Luminous Landscape Forum

Equipment & Techniques => Medium Format / Film / Digital Backs – and Large Sensor Photography => Topic started by: ynp on November 13, 2008, 05:39:56 am

Title: Rhe RED Med format
Post by: ynp on November 13, 2008, 05:39:56 am
645 and 6x17 sensors announced today. No delivery date (and year) yet...

http://reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?t=21835&page=3 (http://reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?t=21835&page=3)
Does it mean that with the new sensor Live View to the LCD screen will be possible?
Yevgeny
Title: Rhe RED Med format
Post by: mcfoto on November 13, 2008, 05:47:14 am
[quote name='ynp' date='Nov 13 2008, 06:39 AM' post='236627']
645 and 6x17 sensors announced today. No delivery date (and year) yet...

http://reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?t=21835&page=3 (http://reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?t=21835&page=3)
Does it mean that with the new sensor Live View to the LCD screen will be possible?
Yevgeny


Hi
IS THIS GAME SET MATCH!!!!!!!!!!!!
Denis
Title: Rhe RED Med format
Post by: BernardLanguillier on November 13, 2008, 06:02:51 am
The interesting stuff is one to two years away...

Why on earth would you want to give your competition this kind of advanced warning???

This is as close to a suicide as it gets. How arrogant do you have to be to think that Japanese companies won't be able to totally overshoot you if you give them a clear target...

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Rhe RED Med format
Post by: heinrichvoelkel on November 13, 2008, 06:04:00 am
http://www.engadget.com/photos/reds-digita...ficial/1155680/ (http://www.engadget.com/photos/reds-digital-still-and-motion-camera-system-now-official/1155680/)

the link above does show sensor sizes


Looks like, we can have digital panoramic photography with live view and handholdable.

Exciting times we live in



Title: Rhe RED Med format
Post by: heinrichvoelkel on November 13, 2008, 06:05:30 am
and look at the lenses....

http://www.engadget.com/photos/reds-digita...ficial/1155676/ (http://www.engadget.com/photos/reds-digital-still-and-motion-camera-system-now-official/1155676/)


Title: Rhe RED Med format
Post by: heinrichvoelkel on November 13, 2008, 06:07:41 am
Quote from: BernardLanguillier
The interesting stuff is one to two years away...

Why on earth would you want to give your competition this kind of advanced warning???

This is as close to a suicide as it gets. How arrogant do you have to be to think that Japanese companies won't be able to totally overshoot you if you give them a clear target...

Cheers,
Bernard

Since the Red One is out, neither Sony nor anyother manufacturer did go after them....


But I actually prefer a roadmap, so I can invest my money accordingly


Title: Rhe RED Med format
Post by: BernardLanguillier on November 13, 2008, 06:14:18 am
Quote from: heinrichvoelkel
Since the Red One is out, neither Sony nor anyother manufacturer did go after them....

Right, but this announcement can only be read as a frontal attack.

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Rhe RED Med format
Post by: Imaginara on November 13, 2008, 06:14:43 am
And invest them you would have to =)

Note the prices? $45 000 for basically a 65MP full frame medium format back that can do 1-50 FPS? Anyone wants to sell their H3D/Phase P65/Leaf/Sinar to me for nothing so you can go spend 55k + some more in 2 years time?

Feels more like RED dreamt up a really really really awesome system first, then noted how much it would cost and now trying to get people so strung up on the high ends so they invest in the low ends that exist now (or in 09)
Title: Rhe RED Med format
Post by: lecter on November 13, 2008, 06:22:33 am
Quote from: Imaginara
And invest them you would have to =)

Note the prices? $45 000 for basically a 65MP full frame medium format back that can do 1-50 FPS? Anyone wants to sell their H3D/Phase P65/Leaf/Sinar to me for nothing so you can go spend 55k + some more in 2 years time?

Feels more like RED dreamt up a really really really awesome system first, then noted how much it would cost and now trying to get people so strung up on the high ends so they invest in the low ends that exist now (or in 09)

Although you must admit, being able to invest in a lower end, and then when switching "Brains", you keep all the add on bits, is a pretty nifty idea.

Throwing away perfectly good bodies every year or two does get a big tiring.

Rob
Title: Rhe RED Med format
Post by: heinrichvoelkel on November 13, 2008, 06:27:06 am
Quote from: Imaginara
And invest them you would have to =)

Note the prices? $45 000 for basically a 65MP full frame medium format back that can do 1-50 FPS? Anyone wants to sell their H3D/Phase P65/Leaf/Sinar to me for nothing so you can go spend 55k + some more in 2 years time?

Feels more like RED dreamt up a really really really awesome system first, then noted how much it would cost and now trying to get people so strung up on the high ends so they invest in the low ends that exist now (or in 09)


you're right...it is not gonna be cheap...but at least it is modular...the whole system...upgradable, etc...
Title: Rhe RED Med format
Post by: Graham Mitchell on November 13, 2008, 06:28:55 am
Interesting sensor, but seriously... does anyone think this is an alternative to a medium format camera?

Take the 645 module at $45.000. Who knows how much else must be added before you have a working camera.

Then you still have a huge, heavy, expensive camera with no optical viewfinder. Probably very slow flash sync. Image quality as yet unknown.

I did a shoot on a film set recently. Was the first time I get to touch a Red camera. Was amazed by how large it was, and not in a good way.

Title: Rhe RED Med format
Post by: Graham Mitchell on November 13, 2008, 06:32:02 am
Quote from: Imaginara
$45 000 for basically a 65MP full frame medium format back that can do 1-50 FPS?

$45K is only a module. You need to add a lot more parts.

It makes no sense so compare offerings from MFDB makers today with what Red is dreaming of offering in a few years. I'm sure all the MFDBs will have moved on by then.
Title: Rhe RED Med format
Post by: ynp on November 13, 2008, 06:36:28 am
I liked the design and modularity of the RED System, it looks like a ultra-modern Sinar-M.  

IMO the announced price is irrelevant, the market is changing very fast and the technology  is on the march as well. I am interested in the "Live View to the Back" feature and I hope that the new generation of "traditional digital backs" will be able to use the new technology.

Does anybody know who will be  manufacturing the sensor? Can we hope to get the "Live View to the Back" with Sinar, Hasselblad, P1 or Leaf product?
 
Thanks,
Yevgeny
Title: Rhe RED Med format
Post by: andrewparker on November 13, 2008, 06:44:05 am
This sends my mind back to the Obama thread; undeniably impressive, looks like the answer, huge promises, all things to all people, reality sure to be disappointing by comparison with the build up.

It also dresses interestingly, like Obama. The look reminds me of a modern American motor car.

Unfortunately, as we know from long studying of this forum, details are decisively important. Hype is temporary, however compelling.

Andrew Parker
Title: Rhe RED Med format
Post by: BernardLanguillier on November 13, 2008, 07:14:19 am
Quote from: foto-z
It doesn't say the frame rate for 65MP is 50fps. The video mode runs up to 50 fps but that is only running at 9 MP.

Don't think so. 9K refers to the number of pixels on the long end of the frame.

Their claim appears to be 50 fps at 65MP.

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Rhe RED Med format
Post by: flashfredrikson on November 13, 2008, 07:20:49 am
Quote from: foto-z
It doesn't say the frame rate for 65MP is 50fps. The video mode runs up to 50 fps but that is only running at 9 MP.
Wrong. It says 9K not 9MP. In the movie world they use K which is the long size in pixels, it equals 65 MP then...

Ever used an 35mm Arri Graham? Those things are huge compared to the Red one...

Overall, everybody laughed at Red when the first announced their camera, keep laughing but I have seen this thing come true and so will the new ones, I am sure... And this little company is definitley changing a lot.

cheers,
martin
Title: Rhe RED Med format
Post by: jing q on November 13, 2008, 07:49:56 am
HOLY F**** CRAP
that is all I can say.
Anyone notice the 617 SENSOR?
Title: Rhe RED Med format
Post by: Graham Mitchell on November 13, 2008, 07:51:56 am
Quote from: flashfredrikson
Wrong. It says 9K not 9MP. In the movie world they use K which is the long size in pixels, it equals 65 MP then...

Ever used an 35mm Arri Graham? Those things are huge compared to the Red one...

Overall, everybody laughed at Red when the first announced their camera, keep laughing but I have seen this thing come true and so will the new ones, I am sure... And this little company is definitley changing a lot.

cheers,
martin

Woops, you're right, it says 9K. I also noticed that it uses compression to achieve that data rate so once again it's a bit soon to celebrate. I doubt a compressed movie frame will be competition for a 60MP MFDB frame but we'll see if they ever make this thing

I'm just hoping that the sensor finds its way into some medium format cameras if it's any good.

Btw, I am not laughing at Red for movie use. Far from it. I am just laughing at the people talking as if this huge camera will really replace the still camera market.
Title: Rhe RED Med format
Post by: jing q on November 13, 2008, 07:59:33 am
Quote from: BernardLanguillier
The interesting stuff is one to two years away...

Why on earth would you want to give your competition this kind of advanced warning???

This is as close to a suicide as it gets. How arrogant do you have to be to think that Japanese companies won't be able to totally overshoot you if you give them a clear target...

Cheers,
Bernard

I think that's what's amazing about RED.
the owner seems interested in being progressive instead of the trickle-trickle upgrades that all other companies seem to be offering. Just like Tesla and Google...
This will definitely force some hands to release something better faster!

Btw look at his upgrade offer. The RED ONE users get a FULL credit towards an upgrade.
Respectable or what?
Kudos to them.
and BTW take a look at the 6x17 configuration, looks like a handholdable solution
(http://www.blogcdn.com/www.engadget.com/media/2008/11/red-dsmcpicture-14-13nov08.jpg)
The other photos look huge but that might be because they are all configured with additional parts for taking video

one more thing
the lens mount is a MAMIYA mount for the 645 sensor
GREAT! What with the Leica S2 lenses being compatible I'm starting to think that it's a good idea to hold on to my mamiya system
(http://www.blogcdn.com/www.engadget.com/media/2008/11/red-dsmcpicture-8-13nov08.jpg)
Title: Rhe RED Med format
Post by: Carsten W on November 13, 2008, 08:25:59 am
Quote from: jing q
and BTW take a look at the 6x17 configuration, looks like a handholdable solution

You might want to add a battery back, and storage. That would be my personal preference anyway  Unless that is built into the grips?
Title: Rhe RED Med format
Post by: yaya on November 13, 2008, 09:08:24 am
Quote from: jing q
I think that's what's amazing about RED.
the owner seems interested in being progressive instead of the trickle-trickle upgrades that all other companies seem to be offering. Just like Tesla and Google...
This will definitely force some hands to release something better faster!

FWIW I believe he owns an Aptus 75 with an RZ....

Yair
Title: Rhe RED Med format
Post by: paulmoorestudio on November 13, 2008, 10:16:50 am
Quote from: ynp
645 and 6x17 sensors announced today. No delivery date (and year) yet...

http://reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?t=21835&page=3 (http://reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?t=21835&page=3)
Does it mean that with the new sensor Live View to the LCD screen will be possible?
Yevgeny


holy smokes batman!
I feel like a beat-cop with a night stick looking at all the kit in the bat cave.. wow.
Title: Rhe RED Med format
Post by: jing q on November 13, 2008, 10:20:30 am
Quote from: yaya
FWIW I believe he owns an Aptus 75 with an RZ....

Yair

Well because he doesn't have a 645 sensor yet...grin
but I'm sure if Leaf comes up with something better he'll still have a Leaf!
Title: Rhe RED Med format
Post by: Eric Myrvaagnes on November 13, 2008, 10:58:34 am
Aw shucks! They announce this just after I go out and get a brand new Canon G10. I wonder if the 617 Monstro Mysterium will fit in my shirt pocket?    
Title: Rhe RED Med format
Post by: SeanPuckett on November 13, 2008, 11:50:18 am
I waited two years, getting by (very well, thanks) with my D200, sniffing around looking for the right MF or FF camera to make my next big move.  And I'm so glad I haven't jumped yet.  A full frame Scarlet system is perfect for me.  And the idea that I can use both Canon and Nikon lenses on the same box (helloooo 85/1.2) basically makes me wet my pants.

To folks who suggest that RED can't deliver -- you were wrong before.  They'll do it, and guys like me who have been fed up with years of crap from digital MF companies who can't build a decent camera back interface, and loathing Canon and Nikon who keep selling the same locked-down system bodies with marginal updates and no customization possibilities are now drooling and making plans for lines of credit so we can fill wheelbarrows full of money to give to Jim Jannard.

To Canon and Nikon -- dump out your diapers and go home, you're done.  Marginalized.  If Nikon introduces a modular system in a week, I'll eat some of these words, but I can't imagine they would.  

It's a great time to be alive and be a photographer.
Title: Rhe RED Med format
Post by: RobertJ on November 13, 2008, 12:44:13 pm
I agree.  I'm glad I haven't upgraded to anything, because I knew RED was going to announce something crazy.  I thought it would be in December, not this soon!

I see a lot of skeptics, and that's fine.  But RED has already delivered with the RED ONE.  There's no reason to bash them, or to defend your precious Leaf/Sinar/Phase backs and camera equipment.  Get over it.
Title: Rhe RED Med format
Post by: klane on November 13, 2008, 12:50:25 pm
Pretty interesting stuff, especially that 617 sensor! The only thing that bugs me is that all of their stuff looks like it was designed by a group of 10 year olds trying to make it look "cool" as possible.
Title: Rhe RED Med format
Post by: TMARK on November 13, 2008, 12:52:34 pm
We use a Red One.  I don't actually operate it much, as its my partner's rig, but I can tell you, Red makes fine, fine gear with excellent IQ and excellent usability.  They fix problems, make things modular, make things upgradeable, give you what you need and what you want.  They leave all but Nikon and Canon in the dust when it comes to producing a professional camera system that works really really well.  Seriously. The same price as a P65+, but with IMAX quality video, and I can configure it like a DSLR, like an H2/Mamiya AFD, like a movie cam? I can use my Mamiya lenses? I bet it shoots stills really fast.

The thing with Red:  They don't need fan boys defending them or posting excuses.  Every issue we've had has been addressed or answered honestly.  Really impressive.

I wonder which MFDB makers will be around in 2009-10 when the Epic is released?

I wonder what their response will be, now and in the future from the MFDB makers. So much of the industry is looking backwards and is fearful or reactionairies.  If the MFDB makers don't make radical changes to the way they do business, they won't last.
Title: Rhe RED Med format
Post by: ynp on November 13, 2008, 01:04:35 pm
Quote from: TMARK
I wonder which MFDB makers will be around in 2009-10 when the Epic is released?

I wonder what their response will be, now and in the future from the MFDB makers. So much of the industry is looking backwards and is fearful or reactionairies.  If the MFDB makers don't make radical changes to the way they do business, they won't last.

I wonder the same. And I am more interested to have Live View to the LCD screen. I am told that with the current generation of the CCD it is impossible!
Do you know who manufacture the RED sensors? I am reading that RED developed the sensor, but as far as I know they to not own the steppers.
Thank you,
Yevgeny
Title: Rhe RED Med format
Post by: samuel_js on November 13, 2008, 01:17:42 pm
The hole RED thing is pretty funny I think.
Some people think you need the Apollo 13's control room to make a photograph....

I see photography much more simpler that taking pictures with a TRANSFORMER ROBOT.
Title: Rhe RED Med format
Post by: TMARK on November 13, 2008, 01:23:59 pm
Quote from: samuel_js
I see photography much more simpler that taking pictures with a TRANSFORMER ROBOT.

And that is, admirable.
Title: Rhe RED Med format
Post by: Misirlou on November 13, 2008, 01:31:00 pm
It might be fun to keep a copy of this thread, then re-examine it four years from now and see who was right, who was wrong, and why.

Here's my personal 2 cents: This system isn't a competitor for Nikon/Canon/et al DSLRs, at least not to any extent greater than a Hassy V was a competitor for a Canon F1 back in 1980. It's a modular system, and when you put the whole thing together, you end up with something that doesn't really fit into the DSLR form factor.

It will be great for those who need it, but I don't expect you'll see too many parents sitting in the bleachers of football stadiums taking shots of their kids with Red 6X17 rigs. Just the way you didn't see too many parents shooting their kids with Hassys during the big SLR boom of the late '70s. The consumer market will drive Canon/Nikon developments for the forseeable future.

Will I buy a Red rig? Doubtful, for the same reasons I don't have a good MF data back. I just can't afford it. But there was a time when even those of us on the low end of the photo equipment totem pole could easily afford a LF view camera. I don't see any reasonably inexpensive digital solution for LF combined with perspective control on the horizon.
Title: Rhe RED Med format
Post by: Morgan_Moore on November 13, 2008, 01:35:06 pm
I think it is all good

My recent experiments with video just makes me think that movies and stills will converge in the commercial marketplace

I love modular

Hopefully we will get a 800ISO 50FPS digital back for my H1 body and lenses sometime soon

Mybe from Phase or sinar - this will give them a kick

One note-  AF is lense based (red only) and FF onlly at this point - so a 1Ds beater is not cheap or proven

S

Title: Rhe RED Med format
Post by: dustblue on November 13, 2008, 01:37:45 pm
I think red got the same issue which MFDB makers encountered---the price. With a $12,000 FF35 24mp camera(not mention without grip/battery/evf or lcd, and out there one year later from announcement like the sony a900) they can hardly beat the 5dII, which has 1/4th the price, and could get to our hands within weeks.  And with a $45,000 mf sensor, how could they sell it to the photographers who only needs a big and cheap 54LV/H3DII31(of course they'll be even cheaper one year from now)?

