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Author Topic: Rhe RED Med format  (Read 78093 times)

jjj

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« Reply #180 on: November 18, 2008, 09:48:22 pm »

Quote from: stevephoto
no, film is normally shot at 24/30 frames per second which works for moving images not stills...
No really!
I've worked as a stills photographer BTW and know exactly what the difference is. Doing both at the same time is that you don't even have to change cameras, nothing to do with frame grabbing.

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...so if you want to get stills from a live action shoot, you just run the film camera at a fast enough speed
You seem to be confusing frame rate with shutter speed - very different! Doesn't work anyway if you do increase shutter speed, as if you up the shutter speed, then the film starts to strobe.
'Dead Set' and 'Saving Private Ryan' used high shutter speeds for effect - both times to make the situation more horrible!

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yes of course, you have always been able to do that if you wanted with film,
Not frame grabbing!!
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but you really got to think about what the live shoot is for and what the stills would be used for - you can have a stills guy on set and the stills for an ad campaign have a whole different criteria than grabbing the stills off the live action
It is different from film
Are you asuming that someone is incapable of doing good stills if doing filming. Plus in advertising, you often see animated[not cartoon!] versions of the still shot or variations thereof


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clients learned to be cheapskates a long time ago, even when advertising companies tell them that the way to get through a recession and be number one at the other end - is to spend spend spend - but clients regardless of recessions always want top quality at bottom dollar price - you better make sure you are providing them with that when you turn up with your live action and your stills or they are not going to pay you and you will be eating the cost of two shoots
Quality in print and filming has been dropping for the fast few years. People are more accepting of shit quality images these days, heck just look how popular youtube and camera phones are.
Heck, frame grabs will look better than some of the crap I've seen used for print ads of late.
Plus why assume I or anyone else will suddenly produce crap if doing filming. It's just a different brief after all and if you are adaptable/professional, then it's not an issue.
Plus lots of us already have experience with filmmaking and when it comes to dealing with the RAW workflow, photographers will be one up on many DoPs.
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pss

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« Reply #181 on: November 19, 2008, 12:42:36 am »

http://prolost.blogspot.com/

interesting/critical/analytical look at the red system.....

i don't think that red will revolutionize advertising photography in 2009.....but it is an indication of where things are heading.....

and when i read some of the statements here my toenails are curling under....

first: print is dead...yes it is.....i am sure there will be mags around and there are actually better magazines coming out now...but they have a completely different business model....not based on advertising/subscription....so they are great looking glossies more coffee table books then rags...they pay nothing....they actually charge you to shoot for them....the photographers have to produce the shoots to have their stuff run....consider it advertising/promo pieces...

all i can say about streaming media is that i watch amazing looking music videos and youtube content on my iphone....i stream pandora in my car...all on EDGE (yes i still have the old one) which tops out at 135kb afaik...it's all about compression and things will get better and better...

has anyone mentioned TV....that is dying as well....at least the way it is delivered....and ad budgets are cut there left and right as well....

nobody is saying that all this will change overnight....but i prefer to be in at the beginning....

and cellpones are P&S these days.....a 1mpix camera is total overkill for myspace and such and that is where most images are viewed these days....people actually are starting to ask for a more cellphone pic style....

all this does not mean that there aren't people out there doing well shooting 4x5 and 8x10 film.....find your niche....this is of course much harder in a commercial environment....

i really want someone to explain to me where MF back fit in in all this...i am talking about commercial shooting....i understand that people own them now and should be happy for a long time with the quality but who will buy one in a year form now? especially when the DSLRs are catching up and nothing new is in the pipeline for MF?

don't get me wrong.....a would really really like to have a Hy6 with a P65 back (that's actually one of the problems right there....) but i know that there is no job out there that requires it....just isn't....

technology is going places we can't even start to imagine....
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/technology/7734038.stm
« Last Edit: November 19, 2008, 12:59:22 am by pss »
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Morgan_Moore

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« Reply #182 on: November 19, 2008, 02:00:15 am »

Quote from: pss
i really want someone to explain to me where MF back fit in in all this...i am talking about commercial shooting....i understand that people own them now and should be happy for a long time with the quality but who will buy one in a year form now? especially when the DSLRs are catching up and nothing new is in the pipeline for MF?


