Rollei system and, from many published tests, build the best digital lenses. LINOS, the manufacturer of Rodenstock lenses, might be another possible match.
Title: Franke & Heidecke became insovent
Post by: lisa_r on March 03, 2009, 08:26:11 pm
Quote from: Guy Mancuso
Most are not and many are upgrading from the P45 plus . But yes they are shipping

I was at Digital Transitions today, and they have a bunch of the big guys on back order - BUT they have shipped exactly ZERO. They are back ordered because they have not gotten any from Phase.
Title: Franke & Heidecke became insovent
Post by: Steve Hendrix on March 03, 2009, 08:35:55 pm
Quote from: lisa_r
I was at Digital Transitions today, and they have a bunch of the big guys on back order - BUT they have shipped exactly ZERO. They are back ordered because they have not gotten any from Phase.

I find that hard to believe, though I don't doubt what you are saying Lisa.  

Digital Transitions (NY branch) is not my dealer, but I know that dealers I have responsibility for have been shipped P65+ units for their customers, though they still have some on backorder.


Steve Hendrix
Phase One
Title: Franke & Heidecke became insovent
Post by: PeterA on March 03, 2009, 09:35:44 pm
Quote from: michael
I find the reference to "dentists" offensive. The inference is that these are wealthy individuals who buy expensive toys and who otherwise have no talent or purpose.

My experience as a teacher and as someone that leads field workshops which are often attended by these wealthy individuals is that a great many of them (not all, but most) are very fine photographers. Several regularly sell their work, have gallery shows, and strong reputations.

Having money and, yes, being a dentist, is not mutually exclusive with talent. In fact there are as many wealthy people with 5D MKII's, and D3x's I assure you.

Michael

Michael - your LL business strategy/model is a perfect model for camera companies in MF land to look at and learn from. The great majority of users are in it for the FUN. The so called 'pro market' is a very tiny percentage of the real market. One of Phase One's competitive advantages has been the fact that many of its dealer's understanding that the well heeled buyer is not a bad investment proposition. Compared to the typical working pro - the well heeled buyer is lower cost to service and is more likely to pay up - because it is about fun. Your own site and sales benefits from tapping into peopel's predisposiiton to having FUN. you dont shove an elitist attitude down people's throats.

If one looks at the economics of the game - leaving aside current economic turmoil - the people who actually 'buy' MF capability are not working pros but the working pro client base and their expectaitons.  It seems that the client is spending less and asking for more - and the working pro has tried to shove this economic structural dynamic back to the manufacturers. the manufacturers in focussing too much on tiny ( not even small) businesses have dug a hole for themselves...too funny if it wasnt so sad. How many times have some of thre best shooters on here remarkered tha their clients cant see a difference between a MF back and a DSLR? What else is there to knwo for that end of the market?

btw - looking through most posted stuff in this forum - it seems that  Pro shooting for mazines etc has become a side line to illustrators. A working photographer has to understand where all this is leading..a MF manufacturer must understand that their ability to help a working pro really differentiate themselves through using their hardware and software - is pretty much  ..gone.

Meanwhile your enthusiast sees a digi back much like they see film. Their preferences are for ease of use and size of chip. Give me a 6x6 chip or move towards that and I will pay ( again) - give me another 10 megapixels - well thats a harder sell that would largely be about bragging rights. The well heeled dude is keeping powder dry for a serious paradigm shift and bragging rights associated with that - now what colour might that be? -

The manufacturer's failure to understand the changing landscape and to continue to compete on ever narrower grounds in an ever declining end user market is a self induced death sentence.
Title: Franke & Heidecke became insovent
Post by: rethmeier on March 03, 2009, 11:26:41 pm
Peter A,
I couldn't have said it any better!
Cheers,
Willem.
Title: Franke & Heidecke became insovent
Post by: rainer_v on March 04, 2009, 02:45:54 am
Quote from: michael
I find the reference to "dentists" offensive. The inference is that these are wealthy individuals who buy expensive toys and who otherwise have no talent or purpose.

My experience as a teacher and as someone that leads field workshops which are often attended by these wealthy individuals is that a great many of them (not all, but most) are very fine photographers. Several regularly sell their work, have gallery shows, and strong reputations.

Having money and, yes, being a dentist, is not mutually exclusive with talent. In fact there are as many wealthy people with 5D MKII's, and D3x's I assure you.

Michael
yes you are right. although its not my intent to blame people for having money and having hobbies.
more i tried  be little bit ironic .....
Title: Franke & Heidecke became insovent
Post by: michael on March 04, 2009, 04:40:33 am
Peter, you are right to a very large extent.

But, I think if you talk to the major medium format camera and back companies you'd find that pros still make up some 70% of their market. (And some even have fun doing what they do, come on my trips and read this forum).

There are a great many who shoot fashion, architecture and product who in days past used large format and today use high-end digital. Of course the economic slump has knocked the pins out from under everyone, but there continue to be commercial photographers who have the means and the need to buy $30-$40,000 systems.

Whether there are enough to keep the smaller companies in business on an ongoing basis is dubious though.

Regretably I think that within 6 months we'll be down to just two companies in this market segment.

Michael

Title: Franke & Heidecke became insovent
Post by: mcfoto on March 04, 2009, 06:48:41 am
Quote from: michael
Peter, you are right to a very large extent.

But, I think if you talk to the major medium format camera and back companies you'd find that pros still make up some 70% of their market. (And some even have fun doing what they do, come on my trips and read this forum).

There are a great many who shoot fashion, architecture and product who in days past used large format and today use high-end digital. Of course the economic slump has knocked the pins out from under everyone, but there continue to be commercial photographers who have the means and the need to buy $30-$40,000 systems.

Whether there are enough to keep the smaller companies in business on an ongoing basis is dubious though.

Regretably I think that within 6 months we'll be down to just two companies in this market segment.

Michael

Hi Micheal
When you say two companies in MFD, do you mean Hasselblad & Phase/Mamiya? Personally I am surprised at the speed at which this is happening, then I look at the drop of car sales in the US!
Denis

Title: Franke & Heidecke became insovent
Post by: thom on March 04, 2009, 07:16:35 am
Interesting reading about Franke & Heidecke GmbH (in German):

http://www.photoscala.de/Artikel/Sic-transit-gloria-mundi-0 (http://www.photoscala.de/Artikel/Sic-transit-gloria-mundi-0)

http://translate.google.com/translate?prev...history_state0= (http://translate.google.com/translate?prev=_t&hl=de&ie=UTF-8&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.photoscala.de%2FArtikel%2FSic-transit-gloria-mundi-0&sl=de&tl=en&history_state0=)

Short version: the R&D of Hy6 was financed by Jenoptik, they "own" the design (and sell the camera to Leaf/Kodak), the buildings ar rented, the machines are leased, even the brand "Rolleiflex" is owned by a company called "Rollei GmbH".

So, "only" the manufacturing is done by Franke & Heidecke GmbH. And this can be done elsewhere, by somebody else. Of course, it's not that simple. But it seems, that there are no black clouds over the Hy6, only grey ones...
And, of course, a disaster for the employees and a loss for germany's economy.

thom

(and sorry for my english...)
Title: Franke & Heidecke became insovent
Post by: csp on March 04, 2009, 08:06:27 am
Quote from: thom
Interesting reading about Franke & Heidecke GmbH (in German):

http://www.photoscala.de/Artikel/Sic-transit-gloria-mundi-0 (http://www.photoscala.de/Artikel/Sic-transit-gloria-mundi-0)

http://translate.google.com/translate?prev...history_state0= (http://translate.google.com/translate?prev=_t&hl=de&ie=UTF-8&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.photoscala.de%2FArtikel%2FSic-transit-gloria-mundi-0&sl=de&tl=en&history_state0=)

Short version: the R&D of Hy6 was financed by Jenoptik, they "own" the design (and sell the camera to Leaf/Kodak), the buildings ar rented, the machines are leased, even the brand "Rolleiflex" is owned by a company called "Rollei GmbH".

So, "only" the manufacturing is done by Franke & Heidecke GmbH. And this can be done elsewhere, by somebody else. Of course, it's not that simple. But it seems, that there are no black clouds over the Hy6, only grey ones...
And, of course, a disaster for the employees and a loss for germany's economy.

thom

(and sorry for my english...)


... and the reason for the troubles is they sold much less units as projected !  so what makes you think this will change ?  the whole hy6 is in my view a management disaster caused by panic and missed market understanding . they should have studied why rollei failed before they reanimated this camera.  even in film days and even in germany rollei was an outsider with an extreme small user base. this did not come without a reason.  it also does not make senses to me that leaf and sinar / jenoptik  would allow this negative pr and the lost of costumer confidence if they have plans to continue the production.   backs are only a tiny fraction of the jenoptik product portfolio and i would not be surprised to read an announcement in the  weeks ahead  that they will stop their commitment in this field.
Title: Franke & Heidecke became insovent
Post by: Graham Mitchell on March 04, 2009, 08:10:42 am
Quote from: csp
... and the reason for the troubles is they sold much less units as projected !

Sigh... I guess you didn't read the press release.
Title: Franke & Heidecke became insovent
Post by: ThierryH on March 04, 2009, 08:15:42 am
I would stop to speculate and wait until things are clear, if ever. It amazes me how some can be such good predictors and how easy in their eyes such a project would be to lead it to success with the right decisions.

Best regards,
Thierry

Quote from: csp
... and the reason for the troubles is they sold much less units as projected !
Title: Franke & Heidecke became insovent
Post by: csp on March 04, 2009, 08:26:27 am
Quote from: foto-z
Sigh... I guess you didn't read the press release.


maybe you should polish your german ;-)
Title: Franke & Heidecke became insovent
Post by: heinrichvoelkel on March 04, 2009, 08:59:30 am
Quote from: EPd
Heinrich (and all): the situation at F&H.... the camera.

Thanks EPd. as along time Rollei user, who is quite happy with the performance of my kit, it would be a loss have them go away.

I did read the article on photo scala and they say, the units sold are way below the expectations.  

I like the concept of the HY6, did some test drives and thought of buying it in the long run. But at the moment I just feel not very certain about it anymore with the news regarding F&H and the lay offs at Sinar....?!
Title: Franke & Heidecke became insovent
Post by: Graham Mitchell on March 04, 2009, 09:17:52 am
Quote from: csp
maybe you should polish your german ;-)

"Als zuletzt noch - dem neuen Gesellschafter zum Zeitpunkt der Übernahme nicht bekannte - finanzielle und andere Altlasten zutage traten, wurde klar, dass eine Sanierung selbst unter Einsatz weiterer Millionenbeträge nicht zu schaffen sein würde."

The Hy6 is not even mentioned in that article, so I don't know where people are getting the information that the Hy6 didn't sell, or is there another article?
Title: Franke & Heidecke became insovent
Post by: heinrichvoelkel on March 04, 2009, 09:57:37 am
Quote from: foto-z
"Als zuletzt noch - dem neuen Gesellschafter zum Zeitpunkt der Übernahme nicht bekannte - finanzielle und andere Altlasten zutage traten, wurde klar, dass eine Sanierung selbst unter Einsatz weiterer Millionenbeträge nicht zu schaffen sein würde."

The Hy6 is not even mentioned in that article, so I don't know where people are getting the information that the Hy6 didn't sell, or is there another article?

http://www.photoscala.de/Artikel/Sic-transit-gloria-mundi-0 (http://www.photoscala.de/Artikel/Sic-transit-gloria-mundi-0)
Title: Franke & Heidecke became insovent
Post by: Leonardo Barreto on March 04, 2009, 10:11:37 am
foto-z

So what you say is that the Hy6 did sell? Interesting. Can you elaborate please.

Quote from: foto-z
"Als zuletzt noch - dem neuen Gesellschafter zum Zeitpunkt der Übernahme nicht bekannte - finanzielle und andere Altlasten zutage traten, wurde klar, dass eine Sanierung selbst unter Einsatz weiterer Millionenbeträge nicht zu schaffen sein würde."

The Hy6 is not even mentioned in that article, so I don't know where people are getting the information that the Hy6 didn't sell, or is there another article?
Title: Franke & Heidecke became insovent
Post by: Carsten W on March 04, 2009, 10:25:18 am
Graham, I suppose this was the sentence referred to:

"Der Auftragsbestand war gut, es gab allerdings Fertigungsengpässe und weniger Nachfrage von Seiten Jenoptiks (bzw. deren Vertragspartnern Sinar und Leaf) als erwartet."

It is not clear exactly what it means, but it appears that it might say that Leaf and Sinar ordered fewer Hy6s than expected. But the sentence could also be referring to lenses. There is no clear indication either way. I suppose time will show more clearly what went wrong.
Title: Franke & Heidecke became insovent
Post by: Graham Mitchell on March 04, 2009, 10:37:49 am
Quote from: Leonardo Barreto
foto-z

So what you say is that the Hy6 did sell? Interesting. Can you elaborate please.

I want to distinguish between fact and rumour, that's all. We have EPd saying that F&H put on more staff recently to handle Hy6 production, and he usually gets it right with respect to F&H: http://luminous-landscape.com/forum/index....st&p=264427 (http://luminous-landscape.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=32568&view=findpost&p=264427)

So is there an official statement to the contrary?
Title: Franke & Heidecke became insovent
Post by: Leonardo Barreto on March 04, 2009, 10:53:28 am
What FOTO-Z implies is that there is no relation between the sales performance of the Hy6 system and its mother company (or the company that manufactures and owns the system design) ultimate bankruptcy.

At this moment we don't know if the system sold well or underperformed since there are no available sales numbers.

In absence of this data we can only scan the "field" where this system would be selling/or not selling. I think that it would be showing here in what it probably is the most pro of all MF forums, and in the rental establishments that cater to the pros that demand the best and latest.

I went looking yesterday on line and found only one place where they rent the system (out of about 6 or 7 in the USA). The predominant backs are PhaseOne and platforms Hasselblad H2 and Mamiya 645....

I don't think that an official press release will specifically would say that "yes, we are defaulting because our star system outperformed", on the other side, if sales where grate they should be saying it so that the product would have a better chance to ever come back to life, no?

   
Title: Franke & Heidecke became insovent
Post by: hubell on March 04, 2009, 11:27:58 am
Quote from: foto-z
I want to distinguish between fact and rumour, that's all. We have EPd saying that F&H put on more staff recently to handle Hy6 production, and he usually gets it right with respect to F&H: http://luminous-landscape.com/forum/index....st&p=264427 (http://luminous-landscape.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=32568&view=findpost&p=264427)

So is there an official statement to the contrary?

The actual sales numbers in the past are really irrelevant at this point. The F&H announcement will, as a practical matter, likely destroy the prospects of future sales, even if Sinar/Leaf were to take over the manufacturing operations of F&H for the Hy6. Under the best of circumstances(like a vibrant economy), consumer confidence is a fragile thing. With a camera/back/lens system costing upwards of $50k and in the midst of a severe recession, I think the Hy6 would be a very tough sale to make going forward.
Title: Franke & Heidecke became insovent
Post by: Guy Mancuso on March 04, 2009, 11:34:44 am
I just don't think any company right now would be taking this risk on. Very limited market and given the recession to survive prices have to come down a lot to get it going again and instill confidence it will survive later on. Too me it seems not a smart purchase. The sales numbers given they where decent let's say was still not enough to keep it afloat , how would continuing with it help that out with what is going on in the world. Just don't see it as a viable purchase for anyone.
Title: Franke & Heidecke became insovent
Post by: EricWHiss on March 04, 2009, 11:49:57 am
I wonder how many more units Leaf and Sinar would have sold if they could have offered the Rolleiflex all black model?     I love my 6008 AF, and while everyone has their favorites, I also think the schneider glass is just amazing.   I use a lot of the features the camera has to offer such as the fast 1/1000 sync and the remote shutter adapter.  I don't know what other 6x6 systems have the same features.  

Title: Franke & Heidecke became insovent
Post by: micmatthews on March 04, 2009, 12:06:22 pm
Quote from: lisa_r
I was at Digital Transitions today, and they have a bunch of the big guys on back order - BUT they have shipped exactly ZERO. They are back ordered because they have not gotten any from Phase.


The version of the Phase One P65+ shipping today is not the final Sensor+ version of the back. Digital Transitions has chosen not ship the first version to their client because they will need to be upgraded to the final version. When the upgrade takes place the client will then be without a system for a couple of weeks. The final version of the P65+ with sensor + technology should be shipping in the next couple of weeks.
Title: Franke & Heidecke became insovent
Post by: Leonardo Barreto on March 04, 2009, 12:14:22 pm
...."they could have offered the Rolleiflex all black model?".... forget about that, it was a digital back platform closed to the leading brand that if I am not mistaken -- If I am I should get flamed, (or even if I am not   -- is PhaseOne. Since there are no Hasselblad backs, that would be living out 50% or more of "clients". But yes, it a nice design, and the Afi comes in all black with a clever interior rotating sensor, interchangeable viewfinders and other nice features ...
Title: Franke & Heidecke became insovent
Post by: csp on March 04, 2009, 12:32:39 pm
Quote from: hcubell
The actual sales numbers in the past are really irrelevant at this point. The F&H announcement will, as a practical matter, likely destroy the prospects of future sales, even if Sinar/Leaf were to take over the manufacturing operations of F&H for the Hy6. Under the best of circumstances(like a vibrant economy), consumer confidence is a fragile thing. With a camera/back/lens system costing upwards of $50k and in the midst of a severe recession, I think the Hy6 would be a very tough sale to make going forward.


you see it  right and the bankruptcy of F&H is a perfect excuse for sinar and leaf  to close the so "successful" Hy6 project.
Title: Franke & Heidecke became insovent
Post by: EricWHiss on March 04, 2009, 12:56:36 pm
Quote from: Leonardo Barreto
...."they could have offered the Rolleiflex all black model?".... forget about that, it was a digital back platform closed to the leading brand that if I am not mistaken -- If I am I should get flamed, (or even if I am not   -- is PhaseOne. Since there are no Hasselblad backs, that would be living out 50% or more of "clients". But yes, it a nice design, and the Afi comes in all black with a clever interior rotating sensor, interchangeable viewfinders and other nice features ...

Leonardo - I was mostly kidding about the all black.  The real reason why I wasn't compelled to upgrade my 6008 AF/ Phase p20  to the Hy6 or AFi was that I had become familiar with the Phase back and it was doing the job for me on most occasions.  I guess I was just hoping that Phase would find a way or interest to put their backs on the Hy6, although the new AFi-10 looks great as does the Sinar e65r that does the DNG in camera and who knows maybe I would have chosen one of them.  Hopefully I'll still have that option!
Title: Franke & Heidecke became insovent
Post by: ThierryH on March 04, 2009, 07:04:24 pm
With all due respect: there is nowhere mention of bankruptcy. What the announcement says is F&H has filled in for "insolvency". That is different and opens first the door for a state appointed consultant and controller to look at and decide which creditors will be paid. That can go a certain period of time, usually months. At the same time solutions for the future are looked at and final decisions are only taken after that period of time.

Best regards,
Thierry

Quote from: csp
you see it  right and the bankruptcy of F&H is a perfect excuse for sinar and leaf  to close the so "successful" Hy6 project.
Title: Franke & Heidecke became insovent
Post by: H1/A75 Guy on March 04, 2009, 07:17:38 pm
Quote from: thom
Short version: the R&D of Hy6 was financed by Jenoptik, they "own" the design (and sell the camera to Leaf/Kodak), the buildings ar rented, the machines are leased, even the brand "Rolleiflex" is owned by a company called "Rollei GmbH".

So, "only" the manufacturing is done by Franke & Heidecke GmbH. And this can be done elsewhere, by somebody else. Of course, it's not that simple. But it seems, that there are no black clouds over the Hy6, only grey ones...
And, of course, a disaster for the employees and a loss for germany's economy.

Thank you. Best bet is that Jenoptik will step up and manufacture the Hy6/AFi. If not, it may not be uncommon in Germany for a company that goes into insolvency to be offered a state funded bail-out for 90 days. As a more than delighted owner of an AFi II 7, I'm not rushing to buy a spare AFi body just yet.

David
Title: Franke & Heidecke became insovent
Post by: csp on March 05, 2009, 02:51:36 am
Quote from: ThierryH
With all due respect: there is nowhere mention of bankruptcy. What the announcement says is F&H has filled in for "insolvency". That is different and opens first the door for a state appointed consultant and controller to look at and decide which creditors will be paid. That can go a certain period of time, usually months. At the same time solutions for the future are looked at and final decisions are only taken after that period of time.

Best regards,
Thierry

"....state appointed consultant"  with respect this is plain nonsense.  what in germany is called insolvenz is konkurs in switzerland = bankruptcy

"Bankruptcy is a legally declared inability or impairment of ability of an individual or organization to pay its creditors. Creditors may file a bankruptcy petition against a debtor ("involuntary bankruptcy") in an effort to recoup a portion of what they are owed or initiate a restructuring. In the majority of cases, however, bankruptcy is initiated by the debtor (a "voluntary bankruptcy" that is filed by the bankrupt individual or organization) "

from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bankruptcy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bankruptcy).
Title: Franke & Heidecke became insovent
Post by: Martin Kristiansen on March 05, 2009, 03:27:38 am
The below text is part of a mail I received this morning from my local Leaf supplier. He sent it on to me and said I may post it on this forum.

"Regardless of what you might have heard,  the F&H manufacturing plant is operating normally and will  continue to operate while F&H works with their creditors to  reach agreement on the best way forward. While this process advances, production of Leaf AFi parts and components continues. To further ensure that F&H continues  operating efficiently, an interim  administrator is being appointed to evaluate the F&H business. What this means is  that we will continue delivering Leaf AFi-II camera systems, lenses and  accessories.
 
 F&H investors have recently made  a lot of progress in modernizing their  production facilities and processes. We have recently seen great improvements made in a  very short time. These improvements add to the real value of F&H and  contribute to the likelihood of creating a solution that will support the  factory’s future.

In parallel to  the actions being taken by F&H, Leaf is investigating all possible  opportunities to ensure that Leaf can achieve its goals and help you to achieve yours. This effort includes urgent work with  Jenoptik, F&H, our sales managers and dealers  worldwide."


Martin
Title: Franke & Heidecke became insovent
Post by: ThierryH on March 05, 2009, 05:03:17 am
Quote from: csp
"....state appointed consultant"  with respect this is plain nonsense.  what in germany is called insolvenz is konkurs in switzerland = bankruptcy
from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bankruptcy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bankruptcy).

csp, this for your information, and not from myself:

" ... an interim administrator is being appointed to evaluate the F&H business". See post above and information published by Martin.

Then, if you wish to quote Wikipedia, then please quote it until the end, here in German:

"... Der Sinn der Insolvenz und des dann folgenden Insolvenz-Verfahrens ist es, entweder die Zahlungsfähigkeit wieder herzustellen, oder die Situation geordnet abzuwickeln (bei Unternehmen durch Auflösung, bei Einzelpersonen letztlich durch Restschuldbefreiung). Nach Abschluss des Insolvenzverfahrens verfallen dann in der Regel alle noch unbefriedigten Ansprüche der Gläubiger gegenüber dem Schuldner".

And that is EXACTLY what I said, nothing else. You should be knowing that I am checking this before posting something as serious as that.

or in English, the Wikipedia defintion of "Insolvency":

"Insolvency is not a synonym for bankruptcy, which is a determination of insolvency made by a court of law with resulting legal orders intended to resolve the insolvency".

There is/are NO legal order(s) at this stage, simply an appointed administrator.

and then the definition of "bankruptcy":

"Bankruptcy is a legally declared inability or impairment of ability of an individual or organization to pay its creditors".

That is quite different to the current situation. Both can lead to the same result, but bankruptcy is decided in a legal way, ONLY, not by the company, and usually after a so-called "insolvency period".

Thanks and best regards,
Thierry
Title: Franke & Heidecke became insovent
Post by: csp on March 05, 2009, 05:48:38 am
Quote from: ThierryH
csp, this for your information, and not from myself:

" ... an interim administrator is being appointed to evaluate the F&H business". See post above and information published by Martin.

Then, if you wish to quote Wikipedia, then please quote it until the end, here in German:

"... Der Sinn der Insolvenz und des dann folgenden Insolvenz-Verfahrens ist es, entweder die Zahlungsfähigkeit wieder herzustellen, oder die Situation geordnet abzuwickeln (bei Unternehmen durch Auflösung, bei Einzelpersonen letztlich durch Restschuldbefreiung). Nach Abschluss des Insolvenzverfahrens verfallen dann in der Regel alle noch unbefriedigten Ansprüche der Gläubiger gegenüber dem Schuldner".

And that is EXACTLY what I said, nothing else. You should be knowing that I am checking this before posting something as serious as that.

or in English, the Wikipedia defintion of "Insolvency":

"Insolvency is not a synonym for bankruptcy, which is a determination of insolvency made by a court of law with resulting legal orders intended to resolve the insolvency".

There is/are NO legal order(s) at this stage, simply an appointed administrator.

and then the definition of "bankruptcy":

"Bankruptcy is a legally declared inability or impairment of ability of an individual or organization to pay its creditors".

That is quite different to the current situation. Both can lead to the same result, but bankruptcy is decided in a legal way, ONLY, not by the company, and usually after a so-called "insolvency period".

Thanks and best regards,
Thierry



i give up you are also an expert  in business law , call it whatever your interests fits.
Title: Franke & Heidecke became insovent
Post by: Martin Kristiansen on March 05, 2009, 05:51:36 am
I am personally very saddened by the news of F & H getting into difficulties. It is disturbing for the employees, investors, resellers and end users of the equipment. I have used Leaf for 6 years and the service I have received has been of a very high standard. I am very busy at the moment and the AFI has performed tirelessly for over a year without a single hitch. I love the feel of the camera and my clients are happy with the quality.

We get a lot of traffic on this part of the forum about how medium format is hopeless and overpriced and destined to disappear. Well in my world this would be a disaster. I stopped using dslr in my studio for everything except catalog work where we shoot hundreds of products destined for smaller than A6. With MF we are not on the edge when requested to shoot for point of sale posters and such as we found ourselves when shooting DSLR. I dont have to worry about the lenses as I did when shooting DSLR. I just do not understand what I see as an undercurrent of happiness over the difficulties MF finds itself in. We have seen loads of camera manufactures disappear recently, a lot of them in the 35mm market. Why be happy over it?

If you dont like MF or cant afford it or whatever then just dont buy it. There is more information on this section of the forum about how we dont need MF than there is useful info on how to use them efectivly.

Anyway it is always sad when people lose there jobs and for all sorts of reasons I hope this issue with F&H is resolved in a positive way.
Title: Franke & Heidecke became insovent
Post by: eronald on March 05, 2009, 06:04:49 am
Quote from: Leonardo Barreto
...."they could have offered the Rolleiflex all black model?".... forget about that, it was a digital back platform closed to the leading brand that if I am not mistaken -- If I am I should get flamed, (or even if I am not   -- is PhaseOne. Since there are no Hasselblad backs, that would be living out 50% or more of "clients". But yes, it a nice design, and the Afi comes in all black with a clever interior rotating sensor, interchangeable viewfinders and other nice features ...

Yes, I would agree that closing the system with respect to Phase customers killed it. I would bet that at least 50% of existing Phase customers would have preferred Schneider glass to Mamiya glass if left a choice.

Edmund
Title: Franke & Heidecke became insovent
Post by: mcfoto on March 05, 2009, 06:13:41 am
Hi
Back in April 2006 we did a promotion for the ZD camera. As we all know Mamiya was sold to another company in April 2006. Gay & I were at the PMA show in Sydney on May 1st/2006 & the word on the floor was Mamiya was going out of business. After wards when I talked to the agent for Mamiya he said that news basicly killed the sales for the ZD. Sure maybe the ZD wasn't the best but word on the street was not good.
 This is now 2009 in not the best of economic times, hell the US car market dropped about 40% year to year. Now the MFD sector has not been strong for a few years...... Now we hear this news about the Hy6.......does this instill  confidence in the market? I don't think so! When we shoot MFD our choice is Leaf. These are very interesting times!
Denis
Title: Franke & Heidecke became insovent
Post by: PeterA on March 05, 2009, 06:25:55 am
Quote from: michael
Peter, you are right to a very large extent.

But, I think if you talk to the major medium format camera and back companies you'd find that pros still make up some 70% of their market. (And some even have fun doing what they do, come on my trips and read this forum).

There are a great many who shoot fashion, architecture and product who in days past used large format and today use high-end digital. Of course the economic slump has knocked the pins out from under everyone, but there continue to be commercial photographers who have the means and the need to buy $30-$40,000 systems.

Whether there are enough to keep the smaller companies in business on an ongoing basis is dubious though.

Regretably I think that within 6 months we'll be down to just two companies in this market segment.

Michael

Michael, there is ever only one certainty - change. MF set the benchmark for many years..it is now playing pretty much the end game now in terms of losing much of its once competitive advantage in the pro sector..
personally I hate seeing the decline of the boutique specialist small shop manufacturer - usually quality goes down with their exits..certainly choice goes out th window and often development as well..I hoping that there will be three left for at least the next few years..great site Michael.

Pete
Title: Franke & Heidecke became insovent
Post by: ThierryH on March 05, 2009, 06:30:09 am
Not at all my interests, but for the sake of clarity of information.

Best regards,
Thierry

Quote from: csp
i give up you are also an expert  in business law , call it whatever your interests fits.
Title: Franke & Heidecke became insovent
Post by: vydalex on March 05, 2009, 07:35:57 am
Quote from: vydalex
Unfortunately, it's only the beginning.
Leaf, Sinar, Hasselblad, PhaseOne, Mamiya... Discussion with them at the Photokina in October, they all say (said as an aside)  that in the MF market, there is place for only two....

Quote from: michael
… but there continue to be commercial photographers who have the means and the need to buy $30-$40,000 systems.
Whether there are enough to keep the smaller companies in business on an ongoing basis is dubious though.
Regretably I think that within 6 months we'll be down to just two companies in this market segment.

Michael

Michael, I see you have  same information… and same thought.
Hasselblad, Leaf, PhaseOne/Mamiya? It is going to depend on which big group will be behind.

alex
Title: Franke & Heidecke became insovent
Post by: Leonardo Barreto on March 05, 2009, 07:49:58 am
Thierry, I think your point is valid, I will not use the bankruptcy term since there it arguably can or cannot apply here, I used it as an expression...

I think that this are difficult times and we probably see more changes. I wonder what will happen with Leica and more specifically with the plans for the S2 system. This is an even more ambitious project that comes at an even latter time in to the big storm.

On the other hand I heard rumors that PENTAX is now thinking to come out --after showing a model 4 years ago -- with their own 645 back or camera/back...

The future of the MF, including Hy6 may be in the mid term future when 35mm hits serious problems of DIFFRACTION effect and limitations related to 35mm glass and of squeezing millions more of sensels in the same real state. At the same time sensor production may drop so much in price that larger formats would be an attractive ways for the commercial photographers to improve their services.
Quote from: ThierryH
Not at all my interests, but for the sake of clarity of information.

Best regards,
Thierry
Title: Franke & Heidecke became insovent
Post by: ivan muller on March 05, 2009, 10:17:01 am

i find this hard to believe too.
maybe there are more working dentists out than photographers .... some big seller of mf systems told me recently that its hard to believe how many amateurs buy the new 50mp hassy, could be similar with the p65.

hi Rainer,

A while ago I went to see a dentist to fix a broken filling. started chatting when he heard I was a photographer. told me he had a Hassy H1 or 2 etc etc. didnt see any photos on his walls so.....  end of story he wouldnt fix my filling, but I walked out with a quote for 6000 Euro(equivalent) for a porcelain replacement of all my fillings!!! At that time I had just bought my ZD, with a loan, payable over 4years for roughly the same amount as the quote!

By the way, I have just had my best month ever, and the last 4/5 months have been good but  90% of the work was done on a 450d canon! The ZD was only used for jobs were I knew they would want large prints. Go figure!

Regards, Ivan
Title: Franke & Heidecke became insovent
Post by: bcooter on March 05, 2009, 10:37:56 am
Quote from: mcfoto
Hi
Back in April 2006 we did a promotion for the ZD camera. As we all know Mamiya was sold to another company in April 2006. Gay & I were at the PMA show in Sydney on May 1st/2006 & the word on the floor was Mamiya was going out of business. After wards when I talked to the agent for Mamiya he said that news basicly killed the sales for the ZD. Sure maybe the ZD wasn't the best but word on the street was not good.
 This is now 2009 in not the best of economic times, hell the US car market dropped about 40% year to year. Now the MFD sector has not been strong for a few years...... Now we hear this news about the Hy6.......does this instill  confidence in the market? I don't think so! When we shoot MFD our choice is Leaf. These are very interesting times!
Denis


A lot of people would have loved to see a low cost medium format camera succeed but the problem with the Mamiya wasn't only rumor.   The issue was the product was out of date the moment it hit the shelves.  Tiny lcd, low iso, small buffer, technical problems and half baked software just for 22mpx.