The Red is great, really amazing, but they need to do some homework about the market, or they just don't care about a real mass production.
Title: Rhe RED Med format
Post by: Robin Balas on November 13, 2008, 01:37:48 pm
Quote from: ynp
I wonder the same. And I am more interested to have Live View to the LCD screen. I am told that with the current generation of the CCD it is impossible!
Do you know who manufacture the RED sensors? I am reading that RED developed the sensor, but as far as I know they to not own the steppers.
Thank you,
Yevgeny

RED uses CMOS not CCD technology. Their sensors are propriatery in the same way a few MFDB makers have done it lately, so I wouldn't expect them to show up in some other MFDB soon.

Note that they have just caught up with their backorder on RED ONE's and have now delivered +5000 camera systems. Quite good for a new kid on the block and especially when you think of that a typical RED ONE outfit is +/-25-30K$

None of their cameras have a ground glass, and they all shot RAW video and stills in full rez. It features a separate mode for stills which I hope is uncompressed unlike the video. There is no mechanical shutters limiting the flash sync, however a rolling shutter is used and that will not work well with a flash so how they have worked around that one is unknown. How the AF will function is unknown but there is AF and IS on their own lenses.
For the EPIC 645 you will need a storage module like a CF or SSD module, the remote control, the camera handle, lens mount and an EVF or LCD display. An extra battery module is optional as well as an IO module for advanced motion film setups.
Judging by their current price list this should add up to:
Brain 45.000$
CF module 500$
Remote control ??? 1.000$ ???
RED handle (contains 1 battery) ??? 1.500$ ???
EVF 3.000$ / LCD 2.500$
Lens Mount 500$
SUM 51.500$ Almost like a MFDB system here in Norway...
So will I get one? YES!
MHO

And they have screwed up the sensor size in the chart, the 617 is 168mm long not 186mm, both to be 6x17 format and to have square sensels.
Title: Rhe RED Med format
Post by: Morgan_Moore on November 13, 2008, 01:46:44 pm
People seem to be comparing to a stills camera - the red wont win against the 1DSMk5

But what does shooting movie that has grabable stills bring to the party ??

Maybe nothing - maybe everything

Partly dependant on being able to attain movement freezing shutter speeds

I think still advertising images could probably be pulled from footage - to integrate print/web/telly advertising for instance

Now that could be a real worry to stills photographers who dont jump towards the moving image..

S
Title: Rhe RED Med format
Post by: Morgan_Moore on November 13, 2008, 01:50:22 pm
And of course image stabilisation is non existant and AF is single point from 1980s on all MF cameras

(the face recognition on the SR12handy cam needs to be seen to be believed!)

Any system that brings intelligent AF to MF cameras will be a major upgrade

S
Title: Rhe RED Med format
Post by: TMARK on November 13, 2008, 02:31:25 pm
Quote from: dustblue
I think red got the same issue which MFDB makers encountered---the price. With a $12,000 FF35 24mp camera(not mention without grip/battery/evf or lcd, and out there one year later from announcement like the sony a900) they can hardly beat the 5dII, which has 1/4th the price, and could get to our hands within weeks.  And with a $45,000 mf sensor, how could they sell it to the photographers who only needs a big and cheap 54LV/H3DII31(of course they'll be even cheaper one year from now)?

The Red is great, really amazing, but they need to do some homework about the market, or they just don't care about a real mass production.

Regarding the price, well, its STEEP but not if you also shoot video.  If you shoot video, or films, or make commercials, or make music videos, then you really only need an Epic 645 and a 5d2.  In short I think they have done their homework about their market.  
Title: Rhe RED Med format
Post by: Misirlou on November 13, 2008, 02:42:21 pm
Quote from: Morgan_Moore
People seem to be comparing to a stills camera - the red wont win against the 1DSMk5

But what does shooting movie that has grabable stills bring to the party ??

Maybe nothing - maybe everything

Partly dependant on being able to attain movement freezing shutter speeds

I think still advertising images could probably be pulled from footage - to integrate print/web/telly advertising for instance

Now that could be a real worry to stills photographers who dont jump towards the moving image..

S

You're positive the 1DsMk5 won't shoot HD video?
Title: Rhe RED Med format
Post by: dustblue on November 13, 2008, 03:05:51 pm
http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?t=18710 (http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?t=18710)
According to this they want to penetrate in the dslr market. It looks like they still have something new there but I'm not sure. Anyway with the scarlet and epic they sure rules in the videography market, but not the dslr one, not yet.

And I hope they would really give us a "DSLR killer", not for beaten the canon or nikon, but push them to be better.


Quote from: TMARK
Regarding the price, well, its STEEP but not if you also shoot video.  If you shoot video, or films, or make commercials, or make music videos, then you really only need an Epic 645 and a 5d2.  In short I think they have done their homework about their market.
Title: Rhe RED Med format
Post by: Morgan_Moore on November 13, 2008, 03:18:30 pm
Quote from: Misirlou
You're positive the 1DsMk5 won't shoot HD video?

Indeed it might - if fact I would say will

now that could be a problem for Red


Title: Rhe RED Med format
Post by: Morgan_Moore on November 13, 2008, 03:27:40 pm
This should wake up the MF and DSLR manufactuers..

[attachment=9683:red.jpg]

S
Title: Rhe RED Med format
Post by: RobertJ on November 13, 2008, 03:33:27 pm
Quote from: Misirlou
You're positive the 1DsMk5 won't shoot HD video?

It will, but it will most likely only be 1080P, and be recorded with a compressed format, like the 5D2.  It won't take advantage of the full-resolution of the sensor in the video mode like all of the RED modules do.

All RED has to do to compete with a 1DsMk5 is to come up with a new "brain" module.
Title: Rhe RED Med format
Post by: Imaginara on November 13, 2008, 03:39:32 pm
Quote from: Robin Balas
SUM 51.500$ Almost like a MFDB system here in Norway...
So will I get one? YES!
MHO

If you have to pay 352 327 NOK for a medium format digital back system you need to take a trip to Sweden and get it for less than half that

But ofcourse, if you need to shoot video and still all the time, this sytem will basically remove two high-end very expensive systems for you. That would make much more sense. Provided you make enough money on doing both all the time that you need to actually purchase both system.

I guess we'll all see in the future. If nothing else maybe it shakes up the market a bit. It definately can do with some shaking
Title: Rhe RED Med format
Post by: Morgan_Moore on November 13, 2008, 03:39:53 pm
Quote from: T-1000
It will, but it will most likely only be 1080P, and be recorded with a compressed format, like the 5D2.  It won't take advantage of the full-resolution of the sensor in the video mode like all of the RED modules do.

All RED has to do to compete with a 1DsMk5 is to come up with a new "brain" module.

Who knows or actually cares

I cant see the problem of getting a 10FPS camera like the D3 up to 30 or 60 FPs in mirror lock mode using 2010/12 buffering technology and write speeds

not that I undersatnd technology (and dont want to)

I just think canon will make better still cameras than red in 2010 - if anyone wants  a still camera

S
Title: Rhe RED Med format
Post by: Tim Lüdin on November 13, 2008, 04:00:47 pm
I use a RED since January. In fact my partner and I have two now.
Ever  since I was very impressed by its still frame quality.
2 weeks ago, we shot a big comercial for a telecom company here in switzerland.
The ad-agency also booked a still photographer for the prinst stuff. He used his hassy 39mp.
During the shooting the customer checked my laptop with the RED files. I was constantly rendering some still frames and quicktimes
to give the agency some stuff to feel good about.
The agency and the customer coundn't believe what they saw. Even the still photographer (I'm one too) was totaly blown away by
the RED stills.
During lunch break the whole set was discussing the future of still and motion photography.
I told them that the epic will come out next year and about the rumors etc.
From then on the still photographer was joking about learning the motion camera work or he might be out of work...

Dont start to pick my writing apart. All I want to say is "the change is here". Like I said it months before. Faster than we all thougt.
By the way, the ad-angency was Jung von Matt. The best agency in the german speaking part of Europe.
The photographer was one of the best in Switzerland.
So this shows that also these big pros can see it coming and they like the idea of shooting high-end (midformat) and high-end motion with just one cam. Not ideal for everyone, but great for the ad shooters.

And dont question RED to much. They will deliver. They did before.
Jim, Graeme Nattress (is posting here) and the team will pull it off again.
They have the best customer service I know to date. They respond quickly as hell. Now think Hassy, Phase etc....

Interesting times, crazy times.

Tim
Title: Rhe RED Med format
Post by: gwhitf on November 13, 2008, 04:28:47 pm
Quote from: Tim Lüdin
From then on the still photographer was joking about learning the motion camera work or he might be out of work...

I would think a fashion photographer would love something like this -- just turn the Talent loose and let them work. Zillions of wonderful frames.

I wonder about the shutter system -- so this means HMI for everything? No strobe?

And what about shallow focus, shooting wide open, is the viewfinder good enough to really see the focus wide open?

Can't imagine storing (or editing) that many frames though; don't forget to throw in an extra $25k for a couple of Apple XServes for storage.

And can you imagine the edit for the still frame? "Hey Bob, we've spent a couple hours on this one shot, editing, and we've got it narrowed down to 4,804 frames that are contenders; tonight might be another late night; might want to order some more Starbucks..."
Title: Rhe RED Med format
Post by: Graeme Nattress on November 13, 2008, 04:29:18 pm
Working hard as we speak.....

Doing full sensor at a movie fps for maybe over an hour or two of recording is a non-trivial task. It's also completely different to recording a short burst of stills. For motion, timing has to be precise over that length of record, you  can't wait a fraction here or there while a buffer empties or a card rights. It's either real-time or it's not. There's no in between.

The other factor is the sensor skew that especially Nikon shows. Canon has it to an extent. RED uses a CMOS rolling shutter also, but it's much less still again on the skew. Currently the Nikon D90's is practically unusable (in my biassed opinion) and shows severe scaling artifacts taking the full sensor image down to 720p to add insult to injury. This is the difference in a sensor designed primarily for stills with a physical shutter, compared to a camera designed for motion use.

To keep the data rates manageable, we use the REDCODE RAW compression,  which keeps the sensor data raw for post flexibility, but uses wavelet based lossy, but visually lossless compression. That is how we can write the current 4k files at up to 30fps onto a fast compact flash card (until it's full) or onto a small RAID drive or RAM pack for a longer time.

I hope that explains some of the complexities....

Graeme
Title: Rhe RED Med format
Post by: GiorgioNiro on November 13, 2008, 04:59:46 pm
WoW, this is something to think about.
Title: Rhe RED Med format
Post by: Mark_Tuttle on November 13, 2008, 05:51:01 pm
Well, I suppose if they aren't coming out for another year the billionaire will have an opportunity to change the website to some design that doesn't require a 30" monitor in portrait position and adjust the product name to something that doesn't sound like it is from "Pinocchio".  How much will they make on black t-shirts that proudly proclaim in red letters, "Ask Me About My Monstro"
Title: Rhe RED Med format
Post by: witz on November 13, 2008, 07:31:19 pm
ok....

I'm selling everything I own....

putting all the money into apple and google stock.....

going into self induced coma for 2 years......

and when I wake up I'm going to cash out the stocks and buy that 6X17 epic and a hybrid 911 Porsche.

Can somebody feed my dogs for me?
Title: Rhe RED Med format
Post by: thsinar on November 13, 2008, 07:42:31 pm
 

Quote from: witz
ok....

going into self induced coma for 2 years......

Can somebody feed my dogs for me?
Title: Rhe RED Med format
Post by: BernardLanguillier on November 13, 2008, 08:25:03 pm
Quote from: witz
ok....

I'm selling everything I own....

putting all the money into apple and google stock.....

going into self induced coma for 2 years......

If all of us do that... who is going to advertize on Google???...  

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Rhe RED Med format
Post by: bradleygibson on November 13, 2008, 08:27:00 pm
Quote from: Misirlou
You're positive the 1DsMk5 won't shoot HD video?

You're right--it probably will.  1080p, though.
Title: Rhe RED Med format
Post by: bradleygibson on November 13, 2008, 08:31:16 pm
Quote from: Graeme Nattress
Working hard as we speak.....

Doing full sensor at a movie fps for maybe over an hour or two of recording is a non-trivial task. It's also completely different to recording a short burst of stills. For motion, timing has to be precise over that length of record, you  can't wait a fraction here or there while a buffer empties or a card rights. It's either real-time or it's not. There's no in between.

The other factor is the sensor skew that especially Nikon shows. Canon has it to an extent. RED uses a CMOS rolling shutter also, but it's much less still again on the skew. Currently the Nikon D90's is practically unusable (in my biassed opinion) and shows severe scaling artifacts taking the full sensor image down to 720p to add insult to injury. This is the difference in a sensor designed primarily for stills with a physical shutter, compared to a camera designed for motion use.

To keep the data rates manageable, we use the REDCODE RAW compression,  which keeps the sensor data raw for post flexibility, but uses wavelet based lossy, but visually lossless compression. That is how we can write the current 4k files at up to 30fps onto a fast compact flash card (until it's full) or onto a small RAID drive or RAM pack for a longer time.

I hope that explains some of the complexities....

Graeme

Three questions for you:

Do the Epic FF35 and 645 models support AF?  With Canon/Nikon/Mamiya (AF) lenses?

What is the flash sync for these models when shooting a still frame?

Very nice work!  You're definitely turning a lot of heads.

-Brad
Title: Rhe RED Med format
Post by: thsinar on November 13, 2008, 08:40:05 pm
... Those who feed the dogs!

 

Thierry


Quote from: BernardLanguillier
If all of us do that... who is going to advertize on Google???...  

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Rhe RED Med format
Post by: bcooter on November 14, 2008, 12:12:37 am
Quote from: gwhitf
I would think a fashion photographer would love something like this -- just turn the Talent loose and let them work. Zillions of wonderful frames.

I wonder about the shutter system -- so this means HMI for everything? No strobe?

And what about shallow focus, shooting wide open, is the viewfinder good enough to really see the focus wide open?

Can't imagine storing (or editing) that many frames though; don't forget to throw in an extra $25k for a couple of Apple XServes for storage.

And can you imagine the edit for the still frame? "Hey Bob, we've spent a couple hours on this one shot, editing, and we've got it narrowed down to 4,804 frames that are contenders; tonight might be another late night; might want to order some more Starbucks..."

IF RED becomes a medium format killer camera is a few years away and remains to be seen, but what is interesting is that a start from scratch cinema camera at the high end, comes in at roughly the same price as a top of the line digital back.

It is a new way of thinking and could really open up some possiblities for some very different still photographs.  Whose to say in two years we won't have 50fps strobes that sync to the cameras or for that matter different daylight continuous sources.

The cool part is the acceptance of different lens mounts.  The cinema world has had that for years and makes sense in a professional camera, still or motion.

Regardless it's impressive what RED has done from a clean sheet.  

As far as storing and editing there probably isn't  that much of a difference from storing thousands of 40mb raw files and trying to edit through while waiting for the previews to build.

I've edited 1080 footage, looking for small reference stills (granted a 2k camera is much different than a 7k camera) but scrolling through even quicktime is to find a frame is as fast as any browser and in some ways much easier.

If the RED does come to market as a medium format camera (and RED has done pretty much everything they've announced) then I think we will see a big change in the way professional cameras and made, sold, marketed and serviced.

The modular idea is smart and allows you to build and customize a system directly for your needs or change it as new projects and disciplines come along.
Title: Rhe RED Med format
Post by: gwhitf on November 14, 2008, 01:05:36 am
God, they are going thru the Kleenex tonight in the offices of Phase, Leaf, Hassie, and Sinar. Shedding tears by the gallon. Here is the worst economy in eighty years, and everyone's putting off buying a new MF back, waiting for this mess to blow over, and then here comes Red today, promising a camera (maybe) in a year or two, so that means that puts a hold on even more purchases, and for a longer period of time. Everyone now, holding onto their wallets, waiting for Red to come out with this Robocam.

I swear, if I was president, I'd make me a law that said, "You can't announce anything unless you can ship it within a month". Because it just puts a halt on spending. Everybody waiting waiting waiting.

Or, maybe it's just karma coming back at Phase and Sinar. They are the kings of the Wimpy Hamburger Promise, announcing things months and months in advance, except this time, with Red, it came back and bit them in the ass.

My prediction: Look for very appealing deals come February or March.

I'm going to announce a new style of photography to the Art Director world. I won't have one, but I'll just announce it. Let's just watch and see if those P.O.'s to other photographers just immediately don't get signed, and "the job goes on hold". Actually, my whole new business will be to just announce things, just so I can stop the world.
Title: Rhe RED Med format
Post by: PeterA on November 14, 2008, 01:45:09 am
Quote from: gwhitf
God, they are going thru the Kleenex tonight in the offices of Phase, Leaf, Hassie, and Sinar. Shedding tears by the gallon. Here is the worst economy in eighty years, and everyone's putting off buying a new MF back, waiting for this mess to blow over, and then here comes Red today, promising a camera (maybe) in a year or two, so that means that puts a hold on even more purchases, and for a longer period of time. Everyone now, holding onto their wallets, waiting for Red to come out with this Robocam.

I swear, if I was president, I'd make me a law that said, "You can't announce anything unless you can ship it within a month". Because it just puts a halt on spending. Everybody waiting waiting waiting.

Or, maybe it's just karma coming back at Phase and Sinar. They are the kings of the Wimpy Hamburger Promise, announcing things months and months in advance, except this time, with Red, it came back and bit them in the ass.

My prediction: Look for very appealing deals come February or March.

I'm going to announce a new style of photography to the Art Director world. I won't have one, but I'll just announce it. Let's just watch and see if those P.O.'s to other photographers just immediately don't get signed, and "the job goes on hold". Actually, my whole new business will be to just announce things, just so I can stop the world.


You can buy a Red 'one' today and get used to what matters the work-flow - the company will actually reimburse your full money spent against the new models announced - no ifs buts or maybes. teh company has earned enormous credibility amongst its customer base for being customer friendly and honest to deal with. Teh modular designs announced - are nothing short of revolutionary. Sorry that you feel a little peeved - but some people actually like to know what is coming so that they can plan accordingly.