http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/technology/7734038.stm

It seems to me that when I went for a DB they had a real strong USP - DSLRs could not produce a nice magazine DPS or a file acceptable to Corbis/Getty - to shoot with a DSLR was to throw ones work in the bin

I used to shoot Nikon D1 and Mam645 at the same time - truely horrible

That really strong USP is gone now

The MF makers need to find another strong USP or they will get ten times more marginal than they are now

Of course they still have USP over DSLRs - really big files - flash synch -DOF look - view camera potential

But those USPs are marginal compared to 'getty/my client wont accept DSLR'

Without a USP they will become the tools of a tiny minority of obsessives - art guys who need 'the look' - people creating panoramic wall size installations etc

One real strength of a big file is the abilily to zoom like google earth - so there will still be a market for the chips

Maybe there will be new applications that require the quality - interactive web stuff where the users pans and scrolls around

S
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Carsten W

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« Reply #183 on: November 19, 2008, 03:16:01 am »

Quote from: Morgan_Moore
www.volvo.co.uk rolls movie fine, vimeo works well - I dont think its that far off

S

I guess we had different experiences. I went to the Volvo site, and first of all, I had to click down two levels before finding any movies. That is how far they wanted to bury it, given the risk that impatient people simply move on before the content is there. Then I tried to view a movie for one car, but it wanted my nickname, and then didn't work. Then I went into another area, and had to wait 8 seconds before I was treated to a 15 second animated globe before really getting to the point where I could make more choices (flash).

This is far from compelling, and keep in mind that people who buy cars are going to be a lot more patient than people who buy dresses or shoes. You or I might sit down and plod through it, but TV and media have brought most people up with hopelessly short attention spans. The bandwidth is going to have to be immense to deliver such high-quality content with a maximum of 1-2 seconds delay, to make it *really* compelling.

The internet just isn't ready for this, and it will take time. I work for a company which bet large that internet bandwidth would increase fast enough to support new, more interactive content, and the idea failed dramatically, leaving us to pick up the pieces and try to find other customers for the (expensively developed) product.

You might be able to use moving shots in ads before movies in the cinemas, but then cinemas are dying, and anyway, that is already in place, so nothing new there. TV is of course also there, but where is the new place to put all the new moving shots? I don't see it yet.
« Last Edit: November 19, 2008, 03:17:11 am by carstenw »
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Carsten W - [url=http://500px.com/Carste

Carsten W

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« Reply #184 on: November 19, 2008, 03:20:06 am »

Quote from: Tim Lüdin
Hey carsten, where do you live?
The internet in switzerland is very fast. We have no problem with movies etc.

I live in Germany, and have 16Mbps internet, which is plenty fast to deliver such content. The servers can't do it though, and I rarely reach even 1/16th of that throughput. In fact, asking where I live proves my point: the internet isn't ready. It should be fast everywhere (at least in the target market) before such a business model can truly fly. Otherwise we are looking at local content only.

I agree with you btw. It will come, and it will be compelling. But it is too early now. It will take at least 3-5 years, so hold off on those Red cameras for a while. The next 2 gen 35mm, MF and video will be there by then.
« Last Edit: November 19, 2008, 03:22:18 am by carstenw »
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Carsten W

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« Reply #185 on: November 19, 2008, 03:32:47 am »

Here are some questions for the pros:

- How much of all your advertising work is destined for print?
- How much of that is static, ie. the subject doesn't move (apart from perhaps breathing)?
- How much interest is there currently for moving shots, and where does it end up?

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Dustbak

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« Reply #186 on: November 19, 2008, 04:38:03 am »

About 50% of my work goes to print. The other to web. All of it is static, some of it is breathing . I do have several clients now that would like to see 360 product presentations in the near future.

Nobody has ever asked me to do video but I have to admit I have never been actively pushing that. The Netherlands is the best connected country in the World (right after Finland I believe) and video over the web is a nice gimmick for parties that want to flush a big budget but most parties are not particularly willing to flush budget for it.

Now, don't get me wrong. Moving is growing every year. It might very well be that 1 day still is just a phase of something moving, just not yet now. Which doesn't say it is not a nice niche that has big future potential.