Yes the economy is tough right now, but it is just the market righting itself and even if we weren't in a global recession, there is only so many $30,000 to $50,000 camera systems a photographer (any photographer) is willing to absorb.  Actually there is only so many $15,000 upgrades your willing to accept until you just say enough is enough.  

At some point 20% more detail just doesn't justify the costs and honestly go through the archives of great photographs and tell me if any one of them would be improved if they had 20% more detail.

I always say perception is reality until times get tough, then logic takes over.   We've all seen every digital device we own get passed every 11 to 18 months by a new model, which promises a lot, but only delivers incremental changes.  It just stands to reason at some point you skip it model or two.

The upside to all of this  is if you have the money, the slightly used and refurbished market is making some very strong deals.

I find all of the news lately to be sad mostly for the workers that are laid off.  That's the heartbreaker and you have to wonder why it got that way.  

Is the market really that small, could the cameras have been better, did management fail or is it that lower cost options are so close in quality that spending another $20,000 or so dollars just don't give that much return?

Even on this forum self proclaimed medium format brand junkies are not buying high end equipment, they're not even looking at a $8,000 nikon, but instead the Sony, because it's $5,000 less.  That has to tell you something.

Regardless of the news of the HY6, the fact is it's difficult to get real unbiased information.  I know today I can call 4 dealers, 4 camera reps and 4 people in management of all of the respective medium format companies and get a widely different opinion on who will be and who won't be in business in 12 months.

The medium format industry needs less rumor and more real clarity.  

The thought that a successful photographer can't afford a $40,000 camera is wrong, but if your doing smart business you will allocate your funds where they have the most positive effect and in the professional world what we put in front of the lens usually has a lot more to do with gaining business than what kind or brand of camera we use.

Personally, I'd like to see all he camera makers prosper because it is a reflection on our industry as a whole.

Title: Franke & Heidecke became insovent
Post by: jjlphoto on March 05, 2009, 11:16:04 am
There is PhaseOne, Kodak/Leaf, Dalsa, Jenoptik, Mamiya, Schneider, Rodenstock, Zeiss, & Leica. (Leica seems to be now preoccupied with their S-2, so I don't really see them entering the MF market.) I also don't think the Mamiya platform has the clout the be the only other MF choice (next to Hasselblad). There will certainly be more consolidation and partnering with the rest of these high quality companies, so in time I expect a truly superb MF system with great German optics we can actually afford. (I guess that leaves Sinar out of it    )
Title: Franke & Heidecke became insovent
Post by: laughingbear on March 05, 2009, 12:19:07 pm
Sometimes things are happening really fast.

LEICA has a new CEO, Andreas Kaufmann is out!

The new one is Rudolf Spiller.

I agree with Michael and others, sadly this shake up has just begun, and I also think there will be only two left after the storm.

Best wishes
Oceanviewstudio
Title: Franke & Heidecke became insovent
Post by: tho_mas on March 05, 2009, 12:28:04 pm
Quote from: laughingbear
LEICA has a new CEO, Andreas Kaufmann is out!
The new one is Rudolf Spiller.
seems not quite right.
A. Kaufmann moves back to the supervisory board, as planned.

http://www.gfw.de/newsticker/detail.html?id=21212 (http://www.gfw.de/newsticker/detail.html?id=21212)
Title: Franke & Heidecke became insovent
Post by: laughingbear on March 05, 2009, 01:05:47 pm
Quote from: tho_mas
seems not quite right.
A. Kaufmann moves back to the supervisory board, as planned.

http://www.gfw.de/newsticker/detail.html?id=21212 (http://www.gfw.de/newsticker/detail.html?id=21212)


Well, I should have said no longer CEO... yes he moves to the supervisory board.
Title: Franke & Heidecke became insovent
Post by: mmurph on March 05, 2009, 02:29:06 pm
It will take quite some time to sort this all out.

Even the best run, most profitable companies in the world - like Toyota - are hard on the ropes right now. How long can you support 50% excess capacity - people, plants, taxes, etc.  

Failure right now does not suggest a poorly or well executed strategy (though it may.)  It might just be that a company took on an acquisition, or too much R&D, or can't get financing for their next product cycle.

I have sat in on a board meeting at a US Fortune 5 company where the question was: to kill, downsize, sell, or expand a division of 2,000+ employees?

No-one knew what the outcome would be 2/3 of the way through the meeting! It is impossible to second guess any company's plans at this point without being very close to the CEO and board.

How many of us sold out all of our stock at the peak 14 months ago?  Or our houses when they were still worth something ....  

This is a unique - and frightening - learning opportunity.


To Rainer's point, part of the "irony" in the purchase of these systems by "amatuers", is the fact that as a business, we have to do a clear cost/benefit analysis before a major purchase.   As enthusiasts that is not required.

Not really about talent, just intent - making money, or doing certain types of (personal) work.
Title: Franke & Heidecke became insovent
Post by: JerryReed on March 05, 2009, 03:38:20 pm
Quote from: mmurph
It will take quite some time to sort this all out.

Even the best run, most profitable companies in the world - like Toyota - are hard on the ropes right now. How long can you support 50% excess capacity - people, plants, taxes, etc.  

Failure right now does not suggest a poorly or well executed strategy (though it may.)  It might just be that a company took on an acquisition, or too much R&D, or can't get financing for their next product cycle.

I have sat in on a board meeting at a US Fortune 5 company where the question was: to kill, downsize, sell, or expand a division of 2,000+ employees?

No-one knew what the outcome would be 2/3 of the way through the meeting! It is impossible to second guess any company's plans at this point without being very close to the CEO and board.

How many of us sold out all of our stock at the peak 14 months ago?  Or our houses when they were still worth something ....  

This is a unique - and frightening - learning opportunity.


To Rainer's point, part of the "irony" in the purchase of these systems by "amatuers", is the fact that as a business, we have to do a clear cost/benefit analysis before a major purchase.   As enthusiasts that is not required.

Not really about talent, just intent - making money, or doing certain types of (personal) work.


Michael.

I am wishing you well.

Jerry
Title: Franke & Heidecke became insovent
Post by: eronald on March 05, 2009, 03:52:53 pm
Frankly, the Leica s2 is a non-runner outside the MF market, the sensor is basically obsolete at launch, IMHO, not fast enough.
Will shoot well with studio flash and good outdoors light.
Maybe Kodak will do them a new sensor before launch but I have my doubts about that.

Edmund
Title: Franke & Heidecke became insovent
Post by: mcfoto on March 05, 2009, 03:57:12 pm
Leaf still has the option of Mamiya. In the US the Mac group is the agent for both Leaf & Mamiya. The DL28 is one example at a very good price. The alliance with Phase & Mamiya has really boosted Mamiya. Go back a few years when Hasselbad went the H3D route & Sinar/Leaf went with the Hy6 platform. Phase had no where to go but to Mamiya & today they have the AFDIII/Phase which has a much better shutter lag. Plus you still can get some inexpensive glass on eBay. Even though I sold my ZD camera I still have a Mamiya kit with the option of renting a back when needed. A good friend of mine in Melbourne bought an used Aptus 22 for his AFd body & he loves it.

I have to give credit to Phase for there software. When I talk to digital operators they know Phase One more than anyone else for tethered shooting. Plus the fact it works for Canon & Nikon in the tethered mode. So Phase is making money selling there software to non Phase One back owners is a very smart business model.

Denis
Title: Franke & Heidecke became insovent
Post by: Leonardo Barreto on March 05, 2009, 04:27:31 pm
If there is no Hy6 -- note the "if" --, then the MF status going through the economic adjustment will be that there are two reflex system, (or two and a half if we count the H-1 H-2) and only one opened for PhaseOne, Leaf and SINAR: the AFD

Probably new heroic attempts to raid the AF market from Leica, Nikon or Canon will have to wait.


Title: Franke & Heidecke became insovent
Post by: AndreNapier on March 06, 2009, 03:06:16 am
Quote from: EricWHiss
This is terrible news...  :-(
 
But maybe if not Jenoptic, then Kodak or even Phase would buy them?    Seems like a fantastic platform with lots of potential still untapped.     Man I hope who ever buys them will come out with a big square back!

I was informed today by Steve Goldsmith of Calumet that they just received a memo from Leaf stating that Leaf USA is going to pick up production of AFi bodies.
Also a number of demo AFi 7 with 80mm/2.8 AFD  with 1 year warranty is available for $17,995. What a sweet deal.
Of course not for me since I bought my AFi7, 50mm, 80mm, 90mm, 180mm and a 45 prism just a week ago at a regular price. As my wife says, do not cry and rather consider it your personal stimulus package to jump start US economy. Tough and interesting times we live in. Losing 10K in just a week I recently have to consider not that bad of a week after all.  I could have easily retired two years ago at the age of 45 and never worry about money but instead I decided to watch it melt away like an ice on a desert to keep me a purpose in life. Well, I still keep a good mood and a smile on my face for at least as long as my health insurance is going to be covering my Prozac. LOL.
Andre
Title: Franke & Heidecke became insovent
Post by: ThierryH on March 06, 2009, 04:54:11 am
Andre,

I appreciate your sense of humor and coolness a lot!

 

Best regards,
Thierry


Quote from: AndreNapier
I was informed today by Steve Goldsmith of Calumet that they just received a memo from Leaf stating that Leaf USA is going to pick up production of AFi bodies.
Also a number of demo AFi 7 with 80mm/2.8 AFD  with 1 year warranty is available for $17,995. What a sweet deal.
Of course not for me since I bought my AFi7, 50mm, 80mm, 90mm, 180mm and a 45 prism just a week ago at a regular price. As my wife says, do not cry and rather consider it your personal stimulus package to jump start US economy. Tough and interesting times we live in. Losing 10K in just a week I recently have to consider not that bad of a week after all.  I could have easily retired two years ago at the age of 45 and never worry about money but instead I decided to watch it melt away like an ice on a desert to keep me a purpose in life. Well, I still keep a good mood and a smile on my face for at least as long as my health insurance is going to be covering my Prozac. LOL.
Andre
Title: Franke & Heidecke became insovent
Post by: yaya on March 06, 2009, 05:10:51 am
Quote from: AndreNapier
I was informed today by Steve Goldsmith of Calumet that they just received a memo from Leaf stating that Leaf USA is going to pick up production of AFi bodies.
Also a number of demo AFi 7 with 80mm/2.8 AFD  with 1 year warranty is available for $17,995. What a sweet deal.
Of course not for me since I bought my AFi7, 50mm, 80mm, 90mm, 180mm and a 45 prism just a week ago at a regular price. As my wife says, do not cry and rather consider it your personal stimulus package to jump start US economy. Tough and interesting times we live in. Losing 10K in just a week I recently have to consider not that bad of a week after all.  I could have easily retired two years ago at the age of 45 and never worry about money but instead I decided to watch it melt away like an ice on a desert to keep me a purpose in life. Well, I still keep a good mood and a smile on my face for at least as long as my health insurance is going to be covering my Prozac. LOL.
Andre

Hey Andre did you not buy a new AFi-II 7? Great deal from Calumet but it is an ex. demo unit with an older back that doesn't have the new tilt LCD screen and the rotating sensor...
Title: Franke & Heidecke became insovent
Post by: H1/A75 Guy on March 06, 2009, 10:14:55 am
Quote from: AndreNapier
I was informed today by Steve Goldsmith of Calumet that they just received a memo from Leaf stating that Leaf USA is going to pick up production of AFi bodies.
Well, thats an interesting twist. You gotta know the Leafites can handle a struggle.  Although, I always envisioned Leaf America operating out of a storage locker just down the hall from MAC Group. They may have to expand. LOL!!

Don't feel bad about what you you spent on the AFi 7. I lost 15k on the sale of the H1/A75 (nice back, H sucked eggs big time) and spent another 15k for the AFi II 7, 50mm, 80mm, and 110mm. I should have been a dentist, or should have seen a dentist. Watching the money evaporate made my teeth hurt.

Let us know how you like the 45 prism compared to the WLF.

Yes, Life is better with an AFi.

We'll have to stay on top of Yaya for the etched Focus Screen.

David
Title: Franke & Heidecke became insovent
Post by: Leonardo Barreto on March 06, 2009, 12:13:47 pm
Isn't Leaf=Kodak? They could -if they want-, keep the Afi pipeline going. But, isn't the design proprietary of Franke & Heidecke? They would have to buy it from them. By the way, I think that there was a lot of top of the line work done on Leaf's website http://www.leaf-photography.com/ (http://www.leaf-photography.com/) and the virtual show room of the AFi II with the rotating sensor and movable LCD... is this the work of Lear America or Kodak?

Leaf America seams to be pushing more in the direction of other than AFi platforms... this is a quote from their site:

[blockquote]With the popularity of the new Mamiya DL-28, many existing owners of mamiya AFD-II and AFD-III camera systems have requested the opportunity to step into digital at a great price, without investing in another camera body. Therefore, for a limited time, Leaf is offering the new Leaf Aptus-II 6 (as featured on the DL-28) at an astoundingly low price.[/blockquote]

If Leaf America is the one in charge of "take over production" of the AFi, should they not promote the system instead of talking about "the popularity of ... Mamiya..."
Title: Franke & Heidecke became insovent
Post by: Mitchell Baum on March 06, 2009, 12:36:15 pm
The AFI/Hy6 is owned by Jenoptic which also owns Sinar. They commissioned F&H to make the camera.

Best,

Mitchell


Title: Franke & Heidecke became insovent
Post by: hubell on March 06, 2009, 12:52:05 pm
Quote from: AndreNapier
I was informed today by Steve Goldsmith of Calumet that they just received a memo from Leaf stating that Leaf USA is going to pick up production of AFi bodies.
Andre

If I ran Leaf, I would be a lot more anxious to communicate directly with my potential end user customers than with Steve Goldsmith at Calumet.
Title: Franke & Heidecke became insovent
Post by: jjlphoto on March 06, 2009, 01:32:23 pm
Quote from: Leonardo Barreto
...Isn't Leaf=Kodak?.....By the way, I think that there was a lot of top of the line work done on Leaf's website http://www.leaf-photography.com/ (http://www.leaf-photography.com/) and the virtual show room of the AFi II with the rotating sensor and movable LCD... is this the work of Lear America or Kodak?...

Kodak just makes the sensors. From what I have read, Kodak leaves Leaf pretty much alone. I  fact, Leaf also uses Dalsa sensors in their backs.
Title: Franke & Heidecke became insovent
Post by: H1/A75 Guy on March 06, 2009, 02:33:12 pm
Quote from: Leonardo Barreto
Isn't Leaf=Kodak? They could -if they want-, keep the Afi pipeline going. But, isn't the design proprietary of Franke & Heidecke? They would have to buy it from them. By the way, I think that there was a lot of top of the line work done on Leaf's website http://www.leaf-photography.com/ (http://www.leaf-photography.com/) and the virtual show room of the AFi II with the rotating sensor and movable LCD... is this the work of Lear America or Kodak?

Leaf America seams to be pushing more in the direction of other than AFi platforms... this is a quote from their site:

[blockquote]With the popularity of the new Mamiya DL-28, many existing owners of mamiya AFD-II and AFD-III camera systems have requested the opportunity to step into digital at a great price, without investing in another camera body. Therefore, for a limited time, Leaf is offering the new Leaf Aptus-II 6 (as featured on the DL-28) at an astoundingly low price.[/blockquote]

If Leaf America is the one in charge of "take over production" of the AFi, should they not promote the system instead of talking about "the popularity of ... Mamiya..."
Ya know, Leanardo,

Just like csp and Snook, you need to listen more and talk less. Your website looks cool, but the stuff that comes out of your mouth here is pure dribble.

Not unlike the dribble with Michael's veiled innuendo that only Phase and Hasselblad will survive in this market.

The medium format community sure as hell better be cheering Leaf on. Hanging a Phase Back on a Mamiya body will always be a medicore solution, at best. And Hasselblad can't even build a camera body that communicates with the battery grip, so what's with that?

The only viable solution is the AFi.

David
Title: Franke & Heidecke became insovent
Post by: H1/A75 Guy on March 06, 2009, 02:37:30 pm
Quote from: hcubell
If I ran Leaf, I would be a lot more anxious to communicate directly with my potential end user customers than with Steve Goldsmith at Calumet.
Give it a rest, guy,

Leaf communicates with their dealer/distributors and informs them what to communicate with the public (end user). When there is a need to update their website, Leaf will do so.

David
Title: Franke & Heidecke became insovent
Post by: hubell on March 06, 2009, 03:03:32 pm
Quote from: H1/A75 Guy
Give it a rest, guy,

Leaf communicates with their dealer/distributors and informs them what to communicate with the public (end user). When there is a need to update their website, Leaf will do so.

David

I understand. You like the Emperor Nero approach to corporate communication when your company's ass is on the line.
Title: Franke & Heidecke became insovent
Post by: Leonardo Barreto on March 06, 2009, 03:37:15 pm
"Your website looks cool"

  Thank you  


    but the stuff that comes out of your mouth here is pure dribble.

Nothing comes out of my mouth, I am typing...    Then again I m not saying that there will only be H-and AFD systems left. I said --IF-- it happens, how the MF would be. It is a conditional and we are discussing resent events (like Franke & Heidecke insolvency) and how this affects us.

I spent a large amount of money on my AFD system and PhaseOne back --that for some may be donuts money, but not for me-- and I have a vested interest in the way the entire MF world is evolving. It is part of our work as photographers to know our equipment and to be able to somehow predict the market.

All of this may be dribble for you, but others have and will continue to put their hard earned money -harder now even than yesterday- in one or another brand that we are discussing here, so you should ask them if this is dribble or not.

 
Title: Franke & Heidecke became insovent
Post by: Gigi on March 06, 2009, 06:39:20 pm
Quote from: H1/A75 Guy
Ya know, Leanardo,

Just like csp and Snook, you need to listen more and talk less. Your website looks cool, but the stuff that comes out of your mouth here is pure dribble.

Not unlike the dribble with Michael's veiled innuendo that only Phase and Hasselblad will survive in this market.

David

I'm a big fan of the Hy6, and its family, but such is not.... just not good manners.
Please reconsider the language.


Title: Franke & Heidecke became insovent
Post by: csp on March 07, 2009, 04:23:35 am
Quote from: H1/A75 Guy
Just like csp and Snook, you need to listen more and talk less. Your website looks cool, but the stuff that comes out of your mouth here is pure dribble.

Not unlike the dribble with Michael's veiled innuendo that only Phase and Hasselblad will survive in this market.

The medium format community sure as hell better be cheering Leaf on. Hanging a Phase Back on a Mamiya body will always be a medicore solution, at best. And Hasselblad can't even build a camera body that communicates with the battery grip, so what's with that?

The only viable solution is the AFi.

David


it would be best you follow your own advise and watch out what cameras and backs are really used by professionals and not what is hyped on the web with the help of  smart reps and dealers.
as faster as the digital mf market gets cleared the better it is for us photographers.
Title: Franke & Heidecke became insovent
Post by: bdp on March 07, 2009, 04:30:01 am
Quote from: csp
it would be best you follow your own advise and watch out what cameras and backs are really used by professionals and not what is hyped on the web with the help of  smart reps and dealers.
as faster as the digital mf market gets cleared the better it is for us photographers.

How does less competition in the market help us? Is that what you mean by 'cleared'?
Title: Franke & Heidecke became insovent
Post by: csp on March 07, 2009, 05:14:12 am
Quote from: bdp
How does less competition in the market help us? Is that what you mean by 'cleared'?


yes, to many brands with to less differences.  the reason why so many film mf brands could live was only because of an huge amateur market, this has totally changed with digital mf.
what happens now is only  that the offers get adjusted to the market demand. even without the economy crisis i'm sure this would have happened sooner or later,  it was long overdue.
i want see more development with digital mf, better integration of back and camera,  better performance, innovative features...  but this can only become
real  if the companies have a solid finical base and this needs high sales numbers as in every other market.

Title: Franke & Heidecke became insovent
Post by: Leonardo Barreto on March 07, 2009, 09:08:47 am
Thank you Geoffrey, difficult to take offense from someone that chooses to remain anonymous, and use a camera brand as name.

Quote from: Geoffreyg
I'm a big fan of the Hy6, and its family, but such is not.... just not good manners.
Please reconsider the language.
Title: Franke & Heidecke became insovent
Post by: laughingbear on March 07, 2009, 01:31:52 pm
Hi Leonardo,

I often wondered about the dynamics of this market, totalling in something like 6.000 backs give or take per annum, this is a very narrow segment, and very difficult for players to stand out against the rest of the bunch in deed.

I always questioned the prices those items have tagged on, then again, I have no insights in the internal cost basis calculation of a digital back or MF camera per se, I just wondered whether these prices reflect some form of overpricing in general, not sure though as I said. My gut tells me more than likely they are creaming it, but I stand to be corrected.

I do not believe that the current events will help, in opposite, the reduction to lesser players will monopolise this small segment even more so and a healthy competition would be lost, not good news!

Best wishes
Oceanviewstudio
Title: Franke & Heidecke became insovent
Post by: Leonardo Barreto on March 07, 2009, 04:24:03 pm
I never said that Franke & Heidecke insolvency is good news, or that I am happy to hear it. What I say is that I personally think that the concept behind the Hy6 could have been more in tune with what the market needed and we probably would not be reading this news. If you introduce a new system in a mature tight market you have to come up with something that would give the user an undeniable edge over whatever his competitor bring to a job. Mamiya came up with a back that sold for a fraction of what the leading digital backs cost (ZD) and almost brought down the entire Mamiya brand. Photographers prefer to spend more but get a good quality product. The market was unforgiving for them even then. Contax offered some of the best optics in MF and a very mature and feature full 645 camera, but that didn't help them ether.  

But as some have said, maybe the AFi-Hy6 will continue to be manufactured by Leaf America, and the design of the system had nothing to do with F&H insolvency.



Quote from: laughingbear
Hi Leonardo,

I often wondered about the dynamics of this market, totalling in something like 6.000 backs give or take per annum, this is a very narrow segment, and very difficult for players to stand out against the rest of the bunch in deed.

I always questioned the prices those items have tagged on, then again, I have no insights in the internal cost basis calculation of a digital back or MF camera per se, I just wondered whether these prices reflect some form of overpricing in general, not sure though as I said. My gut tells me more than likely they are creaming it, but I stand to be corrected.

I do not believe that the current events will help, in opposite, the reduction to lesser players will monopolise this small segment even more so and a healthy competition would be lost, not good news!

Best wishes
Oceanviewstudio
Title: Franke & Heidecke became insovent
Post by: Carsten W on March 07, 2009, 04:56:58 pm
Quote from: Leonardo Barreto
If you introduce a new system in a mature tight market...

Mature??? dim, low-res screens which cannot be seen in normal daylight? Lenses which need to be tested and rejected before a good copy is found? Sensors with green stripes? Two batteries in one camera+back? Shooting rates like molasses? LCC files required for decent colour across the image? Incomplete lens lineups with missing leaf shutter lenses, tilt+shift lenses, you name it? Tolerance failures in tech cameras which make focusing impossible? Companies which promise openness and then go closed?

This whole market is just waiting for a single, decent, moral company to come in and wipe up.
Title: Franke & Heidecke became insovent
Post by: mcfoto on March 07, 2009, 05:17:48 pm
good price
 http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewI...alenotsupported (http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=360136215092&category=31388&viewitem=&salenotsupported)
Title: Franke & Heidecke became insovent
Post by: Leonardo Barreto on March 07, 2009, 05:20:50 pm
Carstenw: I agree. I guess we will have to wait for that company to come...

Quote from: carstenw
Mature??? dim, low-res screens which cannot be seen in normal daylight? Lenses which need to be tested and rejected before a good copy is found? Sensors with green stripes? Two batteries in one camera+back? Shooting rates like molasses? LCC files required for decent colour across the image? Incomplete lens lineups with missing leaf shutter lenses, tilt+shift lenses, you name it? Tolerance failures in tech cameras which make focusing impossible? Companies which promise openness and then go closed?

This whole market is just waiting for a single, decent, moral company to come in and wipe up.
Title: Franke & Heidecke became insovent
Post by: EricWHiss on March 07, 2009, 08:06:41 pm
Quote from: carstenw
Mature??? dim, low-res screens which cannot be seen in normal daylight? Lenses which need to be tested and rejected before a good copy is found? Sensors with green stripes? Two batteries in one camera+back? Shooting rates like molasses? LCC files required for decent colour across the image? Incomplete lens lineups with missing leaf shutter lenses, tilt+shift lenses, you name it? Tolerance failures in tech cameras which make focusing impossible? Companies which promise openness and then go closed?

This whole market is just waiting for a single, decent, moral company to come in and wipe up.

Carsten are you referring to Mamiya with the above?    



Title: Franke & Heidecke became insovent
Post by: bradleygibson on March 07, 2009, 11:09:15 pm
Quote from: carstenw
Mature??? dim, low-res screens which cannot be seen in normal daylight? Lenses which need to be tested and rejected before a good copy is found? Sensors with green stripes? Two batteries in one camera+back? Shooting rates like molasses? LCC files required for decent colour across the image? Incomplete lens lineups with missing leaf shutter lenses, tilt+shift lenses, you name it? Tolerance failures in tech cameras which make focusing impossible? Companies which promise openness and then go closed?

This whole market is just waiting for a single, decent, moral company to come in and wipe up.

+1 to that Carsten.  I've just spent the last two years and switched systems 5 times looking for a tool that would just disappear in my hands.  Couldn't have said it better myself.

Eric, these issues are pervasive--some more than others, of course, but in general, it's a problem across the board, IMHO.  I often tell photographers considering following in my footsteps to be careful before coming up from small format--with the notable exception of the viewfinders and perhaps modularity, absolutely everything in MF is worse then what they're used to, except for the image quality.

At first they're very surprised to hear that statement, but when we start talking details (cost, shot speed, availability, native ISO, weight, size, batteries, start-up time, "high" ISO image quality, widest wides, longest teles, image stabilizer, "car dealership" sales model, AF performance, shutter lag, hand-holdability, etc. etc. etc., they quickly come to see what I mean).

That being said, I also point out that despite all this, I haven't gone back yet, and that's because once you accept and adapt to all those limitations, it's difficult to argue with the results.  

-Brad
Title: Franke & Heidecke became insovent
Post by: EricWHiss on March 08, 2009, 04:28:35 am
Brad,
Maybe, but I must have just been lucky since I really haven't had any problems with my Rollei 6008 AF or any of the dozen or so lenses I have amassed.   I bought everything used and yeah I had one curtagon lens with a sticky aperture - but it had sat for 15 years literally unused, and one lens with a spot of fungus that cleaned right up.  I had trouble with a focus screen being warped but that was an aftermarket screen as it turned out.   My Rollei has essentially performed better than I could have ever hoped.  I've tried quite a lot of lenses and really only one failed to impress me - the 50mm f/2.8 and from what I understand that might not be due to variability in manufacturing.     I haven't shot with 5 medium format systems... just a contax for a day, and the mamiya RZ for a couple days  - lots of leica, canon and nikon stuff.  None of it has been as reliable as the Rollei and I do take my rollei out of the studio.  It's been rained on, out in the desert and on the beach.  I don't just like it, I love it.  

I understand there were some probs with the Hy6/AFi and some with the backs.   But look at it like this - the Mamiya AFD has been through how many design iterations and its still got issues?  Come on!  The Contax? It was the end of the development - better be perfect but is it?  We all know the H3 is their third generation. What didn't make it into 3rd gen - isn't going to be there and if your camera depends on DAC to make the lenses work you can't use your favorite RAW converter.    My 6008 AF was the end of the development cycle so I guess it makes sense that it's pretty solid.   But actually considering all this - the Hy6/AFi on its first go - not too bad, huh?     Don't give up on it!   This can be the platform....  even up to 6x6 too.
Eric






Title: Franke & Heidecke became insovent
Post by: paratom on March 08, 2009, 06:26:40 am
I am still surprized about the discussion who would manufacture the Hy6 in the future based on a missunderstanding what "insolvent" means in Germany.
IMO as long as we dont hear different I think the biggest chance is that F&H would continue to produce the Hy6.
Has anybody any report or hint that the F&H facility is closed? I would be really interested if there is such information or if the whole discussion is based on speculation.
Title: Franke & Heidecke became insovent
Post by: Carsten W on March 08, 2009, 07:12:57 am
Quote from: EricWHiss
Quote
dim, low-res screens which cannot be seen in normal daylight? Lenses which need to be tested and rejected before a good copy is found? Sensors with green stripes? Two batteries in one camera+back? Shooting rates like molasses? LCC files required for decent colour across the image? Incomplete lens lineups with missing leaf shutter lenses, tilt+shift lenses, you name it? Tolerance failures in tech cameras which make focusing impossible? Companies which promise openness and then go closed?

Carsten are you referring to Mamiya with the above?

Various.

Dim sensors, cannot be seen in daylight: all, to my knowledge.

Low-res sensors: all except perhaps high-end Leaf and Sinar E65.

Lenses which need to be tested to find a good copy: Mamiya, Phase.

Sensors with green stripes: Mamiya ZD.

Two batteries: all except Hasselblad, I believe.

Shooting rate slower than molasses: all.

LCC files: several, although here I am less sure. All tech cameras, almost certainly.

Incomplete lens lineups: almost all, in various ways. Rollei doesn't have a really wide lens for the Hy6, Mamiya has some iffy non-D lenses, Hasselblad has poor back support for the V system, leaving it without true wides, Mamiya/Phase don't have leaf shutter lenses, only Phase has a T/S lens, but it has corners softer than down pillows, and so on.

Tolerance problems with tech cameras, making it hard to focus: Silvestri.

Companies which promise openness, then go closed: Hasselblad H2->H3D.

Those were just as many issues as I could write down in two minutes without thinking too deeply. There are many, many, MANY more, such as insane prices, spotty support, dealers which blame problems for spotty cameras on the photographer, flaky Firewire connections and cables, dim focusing screens, inflexible viewfinder options, poorly thought-out firmware update systems, flaky software with brain-dead or out-of-date interfaces, and on and on and on and on and on and on.

This is almost ALL stuff which a D3x owner doesn't have to deal with. Some of the systems are better thought out than the rest, but there are still WAY too many issues and caveats. What is really needed is for a company to come in, take stock, and design a system which avoids all the BS and just works. Listening to Big Cooter and James Russell and others only reinforces this opinion. There is just way too much BS with MF systems at the moment.

And this is all just from what I have heard. I don't even own one yet. I have a Contax 645 system and two Blad Vs, and plan to get a Sinar back sometime soon, provided the whole Hy6 debacle works out reasonably. To my long list of problems, any busy pro could probably add another 100 issues. I have more than once just considered getting an A900 and a couple of good Zeiss lenses. Now I am watching the Leica S2 very carefully. Leica has a long history of top-notch products, and when they inevitably mess up, they stick around and try to fix things properly. I respect this company, and their lenses are awesome. If the S2 really hits the high-end studio fashion soft spot that Leica seems to be aiming for, it ought to really shake up the industry.
Title: Franke & Heidecke became insovent
Post by: Carsten W on March 08, 2009, 07:57:56 am
Eric, in fact I am really enamoured with both the 6008AF and the Hy6. If the lenses weren't so pricy and hard to find I would have picked up a 6008AF instead of the Contax 645. Besides, I really wanted to try both the 35mm f3.5 and 120mm f4 Macro Contax 645 lenses. In general, the whole Rolleiflex universe appears to be of very high quality. Only the very wide lens is missing. They still suffer from the missing high ISO, low shooting rates, and so on, however.

The primary failure of the whole F&H/Sinar/Leaf triumvirate is to fail to make the whole thing compelling. The few niggles, such as too-loose contacts on the left side, and missing finders, should be easily fixable, if they listen properly. But F&H has never really fixed whatever was wrong with their marketing/sales/support strategy, but just stupidly insisted that everything was fine, and so they never reached the penetration of the Hasselblad V cameras, and more recently, the H. In the end, they are a minor player, and always were. Sad, but true.
Title: Franke & Heidecke became insovent
Post by: csp on March 08, 2009, 08:35:16 am
Quote from: carstenw
The primary failure of the whole F&H/Sinar/Leaf triumvirate is to fail to make the whole thing compelling. The few niggles, such as too-loose contacts on the left side, and missing finders, should be easily fixable, if they listen properly. But F&H has never really fixed whatever was wrong with their marketing/sales/support strategy, but just stupidly insisted that everything was fine, and so they never reached the penetration of the Hasselblad V cameras, and more recently, the H. In the end, they are a minor player, and always were. Sad, but true.