I like the whole business model of this company. Here is our website - here are the prices you buy from us. You can rent the stuff from pro supply shops and if they try and rip you off - let us know - we will fix it. Iy you are too mouch of a pain in the arse - we wont deal with you.

What is not to like?
Title: Rhe RED Med format
Post by: thsinar on November 14, 2008, 02:15:26 am
FYI:

- arTec announced as new product end of June '08, announced to be shipped in October '08 ---> is available and shipped in October '08

- Sinar Hy6 65 & Sinarback eSprit 65 announced as new product end of August '08, announced to be shipping at Photokina ---> is shipping by November 30th

1 Month delay for the Hy6 65 and the Sinarback eSprit 65: is this a "Wimpy Hamburger Promise"?

 

Best regards,
Thierry

Quote from: gwhitf
Or, maybe it's just karma coming back at ... Sinar. They are the kings of the Wimpy Hamburger Promise, announcing things months and months in advance, except this time, with Red, it came back and bit them in the ass.

My prediction: Look for very appealing deals come February or March.
Title: Rhe RED Med format
Post by: Dan Wells on November 14, 2008, 02:30:48 am
I wonder how appealing it will be to primarily still photographers? If you shoot a lot of video or movie film, it will be VERY appealing! Other than that 617 sensor, all the other models are movie cameras that happen to shoot stills as well (and do a good job of it). Once you add an (electronic) viewfinder, battery grip, etc... , the 645 model will be $10,000 more than an H3D/60 or P65+ is today (not to mention that those cameras will decline in price over the next two years). It's also quite a bit heavier than a Phamiya, a Sinar or a Hassy- they're quoting 4 lbs (roughly the weight of most MF systems, including body, 80 mm lens and back) without lens, finder,  battery, storage module or handle. The FF35 model is, similarly, twice as expensive and somewhat heavier than pro DSLRs , while still being an EVF only camera.  There are clearly pretty significant cost, weight and functionality (EVF) tradeoffs as a still camera for the video functionality - worth it? I'm not sure for my uses - it certainly has me thinking which way to go...

                                             -Dan
Title: Rhe RED Med format
Post by: Carsten W on November 14, 2008, 02:52:33 am
Quote from: thsinar
FYI:

- arTec announced as new product end of June '08, announced to be shipped in October '08 ---> is available and shipped in October '08

- Sinar Hy6 65 & Sinarback eSprit 65 announced as new product end of August '08, announced to be shipping at Photokina ---> is shipping by November 30th

1 Month delay for the Hy6 65 and the Sinarback eSprit 65: is this a "Wimpy Hamburger Promise"?

 

Best regards,
Thierry

To be fair, some updates to eXposure have been promised for a long time, right?
Title: Rhe RED Med format
Post by: thsinar on November 14, 2008, 03:21:33 am
Yes, absolutely right Carsten, for Photokina as well, and now it looks to become end of November.

Best regards.
Thierry

Quote from: carstenw
To be fair, some updates to eXposure have been promised for a long time, right?
Title: Rhe RED Med format
Post by: markowich on November 14, 2008, 04:40:05 am
dear graeme,
would you be kind enough to comment (for us still photographers) about autofocus on the REDs? i read somewhere that it only works in still mode, with RED
lenses. is this correct? if so, how many autofocus sensors are there? also, how about the light metering? none/center weighted/ spot ...?
thanks in advance, peter


Quote from: Graeme Nattress
Working hard as we speak.....

Doing full sensor at a movie fps for maybe over an hour or two of recording is a non-trivial task. It's also completely different to recording a short burst of stills. For motion, timing has to be precise over that length of record, you  can't wait a fraction here or there while a buffer empties or a card rights. It's either real-time or it's not. There's no in between.

The other factor is the sensor skew that especially Nikon shows. Canon has it to an extent. RED uses a CMOS rolling shutter also, but it's much less still again on the skew. Currently the Nikon D90's is practically unusable (in my biassed opinion) and shows severe scaling artifacts taking the full sensor image down to 720p to add insult to injury. This is the difference in a sensor designed primarily for stills with a physical shutter, compared to a camera designed for motion use.

To keep the data rates manageable, we use the REDCODE RAW compression,  which keeps the sensor data raw for post flexibility, but uses wavelet based lossy, but visually lossless compression. That is how we can write the current 4k files at up to 30fps onto a fast compact flash card (until it's full) or onto a small RAID drive or RAM pack for a longer time.

I hope that explains some of the complexities....

Graeme
Title: Rhe RED Med format
Post by: markowich on November 14, 2008, 04:55:01 am
uuuuppps, i forgot: how about high iso performance?
peter


Quote from: markowich
dear graeme,
would you be kind enough to comment (for us still photographers) about autofocus on the REDs? i read somewhere that it only works in still mode, with RED
lenses. is this correct? if so, how many autofocus sensors are there? also, how about the light metering? none/center weighted/ spot ...?
thanks in advance, peter
Title: Rhe RED Med format
Post by: Snook on November 14, 2008, 06:19:02 am
Quote from: thsinar
FYI:

- arTec announced as new product end of June '08, announced to be shipped in October '08 ---> is available and shipped in October '08

- Sinar Hy6 65 & Sinarback eSprit 65 announced as new product end of August '08, announced to be shipping at Photokina ---> is shipping by November 30th

1 Month delay for the Hy6 65 and the Sinarback eSprit 65: is this a "Wimpy Hamburger Promise"?

 

Best regards,
Thierry


There is thesinar Plugging his product again....
This is a RED Post.. stop plugging your product in every thread... And always and only complementing the photographers with SInar products..:+}
Snook
Title: Rhe RED Med format
Post by: Graham Mitchell on November 14, 2008, 06:38:36 am
Quote from: Snook
There is thesinar Plugging his product again....

Thierry was answering to a comment posted by another about Sinar. If you bothered to look properly you would see that.

Quote from: Snook
And always and only complementing the photographers with SInar products..:+}
Snook

Just look at the 'recent works' thread to see how untrue that is.

Your post seems to be nothing more than an unsubstantiated personal attack on another LL member. But then we all know that's your style...
Title: Rhe RED Med format
Post by: thsinar on November 14, 2008, 06:42:45 am
Dear Snook,

Please take note of following:

1. I HAD complimented your recent images: do you have a Sinar product? Follow precisely and check your claims before making any about me!

2. I only then intervene when the name Sinar is mentioned: in this case it has been mentioned by "gwithft".

Quote:

"Or, maybe it's just karma coming back at Phase and Sinar. They are the kings of the Wimpy Hamburger Promise, announcing things months and months in advance, except this time, with Red, it came back and bit them in the ass".

It is my absolute right to answer, and I won't ask for your permission.

3. May I ask you to be polite: you won't impress me with your rudeness and achieve nothing this way.

best regards,
Thierry

Quote from: Snook
There is thesinar Plugging his product again....
This is a RED Post.. stop plugging your product in every thread... And always and only complementing the photographers with SInar products..:+}
Snook
Title: Rhe RED Med format
Post by: stewarthemley on November 14, 2008, 08:19:18 am
Thierry, I admire your firm but fair and polite handling of such rudeness.

Snook, do you have to be so aggressive so often? It's fine to question but it can be done in a pleasant way and usually gets better results.
Title: Rhe RED Med format
Post by: Graeme Nattress on November 14, 2008, 08:27:53 am
I don't know the specific details to tell you. As you can imagine this is a fairly large project, with a lot of people working on it. I look at compression and image processing algorithms, and really, I've not had much time to study what is going on elsewhere in the system. Released details have primarily been about the concept as a whole, and the sensors to be used. I'd fully expect a more detailed specification will become available, especially those elements that are more digital photographic than digital cinema oriented.

Graeme
Title: Rhe RED Med format
Post by: jeff Liao on November 14, 2008, 08:34:43 am
Quote from: Tim Lüdin
I use a RED since January. In fact my partner and I have two now.
Ever  since I was very impressed by its still frame quality.
2 weeks ago, we shot a big comercial for a telecom company here in switzerland.
The ad-agency also booked a still photographer for the prinst stuff. He used his hassy 39mp.
During the shooting the customer checked my laptop with the RED files. I was constantly rendering some still frames and quicktimes
to give the agency some stuff to feel good about.
The agency and the customer coundn't believe what they saw. Even the still photographer (I'm one too) was totaly blown away by
the RED stills.
During lunch break the whole set was discussing the future of still and motion photography.
I told them that the epic will come out next year and about the rumors etc.
From then on the still photographer was joking about learning the motion camera work or he might be out of work...

Dont start to pick my writing apart. All I want to say is "the change is here". Like I said it months before. Faster than we all thougt.
By the way, the ad-angency was Jung von Matt. The best agency in the german speaking part of Europe.
The photographer was one of the best in Switzerland.
So this shows that also these big pros can see it coming and they like the idea of shooting high-end (midformat) and high-end motion with just one cam. Not ideal for everyone, but great for the ad shooters.

And dont question RED to much. They will deliver. They did before.
Jim, Graeme Nattress (is posting here) and the team will pull it off again.
They have the best customer service I know to date. They respond quickly as hell. Now think Hassy, Phase etc....

Interesting times, crazy times.

Tim

Dear Tim,

Do you mean Red still file is better than Hassy 39mp file?

thanks

Jeff
Title: Rhe RED Med format
Post by: Tim Lüdin on November 14, 2008, 09:06:34 am
Quote from: jeff Liao
Dear Tim,

Do you mean Red still file is better than Hassy 39mp file?

thanks

Jeff


Hi Jeff

No not exactly. The Hassy File has a bit mor DR and has a bigger resolution, but the RED File looked as good as the Hassy stuff on
the laptops on set. You can use a RED still up to A3 maybe A2.
So this made everyone chatter about what could be happening in the near future. As we know now, RED pulled the rabbit out of the hat allready.
Exactly as many were discussing on the set a few weeks ago.
As one of the early RED users and beeing a pro photographer I can only say, that the RED programm is killer in every way.
The RED one is cool but the new stuff will realy change the industry for good.
Just stay open minded and let it coming. Like Obama, the change is here.

Tim

Title: Rhe RED Med format
Post by: paulmoorestudio on November 14, 2008, 09:32:06 am
Quote from: Tim
Hi Jeff

No not exactly. The Hassy File has a bit mor DR and has a bigger resolution, but the RED File looked as good as the Hassy stuff on
the laptops on set. You can use a RED still up to A3 maybe A2.
So this made everyone chatter about what could be happening in the near future. As we know now, RED pulled the rabbit out of the hat allready.
Exactly as many were discussing on the set a few weeks ago.
As one of the early RED users and beeing a pro photographer I can only say, that the RED programm is killer in every way.
The RED one is cool but the new stuff will realy change the industry for good.
Just stay open minded and let it coming. Like Obama, the change is here.

Tim


I think we know more about the red and what red one can do than we do on the president elect - I am hoping not a red.
challenging and dynamic times for all  - life does not exist in a vacuum.
Title: Rhe RED Med format
Post by: hankg on November 14, 2008, 10:17:38 am
Quote from: paulmoorestudio
I think we know more about the red and what red one can do than we do on the president elect - I am hoping not a red.

You must have been in a coma for the last two years.

As to the RED it will initially only be cost competitive for those that require video. However more and more photographers are having to consider video as part of the imaging equation. RED is making great strides towards a digital capture device not hobbled by any legacy film architecture. Very exciting stuff.
Title: Rhe RED Med format
Post by: E_Edwards on November 14, 2008, 10:27:27 am
When you talk to the gurus, they tell you advertising revenue will come from the internet, or cell phones hooked to the internet, etc. That print advertising is dying off.

There is no point in having hi resolution video if you can't use it to make good money. The Internet may be able to support the bandwidth that is required for smallish size video presentations, and that's here already, but as soon as you go bigger and complex, you encounter many problems that make me a little apprehensive. At least for now.

I noticed that many of the luxury goods sites that first embraced the video/flash technology and had the budget for it, have somehow gone back to more conventional stills, maybe with a little Flash thrown in, but keeping the video clips as something you can view as secondary links.

These are some of the possible problems that come to mind:

-Preloading. No-one has the patience for preloading  high quality, (and bigger size) video. Not commercially at least. You need instant hi quality play. Streaming is better but the resolution/size/compression suffer, cross fades or movement look patchy, compression is noticeable.

-Quite apart from bandwidth matters, your average computer can't handle video over the Internet or even locally too well. There are too many stalls and jerkiness and video cards can't cope too well. Commercially, a couple of little stalls and you've lost your viewer and possible client, it irritates so much.

People are already reluctant to change computers, they think that what they have is good enough, there is little appetite to upgrade.

-Cost of production. The average still picture is relatively cheap. However, video requires far more knowledge, equipment, post production, etc. things that cost quite a lot of money. For it to succeed and become the norm, it needs to be reasonably affordable to the advertisers and cheap to produce. The camera is probably the least expensive item. I'm thinking of the time it takes to film various scenes or takes, then the blending, special effects in post production and so on.

-Cell phones. Everybody is predicting a massive growth in advertising using these. And apparently in Japan, it's going very well. But I just can't see the thrill of looking at websites with movies on a tiny little screen. It's just not fun, novelty value perhaps, like with the iphone, soon you get bored, unless you are in your teens or completely brainwashed.

Before long, every single camera will be equipped with reasonable quality video, I wonder if people will become immune and start to think that it's all so easy, why pay so much when my liltle nephew can do just as well with his cam.

Anyway, this is just lose thoughts, open to everything, I want good evidence to be convinced that it will all take off.

As for the Red, I like the idea of innovation, modularity, quality and reasonable prices, my first impression though, is that it looks a bit bulky.

Edward
Title: Rhe RED Med format
Post by: hankg on November 14, 2008, 10:41:41 am
Quote from: E_Edwards
When you talk to the gurus, they tell you advertising revenue will come from the internet, or cell phones hooked to the internet, etc. That print advertising is dying off.


The current state of the economy is likely to put a brake on the rate of change. Retailers online and off will be cutting back and the rate at which consumers upgrade computers and bandwith providers upgrade infrastructure will temporarily slow down significantly.

I think the watch word for the near term is doing more with what you have and not incurring any debt so you can ride out whatever is coming down the pike. So I don't expect RED as innovative as it is will be having a near term impact on still photography. More companies are likely to be cutting back and looking for good enough cheaper solutions. Not a great environment for expensive cutting edge solutions.
Title: Rhe RED Med format
Post by: paulmoorestudio on November 14, 2008, 11:06:27 am
Quote from: hankg
You must have been in a coma for the last two years.

As to the RED it will initially only be cost competitive for those that require video. However more and more photographers are having to consider video as part of the imaging equation. RED is making great strides towards a digital capture device not hobbled by any legacy film architecture. Very exciting stuff.

 and you must have had your head in the clouds the last 2 years, come on, its time take the double fog filters off.

but I can agree with you on the red camera system, it is exciting
Title: Rhe RED Med format
Post by: hankg on November 14, 2008, 11:53:39 am
Quote from: paulmoorestudio
and you must have had your head in the clouds the last 2 years, come on, its time take the double fog filters off.

but I can agree with you on the red camera system, it is exciting


There are plenty of sites were you can discuss politics. This is a discussion about a video/still camera in a section about MF cameras on a PHOTO site. This is not the place to inject your political 'concerns' about our president elect or anything else concerning your or my political views.

It was a mistake to respond to your initial stupid cheap shot and I will pass on hijacking the thread by going any further with this.

Back on topic I'm glad to see a truly innovative company in this space.
Title: Rhe RED Med format
Post by: mtomalty on November 14, 2008, 12:42:15 pm
Quote
The Hassy File has a bit mor DR and has a bigger resolution, but the RED File looked as good as the Hassy stuff on
the laptops on set. You can use a RED still up to A3 maybe A2.

Tim,

Could a RED still file be used,without significant massaging, in a typical full or single page
magazine ad?

What are the dimensions of a RED file after Raw conversion?


Mark
Title: Rhe RED Med format
Post by: rainer_v on November 14, 2008, 02:23:33 pm
i think red is showing in many ways good ideas and future pointing strategies. it looks to mee as some markets ( fashion ) could become hard markets in the near future for the mf companies.
getting more and more pressure from the lo-end ( canon sony and so on ) and starting to become pressure from the hi-end the remaining market space will decrease even more than it already did.
although it doesnt look as the  new red offers will be "the" mf killer, but maybe they are on the way to become it soon time later in the overnext generation.
the system together with the clear product and selling politics looks by far more modern and logic than most mf offers.
at the same time a good ( and last ? ) chance to learn the lesson for the existing "established" companies, maybe they realise whats going on, maybe not.
in any case i am not sure if its so clever to publish the road map two years in advantage, although the red guys seem to do a great job they will not have such different problems than all the software/ computer industry suffers from ... this means at first promises, than delay, finally less than promised features, than bugs.
i dont believe in any promises from any manufactor till i havent finished my first production with the promised tool.
Title: Rhe RED Med format
Post by: Graeme Nattress on November 14, 2008, 03:00:47 pm
I think the key thing to look at where RED is going is that stills and video quality are the same, that you can get movies that look as good as a bunch of stills stringed together, and that megapixels per second matters - so high resolutions at high fps. To me, that opens up a vast array of possibilities.