As I pointed out in another thread and earlier in this. For me, I see much more in CGI combined with photography as a future direction.
« Last Edit: November 19, 2008, 04:38:29 am by Dustbak »
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E_Edwards

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« Reply #187 on: November 19, 2008, 06:25:14 am »

Absolutely in agreement about the Internet not being ready yet, also, Dustbak, I wouldn't put too much of my money on CGI, too costly for bulk, and too tiresome after a while.

100 per cent of my work is print,  often with additional usage for web. I am not interested in web photography only, too cheap and too much competition, though if things dried up elsewhere I could divert to web overnight and be just as competitive as the rest.

Photography for print will be here for many years to come. Print presses are definitely going to go digital, which will mean smaller runs, but more niche, more targeted, and more affordable, all requiring photography.
« Last Edit: November 19, 2008, 06:25:31 am by E_Edwards »
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Carsten W

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« Reply #188 on: November 19, 2008, 11:43:29 am »

Quote from: E_Edwards
Absolutely in agreement about the Internet not being ready yet, also, Dustbak, I wouldn't put too much of my money on CGI, too costly for bulk, and too tiresome after a while.

With some limitations, I disagree. The thing is, and this is partly responsible for the increasing popularity of this path, that rendering CG+photo composites is not only viable, and most people cannot tell the difference when it is done right, but it is also the only solution in some cases, like the CAD data being ready, but the product not, or there being no product in the part of the world the shooting needs to happen in (Lamborghini in Tibet kinda thing).
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TMARK

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« Reply #189 on: November 19, 2008, 11:52:30 am »

I believe that here in the US one of the big infrastucture products, which will be used to "prime the pump" and drag us out of recession, will be creating a viable super-broadband infrastucture.  Look for something that will surpass the Netherlands in (proposed) scope.  This may give us the bandwidth that is needed for much faster internet speeds.

In any case, the future is now.  Red Epic or no Red Epic.  This whole thread is like a white paper on where things are going and where they are. When we shoot videos for instore displays (50" 1080P) I end up booking a stills shoot from it.  We end up recreating what we shot for motion a week later but with different lighting (strobe), using a Canon.  Clients are starting to see the savings from hanging a stills shoot on the end of the primary video production.  Not just BBDO and Wieden Kennedy see this.  The visual merchandizing people at Diesel and DKNY see this. The inhouse people at Verizon see it clear as day.  

On this board I see people putting up roadblocks, finding excuses.  If you stand still (no pun intended) the market is going to RUN YOU OVER like one of those crappy trams in Talinn.  Not to say stills shooters will be no more, but you will be marginalized to the point of, well, insolvency.  I think this should be taken as warning.

PSS:  you are so right.  Print is dead as far as providing a sizeable income for photographers not on retainer for Vogue.  The new high quality glossies are as you say, like coffee table books.  The French magazines have been doing this since at least the '80's.  There is something that is just luxurious about a printed mag in the silicone tft lcd world.  But circulation is low, they don't rely on ad rates anyway, they are expensive, and you have to pay, not only for production, but a share of printing and the mags admin costs.  I'm OK with this.  Its a great promo piece and it lets you get your creative freak-on, but its not commercial work.  

Exciting times.
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gwhitf

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« Reply #190 on: November 19, 2008, 12:03:04 pm »

This is a subscription article, but you can get the gist of it in the Preview:

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB122705787917439625.html
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jjj

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« Reply #191 on: November 19, 2008, 01:38:10 pm »

Quote from: Dustbak
As I pointed out in another thread and earlier in this. For me, I see much more in CGI combined with photography as a future direction.
I've thought for a long time now that CGI will replace a lot of product photography and it's already starting to happen. You'll get craftsmen doing lovely work in it just as you get photographers doing nice stuff now [and vice versa]. The work will still be there, just it'll be done by someone with a different skillset. I believe car manufacturers already use CGI models ready 'built' to be slotted into location shots.
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E_Edwards

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« Reply #192 on: November 19, 2008, 02:11:18 pm »

Quote from: TMARK
PSS:  you are so right.  Print is dead as far as providing a sizeable income for photographers not on retainer for Vogue.