...so true carsten, and only stupid managers can think it is enough to change the name of a camera to erase the record what caused the rollei troubles in the past.  in the view of many collegues  rollei was not reliable enough for professional usage.  although rollei was  featured extensively in german photo mags those days  the studios were dominated by hasselblad and mamiya and they still are.  

Title: Franke & Heidecke became insovent
Post by: Carsten W on March 08, 2009, 08:44:49 am
Quote from: csp
...so true carsten, and only stupid managers can think it is enough to change the name of a camera to erase the record what caused the rollei troubles in the past.  in the view of many collegues  rollei was not reliable enough for professional usage.  although rollei was  featured extensively in german photo mags those days  the studios were dominated by hasselblad and mamiya and they still are.

Well, I have never heard that Rollei cameras were less reliable than Hasselblads, but then again, if the support channel is iffy, then the end result is that people won't buy them.
Title: Franke & Heidecke became insovent
Post by: Graham Mitchell on March 08, 2009, 08:57:01 am
Quote from: carstenw
only Phase has a T/S lens, but it has corners softer than down pillows, and so on.

Just fyi, there is a well-regarded 55mm TS lens for the Rollei/Hy6/AFi
Title: Franke & Heidecke became insovent
Post by: Leonardo Barreto on March 08, 2009, 09:42:50 am
The first hint of trouble in Hy6 was that Thierry lost his job after promoting the system really well... the other hint is the absence of a press release stating that even after the insolvency the system will be produced normally. Not saying that there will never be such press release, but they the market is holding its breath with every day that there is no official news about the future of the system, or at least this is not going to make the Hy6/AFi more popular.

Quote from: paratom
I am still surprized about the discussion who would manufacture the Hy6 in the future based on a missunderstanding what "insolvent" means in Germany.
IMO as long as we dont hear different I think the biggest chance is that F&H would continue to produce the Hy6.
Has anybody any report or hint that the F&H facility is closed? I would be really interested if there is such information or if the whole discussion is based on speculation.
Title: Franke & Heidecke became insovent
Post by: Leonardo Barreto on March 08, 2009, 10:53:18 am
Cost of the system has to be considered to

According to CALUMET web site a AFD III body only is $3,499.00
 and the Leaf AFi Body with Waist Level Finder Only is $5,999.99
Hasselblad
H2F Medium Format Auto Focus SLR Camera Body ONLY $3,250 (B&H)

... the other problem with HY6 is that if you search for it on B&H, a major pro camera store in New York, you get this "Sorry, no items were found matching your search request for "HY6". Please see the search tips below or you may want to try a new search."



Title: Franke & Heidecke became insovent
Post by: EricWHiss on March 08, 2009, 02:02:26 pm
Quote from: Leonardo Barreto
Cost of the system has to be considered to

According to CALUMET web site a AFD III body only is $3,499.00
 and the Leaf AFi Body with Waist Level Finder Only is $5,999.99
Hasselblad
H2F Medium Format Auto Focus SLR Camera Body ONLY $3,250 (B&H)

... the other problem with HY6 is that if you search for it on B&H, a major pro camera store in New York, you get this "Sorry, no items were found matching your search request for "HY6". Please see the search tips below or you may want to try a new search."


Never could figure out those calumetphoto prices - if you do a key word search your find several listings of the same item often at wildly different prices.   I wouldn't build a case from just a quick glance at their website.    Rollei gear has the reputation of being higher in cost, but when you take a look at some of the new pricing on the H lenses or Mamiya - heck they all are expensive.  Just wait until Leica comes out with the S2 lenses!


Title: Franke & Heidecke became insovent
Post by: Graham Mitchell on March 08, 2009, 02:21:00 pm
Quote from: Leonardo Barreto
Cost of the system has to be considered to

According to CALUMET web site a AFD III body only is $3,499.00
 and the Leaf AFi Body with Waist Level Finder Only is $5,999.99
Hasselblad
H2F Medium Format Auto Focus SLR Camera Body ONLY $3,250 (B&H)

... the other problem with HY6 is that if you search for it on B&H, a major pro camera store in New York, you get this "Sorry, no items were found matching your search request for "HY6". Please see the search tips below or you may want to try a new search."

Strange... I just checked some random German prices as a comparison. The Hy6 is cheaper than the Mamiya according to these.

Mamiya 645 AFD III: € 3,393
(see http://www.ac-foto.com/ac/shop/shop.php?in...a2a137171679a8b (http://www.ac-foto.com/ac/shop/shop.php?inhalt=infoseite&id=21480&adcode=fcf7c2942b96dc8d0a2a137171679a8b) )

Sinar Hy6: € 3.278,00
(see http://shop.strato.de/epages/15493234.sf/d...hy6/hy6_kameras (http://shop.strato.de/epages/15493234.sf/de_AT/?ObjectPath=/Shops/15493234/Categories/d_sinar_hy6/hy6_kameras) )


Title: Franke & Heidecke became insovent
Post by: Neil Folberg on March 08, 2009, 02:41:53 pm
As a long time Rollei user I was saddened to hear of Franke & Heidecke´s insolvency. As the new owner of an AFi-II 7 that is doubly difficult news. However, I have heard from a source in Leaf with whom I have been working that the news may not be as bleak as it sounds, since F&H is still producing AFi bodies for Leaf who is shipping to their distributors. They´re hoping the situation will be clearer in a week or so and they can provide substantive news soon.

Neil Folberg
Title: Franke & Heidecke became insovent
Post by: uaiomex on March 08, 2009, 03:13:28 pm
Let's pray
Eduardo

Quote from: Neil Folberg
As a long time Rollei user I was saddened to hear of Franke & Heidecke´s insolvency. As the new owner of an AFi-II 7 that is doubly difficult news. However, I have heard from a source in Leaf with whom I have been working that the news may not be as bleak as it sounds, since F&H is still producing AFi bodies for Leaf who is shipping to their distributors. They´re hoping the situation will be clearer in a week or so and they can provide substantive news soon.

Neil Folberg
Title: Franke & Heidecke became insovent
Post by: Leonardo Barreto on March 08, 2009, 05:02:17 pm
I have decided to become an observer -at least for the moment- and stop commenting on this topic. Apparently my posts are giving the impression that I have an ax to grind, that I work for Hasselblad or who knows what. I want to be on the record that this is not so -of course-.

I have always -since I was a child- liked to take machines apart and see how they where constructed. I am a fan of well designed gadgets and have issues with ones that --according to me are not --  When the AFi/Hy6 first came out I had the opinion that the design was not the best, but this is just an opinion and a personal one.

Now that we find out that Thierry lost his job at SINAR/Hy6 and F&H became insolvent, I wanted to say "i told you so", but as we can see here, things are not so simple and I got in to the argument for the argument sake. (and sometimes my arguments where not backed up by the best research)

Since I don't have anything against Sinar/Leaf/F&H or people that work with them I will just sit, wait and hope the best for them in this difficult times.

take care everybody
Leonardo Barreto
Title: Franke & Heidecke became insovent
Post by: ThierryH on March 09, 2009, 01:25:24 am
Thanks EPd!

Yes, I won't make any public comment about the reasons of the termination of my contract by Sinar, but I can certainly say that it is in no way related to F&H's or the Hy6's current situation.

"Wrong place - Wrong moment" seems to be appropriate.

Best regards,
Thierry

Quote from: EPd
And about Thierry's leave: he is probably not going to comment in public, but my information tells me that his termination of contract is not in any way particularly related to the Hy6. It seems more of a situation of being at the wrong place in the company at the wrong moment (economically speaking). Very sad coincidence of the powers that be.
Title: Franke & Heidecke became insovent
Post by: tomholland on March 09, 2009, 03:47:17 am
Support seems to be fine, I have a new body arrived today due to a bad lcd on the camera =)
Title: Franke & Heidecke became insovent
Post by: Rune Werner Molnes on March 09, 2009, 05:23:35 am
(I have not bothered reading through this entire thread to check if someone has recieved something similar to the information below).

Anyway,

Good news...or promises as such:

I had a somewhat reassuring conversation with a key representative from Leaf Europe, telling me that a lot is happening behind the scenes to sort out the troubles at F&H. All the companies in the consortium, e.g. Sinar, Leaf/Kodak, Jenoptik etc are wanting the same outcome, which is to continue production of the AFi/Hy6 cameras & lenses. He also mentioned that no matter what the outcome should be, we can be confident that there will be support for existing customers also in the future. (Time will show.)

However, I am sure that they will manage to work something out and continue production, development and support. In the best interest of current AFi/Hy6 owners.

Best Regards,

Rune Werener Molnes
www.runemolnes.com (http://www.runemolnes.com)
Title: Franke & Heidecke became insovent
Post by: mcfoto on March 13, 2009, 07:09:06 pm
pdn news march 11,2009
http://www.pdnpulse.com/2009/03/medium-pan...insolvency.html (http://www.pdnpulse.com/2009/03/medium-panic-leaf-responds-to-franke-heidecke-insolvency.html)

Quote; British Journal Of Photography
(Last week, the Germany-based company announced that it is going into administration after being unable to pay its bills.

Franke & Heidecke develops products for the legendary Rolleiflex twin-lens camera system, plus it produces a 6x6 camera for both Sinar and Leaf, which respectively market it under the Hy6 and AFi product names.

Many are now asking how this will affect Sinar and Leaf – especially as the two are currently in talks about co-distribution. Talking to BJP, a spokeswoman at Sinar says that the Swiss-family business, which is owned by German manufacturer Jenoptik, is closely monitoring the situation. 'We are still receiving cameras,' she says. 'Production has not shut down and we will be looking at what is going on and what alternatives there are [in case the firm does go under].'

Leaf, also contacted by BJP, has released a statement to reassure its customers that its camera system is still and will continue to be available. 'Leaf management is in constant communication and working closely with Jenoptik and Franke & Heidecke management. They are updating us frequently as the story unfolds,' the statement says. 'Regardless of any rumours in the industry, the Franke & Heidecke manufacturing plant is operating normally and will continue to operate while Franke & Heidecke works with their creditors to reach agreement on the best way forward. While this process advances, production of Leaf AFi parts and components continues. To further ensure that Franke & Heidecke continues operating efficiently, an interim administrator has been appointed to evaluate the Franke & Heidecke business. What this means is that we will continue delivering Leaf AFi-II camera systems, lenses and accessories.'

Leaf adds that, in parallel to the actions being taken by Franke & Heidecke, it 'is investigating all possible opportunities to ensure that Leaf can achieve its goals. This effort includes urgent work with Jenoptik, F&H, our sales managers and dealers worldwide.

The financial troubles at Franke & Heidecke comes six months after the firm partnered with Hans R Schmid Beteiligungs to finance an increase in its production of camera systems and lenses, after being forced to seek new investment. However, by January this year the company appeared to be running into trouble after it announced that its chief executive officer would leave the company following disagreements with the new partner, who had become the majority shareholder as part of the investment deal.

'In view of different views regarding past and future policies and cooperation with the new partner Hans R Schmid, Mr Bodo Fischer offered his resignation from the management of Franke & Heidecke, an offer that was accepted by the company,' Franke & Heidecke said in a statement.

Now, in a new statement, the company says it is being forced into administration. And, if the statement is to be taken at face value, Schmid is blameless:

‘For majority shareholder Hans R Schmid, a devoted supporter of the company’s products, who had described his commitment as a matter of personal importance, there was no alternative to filing for insolvency any more. Although it had already been obvious at the time of the take-over that a successful restructuring would cost substantial effort, Schmid accepted the responsibility and acted determinedly. Additional specialists were employed, weak points in the company were examined and millions were invested, et al, in production and quality management. Due to these measures quick progress could be made, however, the massive failures of the past could not be resolved in the required time.’

The second half of the statement is more ambiguous, insinuating that there were hidden debts, and perhaps hinting at the real reason for Fischer’s departure: ‘When recent financial and other old liabilities turned up, which had not been known to the new shareholder at the time of the take-over, it became evident that a financial reorganisation would not be possible even by investing further millions.’

It adds that ‘negotiations with important business partners, banks and the attempt to obtain public funds failed’, and ends with the suggestion that Schmid invested at least €10 million into the business: ‘In spite of considerable risk of loss the new shareholder invested repeatedly until the very end and has preserved the company and the hope to maintain 131 jobs for a long time. Now the insolvency could not be avoided any longer. In total Schmid invested millions in the two-figure range.’

Franke & Heidecke started producing the 6x6 medium format camera in May 2007 under the impulsion of Jenoptik, Leaf and Sinar. The 'open' digital platform initiative came after Hasselblad's decision to ensure that its H3D camera body is not compatible with anything except Hasselblad digital backs (BJP, 18 October 2006).

The development of the camera was, at first, largely financed by Jenoptik, which hoped to recuperate by 'franchising' the camera to Leaf, and by distributing it through its own daughter company, Sinar.

BJP will continue to monitor the situation as it unfolds.

dfsfs)



Title: Franke & Heidecke became insovent
Post by: Leonardo Barreto on March 13, 2009, 07:31:22 pm
So, the epicenter of the PR earthquake was here, at The Luminous Landscape site/forum. And SINAR, (Jenoptik), owner of the Hy6 and AFi design decided, for no reason connected to the insolvency of F&H, un authorize Thierry, their very effective PR person very present here, at The LL, where all potential user/buyers come to research before committing to inverting the, ---and I am going to quote here Photo District News--- "The heart-stopping $35,000 price tag. " for a 33mp camera and back kit.

Production will continue, and that is good, the remaining question now is not even the insolvency of F&H, but the effect of the PR hit that this represents in projected sales targets. It seams that they where not prepared for it on one side, and on the other, that they are concern about it from reading the PDN article.



Quote from: mcfoto
pdn news march 11,2009
http://www.pdnpulse.com/2009/03/medium-pan...insolvency.html (http://www.pdnpulse.com/2009/03/medium-panic-leaf-responds-to-franke-heidecke-insolvency.html)
Title: Franke & Heidecke became insovent
Post by: jps on March 14, 2009, 09:32:33 am
Press statement from Sinar that is worth reading

http://www.capturescanprint.com/_pdf/2009_...nfo_F&H.pdf (http://www.capturescanprint.com/_pdf/2009_01_Press%20Info_F&H.pdf)


Cheers John ( a happy Hy6 owner ! )
Title: Franke & Heidecke became insovent
Post by: Toby1014 on March 14, 2009, 11:31:46 am
Quote from: Rune Werner Molnes
I had a somewhat reassuring conversation with a key representative from Leaf Europe, telling me that a lot is happening behind the scenes to sort out the troubles at F&H. All the companies in the consortium, e.g. Sinar, Leaf/Kodak, Jenoptik etc are wanting the same outcome, which is to continue production of the AFi/Hy6 cameras & lenses.



More bad news - Eastmen Kodak in trouble ?


http://money.cnn.com/2009/03/10/news/econo..._rung/index.htm (http://money.cnn.com/2009/03/10/news/economy/moodys_bottom_rung/index.htm)


Title: Franke & Heidecke became insovent
Post by: mcfoto on March 20, 2009, 06:33:53 am
latest

http://www.bjp-online.com/public/showPage.html?page=847342 (http://www.bjp-online.com/public/showPage.html?page=847342)
Title: Franke & Heidecke became insovent
Post by: BJL on March 20, 2009, 01:50:55 pm
The last two posts have a strange connection. Leaf is owned by Kodak and is perhaps becoming the main back designer for Hy6 (that is how I understand the Leaf-Sinar cooperation), so that a division of Kodak might become the main back supplier for Hy6, though using Dalsa sensors. Also, we might be headed towards each AF MF system (Hasselblad, Hy6, Mamiya) having a single main back supplier, but with Mamiya the most open so long as the Phase One partnership does not lead it to box out Leaf.
Title: Franke & Heidecke became insovent
Post by: michael on March 20, 2009, 02:16:08 pm
Kodak bought Leaf several years ago, and had little idea that they were doing so. The actually bought Creo, and Leaf was simply a small subsidiary of Creo that came with the package. The fact that Leaf uses Dalsa chips in their backs is just one of the ironies of this business.

Michael

Title: Franke & Heidecke became insovent
Post by: mosko on March 20, 2009, 02:31:17 pm
Quote from: BJL
The last two posts have a strange connection. Leaf is owned by Kodak and is perhaps becoming the main back designer for Hy6 (that is how I understand the Leaf-Sinar cooperation), so that a division of Kodak might become the main back supplier for Hy6, though using Dalsa sensors. Also, we might be headed towards each AF MF system (Hasselblad, Hy6, Mamiya) having a single main back supplier, but with Mamiya the most open so long as the Phase One partnership does not lead it to box out Leaf.

  I don't think there is any chance of the Mamiya/Phase parternship boxing out Leaf as the newly announced Mamiya DL33 sports a Leaf Aptus II back.

http://www.mamiya.com/news-events-press-re...er-brother.html (http://www.mamiya.com/news-events-press-releases-success-of-mamiya-dl28-spawns-bigger-brother.html)


Title: Franke & Heidecke became insovent
Post by: mcfoto on March 20, 2009, 02:49:49 pm
Quote from: mosko
I don't think there is any chance of the Mamiya/Phase parternship boxing out Leaf as the newly announced Mamiya DL33 sports a Leaf Aptus II back.

http://www.mamiya.com/news-events-press-re...er-brother.html (http://www.mamiya.com/news-events-press-releases-success-of-mamiya-dl28-spawns-bigger-brother.html)

Very true & the DL33  is very well priced at the $20,000 mark with a free 150 or 55 lens. Interesting how things turned out by Phase being locked out of the Hy6 platform,they formed an alliance with Mamiya. If Phase was part of the Hy6 platform would Franke & Heidecke be in the position that they are today? Plus the fact Hasselblad dropped there prices last September must of had some effect on the market?
Title: Franke & Heidecke became insovent
Post by: Carsten W on March 20, 2009, 03:45:30 pm
Quote from: mosko
I don't think there is any chance of the Mamiya/Phase parternship boxing out Leaf as the newly announced Mamiya DL33 sports a Leaf Aptus II back.

http://www.mamiya.com/news-events-press-re...er-brother.html (http://www.mamiya.com/news-events-press-releases-success-of-mamiya-dl28-spawns-bigger-brother.html)

This is another one of those weird things. Mamiya America Corporation (MAC) is also the distributor for Leaf, but not for Phase One backs. The DL33 is a MAC bundle, not a Mamiya Japan bundle. This must be a thorn in Phase's side, and perhaps also in Mamiya's.
Title: Franke & Heidecke became insovent
Post by: Graham Mitchell on March 20, 2009, 04:09:42 pm
Quote from: mcfoto
If Phase was part of the Hy6 platform would Franke & Heidecke be in the position that they are today?

From everything I've read here, F&H was at full production capacity already. In fact I think EPd stated that they had recently put on more staff to increase production. So it doesn not seem that the Hy6 was in any way responsible for F&H's troubles. The F&H press release makes reference to old debts, but we don't know much more about that.
Title: Franke & Heidecke became insovent
Post by: 4ER5pKqRYaEbOcqv on March 22, 2009, 03:02:30 pm
When I think about the debts of a company that has grown smaller, I wonder about the pensions paid to former employees.  
Title: Franke & Heidecke became insovent
Post by: tho_mas on June 11, 2009, 03:59:13 pm

http://www.photoscala.de/Artikel/Ruht-stille-Franke-Heidecke (http://www.photoscala.de/Artikel/Ruht-stille-Franke-Heidecke)
(German)

Google-Translation:
http://translate.google.de/translate?js=n&...history_state0= (http://translate.google.de/translate?js=n&prev=_t&hl=de&ie=UTF-8&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.photoscala.de%2FArtikel%2FRuht-stille-Franke-Heidecke&sl=de&tl=en&history_state0=)

:-(
Title: Franke & Heidecke became insovent
Post by: Graham Mitchell on June 11, 2009, 04:32:31 pm
ouch, well let's see what happens next - perhaps the debt attached to F&H was just too much and a new company will be born to resume production. Well, I can hope can't I?
Title: Franke & Heidecke became insovent
Post by: paulmoorestudio on June 11, 2009, 04:36:39 pm
Quote from: tho_mas
http://www.photoscala.de/Artikel/Ruht-stille-Franke-Heidecke (http://www.photoscala.de/Artikel/Ruht-stille-Franke-Heidecke)
(German)

Google-Translation:
http://translate.google.de/translate?js=n&...history_state0= (http://translate.google.de/translate?js=n&prev=_t&hl=de&ie=UTF-8&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.photoscala.de%2FArtikel%2FRuht-stille-Franke-Heidecke&sl=de&tl=en&history_state0=)

:-(

send over the "O" team, they will make a silk purse from a cow's ear..there isn't a insolvency they can't fix, workers of the world, unite and own the companies.
Title: Franke & Heidecke became insovent
Post by: jing q on June 11, 2009, 04:43:11 pm
Quote from: paulmoorestudio
send over the "O" team, they will make a silk purse from a cow's ear..there isn't a insolvency they can't fix, workers of the world, unite and own the companies.

well the writing was on the wall for a long time.
and people were still arguing that them being insolvent doesn't mean anything...puleez.
Title: Franke & Heidecke became insovent
Post by: tho_mas on June 11, 2009, 04:49:48 pm
Quote from: jing q
and people were still arguing that them being insolvent doesn't mean anything
sometimes it doesn't mean what it looks like in the begining.
The news here is that production and shipment is ceased. Doesn't sound very good.
Title: Franke & Heidecke became insovent
Post by: jing q on June 11, 2009, 05:06:57 pm
Quote from: tho_mas
sometimes it doesn't mean what it looks like in the begining.
The news here is that production and shipment is ceased. Doesn't sound very good.

that's the understatement of the year
how about: hy6 and afi users, you're screwed.
Title: Franke & Heidecke became insovent
Post by: Graham Mitchell on June 11, 2009, 05:18:09 pm
Quote from: jing q
how about: hy6 and afi users, you're screwed.

That's not up to F&H - it's up to Jenoptik. They own the rights to the Hy6 (F&H had a production contract) and can continue production elsewhere if they so choose (afaik - I haven't read the actual contracts). Jenoptik also own a large chuck of Sinar, so it seems to me that they should be pumping capital in to keep the whole family of products going or close shop altogether. Hence my comment "let's see". Even Schneider probably has some interest in the Hy6 platform, being the only new lens supplier at the moment. It would be susprising to me to spend millions of euro developing this promising platform just to let it die now, and Jenoptik can afford to keep it all going through these tough times if they want to.
Title: Franke & Heidecke became insovent
Post by: John_Black on June 11, 2009, 05:25:51 pm
Quote from: paulmoorestudio
send over the "O" team, they will make a silk purse from a cow's ear..there isn't a insolvency they can't fix, workers of the world, unite and own the companies.

How can Oprah fix this???  LOL  
Title: Franke & Heidecke became insovent
Post by: uaiomex on June 11, 2009, 05:36:12 pm
I don't even own any of this system and I feel totally screwed. I own a Hasselblad V system and can't depart from it. For me waist level finder shooting is another dimension in photography. Hasselblad totally neglected the system that made it exist. I wonder that now that F&H (if confirmed) went down the drain, Hasselblad would be more enticed to mount a decent size sensor in the CFV back.
   
Eduardo
Title: Franke & Heidecke became insovent
Post by: EricWHiss on June 11, 2009, 05:54:00 pm
How many times has the Rollei company gone under and come back?  3?
Title: Franke & Heidecke became insovent
Post by: heinrichvoelkel on June 11, 2009, 05:57:52 pm
as a Rollei owner, I think you're to positive

Title: Franke & Heidecke became insovent
Post by: Czornyj on June 11, 2009, 06:20:45 pm
Quote from: uaiomex
I wonder that now that F&H (if confirmed) went down the drain, Hasselblad would be more enticed to mount a decent size sensor in the CFV back.
I'd rather wonder if Hasselblad won't be next...
Title: Franke & Heidecke became insovent
Post by: Doug Peterson on June 11, 2009, 06:30:54 pm
Quote from: uaiomex
I don't even own any of this system and I feel totally screwed. I own a Hasselblad V system and can't depart from it. For me waist level finder shooting is another dimension in photography. Hasselblad totally neglected the system that made it exist. I wonder that now that F&H (if confirmed) went down the drain, Hasselblad would be more enticed to mount a decent size sensor in the CFV back.

Why wait around for them? You can buy the (already shipping) very large sensor Phase One P65+ to put on your Hassy V system today. As a plus you get Capture One lens corrections for many classic Hasselblad lenses.

Doug Peterson (e-mail Me) (http://mailto:doug@captureintegration.com)
__________________
Head of Technical Services, Capture Integration
Phase One, Canon, Apple, Profoto, Eizo & More
National: 877.217.9870  |  Cell: 740.707.2183
Newsletter: Read Latest or Sign Up (http://www.captureintegration.com/our-company/newsletters/)
Title: Franke & Heidecke became insovent
Post by: Carsten W on June 11, 2009, 06:33:51 pm
It looks bad, but in fact the article hasn't said that the show was over yet, and as already mentioned, Jenoptik owns the rights to the Hy6, so if Franke&Heidecke are too expensive to keep afloat, due to old loans, someone else could theoretically take over. Let's wait and see what happens. The insolvency deadline is July 1st, and the court case is scheduled for the end of July.
Title: Franke & Heidecke became insovent
Post by: mcfoto on June 11, 2009, 07:18:49 pm
You have got to feel for Hans R. Schmid who became a majority share holder in Sept 2008 & lost over 10 m Euros of his own money! When Calumet was clearing out AFi cameras at very low prices a few months ago that was a sign that things were not well. Plus being silent for 3 months does not help either.
Denis
Title: Franke & Heidecke became insovent
Post by: EricWHiss on June 11, 2009, 07:30:35 pm
Quote from: heinrichvoelkel
as a Rollei owner, I think you're to positive


Could be...  you definitely can call me a fan... I did try a bunch of other makes though.  Liked the RZ a lot, but without any of the auto features it was a no go.  I do think the Rollei lenses are better overall than other makes.       I don't have either a hy6 or AFi... have 2 6008 AF bodies and a pile of lenses and accessories.    

So with my bias up front. Let me reiterate my wish -  Resurrection of the Hy6 with phase backs becoming available.  Maybe this juncture will allow new deals to be made.




Title: Franke & Heidecke became insovent
Post by: gwhitf on June 11, 2009, 08:10:24 pm
Quote from: EricWHiss
So with my bias up front. Let me reiterate my wish -  Resurrection of the Hy6 with phase backs becoming available.  Maybe this juncture will allow new deals to be made.

Don't you know that Phase One is wishing they were Catholic, so they could conjure up an annulment with Mamiya! Don't you know they're slapping themselves in the forehead, and making that Homer Simpson "Doh" sound. "Why did we marry the Runt, when we could have married the pick of the litter?" A Phase back on an Hy6; now there's something to get excited about. And for Phase, the commute for the meetings is much more appealing; they could make the meeting and be home by dinnertime.
Title: Franke & Heidecke became insovent
Post by: jing q on June 11, 2009, 09:21:37 pm
Quote from: carstenw
It looks bad, but in fact the article hasn't said that the show was over yet, and as already mentioned, Jenoptik owns the rights to the Hy6, so if Franke&Heidecke are too expensive to keep afloat, due to old loans, someone else could theoretically take over. Let's wait and see what happens. The insolvency deadline is July 1st, and the court case is scheduled for the end of July.

ok you wait and let's see
a company like mamiya needs years just to come out with a single leaf shutter lens and it's still not out
an insolvent company will probably just take another decade to come up with something worthwhile
in the meantime I'll go shoot with a camera system that's actually still in production and being supported.
Title: Franke & Heidecke became insovent
Post by: vgogolak on June 11, 2009, 10:19:31 pm
Quote from: gwhitf
Don't you know that Phase One is wishing they were Catholic, so they could conjure up an annulment with Mamiya! Don't you know they're slapping themselves in the forehead, and making that Homer Simpson "Doh" sound. "Why did we marry the Runt, when we could have married the pick of the litter?" A Phase back on an Hy6; now there's something to get excited about. And for Phase, the commute for the meetings is much more appealing; they could make the meeting and be home by dinnertime.

I don't know if it was due to [one of three theroies] that Phase One did not close on the deal they REALLY wanted; to acquire the Contax 645 line.
[Reasons put forward; 1. Kyocera wanted too much money 2. Kyocera wanted the manufacturing to stay in Japan 3. Phase just didn't have the finances. I sort of think all three...]

Too bad. However, many of us are quite happy with the old Contax..

regards
Victor
Title: Franke & Heidecke became insovent
Post by: Leonardo Barreto on June 11, 2009, 11:28:08 pm
Afi/Hy6 is not better for Phase One than Mamiya because it is the wrong format. All current Phase backs are 645 or smaller. The Afi/Hy6 is 6x6 format so they would be only partially compatible. Mamiya was a major player in MF in the era of film, they only made that --and some golf equipment, I think--. They had a 6x7, 6x6 range finder, a 6x6 twin lens reflex with interchangeable lenses, the 6x7 RB, the RZ 67 and a full 645 system. I think they where one of the first with that format. The AFD is probably the longest in production 645 system. In Japan I saw a Hasselblad that had the Fujifilm logo. That is probably why they have been able to survive where the majority of other camera makers have gone under. I have had 4 different Mamiya systems, from twin lens reflex to RZ II and AFD and I have never had one failed to work.

Development in this field is sloooow probably for a reason. It is a very difficult market with an elite user base. There are probably little resources and mistakes can cost the life of the brand. Mamiya almost went down with the ZD camera and back... Hasselblad gambled with the closing of their system and got more time in the game. Afi/Hy6 continue to play and are sitting at the table. We can only wait and see their next move..
Title: Franke & Heidecke became insovent
Post by: jimgolden on June 12, 2009, 01:13:36 am
i can guarantee it wont be a 6x6 sensor ; )
Title: Franke & Heidecke became insovent
Post by: David Grover / Capture One on June 12, 2009, 02:54:01 am
Quote from: Leonardo Barreto
...In Japan I saw a Hasselblad that had the Fujifilm logo. That is probably why they have been able to survive where the majority of other camera makers have gone under...

This has nothing to do with our 'survival'.  Fuji is a partner to us and we make GX645 bodies for them in Sweden.  Suffice to say they sell in relatively low numbers with the majority of the Japanese market choosing the Hasselblad brand for purchase.

I would prefer to think our 'survival' (and we are doing much more than that) is attributed to the products we make.

As for progress being slow please take a look at the kind of products made as late as 2003 and then what we have today.

David

Title: Franke & Heidecke became insovent
Post by: Dustbak on June 12, 2009, 03:02:31 am
Slow or fast progress is highly subjective and totally depending on the things you are comparing with each other. I think it is safe to say at this moment Hasselblad has made the right moves the last couple of years where the Afi/Hy6 camp have not. It would be sad if this camera system would disappear, I believe it would be a bad thing for the entire MF market which includes both Hasselblad as well as Phase.

As for my opinion on the pace of progress; not nearly fast enough. There are lots of things where I can imagine improvement but I am known to be a very impatient man  
Title: Franke & Heidecke became insovent
Post by: O.Ricter on June 12, 2009, 07:02:21 am
Quote from: gwhitf
I agree with this sentiment. I think you'll begin to see more Top End, and more Bottom End, and less Middle of the Road Beige.

P65, P45; Canon and Nikon. Everything else gets lost in the blur.


I DONT UNDERSTAND YOU THINK PHASE ONE WILL STAY IN BUSINESS??

Did you know that Phase One had a decrease in Turn Over in 2008 of 14 mill EUR?

They are more than 30% down compared to 2007. This is public information!


Title: Franke & Heidecke became insovent
Post by: CBarrett on June 12, 2009, 07:28:33 am
Quote from: O.Ricter
I DONT UNDERSTAND YOU THINK PHASE ONE WILL STAY IN BUSINESS??

Did you know that Phase One had a decrease in Turn Over in 2008 of 14 mill EUR?

They are more than 30% down compared to 2007. This is public information!


Considering the state of the international economy, that's not too surprising.  I expect you're going to see a lot of companies dipping down to a point of no likely return and bouncing back.

I think the P65+ and P40+ are going to do quite well for them.  Of course, I could be a little biased since I just gave them 40k.
Title: Franke & Heidecke became insovent
Post by: Leonardo Barreto on June 12, 2009, 08:52:53 am
Yes, when things are bad is the weakest inhabitants of the ecosystem that get extinct, the ones with the most fat get skinny but inherit the market share of the ones that go away.

There is also a factor in user acceptance of this and any other product and it is a psychological one. We get the equipment that makes us feel more secure in our professional assignments, and why not say it, the most pride for our money. That is a plus of names like Hasselblad. We also want to go with the standard brands because they are the ones that will be there in the future. I wonder if the number of Afi/Hy6 adopters whent up after the insolvency news, or now with more signs of brake down of actual production of the system...

Quote from: CBarrett
Considering the state of the international economy, that's not too surprising.  I expect you're going to see a lot of companies dipping down to a point of no likely return and bouncing back.