Graeme
Title: Rhe RED Med format
Post by: bcooter on November 14, 2008, 03:39:55 pm
Quote from: rainer_v
i think red is showing in many ways good ideas and future pointing strategies. it looks to mee as some markets ( fashion ) could become hard markets in the near future for the mf companies.
getting more and more pressure from the lo-end ( canon sony and so on ) and starting to become pressure from the hi-end the remaining market space will decrease even more than it already did.
although it doesnt look as the  new red offers will be "the" mf killer, but maybe they are on the way to become it soon time later in the overnext generation.
the system together with the clear product and selling politics looks by far more modern and logic than most mf offers.
at the same time a good ( and last ? ) chance to learn the lesson for the existing "established" companies, maybe they realise whats going on, maybe not.
in any case i am not sure if its so clever to publish the road map two years in advantage, although the red guys seem to do a great job they will not have such different problems than all the software/ computer industry suffers from ... this means at first promises, than delay, finally less than promised features, than bugs.
i dont believe in any promises from any manufactor till i havent finished my first production with the promised tool.


about 9 years ago we use to cast all our talent on video.  on one project, working with the principle of california's largest design and marketing studio, he ran through the video casting and from time to time would freeze frame and say how great it would be if still photography could be continuous and during selection we could freeze the frame for that one perfect moment.

at the time I almost felt insulted and replied it takes a special talent to direct, anticipate and freeze that one special moment, but deep in the back of my mind, I really did agree with him.

obviously at that time the technology didn't permit this, but now we are close to a solution that does.

ok, before the purists start the scream that  anybody can point a camera and sprayand pray or who wants to shoot continuous stills, be honest with yourself.   go back to some of your own work and look through the edits and remember how many of those special moments you missed waiting for the film to cycle into the next frame or waiting for a buffer to clear.

now, will the RED be a mf killer?   who knows until you use it in a real nail biting production, but is the concept sound, god I think the concept is pure genuis.  

I love the fact of a digital camera, still or moving that gets totally away from the legacy of old form and function, reworked, repurposed film to digital cameras.

I love the idea of shooting 12 second bursts of two people interacting, or even a portait where the slightest smile, or move of an eye can make the difference of a decent photograph to a great photograph.

I love the idea of buying direct, talking to the actual developers, having a modular system that doesn't require you to toss everything just to move into a different format or style of work.

I also love the thought of a highly detailed elv that lets you see accurate focus and depth of field.   ever use a canon 85 1.2 wide open.   in the optical viewfinder it looks like you pull focus from nose to down the street but in reality the capture file shows very little dof.  ever gone through your still digital files shooting close to wide open and on those shots you were positive were eyelash tight in focus, for some reason weren't?

hopefully the RED will be the solution to this.

REd is a wakeup call to not only manufacturers of digital cameras and backs but to also image makers.   it's time to drop the past and step into the future and if the RED lives only to 2/3's of their promise, then it will be revolutionary.

the purists will yell, the brand loyalists will diss it, the camera makers semi sponsered still photographers will look for every tiny excuse as to why nothing about the RED is of value, but talk to someone who has already purcahsed a RED system and ask them their take on the RED products and you will hear very little negative, a whole lot of positive and they know that their investment is taking their art and their commerce to a higher level.

would I buy a new medium format back today.  no, simply because nothing that has been announced offers me a promise or even a slight suggestion to really change the way I work.

would I buy the new RED?  if it lives to it's promises yes I would.

yes, we are in a worldwide recession and yes, the thought of changing the way we work, including our post workflow is daunting, but if in the end it offers me and my client more then the RED cannot be ignored.

Title: Rhe RED Med format
Post by: E_Edwards on November 14, 2008, 03:53:46 pm
I realise that this is perhaps a subject for another thread, but I just want to be enthusiastic about Red or similar technologies and I want to hear from people with a vision, not a long term futuristic vision, but a vision that takes place now, at our present moment.

So imagine, just imagine that this new monstrous Red project is out today, lucky me, I've got one, the full works. But I am a still life photographer, not a video man. What could I do with it?

Lets's see...I could learn to shoot moving still-lifes, mini product commercials and the like. I'm already doing this to some extent anyway. It would be great fun to learn and become competitive. Who would buy the outcome? Currently a few of my clients could be tempted to have some motion with their products on the Internet. Not much money in that, considering the time it takes to do it properly, and look at the premiun car manufacturers with plenty of budgets to burn and you see the limitations, currently thwarted by retrograde bandwidth, the need for faster computer video cards that are not installed in the majority of people's machines or the undiscovered magic compression that suddenly makes things fly at top full screen quality.

In fact, I've already been asked, clients are interested to some extent in moving images, creations using maybe a combination of video, cgi and flash. though the budgets are pathetic, they have no idea, they think it's like videoing a wedding (with respect to wedding videographers). Internet equals cheap; we've given it away. Also some shops are beginning to have point of sale LCD screens, like you see at some airports. But I can't possibly compete against a proper commercial video production company, unless I became one. This is big bucks territory and therefore more niche, for which there are plenty of companies already competing to supply this service.

I can see it being great for moving subjects such as fashion, portraiture, sports and the like, though all these fields are mega-saturated beyond belief already. Plenty of fashion photographers struggling to pay the rent, let alone buy an expensive camera!

Not trying to be pessimistic, as I would love to have a Red camera too and I would surely find some good use for it, but more and more I am coming to the realisation that we already have fantastic quality (certainly in the still life environment) and that we are dedicating far too many hours to pursue and ask for little improvements that, quite frankly, are not that important once we learn to live without them.

Please feel free to disagree.

Edward
Title: Rhe RED Med format
Post by: Tim Lüdin on November 14, 2008, 04:01:55 pm
Quote from: mtomalty
Tim,

Could a RED still file be used,without significant massaging, in a typical full or single page
magazine ad?

What are the dimensions of a RED file after Raw conversion?


Mark

Hi Mark

The Resolution is 2520 x 2304. You are shooting RAW.
Just do your usual post work and you are done.
This frame will give you a good A3 Page. We have done the test. The print looked realy good.
Imagin there will be an epic 24MP and an epic 65MP cam.
On the 65MP epic you will be able to use your midformat lenses and also shoot motion pictures.
As a cinematographer and photographer this is like the paradise for me.
Great concept.
Now Graeme has to tweek the codec a bit and we are there.

Tim

Title: Rhe RED Med format
Post by: gwhitf on November 14, 2008, 04:15:32 pm
I still never got an answer about using strobe vs. HMI. I read something that suggested HMI or Tungsten only, and when I hear HMI, I see dollar signs, and weight, and cables, and the inability to fly with my own stuff, (unless it's Joker 400 or something small). I also wonder how much HMI it would really take to shoot outside in the sunlight, or to add fill thru a silk. My gut feeling tells me it would take a LOT. Thousands of dollars per day in rentals, and a slow moving crew, with big-ass stands.

Maybe this Red really will be The Next Big Thing, but all I hear is a lot of hype and not a lot of details, and I read "Winter 2009", (if that). A lot of things can change by the winter of 2009, in the economy, and in Canon/Nikon world. I'm not a Renter; I want to own my own gear, and the thought of main, and a backup Red, is just not in the cards for me.

But I absolutely *do* applaud them for getting outside the box. Here we are, dicking around with Mamiya 645s that look like AMC Gremlins, right outta 1965, or the Contax that's solid, but still, it's very very dated. And Yair comes on here, bragging about the Red guy owning a Leaf and RZ, and when I read that, I think, "Hell, right there's the reason that he designed this new camera -- the Red guy looked down, and said, "This is the most dumbass solution I've ever seen -- you've got a great 6x7 camera, but a back on it that's not even using half of what the RZ is capable of. There's got to be a better way".

Even Canon, how much has it really changed in basic approach since the EOS 1 film camera? So when Red comes in here with the Ahhhnold RoboCam, looking all bad-ass and futuristic, I'm sure that will send some Canon designers into emergency meetings. That can ONLY be good for commercial photographers, in the end.

But for me, I'm sick of AnnouncaKina, and now, the "Winter of 2009" business approach. Because, in the real world, you never buy version 1.0 of anything, so that means Winter of 2010, and at that point, I just hit the Close button and get back to my life.
Title: Rhe RED Med format
Post by: rainer_v on November 14, 2008, 06:06:28 pm
Quote from: E_Edwards
So imagine, just imagine that this new monstrous Red project is out today, lucky me, I've got one, the full works. But I am a still life photographer, not a video man. What could I do with it?

Not trying to be pessimistic, as I would love to have a Red camera too and I would surely find some good use for it, but more and more I am coming to the realisation that we already have fantastic quality (certainly in the still life environment) and that we are dedicating far too many hours to pursue and ask for little improvements that, quite frankly, are not that important once we learn to live without them.

Please feel free to disagree.

Edward

i am a "still" liver too with my kind of subjects and i cant see how to use motion pictures for my way of making images.  but first time in my life i start to think in an opened way about motion pictures and its possibilities. although it wasnt the red which awaked this thoughts in me, it was the canon 5dmk2. doesnt matter.   where will be the mf manufactors in 2 years and how they will and can answer this "attacks" from two sides ?.
the red seems to come from the motion-picture front and the canon from the stand-picture-front both merging functions of two very seperated markets which seems to join soon.
i am not so enthusiastic about technical progression as others here but for sure it  looks very interesting how the things will go on.
Title: Rhe RED Med format
Post by: pss on November 14, 2008, 06:25:00 pm
ok now that the dust has settled we can actually look at the facts:
RIGHT NOW we can have a base red one camera with a 13x24 12bit sensor for 17000$(which can easily double with some essentials)....that might be cheap for movie people but does not compete with any existing DSLR for stills....this cash can be applied to future upgrades...
in about 3 weeks we will have a 5dmkII available for 2500$ which blows the red one out of the water for stills and delivers frighteningly nice video for an as of now unheard price (even compared to the red one) at much cleaner, higher iso.....

this is very important because cleaner, higher iso means less, cheaper and easier production....still delivering quality that is good enough for web, lcd display or even probably HD TV use....

all other announcements from red are nothing short of amazing....so is the leica S2 in my book....for totally different and personal reasons....

we have promises up to 2010 with the announcement that the only constant is change to these announcements....so we really don't know what might come, but it might be even better....

we have NO CLUE about high iso performance of any of these....

workflow? well i guess it is great to just work this like a movie camera......has anyone seen a movie set lately? it is great and very promising that stills can be used from video for print....but who will pay for the production? i don't see anyone using this thing with just one or two assistants! i don't really want to edit raw video footage for still shots.....

i mean maybe this is the future....it probably is.....but i am not sure where this leaves photographers.....i am not a huge bresson fan but there is something to be said about the decisive moment.....and knowing how to anticipate and capture it.....

but the philosophic ramblings are pointless anyway....lets look into the cristal ball....canon does not build cameras and push them out the door hot from the assembly line....they are working on the 2012 models right now and i am pretty sure they have the 2010 model almost ready (the final tweaking always takes the longest anyway...) and they are just waiting to put something out when they have to....at a price that makes them competitive enough......

will the next canon flagship have a larger sensor, will it shoot at 16bit up to 25000iso, will it shoot larger than HD video, will it be just barely cheaper then the competition or definitely priced competitively? probably yes on all.....

as far as this section of the forum still running under MF....i guess we might as well keep it at that.....and use it for what it is (like michael said) the pro section.....because  the way i see it.....MF the way we know it as a marginal niche market just got considerably smaller yet again....i can make predictions for canon and nikon (and the others), red makes their own predictions for their stuff.....i just don't see how the others can compete....

for me the only way i would buy a DMF system again, it would have to be priced competitively compared to canon/nikon....the only advantage would be very slight advantage in file quality which will even out all its shortcomings...in short if it was the same price as a dsIII, it would be a nice backup/alternative......

if i was longing to go into the wilderness on my mule and shoot the beauty that a sunrise brings that huge red would be the perfect companion for that kind of thing.....i don't have a mule yet and my subjects are still alive and move faster and less predictable then any MF system i have ever shot with can handle.....and i don't shoot video yet....so for now the dsIII is godsent....the 5dII will be the cheapest backup i have ever owned (without worrying about a lesser file)....and hell maybe i will get into video after all with the help of this rig (http://www.redrockmicro.com/redrock_dslr.html)
Title: Rhe RED Med format
Post by: EgillBjarki on November 14, 2008, 08:11:50 pm
I celebrate more competition on the marked and camera makers who are speeding up the development like Red will probably be doing.

I think very little has changed since the Canon 1Ds came along other than the luxury of higher ISO and more resolution to crop from. When do we really use all these MP? Do people really notice it in magazines and on billboards?

The most important thing (to me at least) is to have a reliable camera that you trust and can use without having to concentrate to much on they way you make the image rather the image it self. I think this all comes down to work flow, if you feel more confident selecting a still from a video you made with a RED system, or from a contact sheet from your 35mm DSLR camera, then RED will be the way to go for you. But can you afford it or more importantly is your client base willing to pay for your new expensive workflow compared to the old one? It just comes down to one thing, as photographers its the image used in the end.

It will be much more expensive to produce photographs with RED compared to traditional cameras, think of the more computer power, storage and lighting you'll need on a photo shoot using RED. Everything has its up sides and down sides, I just cant see how this would benefit most photographers, this how ever will merge film makers and photographers into one.
Title: Rhe RED Med format
Post by: TMARK on November 14, 2008, 10:36:23 pm
As a stills guy who now does video primarily, and who works with a Red One, I'd like to say a few things.  I see people concerned with the portability of the Epic.  A Leica M its not, but I've shot the Red One on the M23 and B61 buses in New York and Brooklyn without attracting much attention, after stripping away most of the non-essential accessories.  The Epic appears to be smaller than the Red One. Not that I would use an Epic as an ENG camera or like a Leica M, but I bet it can be done.  

Low light performance of the Red One after Build 16 is very, very good.

I think the Epic is a threat to beauty and fashion photographers.  With an Epic, someone, such as my production company, can offer Revlon an HD commercial and also do the beauty shoot for in store and POS display, same shoot, same look, same camera, same day.  The client saves money, I make more money.  In that way I've just taken food out of the mouth of some poor sap who refused to see the change wrought by Red, who is dutifully polishing his Rollei and Sinarback and quoting Nietzche, wondering why the phone hasn't rung in a while.

What I find so impressive about Red is that when they have a weakness or a problem they admit it and tell you how they are working on the issue.  No cloak and dagger Rumsfeldian double talk.

I'm not wild about shooting video, but I like sending my kid to private school and stuffing my mattress with cash.  I also like the different expectations the client's have:  they are used to paying more for all stages of production.  

That being said, the Red cams won't totally replace a 1ds type camera or a Leica M.
Title: Rhe RED Med format
Post by: AndreNapier on November 15, 2008, 12:42:45 am
I am just wondering with continues burst of Red what do you guys plan to use for lighting . Obviously strobes are out. To lit a studio using HMI's with a plan burst of 50 shots a second you will really have to set a shutter to 1/1000 so at ISO 50 or 100 using softboxes you will need at least a couple 12K HMI to shoot at f11.  With Tungsten light multiply it times 3. Any small to medium size studio would feel like sauna in few minutes and your headache is more than guaranteed. Anybody who shot HMI's would know what I am talking about.
For those that never did just imagine that at ISO 100 using Elinchrom Octabank at full body distance 1200W HMI produces only enough light to set the aparture to f2.8-4.0  at 1/125.
Http://AndreNapier.com (http://Http://AndreNapier.com)
Title: Rhe RED Med format
Post by: TMARK on November 15, 2008, 01:20:59 am
Quote from: AndreNapier
I am just wondering with continues burst of Red what do you guys plan to use for lighting . Obviously strobes are out. To lit a studio using HMI's with a plan burst of 50 shots a second you will really have to set a shutter to 1/1000 so at ISO 50 or 100 using softboxes you will need at least a couple 12K HMI to shoot at f11.  With Tungsten light multiply it times 3. Any small to medium size studio would feel like sauna in few minutes and your headache is more than guaranteed. Anybody who shot HMI's would know what I am talking about.
For those that never did just imagine that at ISO 100 using Elinchrom Octabank at full body distance 1200W HMI produces only enough light to set the aparture to f2.8-4.0  at 1/125.
Http://AndreNapier.com (http://Http://AndreNapier.com)

Andre,

I suppose you would light it and shoot it as if for motion, like a commercial.   DV cams don't think in terms of ISO, its in terms of gain.  When we shoot with teh Red we light with HMI's, a couple of 1200's, not 12k, 4' 4 bank Kinos, 125 HMI pocket pars from ARRI, 300, 650, 1k, 2k and 4k tungsten, if we need the power.  Its no different than lighting for a music video.

We'll have to see, of course, when one of these things is out.  I would hope it could be shot like a film camera and synched to fire strobes.
Title: Rhe RED Med format
Post by: AndreNapier on November 15, 2008, 02:35:01 am
TMARK,
I admit, I have no idea about current video equipment. In my college years I work on the lighting crew of one of Europe best, Oscar winning director where I learned to understand the complexity of light for motion picture and still images. Of course this is 35mm film era and we needed tons of equipment for every cut. Now when it comes to video equipment I would believe that it is still a relation of sensor size and sensitivity. For RED DMF camera to be be competitive to current top DB it has to have similar sensor to produce comparable quality images. Its sensitivity can be measured with gain or ISO but if it is a CCD it would call for tons of light. I shoot with HMI's almost everyday and have in studio Arri's,  K5600 Jokers and Dedo's as well as Kino's and unless there is a huge brake through  from sensors producers in the near future that would allowed usable  ISO up to 3200 on DB I can not see any MF shooter needing much more continuing burst than we already have. When I use strobes I Ping-Pong my packs and still can not recycle fast enough for A75S.  Additionally I have to admit that coming from 8x10 and 12x15 film any camera that shoots faster than my eyes can compose an image is just counter productive for me. Time to time I pull my Nikon D3 and play with the continues burst but with 1000's of images from a session I still can not find keepers the same way as with my Rz pressed at the decisive moment.
Of course different photogs have different styles and I admit that when  I was growing up there was no video games and I can only admire my children in front of the magic stick.
http://AndreNapier.com (http://AndreNapier.com)
Title: Rhe RED Med format
Post by: Dustbak on November 15, 2008, 03:04:58 am
Quote from: E_Edwards
I realise that this is perhaps a subject for another thread, but I just want to be enthusiastic about Red or similar technologies and I want to hear from people with a vision, not a long term futuristic vision, but a vision that takes place now, at our present moment.

So imagine, just imagine that this new monstrous Red project is out today, lucky me, I've got one, the full works. But I am a still life photographer, not a video man. What could I do with it?