I think you may be generalising a little. I've never had more print work in my life, and I'm just about to sign a contract to photograph thousands of items completely out of my field of expertise. I think good contacts and networking is what it's all about. Of course, this may well evaporate, but  I've heard the same stories so many times over the years about the end of photography, no work, etc. that you have to take it all with a pinch of salt. Some areas have no doubt suffered incredibly, but likewise, other areas have bloomed.

As for the store LCD displays... they may well take off, but from what I've recently seen on my trip to NY, very few stores had them, or if they did, I didn't notice (which defeats the whole purpose). Incidentally, I found that shop and store displays are generally behind what you find in Europe. Even Tiffany's once notorious window displays were looking a bit staid. I lingered outside for a while, but no-one was looking at them anyway, have we become so immune?  Going to the Apple store nor far from there was akin to torture, I asked one of the guys in turquoise t-shirt about a particular Mac and he seemed a bit clueless, but he was well rehearsed in trying to sell me the Apple care policy.


Edward
« Last Edit: November 19, 2008, 02:14:37 pm by E_Edwards »
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E_Edwards

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« Reply #193 on: November 19, 2008, 02:31:33 pm »

Quote from: jjj
I've thought for a long time now that CGI will replace a lot of product photography and it's already starting to happen. You'll get craftsmen doing lovely work in it just as you get photographers doing nice stuff now [and vice versa]. The work will still be there, just it'll be done by someone with a different skillset. I believe car manufacturers already use CGI models ready 'built' to be slotted into location shots.

Yes, I agree.

But it will still be niche, as not everything translates well. There is cost effectiveness and there is also aesthetics to consider.

To me, CGI photography often looks just too perfect, something that may be good in certain cases, but in many other cases it lacks soul.

The thing about photography is that it's often the imperfections that make things real or desirable. The unexpected play of light as it hits a surface and rebounds, the depth, the blurriness, the specular reflections, the magic and the vision and sensitivity of the photographer are all qualities that many CGI photos are sadly lacking.

True, you could recreate a lot of that with plenty of time, knowledge and budget...but why not go and shoot it for real in the first place. In the great majority of cases, it will be cheaper, quicker and honest.

And it may even have soul. Now, what on earth does that mean!
« Last Edit: November 19, 2008, 02:34:52 pm by E_Edwards »
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TMARK

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« Reply #194 on: November 19, 2008, 03:13:37 pm »

Quote from: E_Edwards
I think you may be generalising a little. I've never had more print work in my life, and I'm just about to sign a contract to photograph thousands of items completely out of my field of expertise. I think good contacts and networking is what it's all about. Of course, this may well evaporate, but  I've heard the same stories so many times over the years about the end of photography, no work, etc. that you have to take it all with a pinch of salt. Some areas have no doubt suffered incredibly, but likewise, other areas have bloomed.

As for the store LCD displays... they may well take off, but from what I've recently seen on my trip to NY, very few stores had them, or if they did, I didn't notice (which defeats the whole purpose). Incidentally, I found that shop and store displays are generally behind what you find in Europe. Even Tiffany's once notorious window displays were looking a bit staid. I lingered outside for a while, but no-one was looking at them anyway, have we become so immune?  Going to the Apple store nor far from there was akin to torture, I asked one of the guys in turquoise t-shirt about a particular Mac and he seemed a bit clueless, but he was well rehearsed in trying to sell me the Apple care policy.


Edward

I was not generalizing I just wasn't clear.  I'm addressing people photography, be it fashion, beauty, portraits, etc. for advertising.

As to your NYC trip, I have news for people who don't live here:  NYC is like the third world, but with good basic governmental services.  Also remember that the people who pump a few billion into the local economy are not getting big bonuses this year.  The fear, retrenchment and loathing is palpable. The displays aren't great this year.  There may be flagship stores on 5th etc., but my clients get expirimental with their new stores, not the old ones that have a long and inflexible lease, and strong year on year sales.  Been to Honolulu lately?  Vegas?  Check out the DKNY stores in those cities.  Check out the Milan Diesel store.  Big displays, innovative use of video and display technology.  The large roll up LCD's are really, really amazing.  That will bring some change when they finally hit the market.  