I think the P65+ and P40+ are going to do quite well for them.  Of course, I could be a little biased since I just gave them 40k.
Title: Franke & Heidecke became insovent
Post by: ThierryH on June 12, 2009, 09:48:08 am
If I may intervene and give my opinion, I would say that nothing much is said in this "Photoscala" report.

It is presumed that production has stopped, that delivery of products has stopped as well, etc .... without any prove of it or an official announcement or statement.
Even the "Insolvency Period" to be finished by July 01st and the final decision by July 27th are given by some "sources".

Even in the case all the above is correct, there can still be a take-over taking place before any effective closure decision.

I would refrain from taking any conclusion before it is announced by the official way.

Best regards,
Thierry
Title: Franke & Heidecke became insovent
Post by: uaiomex on June 12, 2009, 01:05:58 pm
Two reasons to expect for the right CFV back are the matching V look and no connecting cables but I could live without these features.  I'm waiting because I don't have that kind of money yet. A P65 is waaaay out of my league. To say the truth, my goal these days is to buy a used 22mp back most likely P1. I was considering a used Sinar to later buy a Hy6, but as we all know....
Hey! is that true? Capture One has lens corrections for various CF lenses? I didn't know that. Beautiful, fantastic !.  Which lenses?
Thx
Eduardo

Quote from: dougpetersonci
Why wait around for them? You can buy the (already shipping) very large sensor Phase One P65+ to put on your Hassy V system today. As a plus you get Capture One lens corrections for many classic Hasselblad lenses.

Doug Peterson (e-mail Me) (http://mailto:doug@captureintegration.com)
__________________
Head of Technical Services, Capture Integration
Phase One, Canon, Apple, Profoto, Eizo & More
National: 877.217.9870  |  Cell: 740.707.2183
Newsletter: Read Latest or Sign Up (http://www.captureintegration.com/our-company/newsletters/)
Title: Franke & Heidecke became insovent
Post by: tho_mas on June 12, 2009, 01:30:38 pm
Quote from: uaiomex
Which lenses?
[attachment=14488:c1lens.jpg]
Title: Franke & Heidecke became insovent
Post by: JDG on June 12, 2009, 03:08:17 pm
Quote from: O.Ricter
I DONT UNDERSTAND YOU THINK PHASE ONE WILL STAY IN BUSINESS??

Did you know that Phase One had a decrease in Turn Over in 2008 of 14 mill EUR?

They are more than 30% down compared to 2007. This is public information!


Yes, but you fail to mention that even with down sales they still managed to turn a profit.... the same cannot be said for many companies in these times.
Title: Franke & Heidecke became insovent
Post by: markowich on June 12, 2009, 05:43:00 pm
actualy, i am seriously worried for LEAF. my Aptus 10 with H1 mount was promised for march and has still not been delivered.
the explanation peartree london gave me is that they wanted to build the AFI mount backs first.....
this conveys the feeling that something is utterly wrong with LEAF. i am thinking of changing over to P65.
peter

Quote from: Leonardo Barreto
Yes, when things are bad is the weakest inhabitants of the ecosystem that get extinct, the ones with the most fat get skinny but inherit the market share of the ones that go away.

There is also a factor in user acceptance of this and any other product and it is a psychological one. We get the equipment that makes us feel more secure in our professional assignments, and why not say it, the most pride for our money. That is a plus of names like Hasselblad. We also want to go with the standard brands because they are the ones that will be there in the future. I wonder if the number of Afi/Hy6 adopters whent up after the insolvency news, or now with more signs of brake down of actual production of the system...
Title: Franke & Heidecke became insovent
Post by: Leonardo Barreto on June 12, 2009, 06:54:45 pm
If I was Leaf I would hire Thierry to reassure customers that are thinking on spending large sums of money in times of skinny cows we live in. Just look at how responsive Hasselblad is in this forum. As you say "conveys the feeling  that something is utterly wrong", when you need exactly the opposite...  

Quote from: markowich
actualy, i am seriously worried for LEAF. my Aptus 10 with H1 mount was promised for march and has still not been delivered.
the explanation peartree london gave me is that they wanted to build the AFI mount backs first.....
this conveys the feeling that something is utterly wrong with LEAF. i am thinking of changing over to P65.
peter
Title: Franke & Heidecke became insovent
Post by: H1/A75 Guy on June 12, 2009, 07:45:51 pm
Quote from: Leonardo Barreto
If I was Leaf I would hire Thierry to reassure customers that are thinking on spending large sums of money in times of skinny cows we live in. Just look at how responsive Hasselblad is in this forum. As you say "conveys the feeling  that something is utterly wrong", when you need exactly the opposite...
I don't know if Leaf needs Thierry for re-assurance. I still am happy as a clam with my AFi II 7 sans dedicated focusing screen for the WLF. I'm still happy with my Polaroid 600SE (Goose) and how long ago did they stop making that? It's just cameras, it's just money. When you die you go with nothing.

David

Anything is better than that Hasselblad POC (Piece of Crap).
Title: Franke & Heidecke became insovent
Post by: uaiomex on June 12, 2009, 08:00:49 pm
Thanks so much for the chart. There are 2 CF 40mm, the IF and the non IF.  There are 2 CF 50mm. The one with one focusing ring (older) and the one with 2 focusing rings. Which one? Both?  I also noticed the CF 150 is not on the list. Maybe it doesn't need any correction. Thanks
Eduardo

Quote from: tho_mas
[attachment=14488:c1lens.jpg]
Title: Franke & Heidecke became insovent
Post by: AndreNapier on June 12, 2009, 08:09:20 pm
David,
It is great to finally hear that someone is happy with the AFI. At least all the R&D money did not go for nothing.
I am also happy because I got my AFI to Rz adapter. That makes two happy AFI users.
andre
Title: Franke & Heidecke became insovent
Post by: Graham Mitchell on June 12, 2009, 08:49:52 pm
Quote from: uaiomex
I was considering a used Sinar to later buy a Hy6, but as we all know....

Well we don't know anything yet! I guess we will in a month or so.
Title: Franke & Heidecke became insovent
Post by: Graham Mitchell on June 12, 2009, 08:51:29 pm
Quote from: AndreNapier
David,
It is great to finally hear that someone is happy with the AFI. At least all the R&D money did not go for nothing.
I am also happy because I got my AFI to Rz adapter. That makes two happy AFI users.
andre

There are many happy users here. I'm still planning to get one when I can, assuming a solution is worked out for F&H and production continues.
Title: Franke & Heidecke became insovent
Post by: tho_mas on June 13, 2009, 05:56:03 am
Quote from: ThierryH
It is presumed that production has stopped, that delivery of products has stopped as well, etc .... without any prove of it or an official announcement or statement.
without an official announcement, yes. And without any disclaimer as well. The silcence is deafening...
Title: Franke & Heidecke became insovent
Post by: tho_mas on June 13, 2009, 05:57:01 am
Quote from: uaiomex
Which one? Both?
I don't know, sorry. Maybe Doug or someone else knows
Title: Franke & Heidecke became insovent
Post by: ThierryH on June 13, 2009, 06:36:47 am
Silence and lack of information always frustrate journalists, making them write, comment and ultimaltely draw conclusions.

Best regards,
Thierry

Quote from: tho_mas
without an official announcement, yes. And without any disclaimer as well. The silcence is deafening...
Title: Franke & Heidecke became insovent
Post by: heinrichvoelkel on June 13, 2009, 07:06:50 am
Quote from: ThierryH
Silence and lack of information always frustrate journalists, making them write, comment and ultimaltely draw conclusions.

Best regards,
Thierry

It is pretty easy that way? Isn't it.
As a Rollei owner I don't blame the journalists, but Franke themselfes, Leaf and Sinar as well (what will happen if I invest into the Sinar HY6 as planned)

"Kurzarbeit" can be verified with one call, as you need permission by the Labor department to send your workers into Kurzarbeit, as the federal state pays 60 % of their wages for the moment...I guess I call Franke & Heidecke on monday myself, just to know....
Title: Franke & Heidecke became insovent
Post by: ThierryH on June 13, 2009, 07:26:50 am
Dear Heinrich,

this is all very clear to me. All I want to say is that ALL options are open currently, and this specific thread seems to mention only the option "bankrupcy" and the company closing/disapearing.

Nothing says that this will be the case and I would refrain from commenting in one direction, although I can understand the frustrations and worries of customers and potential ones.

Best regards,
Thierry

Quote from: heinrichvoelkel
It is pretty easy that way? Isn't it.
As a Rollei owner I don't blame the journalists, but Franke themselfes, Leaf and Sinar as well (what will happen if I invest into the Sinar HY6 as planned)

"Kurzarbeit" can be verified with one call, as you need permission by the Labor department to send your workers into Kurzarbeit, as the federal state pays 60 % of their wages for the moment...I guess I call Franke & Heidecke on monday myself, just to know....
Title: Franke & Heidecke became insovent
Post by: AndreNapier on June 13, 2009, 01:44:19 pm
Quote from: foto-z
There are many happy users here. I'm still planning to get one when I can, assuming a solution is worked out for F&H and production continues.
Hey Graham,
Mind you that it is very easy to be happy thinking of something you are hoping to get in the future.
I was very happy with my recent vacation until we arrived to the hotel.
Andre
Title: Franke & Heidecke became insovent
Post by: rainer_v on June 13, 2009, 02:17:32 pm
Quote from: AndreNapier
Hey Graham,
Mind you that it is very easy to be happy thinking of something you are hoping to get in the future.
I was very happy with my recent vacation until we arrived to the hotel.
Andre
 

Title: Franke & Heidecke became insovent
Post by: paul_jones on June 14, 2009, 05:05:55 am
Quote from: tho_mas
[attachment=14488:c1lens.jpg]

phase one claims to have created this sophisticated correction software, but they don't quite know what focal length the hasselblad lens collection has- a HC110????    

paul
Title: Franke & Heidecke became insovent
Post by: Steve Hendrix on June 14, 2009, 11:19:56 am
Quote from: paul_jones
phase one claims to have created this sophisticated correction software, but they don't quite know what focal length the hasselblad lens collection has- a HC110????    

paul


Ha! Good catch Paul. I'm sure the correction will be noted in the Read Me file of 4.8.2...  


Steve Hendrix
Phase One
Title: Franke & Heidecke became insovent
Post by: paratom on June 14, 2009, 01:47:53 pm
Quote from: jing q
that's the understatement of the year
how about: hy6 and afi users, you're screwed.

As a Hy6 owner I dont feel srewesd until my Hy6 shows a problem and needs repair and I cant get repair.
Today I feel more like I still own the MF camera which fits best for me (specially nice viewfinder, rotating back and very nice lenses)
Good thing I have got my stuff together.

Frankly, I hope the Hy6-system will survive and of course I am kind of afraid what happens if I need repair. I dont feel srewed though. I enjoy using the system while i wait for further facts.



Title: Franke & Heidecke became insovent
Post by: paratom on June 14, 2009, 01:57:23 pm
Quote from: jing q
ok you wait and let's see
a company like mamiya needs years just to come out with a single leaf shutter lens and it's still not out
an insolvent company will probably just take another decade to come up with something worthwhile
in the meantime I'll go shoot with a camera system that's actually still in production and being supported.
They wont need another decade because all Hy6 lenses are leaf shutter.

The interesting thing is there are still images coming out of my Hy6 even though they are insolvent.
Title: Franke & Heidecke became insovent
Post by: Doug Peterson on June 14, 2009, 03:27:31 pm
Quote from: paul_jones
phase one claims to have created this sophisticated correction software, but they don't quite know what focal length the hasselblad lens collection has- a HC110????  

It's no mistake; Phase is just so good that they correct lenses that Hasselblad doesn't even make!

In all seriousness; just a typo.
Title: Franke & Heidecke became insovent
Post by: jing q on June 15, 2009, 02:21:19 am
Quote from: paratom
They wont need another decade because all Hy6 lenses are leaf shutter.

The interesting thing is there are still images coming out of my Hy6 even though they are insolvent.

haha yeah I mean I really like the Rollei lenses. I used to own a 6008i myself, beautiful. It's just that the lack of a wider lens and lack of development+reduced cost in the AF lenses means it's a hodgepodge solution professionally.alas...
Title: Franke & Heidecke became insovent
Post by: paratom on June 15, 2009, 03:00:57 am
Quote from: jing q
haha yeah I mean I really like the Rollei lenses. I used to own a 6008i myself, beautiful. It's just that the lack of a wider lens and lack of development+reduced cost in the AF lenses means it's a hodgepodge solution professionally.alas...
I agree that there is some limitation with 40mm being the widest lens for the Hy6. Thats something one needs to decide if it is acceptable or not. Some people may not need wider or may use a tech camera anyways for wider things, but I assume for others it could be a real disadvantage.
Besides this I find the Lens range very nice with many options (between fast and big glass or little slower but smaller glass,...40,50,80Xenotar, 110 Zeiss, 150, 180/2.8) all very nice lenses IMO.
I cross my fingers for the Hy6 system and also for F&H - I am convinced there are many people at F&H with a lot of knowledge.

Title: Franke & Heidecke became insovent
Post by: Graham Mitchell on June 15, 2009, 03:39:52 am
Quote from: paratom
I agree that there is some limitation with 40mm being the widest lens for the Hy6.

True, I am not quite sure what their strategy is yet. Larger sensors are just as good as wider lenses in terms of FOV, and we have heard that the upcoming 35mm will cover 6x6, but none of this will pay off until there is a 645 or 6x6 sensor for the Hy6/AFi. (I know Leaf has that 56mm wide sensor but it's an odd ratio.) A 28mm lens on a Hasselblad, limited to 48x36mm sensors, is equivalent to 33mm on 645 so the 35mm will more or less even things up.

I personally don't think that sensors will be larger than 645 for many years, so a rotating 645 back would be a great match for the Hy6, BUT any new lenses should not have to cover full 6x6 - this adds unnecessary weight and cost and FOV limits. Perhaps Schneider/F&H will see the light and release some sort of 30mm lens which covers 645 only. I won't hold my breath though.

So my advice to Sinar/Jenoptik/F&H would be: get a 645 sensor out, preferably like the wonderful eSprit65 but with larger sensor, and get that 35mm lens to market. That should finally silence the critics.

Title: Franke & Heidecke became insovent
Post by: tho_mas on June 15, 2009, 07:18:25 am
Quote from: foto-z
So my advice to Sinar/Jenoptik/F&H would be: get a 645 sensor out
I think that would seal their fate. It would be very easy to get a 645 sensor for the Hy6: they just have to open the platform for Phase Backs. They should have done it from the very beginning - I still assume they would have sold some (maybe many) more Hy6s.
As a similar example: I would have considered the arTec as I find it a really well thought out and excellent built camera. Maybe the off-center tripod mount and the size would have inhibited me to buy one... I don't know. Be that as it may. But when I looked at the specs I couldn't find Contax Mount. What? Do they think I sell my entire equipment just to use the arTec??? Sure, someone like Gottschalt could cut out a custom interface... but what a struggle. No, thanks.
Title: Franke & Heidecke became insovent
Post by: Leonardo Barreto on June 15, 2009, 03:18:44 pm
This critic says: too little too late. You should do exactly all that brainstorming at the first stage in the creation of a new system, not after when you are insolvent and specially when there are articles about production brake down.

foto-z, otherwise you have made a good analysis, maybe you are becoming one of the critics yourself but don't know it yet...

Quote from: foto-z
True, I am not quite sure what their strategy is yet. Larger sensors are just as good as wider lenses in terms of FOV, and we have heard that the upcoming 35mm will cover 6x6, but none of this will pay off until there is a 645 or 6x6 sensor for the Hy6/AFi. (I know Leaf has that 56mm wide sensor but it's an odd ratio.) A 28mm lens on a Hasselblad, limited to 48x36mm sensors, is equivalent to 33mm on 645 so the 35mm will more or less even things up.

I personally don't think that sensors will be larger than 645 for many years, so a rotating 645 back would be a great match for the Hy6, BUT any new lenses should not have to cover full 6x6 - this adds unnecessary weight and cost and FOV limits. Perhaps Schneider/F&H will see the light and release some sort of 30mm lens which covers 645 only. I won't hold my breath though.

So my advice to Sinar/Jenoptik/F&H would be: get a 645 sensor out, preferably like the wonderful eSprit65 but with larger sensor, and get that 35mm lens to market. That should finally silence the critics.
Title: Franke & Heidecke became insovent
Post by: paratom on June 15, 2009, 04:58:38 pm
Quote from: Leonardo Barreto
This critic says: too little too late. You should do exactly all that brainstorming at the first stage in the creation of a new system, not after when you are insolvent and specially when there are articles about production brake down.

foto-z, otherwise you have made a good analysis, maybe you are becoming one of the critics yourself but don't know it yet...

Besides the 35mm which has not appeared I dont see a lack of brainstorming. IMO the Hy6 is a concept which is not just a slightly modified existing body but based on brainstorming and a new approach (maybe the user interface is not to everybodies taste) Its a system which combines the classical square viewfinder and posibility to use a WLF combined with a modern metering system, rotating back and AF. I understand that some people prefer a more DLSLR-like more compact approach - I myself think the Hy6 is a well thought system and a very good option.
If - and I hope it wont happen - but if the Hy6-concept will not continued I believe it was not a problem of the product but a problem of marketing, eventually customer relationship (which is good here in Germany but maybe not in the US?) and maybe also regarding structure of cost etc.

Maybe not too little too late but too much too early
Title: Franke & Heidecke became insovent
Post by: Leonardo Barreto on June 15, 2009, 06:36:50 pm
This LL article is a very interesting story that may relate to what is happening to Hasselblad, Rollei, Kodak and the others...

The Rise of Digital imaging and the Fall of the Old Camera industry
By Christian Sandström



http://www.luminous-landscape.com/essays/rise-fall.shtml (http://www.luminous-landscape.com/essays/rise-fall.shtml)

(http://www.luminous-landscape.com/images-92/image009.jpg)
(image redirected for the purpose of non commercial discussion)
In Munich, Germany, the former Agfa building was demolished in February 2008. (Photo: Flickr)
Title: Franke & Heidecke became insovent
Post by: H1/A75 Guy on June 15, 2009, 07:47:59 pm
Quote from: Leonardo Barreto

http://www.luminous-landscape.com/essays/rise-fall.shtml (http://www.luminous-landscape.com/essays/rise-fall.shtml)
They must have got that demo team on the cheap. Buildings were supposed to fall in on themselves (implode), not fall over.
Title: Franke & Heidecke became insovent
Post by: Leonardo Barreto on June 15, 2009, 10:49:10 pm
... but isn't that a grate photo? it represents a lot. Wasn't AGFA one of the first developers of transparency/slide film? that was not so long ago, and now it is coming down and the public is shooting the event with their cellphones, digicams and uploading them to Flker and Facebook.... probably one generation from black and white to color slide and ... no more color slides.

The article talks about traditional camera companies knowing that the perfect storm of digital was coming but not being able to cope with it because it was bigger and swifter than their worst fears.

They pace of the change, the tools and know how that they had, it all brought disaster to a lot of them. He used the example of an octopus that is the perfect animal in the water but no good outside of it...

Rollei, Sinar and F&H are a few of this companies that had to transition from mechanics and optics (where they are state of the art) to electronics and software, they had to also move at a maddening speed to produce a better model every year....

the result is never as graphic as in this image, but often as catastrophic as this building falling ....

(http://www.luminous-landscape.com/images-92/image009.jpg)



Quote from: H1/A75 Guy
They must have got that demo team on the cheap. Buildings were supposed to fall in on themselves (implode), not fall over.
Title: Franke & Heidecke became insovent
Post by: Geoffrey on June 17, 2009, 06:05:03 am
Quote from: Leonardo Barreto
..The article talks about traditional camera companies knowing that the perfect storm of digital was coming but not being able to cope with it because it was bigger and swifter than their worst fears.

They pace of the change, the tools and know how that they had, it all brought disaster to a lot of them. He used the example of an octopus that is the perfect animal in the water but no good outside of it...

Rollei, Sinar and F&H are a few of this companies that had to transition from mechanics and optics (where they are state of the art) to electronics and software, they had to also move at a maddening speed to produce a better model every year....

the result is never as graphic as in this image, but often as catastrophic as this building falling ....

(http://www.luminous-landscape.com/images-92/image009.jpg)

The irony is that both Hassy and Rollei did see the storm coming and did respond. They just missed the timing - in Rollei's case (I believe) it was a strange situation in that they were too far ahead of the curve: in the 1990's they were making digital scan back connections, and trying to find a home for digital backs (6mp) in their lineup. Not highly promoted, and mostly in Europe, but there it was. In the marketplace.

one can imagine the situation where they spent whatever funds they had too soon, and for (in today's terms) an insuficient product. Were they to have worked on connections for backs about 5-10 years later, and really opened themselves up that way, perhaps the situation would have been quite different. Its really unfortunate when the commitment was made, the money spent, and the timing was just too soon.

One has to rethink the "leading" edge (or is it bleeding edge?) and the model for timing: unlike the classic tech'l model, of research-oriented companies thoughtfully being 10-15 years ahead of the curve, and bringing products to fruition, the new "digital model" seems to be that you bide your time, find a good partner, and maybe even be a year behind the curve - so you can deliver your product successfully, reliably, and cost-effectively. Its certainly a different way of thinking.

So the older European companies have had to adapt - and be more nimble in their approach to partnering. As we've seen, its not been without mishaps. Interesting times.
Title: Franke & Heidecke became insovent
Post by: geesbert on June 17, 2009, 12:50:45 pm
Quote from: H1/A75 Guy
They must have got that demo team on the cheap. Buildings were supposed to fall in on themselves (implode), not fall over.


If you knew the site, you'd see why it had to fall this way. there are housing estates to the left, a big open plane and an urban highway to the right
Title: Franke & Heidecke became insovent
Post by: Leonardo Barreto on June 17, 2009, 08:04:40 pm
Shortly after a chemical way to fix an image was developed in the 1840s --if I remember this ok--, one of the first casualties was the booming industry of miniature portrait studios. Before that, if you where going to war, or shipping to a colony at another part of the world, a sitting for a miniature -portable- portrait was high on the TO DO list. Photography could do this, so the industry was wiped out. I suppose that a large quantity of miniature painters probably transitioned to the new media.

It is probably difficult for Agfa and Konica to change since film is what they produced and now is not needed anymore.

Rollei wiped out Graflex business when they came out with a camera that was considered more practical by photojournalists ... until Leica discovered that you could use even less film and shoot faster...

Where is Graflex now? they where the inspiration to Mamiya, you can say that the 67 RB is a Japanese Graflex, but they came up with a new idea: the 645 format...

Rollei did not see the 645 format coming, and Hasselblad did.

Now. How much life has the 645 format have? It is much more difficult to see the future than to be a critic of the past.

After all nobody saw the internet coming. Did we?

Quote from: Geoffrey
The irony is that both Hassy and Rollei did see the storm coming and did respond. They just missed the timing - in Rollei's case (I believe) it was a strange situation in that they were too far ahead of the curve: in the 1990's they were making digital scan back connections, and trying to find a home for digital backs (6mp) in their lineup. Not highly promoted, and mostly in Europe, but there it was. In the marketplace.

one can imagine the situation where they spent whatever funds they had too soon, and for (in today's terms) an insuficient product. Were they to have worked on connections for backs about 5-10 years later, and really opened themselves up that way, perhaps the situation would have been quite different. Its really unfortunate when the commitment was made, the money spent, and the timing was just too soon.

One has to rethink the "leading" edge (or is it bleeding edge?) and the model for timing: unlike the classic tech'l model, of research-oriented companies thoughtfully being 10-15 years ahead of the curve, and bringing products to fruition, the new "digital model" seems to be that you bide your time, find a good partner, and maybe even be a year behind the curve - so you can deliver your product successfully, reliably, and cost-effectively. Its certainly a different way of thinking.

So the older European companies have had to adapt - and be more nimble in their approach to partnering. As we've seen, its not been without mishaps. Interesting times.
Title: Franke & Heidecke became insovent
Post by: PeterA on June 18, 2009, 08:49:51 am
Quote from: Leonardo Barreto
.......

After all nobody saw the internet coming. Did we?

Depends on how you define 'internet' - closed system but public  bulletin Boards were around for a decade or two before the internet arrived ..
Financial Market electronic boards were there decades before the internet - two way communication in cyber world via puters - decade before the internet started.

Bleeding edge is always the high ground taken by those who need the absolute latest - or those who in using the bleeding edge - profit the most..

MFD camera systems stopped being bleeding edge years ago - their own success seeded their own failure - instead of developing a larger market - they focused on stupidly high margins on low unit sales..
a typical and arrogant European way of doing business btw..

Succeeded in defining a niche so narrow that the CaNikons were happy to let the MFD boof heads play in their tiny corner - for now..meanwhile each generation of high end CaNikon creeps closer and closer to delivering everything the pro user market needs and more..

Silly little companies milking an ever diminishing market..all of a sudden discovering that if they lower prices their volumes actually increase ---DOH! Sadly maybe too little too late...



Title: Franke & Heidecke became insovent
Post by: ThierryH on June 18, 2009, 09:13:29 am
Dear Peter,

with all due respect (and you know that I have for you), things are/were not as you describe it, margins over the top. The margins have been those of a minimum to make the company(ies) be just profitable and not loosing money. In fact, many tentatives have been made, by many players in this field, to reduce the prices, often selling at or even under real costs, years back and without any significant increase in sales numbers. Trade-ins and refurbished units have been proposed for as long as the beginning of digital, by the different manufacturers, and it has proven to be a financial "headache" after a while, for all, understand manufacturers AND distributors/dealers, without any other success than an increase in market share for some (but still with the "headache").

If mistake there is, it must be searched elsewhere, but not in the margins.

Best regards,
Thierry

Quote from: PeterA
Depends on how you define 'internet' - closed system but public  bulletin Boards were around for a decade or two before the internet arrived ..
Financial Market electronic boards were there decades before the internet - two way communication in cyber world via puters - decade before the internet started.

Bleeding edge is always the high ground taken by those who need the absolute latest - or those who in using the bleeding edge - profit the most..

MFD camera systems stopped being bleeding edge years ago - their own success seeded their own failure - instead of developing a larger market - they focused on stupidly high margins on low unit sales..
a typical and arrogant European way of doing business btw..

Succeeded in defining a niche so narrow that the CaNikons were happy to let the MFD boof heads play in their tiny corner - for now..meanwhile each generation of high end CaNikon creeps closer and closer to delivering everything the pro user market needs and more..

Silly little companies milking an ever diminishing market..all of a sudden discovering that if they lower prices their volumes actually increase ---DOH! Sadly maybe too little too late...
Title: Franke & Heidecke became insovent
Post by: Steve Hendrix on June 18, 2009, 09:48:55 am
Quote from: PeterA
Silly little companies milking an ever diminishing market..all of a sudden discovering that if they lower prices their volumes actually increase ---DOH! Sadly maybe too little too late...


How do you know volumes increased? And also, increased volumes do not guarantee increased profitability, the factor of increase has to be dramatic to maintain even the same level of profitability, given the amount of price reductions we've seen. Significant financial stress can be generated if projected volume increases are not met. While Phase One did not initiate these substantial price reductions, we have made competitive price adjustments of late. But initially we resisted because we felt quite sure the volume would not be made up - especially given the world's economic climate - in order to retain profitability. By this action we remained profitable (and continue to be).


Steve Hendrix
Phase One
Title: Franke & Heidecke became insovent
Post by: jing q on June 18, 2009, 10:13:49 am
Quote from: ThierryH
Dear Peter,

with all due respect (and you know that I have for you), things are/were not as you describe it, margins over the top. The margins have been those of a minimum to make the company(ies) be just profitable and not loosing money. In fact, many tentatives have been made, by many players in this field, to reduce the prices, often selling at or even under real costs, years back and without any significant increase in sales numbers. Trade-ins and refurbished units have been proposed for as long as the beginning of digital, by the different manufacturers, and it has proven to be a financial "headache" after a while, for all, understand manufacturers AND distributors/dealers, without any other success than an increase in market share for some (but still with the "headache").

If mistake there is, it must be searched elsewhere, but not in the margins.

Best regards,
Thierry

I think if the margins were insufficient then perhaps one needs to look into the business structure and how much fat there is in the company that makes the manufacturing of digital backs so expensive when the japanese are making cameras at a fraction of the cost.

Costs of buying from european manufacturers will always be much more expensive, perhaps there is something to be said about outsourcing production.

And if the argument is that quality control is an issue when production is outsourced, well I've only had a Canon fail on me once, 3 years after hard usage, whereas I had to send a Leaf back for replacement twice for serious problems right from the start. (noted, that Leaf is an Israeli company. But general fears about outsourcing production usually involve QC worries in Asian countries)

One starts to wonder if Hasselblad changed their business mentality too after being bought over by a Hong Kong company, Shriro.
Title: Franke & Heidecke became insovent
Post by: rainer_v on June 18, 2009, 11:04:26 am
for me all the companies show an incredible lack of practical knowledge, which is at the same time astonishing and incredible. they need one,two or three photographers which are experienced and professional and to whom they trust, not hundreds of opinions which is what they try to collect and to filter.
to handle this different was what happened in my relation with sinar ( they trusted in my opinion/advices after some years of receiving input as important as brumbaer tools, stefans centerfold algorythm and many "details" ) and the results is now i.m.o. by far the best professional system for digital arcitecture photography ( my humble opinion ) ,- the only one too which is made by  one company from camera over back to software.

but what i mean above is:

how is it possile that phase one removed their lcc correction from dng files in newer sotware?
how is it possible that hasselblad still ignores and neglect the color shifts produced by shift lenses and not offering a solution which works 1005 colorshiftfree?
how is it possible that leaf didnt ever resolved completely thier centerfold issue, just using the ( i cal it ) workaround of inverting whitefiles to subtract it?
how can alpa say that there is no need for a sliding back?
why arca dont have a website?
what is linhof thinking building a nice new architecture camera without fixed infinity points so one has to focus for every infinty image again with loupe ?
why sinar didnt build a camera as the artec years ago? why they sold years only software which didnt allow to remove colorcasts on location?
why never was a batch workflow in any software for correcting color shifts in software till SH and me created the brumbaer workflow and sinar became convinced to put in together a similar thing in exposure?
many whys, and each of it is absolutely fundamental. i am sure that in other fields of photography there are much more ? to ask.

how can expect these companies to gain big enough professional market, delivering not ready thought products for very high prices? i am not surprised at all about whats happening now in the market, i expected this earlier. i am more surprised that so many photographers are contently working with their mf gear.
Title: Franke & Heidecke became insovent
Post by: Leonardo Barreto on June 18, 2009, 03:44:42 pm
[attachment=14631:image009.jpg]

or mabe the world is falling and the camera industry is not?
Title: Franke & Heidecke became insovent
Post by: pcunite on June 18, 2009, 04:10:33 pm
Quote from: rainer_v
For me all the companies show an incredible lack of practical knowledge, which is at the same time astonishing and incredible.

I agree. How could Leica even think of releasing the S2 without Live View? If I where to purchase the camera, it would be sitting on a tripod over half it's life.
Title: Franke & Heidecke became insovent
Post by: TMARK on June 18, 2009, 04:26:21 pm
Quote from: rainer_v
for me all the companies show an incredible lack of practical knowledge, which is at the same time astonishing and incredible. they need one,two or three photographers which are experienced and professional and to whom they trust, not hundreds of opinions which is what they try to collect and to filter.
to handle this different was what happened in my relation with sinar and me ( they trusted in my opinion/advices after some years of receiving input as important as brumbaer tools, stefans centerfold algorythm and much more details ) and the results is now i.m.o. by far the best professional system for digital arcitecture photography,- not to say the only one which really works out of one hand from camera over back to software without that there are mad compromises or workarounds.

but what i mean above is:

how is it possile that phase one removed their lcc correction from dng files in newer sotware?
how is it possible that hasselblad still ignores and neglect the color shifts produced by shift lenses and not offering a solution which works 1005 colorshiftfree?
how is it possible that leaf didnt ever resolved completely thier centerfold issue, just using the ( i cal it ) workaround of inverting whitefiles to subtract it?
how can alpa say that there is no need for a sliding back?
why arca dont have a website?
what is linhof thinking building a nice new architecture camera without fixed infinity points so one has to focus for every infinty image again with loupe ?
why sinar didnt build a camera as the artec years ago? why they sold years only software which didnt allow to remove colorcasts omn location?
why never was a batch workflow in any software for correcting color shifts in software till SH and me created the brumbaer workflow and sinar became convinced to let me show them how to do a similar thing in exposure?
many whys, and each of it is absolutely fundamental. i am sure that in other fields of photography there are much more ? to ask.

how can expect these companies to gain big enough professional market, delivering not ready thought products for very high prices? i am not surprised at all about whats happening now in the market, i expected this earlier. i am more surprised that so many photographers are contently working with their mf gear.