Lets's see...I could learn to shoot moving still-lifes, mini product commercials and the like. I'm already doing this to some extent anyway. It would be great fun to learn and become competitive. Who would buy the outcome? Currently a few of my clients could be tempted to have some motion with their products on the Internet. Not much money in that, considering the time it takes to do it properly, and look at the premiun car manufacturers with plenty of budgets to burn and you see the limitations, currently thwarted by retrograde bandwidth, the need for faster computer video cards that are not installed in the majority of people's machines or the undiscovered magic compression that suddenly makes things fly at top full screen quality.

In fact, I've already been asked, clients are interested to some extent in moving images, creations using maybe a combination of video, cgi and flash. though the budgets are pathetic, they have no idea, they think it's like videoing a wedding (with respect to wedding videographers). Internet equals cheap; we've given it away. Also some shops are beginning to have point of sale LCD screens, like you see at some airports. But I can't possibly compete against a proper commercial video production company, unless I became one. This is big bucks territory and therefore more niche, for which there are plenty of companies already competing to supply this service.

I can see it being great for moving subjects such as fashion, portraiture, sports and the like, though all these fields are mega-saturated beyond belief already. Plenty of fashion photographers struggling to pay the rent, let alone buy an expensive camera!

Not trying to be pessimistic, as I would love to have a Red camera too and I would surely find some good use for it, but more and more I am coming to the realisation that we already have fantastic quality (certainly in the still life environment) and that we are dedicating far too many hours to pursue and ask for little improvements that, quite frankly, are not that important once we learn to live without them.

Please feel free to disagree.

Edward

I think we are working kind of in the same pool. I am following this thread and the RED developments with great interest. I also agree with what many think, still from video will become an alternative.

For myself I am figuring out if I could use it in the current environment and you are right. Even the budgets for photography are often pathetic to the point I am almost timing my workspace so I can make sure to make a decent rate.

Would video make still-life, catalogue work, webshops, etc.. faster or easier?  doubt that. Would it make it cheaper? doubt that too.

Many of the other expertises, you are either a star making lots of money or you are strugling in the margin to make a living. Anyway, It is good to continue to think about what is going on and how it might be of benefit to you.

I currently am looking at CGI, Lighting recording & PS combinations which really looks like something that will have an impact on my type of photography.

Title: Rhe RED Med format
Post by: revaaron on November 15, 2008, 04:11:36 am
This is EXACTLY what I've wanted... but a little too late.
oh well.
Title: Rhe RED Med format
Post by: tom_l on November 15, 2008, 04:41:49 am
The RED will not kill MF,
but it will movie stills photography. (and Blimp bodies)
No more photographers to push around on movie set.


Tom
Title: Rhe RED Med format
Post by: jeff Liao on November 15, 2008, 04:45:48 am
Quote from: Tim Lüdin
Hi Jeff

No not exactly. The Hassy File has a bit mor DR and has a bigger resolution, but the RED File looked as good as the Hassy stuff on
the laptops on set. You can use a RED still up to A3 maybe A2.
So this made everyone chatter about what could be happening in the near future. As we know now, RED pulled the rabbit out of the hat allready.
Exactly as many were discussing on the set a few weeks ago.
As one of the early RED users and beeing a pro photographer I can only say, that the RED programm is killer in every way.
The RED one is cool but the new stuff will realy change the industry for good.
Just stay open minded and let it coming. Like Obama, the change is here.

Tim

Dear Tim,
I am pretty much very open minded...
on the other hand, I am thinking about Canon 5DII (and later model)
Not sure how 5DII's video file compare to RED.

But if Canon coming out with a camera has video file close to RED and only 1/10 price of Red.
Canon will kill all current video market..
Just my thought..
Title: Rhe RED Med format
Post by: GregW on November 15, 2008, 12:13:02 pm
Quote from: TMARK
No cloak and dagger Rumsfeldian double talk.

You may have hit the nail on the head, albeit inadvertently.

We use models based on the 'unknown, unknown' theory to test risk and analyze investment decisions. It's particularly useful when you only have current information to go on and, there is little or no information about the future.

In the words of the former US Defense Secretary.

'There are known knowns. These are things we know that we know. There are known unknowns. That is to say, there are things that we know we don't know. But there are also unknown unknowns. There are things we don't know we don't know.'

Applied - crudely - to RED's proposals you might draw the conclusion that there are more known unknowns at this point. Broaden it out to include: the impact of competition from traditional and new imaging companies; consumer device convergence; direct to consumer advertising; falling print media sales, there's more of course, but you get the idea.

Perhaps the biggest known unknown is the technology itself. Current digital imaging technology by any measure is mature. We get bigger, smaller, cheaper, more efficient, versions of the same thing. Exciting for many reasons but there is an end point. Will it take something like an organic sensor from IBM's research labs to effect a new paradigm?

As for the unknown, unknowns, they remain just that.

RED are offering something interesting and exciting. If there is a but, it's that we need to know more about the known unknowns; before a purchasing decision can be made.
Title: Rhe RED Med format
Post by: gwhitf on November 15, 2008, 02:00:32 pm
I think the bigger (and scarier) underlying question here is: Will all this newfound video capability actually affect the income of a traditional Still Photographer?

That's the one that's got me in a quandry. I feel like a radio station in the year 1949 or so, when the first BW televisions were announced. Or, I feel like Eastman Kodak when the Canon D30 was announced. Or, I feel like a manufacturer of Waxers and Illustration Board, when the Mac IIci came out.

Would it really affect my business if filmmakers had the capability to shoot high quality stills? If I'm an advertising photographer, and Ad Agency A is doing a campaign that involves both print, web, and TV, then would the agency just pulls the stills off the Red Camera from the film crew? They might. And that means less days on camera for high priced Talent, and Crew, and the like. Do you think that the Print Depts of these ad agencies will eventually become the Unloved Stepchild department, where all the Old Guy art directors are sent to Print (to retire and die), and they're just given some TIFF files off the Red and ordered to "make an ad out of this; this is all you've got to work from; there will be no original photography"?

Or does this mean that more Still Photographers will try to become DP's? I doubt it. It's just a whole other Skill Set to me.

Lots and lots of questions. And at a time when a lot of us have time on our hands to ponder them.

I think this Red thing will affect filmmakers more that it will affect Still Photographers. The Red is the 5D of the film world -- much cheaper than what they've been using, but damn near just as good. At least for many paying clients.

One question I have: How much longer will Print really hang on? Because for web or cell phone, the Canon is like shooting 8x10 film for a postage stamp size. Massive overkill. But for print, there's still something nice about knowing you've got all kinds of headroom in a P45 file. The 1ds3 is still a tad iffy, when there's a lot of retouch involved. If I was Phase and Hassie, I'd be praying for long lives for the magazine industry.

I look at so much of media on the web and TV now. Very rarely even see a magazine any more. I walked into a Borders Bookstore last week, and saw a shrink wrapped thick magazine, with lush CMYK printing and nice paper, and I thought to myself, "My God, that magazine should cost a hundred dollars to produce, (compared to Web)". I just don't have high hopes for magazines -- too much production and distribution costs, just to read about Britney or Nicole.

I just wonder if the Film industry is going through the same transformation as the Stills industry? Do you think that, right now, on some LL Hollywood version of this type forum, there are a bunch of DP's wondering if Still Photographers are going to steal their business, once the 5DII and this Red thing hit the streets? (I don't. I think the DP film guys are more in the driver's seat than the Stills guys).
Title: Rhe RED Med format
Post by: bcooter on November 15, 2008, 02:56:04 pm
Quote from: gwhitf
I think the bigger (and scarier) underlying question here is: Will all this newfound video capability actually affect the income of a traditional Still Photographer?

That's the one that's got me in a quandry. I feel like a radio station in the year 1949 or so, when the first BW televisions were announced. Or, I feel like Eastman Kodak when the Canon D30 was announced. Or, I feel like a manufacturer of Waxers and Illustration Board, when the Mac IIci came out.

Would it really affect my business if filmmakers had the capability to shoot high quality stills? If I'm an advertising photographer, and Ad Agency A is doing a campaign that involves both print, web, and TV, then would the agency just pulls the stills off the Red Camera from the film crew? They might. And that means less days on camera for high priced Talent, and Crew, and the like. Do you think that the Print Depts of these ad agencies will eventually become the Unloved Stepchild department, where all the Old Guy art directors are sent to Print (to retire and die), and they're just given some TIFF files off the Red and ordered to "make an ad out of this; this is all you've got to work from; there will be no original photography"?

Or does this mean that more Still Photographers will try to become DP's? I doubt it. It's just a whole other Skill Set to me.

Lots and lots of questions. And at a time when a lot of us have time on our hands to ponder them.

I think this Red thing will affect filmmakers more that it will affect Still Photographers. The Red is the 5D of the film world -- much cheaper than what they've been using, but damn near just as good. At least for many paying clients.

One question I have: How much longer will Print really hang on? Because for web or cell phone, the Canon is like shooting 8x10 film for a postage stamp size. Massive overkill. But for print, there's still something nice about knowing you've got all kinds of headroom in a P45 file. The 1ds3 is still a tad iffy, when there's a lot of retouch involved. If I was Phase and Hassie, I'd be praying for long lives for the magazine industry.

I look at so much of media on the web and TV now. Very rarely even see a magazine any more. I walked into a Borders Bookstore last week, and saw a shrink wrapped thick magazine, with lush CMYK printing and nice paper, and I thought to myself, "My God, that magazine should cost a hundred dollars to produce, (compared to Web)". I just don't have high hopes for magazines -- too much production and distribution costs, just to read about Britney or Nicole.

I just wonder if the Film industry is going through the same transformation as the Stills industry? Do you think that, right now, on some LL Hollywood version of this type forum, there are a bunch of DP's wondering if Still Photographers are going to steal their business, once the 5DII and this Red thing hit the streets? (I don't. I think the DP film guys are more in the driver's seat than the Stills guys).


if you step back away from the emotion and look not at what you want as a photographer, but what clients want, then you get a better idea of where the Red may fit in.

take hotel and resort photography for instance.  a scene of a sexy woman clad in a bath robe in a spa walking through frame is not much different in execution and lighting whether it be a still  image or a piece of motion material.   will this be used for a national advertising campaign, print or broadcast, in resort photography maybe, but to take it another step forward and look at something like high end cosmetics or automobile photography the disciplines of working a still photograph compared to shooting a 30 second spot are much different in style, execution and budget.

right now, since the introduction is probably a year or two away, it doesn't really make that much difference, but if you do have time on your hands, it probably might be a good idea to pick up a 5dII and start learning how to shoot some kind of motion imagery.

personally, I think the real difference in advertising won't come from the capture device as much as how the intended viewer/cusotmer is presented images.  I believe the 30 second spot on a computer is way too long and I also think 20 still images put into a flash presentation is usually too predicable.  somewhere between the two is a happy medium and in the 4 second sound bite world we are now living in a 4 second motion vehicle makes sense to combine it into a still photography production.

past that, it will probably be the same as it has always been.  film directors will direct film, dp's will still shoot cinema cameras (though probably digital) and still photographers will continue to produce still imagery.

regardless of where this goes, on the high end the Red will probably not change any director, dp or commercial/editorial photographers business model, but on the medium to low priced section of both genres, it will probably make a big difference.

at least today.   in two years it might be very different.

edit:

the one thing that might change this is the current economy.  right now advertising agencies around the world are either in the process or have already started massive layoffs, mostly in their creative departments.  same with editorial.

what this means is agencies as well as magazines are going to look for new ways to lower their costs, maximize their production and get more bang for the buck.  

I think Red missed the mark by two years and in a strange way I think canon with their 5dII is in the right place at the right time.

right now I am finishing a large print campaign and today could have shot 5dII type of video to compliment the stills.  I didn't because time (not budget) didn't allow it, but in a few months I would bet that the ad agency would have loved to have medium to high quality motion content of what we have produced.  it would give them content to go back to the client and produce something, whether a broadcast piece or just a series of web spots and they get paid for that as well as they do the print campaign.

so whether your a director, dp or still photographer, the person that can offer both mediums during the same produciton will stand a much better chance of landing the project, especially as projects get fewer.

as in any business, the person or company that offers more will usually gain market share.  

Title: Rhe RED Med format
Post by: E_Edwards on November 15, 2008, 03:55:39 pm
With the advent of the 5DII, I think we will start seeing lots more little internet intros done on a budget, as photographers "have a go". You don't need much quality for the Internet, if anything the problem is how to reduce the enormous movie files to make them playable on everybody's machines instantly at a reasonable quality without stalling. And the creative advantages of the Canon sensor size, interchangeable lenses, manual focus, etc. are just what you need.


However, I think there is something calm and refreshing about a clean still image that makes you ponder. I don't like websites with too much movement. Even the sideways floating thumbnails that so many people use make me irritable. If every single image on a website was a moving little clip, we would switch off. So let's not overestimate the change just yet.

For instance, think of the 3D computer generated images or panos that you can turn to see every single angle, after a while, it becomes very tiresome, certainly for me, and I have a much greater threshold than most from the younger generation where things stop being "cool" pretty soon.

As those in the know have remarked, the procedure to create a single still advertising image is completely different from producing a video clip. I think by and large it will be kept separate. The moving image is very forgiving. Still images require perfection in one frame.  In most cases this kind of perfection is not obtained by "grabbing a frame"

I  don't think there's enough money there to justify the cost of a Red if the only purpose is to shoot for the Internet. But the Canon is a different proposition, it's only the start and prices will come down more and more, video will be standard spec and the pricier cameras like the Red will be used in commercial productions and movie making. Medium format backs, sadly I really don't see them surviving for long. Canon or Nikon just need to make one more little jump upwards and medium format will be instant history.

As for magazines disappearing, yes, the market will probably shrink, which judging by a lot of their content it may be a blessing in disguise! Fewer ads need fewer photographers. Only the ones with the best talent, connections and business acumen will survive. The rest will have a career change.

Edward
Title: Rhe RED Med format
Post by: DesW on November 15, 2008, 04:57:52 pm
Quote from: gwhitf
One question I have: How much longer will Print really hang on? Because for web or cell phone, the Canon is like shooting 8x10 film for a postage stamp size. Massive overkill. But for print, there's still something nice about knowing you've got all kinds of headroom in a P45 file. The 1ds3 is still a tad iffy, when there's a lot of retouch involved. If I was Phase and Hassie, I'd be praying for long lives for the magazine industry.
I look at so much of media on the web and TV now. Very rarely even see a magazine any more. I walked into a Borders Bookstore last week, and saw a shrink wrapped thick magazine, with lush CMYK printing and nice paper, and I thought to myself, "My God, that magazine should cost a hundred dollars to produce, (compared to Web)". I just don't have high hopes for magazines -- too much production and distribution costs, just to read about Britney or Nicole.
.

Hi, Yes in Australia the  largest publisher of magazines is already feeling the pinch

Des


ASX / MEDIA RELEASE
FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE
27 OCTOBER 2008
UPDATE ON PBL MEDIA
SYDNEY: Consolidated Media Holdings Limited (CMH) (ASX: CMJ) announces
today that, further to its ASX announcement of 23 October 2008, the CMH Board has
resolved that CMH does not intend to contribute any further funding to PBL Media.
Accordingly, any additional capital contribution to PBL Media by its major shareholder Red
Earth Holdings B.V. an entity owned by funds advised by CVC Asia Pacific and CVC Capital
Partners (CVC) will dilute CMH’s shareholding.
Mr James Packer and Mr John Alexander, and their alternates Mr Chris Anderson and Mr
Martin Dalgleish, have resigned today with immediate effect from the PBL Media group’s
boards – PBL Media Holdings Pty Limited, PBL Media Finance Holdings Pty Limited and
PBL Media Group Limited. CMH no longer has any board representatives on the boards of
the PBL Media group.
Change to accounting treatment of PBL Media
As CMH no longer has significant influence over its investment in PBL Media, the CMH
Board has resolved to change the manner in which it accounts for PBL Media.
CMH shall cease equity accounting for its 25 per cent ordinary shareholding in PBL Media.
Title: Rhe RED Med format
Post by: jjj on November 15, 2008, 08:37:33 pm
Quote from: gwhitf
Would it really affect my business if filmmakers had the capability to shoot high quality stills?
Remember film and the stills photographer also using 35mm film at same time? Though stills 35mm is slightly bigger BTW.
Quote
If I'm an advertising photographer, and Ad Agency A is doing a campaign that involves both print, web, and TV, then would the agency just pulls the stills off the Red Camera from the film crew? They might.
In order to save money in the wrong place yes, that will happen.


Quote from: E_Edwards
As those in the know have remarked, the procedure to create a single still advertising image is completely different from producing a video clip. I think by and large it will be kept separate. The moving image is very forgiving. Still images require perfection in one frame.  In most cases this kind of perfection is not obtained by "grabbing a frame"
And is why on film sets there is always a stills photographer to do the stills images for 3 reasons.
Firstly, better quality as a low shutter speed and movement does not make for sharp images. It may look OK whilst moving, but once frozen, not so hot. Using higher shutter speeds whilst filming won't help, as that doesn't look nice for moving imagery.
Secondly when I do film stills, I rearange the actors, set up shots that haven't even been filmed in order to tell the story of film or scene in a single frame. This allows better composition and also composition for inclusion of graphics. Plus a film is a series of edited together shots and so for stills you often need to conflate those elements in a way that makes sense as a single shot.
However for advertising, that is probably less relevent as graphics will often be part of shoot and individual shots in the normally short sequnce will tend to be more striking.
Finally vertical shots! Film's not so good there as eveyrthing is set up for horizontal shooting and cropping frame grabs makes for even poorer quality.
Title: Rhe RED Med format
Post by: billy on November 16, 2008, 01:01:39 am
check this use of the Red:

http://artandcommerceproduction.com/blog/ (http://artandcommerceproduction.com/blog/)
Title: Rhe RED Med format
Post by: PeterA on November 16, 2008, 02:14:13 am
Still shooters are going to be gone within 10 years if they are stars and much sooner if they are not. The 645 and 617 chips will prove the paradigm shift as the technology delivers mind blowing HD capability. Like traditional photography - without the burden of analogue design hassles ( mirrors etc)  - view camera movements are a mere lego step away with these new systems - every aspect of film and photography will be challenged and won over by this technology. I think working pros have about a year to get their act together - after which anyone not on top of the convergence technology will be struggling firstly from lacking the flexibility to deliver to clients what they want and secondly from being left behind in the creativity stakes.