Did you see all the motion on display in NYC?  Duane Reede strores? Many have LCD's.  The Subway has LCD motion ads, big low res things.  2/3 train entrance at Wall and William, a few on 23rd street, F I believe.  Bryant Park, too.  Over at the World Financial Center all of the businesses run their own promo videos on big LCDs.  I'm seeing individual brand displays running motion on small LCD's on the shelf, when previously it would have been a print ad, poster type thing.  In Wal-Mart, (that's right, Wal-Mart! In CT) they have lots of little video's running, promoting their specials.  Lots of motion graphics.  Nike store?  PowerHouse Books?  They all have motion stuff that can be grouped into the "In Store" catagory.  

Sorry about your Apple store experience, I guess.
« Last Edit: November 19, 2008, 03:23:01 pm by TMARK »
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E_Edwards

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« Reply #195 on: November 19, 2008, 03:25:47 pm »

Quote from: TMARK
I was not generalizing I just wasn't clear.  I'm addressing people photography, be it fashion, beauty, portraits, etc. for advertising.

As to your NYC trip, I have news for people who don't live here:  NYC is like the third world, but with good basic governmental services.  Also remember that the people who pump a few billion into the local economy are not getting big bonuses this year.  The fear, retrenchment and loathing is palpable. The displays aren't great this year.  There may be flagship stores on 5th etc., but my clients get expirimental with their new stores, not the old ones that have a long and inflexible lease, and strong year on year sales.  Been to Honolulu lately?  Vegas?  Check out the DKNY stores in those cities.  Check out the Milan Diesel store.  Big displays, innovative use of video and display technology.  The large roll up LCD's are really, really amazing.  That will bring some change when they finally hit the market.  

Sorry about your Apple store experience, I guess.

What you are telling me is that NY is not as Hi Tech as other parts of the US. I must travel more! The Apple store service is almost as chaotic here in London, so nothing new.
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TMARK

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« Reply #196 on: November 19, 2008, 03:47:06 pm »

Quote from: E_Edwards
What you are telling me is that NY is not as Hi Tech as other parts of the US. I must travel more! The Apple store service is almost as chaotic here in London, so nothing new.

The newer cities are hi tech. Did you ride the Subway here?  It is essentially the same as it was in 1980, with a few exceptions!
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pss

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« Reply #197 on: November 19, 2008, 04:01:37 pm »

just got off the phone with a friend of mine from NY.....got called to shoot again for an unnamed conde nast publication we all know very well.....he was prepared to have his budget cut but they cut it 50% across the board...his agent brought it up a bit from that but this is the status these days.....and don't forget that the people handing out the jobs are worried as well because it saves a lot of money to cut jobs.....and budgets....

either way, i am sure we will survive, but all this is just an indication of a changing market and imo it is better to adapt early on....i am a still shooter but shooting clips instead of stills would not bother me at all....that does not mean that i have to become a director overnight....which actually would not be so bad either....
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jjj

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« Reply #198 on: November 19, 2008, 04:15:18 pm »

Quote from: TMARK
The newer cities are hi tech. Did you ride the Subway here?  It is essentially the same as it was in 1980, with a few exceptions!
....the people riding it are 28 yrs older!
« Last Edit: November 19, 2008, 04:16:48 pm by jjj »
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E_Edwards

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« Reply #199 on: November 19, 2008, 04:18:29 pm »

Quote from: TMARK
The newer cities are hi tech. Did you ride the Subway here?  It is essentially the same as it was in 1980, with a few exceptions!

This time we used taxis all the time. The previous time, we got really scared on the subway when we ended up at a station and there was no-one around, all we could hear were distant echoes of footsteps coming our way and fearing we would get robbed or attacked, just as it happens in the movies!

B&H seemed to have moved everything to the first floor. Still a great store, you are so lucky to have it, my daughter was fascinated by all the orthodox jews in there! Shops have more assistants per capita than in the UK and strangely for a big city like NY, we found the majority of people quite friendly and chatty. Apart from the Apple store which was geared for cattle, we found service was miles better than in the UK, but we found that adding 15, 18 or even 20 per cent to every restaurant bill was a little too much.

I was told by a friend who has worked in both countries that US advertising, design and branding agency fees are quite a bit lower in the States. I have a feeling that you probably have to work harder and push yourselves harder as photographers over there.
« Last Edit: November 19, 2008, 04:39:42 pm by E_Edwards »
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