WARNING, LONG RANT

Amen Brother Rainer.  I think you and SH's involvement with Sinar produced the best digital architecture system available.  Sinar is the clear leader in this field.  What baffels me is why the big players never had a similar collaboration with fashion, interior, tabletop product shooters.  I mean a real collaboration, not a product endorsement. Phase had JR do a shoot for them but did they call up JR when planning out C1 4 or the P65?  I don't think so.  Did Sinar?  They seemed to have listened with the ESpirit 65, but I've never seen one, or even heard of anyone using one.  Its almost like a myth, a Unicorn of a fashion shooter's camera.  Leaf seems to have color issues for fashion/portrait worked out, and the S series backs are fast enough, but I still hate Leaf Capture, even though its solid.  I usually use LRoom if its for press, and LC just for tethering. In any case, the main problem I see is that these companies have primarily worked on their backs and let the camera side and work flow languish.  Phase sort of dropped the ball with C1 4, but its still best of the bunch, which when you consider the manufacturers' software in general, isn't saying THAT much.  Blad is in their own world, and its not a bad place to be if you like the H system.  

The main problem is simply this:  all of the back makers products somehow, one way or another, get in the way of just making a picture.  Either the camera is a piece of shiznit (Mamiya AFd series with the shutter lag is a pig with digital, nice with film, the H is just awkward with any lens other than the 80), the back isn't fast enough, software stability, no in camera jpegs, non-compatability with LR/ACR, dropped frames, color casts, half assed solutions or expensive solutions, all of these things put the gear in the forfront, rather than the creative process.  I'd rather spend time lighting than keeping track of a botched renaming job, or talking and interacting with the subject than explaining to the client why there is a color shift, why the preview looks like crap, why we lost some frames, etc.  In frustration I slapped on a film back for my AFd one time and I lost myself in the work, not in the gear.  It was liberating.  Using a 1ds gets you to the same mental state:  a Canon or Nikon melts into the background, letting you work.  That being said, I loved my P30+ IQ, hated the camera it was attched to (AFd).  In order to put it on an RZ, I would have to use wakeup cables and a dead plate (expensive and cumbersome) or buy a RZ ProIID with the same buggy, crappy, slow digital communication protocal as the AFd, for an extra $2k.  It also eats batteries, and you still need an adaper plate, for another $700.  This was unacceptable to me. Sold the P30+, started shooting film again.  I later bought a Leaf 54s from a friend for under $6k with a H to RZ plate, and now I have a workable system with an "obsolete" back attached to an "obsolete" camera.  The question the back makers should ask, based on my experience, is why the best workable solution to a working photographer involves product that is no longer currently available from a manufacturer.  The answer is because it works.

In many ways the Hy6 is the perfect solution, but too late.  Everyone who wanted a DB already bought a Phase/Leaf back in a dedicated mount, and invested in lenses, extension tubes, etc. for their camera, or went H.  The Hy6, while compelling, isn't worth the substantial hit to the bottom line involved in switching systems.  I would love to buy a Hy6, but it just does not offer much over my RZ/Leaf 54s, which, all in, cost less than a 1ds3 w/o a lens.  I really wish all of the players in this market the best of luck.  Unfortunately they are all too small to be bailed out.
Title: Franke & Heidecke became insovent
Post by: Leonardo Barreto on June 18, 2009, 06:40:10 pm
This thread has 35,000 views    

There is probably more exposure here than in a trade show...

Can I ask you -- 35,000 viewers--, : Who are you?--
Title: Franke & Heidecke became insovent
Post by: PeterA on June 18, 2009, 07:30:59 pm
Hi Thierry,

Seriously - no disrespect at any single person or company is meant..sometimes I say things with harsh words. However as a person who earns their living understanding good and bad economics and busines models - the MFD industry is a classic case study of failures on many levels. It is a shame because teh technology promises and in many cases delivers image quality and relative ease of use in workflow that is liberating. I am quite upset about teh prospect of great companies like Sinar - not beeing able to continue. I am not saying that Sinar wont continue - but i am concerned that photographers will be one day deprived of the great tools that Sinar and some others produce.

As has been said above by Rainer and others - there has been a mismatch between promise and delivery in too many important things concerning workflow. Now that many of the issues are being adresed - we also have teh worst economic conditions in living memory to deal with. Now we are seeing 'value' emerge in pricing at much more realistic levels - from all manufacturers. If this was managed a few years ago - the quality differential between MFD and 35m combined with pricing - would have made a huge difference in size of market.

Anyway - I think the industry situation is sad - very sad for photographers and even sadder for the people who work in these companies.

I wont argue high school economics with you Mr Hendricks - you seem to have a bee in your bonnett. Suffice to say - current pricing is much more likely to attract users - than past pricing. It takes time to build volume at any price. If there were too many players - then reducing prices faster is teh ONLY strategy that can win. This is basic strategy my friend. Of course it is painful but industry rationalisation is always painful.

The real question MFD cpmpanies shoudl ask themselves is "WHY isnt teh global market larger "?

The amswer to that question is obvious to users who do cost/cvalue analysis - compound this disfuctional equation by user unfriendliness in many areas constantly referred to. and you have you teh answer. it aint rocket science.

With respect
Pete

Quote from: ThierryH
Dear Peter,

with all due respect (and you know that I have for you), things are/were not as you describe it, margins over the top. The margins have been those of a minimum to make the company(ies) be just profitable and not loosing money. In fact, many tentatives have been made, by many players in this field, to reduce the prices, often selling at or even under real costs, years back and without any significant increase in sales numbers. Trade-ins and refurbished units have been proposed for as long as the beginning of digital, by the different manufacturers, and it has proven to be a financial "headache" after a while, for all, understand manufacturers AND distributors/dealers, without any other success than an increase in market share for some (but still with the "headache").

If mistake there is, it must be searched elsewhere, but not in the margins.

Best regards,
Thierry
Title: Franke & Heidecke became insovent
Post by: uaiomex on June 18, 2009, 07:48:13 pm
Geesuzz TMark!  This makes the 5D2 look like it was made by Saint Peter himself.
Eduardo

Quote from: TMARK
WARNING, LONG RANT

Amen Brother Rainer.  I think you and SH's involvement with Sinar produced the best digital architecture system available.  Sinar is the clear leader in this field.  What baffels me is why the big players never had a similar collaboration with fashion, interior, tabletop product shooters.  I mean a real collaboration, not a product endorsement. Phase had JR do a shoot for them but did they call up JR when planning out C1 4 or the P65?  I don't think so.  Did Sinar?  They seemed to have listened with the ESpirit 65, but I've never seen one, or even heard of anyone using one.  Its almost like a myth, a Unicorn of a fashion shooter's camera.  Leaf seems to have color issues for fashion/portrait worked out, and the S series backs are fast enough, but I still hate Leaf Capture, even though its solid.  I usually use LRoom if its for press, and LC just for tethering. In any case, the main problem I see is that these companies have primarily worked on their backs and let the camera side and work flow languish.  Phase sort of dropped the ball with C1 4, but its still best of the bunch, which when you consider the manufacturers' software in general, isn't saying THAT much.  Blad is in their own world, and its not a bad place to be if you like the H system.  

The main problem is simply this:  all of the back makers products somehow, one way or another, get in the way of just making a picture.  Either the camera is a piece of shiznit (Mamiya AFd series with the shutter lag is a pig with digital, nice with film, the H is just awkward with any lens other than the 80), the back isn't fast enough, software stability, no in camera jpegs, non-compatability with LR/ACR, dropped frames, color casts, half assed solutions or expensive solutions, all of these things put the gear in the forfront, rather than the creative process.  I'd rather spend time lighting than keeping track of a botched renaming job, or talking and interacting with the subject than explaining to the client why there is a color shift, why the preview looks like crap, why we lost some frames, etc.  In frustration I slapped on a film back for my AFd one time and I lost myself in the work, not in the gear.  It was liberating.  Using a 1ds gets you to the same mental state:  a Canon or Nikon melts into the background, letting you work.  That being said, I loved my P30+ IQ, hated the camera it was attched to (AFd).  In order to put it on an RZ, I would have to use wakeup cables and a dead plate (expensive and cumbersome) or buy a RZ ProIID with the same buggy, crappy, slow digital communication protocal as the AFd, for an extra $2k.  It also eats batteries, and you still need an adaper plate, for another $700.  This was unacceptable to me. Sold the P30+, started shooting film again.  I later bought a Leaf 54s from a friend for under $6k with a H to RZ plate, and now I have a workable system with an "obsolete" back attached to an "obsolete" camera.  The question the back makers should ask, based on my experience, is why the best workable solution to a working photographer involves product that is no longer currently available from a manufacturer.  The answer is because it works.

In many ways the Hy6 is the perfect solution, but too late.  Everyone who wanted a DB already bought a Phase/Leaf back in a dedicated mount, and invested in lenses, extension tubes, etc. for their camera, or went H.  The Hy6, while compelling, isn't worth the substantial hit to the bottom line involved in switching systems.  I would love to buy a Hy6, but it just does not offer much over my RZ/Leaf 54s, which, all in, cost less than a 1ds3 w/o a lens.  I really wish all of the players in this market the best of luck.  Unfortunately they are all too small to be bailed out.
Title: Franke & Heidecke became insovent
Post by: Steve Hendrix on June 18, 2009, 08:01:41 pm
Quote from: PeterA
I wont argue high school economics with you Mr Hendricks - you seem to have a bee in your bonnett. Suffice to say - current pricing is much more likely to attract users - than past pricing. It takes time to build volume at any price. If there were too many players - then reducing prices faster is teh ONLY strategy that can win. This is basic strategy my friend. Of course it is painful but industry rationalisation is always painful.


With respect
Pete


Pete

There's no arguing the fact that lower pricing attracts more users.

However, there is a critical link between how much lower and how many more users. And while it's obvious - even at the high school level   - that quickly reducing prices can help eliminate competitors, it can also have the same effect on the price reducer depending on how well that critical link is managed.

You described how it suddenly occurred to us that if we lowered prices, volume would increase. My point is simply that this fact doesn't guarantee any level of profitability in and of itself, which was kind of how you put it.


Respectfully,
Steve Hendrix
Phase One
Title: Franke & Heidecke became insovent
Post by: PeterA on June 18, 2009, 08:51:36 pm
Quote from: Steve Hendrix/Phase One
Pete

There's no arguing the fact that lower pricing attracts more users.

However, there is a critical link between how much lower and how many more users. And while it's obvious - even at the high school level   - that quickly reducing prices can help eliminate competitors, it can also have the same effect on the price reducer depending on how well that critical link is managed.

You described how it suddenly occurred to us that if we lowered prices, volume would increase. My point is simply that this fact doesn't guarantee any level of profitability in and of itself, which was kind of how you put it.


Respectfully,
Steve Hendrix
Phase One


Steve,

I agree - reducing prices to take out competition only works if you are the low cost producer and at or around leading market share.... My understanding is that Phase One has market leadership interms of share. When Hasselblad did their pre-emptive slash i am sure they were attempting to get a greater market share in terme of volume - in order to be able to at the margin pre-empt any response from you guys. If everyone has similar cost structures - then reducing prices hurts everyone and then it gets down to the difficult and risky situaiton of who has the deeper pockets...

MFD is now in a kind of lose/lose game from a shareholders perspective....

Why I am concerned is that I feel it would be a great shame if some manufacturers of camera equipment ( not just MFD backs) closed shop as a result of the competitive dynamics playing out as above.
It has made me hesitate to buy some gear - if only because like anything mechanical irrepsective of starting build quality - things do break down over time and with use.

All photographers - wether they do it for a living or do it because they are passionate hobbysists want a healthy stable industry dynamic. The technology changing so much makes it a difficult background to achieve this. Shame if the hardware side of things got flushed along with perhaps a tech platform that is just too niche..and uneconomic. One company going down scares everyone - about the longevity of everyone else. Digi backs - sans bodies/systems and lenses - well what are they..if you get my drift.

Pete

Title: Franke & Heidecke became insovent
Post by: Graham Mitchell on June 18, 2009, 09:06:25 pm
...
Title: Franke & Heidecke became insovent
Post by: Leonardo Barreto on June 18, 2009, 09:51:50 pm
I remember the discussion about Nikon not making it. They had made a bad luck decision and Canon went way ahead when they where stuck in the DX format. Now things are very mature there. MF is not there yet, but probably the trajectory to being settled is there. Mamiya will come up with a mature AFD, Hasselblad will also work on improving their H3 system and they will all lower their prices as much as possible.

It is interesting that this two are systems where Europeans are working alongside with Japanese. Hasselblads are made with the help of Fujifilm --or the other way around, don't know-- and Phase One and Mamiya. Mamiya could not do a digital back on their own. Fujifilm also had a digital back that went the way of the Titanic, --and Hasselblad obviously could not do an 645 AF or they would have done it w/out Fujifilm--

It is also interesting that digital backs evolved from film scanning companies, like Imacon and Phase One.. and that Casio was one of the first companies set up to join a sensor with an LCD. Olympus was always shrinking cameras and now they have the DIGITAL PEN.

Imagine a MF with no mirror mechanism? it means that it could be smaller, with sharper lenses that could have less elements, less distortion, better color, sharper. With faster apertures.

Technology can safely make the mirror mechanism obsolete. Then you could have LIVE view, PC correction live. Super HD movie capability.

This is what Rollei/F&H/Sinar should have done as a proposition to the future of MF, instead of make up changes in to an old 6x6 system.

We will probably see that form a completely new company like RED...

Title: Franke & Heidecke became insovent
Post by: pcunite on June 18, 2009, 10:29:11 pm
Quote from: Leonardo Barreto
Technology can safely make the mirror mechanism obsolete. Then you could have LIVE view, PC correction live. Super HD movie capability.

This is what Rollei/F&H/Sinar should have done as a proposition to the future of MF, instead of make up changes in to an old 6x6 system.

We will probably see that form a completely new company like RED...

Right on Leonardo!
The way MFD is used mostly (tripod) work one could easily do away with the mirror! What makes it so funny (not really) is that all current MFD makers have the worst LCD available!
Title: Franke & Heidecke became insovent
Post by: rainer_v on June 18, 2009, 11:30:59 pm
without wanting to start a discussion if i am right or wrong, my input is that i believe the future of mf would be studio/ architecture and maybe some niche markets as landscape. nothing more. its obvious that this markets cant be gained by 35mm systems or only in parts, similar than in the 4x5" times.

and especially this market is seen as not worth to even write programs which deliver castfree images and reasonable well thought workflows.
this makes me think the players dont know where is their game, they dream and they make big marketing researches <about fantastic numbers which could be sold, where they only should use their brains or ( maybe better ) ask some professionals. not hundreds, some.
i am with peter that it would be a big loss if these niche systems will disappear only for not having visions on side of the companies, because there is no other system which could compensate this loss. thats different in fashion, it still might be a loss for some people but there is no real problem to go on working with a 35mm either. and this seem to be the only market the mf guys look after.

btw. i agree too that the prices from nowadays would have changed the whole game, if they would have been here some time ago.
i am not informed about but i believe sensor costs are now the same than some time ago, probably many of the 22/33/39 mp backs might be sold even from shelf ( leaf: how many hundred backs you have laying around with centerfold which could be removed easily by stephans or a similar qualified written code ? ) , so the calculation which works now,- created  by emergency,- could have worked 1,2 or 3 years ago too.
it seems as all players all the time looked only about the border: what are doing the others, what features they have,  which prices are making the competitors.
does another manufactor has a sliding back yet? if not ... we dont need to make it either.  
does another manufactor makes dngs?  if not we dont need it too.
does another correct colorcasts on the fly? if not ....
does another brand sells backs under $15.000,-- ? if not ....
does another manufactor still has a real open system?  if not ...
and so on.
Title: Franke & Heidecke became insovent
Post by: mcfoto on June 19, 2009, 12:29:11 am
Quote from: Leonardo Barreto
This thread has 35,000 views    

There is probably more exposure here than in a trade show...

Can I ask you -- 35,000 viewers--, : Who are you?--

I think a week ago it was 25,000 views & now its 35,000+ views! I have talked to both the Leaf & Phase dealers & they are very aware of what is going on with F&H. Overall there is concern about what is happening. We have the PMA show coming next week in Sydney ( Australias largest annual photo trade show ) & I know the Hasselblad & Phase/Mamiya agents will be there. Maybe in one more week we will have more news?
Denis
Title: Franke & Heidecke became insovent
Post by: BJNY on June 19, 2009, 12:43:26 am
Quote from: Leonardo Barreto
Imagine a MF with no mirror mechanism? it means that it could be smaller, with sharper lenses that could have less elements, less distortion, better color, sharper. With faster apertures.

Technology can safely make the mirror mechanism obsolete. Then you could have LIVE view, PC correction live. Super HD movie capability.

This is what Rollei/F&H/Sinar should have done as a proposition to the future of MF, instead of make up changes in to an old 6x6 system.

We will probably see that from a completely new company like RED...

YES, and a big LCD, please.



Title: Franke & Heidecke became insovent
Post by: uaiomex on June 19, 2009, 01:02:34 am
I can't believe that all professional photography would be produced with 35 digital in the near future, unless photography runs the same luck as hi-fi listening. So far, I haven't met a human being below 30 unsatisfied by MP3 quality.Even a friend of mine (jazz nut) in his late 20's usually listens to his entire collection of jazz cd's (about 700) in mp3 with a bit rate of 256 or something. He can't tell the difference! We're screwed!
When I was a beginner, I learned about 35, MF, 4X5 and 8X10 cameras and every format had a special application. Now it seems that everything will be done with "35 digital". It is probably the most universal format of all times. Only catch is too small for human dimensions. MF was right on the target in image quality and ergonomics to facilitate a creative workflow.
It is very sad that we would had to deal with miniature viewfinders. Autofocus for still life!! For Christ sake, these small viewfinders are so small and so uncontastry that AF is a necessity. What about lookinf through a WLF to compose an image and look at your poser straight to the eye to give him/her directions. That was called rapport! - Do you remember this word?
Now we have to struggle with auto everything cameras that change the function of any knob and wheel depending of the mode you're in. Imagine a car that switches the brake pedal for the accelerator by the action of a click! - That's what I have to deal every day with my 5D. It can't get anymore stupid than this!

MF manufacturers better get their act together before I leave photography for good. (I'm dramatizing) But amigos, it is that bad. Seriously.
Eduardo
Title: Franke & Heidecke became insovent
Post by: Martin Kristiansen on June 19, 2009, 01:37:03 am
Quote from: uaiomex
What about lookinf through a WLF to compose an image and look at your poser straight to the eye to give him/her directions. That was called rapport! - Do you remember this word?
Now we have to struggle with auto everything cameras that change the function of any knob and wheel depending of the mode you're in. Imagine a car that switches the brake pedal for the accelerator by the action of a click! - That's what I have to deal every day with my 5D. It can't get anymore stupid than this!
Eduardo

Have to agree with this. When auto cameras first starting gaining ground I was mystified as to how it was supposed to be easier than my Minolta SRT101 where all I had to do was focus and set exposure. My Leaf back on a Cambo out in a landscape or shooting a still life in my studio provides me with an experience I cannot replicate on my DSLR's and I have shot on DCS420 DCS460 DCS560 D30 1DS 1DSMKII 5D and 1DMKIII.

If all I had was DSLR's I would most likely give up my personal work and just shoot commercially.
Title: Franke & Heidecke became insovent
Post by: David Grover / Capture One on June 19, 2009, 02:55:14 am
Quote from: rainer_v
how is it possible that hasselblad still ignores and neglect the color shifts produced by shift lenses and not offering a solution which works 1005 colorshiftfree?

Explain?

We do not ignore this and have offered a solution (as all other manufacturers) for correcting color shifts on wide angle lenses, or other lenses with movements.  It has been available very early on with FlexColor and improved in Phocus.


Title: Franke & Heidecke became insovent
Post by: rainer_v on June 19, 2009, 03:13:57 am
Quote from: David Grover / Hasselblad
Explain?

We do not ignore this and have offered a solution (as all other manufacturers) for correcting color shifts on wide angle lenses, or other lenses with movements.  It has been available very early on with FlexColor and improved in Phocus.

you write it in a format which is usable in other converters than yours as color corrected files? i dont think so but maybe i am wrong.
Title: Franke & Heidecke became insovent
Post by: ThierryH on June 19, 2009, 03:20:29 am
Steve,

That is the whole point in making prices: would anyone be able to have the correlation between price reduction and sale volumes increase, that would make that "anyone" being a billionaire.

Best regards,
Thierry

Quote from: Steve Hendrix/Phase One
However, there is a critical link between how much lower and how many more users.
Steve Hendrix
Phase One
Title: Franke & Heidecke became insovent
Post by: paratom on June 19, 2009, 03:32:04 am
I think there is one additional market: hobby users like me who like the medium format handling (I really like the viewfinder of my Hy6) and I even believe I can see in many images a better IQ than I can get with my Nikon. Call my crazy but I even use MF often for family snapshots and I enjoy it.

How would a MF-camera without mirror look like? Framing with display or EVF? Please not.
Actually for my taste the Hy6 is just right and its wonderfull to be able to use all those Rollei lenses.

I agree though that a larger display and live view on the display would be really nice to have.
I give some credit to the MF and Back brands: I think they have really low numbers (compared to 35mm cameras) and its probably not possible to cover as much R&D-cost for them-specially in this price-combat we see today.
Title: Franke & Heidecke became insovent
Post by: James R Russell on June 19, 2009, 03:37:56 am
Quote from: TMARK
What baffels me is why the big players never had a similar collaboration with fashion, interior, tabletop product shooters.  I mean a real collaboration, not a product endorsement.


There is nothing to add to this that hasn't been said before.

In many instances, (not all) medium format digital produces a better image than 35mm, at least to the photographer. ie. more sharpness and detail.

To the client, that can be debatable, because a lot of clients I work with look at this uber sharpness and micro detail as more digital looking  than film like looking.

Yes, I shot a marketing piece for Phase and had some conversations about software with the marketing people.  My response to software was just to make lightroom that tethered and had better out of the box color profiles, though phase went more of a complicated direction with their user interface, so I guess they have their reasons???

As far as cameras a Phase engineer did contact me and we had few fairly lengthy discussions about cameras.  I did very much enjoy the discussion with the engineer because he was the "boots on the ground" guy though how much he, (or anyone for that matter) can do to improve an existing Mamiya is questionable.  (My words not his, because nobody I have ever spoken to at Phase was negative about anything).

Still, I looked at the AFD 1, 2, 3, not as a lump of coal to be turned into a diamond, but more of a piece of glass somebody had made from a rock.  You can polish it all you want but it still came from a rock and will never bee a diamond. (one again my word's not Phase's).  I also mentioned a right angle grip and more responsiveness, faster shooting speeds, etc.

I actually could have summed up the whole camera discussion with make a H series with no mirror slap (and in black), or make a HY6 with all the bits and lenses ready to buy (and in black) or make a Contax with a brighter viewfinder (and keep it black), but most imortantly in the world of almost medium format make a fast 100 to 110 mm lens and keep all the prices as low as possible.

I actually "should" have summed it up with just make a canon with a removable prism and a larger sensor.

As far as the P65 nobody from phase mentioned this, though I had some idea a Dalsa sensor was coming as I kept hearing rumblings that maybe Dalsa is more film like than Kodak, so I assumed that was the next step.  

Oh and I did bring up the phase lcd (insert perplexed smiley face here).

Regardless of what happens to medium format I have an overwhelming belief that traditional still photography is becoming more marginalized by the day.

http://www.digitaljournalist.org/issue0704...hotography.html (http://www.digitaljournalist.org/issue0704/the-coming-earthquake-in-photography.html)

And the camera systems that go forward in the next few years (prior to the recession I would have said a decade), will have to have either fast still capabilities of high definition video good enough for print.  (good enough is a very broad term).

Our studios began motion production 6 to 7 years ago and at the time, most clients asked, "what will we do with it?".  Today most clients ask to have some kind of motion with each still session and now it's progressed to where neither medium is the goal.

It's gone from shoot a little video during the still production, or shoot a few stills during the video.   Now it's moved to we want great stills and great motion.

Recently I tried a little experiment.  I was scouting a location for a still and motion shoot we will produce next week.  Rather than shoot the obligatory single frame of each area, I decided to set the Nikon D700 (a still camera not a video camera) on jpeg and a fast frame rate and shoot it like a motion camera.

It's rough, hand held and obviously choppy, though the response I got from this location video from the ad agency was over the top.  

http://www.russellrutherford.com/web_fast_cut.mov (http://www.russellrutherford.com/web_fast_cut.mov)

and keep in mind these moving images are print grade retouchable quality.

[attachment=14641:devil_jamesrussell.jpg]

That's got to tell you something.  At least it did to me.



JR


Title: Franke & Heidecke became insovent
Post by: Graham Mitchell on June 19, 2009, 04:48:07 am
Quote from: Leonardo Barreto
Imagine a MF with no mirror mechanism? it means that it could be smaller, with sharper lenses that could have less elements, less distortion, better color, sharper. With faster apertures.

Nice dream but still not feasible today, never mind a few years ago. How would you focus the thing? An LCD (even the best available 3" VGA type) is absolutely useless to judge *accurate* focus, espcially on a 60MP sensor! It could be ok if you have all the time in the world to go through menus to zoom and scroll to check focus on specific parts of the image, but what about moving subjects?

And the dream of using the sensor itself as the AF sensor is not possible because the MF sensors don't support it (yet).
Title: Franke & Heidecke became insovent
Post by: Dustbak on June 19, 2009, 05:04:19 am
Quote from: James R Russell
Recently I tried a little experiment.  I was scouting a location for a still and motion shoot we will produce next week.  Rather than shoot the obligatory single frame of each area, I decided to set the Nikon D700 (a still camera not a video camera) on jpeg and a fast frame rate and shoot it like a motion camera.

It's rough, hand held and obviously choppy, though the response I got from this location video from the ad agency was over the top.  

http://www.russellrutherford.com/web_fast_cut.mov (http://www.russellrutherford.com/web_fast_cut.mov)

and keep in mind these moving images are print grade retouchable quality.

[attachment=14641:devil_jamesrussell.jpg]

That's got to tell you something.  At least it did to me.



JR

I totally love this! I can understand why the Ad Agency went over the top. It looks really cool. Who needs video when you can do this with a D700  The choppyness adds to the experience, I am pretty sure in this case the impact would have been less with smooth video but I get your point...
Title: Franke & Heidecke became insovent
Post by: yaya on June 19, 2009, 05:27:37 am
Quote from: James R Russell
Recently I tried a little experiment.  I was scouting a location for a still and motion shoot we will produce next week.  Rather than shoot the obligatory single frame of each area, I decided to set the Nikon D700 (a still camera not a video camera) on jpeg and a fast frame rate and shoot it like a motion camera.

It's rough, hand held and obviously choppy, though the response I got from this location video from the ad agency was over the top.  

http://www.russellrutherford.com/web_fast_cut.mov (http://www.russellrutherford.com/web_fast_cut.mov)

and keep in mind these moving images are print grade retouchable quality.

[attachment=14641:devil_jamesrussell.jpg]

JR

Beautifully done James!

Yair
Title: Franke & Heidecke became insovent
Post by: mcfoto on June 19, 2009, 06:34:32 am
Quote from: James R Russell
There is nothing to add to this that hasn't been said before.

In many instances, (not all) medium format digital produces a better image than 35mm, at least to the photographer. ie. more sharpness and detail.

To the client, that can be debatable, because a lot of clients I work with look at this uber sharpness and micro detail as more digital looking  than film like looking.

Yes, I shot a marketing piece for Phase and had some conversations about software with the marketing people.  My response to software was just to make lightroom that tethered and had better out of the box color profiles, though phase went more of a complicated direction with their user interface, so I guess they have their reasons???

As far as cameras a Phase engineer did contact me and we had few fairly lengthy discussions about cameras.  I did very much enjoy the discussion with the engineer because he was the "boots on the ground" guy though how much he, (or anyone for that matter) can do to improve an existing Mamiya is questionable.  (My words not his, because nobody I have ever spoken to at Phase was negative about anything).

Still, I looked at the AFD 1, 2, 3, not as a lump of coal to be turned into a diamond, but more of a piece of glass somebody had made from a rock.  You can polish it all you want but it still came from a rock and will never bee a diamond. (one again my word's not Phase's).  I also mentioned a right angle grip and more responsiveness, faster shooting speeds, etc.

I actually could have summed up the whole camera discussion with make a H series with no mirror slap (and in black), or make a HY6 with all the bits and lenses ready to buy (and in black) or make a Contax with a brighter viewfinder (and keep it black), but most imortantly in the world of almost medium format make a fast 100 to 110 mm lens and keep all the prices as low as possible.

I actually "should" have summed it up with just make a canon with a removable prism and a larger sensor.

As far as the P65 nobody from phase mentioned this, though I had some idea a Dalsa sensor was coming as I kept hearing rumblings that maybe Dalsa is more film like than Kodak, so I assumed that was the next step.  

Oh and I did bring up the phase lcd (insert perplexed smiley face here).

Regardless of what happens to medium format I have an overwhelming belief that traditional still photography is becoming more marginalized by the day.

http://www.digitaljournalist.org/issue0704...hotography.html (http://www.digitaljournalist.org/issue0704/the-coming-earthquake-in-photography.html)

And the camera systems that go forward in the next few years (prior to the recession I would have said a decade), will have to have either fast still capabilities of high definition video good enough for print.  (good enough is a very broad term).

Our studios began motion production 6 to 7 years ago and at the time, most clients asked, "what will we do with it?".  Today most clients ask to have some kind of motion with each still session and now it's progressed to where neither medium is the goal.

It's gone from shoot a little video during the still production, or shoot a few stills during the video.   Now it's moved to we want great stills and great motion.

Recently I tried a little experiment.  I was scouting a location for a still and motion shoot we will produce next week.  Rather than shoot the obligatory single frame of each area, I decided to set the Nikon D700 (a still camera not a video camera) on jpeg and a fast frame rate and shoot it like a motion camera.

It's rough, hand held and obviously choppy, though the response I got from this location video from the ad agency was over the top.  

http://www.russellrutherford.com/web_fast_cut.mov (http://www.russellrutherford.com/web_fast_cut.mov)

and keep in mind these moving images are print grade retouchable quality.

[attachment=14641:devil_jamesrussell.jpg]

That's got to tell you something.  At least it did to me.



JR
Hi James
Really well done!
Denis
Title: Franke & Heidecke became insovent
Post by: Frank Doorhof on June 19, 2009, 09:16:14 am
love it.
But to be honest I'm blown away with the video qualities of the 5DMKII at the moment.
I find myself filming more and more.
Title: Franke & Heidecke became insovent
Post by: TMARK on June 19, 2009, 09:20:57 am
Quote from: James R Russell
It's rough, hand held and obviously choppy, though the response I got from this location video from the ad agency was over the top.  

http://www.russellrutherford.com/web_fast_cut.mov (http://www.russellrutherford.com/web_fast_cut.mov)

and keep in mind these moving images are print grade retouchable quality.

[attachment=14641:devil_jamesrussell.jpg]

That's got to tell you something.  At least it did to me.



JR

Nice JR.  The color grading is fantastic, and most importantly its cut real nice.  Good rythem to the cuts, and doubling back to the same image creates a nice sense of repetition, like a hook in a song.  Cutting is very similar to music.

As an aside, I haven't seen dirt oval track racing in years.  I went to the Cecil County Raceway in north eastern Maryland to see DEO.  I thought DEO was just using the venue, but no, it was DEO and auto events, like monster truck car crush, some greaser 1/4 mile runs, and dirt oval racing.  It was incredible.
Title: Franke & Heidecke became insovent
Post by: rainer_v on June 19, 2009, 12:35:02 pm
Quote from: David Grover / Hasselblad
Explain?

We do not ignore this and have offered a solution (as all other manufacturers) for correcting color shifts on wide angle lenses, or other lenses with movements.  It has been available very early on with FlexColor and improved in Phocus.