Each year thousands of tech savy graduates are pumped out from film and photography schools - none of these people are burdened by the facts of history - all of them wish to use the best technology they can to find a voice and express themselves. Personally,  I am fortunate not having to 'earn' a living shooting and can just shoot for personal satisfaction and the occasional editorial type ad for the fun of it. If I had to earn a living as a photographer, I would already be skilling up or preparing to exit.

I am already saving for the 617 version of this tech - in landscape/street/environmental/wildlife/documentary shooting scenarios this tech will chew up and spit out any competition from day one.

The MFD back makers as of two weeks ago all have the clock ticking now. Of course people will scoff at these opinions - vested interests have an interest in putting down serious challengers. I am looking forward to following developments in this area over teh next 2 years - what fun!
Title: Rhe RED Med format
Post by: Dustbak on November 16, 2008, 02:52:33 am
In 1995 I worked for a company that specialized in digital transactional services (amongst others eCash, eg. digital money). At that stage being young and inexperienced we believed there would be no cash money anymore within 10 to 15 years (cash does cost around 1-2% GNP in most countries hence big financial incentives).

Now, I still am a firm believer that cash will disappear eventually but I found fundamental things like this take much longer to change than one that can see the future is willing to believe.

Since 1995 the world has seen many tech savvy ecomerce graduates but many I have met don't have a clue

Yes, there will be a convergence but a what pace? I don't know and I think nobody does. I am convinced it will take longer than many expect. I am preparing myself for it as well because I believe it is also a nice addition but with what will I start. More likely the 5DMkII than a Red but who knows. There will always be a need for image material no matter how it has been created.
Title: Rhe RED Med format
Post by: bcooter on November 16, 2008, 03:41:37 am
Quote from: PeterA
Each year thousands of tech savy graduates are pumped out from film and photography schools - none of these people are burdened by the facts of history -


of the assistants I hire worldwide, few if any are fond of video.   they studied to be still photographers, that is their goal, for most their passion.

I really thought it would be the opposite, given they have grown up with video games and an lcd in every room, car and hand, but few have a desire to be a video director or shoot motion.

in fact, most haven't really fallen in love with digital and prefer to shoot their old rzs and film cameras given the money or opportunity.  yes they all shoot with a 5d or a d something, but given their choice for personal work, they use film.

regardless, technology will make parallel productions available, though it will be the paying clients that either drive video into the realm of print or not.  by the time these assistants become full fledged working photographers, or image makers they may be shooting motion, whether they prefer it or not.

right now I doubt seriously if gucchi, h+m, macy's ,wallmart are all ditiching print advertising and in-store and putting up 6 ft. lcd screens and only web based material, but many retailers and manufacturers are selling more and more on the web and a lot of brick and mortar stores have moved their previous catalog money to the web.

as primarily a still photographer, obviously I am biased toward stills as I find something captivating in a still image I don't see in motion.   I was shooting in the streets of Hong Kong last week and saw a beautiful print campaign in a store window of a high end district.  it caught my attention first for the beauty of the imagery, but secondly it moved as it was linticular printing.  it actually moved in a more dramatic way than that james bond red display in times square.   I thought how cool, but then again it was more gimmick than substance as the images were strong whether they moved or not.

it is interesting that regardless of where I work or what I am hired to do, the main goal is to produce something visually interesting.  last night I had a long talk over dinner with an art director about moving imagery and he agreed that the same disciplines for still imagery do not necessarily apply to motion.   most still photographers reels have the look of stills.  beautifully crafted but they kind of have the story line of do you like my photograph, hold it, I'll move in a little closer for you to see it better.

successful motion, film or video really needs a story line.  james bond turning his head is kind of cool, but not really that impressive given it could have been shot with a dslr at 8fps and let's be honest, is anyone going to stand in the middle of times square and watch a 30 second spot?  they might watch a 4 second video but even that is asking a lot of someone on their way to work.

a lot of this falls into the area of gimmick and the advertising world loves gimmicks so he conversion from still to motion might come faster than most of us believe or want.  

what I find most interesting about all of this is how the lighting companies especially profoto have been slow to adopt hmi's and continuous sources into their lines.  from time to time I rent profoto hmis which are now officially off the market and would buy them in a minute if I could find them, but you would think given the annoucement of the 5dII and the Red there would be hmi's coming out to market daily.

I believe you will see more continuous sources soon.

to me what this really does signify, especailly the red annoucement is medium format better find a way to get their base iso settings higher, whether they go to cmos sensors or not.

if not medium format will continue to be a high light source, or still life based photography tool.

Title: Rhe RED Med format
Post by: Khun_K on November 16, 2008, 05:03:06 am
Quote from: Dustbak
In 1995 I worked for a company that specialized in digital transactional services (amongst others eCash, eg. digital money). At that stage being young and inexperienced we believed there would be no cash money anymore within 10 to 15 years (cash does cost around 1-2% GNP in most countries hence big financial incentives).

Now, I still am a firm believer that cash will disappear eventually but I found fundamental things like this take much longer to change than one that can see the future is willing to believe.

Since 1995 the world has seen many tech savvy ecomerce graduates but many I have met don't have a clue

Yes, there will be a convergence but a what pace? I don't know and I think nobody does. I am convinced it will take longer than many expect. I am preparing myself for it as well because I believe it is also a nice addition but with what will I start. More likely the 5DMkII than a Red but who knows. There will always be a need for image material no matter how it has been created.
To me all the new technology is welcome.  It really depend on the creative individual or team to be inspired and make use of such new technology, and if not, it will be replaced eventually by a more effective ones.  The price of Red camera to me is really competitive, because primary they are to compare to the cinematographic equipment, not compares to stills.  what Red offer to me, is the ability to be able to also shoot still, not that they are made for still and be able to shoot motions. It is a completely different camera and type of production.  Compare to the ARRI cam and the Panavision, they are indeed inexpensive and affordable, not to mention those bloody expensive cine lenses goes around them, and we shall see a newer type of media arise by embracing the RED, a very good news for those independent film and motion picture makers.
In commercial advertising, the RED is a really new tool and the production company does not need to run the motion and later the stills for the print AD, they can probably just do that in one go, not all of them, but I think there will be a lot of them.  
On the other hand, I think we ought to thank RED for their approach to announce what they are bringing to the market so at least for professionals who shoot still have time to react and  perhaps adjust.  While we are questioning RED being making such a move and advance announcement for the product to be released in 12-19 months time in negative thinking is really beyond understanding, I cannot stop wondering if we will all be happier when RED announce the cameras, and able to take order for delivery in 3 months??
With the world quickly merged to be a much smaller community, what mattered is not really what still professional photographers want, but rather the consumer, and the generations to come to accept and expect, if we cannot adapt, then we will have the problem, not the consumer.  
In reality, I really cannot understand why having a motion picture camera that can shoot high resolution still picture will be a negative news. Yes, they will be more expensive and the production cost will also be higher, HMI versus studio flash and so on, so people who are using medium format digital will still have advantage over it on cost.  Just like the motion flash file replace some movie presentations, so the still photography is also challenging the motion picture world.
We have seen many good things happened in the industries from those well managed, highly innovative mind and well funded company to become success over short period of time because they can inspire the bigger consumer base and become success, RED is likely to be one of them.
Title: Rhe RED Med format
Post by: Carsten W on November 16, 2008, 05:38:24 am
I wonder how a Red DSLR setup will handle. I don't see any concessions to still photographers on their camera, ie. all the buttons which make still photography easier, like ISO, Exp Comp, etc. I have zero experience with movie cameras though. Do they even have shutter speed buttons, or is everything through a menu?
Title: Rhe RED Med format
Post by: amsp on November 16, 2008, 07:24:47 am
Some people's predictions in this thread reminds me of when they said computers would make paper extinct, or that photography would make paintings obsolete.
Title: Rhe RED Med format
Post by: Morgan_Moore on November 16, 2008, 07:29:38 am
Quote from: carstenw
I wonder how a Red DSLR setup will handle. I don't see any concessions to still photographers on their camera, ie. all the buttons which make still photography easier, like ISO, Exp Comp, etc. I have zero experience with movie cameras though. Do they even have shutter speed buttons, or is everything through a menu?

It shoots raw - has a fixed ISO

(like MFDBs actually ? )

Exposure comp ect are not there on proper cameras like the FM2 and left unused by me on cameras like the D3

The fact that Red unlike any other vid cams has minimal controls is great

The only parameters  in any camera still or moving are ISO, Shuter speed , FPS, aperture and position of focus ring - I dont see the need for more controls than that - I like electronic help positioning my focus ring thie only thing missing from an FM2 !

many video cameras dont allow you to control these parameters independently unlike RED

-------

Im loving that QoS poster - I wonder if DC stayed still or they morphed a head onto a still (being the first frame of the RED sequence) - that sort of thing is the future and RED is there to do it

S
Title: Rhe RED Med format
Post by: Graham Mitchell on November 16, 2008, 07:56:48 am
Quote from: amsp
Some people's predictions in this thread reminds me of when they said computers would make paper extinct, or that photography would make paintings obsolete.

Exactly. Some are getting really carried away. Credit cards didn't make cash extinct. Cell phones didn't kill off land lines. TV didn't kill off radio. etc
Title: Rhe RED Med format
Post by: gwhitf on November 16, 2008, 09:21:24 am
Quote from: bcooter
to me what this really does signify, especailly the red annoucement is medium format better find a way to get their base iso settings higher, whether they go to cmos sensors or not.

The exciting thing about this CMOS thing with Red is: If this guy can do a large sensor with CMOS, then for sure Canon can.

We have been hearing for years from the MF reps: CCD is so expensive and to make anything larger than almost-645 is exhorbitant. If that is true, and they seemed to have topped out at ASA 400 with a CCD, then I'm saying, maybe CCD has run its course, and it's time for CMOS to take over.

I just hope that, inside of Canon and Nikon engineering departments, there are some hungry engineers that are saying, "If this JJ guy can do a big CMOS, then we can do it BETTER". Maybe now, it's time for a true MF Canon and/or Nikon, with a full-featured camera body, and we can let these Rube Goldberg designs fall by the wayside.
Title: Rhe RED Med format
Post by: Kumar on November 16, 2008, 09:37:47 am
Quote from: gwhitf
I just hope that, inside of Canon and Nikon engineering departments, there are some hungry engineers that are saying, "If this JJ guy can do a big CMOS, then we can do it BETTER". Maybe now, it's time for a true MF Canon and/or Nikon, with a full-featured camera body, and we can let these Rube Goldberg designs fall by the wayside.

What if the Nikon press conference on the 20th shows something like RED?

Kumar
Title: Rhe RED Med format
Post by: bcooter on November 16, 2008, 09:50:10 am
Quote from: gwhitf
The exciting thing about this CMOS thing with Red is: If this guy can do a large sensor with CMOS, then for sure Canon can.

We have been hearing for years from the MF reps: CCD is so expensive and to make anything larger than almost-645 is exhorbitant. If that is true, and they seemed to have topped out at ASA 400 with a CCD, then I'm saying, maybe CCD has run its course, and it's time for CMOS to take over.

I just hope that, inside of Canon and Nikon engineering departments, there are some hungry engineers that are saying, "If this JJ guy can do a big CMOS, then we can do it BETTER". Maybe now, it's time for a true MF Canon and/or Nikon, with a full-featured camera body, and we can let these Rube Goldberg designs fall by the wayside.


the red and all other cameras that produce stills are different in the fact the red seems to be a movie camera that will shoot stills where the d90 and 5dII are still cameras that shoot movies.

medium format on the other hand just shoots stills.   period.

what I find most interesting about the red isn't the technology but the fact that in just  a few years they are building a complete line of cameras, basically from a clean sheet.

they have somehow foregone the natural tendencies to do things the way that were done before, with optical viewfinders, 3 ccd sensors, dealer networks, alliances with established companys, presidents, vice presidents, distributors and  reps in every market in the world, etc. etc.

in other words a clean sheet not only in engineering but in sales and support and have stepped out of the frankencamera mold to build something specifically designed for digital.

the upside to all of this is I doubt if canon or nikon is going to set on their hands and watch red claim a complete market of professional video cameras or hybrids that do both stills and video.

I also doubt if medium format is prepared to change their whole system to meet that challange.

our resident medium format hall monitor has made it clear that the computers did not end printed paper, television did not end radio, credit cards did not end cash etc. etc. and in this one instance I agree with him, though he left out the fact that computers have and will continue to marginalize print and traditional broadcast and these combination cameras will probably marginalize print advertising even further.

so with that in mind, when you take the price of the $30,000 red vs. the $30,000 medium format still camera, which one will you plan on investing in for the future?

Title: Rhe RED Med format
Post by: gwhitf on November 16, 2008, 10:56:51 am
Quote from: bcooter
so with that in mind, when you take the price of the $30,000 red vs. the $30,000 medium format still camera, which one will you plan on investing in for the future?

"Uh, Bob, if it's about actual Return On Investment, I'll choose Door Number Two, which is two 5DII's, (main and backup), and three prime L Canon lenses, which brings me to about $8,500, and I'd use the other $21,500 for Testing, and for Promotion, and an efficient, well-designed website."
Title: Rhe RED Med format
Post by: rainer_v on November 16, 2008, 10:59:44 am
Quote from: bcooter
so with that in mind, when you take the price of the $30,000 red vs. the $30,000 medium format still camera, which one will you plan on investing in for the future?

if u ask me i`d vote for the medium format 30.000$(€) investment, but i am in a specific market which has nearly nothing in common with fashion or "normal" product advertisement needs.
i still cant see e.g. for architecture how a red could replace mf in the hi-end sector of this. not much sense to add here moving images although for sure some people will do it as some people make a living from 360 quicktime shots.
i wonder if architecture, art and maybe a part of studio product shootings (as cars) will remain the only domain for medium format, but it cant feed probably all existing mf companies.
its the question if  in the probably decreasing mf market  will remain enough people to hold alive one, two or three of the existing mf companies.
i could imagine that in fashion the mf market will be shreddered in the next 2 - 5 years,- but....  fashion doesnt means the whole world of photography ( thanks   ) so lets see how the things will go on. there are still   the half of architecture photographers in europe ( at least ! )  working with 4x5" film, they still are alive and active and will change to digital in the next few years as i believe. hard to say how big the mf market increase will be from these people who are in the jump to go digital, it could turn out that these are not so less people.
Title: Rhe RED Med format
Post by: jing q on November 16, 2008, 12:58:05 pm
actually why is it that people assume fashion is about a model moving around and a photographer snapping away? seems like such a cliche...
Title: Rhe RED Med format
Post by: witz on November 16, 2008, 01:30:45 pm
It wouldn't be inaccurate to assume that I couldn't exactly not say that it is or isn't almost partially incorrect.
Title: Rhe RED Med format
Post by: E_Edwards on November 16, 2008, 02:18:34 pm
One thing I would really, really like to know is what proportion of medium format backs is sold to still life, architectural, fashion, portrait, advertising or
wedding photographers.

If, for instance, it turns out that the majority of users are studio still life photographers, then the present format is not too good for the purpose, or it could be much better. Ditto for architectural photographers, they are always posting with solutions to adapt to their requirements.

Fashion?  By what I hear, there are problems with not high enough ISO, or portability, practicality, speed, etc.

Today's cameras are probably a compromise to satisfy every specialisation and I think they do reasonably well. I just cannot help thinking that if it was that easy to design and produce something offering all the features that we want, someone would've done it to gain market share and destroy the competition. I think the main problem facing medium format backs is advances in sensor design. Aren't these back makers at the mercy of Kodak and Dalsa? I think progress is likely to come quicker from brands that make their own sensors tailored to the photographic industry.





Title: Rhe RED Med format
Post by: pss on November 16, 2008, 02:35:12 pm
Quote from: foto-z
Exactly. Some are getting really carried away. Credit cards didn't make cash extinct. Cell phones didn't kill off land lines. TV didn't kill off radio. etc


actually a LOT less paper is used today and almost all advertising/signage used to be done by painters....

and cell phones ARE killing off landlines....TV completely killed radio.....yes it is still around but a niche product hussling to pick up the crumbs of corporate adbudgets....

but that really isn't the point...the point is can MF afford to loose any segment of the market to anyone....and the answer is no....

that bond poster is amazing...

i am loking forward to the 5dII so i can get into the swing of things regarding video and will take a look at what RED will have to offer in a year or two....

but let's not forget that canon and sony OWN the home and professional video market so far....but being huge companies they probably never had 2 departments talk and try to put that FF sensor in a HD body....once they figure that out (and RED will definitely light a fire) they will dominate the market just like they do now.....and maybe leave the "pro" tools to RED and such....i still don't see room for phase or leaf in there.....hass will always sell cameras the leica way (the old dentist thing...) and sinar does a lot of other things....
Title: Rhe RED Med format
Post by: bcooter on November 16, 2008, 02:40:10 pm
Quote from: gwhitf
"Uh, Bob, if it's about actual Return On Investment, I'll choose Door Number Two, which is two 5DII's, (main and backup), and three prime L Canon lenses, which brings me to about $8,500, and I'd use the other $21,500 for Testing, and for Promotion, and an efficient, well-designed website."


yes curtain #3 is probably the most selected and that's where Bob usually keeps the big prize, the unmentionable c word (canon).

of course when I said $30,000 I was just talking about the digital back, not really including the lenses, learning curve or beta testing investment, so for a lot of uses make that $40,000 to $55,000, depending on the euro, the new worldwide standard for currency calculations in the world of medium format.

the red entering the medium format world in quarter whatever 2010 probably won't change much today, but money and time spent today can alter a career.

whether you have selected curtain 3, or gone for that big ticket item behind curtain 1, it would probably be a good idea to invest $3,500 for the 5dII and also add a copy of "final cut pro for the beginner" to the list.