   
QUOTE

you write it in a format which is usable in other converters than yours as color corrected files? i dont think so but maybe i am wrong.

mount one of your h-backs on a studio camera, put symmetric lenses or rodenstock hr lenses in front of this setup, shoot untethered, make some movements and make more than one shot,- lets say twenty  shots with different movements,- you should have a grey wall or object in the image. convert them to tiff in your software or in other. correct as you say the color shifts, check afterwards the results ( if its true that they are uniform,- the colors should not be more different than max. 2 ( of 255) rgb steps ). if you can reach this goal ( i doubt it ) please stop the time you needed. as far i know there is no thought in a batch correction,- means in a batch correction of several DIFFERENT shifted files which need different white files to correct them.
try afterwards the same with exposure and a sinar back  and maybe you know better what i am try to tell.  you dont have to sit aside the laptop during the corrections in this case, it runs as batch for all the different shifted files.

next step is you may multiply the time difference between the two systems by 200, than you get an idea of which amount of time i am speaking. this equals 200 nights in a hotel after long shooting days ( thinking in a busy year- for our economy multiply it with 100    ). this is the time your users spend  in front of their laptops every night instead of doing nicer things than basic conversions of files just to correct color shifts.

in general happens in our small dialog exactly what i am telling: companies argue how good is their stuff, but often  they even dont have a clear idea whats going on and where about ( some ) users speak. dont take it personal,- unfortunately this is the rule since many years in mf business, hasselblad is no exception. the dialogues go usually till this point where the companies are nerved by the questions ( probably they see them as destructive ),- than comes big silence and the communication is of,  the problems usually are denied and ( worse ) not seen by the manufactors, or the users are told that only their single unit is defect and this mistake never happened before- the worse thing is the reps/techs/managers in many cases believe themselfe what they tell.
they  better would listen and contact people from outside ( again: not hundreds of opinions ) who have obviously the knowledge how these things may work in a way that it makes sense to use it in practice.
Title: Franke & Heidecke became insovent
Post by: Leonardo Barreto on June 19, 2009, 02:19:10 pm
First of all MF have primitive focus systems, Hasselblad V = non AF. Most others have one AF point that you have to set-and-compose. How precise is that? Second, even the iPhone has a focus solution that is an example of what will come in the future. You have a 3 inch display and use your finger to tell the camera where you want exposure and focus to be. I am not saying that this exact solution will work for fashion MF, but .. it is feasible today.

You don't have to judge accurate focus on a 3 inch. display, let the camera do that. It is called AF. (and it could probably do it better than my naked eyes even on a 6x7 reflex system, but may be not true for young photographers)

Mirrors have moving mechanisms they slap the body of the camera when you need quiet, they slow things, consume battery juice, they get in the way of live views, (one day sensors will be able to work live).

And the worst of all: mirrors push lenses away from sensor plane and force lens designers to throw in more elements just to correct the formula and yet more elements to correct problems caused by the first elements.

That is why rangefinders like Leicas are so small, sharp and fast. The mirror is an accommodating solution that will be rendered obsolete by technology. The only question is when. And by what company.

With a live view MF you can shoot waist level and switch to eye level in a second. You can also program the camera to follow the eyes of the model, just dial the name of the models you want the camera to follow. Can you do that with a Hasselblad 500 c/m ?

All of this technology is here. It is true that it is hard to put everything together with the not so high margins of a company like Sinar/F&H, but they could have started with a simple electronic range finder, 645, or an optical rangefinder. Every photographer that uses a Leica insist that focusing is faster than with anything man made....

I don't know exactly how this should be because I am a photographer, not a CEO of camera maker industry, but what I know is that what F&H proposed was looking to the past instead of to the future...


Quote from: foto-z
Nice dream but still not feasible today, never mind a few years ago. How would you focus the thing? An LCD (even the best available 3" VGA type) is absolutely useless to judge *accurate* focus, espcially on a 60MP sensor! It could be ok if you have all the time in the world to go through menus to zoom and scroll to check focus on specific parts of the image, but what about moving subjects?

And the dream of using the sensor itself as the AF sensor is not possible because the MF sensors don't support it (yet).



Title: Franke & Heidecke became insovent
Post by: heinrichvoelkel on June 19, 2009, 04:24:23 pm
Quote from: TMARK
Nice JR.  The color grading is fantastic, and most importantly its cut real nice.  Good rythem to the cuts, and doubling back to the same image creates a nice sense of repetition, like a hook in a song.  Cutting is very similar to music.

@ JR look at Roman Kuhn and how he is using the Canon 1d to shoot movies....link (http://cpn.canon-europe.com/content/btl/roman_kuhn.do)

Title: Franke & Heidecke became insovent
Post by: David Grover / Capture One on June 19, 2009, 05:18:05 pm
Quote from: rainer_v
mount one of your h-backs on a studio camera, put symmetric lenses or rodenstock hr lenses in front of this setup, shoot untethered, make some movements and make more than one shot,- lets say twenty  shots with different movements,- you should have a grey wall or object in the image. convert them to tiff in your software or in other. correct as you say the color shifts, check afterwards the results ( if its true that they are uniform,- the colors should not be more different than max. 2 ( of 255) rgb steps ). if you can reach this goal ( i doubt it ) please stop the time you needed. as far i know there is no thought in a batch correction,- means in a batch correction of several DIFFERENT shifted files which need different white files to correct them.
try afterwards the same with exposure and a sinar back  and maybe you know better what i am try to tell.  you dont have to sit aside the laptop during the corrections in this case, it runs as batch for all the different shifted files.

next step is you may multiply the time difference between the two systems by 200, than you get an idea of which amount of time i am speaking. this equals 200 nights in a hotel after long shooting days ( thinking in a busy year- for our economy multiply it with 100    ). this is the time your users spend  in front of their laptops every night instead of doing nicer things than basic conversions of files just to correct color shifts.

in general happens in our small dialog exactly what i am telling: companies argue how good is their stuff, but often  they even dont have a clear idea whats going on and where about ( some ) users speak. dont take it personal,- unfortunately this is the rule since many years in mf business, hasselblad is no exception. the dialogues go usually till this point where the companies are nerved by the questions ( probably they see them as destructive ),- than comes big silence and the communication is of,  the problems usually are denied and ( worse ) not seen by the manufactors, or the users are told that only their single unit is defect and this mistake never happened before- the worse thing is the reps/techs/managers in many cases believe themselfe what they tell.
they  better would listen and contact people from outside ( again: not hundreds of opinions ) who have obviously the knowledge how these things may work in a way that it makes sense to use it in practice.


Rainer,

If I was to write on this forum (read by many people and therefore influenced by its content) that 'The Sinar White Shading function is crap', you would quite rightly reprimand me and tell me I was quite wrong.  So please prepare yourself for a similar fate.

From a very early release of Phocus there has been the possibility to create a 'White Shading File', Custom White in our case, untethered and with batch corrections over multiple files when you are back at the studio.  You can also save an infinite number of presets for your various lenses / setups in various forms of shift and tilt.

Therefore your comments 'I doubt' and 'as far as I know' should be learnt from when making assumptions about software and hardware you are not necessarily 100% familiar with.

To clarify I also believe we can claim a uniform correction within 2 points on the RGB scale.

If you find my 'claims' tall, I would suggest a visit to one of my German colleagues who can demonstrate aptly the Custom White Function.  I also quite some time ago posted the workflow on this forum.

So I am afraid I still take it personally when misinformation is spread.

Best,



David
Title: Franke & Heidecke became insovent
Post by: paratom on June 19, 2009, 05:34:33 pm
Quote from: Leonardo Barreto
First of all MF have primitive focus systems, Hasselblad V = non AF. Most others have one AF point that you have to set-and-compose. How precise is that? Second, even the iPhone has a focus solution that is an example of what will come in the future. You have a 3 inch display and use your finger to tell the camera where you want exposure and focus to be. I am not saying that this exact solution will work for fashion MF, but .. it is feasible today.

You don't have to judge accurate focus on a 3 inch. display, let the camera do that. It is called AF. (and it could probably do it better than my naked eyes even on a 6x7 reflex system, but may be not true for young photographers)

Mirrors have moving mechanisms they slap the body of the camera when you need quiet, they slow things, consume battery juice, they get in the way of live views, (one day sensors will be able to work live).

And the worst of all: mirrors push lenses away from sensor plane and force lens designers to throw in more elements just to correct the formula and yet more elements to correct problems caused by the first elements.

That is why rangefinders like Leicas are so small, sharp and fast. The mirror is an accommodating solution that will be rendered obsolete by technology. The only question is when. And by what company.

With a live view MF you can shoot waist level and switch to eye level in a second. You can also program the camera to follow the eyes of the model, just dial the name of the models you want the camera to follow. Can you do that with a Hasselblad 500 c/m ?

All of this technology is here. It is true that it is hard to put everything together with the not so high margins of a company like Sinar/F&H, but they could have started with a simple electronic range finder, 645, or an optical rangefinder. Every photographer that uses a Leica insist that focusing is faster than with anything man made....

I don't know exactly how this should be because I am a photographer, not a CEO of camera maker industry, but what I know is that what F&H proposed was looking to the past instead of to the future...

I really like my M8 and I would like a MF-Rangefinder camera-but please no electronic viewfinder.
Live view does allways mean a delay, maybe nice for still but not that great for anything including movement.
A mirror allows more precise framing and composing, the big bright viewfinder of the Hy6 allows better manual focus than any other camera I have used before.
A digital Mamiya 7D? yes please. A Hy6 without mirror and EVF? no, thanks.

Title: Franke & Heidecke became insovent
Post by: rainer_v on June 19, 2009, 06:06:28 pm
Quote from: David Grover / Hasselblad
Rainer,

If I was to write on this forum (read by many people and therefore influenced by its content) that 'The Sinar White Shading function is crap', you would quite rightly reprimand me and tell me I was quite wrong.  So please prepare yourself for a similar fate.

From a very early release of Phocus there has been the possibility to create a 'White Shading File', Custom White in our case, untethered and with batch corrections over multiple files when you are back at the studio.  You can also save an infinite number of presets for your various lenses / setups in various forms of shift and tilt.

Therefore your comments 'I doubt' and 'as far as I know' should be learnt from when making assumptions about software and hardware you are not necessarily 100% familiar with.

To clarify I also believe we can claim a uniform correction within 2 points on the RGB scale.

If you find my 'claims' tall, I would suggest a visit to one of my German colleagues who can demonstrate aptly the Custom White Function.  I also quite some time ago posted the workflow on this forum.

So I am afraid I still take it personally when misinformation is spread.

Best,



David

david:

ok. well. so may i ask why it took you so many years to involve such fundamental function? my comment here are not so much meant to attack you as singular company as to ask why you (all mf) companies could miss such fundamental functions and not build them in in time. this problem exists since years doesnt it?

btw. i am sitting here in my chicago apartment chatting with doug snower who`as you might know is an architecture shooter from here and who use hasselblad backs. he is just asking about sharpness preview ( so another question : do you build in your actual backs a100% zoom function now, as well for checking shapness? ) and telling me about his long email conversation with your chicago rep about color shifts and focus preview ( sharpness ) . he bought his back exactly 1 year ago and was waiting for months for solutions to handle his extreme colorshifts, centerfolds ( to my surprise too )  using a cambo system.


but i understand this tread, and so i wrote my 1. response here which was dedicated to all the 4 manufactors of mf backs,- as a tread about the sad down- or undergoing of some companies. me and others think that the mf industry has slept looooong time very deep, not seeing and not wanting to see what it needs to make functional and attractive backs, softwares and cameras.
the list of missing features i posted can be continued by a lot, and its not so important if some of this basic faults are corrected now,- years later and maybe too late to create a wide enough user base. much of this work could have been done easily 3, 4 or 5 years ago and i cannot understand why the companies havent done so. i lost my respect from writing programs or codes in the limited time i had the pleasure to see how SH worked and wrote his codes and i am tired of hearing any escapes or excuses why fundamental things could not have been solved in time.
in time is the moment if you sell a back, not years later or at the end of its product cycle.
Title: Franke & Heidecke became insovent
Post by: uaiomex on June 19, 2009, 06:40:19 pm
THE ULTIMATE SHOOTING MACHINE

I'd sell my soul for a digital Mamiya 6 with a rangefinder and a LV LCD display. I 'd use the camera's rangefinder for expression & decisive moment.  LV for acurate framing and focusing or when going ultrawide or super long.

Please allow me to go in depth some more.

A camera with a square sensor any size from 44 to 56mm. LCD showing a vertical or horizontal crop at will. THe RF showing these croppings by intersecting lines. Camera would be held always the same way. Final cropping could be done in postprocessing. Hey, you can keep it square if you decide to keep all those precious pixels!

Best
Eduardo



Quote from: paratom
I really like my M8 and I would like a MF-Rangefinder camera-but please no electronic viewfinder.
Live view does allways mean a delay, maybe nice for still but not that great for anything including movement.
A mirror allows more precise framing and composing, the big bright viewfinder of the Hy6 allows better manual focus than any other camera I have used before.
A digital Mamiya 7D? yes please. A Hy6 without mirror and EVF? no, thanks.
Title: Franke & Heidecke became insovent
Post by: Graham Mitchell on June 19, 2009, 07:12:36 pm
Leonardo, we all know that the SLR is a compromised system, but as I already mentioned, there are no better alternatives yet. There are no medium format sized sensors which could support the iPhone type AF in a rangefinder, and frankly it's not that hard to autofocus a 3MP camera with massive DOF! It wouldn't work for shooting people with a really narrow DOF on a MFDB anyway, not if you want the eyeball in focus, rather than the tips of the eyelashes or cheeks or forehead, or whatever else the AF system might target...

Current AF doesn't work well, or at least I have never used an AF camera that could focus where I wanted using a shallow DOF. If your eyes are gone, then that's another issue. One thing I will say for AF is that it is faster then MF at getting close to perfect focus, and probably great if you are stopping down a lot (so the AF errors are less likely to matter).



Quote from: Leonardo Barreto
First of all MF have primitive focus systems, Hasselblad V = non AF. Most others have one AF point that you have to set-and-compose. How precise is that? Second, even the iPhone has a focus solution that is an example of what will come in the future. You have a 3 inch display and use your finger to tell the camera where you want exposure and focus to be. I am not saying that this exact solution will work for fashion MF, but .. it is feasible today.

You don't have to judge accurate focus on a 3 inch. display, let the camera do that. It is called AF. (and it could probably do it better than my naked eyes even on a 6x7 reflex system, but may be not true for young photographers)

Mirrors have moving mechanisms they slap the body of the camera when you need quiet, they slow things, consume battery juice, they get in the way of live views, (one day sensors will be able to work live).

And the worst of all: mirrors push lenses away from sensor plane and force lens designers to throw in more elements just to correct the formula and yet more elements to correct problems caused by the first elements.

That is why rangefinders like Leicas are so small, sharp and fast. The mirror is an accommodating solution that will be rendered obsolete by technology. The only question is when. And by what company.

With a live view MF you can shoot waist level and switch to eye level in a second. You can also program the camera to follow the eyes of the model, just dial the name of the models you want the camera to follow. Can you do that with a Hasselblad 500 c/m ?

All of this technology is here. It is true that it is hard to put everything together with the not so high margins of a company like Sinar/F&H, but they could have started with a simple electronic range finder, 645, or an optical rangefinder. Every photographer that uses a Leica insist that focusing is faster than with anything man made....

I don't know exactly how this should be because I am a photographer, not a CEO of camera maker industry, but what I know is that what F&H proposed was looking to the past instead of to the future...
Title: Franke & Heidecke became insovent
Post by: Leonardo Barreto on June 19, 2009, 10:20:41 pm
I will put this thread in a time capsule and check it later.... as we can see in other posters contributions, shooting HD video will --or is-- be big for all formats. Leica is quitting their reflex system with an entire line of lenses. Why? because it is manual focus. If eyes could focus better than cameras why are photographers so demanding of high AF performance in almost any system? but I accept your opinion regarding critical focus on a MF system since I don't shoot fashion --and, yes, I have experienced but more relax eyes probably than yours--.

I remember when I was a photo J. in the 80s and we firmly believe that a camera with a batteries on board was not a real photographers camera. I am not talking about power for the light meter, after all a good photographer could expose by "eyemeter" as we used to say, no, this new cameras had an electric shutter that would not shoot if you ran out of juice. It made you unreliable, you could not be out in a jungle w/out batteries ... that was then ..  mechanical cameras are gone, manual focus is gone, film is gone... the mirror will be also go and you wont even notice it is not there ... or not  

Quote from: foto-z
Leonardo, we all know that the SLR is a compromised system, but as I already mentioned, there are no better alternatives yet. There are no medium format sized sensors which could support the iPhone type AF in a rangefinder, and frankly it's not that hard to autofocus a 3MP camera with massive DOF! It wouldn't work for shooting people with a really narrow DOF on a MFDB anyway, not if you want the eyeball in focus, rather than the tips of the eyelashes or cheeks or forehead, or whatever else the AF system might target...

Current AF doesn't work well, or at least I have never used an AF camera that could focus where I wanted using a shallow DOF. If your eyes are gone, then that's another issue. One thing I will say for AF is that it is faster then MF at getting close to perfect focus, and probably great if you are stopping down a lot (so the AF errors are less likely to matter).
Title: Franke & Heidecke became insovent
Post by: uaiomex on June 20, 2009, 01:50:32 am
"OJIMETRO"
I love it! I already forgotten about that.
I do too remember discussions with fellow photographers about battery dependent cameras. It was sacrilege!
Battery dependent exposure meter didnt count (well, at least not in my time) After all you could use your Ojimetro.
Besides HCB was mainly an eyemeter photographer, or so we heard.
Eduardo


Quote from: Leonardo Barreto
I will put this thread in a time capsule and check it later.... as we can see in other posters contributions, shooting HD video will --or is-- be big for all formats. Leica is quitting their reflex system with an entire line of lenses. Why? because it is manual focus. If eyes could focus better than cameras why are photographers so demanding of high AF performance in almost any system? but I accept your opinion regarding critical focus on a MF system since I don't shoot fashion --and, yes, I have experienced but more relax eyes probably than yours--.

I remember when I was a photo J. in the 80s and we firmly believe that a camera with a batteries on board was not a real photographers camera. I am not talking about power for the light meter, after all a good photographer could expose by "eyemeter" as we used to say, no, this new cameras had an electric shutter that would not shoot if you ran out of juice. It made you unreliable, you could not be out in a jungle w/out batteries ... that was then ..  mechanical cameras are gone, manual focus is gone, film is gone... the mirror will be also go and you wont even notice it is not there ... or not  
Title: Franke & Heidecke became insovent
Post by: Leonardo Barreto on June 20, 2009, 09:13:43 am
Yes, yes, that is the actual term, I just translated it to English, don't know how to say it in french ... one time I happened to find myself with bullets coming from the contras in my front and the sandinistas in my back at dusk close to the Honduras Nicaragua border and I instinctively opened my 50mm f 1: 1.4 to all the way and shot away... we where the microprocessor of our cameras then, no? and lucky not to catch a bullet too...

(http://leonardobarreto.com/AQUI/image/056.jpg)

The other thing we had where primes. I worked a lot with a normal and a teleconverter.. on my Canon F-1,

(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/06/F-1-olympics-collection-03.jpg)

(image redirected from wikipedia for non commercial propose)

Quote from: uaiomex
"OJIMETRO"
I love it! I already forgotten about that.
I do too remember discussions with fellow photographers about battery dependent cameras. It was sacrilege!
Battery dependent exposure meter didnt count (well, at least not in my time) After all you could use your Ojimetro.
Besides HCB was mainly an eyemeter photographer, or so we heard.
Eduardo
Title: Franke & Heidecke became insovent
Post by: dsnow on June 22, 2009, 12:58:45 am
Hello

Thank you for inviting me for a demonstration of the Sinar system.  It speaks fluently the vocabulary that we use on every shoot.

For years I watched the evolution of digital gear.  Its chart is plotted with ups, downs, gaps, overlaps, variations, mixed data & on and on...
Looking for digi gear to replace the 4x5 is like going to a freak show of distorted adaptations of film cameras,  such as the cambo X2Pro, the Better Light slide in 4x5 digiback, sliding back adaptors for digi backs, adaptor plates for 4x5's, DSLR's that clip to 4x5's and ultra hi priced MF style digi backs that would clip onto almost anything.  As the metamorphosis continued, some semblance of a viable solution became recognizable in the shape of the MF large sensor backs slapped onto weird looking metal cameras with some shifts and large format lenses that could focus with a ring like an SLR.   After all, the MF digi back was an adapted invention, like the automobile was invented based on roads that were made to fit the width of 2 horses ass.  The MF digi back was made to fit on a MF platform and adapted to the 4x5 format.  Why reinvent the wheel?
 
And why take it personnel, as they say "it's just business".  The camera business is based on sales of products that consumers want and need.  Manufactures do not have an unlimited amount of R&D funding available. By hook or by crook they beg, barrow and steal to keep the competitive edge.  There is not a symbiotic relationship between manufactures and consumers because the bean counters know that if you give the mouse a cookie he will want a glass of milk.  So they try to stay ahead of the curve by getting the piggy to market.  If you build it they will come.  And if you pull the rug out from under em by ringing the bell that Roid is dead, they will flock in like lemmings.  I would not call it personal- technology will always be in development.  One step forward two steps back.  Manufactures will only go so far with research and development and then wait for end users to cry out in agony and demand something new and improved.  It is just business and we consumers can not afford to wait for solutions, I want plug and play.  Why should we have to test everything at our time and expense so that you can build it better.  At least  guinea pigs get food and water.  Photogs know how gear problems effect us and good photogs can tell what problems need to be addresses even without 1st hand experience with the gear.  But maybe it is personal when you have to listen to all the complaints of why this problem and why that problem.  I am sure you are trying hard to build it right.  But lets not disguise inherent digi gear problems with fancy names to buy time and put a fix on it.  If it is broke fix it and do it quickly because your success depends on your reputation- and we all know image is everything!






Quote from: David Grover / Hasselblad
Rainer,

If I was to write on this forum (read by many people and therefore influenced by its content) that 'The Sinar White Shading function is crap', you would quite rightly reprimand me and tell me I was quite wrong.  So please prepare yourself for a similar fate.

From a very early release of Phocus there has been the possibility to create a 'White Shading File', Custom White in our case, untethered and with batch corrections over multiple files when you are back at the studio.  You can also save an infinite number of presets for your various lenses / setups in various forms of shift and tilt.

Therefore your comments 'I doubt' and 'as far as I know' should be learnt from when making assumptions about software and hardware you are not necessarily 100% familiar with.

To clarify I also believe we can claim a uniform correction within 2 points on the RGB scale.

If you find my 'claims' tall, I would suggest a visit to one of my German colleagues who can demonstrate aptly the Custom White Function.  I also quite some time ago posted the workflow on this forum.

So I am afraid I still take it personally when misinformation is spread.

Best,



David
Title: Franke & Heidecke became insovent
Post by: ivan muller on June 22, 2009, 06:22:56 am


(The other thing we had where primes. I worked a lot with a normal and a teleconverter.. on my Canon F-1)

hi Leonardo,

I know this is off topic, but that photo of the old F1 brings back memories! I do remember the endless debates about batt operated cameras  and the question if Canon was better than Nikon etc etc! I had mine taken away at knife point in downtown JHB one Sunday afternoon many years ago! I loved the feel/sound of the shutter! and that big heavy slow motordrive! The new F1 never impressed me as much. I also had an old Canon EF that was also taken away at knife point in Marabastad Pretoria when I was a student in the early 80's. (the police caught one of the perps that same night and he was jailed for 4years!) and I wasnt even a news photographer!

.....those were the days......

Regards, Ivan


Title: Franke & Heidecke became insovent
Post by: David Grover / Capture One on June 23, 2009, 04:04:17 am
Quote from: rainer_v
david:

ok. well. so may i ask why it took you so many years to involve such fundamental function? my comment here are not so much meant to attack you as singular company as to ask why you (all mf) companies could miss such fundamental functions and not build them in in time. this problem exists since years doesnt it?

btw. i am sitting here in my chicago apartment chatting with doug snower who`as you might know is an architecture shooter from here and who use hasselblad backs. he is just asking about sharpness preview ( so another question : do you build in your actual backs a100% zoom function now, as well for checking shapness? ) and telling me about his long email conversation with your chicago rep about color shifts and focus preview ( sharpness ) . he bought his back exactly 1 year ago and was waiting for months for solutions to handle his extreme colorshifts, centerfolds ( to my surprise too )  using a cambo system.


but i understand this tread, and so i wrote my 1. response here which was dedicated to all the 4 manufactors of mf backs,- as a tread about the sad down- or undergoing of some companies. me and others think that the mf industry has slept looooong time very deep, not seeing and not wanting to see what it needs to make functional and attractive backs, softwares and cameras.
the list of missing features i posted can be continued by a lot, and its not so important if some of this basic faults are corrected now,- years later and maybe too late to create a wide enough user base. much of this work could have been done easily 3, 4 or 5 years ago and i cannot understand why the companies havent done so. i lost my respect from writing programs or codes in the limited time i had the pleasure to see how SH worked and wrote his codes and i am tired of hearing any escapes or excuses why fundamental things could not have been solved in time.
in time is the moment if you sell a back, not years later or at the end of its product cycle.

Rainer,

Fundamental to you?  Yes, certainly.  Fundamental to a fashion photographer, most likely not.

Consider the first users of medium format digital equipment (Think Phase H5, Imacon 3020, Sinar ?, Leaf DCB, Volare... etc etc).  As these were tethered systems only, unless you were a sadist you worked mostly in the studio shooting advertising or catalogue work.  This is where I started for example with a DCBII, sausage factory style catalogue work.

The sensors were smaller, sitting in the middle of huge image circles on RZ's, GX680, 4x5 cameras and so on.  Color cast introduced by heavy tilt shifting, wide angle lenses was an incredibly small occurrence.

Architecture photographers (not being offered anything that useable by our companies in early years) were much later adopters so functions such as Custom White came later as the sensors grew and the camera surrounding it shrank.  Ie H system, AFD, Sinar Artec, Alpa, Cambo and so on.

Also the time it takes for an issue to appear and be corrected is not instant in R&D terms.  Custom White functions were not necessarily simple to implement even though we have cracked it now.

The client base of Hasselblad and others is much more extreme now so we have to cater for more 'fundamental' functions which we do as fast as we can.  We don't go out to intentionally alienate any particular user group.

Best,



David
Title: Franke & Heidecke became insovent
Post by: Frank Doorhof on June 23, 2009, 04:53:49 am
Hi,
For what it's worth adding to David.

Since I was shooting studio work I've always shot tethered even with the Canon's, for the simple reason that the displays on the camera are always inaccurate.
Even on location shoots I always carry a laptop with me to shoot tethered.
Don't get me wrong I would LOVE to see a good display on the back because I also use the camera for trips etc. and judging your shots on the displays used now is close to impossible.

But for my WORK I can live with the display.

All other arguments are personal.
I'm used to MF and AF of MF cameras and never really find it slowing me down in work, however when shooting with the DSLR I like the extra speed but also find that in the end I'm shooting in exactly the same pace simply because it's a kind of "groove" you're in with your model.

Both systems are great and are used in the mix by most.
Putting MF down on some points is simply useless because it's not used for those.
It's like comparing a Ferrari to a tractor.
On the land the Tractor rules on the speedway the Ferrari.
If you own both you can do anything

For me the whole issue F&H/Leaf/Sinar is also worrying, I would hate to see two players in the market that's never good.
MF going belly up is not an issue, give me a DSLR that gives me the same quality and the large sensor and we're talking (oh no, then it's called a MF again )
The future for MF will be there but probably with lower prices (yes even lower), better displays (should be easy) and hopefully a few mix hybrids like the Leica and maybe something from Canon/Nikon.

But again every system has plus and minus points, in the end just use both systems and know when to use what and you will deliver top quality.
Title: Franke & Heidecke became insovent
Post by: ThierryH on June 24, 2009, 10:31:05 am
David,

I am absolutely on Rainer's side here: there are many things which are fundamental, and very often these features/functions can be implemented with very little engineering and in very short time, with the right approach.

The example raised by Rainer is typical: how comes that a one-man force can write a perfect workflow solution in a few days (literally), together with a first-hand feedback from a professional who knows what counts? At the same time a team of "x" software guys tell you that it is not possible. Here lies often the problem, first to prioritize and then to decide.

I can assure you that colour casts with sensors are almost as old as the sensors themselves: it was always an issue with view cameras. And my belief is that architecture photographers would have taken the boat much earlier, would such an issue have been addressed.

My years of experience go in the same direction as Rainer: enough of some engineers telling you that it is not possible or "so much" time and manpower consuming.

Best regards,
Thierry

Quote from: David Grover / Hasselblad
Rainer,

Fundamental to you?  Yes, certainly.  Fundamental to a fashion photographer, most likely not.

Consider the first users of medium format digital equipment (Think Phase H5, Imacon 3020, Sinar ?, Leaf DCB, Volare... etc etc).  As these were tethered systems only, unless you were a sadist you worked mostly in the studio shooting advertising or catalogue work.  This is where I started for example with a DCBII, sausage factory style catalogue work.

The sensors were smaller, sitting in the middle of huge image circles on RZ's, GX680, 4x5 cameras and so on.  Color cast introduced by heavy tilt shifting, wide angle lenses was an incredibly small occurrence.

Architecture photographers (not being offered anything that useable by our companies in early years) were much later adopters so functions such as Custom White came later as the sensors grew and the camera surrounding it shrank.  Ie H system, AFD, Sinar Artec, Alpa, Cambo and so on.

Also the time it takes for an issue to appear and be corrected is not instant in R&D terms.  Custom White functions were not necessarily simple to implement even though we have cracked it now.

The client base of Hasselblad and others is much more extreme now so we have to cater for more 'fundamental' functions which we do as fast as we can.  We don't go out to intentionally alienate any particular user group.

Best,



David
Title: Franke & Heidecke became insovent
Post by: heinrichvoelkel on June 25, 2009, 04:22:42 pm
I guess that's it...phase one buying leaf...ending the afi...goodbye f&h, goodbye sinar...will see...
Title: Franke & Heidecke became insovent
Post by: AlDoori on June 25, 2009, 05:22:56 pm
Quote
Franke & Heidecke schweigt wohl für immer
Alarmierende Nachrichten von Franke & Heidecke haben uns erreicht. Gestern erfuhren wir aus Mitarbeitern des Hauses nahe stehenden Kreisen, dass alle verbliebenen 131 Mitarbeiter die Kündigung zum Ende des Monats erhalten haben. Zum 1. Juli 2009 wird also die Franke & Heidecke GmbH nur noch als insolvente Hülle übrig bleiben. Wie es in den Hallen der Salzdahlumer Straße 196 in Braunschweig heute aussieht, wissen wir nicht. Wir haben auch keine Informationen darüber, ob sich noch eine Möglichkeit zur Ersatzteilversorgung bietet.

Am Dienstag den 23. Juni 2009 gab es allem Anschein nach eine Betriebsversammlung, in deren Rahmen die Kündigung der Komplettbelegschaft bekanntgegeben wurde. Nach einer Phase der „Kurzarbeit 0“ war dieser Termin wohl das letzte Mal, an dem die Mitarbeiter nach 80 jähriger Firmengeschichte an ihren Arbeitsplatz zurückkehren konnten. Ein bitterer Tag in der Geschichte der Fotografie. Gleichzeitig ist es ein bitterer Tag für die Freunde der Rolleiflex, da nun diese genialen Kameras endgültig zur Historie gehört.
http://www.spuer-sinn.net/blog1/?p=1141 (http://www.spuer-sinn.net/blog1/?p=1141)
Title: Franke & Heidecke became insovent
Post by: BJNY on June 25, 2009, 06:21:20 pm
Google translated:

Franke & Heidecke silent probably forever
Alarming news by Franke & Heidecke have reached us. Yesterday we learned from employees of the house near the circles that all 131 employees remaining at the termination end of the month received. At 1 July 2009 will be the Franke & Heidecke GmbH only as insolvent shell remain. As stated in the halls of the Salzdahlumer road 196 in Brunswick today, we do not know. We have no information about whether another possibility for spare parts supply offers.

On Tuesday 23 rd June 2009, there was apparently a business meeting during which the termination of the total workforce was announced. After a phase of "short-0", this date was probably the last time at which the employee after 80 years of company history at their jobs could return. One bitter day in the history of photography. At the same time, it is a bitter day for the Friends of the Rolleiflex, because now these brilliant cameras finally belongs to history.

For us, this means that we do with our action today for the Rolleiflex must end. A variety of interested parties has improved in recent weeks to us and a significant number of these conversations indicated in the direction of "Stuff". Unfortunately, we must now stop all calls. Of course, with our revenue-generating Franke & Heidecke would certainly not be able to save - that intuition is too small and insignificant. But it would have been a signal, a step in the future. Now is gone, what hope had begun.

Lots of blood in the Rolleiflex flowed action and engagement has been spent. Why ultimately all attempts had failed, it will probably never be clarified. A large camera tradition is now gone forever at - specifically at a time when the analog medium format photography is celebrating its comeback. Perhaps it was a business mistake by Franke & Heidecke, the evolution of the digital Hy6 on floor to move. Especially the last few weeks have shown that no medium format digital format. Medium and large are still analog and topics will remain for the foreseeable future. More even by ways of working arises hybrid analog sector, an additional action, which is further developed by leaps and bounds. Franke & Heidecke will be here do not seem to be more involved. Analog cameras with the Rollei logo will probably no longer exist. Rollei film the other hand, grows very successfully in this new era into it. Serendipity is actively involved in this development. The camera industry is expected to light - in the film sector, several new lights. Especially in the case of creative films, there will be new products coming soon to a new flowering of the creative type. Already in the next week we will inform more information.

Title: Franke & Heidecke became insovent
Post by: tho_mas on June 26, 2009, 10:32:09 am
German: http://www.photoscala.de/Artikel/Bei-Frank...ern-die-Lichter (http://www.photoscala.de/Artikel/Bei-Franke-Heidecke-flackern-die-Lichter)

translation: http://tinyurl.com/kvdmyf (http://tinyurl.com/kvdmyf)


Title: Franke & Heidecke became insovent
Post by: paratom on June 26, 2009, 03:17:44 pm
Quote from: tho_mas
German: http://www.photoscala.de/Artikel/Bei-Frank...ern-die-Lichter (http://www.photoscala.de/Artikel/Bei-Franke-Heidecke-flackern-die-Lichter)

translation: http://tinyurl.com/kvdmyf (http://tinyurl.com/kvdmyf)

at least a little hope for the Hy6
Title: Franke & Heidecke became insovent
Post by: AlDoori on June 26, 2009, 03:58:20 pm
in the meantime you can get a new 6oo8 for 1ooo.- here:

Quote
Rollei 6008 Integral 2 Gehäuse + Lichtschacht (Neuware) ovp aktl. Listenpreis 2.696.-- €
neu    
998 € Differenzbesteuert
http://rk-fototechnik.de/index.php?mode=an...s=Rollei%206000 (http://rk-fototechnik.de/index.php?mode=angebot&wa=Mittelformat&hs=Rollei%206000)
Title: Franke & Heidecke became insovent
Post by: mcfoto on June 26, 2009, 04:17:56 pm
Quote from: tho_mas
German: http://www.photoscala.de/Artikel/Bei-Frank...ern-die-Lichter (http://www.photoscala.de/Artikel/Bei-Franke-Heidecke-flackern-die-Lichter)

translation: http://tinyurl.com/kvdmyf (http://tinyurl.com/kvdmyf)

I remember that time in 2006 with the release of the Hy6. At the time there was no way that Phase One was going to be part of this platform. It was a way for Sinar to gain market share & with Leaf on board that was the plan. If the Hy6 was an open platform for all backs including Hasselbad along with Phase One would we have had the same outcome? The other variable was Canon (1DsMKIII, 5DII) Nikon D3 & D3X plus the Sony FF camera.
Denis
Title: Franke & Heidecke became insovent
Post by: bradleygibson on June 26, 2009, 10:04:41 pm
It's hard to say, because the causes of F&H's trouble (demise?) are so poorly understood.

I don't think we know how efficient their manufacturing was--what kinds of profit they were making, or the nature/magnitude of this 'hidden debt'.

I do believe that the platform would have been more popular by a long shot, had Phase been a part of the picture from the get-go.  This was the original package I asked for back when I first took the plunge into MF, and (obviously) never was quite able to put it together.

There is a good chance that if I'd been able to do it, I'd probably still be on the platform today.

Regardless, F&H told me that they were at full production capacity as it was (at least for a time).  I wonder what additional demand would have done?

I know I was not alone in voicing my strong opposition to this from the start.  Still it's a shame.  The Hy6 is special, and it's too bad this closed system ideaology reared its ugly head to make things that much more difficult.  It seems neither F&H, nor Leaf, nor Sinar (by extension) benefited from this in the end.  

-Brad

Quote from: mcfoto
I remember that time in 2006 with the release of the Hy6. At the time there was no way that Phase One was going to be part of this platform. It was a way for Sinar to gain market share & with Leaf on board that was the plan. If the Hy6 was an open platform for all backs including Hasselbad along with Phase One would we have had the same outcome? The other variable was Canon (1DsMKIII, 5DII) Nikon D3 & D3X plus the Sony FF camera.
Denis
Title: Franke & Heidecke became insovent
Post by: Dustbak on June 27, 2009, 02:39:35 am
Quote from: mcfoto
I remember that time in 2006 with the release of the Hy6. At the time there was no way that Phase One was going to be part of this platform. It was a way for Sinar to gain market share & with Leaf on board that was the plan. If the Hy6 was an open platform for all backs including Hasselbad along with Phase One would we have had the same outcome? The other variable was Canon (1DsMKIII, 5DII) Nikon D3 & D3X plus the Sony FF camera.
Denis


I think the outcome would have been very different if P1 was let in on the Hy6 project from the get-go. I distinctly remember a lot of people were stressing this. The stubbornish to keep P1 out of the deal has now backfired in the faces of both leaf as well as Sinar. The MFDB market in its totality has suffered from this unhealthy form of competition.

I hope this is warning enough for the 2 remaining parties....
Title: Franke & Heidecke became insovent
Post by: heinrichvoelkel on June 27, 2009, 06:26:12 am
I am so curious what will happen to the HY6 and more so to Sinar as a digital back maker. Will they stay in the game? We need Michael to became friends with the heads and chiefs at Jenoptik, just to feed my curiousity.
Title: Franke & Heidecke became insovent
Post by: BJNY on June 27, 2009, 08:09:07 am
I would like to know who was steering the bus, and responsible for:
• 90º finder missing in action
• electronic cable release for camera body missing in action
• accurate masking in viewfinder missing in action
• 150mm AF lens (announced/shown for years) missing in action
Due to bad management or lack of funds?

Would Hasselblad's H1 platform have succeeded with these [critical] items missing at launch time?
Title: Franke & Heidecke became insovent
Post by: BJNY on June 27, 2009, 09:18:31 am
Quote from: xinchenc
F&H planned to produce the 150m AFD in June 2009. But now I have found a manual focus 150mm Tele-Xenar lens which is just great.

Auto-focus version of 150mm Tele-Xenar appeared at trade shows going back 4+ years.
"AFD" is just marketing  as you've attested how good the manual focus version is.
Title: Franke & Heidecke became insovent
Post by: antonyoung on June 27, 2009, 09:21:46 am
Quote from: bradleygibson
It's hard to say, because the causes of F&H's trouble (demise?) are so poorly understood.

I don't think we know how efficient their manufacturing was--what kinds of profit they were making, or the nature/magnitude of this 'hidden debt'.

Well some of that at least is known... they were not making a profit.
Title: Franke & Heidecke became insovent
Post by: gwhitf on June 27, 2009, 09:36:54 am
Quote from: xinchenc
As a Leaf AFi user in China, I think the biggest problem for the AFi system is that they should have announced a full-frame 645 sensor, not that stupid wide-format Afi 10, at a reasonable price, and give all provious AFi users a FREE upgrade or an upgrade at low charge, because the AFi early users like me (purcashed in March 2008) have to suffer almost 50% price depreciation within just 10 months.

I would advise most everyone to just accept this "50% price depreciation" right off the bat, and factor that into whether you really need that piece of gear. I think it's world-wide, universal now. I'd say as soon as you drive it off the lot it's worth 50%; not just 10 months later. There are simply less buyers out there now, and that drives down the resale price. You see these ads here on LL, with these dreamers thinking they're gonna get 75% of what they paid for something, and the gear simply sits there idle, until the seller gets realistic (or desperate). And this applies to most anything, any brand Medium Format. It is a dying breed.
Title: Franke & Heidecke became insovent
Post by: mcfoto on June 27, 2009, 10:04:24 am
http://luminous-landscape.com/forum/index....=13410&st=0 (http://luminous-landscape.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=13410&st=0)

This the thread from LL 2006 about the Hy6. Also some hints that PO will not be part of the Hy6. How times have changed in 2.5 years.
Denis
Title: Franke & Heidecke became insovent
Post by: Frank Doorhof on June 27, 2009, 11:49:20 am
@GWhitf,
Maybe a blunt remark and not meant like that, so don't take it the wrong way, but if you're so against MF why post in MF section ?
For you we might all suffer from mass hysteria, hypnosis or are brainwashed but this is the MF forum I think......

I don't think a lot of MF guys agree with you that it's all bad, I for one love shooting with MF and I use my DSLR very spares and only when I have to do something I can't do with MF.

So a dying breed ?
I don't think so, it is however a market that is often looked upon only for the MP's and the rest is forgotten.
Give me a DLSR that beats my Leaf back on the RZ67ProII IMAGE wise and I will switch immediatly.
Title: Franke & Heidecke became insovent
Post by: rainer_v on June 27, 2009, 12:07:48 pm
Quote from: Frank Doorhof
@GWhitf,
Maybe a blunt remark and not meant like that, so don't take it the wrong way, but if you're so against MF why post in MF section ?
For you we might all suffer from mass hysteria, hypnosis or are brainwashed but this is the MF forum I think......

I don't think a lot of MF guys agree with you that it's all bad, I for one love shooting with MF and I use my DSLR very spares and only when I have to do something I can't do with MF.

So a dying breed ?
I don't think so, it is however a market that is often looked upon only for the MP's and the rest is forgotten.
Give me a DLSR that beats my Leaf back on the RZ67ProII IMAGE wise and I will switch immediatly.
.. and a market which could be much bigger than it is, if the companies wouldnt have thought only in themselfs individually and not in the overall market ( and way too less from a photographic view to their products ). so they didnt care if the market at all was affected by their politic, they even didnt thought about such possibility, they only tried to cut out a bigger piece of the smaller and smaller cake, which became smaller mainly for their politic,- ofcourse together with the fast increase of 35mm quality, which already is over the need for most professinal work, quality wise.
i
Title: Franke & Heidecke became insovent
Post by: Frank Doorhof on June 27, 2009, 12:20:26 pm
Quote from: rainer_v
.. and a market which could be much bigger than it is, if the companies wouldnt have thought only in themselfs individually and not in the overall market ( and way too less from a photographic view to their products ). so they didnt care if the market at all was affected by their politic, they even didnt thought about such possibility, they only tried to cut out a bigger piece of the smaller and smaller cake, which became smaller mainly for their politic,- ofcourse together with the fast increase of 35mm quality, which already is over the need for most professinal work, quality wise.
i

Don't get me wrong Rainer I agree with you on that.
What worries/bugs me a bit are a certain group op posters that clearly don't like MF but are posting every time again the MF part of the forum.
It's like the opel drivers posting in a Volvo forum.

I would love to see :
better display (useless as it is)
better high-iso performance
faster AF

But to be honest I'm already very happy with what my system brings me, I know it's not a DSLR in terms of speed or high-iso but I don't use it for that, for those shots I have my DSLR, it's all horses for courses.
But I agree 100% with you that :
A prices have been way too high for too long
B development on features is lacking way behind DSLRs

On the other hand sometimes the quality alone is worth it.

I look at it this way, if someone would over me newprice today for all my MF gear would I sell if I had to promise to NOT shoot MF again.
I think no.


Title: Franke & Heidecke became insovent
Post by: rainer_v on June 27, 2009, 12:27:21 pm
Quote from: Frank Doorhof
Don't get me wrong Rainer I agree with you on that.
What worries/bugs me a bit are a certain group op posters that clearly don't like MF but are posting every time again the MF part of the forum.
It's like the opel drivers posting in a Volvo forum.

depends on a bit who these opel drivers are and how experienced they are ...
in case that these are formel one drivers they can chat  about cars in general, even about volvo and i would be sure they have some useful to say .
Title: Franke & Heidecke became insovent
Post by: Frank Doorhof on June 27, 2009, 01:01:56 pm
Quote from: rainer_v
depends on a bit who these opel drivers are and how experienced they are ...
in case that these are formel one drivers they can chat  about cars in general, even about volvo and i would be sure they have some useful to say .
100% true so that would mean positive input with a critique here and there.
Title: Franke & Heidecke became insovent
Post by: rainer_v on June 27, 2009, 01:25:22 pm
Quote from: Frank Doorhof
100% true so that would mean positive input with a critique here and there.
depends on if m.schumacher likes volvo cars ...
Title: Franke & Heidecke became insovent
Post by: heinrichvoelkel on June 27, 2009, 02:06:46 pm
Quote from: Frank Doorhof
@GWhitf,
Maybe a blunt remark and not meant like that, so don't take it the wrong way, but if you're so against MF why post in MF section ?
For you we might all suffer from mass hysteria, hypnosis or are brainwashed but this is the MF forum I think......

I don't think a lot of MF guys agree with you that it's all bad, I for one love shooting with MF and I use my DSLR very spares and only when I have to do something I can't do with MF.

So a dying breed ?
I don't think so, it is however a market that is often looked upon only for the MP's and the rest is forgotten.
Give me a DLSR that beats my Leaf back on the RZ67ProII IMAGE wise and I will switch immediatly.


Are you serious Frank???? Is this some kind of saturday night ( morning) fever? As a Opel driver, who used to drive a Volvo and rents a Volvo, if I need one, I'm not allowed to ask, while getting in the car to drive from A to B, " where is the f%&king steering wheel" because the guys in the product development just forgot, that a leather covered and round steering wheel will add to the driving experience...


Title: Franke & Heidecke became insovent
Post by: amsp on June 27, 2009, 02:41:15 pm
I'm a Mamiya/PhaseOne user, but I'm not at all pleased by the news of P1 buying Leaf. I think Sinar and Leaf should have joined forces and saved the AFI platform together. It makes much more sense, and having one more strong player on the market competing with P1 and Hasselblad would have been better for everyone, especially us photographers. The lack of choices in gear since the advent of digital is getting worse by the day it seems, and it sucks big-time.
Title: Franke & Heidecke became insovent
Post by: Frank Doorhof on June 27, 2009, 02:54:49 pm
@Heinrich,
Again don't get me wrong.
I don't mind people with DSLRs posting on a MF forum, no problem at all.
What bugs me a little bit is people only posting post to put something down.

Ofcourse there are also things I don't like about MF, don't get think I don't.
But it's very harsch to lately see an almost perfect MF forum going down to a zillion threads that as only topic has trying to get MF user to sell their stuff and go for a DSLR.

That's more the idea I get.
Sorry if it comes over wrong.
Title: Franke & Heidecke became insovent
Post by: TMARK on June 27, 2009, 03:05:35 pm
Quote from: rainer_v
.. and a market which could be much bigger than it is, if the companies wouldnt have thought only in themselfs individually and not in the overall market ( and way too less from a photographic view to their products ). so they didnt care if the market at all was affected by their politic, they even didnt thought about such possibility, they only tried to cut out a bigger piece of the smaller and smaller cake, which became smaller mainly for their politic,- ofcourse together with the fast increase of 35mm quality, which already is over the need for most professinal work, quality wise.
i

I agree.  The MFD makers were busy fighting over the pie while the pie was being carried away by 35mm and the change in the market for photography.  Back in the day (as recently as 2004) there was lots of fat in commercial photography, at least in NYC and LA.  Clients would pay lip service to costs but would change a layout on day 2 of a 3 day shoot, which required day 1's set up, you know, the set up with $20k in rentals/location fees.  As Blad locked everyone out, and Sinar/Leaf/F&H locked out Phase, the makers looked around and saw the tide receeding, the market eroded by dslrs, shrinking budgets, punishing shooting schedules that precluded the use of MFD.  C'est la Vie.
Title: Franke & Heidecke became insovent
Post by: tho_mas on June 27, 2009, 03:13:45 pm
Quote from: Frank Doorhof
But it's very harsch to lately see an almost perfect MF forum going down to a zillion threads that as only topic has trying to get MF user to sell their stuff and go for a DSLR.
actually "gwhitf" said the opposite - don't sell your MF gear (if you have MF gear) as you don't get back a reasonable proportion of what you once paid.
Maybe he also said that it's not the very best idea to buy new MF gear... but actually he didn't say that either. He said everyone should
Quote
"accept this "50% price depreciation" right off the bat"
. There's nothing wrong about that IMHO... it's close to reality.
Title: Franke & Heidecke became insovent
Post by: James R Russell on June 27, 2009, 04:00:46 pm
Quote from: Frank Doorhof
I would love to see :
better display (useless as it is)
better high-iso performance
faster AF

But to be honest I'm already very happy with what my system brings me,



Frank,

You make some valid points, but you confuse me.  Your happy with what you have, but you want more and for less price, but your happy with what you have.

I kind of think that's what most are saying.

I don't know what your business model is, but I know with mine the world has changed and I suspect in some ways yours has also.

I didn't stop caring about image quality, I just became apparent that more than extra megapixels is important to my art and livelihood.  Better put my clients began to request more than just extra megapixels.  They want a more nimble production that doesn't require 2 and 3  hour lighting set ups and 2,000 watts of strobe  to balance  a subject and a window scene.

They know that with expert post production and retouching finding the difference between 22mpx and 60mpx takes a jeweler's loupe and they also know that their intended viewers don't use a jeweler's loupe when they walk through Times Square or open up their favorite magazine.  In fact they know they're customer's  favorite magazine is now becoming a 72dpi web page.

These are very, very, very demanding times and for any photographer to move forward we have to offer more than we ever dreamed possible.  In fact I find these times almost a blessing at it forces all of us to get better, produce more, change our way of working.

There is not a paying client on this planet that understands why a photographer's expensive  camera has an lcd that is almost non viewable, when their daughters $200 P+S almost looks three dimensional and since most paying clients assume they are paying for the use of the equipment their understanding of anything that gets close to problematic or slow becomes less forgiving by the day.

We're not in the film days.   645 to 35mm may be very important to you but in reality to a client that is moving from printed in-store posters  to lcds, pdfs instead of 100lb glossy stock and can track 70% of their sales to the web, 240 megabyte oversharpend files is not important, especially if it requires another 2 hours of on set production to produce what is essentially the same results.

Medium format has moved miles since the first no lcd, tethered only systems, but in that time 35mm cameras have moved light years.   The things you request like better lcds, faster shooting rates, multiple focus points and more moveable iso is now a 35mm fact, not a medium format wish and today if your going to spend twice the price for ANYTHING you and your clients demand more than twice the RESULTS.

If Leaf or any medium format company had made a camera that was twice the 5d2, or twice the Sony or Nikon, if the AFI was twice as fast, twice as trouble free and offered twice the results, then they wouldn't have been searching for a buyer or in the position of being assimilated by a competitor.

Let's be realistic.  You and others have tried a new Leaf, or an HY6/AFI and many other medium format backs.   You gave it a glowing review but for some reason you didn't buy one, you bought a 5d2 instead.  Now do we understand why Leaf sold for $19.95 and the HY6, AFI, Rollei's fate is up in the air?

What this means for medium format or the photography industry in general I don't know, but I assume that once a client gets a final production that produces broadcast quality motion imagery along with double page quality stills, that will become the standard.  If the medium format companies can deliver this and more they'll be fine, if not they'll become more specialized, more marginalized.  

In fact my take on this is just the opposite of yours.  Critique or praise, I think all of us that make our living producing images want better equipment and that is the reason for posting.   Most of us want to get off the continual upgrade path, because we must value our resources not overspend hoping for something that is  promised to may or may not arrive.

But don't think for a moment any professional image maker wants to see any professional camera company go under.  Also I don't believe that people that critique medium format wants to move anyone to any camera system.  This is a place that the medium format reps and makers visit and a way for the users to give feedback, positive and negative and Ill bet you they all take notes.  

We want all of these companies to thrive because that means the equipment is so good it gives us more opportunity, not less.  

Wouldn't you love the video file of a RED, the medium format still quality of an Aptus or a Hasselblad, the ease, iso, lens choice and autofocus of a Nikon or Canon?    If a camera like this was remotely affordable, wouldn't you buy it today?

I don't think all the DSLRS are 100% there . . . yet.   I don't think high end video is exactly there yet, and feel the same with medium format.  If someone would combine the three, yes . . . then we are there, but at the end of the day, the person that really decides what equipment I use is me, though the camera I hold in my hand is a reflection of the person that makes the shot list.

Regardless of genre, I believe most professionals want a camera that is not limiting in any way.  That's the real motivator for writing a check.

You post a lot of images on this forum and I believe have a lot of fans, but if I was going to take your posts and images as a "buyers guide", I would come to the assumption that a used Aptus 22 and an RZ that today sells for about $6,000 total would probably produce any strobe lit still image  I needed.

A photographer that uses  third generation cameras and backs and is happy to stand pat can't be the intend market for a camera maker as they have to sell new equipment.  Maybe that's what worries the medium format companies.

Photographers did not change the rules of photography, the budgets, the client requests, the intended usage.  The market changed and that's where we are today.

http://tinyurl.com/lh6esw (http://tinyurl.com/lh6esw)

JR

Title: Franke & Heidecke became insovent
Post by: Frank Doorhof on June 27, 2009, 04:32:29 pm
Very good points and 100% true.
I think 90% of the clients don't see the difference between a dslr from 500 us or a mf camera of 50k.
So true.

However somehow for me it's also what I like personally.
I'm indeed happy with what I have that's true but I also want improvements
red is amazing would love to be able to afford the 645 version.

I bought the 5dmkii because for what I do the mf setup I use is perfect I don't need 60mps.
But sometimes I do need speed and high iso.
And to be honest I love the video in the mkii.

In the real world however it's what pays the bills and reality is that a dslr will do that.
But again there is also the personal preference and for some people that's understandable (I think you understand) and for some only the economics count and for those maybe mf is not a good choice.  

I think I misunderstood gwhitf than, sorry.
Title: Franke & Heidecke became insovent
Post by: snickgrr on June 27, 2009, 04:47:05 pm
Once a month I go to an evening of shorts..short movies that have been submitted from all over the world.  One they ran was from an Australian director (I think), Sunil Thomas.  It was a parody of a behind the scenes of a decision to use the Red camera over film.  
The director was begging on his knees with the account exec to not have "to use that crappy Red camera" and that film was not dead.
I laughed out loud.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zYGUejAKvgY (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zYGUejAKvgY)
Title: Franke & Heidecke became insovent
Post by: pixjohn on June 27, 2009, 05:08:58 pm
If I was buying today, I would have never bought into the Cambo DS/H2 system with my Leaf back. I would have saved my money and got a Canon. I am competing with everyone else who shoots with DSLR and clients could care less about the difference. I prefer shooting with the H2 but its a waste of money.  
Title: Franke & Heidecke became insovent
Post by: Frank Doorhof on June 27, 2009, 06:08:23 pm
@pixjohn,
If you look at it PURE economical maybe yes, but how about your own satisfaction ?
For me as a photographer shooting medium format gives me the results I want for my work, and to be honest I also feel a bit sad that nowadays clients don't know a good photo when it bites them in the you know what.
We recently did a photoshoot for a national hairdressers wholesale company, posters will be supplied to all their customers.
The problem was that it had to be the safe, commercial photos, I did on my own free will some more extreme light setups and photos inbetween sessions and although every one loves them the most of the whole series they are afraid to use them because it's different so in the end it's the same old commercially proven shots.

And don't even start about ADs cropping or mirroring shots and thus in reality destroying the original composition.

In the end however if my bills get paid on time I deliver what they want and I will say ok, nice, thank you, see you next time, yes I had fun too.

In reality I think everyone agrees that 99% of the work, maybe 100% COULD be shot with a 12MP 5D.
Buy 3 in case one blows up or stops working, and you will have a profitable business and have your first capital on the bank, 100% true.

But.........
Somehow, deep inside of me (and I think that's the case for many photographers/artists) I really don't care IF I could do the work with a DSLR, I just want to deliver the absolute best possible, even if it's for an internet site.
Maybe that's a flaw in my character but it's always been there (never settle for second best).

James asked me why I never bought the AFi.
The explanation is simple, the same reason I never upgraded my Aptus22.
I don't want to throw away my money on more megapixels, I love the RZ67ProII and although it doesn't have AF I get 98% of my shots in perfect focus so why spend 20-30K on another system if what I use now does everything I need.
The END result won't be better if I shot it with an AFi or a 645AFD/III or a RZ67ProII, the differences between those cameras is minor but it's there, that's why I shoot most of my work with the RZ.
The Aptus22 has more than enough mp's for what most people need in fashion/glamour/beauty so again I see no need in spending a lot of money there.
I choose the Aptus22 for it's 1.1 crop and the ISO25 as long as it will keep running I don't see a need to upgrade, although I don't rule out anything of course (I also like new things).

But somehow if I had to do it all over again, I'm afraid I would again buy MF, although I know that it's an economical maybe not 100% wise thing to do......
In the end I strongly believe the photographer should sell his/her work by the images and not by the equiptment he/she uses and it really doesn't matter if it's shot with a pinhole, AFi10, 5D, rebel or whatever camera, the pictures has to do the talking.
Going for MF is I think pure a choice of preference, it's much better than a DSLR in certain situations, but a personal choice.
Title: Franke & Heidecke became insovent
Post by: tho_mas on June 27, 2009, 06:32:32 pm
Quote from: James R Russell
http://tinyurl.com/lh6esw (http://tinyurl.com/lh6esw)
nice stuff, James!
I'm a bit confused that you talk about "dust" (in the title sequence) and finally about social life and authenticity and that you really create a kind of moody docu (though stylish) and then there is this casted "beauty" couple and both they look like they have never transpired once in their life.
I would cut them out - will make this nice short movie much stronger and much more focussed on the story you are telling... IMHO.
... if I am at the liberty to comment this...
Title: Franke & Heidecke became insovent
Post by: uaiomex on June 27, 2009, 06:37:31 pm
Amen Frank

Quote from: Frank Doorhof
@pixjohn,
If you look at it PURE economical maybe yes, but how about your own satisfaction ?
For me as a photographer shooting medium format gives me the results I want for my work, and to be honest I also feel a bit sad that nowadays clients don't know a good photo when it bites them in the you know what.
We recently did a photoshoot for a national hairdressers wholesale company, posters will be supplied to all their customers.
The problem was that it had to be the safe, commercial photos, I did on my own free will some more extreme light setups and photos inbetween sessions and although every one loves them the most of the whole series they are afraid to use them because it's different so in the end it's the same old commercially proven shots.

And don't even start about ADs cropping or mirroring shots and thus in reality destroying the original composition.

In the end however if my bills get paid on time I deliver what they want and I will say ok, nice, thank you, see you next time, yes I had fun too.

In reality I think everyone agrees that 99% of the work, maybe 100% COULD be shot with a 12MP 5D.
Buy 3 in case one blows up or stops working, and you will have a profitable business and have your first capital on the bank, 100% true.

But.........
Somehow, deep inside of me (and I think that's the case for many photographers/artists) I really don't care IF I could do the work with a DSLR, I just want to deliver the absolute best possible, even if it's for an internet site.
Maybe that's a flaw in my character but it's always been there (never settle for second best).

James asked me why I never bought the AFi.
The explanation is simple, the same reason I never upgraded my Aptus22.
I don't want to throw away my money on more megapixels, I love the RZ67ProII and although it doesn't have AF I get 98% of my shots in perfect focus so why spend 20-30K on another system if what I use now does everything I need.
The END result won't be better if I shot it with an AFi or a 645AFD/III or a RZ67ProII, the differences between those cameras is minor but it's there, that's why I shoot most of my work with the RZ.
The Aptus22 has more than enough mp's for what most people need in fashion/glamour/beauty so again I see no need in spending a lot of money there.
I choose the Aptus22 for it's 1.1 crop and the ISO25 as long as it will keep running I don't see a need to upgrade, although I don't rule out anything of course (I also like new things).

But somehow if I had to do it all over again, I'm afraid I would again buy MF, although I know that it's an economical maybe not 100% wise thing to do......
In the end I strongly believe the photographer should sell his/her work by the images and not by the equiptment he/she uses and it really doesn't matter if it's shot with a pinhole, AFi10, 5D, rebel or whatever camera, the pictures has to do the talking.
Going for MF is I think pure a choice of preference, it's much better than a DSLR in certain situations, but a personal choice.
Title: Franke & Heidecke became insovent
Post by: mcfoto on June 27, 2009, 06:54:54 pm
Hi
I have a friend & his studio was broken into. His MFD kit was stolen & he was insured. Even though he was very happy with his MFD kit with the insurance money he bought 2 5DMKII's & a new Profoto lighting kit plus a new lens. He was already a Canon user. He reassessed his business, the current economy, clients & his final anaylist was to depart from MFD. With the Hy6 platform to me in the end it was to little too late. I thought the bright view finder was excellent but 6x6 why, no 28mm. Hasselblad & Mamiya both have 28mm & 35mm making a complete system. With Red coming out next year with the 645 chip with a Mamiya 645AF mount will Mamiya sell more lenses on that format than there own Phase/Mamiya platform? I am beginning to wonder with HDV which has a bright future or will be the future as James says.
Denis
Title: Franke & Heidecke became insovent
Post by: gwhitf on June 27, 2009, 07:14:07 pm
I love my H2/P45+ system, but I treat it like it was 500 shares of Apple Computer; it's ready to sell at any time, whenever the market's about to fall out of MF. In my opinion, all it's going to take is a next-generation of Nikon or Canon, and the day it's announced, Game Over. I love the Hasselblad, but at this point in this Digital Mess, I have no allegiance to ANY piece of gear. I can shoot a job with any camera you hand me, (it ain't the camera).

I almost want to put my H and P45 back in the boxes right after each job, so they're ready to go to Ebay the day that either the Red or Canon or Nikon is announced. Kinda like how a fireman keeps his boots and coat right by the firetruck; ready to go.

I paid over $11,000 for an Xserve RAID system a couple years ago. What's it worth today, still running fine, just like it did on Day One? $1,500, maybe two grand if I found the right buyer, and waited long enough.

That Russell fellow makes some good points, a couple posts ago.

I've *never* had a client ask me what camera I was shooting. (Maybe once, years ago, in the 1ds1 era, when some clients were still nervous, but in recent times, never). I've never shot a job that would stretch a 1ds1 file, (let alone 2 or 3), file beyond its technical limits. Ever.

Estimating a health care job now where they want 9'x9' (feet) mural prints as part of the job. I got all cocky with the AD and mentioned the P45+; he laughed and said, "No big deal, the machine that prints them only needs 100dpi file; any Canon will do it".

I don't have any fault with the MF companies really, (other than the complete ignoring of the LCD issue). I just think the economy, and the internet, and Video, and horrible stock photo prices, and Freddy Five Dee Down The Street have just come together to really transform the commercial photography industry. Almost like a Perfect Storm -- all at once. Look at this forum lately -- every other thread is "So and So about to go belly up". I just think, at some critical point, there aren't enough pipe-smoking, khaki-wearing retired rich guys with Excess Money To Blow to support an industry, and at that point, true innovation just stops. I think that's where the MF industry is right now -- at a standstill.

Yet, if you go to B&H right now, the 5dII is still probably backordered, even at full price, even in this economy.

I've been researching technical cameras lately for my Phase back, and I almost think there's been more true innovation in the technical camera segment than in the SLR MF segment.

Take this as a downer, or whatever. I simply think it's the truth. (And you would be a fool to not plan accordingly).

Just one opinion.
Title: Franke & Heidecke became insovent
Post by: tho_mas on June 27, 2009, 07:54:31 pm
Quote from: gwhitf
I've been researching technical cameras lately for my Phase back, and I almost think there's been more true innovation in the technical camera segment than in the SLR MF segment.
Though I don't know all details of all current MF SLR cameras (not at all) I'd agree here.
I think there will be a future for the very high res backs with crop 1.1 or full frame (40MP and higher) that produce IQ far beyond 35 DSLRS but for very specialized requirements... e.g. those where you primarly use tech cameras.
As far as I follow what you are saying, James, mcfoto, pixjohn and many others... everyone who shoots high volumes, shoots at a certain pace, shoots things for use in very different media... every of those photographers is obviously much better served by the fast and easy to use DSRLs... especially as their IQ (and resolution) meanwhile is extremely good (and with full frame the finders are very good as well).
The DB market will likely be more and more reduced to be an option for landscape, architecture, certain product shots, art and similar fields.
Actually a bit similar to large format film...


Title: Franke & Heidecke became insovent
Post by: gwhitf on June 27, 2009, 07:59:57 pm
Quote from: tho_mas
Though I don't know all details of all current MF SLR cameras (not at all) I'd agree here.

Yes, there's a tiny bit of difference between a 5DII and a P45+ file, but with the right type of Post work, when you really go in and work/transform a file, and within two minutes, there's not a lick of difference between them.

But you want to see some bad-ass camera design, and i'm talking high-end, with no distortion, and VERY wide lenses, and no stitching needed, go researching some of those high-end technical cameras. That's where the action is. That Artec/Cambo/Arca/Alpa and that crowd -- now you're starting to separate yourself from the pack. And no excuses, like with the HTS device. The question is: Can the fourteen guys on the entire planet that own technical cameras continue to support an entire MF segment?