Title: Rhe RED Med format
Post by: pss on November 16, 2008, 03:59:53 pm
Quote from: bcooter
yes curtain #3 is probably the most selected and that's where Bob usually keeps the big prize, the unmentionable c word (canon).

of course when I said $30,000 I was just talking about the digital back, not really including the lenses, learning curve or beta testing investment, so for a lot of uses make that $40,000 to $55,000, depending on the euro, the new worldwide standard for currency calculations in the world of medium format.

the red entering the medium format world in quarter whatever 2010 probably won't change much today, but money and time spent today can alter a career.

whether you have selected curtain 3, or gone for that big ticket item behind curtain 1, it would probably be a good idea to invest $3,500 for the 5dII and also add a copy of "final cut pro for the beginner" to the list.


i agree..the 5DII seems to be the must buy item, for the HD learning factor alone...

but the advantage the RED has of course is that i don't have to do either or....i can just shoot and decide later what i will use for still and what for motion....but i think it will only be a matter of time before canon figures that out as well...if they haven't done so already....

i guess canon could really spoil the fun and make all their announcements for the next 2 years now as well....."and the 2DsmkII will have a 32x40mm sensor 16bit 25-100000 asa (we are only 2 stops away from it now!) 14stops DR.....60FPS.....available fall/winter 2010...projected price 8000$"....
Title: Rhe RED Med format
Post by: Murray Fredericks on November 16, 2008, 04:57:01 pm
I think there is no doubt that such a system has the power to grab a huge swathe of the market - assuming it can deliver the quality of a top MFBD system. That is a big ask, however. Look at the passion that is inspired on this forum whenever a comparison of DSLR and MFDB quality is raised. There is a high standard in the delivery of a still image to live up to. I would assume the tolerances of a video dedicated system would be nowhere near as strict as that for a still system?? Lately I have been trying to lift a still frame out of an HD video for a film poster shot and it is just not up to scratch.

Also, the talk of being able to shoot a video and still at the same time on the 1 system is unrealistic. Both are different mediums and the frame is constructed with different priorities. A still image has to tell the story in 1 frame and the video tells it in a sequence of frames. To assume you can get both at the same time with one operator and one system implies a massive compromise on one of the outputs - and that would  be the still in most cases.

You could probably get 'a result' in both media each time, but not a great result in both media every time. To setup  a video and then try to find a still image within that video would probably be akin to having your assistant shoot snaps or the client shoot with a compact while you do the 'real' work and hope that they get something 'useable' on a shoot.

I am looking foward to the red system because I shoot video as well as film, but my sense is that there will still be a 'video' shoot then a 'still' shoot where both are required to be good. If they are done on the same system that is something time will tell, but they will not be done in the same 'take'.

Murray




Title: Rhe RED Med format
Post by: jjj on November 16, 2008, 05:30:22 pm
Quote from: Morgan_Moore
Im loving that QoS poster
Quote from: pss
that bond poster is amazing...
I thought it was really creepy. More like an ad from some sort of horror movie.





Title: Rhe RED Med format
Post by: jjj on November 16, 2008, 05:36:31 pm
Quote from: Murray Fredericks
Also, the talk of being able to shoot a video and still at the same time on the 1 system is unrealistic. Both are different mediums and the frame is constructed with different priorities. A still image has to tell the story in 1 frame and the video tells it in a sequence of frames. To assume you can get both at the same time with one operator and one system implies a massive compromise on one of the outputs - and that would  be the still in most cases.

You could probably get 'a result' in both media each time, but not a great result in both media every time. To setup  a video and then try to find a still image within that video would probably be akin to having your assistant shoot snaps or the client shoot with a compact while you do the 'real' work and hope that they get something 'useable' on a shoot.

I am looking foward to the red system because I shoot video as well as film, but my sense is that there will still be a 'video' shoot then a 'still' shoot where both are required to be good. If they are done on the same system that is something time will tell, but they will not be done in the same 'take'.
And is one reason why on a movie set, the stills photography takes pictures after filming a scene has finished.
I don't like to shoot during takes anyway, as your positioning is wrong and either your camera makes a distracting noise or you use a blimp that has the ergonomics of a brick.
But I believe you can shoot silently with the 5DII, which will ironically mean lots of sales to film stills photographers.
Title: Rhe RED Med format
Post by: TMARK on November 16, 2008, 05:39:08 pm
Quote from: rainer_v
if u ask me i`d vote for the medium format 30.000$(€) investment, but i am in a specific market which has nearly nothing in common with fashion or "normal" product advertisement needs.
i still cant see e.g. for architecture how a red could replace mf in the hi-end sector of this. not much sense to add here moving images although for sure some people will do it as some people make a living from 360 quicktime shots.
i wonder if architecture, art and maybe a part of studio product shootings (as cars) will remain the only domain for medium format, but it cant feed probably all existing mf companies.
its the question if  in the probably decreasing mf market  will remain enough people to hold alive one, two or three of the existing mf companies.
i could imagine that in fashion the mf market will be shreddered in the next 2 - 5 years,- but....  fashion doesnt means the whole world of photography ( thanks   ) so lets see how the things will go on. there are still   the half of architecture photographers in europe ( at least ! )  working with 4x5" film, they still are alive and active and will change to digital in the next few years as i believe. hard to say how big the mf market increase will be from these people who are in the jump to go digital, it could turn out that these are not so less people.

I think you are correct.  Which is why I think Sinar will survive.  They can stay established in the stills market that will (probably) always need traditional movements.
Title: Rhe RED Med format
Post by: jjj on November 16, 2008, 05:39:52 pm
Quote from: Murray Fredericks
I would assume the tolerances of a video dedicated system would be nowhere near as strict as that for a still system??
If you mean a system designed for processing video, the opposite is the case.
Title: Rhe RED Med format
Post by: TMARK on November 16, 2008, 05:56:35 pm
Quote from: E_Edwards
One thing I would really, really like to know is what proportion of medium format backs is sold to still life, architectural, fashion, portrait, advertising or
wedding photographers.

If, for instance, it turns out that the majority of users are studio still life photographers, then the present format is not too good for the purpose, or it could be much better. Ditto for architectural photographers, they are always posting with solutions to adapt to their requirements.

Fashion?  By what I hear, there are problems with not high enough ISO, or portability, practicality, speed, etc.

Today's cameras are probably a compromise to satisfy every specialisation and I think they do reasonably well. I just cannot help thinking that if it was that easy to design and produce something offering all the features that we want, someone would've done it to gain market share and destroy the competition. I think the main problem facing medium format backs is advances in sensor design. Aren't these back makers at the mercy of Kodak and Dalsa? I think progress is likely to come quicker from brands that make their own sensors tailored to the photographic industry.

I think one of the big roadblocks faced by the MFDB makers is their corporate culture, much more so than their being tethered to Dalsa and Kodak's spy satellite based chips.  Even the fact that they are still tethered to Kodak and Dalsa is a sign of their failure to get their own fabs going or to cultivate other suppliers.
Title: Rhe RED Med format
Post by: jing q on November 16, 2008, 10:05:34 pm
Quote from: TMARK
I think one of the big roadblocks faced by the MFDB makers is their corporate culture, much more so than their being tethered to Dalsa and Kodak's spy satellite based chips.  Even the fact that they are still tethered to Kodak and Dalsa is a sign of their failure to get their own fabs going or to cultivate other suppliers.

good point: aren't there other chip manufacturers???
Title: Rhe RED Med format
Post by: AndreNapier on November 17, 2008, 12:28:44 am
Quote from: PeterA
Still shooters are going to be gone within 10 years if they are stars and much sooner if they are not. The 645 and 617 chips will prove the paradigm shift as the technology delivers mind blowing HD capability. Like traditional photography - without the burden of analogue design hassles ( mirrors etc)  - view camera movements are a mere lego step away with these new systems - every aspect of film and photography will be challenged and won over by this technology. I think working pros have about a year to get their act together - after which anyone not on top of the convergence technology will be struggling firstly from lacking the flexibility to deliver to clients what they want and secondly from being left behind in the creativity stakes.

Each year thousands of tech savy graduates are pumped out from film and photography schools - none of these people are burdened by the facts of history - all of them wish to use the best technology they can to find a voice and express themselves. Personally,  I am fortunate not having to 'earn' a living shooting and can just shoot for personal satisfaction and the occasional editorial type ad for the fun of it. If I had to earn a living as a photographer, I would already be skilling up or preparing to exit.

I am already preparing a profession change. I will be teaching videographers how to take pictures.
The idea of grabbing a great frame from a motion image is just plain silly to me.
Anybody who understand the complexity of the process of taking PRODUCT SELLING IMAGE must find  all the predictions humorous. Only those who shoot thousands of frames on their DSLR in hope to find a keeper may be incline to believe it.  Let see, during two hours session 50 frames a second/ 3000 frames a minute/ 360,000 in two hours - there must be something good there, right? Go edit.
If you don't film all two hours you still going to miss that one frame. That is besides all others aspects that separate stills from motion.
http://AndreNapier.com (http://AndreNapier.com)
Title: Rhe RED Med format
Post by: lecter on November 17, 2008, 01:19:10 am
It's amazing how the RED announcement of virtual-ware has aroused the passions of many.

It goes to show that the MF Manufacturers need to waken up, or they may be the dinosaurs they are accused of being.

Hassy with their stupid "Go Proprietory" ideas must be sweating a little.

Let's hope innovation is addictive.

Title: Rhe RED Med format
Post by: Morgan_Moore on November 17, 2008, 01:26:41 am
Quote from: AndreNapier
The idea of grabbing a great frame from a motion image is just plain silly to me.

Anybody who understand the complexity of the process of taking PRODUCT SELLING IMAGE must find  all the predictions humorous. Only those who shoot thousands of frames on their DSLR in hope to find a keeper may be incline to believe it.  Let see, during two hours session 50 frames a second/ 3000 frames a minute/ 360,000 in two hours - there must be something good there, right? Go edit.
If you don't film all two hours you still going to miss that one frame. That is besides all others aspects that separate stills from motion.
http://AndreNapier.com (http://AndreNapier.com)

You are missing the point

the method will be..

Set up you still shot and roll - like the bond poster

Basically you shoot miniclips going for a great still on frame one, say for a model you used to go for 36 Frames in that dress you will now shoot 36 Clips

So you have

- a still shot

- a cut in for a film

- a web animation where the still shot displays and 'on mouse over' something happens like the modelspins round round you see the back of the dress

I shoot beer for a local client

Have been practicing the usual  still composition/lighting  (white background/backlit) - but the bubbles move in the glass - I know which I'd put on my website

S

Title: Rhe RED Med format
Post by: AndreNapier on November 17, 2008, 04:00:59 am
Quote from: Morgan_Moore
You are missing the point

the method will be..

Set up you still shot and roll - like the bond poster

Basically you shoot miniclips going for a great still on frame one, say for a model you used to go for 36 Frames in that dress you will now shoot 36 Clips

So you have

- a still shot

- a cut in for a film

- a web animation where the still shot displays and 'on mouse over' something happens like the modelspins round round you see the back of the dress

I shoot beer for a local client

Have been practicing the usual  still composition/lighting  (white background/backlit) - but the bubbles move in the glass - I know which I'd put on my website

S

Morgan,
Now I got it. Since still photography is so complicated no videgrapher will become a great photog instead we will eliminate their useless and simple profession.
Took me a while but I have it now. So now back to Youtube since I have to watch some instructional video on how to shoot some great motion clips.
Andre.
Title: Rhe RED Med format
Post by: stevephoto on November 17, 2008, 06:21:36 am
Quote from: AndreNapier
Morgan,
Now I got it. Since still photography is so complicated no videgrapher will become a great photog instead we will eliminate their useless and simple profession.
Took me a while but I have it now. So now back to Youtube since I have to watch some instructional video on how to shoot some great motion clips.
Andre.

On a business level, it is not normally considered good business for a company to talk about a product to be released some way into the future, unless it might indicate promotion for new investment funds for that company, and in some cases those funds might then be channeled to fund current liquidty issues.

If equipment makes it easier to come up with acceptable ( to the client ) middle to lower range work, the charge for that work will have a lot of downward pressure, but the top creative level will always be the top regardless of equipment since it's the person's creative and communication skill set and ultimately their own brand (not the equipment) that is being paid for by the client.

Anyone who thinks equipment will alter their opportunity for success, they  should go into equipment sales or hire. If however they see new creative opportunities to further enhance their current status, thats a whole different ball game.
Title: Rhe RED Med format
Post by: Graeme Nattress on November 17, 2008, 07:41:11 am
Stevephoto, if you look into the background and owner of RED, you'll see why pre-announcements are not for the reasons you mention.

AndreNapier, having motion at the same quality as stills on the camera, is not about allowing you to shoot for a long time at a high fps so you can go and later cherry pick that one frame that works. Now I'm sure someone will do that, but that's not the intention. There are many other uses to a photographer for the high fps abilities, especially on the larger frame sizes where medium and large format digital cameras are currently a bit slower than 35mm DSLRs. The capabilities we're talking about now mean you'll be able to shoot RAW and not worry about a buffer filling up. You'll just be able to shoot as much as fast as you want, and not stop until your card or drive is full. I can think of many creative uses of high fps that don't include picking a frame to use. Even if someone does shoot like mad to get just one good frame, does it really matter how they get that one great image if indeed it is the image that counts?

Graeme
Title: Rhe RED Med format
Post by: Morgan_Moore on November 17, 2008, 08:08:32 am
Quote from: AndreNapier
Morgan,
Now I got it. Since still photography is so complicated no videgrapher will become a great photog instead we will eliminate their useless and simple profession.
Took me a while but I have it now. So now back to Youtube since I have to watch some instructional video on how to shoot some great motion clips.
Andre.

I dont know if you are joking !

There will be stills photographers who provide motion to and stills photographers that dont provide motion - IMO the ones that dont could be at risk from the ones that do

At the simplest level if I were a client who'd paid for location/model Id at least want a bit of motion squeezed off around the stills shoot

I thinkthis new trade is different from videography - we are talking seconds of footage not minutes or hours provided by 'moving stills photographers' (!)

Vimeo is good for footage - less 'babys first crawl' than youtube

S


Title: Rhe RED Med format
Post by: stevephoto on November 17, 2008, 08:29:28 am
Quote from: Graeme Nattress
Stevephoto, if you look into the background and owner of RED, you'll see why pre-announcements are not for the reasons you mention.

AndreNapier, having motion at the same quality as stills on the camera, is not about allowing you to shoot for a long time at a high fps so you can go and later cherry pick that one frame that works. Now I'm sure someone will do that, but that's not the intention. There are many other uses to a photographer for the high fps abilities, especially on the larger frame sizes where medium and large format digital cameras are currently a bit slower than 35mm DSLRs. The capabilities we're talking about now mean you'll be able to shoot RAW and not worry about a buffer filling up. You'll just be able to shoot as much as fast as you want, and not stop until your card or drive is full. I can think of many creative uses of high fps that don't include picking a frame to use. Even if someone does shoot like mad to get just one good frame, does it really matter how they get that one great image if indeed it is the image that counts?

Graeme

my comment was a general one, and not specific to any company

specifically as unless you are the financial director of a company, or have access to the specific cash flow details of a company, and the quality of the sales book, it is impossible to accurately access the viability of any company going forward

i would say though that all business people and businesses are under new paradigm shift due to the current reversion to standard business practices that we  are currently at the beginning of, and that reversion will take quite some years to reach stabilisation, we therefore have to be careful of the basis on which we make current judgements.
Title: Rhe RED Med format
Post by: TMARK on November 17, 2008, 10:20:15 am
Quote from: stevephoto
my comment was a general one, and not specific to any company

specifically as unless you are the financial director of a company, or have access to the specific cash flow details of a company, and the quality of the sales book, it is impossible to accurately access the viability of any company going forward

i would say though that all business people and businesses are under new paradigm shift due to the current reversion to standard business practices that we  are currently at the beginning of, and that reversion will take quite some years to reach stabilisation, we therefore have to be careful of the basis on which we make current judgements.

I have more faith in Red staying in business than I do of the back makers, or GM for that matter. Only Blad seems to have their act together.
Title: Rhe RED Med format
Post by: Imaginara on November 17, 2008, 10:46:30 am
Quote from: jing q
actually why is it that people assume fashion is about a model moving around and a photographer snapping away? seems like such a cliche...

In some of the dresses and outfits i've had to shoot, moving is the LAST thing the model will be doing

And as a few already pointed out, predicting the death of film photography.. and even still photography is just stupid. I personally predict that we 10 years from now will still be bickering about if the next technology will kill the old one. And guess what, i bet people are still shooting and developing film then.

Its all nice to have new technology to come in and stir things up, but lets keep the predictions out of it. None of us knows the future and considering the stability of the financial market, i think any predictions on who will be surviving in 10 years is just daft.

Lets go out and shoot stuff instead. (With cameras mind you!)
Title: Rhe RED Med format
Post by: Graham Mitchell on November 17, 2008, 11:18:59 am
Quote from: TMARK
I have more faith in Red staying in business than I do of the back makers, or GM for that matter. Only Blad seems to have their act together.

Not everything is as it appears...
Title: Rhe RED Med format
Post by: Carsten W on November 17, 2008, 11:55:55 am
Quote from: foto-z
Not everything is as it appears...

You mean, GM will somehow magically survive?  
Title: Rhe RED Med format
Post by: TMARK on November 17, 2008, 12:32:55 pm
Quote from: foto-z
Not everything is as it appears...