In this comment, and my comment above, i'm ONLY talking about commercial photographers -- those guys that are down in the trenches, truly earning their living with this stuff. If your mortgage is not on the line, I sorta discount some of the comments I see here. There'll be another sunset tomorrow.
Title: Franke & Heidecke became insovent
Post by: tho_mas on June 27, 2009, 08:11:48 pm
Quote from: gwhitf
But you want to see some bad-ass camera design, and i'm talking high-end, with no distortion, and VERY wide lenses, and no stitching needed, go researching some of those high-end technical cameras. That's where the action is. That Artec/Cambo/Arca/Alpa and that crowd
I don't know if the action is there :-) There could be much more action e.g. with the arTec if it would be open for all DBs.
But yes, these cameras and lenses just give you much more options than any SLR without movements.
I use that small Cambo WRS just with the Digitar 47XL with it's enormous image circle. Flat stitching is easy here and you double the resolution of the P45 in a few seconds and it's still very remarkable IQ. Then ... it's very far from the 5D2...

Quote
In this comment, and my comment above, i'm ONLY talking about commercial photographers
that was clear...
Title: Franke & Heidecke became insovent
Post by: mattlap2 on June 27, 2009, 08:57:05 pm
MFDB will not survive if it is only marginalized to specialized uses of Food, Landscape and high end Architecture (low end has already been lost to DSLR).   There just isn't a big enough market to support even one company living on those scraps, let alone one that is capable of continual innovation.

The number of photographers that understand the benefits of a technical camera is dwindling, and will continue to fall as those that were part of the film age get older and retire.   Of course there are budget reasons, speed ones, and the notion of being able to fix things in post production.

I wonder what the next generation of tabletop shooters will look like.    When they no longer have the tools that have been used in the past.   It is almost like an evolutionary step backwards for this segment of the industry.    

One of the places Sinar made a huge mistake was not emphasizing the system they had in a technical camera.   They have always done a very sloppy job of marketing the system at the same time of having all of their future bet on that system.    Things might be very different if they had taught young photographers the strengths of view camera movements in the digital age.   Instead they have gotten distracted in far too many directions.
Title: Franke & Heidecke became insovent
Post by: tho_mas on June 27, 2009, 09:07:40 pm
Quote from: mattlap2
I wonder what the next generation of tabletop shooters will look like.
 

(interessting points, mattlap2)
Title: Franke & Heidecke became insovent
Post by: Frank Doorhof on June 28, 2009, 12:38:37 am
@Dennis,
The red 645 looks amazing but the pricetag for the brain alone is app 40K so I wonder how big that market with photographers will be.

On the whole I do agree on the economical issues of course.
However I would like to add something that maybe is overlooked.

When you compare prices on this moment between let's say a 1DsIII with let's say 4-5 good L lenses.
And take a RZ67ProII with the same ammount of lenses and an Aptus22 the price difference is very very close.

When I made the switch to MF the prices were higher, but still below 20K because I bought most of my lenses second hand.
I sold most of my Canon glass when I made the switch and only kept the lenses I really liked and needed.
The advantage was that the Canon glass still sold for a very good price, while with KEH you can buy MF lenses for almost nothing.

Especially now a days it's all very tight of course and if my studio would be broken into I would probably wait it all out but I think in the end I would still go for MF again.
Luckely we don't feel the crisis yet that much, I'm mainly specialised in teaching workshops and the instructional DVDs and we do some artists and work for hairstylists and somehow those markets are not "yet" slowing down a lot.

When we had the idea Leaf would stop and I experienced some problems with Mamiya I really thought about selling everything and switch back to Canon and wait for the next big thing whatever that would be, however I did a few sessions with the 5DMKII and although everything worked fine and the quality was very nice I really did not feel the same as shooting with the RZ or 645.
Also stopping down to app f16 had an impact to some of my shots with hair, and especially those shots has to be razorsharp and detailed. And also here goes, my client will probably never notice it but I did
So in the end we decided that it was best to just stay put.

I'm anxious to see however what the future brings, I really don't want more MP's, but I would love to see a 16 bits DSLR with high dynamic range and maybe an even bigger sensor.
Let's say something in between 35mm and MF and maybe that would indeed be the time to get back to a DSLR......
In the end I'm totally with Jamers, it really doesn't matter what camera you use as long as it does the job without sacrifices and at the moment the mix of MF and DSLRs does that for me, but I strongly believe that per person this will be different.
If you do a lot of catalogue work it's maybe wise to just shoot with a DSLR, if you do fine art work or big landscapes it's maybe best to shoot MF.
Title: Franke & Heidecke became insovent
Post by: rainer_v on June 28, 2009, 12:38:51 pm
Quote from: Frank Doorhof
@Dennis,
The red 645 looks amazing but the pricetag for the brain alone is app 40K so I wonder how big that market with photographers will be.

On the whole I do agree on the economical issues of course.
However I would like to add something that maybe is overlooked.

When you compare prices on this moment between let's say a 1DsIII with let's say 4-5 good L lenses.
And take a RZ67ProII with the same ammount of lenses and an Aptus22 the price difference is very very close.

When I made the switch to MF the prices were higher, but still below 20K because I bought most of my lenses second hand.
I sold most of my Canon glass when I made the switch and only kept the lenses I really liked and needed.
The advantage was that the Canon glass still sold for a very good price, while with KEH you can buy MF lenses for almost nothing.

Especially now a days it's all very tight of course and if my studio would be broken into I would probably wait it all out but I think in the end I would still go for MF again.
Luckely we don't feel the crisis yet that much, I'm mainly specialised in teaching workshops and the instructional DVDs and we do some artists and work for hairstylists and somehow those markets are not "yet" slowing down a lot.

When we had the idea Leaf would stop and I experienced some problems with Mamiya I really thought about selling everything and switch back to Canon and wait for the next big thing whatever that would be, however I did a few sessions with the 5DMKII and although everything worked fine and the quality was very nice I really did not feel the same as shooting with the RZ or 645.
Also stopping down to app f16 had an impact to some of my shots with hair, and especially those shots has to be razorsharp and detailed. And also here goes, my client will probably never notice it but I did
So in the end we decided that it was best to just stay put.

I'm anxious to see however what the future brings, I really don't want more MP's, but I would love to see a 16 bits DSLR with high dynamic range and maybe an even bigger sensor.
Let's say something in between 35mm and MF and maybe that would indeed be the time to get back to a DSLR......
In the end I'm totally with Jamers, it really doesn't matter what camera you use as long as it does the job without sacrifices and at the moment the mix of MF and DSLRs does that for me, but I strongly believe that per person this will be different.
If you do a lot of catalogue work it's maybe wise to just shoot with a DSLR, if you do fine art work or big landscapes it's maybe best to shoot MF.
so we agree all.
nice
 
Title: Franke & Heidecke became insovent
Post by: Frank Doorhof on June 28, 2009, 01:09:13 pm
Quote from: rainer_v
so we agree all.
nice
 


The disadvantage of not looking each other in the eye.
Somethings can be read wrong or in different ways.
Title: Franke & Heidecke became insovent
Post by: snickgrr on June 28, 2009, 01:49:36 pm
Quote from: mattlap2
I wonder what the next generation of tabletop shooters will look like.    When they no longer have the tools that have been used in the past.   It is almost like an evolutionary step backwards for this segment of the industry.

There will be no next generation tabletop shooters.  Who cares if Medium Format survives because there won't be anybody to shoot with them.  It will be all CGI. The profession of being a professional photographer is dying rapidly.  I'll be the first to admit I don't see well into the future but this I can see very clearly.  Ten years from now, fifteen at the latest we will all be cast aside like entrails.  The technology is here and only needs to be made a bit simpler and cheaper.

Infinite focus, or not...tack sharp or not...perfect perspective or not...any background, any light.

any car, any color...$99.99
Title: Franke & Heidecke became insovent
Post by: Professional on June 28, 2009, 06:53:08 pm
So long thread and i didn't read it from the beginning.

All what i can say is that i am a hobbyist photographer, and i know when i was a client in the past i didn't care which camera was used to get myself photo, but now when i've got into photography i became more picky and sometimes pixel peeper, and as long i am a hobbyist then it will not be a good idea to go with higher end gear for me, but i use 7 DSLRs and to my eyes they are all not in same quality on certain settings, for example the shot i have with my 1DsIII and 1DsII are slightly different even i take same view even with same lens and same settings, also the size are different, if i look both at 200x300 resultion then i will never tell the difference even if i included 8x10 large format shot at same 200x300, but when i check at 100% and i do prints up to A2 with my Epson 3800 or ven larger on labs then i see difference, also i did a comparison test very simple with my 1DsIII and H3DII-39mp, the colors and sharpness with Hassy was much better and then the Hassy was the winner simply.

Many here care about clients because to earn money, ok, i don't shoot clients and i don't earn money, so why i can't use medium format or large format for fun if they have something that any DSLRS doesn't have, should i become a professional to use MF or LF? must i have clients to buy MF? Am i not happy with DSLRs to buy MF? i love all my cameras and i use whatever i can use and if i am rich enough like some here or can earn money then i will go with more gear, i addicted Photography and it is my passion so i will never regret to spend even millions on it.

So about Medium formats, what should i know about them that it might help me? what you most pro here looking for in MF that DSLRs can't offer, only higher MPs? enlight me with more info about MF that we are hobbyists [Enthusiasts] don't know about.
Title: Franke & Heidecke became insovent
Post by: mcfoto on June 28, 2009, 07:23:26 pm
Quote from: snickgrr
There will be no next generation tabletop shooters.  Who cares if Medium Format survives because there won't be anybody to shoot with them.  It will be all CGI. The profession of being a professional photographer is dying rapidly.  I'll be the first to admit I don't see well into the future but this I can see very clearly.  Ten years from now, fifteen at the latest we will all be cast aside like entrails.  The technology is here and only needs to be made a bit simpler and cheaper.

Infinite focus, or not...tack sharp or not...perfect perspective or not...any background, any light.

any car, any color...$99.99

Yes CGI is here & we have used it on most our Ad work in conjunction with photography( last 6 months) . You have to come from the point of view that you are a photographic artist that can make an agency brief really come to life rather than an everyday Ad. With CGI you have to know what is possible & be able to work with the retouch artists to create the best quality work within a certain budget. IMHO gone are the days that every brief will be photographic.
For Frank
The RED camera @ 40K, in the film industry I don't think that is a lot. I can see rental houses buying this camera & since it uses the Mamiya mount they will buy lenses & considering the range from the 28mm to 300mm including 3 zooms. And the RED camera needs focal plane lenses. I have heard that Panavision is seeing RED!! Also I just saw a 5min movie trailer shot with the 5DMKII about a new boxing movie in Australia & it was amazing! The success of the 5DMKII is not only with photographers but is in the motion industry/video to. We now live in changing times & MFD (Hy6 ) is feeling it.
Denis
Title: Franke & Heidecke became insovent
Post by: Guy Mancuso on June 28, 2009, 07:39:39 pm
Sorry I just have to say something first off the day I stop shooting for commerce will be a sad day but I will not stop shooting for ME. I don't shoot MF for just the clients I shoot it for my own satisfaction and the files i derive from it. When did we shoot only for commerce and take the easy road with gear and don't care as long as the client is happy, when did we stop caring about the images you produce and only care about the revenue. Sorry I don't buy any of this crap being spoken in the last several posts. If all your are doing is trying to fill a clients needs than you are certainly cheating the needs as a artist and sorry to say your professionalism is pretty damn weak to begin with. Are we not shooting for the highest possible quality of file and just because a clients needs maybe more web at the time do we shoot a P&S just to satisfy it, come one give me a break. If you got into photography for any length of time we all yearned for the highest quality images we can get for ourselves if you did not than what the hell are you calling yourself a Pro for. Stop the self indulgent patting each other on the back for shooting a cheap Canon and getting by. Grow up be a man and shoot beyond what is expected , is our pride that short sided and you want to stick a the name Pro in front of yours . So the Doctor title in life means absolute BS if you pats you on the head with Tylenol and says get a good nights sleep. As a client is that what you really expect for service or would you want the best medicine that doctor can prescribe. Not much difference folks . Just because someone takes the shortcut does not mean it is always the right path. I got this MF sitting right here in my face and trust me i am going to wring every damn cent of what I invested in it for me and my clients, now that is the attitude we should be talking about. What happened to the pride in your work the pride in satisfying yourself and the pride in walking away from a gig and saying to yourself, hell i gave it everything I had and damn I did a great job of doing it.

FYI this comes from the mirror you just walked in front of , not me. BTW this had very little to do with gear but the space between our ears.

Time to reread the manual
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Professional (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Professional)
Title: Franke & Heidecke became insovent
Post by: Graham Mitchell on June 28, 2009, 07:50:23 pm
Quote from: Guy Mancuso
I don't shoot MF for just the clients I shoot it for my own satisfaction and the files i derive from it. When did we shoot only for commerce and take the easy road with gear and don't care as long as the client is happy, when did we stop caring about the images you produce and only care about the revenue.

+1

Title: Franke & Heidecke became insovent
Post by: tho_mas on June 28, 2009, 07:50:32 pm
Quote from: Guy Mancuso
Are we not shooting for the highest possible quality of file
actually for the highest impact of an image.
For the best way to express something.
To tell something.
For an artistical (whatever) approach of the content you create.
Without content the file is useless. With content the file is not that important.

Title: Franke & Heidecke became insovent
Post by: Professional on June 28, 2009, 08:22:53 pm
Quote from: mcfoto
Yes CGI is here & we have used it on most our Ad work in conjunction with photography( last 6 months) . You have to come from the point of view that you are a photographic artist that can make an agency brief really come to life rather than an everyday Ad. With CGI you have to know what is possible & be able to work with the retouch artists to create the best quality work within a certain budget. IMHO gone are the days that every brief will be photographic.
For Frank
The RED camera @ 40K, in the film industry I don't think that is a lot. I can see rental houses buying this camera & since it uses the Mamiya mount they will buy lenses & considering the range from the 28mm to 300mm including 3 zooms. And the RED camera needs focal plane lenses. I have heard that Panavision is seeing RED!! Also I just saw a 5min movie trailer shot with the 5DMKII about a new boxing movie in Australia & it was amazing! The success of the 5DMKII is not only with photographers but is in the motion industry/video to. We now live in changing times & MFD (Hy6 ) is feeling it.
Denis

Sorry, didn't understand your points.
Title: Franke & Heidecke became insovent
Post by: mcfoto on June 28, 2009, 09:07:18 pm
Quote from: Professional
Sorry, didn't understand your points.
Read back a few posts. The point is that CGI (3D) & the RED camera or any motion/still camera ( 5DMKII included ) is changing our industry as we speak. Also Mamiya could benefit by selling lenses onto the RED platform. I know this thread is about the Hy6 camera & F&H which is about to start bankruptcy proceedings in a few days July 1, 2009. As a result we could end up with only 2 players in MFD. Phase just bought Leaf or parts of & if the Hy6 goes what happens to Sinar? I just have spent 3 days @ the PMA the largest photo show in Australia & I know people @ Canon, Nikon, Fuji, Phase One, Hasselblad.......& these are my thoughts. Even talking to other photographers things are changing at a very rapid rate.
Denis
Title: Franke & Heidecke became insovent
Post by: Professional on June 28, 2009, 09:43:19 pm
Quote from: mcfoto
Read back a few posts. The point is that CGI (3D) & the RED camera or any motion/still camera ( 5DMKII included ) is changing our industry as we speak. Also Mamiya could benefit by selling lenses onto the RED platform. I know this thread is about the Hy6 camera & F&H which is about to start bankruptcy proceedings in a few days July 1, 2009. As a result we could end up with only 2 players in MFD. Phase just bought Leaf or parts of & if the Hy6 goes what happens to Sinar? I just have spent 3 days @ the PMA the largest photo show in Australia & I know people @ Canon, Nikon, Fuji, Phase One, Hasselblad.......& these are my thoughts. Even talking to other photographers things are changing at a very rapid rate.
Denis

Ahs i see.
In fact the world is changing as well, and about photography we are very new in this world, so we are looking for those experienced to give us the tips or ways in this world, and also for those who using all formats from Pinhole to Large format what are their reviews and conclusion about the formats.
I don't know how to explain it well, but for us hobbyist, what will this thread help us in? reading about mostly MF systems will not help us if we don't know or use or even hear about those systems, and because i am so curious i just ask to see what's going on, and about the markets changed, it doesn't stop people or photographers anyway, who knows maybe after 10 years we will see P&S cameras with at least 40mp and then that time maybe some pros or so picky photographers will say that 200mp is not enough, and maybe companies will fight who can produce the best 500mp camera in the world.
Title: Franke & Heidecke became insovent
Post by: AndreNapier on June 28, 2009, 09:49:26 pm
Quote from: tho_mas
actually for the highest impact of an image.
For the best way to express something.
To tell something.
For an artistical (whatever) approach of the content you create.
Without content the file is useless. With content the file is not that important.

You of course right on but ( there is always the but...)
From a business prospective the only way to survive and to put yourself ahead of competition is to offer your clients the absolute best you can with the finances that your business can afford. It really does not matter in a short run if your client see the difference between MFD and 1ds files. In a short run they would probably not see the difference if a month later you went with 5D and a month later with 8MP.
They would probably not notice if you sold your Profotos or Brons and went with Lowell or whatever the chepest brand it.
But... somehow in the end it all come to play regardless what business you are in. Over 25 years  I have seen it to many times in various businesses that the moment you become comfortable and stop walking on the cutting edge is the moment that others pass you over before you even can see it. Everybody is very happy with your work but somehow the phone does not ring that often.
And Yes of course there is nothing uglier than a sharp picture with a boring content.
Andre
Title: Franke & Heidecke became insovent
Post by: Frank Doorhof on June 29, 2009, 01:54:11 am
@Guy,
Did not want to say it that direct, but yes I agree that we should not stop caring for the product/passion and only think about economics.
I however did not want to go so far that you're not you're not caring for the picture anymore when you sell MF and go for the DSLR.
Because in the end it all boils down to the final image, as Andre said, the picture should do the talking and in reality it doesn't matter if it's shot on 4-8-12-22-50 MPs.
Maybe some photographers like the workflow of a DSLR more, for me personally I also love working with the Canon for speed and handling, but when I look at my files and the tethered solutions and the no buffer problems of my MF back I'm convinced that for me MF is the only way to do my work (at the moment).
So especially with pricing now a days I can't think of a reason why people would say MF is at the end of it's live, I think it's maybe at the start because now it's affordable for everyone.
Although there are much less companies offering solutions, there still is a busload of second hand gear that's not only very good but so much fun to work with, take the RZ67ProII working with that camera stimulates my creative process how weird that might sound.

@Dennis,
In the film world the Red is cheap indeed, but for me as a photographer although I would LOVE to shoot with it, it's simply way out of reach.
I DO have to have SOME way of repaying my investment and earning back 40K minimum in the Netherlands with photography...... that's hard

By the way, which cycle of americas next top model did you cooperate with ?
Title: Franke & Heidecke became insovent
Post by: James R Russell on June 29, 2009, 03:11:49 am
Guy,

You need to put some sunscreen on. (take that as a joke).

But honestly if you think professional photography has that much to do with the camera, you need to get out more, because there are thousands, maybe millions of really astounding photographs, shot by amazing "professional" photographers in all formats and at this stage I would bet 80% of them are shot with  a Canon, or Nikon and the people that are shooting these photographs are far from lazy, dumbing it down or non caring.  Cut some slack because these photographers give their life to this biz, in fact anybody I know that's good gives their life to this biz.

Also, if you really believe that the format, or cost of the camera adds to the professionalism, then  that's your choice, but if you believe your own words then it's time to sell the suv and pick up a p65+.

Personally I think still photography is in a slump and it takes more than still camera's  format to get a client's, or a photographer's attention.

I'm with gwhtif (I never spell that name correctly), but I see most of these cameras in the same way I see a toaster oven.  They work, until something better comes along, so they are given to KEH, ebay or the camera safe.

The only cameras I probably will not sell are the Contax/Phase, but that has a lot more to do with the camera than the digital backs and I haven't used them for serious work in 9 months, so even at bargain basement prices, I probably should dust off the boxes and see what they're worth (though I know I won't).

Anyway, I bought a 5d2, only for the video capabilities and though the camera doesn't rock my world, the images it produces does.

This example is from a shoot this week, of motion and  still imagery and shot mostly with the 5d2.  I'm amazed by this camera because in the middle of shooting high def motion, you just push the shutter and click, you've got a raw and high rez jpeg still good enough for any print publication in the world.

I don't like posting pixel peeping sizes, so I've knocked this down to 1/2 size, but at full resolution the hdv clip is almost good enough to retouch and run in print as it covers a 23" apple monitor almost side to side.  The still image at 60mpx is way good enough for anything and keep in mind this example was shot at 1600 iso, hand held at F 2.something.  Also keep in mind this is at 1/2 the real resolution.

[attachment=14911:runningdsmc.jpg]

But the thing is,  this thread is about F+H and their woes and I still hold to the fact that if F+H and their related digital back associates had produced a camera with the capabilities of this $3,000 5d2, they would be rolling in cash.

I somewhat appreciate your passion and if you honestly believe that the cameras you chose make you better then it probably does.  That doesn't mean everybody else is asleep at the wheel because they haven't called in the latest digital back.

At least that's my opinion.

JR
Title: Franke & Heidecke became insovent
Post by: Frank Doorhof on June 29, 2009, 03:20:07 am
@james,
Funny about the 5DMKII that mirrors mij feelings exactly.
When the new firmware was released I refound my love for video and the 5DMKII is now used more for video than photography

How do you handle the focus ?
I found that using the display was a dissaster and ordered a LCDHood3.0 which I connected to the LCD.
Added plus is that you have an extra contact point with your head so the shots are more steady.

I would love to be able to take frames from the stream as with the Red
But what to expect from such a cheap camera, it's a revolution in my opinion.
Title: Franke & Heidecke became insovent
Post by: DArmand on June 29, 2009, 03:39:29 am
Quote from: Guy Mancuso
If all your are doing is trying to fill a clients needs than you are certainly cheating the needs as a artist and sorry to say your professionalism is pretty damn weak to begin with.

I can't speak for others but my intepretation of professionallism is delivering exactly what the client wants - not what I think they should have.
Title: Franke & Heidecke became insovent
Post by: Dustbak on June 29, 2009, 03:47:34 am
I think you are misinterpreting Guys words. I read them as, 'if you only want to deliver what your clients want and have no other ambition, like growing as an artist'. Naturally the type of equipment you are using doesn't say anything about your professionalism or dedication to photography but the will to constantly improve on all levels does. This level could very well include the technical level, where equipment and your skills of using it can play a role. As far as I am concerned it is the type of level that is most easily improved because at this level a lack of talent can be compensated by hard work. Other levels as, vision, compositional awareness, experience, the ability to embed an emotional level into an image are so much harder to improve upon. At least I feel so which doesn't mean I don't try to constantly improve upon that part...

Personally I am in a phase where I can deliver exactly what a client wants and in most cases they are satisfied (to the point the phone/mail does keep ringing ) but do I find it satisfactory all the time? No, I don't. Some of the work I do and don't enjoy that much, I do because it pays the mortgage and allows me to invest in the things I need or like (to do). Much of the things I do out of personal motifs brings me much more joy in many cases but doesn't generate me as much income. Maybe it is where the job gets separated from the hobby  I am working on getting paid for doing just the things I enjoy. The reality is a bit different but some day I am convinced I will succeed... in the mean time if I have to do something to make a living it might as well be photography even if it sometimes means doing part of it that isn't that compelling to me.

Where does the difference of dslr or mf comes in? It doesn't. It is merely a tool that allows me to do a certain thing where I still have use for mf. It is still a personal favorite for many things, I guess or hope I am not the only person remaining.
Title: Franke & Heidecke became insovent
Post by: Khun_K on June 29, 2009, 04:19:55 am
Quote from: James R Russell
Guy,

You need to put some sunscreen on. (take that as a joke).

But honestly if you think professional photography has that much to do with the camera, you need to get out more, because there are thousands, maybe millions of really astounding photographs, shot by amazing "professional" photographers in all formats and at this stage I would bet 80% of them are shot with  a Canon, or Nikon and the people that are shooting these photographs are far from lazy, dumbing it down or non caring.  Cut some slack because these photographers give their life to this biz, in fact anybody I know that's good gives their life to this biz.

Also, if you really believe that the format, or cost of the camera adds to the professionalism, then  that's your choice, but if you believe your own words then it's time to sell the suv and pick up a p65+.

Personally I think still photography is in a slump and it takes more than still camera's  format to get a client's, or a photographer's attention.

I'm with gwhtif (I never spell that name correctly), but I see most of these cameras in the same way I see a toaster oven.  They work, until something better comes along, so they are given to KEH, ebay or the camera safe.

The only cameras I probably will not sell are the Contax/Phase, but that has a lot more to do with the camera than the digital backs and I haven't used them for serious work in 9 months, so even at bargain basement prices, I probably should dust off the boxes and see what they're worth (though I know I won't).

Anyway, I bought a 5d2, only for the video capabilities and though the camera doesn't rock my world, the images it produces does.

This example is from a shoot this week, of motion and  still imagery and shot mostly with the 5d2.  I'm amazed by this camera because in the middle of shooting high def motion, you just push the shutter and click, you've got a raw and high rez jpeg still good enough for any print publication in the world.

I don't like posting pixel peeping sizes, so I've knocked this down to 1/2 size, but at full resolution the hdv clip is almost good enough to retouch and run in print as it covers a 23" apple monitor almost side to side.  The still image at 60mpx is way good enough for anything and keep in mind this example was shot at 1600 iso, hand held at F 2.something.  Also keep in mind this is at 1/2 the real resolution.

[attachment=14911:runningdsmc.jpg]

But the thing is,  this thread is about F+H and their woes and I still hold to the fact that if F+H and their related digital back associates had produced a camera with the capabilities of this $3,000 5d2, they would be rolling in cash.

I somewhat appreciate your passion and if you honestly believe that the cameras you chose make you better then it probably does.  That doesn't mean everybody else is asleep at the wheel because they haven't called in the latest digital back.

At least that's my opinion.

JR
Totally agreed.  I don't remember any art exhibition on photographs is about the number of pixels, sharpness of picture, corner performance and so and so, it is about the picture and the character of the picture or the photographer himself. I hardly have clients asked which camera I use, nor if I necessary use a P45+ for higher paid job and Canon 1Ds3/D3X for less budget work, I use whichever camera I like to use, regardless the budget because I think the choice of camera is mine, not the client, and I don't think my client hire me because the type of camera I use or for that matter, they hire any photographer for their camera, otherwise, anyone simply go to buy the best camera available and be the top choice Ithink this industry is a lot better than that.

Regards, K
Title: Franke & Heidecke became insovent
Post by: michael on June 29, 2009, 08:12:04 am
I'll simply echo James' comment by adding that though a lot of photographers drop into my gallery, look at prints on the wall and want to discus cameras, backs, and lenses used, I have never ever sold a print to anyone who asked what camera it was shot with.

I'm also amused by the fact that the Home Page shot (http://www.luminous-landscape.com/1photo-pages/splat.shtml) that's up today has garnered quite a bit of positive comment via email, but was taken with a $400 point and shoot. I've had P65+ shots that haven't elicited anywhere near as much favourable comment.

Michael
Title: Franke & Heidecke became insovent
Post by: gwhitf on June 29, 2009, 08:21:47 am
Quote from: Guy Mancuso
Are we not shooting for the highest possible quality of file and just because a clients needs maybe more web at the time do we shoot a P&S just to satisfy it, come one give me a break. If you got into photography for any length of time we all yearned for the highest quality images we can get for ourselves if you did not than what the hell are you calling yourself a Pro for. Stop the self indulgent patting each other on the back for shooting a cheap Canon and getting by. Grow up be a man and shoot beyond what is expected , is our pride that short sided and you want to stick a the name Pro in front of yours .

Thanks for getting me back on track, Mr. Mancuso. I stand corrected. I went to your site to see the difference between 35 and MF, and it's clearly there. How did you achieve that excellent "spinning M", and those excellent quality animated GIFs in the upper left corner? I see what you're talking about now. Thanks.

http://www.guymancusophoto.com/ (http://www.guymancusophoto.com/)

I'll follow your lead from now on.

I can read your inspirational words, but it's not until I see your site and your images that the full impact truly hits home. Thanks.
Title: Franke & Heidecke became insovent
Post by: fmo on June 29, 2009, 08:31:53 am
Why didn't I expect to read about personal issues when I opened this thread?

Ah, stupid me, it was because of its title...
Title: Franke & Heidecke became insovent
Post by: tho_mas on June 29, 2009, 08:37:28 am
Quote from: AndreNapier
You of course right on but ( there is always the but...)
I agree.
Of course there is a but when we simplify and polarize.
I just didn't like the inversion of the argument that everyone how shoots anything but a P65+ or Aputs II don't care about quality or is shooting without passion or concept and whatever is needed to make a good image.
The gear is part of the execution and of course adds to the impact of an image... if it has any impact at all.
Title: Franke & Heidecke became insovent
Post by: Guy Mancuso on June 29, 2009, 09:00:09 am
Quote from: gwhitf
Thanks for getting me back on track, Mr. Mancuso. I stand corrected. I went to your site to see the difference between 35 and MF, and it's clearly there. How did you achieve that excellent "spinning M", and those excellent quality animated GIFs in the upper left corner? I see what you're talking about now. Thanks.

http://www.guymancusophoto.com/ (http://www.guymancusophoto.com/)

I'll follow your lead from now on.

I can read your inspirational words, but it's not until I see your site and your images that the full impact truly hits home. Thanks.


Look at the date 2001, yea it's older than pop art. And I did not design it . Frankly been wanting to rip it down for a long time but of course it's always nice to be picked on by yet another whiner in the field. BTW it's a design and not my photography either. Also none of it is even MF digital. What you did not understand or even consider is the shortcuts that we are teaching the young bloods to take we are simply taking photography and cheapening it to no end. My comments had nothing to do with content or actually gear but the attitude that I see everyday coming from Pro's. What's happening to our industry is bad enough but lately it's all about what shortcuts to take. Anyway who gives a shit anyway it was meant to think. Do whatever you want with your clients but mine have been around for years and i will make sure it stay's that way. I like the return phone calls

Of course the part no one grasped was this and what it was all about

FYI this comes from the mirror you just walked in front of , not me. BTW this had very little to do with gear but the space between our ears.
Title: Franke & Heidecke became insovent
Post by: Graham Mitchell on June 29, 2009, 09:41:48 am
Quote from: gwhitf
Thanks for getting me back on track, Mr. Mancuso. I stand corrected. I went to your site to see the difference between 35 and MF, and it's clearly there. How did you achieve that excellent "spinning M", and those excellent quality animated GIFs in the upper left corner? I see what you're talking about now. Thanks....

gwhitf, a.k.a. xxx, it is really going too far to attack other posters while you hide behind a false name.
Title: Franke & Heidecke became insovent
Post by: Graham Mitchell on June 29, 2009, 09:49:01 am
Quote from: John-S
Graham,

You are back to your same old policing bullshit. Let it between them. No one said anything about Sinar for you to jump in.

lol, the hypocrisy is staggering (http://forums.rennlist.com/rennforums/graemlins/roflmao.gif) Nice language too. All in all an excellent post. Keep up the good work.
Title: Franke & Heidecke became insovent
Post by: tho_mas on June 29, 2009, 10:02:47 am
Quote from: foto-z
gwhitf
Graham, if gwhitf is the respective person it's totally up to him to post with nick name. It's very bad style to post his real name.
Please edit your post immediately...
Title: Franke & Heidecke became insovent
Post by: Guy Mancuso on June 29, 2009, 10:03:33 am
Quote from: foto-z
gwhitf, a.k.a. Mark Tucker, it is really going too far to attack other posters while you hide behind a false name.


Thanks Graham. Nice to know he can still throw insults around and hide behind a name handle. Really showed his professionalism here and the constant whining we all have to endure. No interest here anymore if this is allowed
Title: Franke & Heidecke became insovent
Post by: billy on June 29, 2009, 10:09:08 am
Quote from: John-S
Graham,

You are back to your same old policing bullshit. Let it between them. These two said nothing about Sinar for you to jump in.


funniest comment I have read here in a while!
Title: Franke & Heidecke became insovent
Post by: ctz on June 29, 2009, 10:12:41 am
Quote from: John-S
Like baseball cards, I'll trade to keep a gwhitf to rid a handful of x, y and z other posters.

haha, yeah
...me too.
Title: Franke & Heidecke became insovent
Post by: rainer_v on June 29, 2009, 10:58:07 am
stay cool. it never had led in any forum to useful result this silly kind of barking each others .....
Title: Franke & Heidecke became insovent
Post by: michael on June 29, 2009, 11:04:24 am
I think that this thread has run its course, and as happens all too frequently has degenerrated into name calling.

This thread is closed.

Michael