Oh, OK.  You are speaking as in Lacanian terms, yes yes?  Perhaps our friend Schoepenhauer?  Die Welt als Will und Vorstellung?
Title: Rhe RED Med format
Post by: stevephoto on November 17, 2008, 12:37:14 pm
Quote from: carstenw
You mean, GM will somehow magically survive?  

GM can survive, at least in some form, just the shareholders/bondholders who would take a hit

a car company is valuable to an economy and more importantly a government, does have the ability to churn billions when its on a roll and has valuable assets, apart from its management of course!

i would rather be the head of GM phoning the US president for help, than a medium format camera manufacturer calling his local bank manager, or relying on friendly investment from a potentially unfriendly investor!

when camera equipment does cost so much and does equate to a large percentage of photographer's annual earnings and where the photographer is seeking to amortise that expense against unknown earnings in the future, it probably is right for them to at least take a view of any company's viability going forward
Title: Rhe RED Med format
Post by: bcooter on November 18, 2008, 12:02:24 am
Quote from: foto-z
Not everything is as it appears...


this is probably true, especially in medium format, due to the lack of transparency in the information the buyers receive.

case in point.  is sinar's new relationship with leaf mean that all or part or any of the sinar line will be discontinued.  

an answer to this probably shouldn't matter much to a buyer until you get to the point of writing a $30,000 or more check for the camera, then ongoing support and most importantly development of your system is important.

photokina is a great example of this.  can anyone read the announcements from this show and base their present and future buying decisions.   will phase have leica lenses for the mamiya, will the lecia s2 tether to 4.5.2 or .3 or .4.   since the red announcement, will any medium format camera offer video as an option.

medium format has a history of getting 90% there and then going on to the next new product, leaving their customers with the option of workarounds or spending more money to continue to upgrade.

so yes, not everything is as it appears, but where do you go to get the actual facts, before your spend the money.

Title: Rhe RED Med format
Post by: AndreNapier on November 18, 2008, 12:51:48 am
Quote from: Imaginara
In some of the dresses and outfits i've had to shoot, moving is the LAST thing the model will be doing

When shooting a composed image of a model for advertising with product placement and using wide angle lens like 35HC, one inch  of movement of a model accounts for a difference between great shot and total crap. Different tools for different jobs. It is and always will be this way. I see a long life for DB's,  at least as long as the generation of the older photogs  who will not pick up DSLR .
Title: Rhe RED Med format
Post by: thsinar on November 18, 2008, 05:13:48 am
bcooter,

I don't know who told you this, or where you did read it, but I wish to firmly deny this comment or claim:

Sinar is discontinuing nothing.

I have been telling this the very same day of the partnership announcement during Photokina, and it was pretty clear from our side, with an OFFICIAL disclaimer from Sinar directly.

Best regards,
Thierry

Quote from: bcooter
case in point.  is sinar's new relationship with leaf mean that all or part or any of the sinar line will be discontinued.
Title: Rhe RED Med format
Post by: bcooter on November 18, 2008, 02:15:59 pm
Quote from: thsinar
bcooter,

I don't know who told you this, or where you did read it, but I wish to firmly deny this comment or claim:

Sinar is discontinuing nothing.

I have been telling this the very same day of the partnership announcement during Photokina, and it was pretty clear from our side, with an OFFICIAL disclaimer from Sinar directly.

Best regards,
Thierry


my post wasn't specific only to sinar, it was directed to the digital camera market and most specifically to medium format.

be realistic, there is not one manufacturer that hasn't announced something that is not yet in the dealers or at least in the market in full working order.  lenses, software, new cameras, backs, accessories and associations.

phase made public an association with mamiya a year or so before anything was actually presented, much less sold, your own company has your newest 31mpx back shown at the last two photo trade shows, photo plus and photokina and still is working out the bugs.

your company made a joint announcement with leaf, but the specifics are still forthcoming.

that seems to be the norm with medium format and though the dslr makers have had their own set of issues, they seem to be much quicker and more complete from announcement to delivery than medium format.  there probably is some kind of lesson to be learned from that.

on this site there is a phase/schneider user with a system that doesn't work.  the phase rep says it's schneider's problem, but regardless of who's at fault,  there is at least one user out there that spent $30,000 for a camera, pushed the button and it doesn't work.

saying that doesn't mean phase is a bad company, or mistakes can't happen but do you see the point in why so many photographers are really concerned about their medium format purchases.

theirry, for you any mention of sinar seems to bring out a quick response, but step back for a moment and put yourself in the buyers position and while your doing this, look at why by all accounts sinar's sales are below the other three makers of medium format.

it's almost funny that the red announcement brings out so much intense scrutiny by loyalist of other brands.   red, making a two year prior press release is no different than what medium format has done for it's history.

maybe two or three years ago $30,000 was an easy investment for a photographer to make, but in today's changing business climate and the fact that everyone seems to be adding some form of video or motion device to their still cameras, investing $30,000 makes most of us think about waiting until we see how things shake out.

Title: Rhe RED Med format
Post by: gwhitf on November 18, 2008, 02:18:25 pm
Quote from: bcooter
maybe two or three years ago $30,000 was an easy investment for a photographer to make, but in today's changing business climate and the fact that everyone seems to be adding some form of video or motion device to their still cameras, investing $30,000 makes most of us think about waiting until we see how things shake out.

http://blog.vincentlaforet.com/2008/11/17/...rm-has-arrived/ (http://blog.vincentlaforet.com/2008/11/17/the-perfect-storm-has-arrived/)
Title: Rhe RED Med format
Post by: bcooter on November 18, 2008, 02:58:08 pm
Quote from: gwhitf
http://blog.vincentlaforet.com/2008/11/17/...rm-has-arrived/ (http://blog.vincentlaforet.com/2008/11/17/the-perfect-storm-has-arrived/)



if you boil vincent's blog down to just a few sentences it would say, don't anticipate anything and be prepared to offer your client more.

I find it interesting that so many people on this thread are so opposed to a fast fps still or video camera (if video is the correct word).

today we finished shooting a project and on the ride to the next location I mentioned to the art director about a new still camera that will shoot 40 or 50 fps.

he said wow, we would never miss a movement or expression.   if I had mentioned this two years ago he probably would have said, hell, who wants to edit 40 fps.

the art director, just like us, has more pressure than ever to deliver that one decisive, incredible moment and whether we get there by skill, luck or talent or equipment it is important to him and his client that we get the shot.

tonight we we reviewed today's shoot the art director mentioned how great it would be if some of the scenes were in motion and could be used for video playback.  he saw value in that and even though his agency and the company they represent has no specific media plan for moving imagery for this project, they sure as heck would love to have it, especially if it could be shot continuous with the stills.

that's what I think the red will offer and maybe even the canon 5dII.

more value for the money, more bang for the buck.

what I don't understand is the resistance.  nobody is going to make a still photographer have motion camera capabiltiies, but I think all of should be aware that very soon, few still photographers won't have some type of camera in their kit that will allow motion or at least the assurance of almost always capturing the moment.

it's surely worth thinking about.

Title: Rhe RED Med format
Post by: hubell on November 18, 2008, 03:48:43 pm
Quote from: bcooter
today we finished shooting a project and on the ride to the next location I mentioned to the art director about a new still camera that will shoot 40 or 50 fps.

he said wow, we would never miss a movement or expression.   if I had mentioned this two years ago he probably would have said, hell, who wants to edit 40 fps.

the art director, just like us, has more pressure than ever to deliver that one decisive, incredible moment and whether we get there by skill, luck or talent or equipment it is important to him and his client that we get the shot.

tonight we we reviewed today's shoot the art director mentioned how great it would be if some of the scenes were in motion and could be used for video playback.  he saw value in that and even though his agency and the company they represent has no specific media plan for moving imagery for this project, they sure as heck would love to have it, especially if it could be shot continuous with the stills.

that's what I think the red will offer and maybe even the canon 5dII.

more value for the money, more bang for the buck.

what I don't understand is the resistance.  nobody is going to make a still photographer have motion camera capabiltiies, but I think all of should be aware that very soon, few still photographers won't have some type of camera in their kit that will allow motion or at least the assurance of almost always capturing the moment.

it's surely worth thinking about.

Sounds quite stressful to me. [G] Thirty minutes of shooting a model at 40 FPS comes out to 48,000 frames to choose from in deciding what frame best captures what you want. I take maybe 30 shots of a group of trees that are standing still over a 30 minute period and it takes me days to figure out which of the 30 I like best, or that I really don't like any of them very much.
Title: Rhe RED Med format
Post by: Graham Mitchell on November 18, 2008, 04:30:43 pm
Quote from: hcubell
Sounds quite stressful to me. [G] Thirty minutes of shooting a model at 40 FPS comes out to 48,000 frames to choose from in deciding what frame best captures what you want.

Yep, it's amazing that the same people who write endlessly about needing faster workflows are the same ones dying to sort through tens of thousands of frames. No thanks!
Title: Rhe RED Med format
Post by: Carsten W on November 18, 2008, 04:53:23 pm
Quote from: hcubell
Sounds quite stressful to me. [G] Thirty minutes of shooting a model at 40 FPS comes out to 48,000 frames to choose from in deciding what frame best captures what you want. I take maybe 30 shots of a group of trees that are standing still over a 30 minute period and it takes me days to figure out which of the 30 I like best, or that I really don't like any of them very much.

I don't think that this is what anyone is suggesting, and in fact, someone has already refuted it. It is not about filming a whole session, just about squirting out sequences where before a single frame would be shot. You might make 3-5 second bursts of a particular movement, and then stop again.

As you and Graham point out, there will be more frames to sort through, even if it isn't 48000. I don't think that the same still photography tools which are in use now could feasibly do the job. There would be a need for new tools, more in line with Final Cut Pro combined with Capture One, or something like that. Some way of scrubbing fast through a sequence, back and forth, until the best moment has been isolated, and then stepping through the last few shots to get the best one. If the machines are fast, it could work.

I can see where a certain type of customer might find that attractive, but it is not clear to me what proportion of the current market would be interested in/demand such a workflow though, or the short animations coming out of it.
Title: Rhe RED Med format
Post by: samuel_js on November 18, 2008, 05:04:19 pm
Quote from: bcooter
he said wow, we would never miss a movement or expression.   if I had mentioned this two years ago he probably would have said, hell, who wants to edit 40 fps.

the art director, just like us, has more pressure than ever to deliver that one decisive, incredible moment and whether we get there by skill, luck or talent or equipment it is important to him and his client that we get the shot.

I can see why people want to add video to complete different productions but suggesting that video cameras can replace photo cameras is insane.
If you want something able to "capture the moment" put the money in a good photographer instead. End of story.
If you think a video camera is the solution you're totally wrong.
Just my opinion...

(http://www.arts.rpi.edu/~ruiz/Lessons/Photojournalism/Frank%20Capra.jpg)
Title: Rhe RED Med format
Post by: Tim Lüdin on November 18, 2008, 05:36:11 pm
Quote from: foto-z
Yep, it's amazing that the same people who write endlessly about needing faster workflows are the same ones dying to sort through tens of thousands of frames. No thanks!

You guys just dont wanna get it?! It reminds me of the old film versus digital discussions. You all know how it turned out.
With a RED epic you will have the total freedom of shooting what you want/need on a high-end level.
I'm a DP and photographer and I'm totaly stoked about the idea about filming an ad and also take some stills in
the same setup only a few seconds after filming. Or the other way around with the same tool.
Nobody is going to look throug millions of frames, that's total bull. You will shoot only the stuff you need at the time. I have done that before with my RED one.
It's like working with MF. Your shooting style is very precise. Only a few seconds here and there. Exactly like in the filmbusiness. No time and money for fooling around and shooting tons of footage.
 
From the moment you decide to shot some stills with a RED, the talent has to act like on a photoshoot.
If you want some film sequences, the talent brings some more motion in to play. Very easy for them.

In the last weeks I have been on many sets where we had to shoot motion and still on the same day, in the same sets with
the same talents. Ads that will end up on  the web, tv, movietheaters and end up as big printcampagnes.
An Epic will save the producers money and give them total flexebility.
As I wrote it earlier, the big ad agencys here in switzerland already smelled the cookie.
They are talking about it already and Switzerland is not LA.

I work in both worlds and I think that things will change faster than you can say what...
Nothing to be afraid of. Just more possebilities and I love that.

Tim





Title: Rhe RED Med format
Post by: Morgan_Moore on November 18, 2008, 06:11:56 pm
Quote from: Tim Lüdin
You guys just dont wanna get it?! It reminds me of the old film versus digital discussions. You all know how it turned out.
With a RED epic you will have the total freedom of shooting what you want/need on a high-end level.
I'm a DP and photographer and I'm totaly stoked about the idea about filming an ad and also take some stills in
the same setup only a few seconds after filming. Or the other way around with the same tool.
Nobody is going to look throug millions of frames, that's total bull. You will shoot only the stuff you need at the time. I have done that before with my RED one.
It's like working with MF. Your shooting style is very precise. Only a few seconds here and there. Exactly like in the filmbusiness. No time and money for fooling around and shooting tons of footage.
 
From the moment you decide to shot some stills with a RED, the talent has to act like on a photoshoot.
If you want some film sequences, the talent brings some more motion in to play. Very easy for them.

In the last weeks I have been on many sets where we had to shoot motion and still on the same day, in the same sets with
the same talents. Ads that will end up on  the web, tv, movietheaters and end up as big printcampagnes.
An Epic will save the producers money and give them total flexebility.
As I wrote it earlier, the big ad agencys here in switzerland already smelled the cookie.
They are talking about it already and Switzerland is not LA.

I work in both worlds and I think that things will change faster than you can say what...
Nothing to be afraid of. Just more possebilities and I love that.

Tim

Absolutley.

Its just efficiency - my whole line on this economy thing is not that I will cut rates but will embrace technology to bring the client more

Like the nikon D3 - the ISO cuts lighting and tripod time (I dont use one) and therefor means I can shoot more per day - great for the client

At the moment (and for a while) budget requires me to use two tools D3 EX1, but that will change.. I would swap em for a red (if it had AF ! )



Title: Rhe RED Med format
Post by: Graham Mitchell on November 18, 2008, 06:14:22 pm
Quote from: Tim Lüdin
You guys just dont wanna get it?! It reminds me of the old film versus digital discussions. You all know how it turned out.

It's nothing like digital and film. Maybe you just don't get it, or maybe your needs just happen to coincide with what Red offers. As I keep saying, Red looks great for video but not as a still camera.

- I want an optical viewfinder. Anything else is a joke.
- I want a smaller lighter camera, not MUCH bigger and heavier like Red
- I want less time spent on workflow and archiving, not more
- I need a camera which can work with flash (apparently Red needs continuous light)
- Red is more expensive than even today's MF digital cameras, never mind what we will have in 2 years
- the ISO range, image quality, and range of shutter speeds are as yet unknown

What's hard to understand about that?

Title: Rhe RED Med format
Post by: Morgan_Moore on November 18, 2008, 06:16:38 pm
Quote from: carstenw
it is not clear to me what proportion of the current market would be interested in  .... the short animations coming out of it.

A soon as one fashion house website puts a dress picture in thier online catalogue where you mouse over and the model spins or continues down the catwalk everyone will want it - my guess

same with products

S
Title: Rhe RED Med format
Post by: Morgan_Moore on November 18, 2008, 06:22:19 pm
Quote from: foto-z
It's nothing like digital and film. Maybe you just don't get it, or maybe your needs just happen to coincide with what Red offers. As I keep saying, Red looks great for video but not as a still camera.

- I want an optical viewfinder. Anything else is a joke.
- I want a smaller lighter camera, not MUCH bigger and heavier like Red
- I want less time spent on workflow and archiving, not more
- I need a camera which can work with flash (apparently Red needs continuous light)
- Red is more expensive than even today's MF digital cameras, never mind what we will have in 2 years
- the ISO range, image quality, and range of shutter speeds are as yet unknown

What's hard to understand about that?

Mr Z

All of those things are problems of first generation of the technology - you have legitimate reservations and requirements

Maybe you were on here in 1999 saying 'digital sounds cool but  1.4mp doesnt cut it - my clients want a 50mb scan'

indeed that was a valid statement but the next generations of the technology did deliver - the 1dsmk5 or D4x will be the show stopper not the RED

The red reminds me of the early Digital backs  - remember them - insane money -  thethered only - workflow hell - crop sensors - 25ISO - but a great image could be extracted by those on  'the bleeding edge'

S
Title: Rhe RED Med format
Post by: Graham Mitchell on November 18, 2008, 06:23:04 pm
Quote from: Morgan_Moore
A soon as one fashion house website puts a dress picture in thier online catalogue where you mouse over and the model spins or continues down the catwalk everyone will want it - my guess

same with products

S

Seems like serious overkill for web use. You can already take a still from 1080p and you have all you need for a webpage.
Title: Rhe RED Med format
Post by: Graham Mitchell on November 18, 2008, 06:26:40 pm
Quote from: Morgan_Moore
Mr Z

All of those things are problems of first generation of the technology - you have legitimate reservations and requirements

Maybe you were on here in 1999 saying 'digital sounds cool but  1.4mp doesnt cut it - my clients want a 50mb scan'

indeed that was a valid statement but the next generations of the technology did deliver - the 1dsmk5 or D4x will be the show stopper not the RED

S

All true, so why are some people here getting so excited about these Red models killing off medium format digital? Just crazy.
Title: Rhe RED Med format
Post by: Tim Lüdin on November 18, 2008, 06:32:36 pm
Quote from: foto-z
It's nothing like digital and film. Maybe you just don't get it, or maybe your needs just happen to coincide with what Red offers. As I keep saying, Red looks great for video but not as a still camera.

- I want an optical viewfinder. Anything else is a joke.
- I want a smaller lighter camera, not MUCH bigger and heavier like Red
- I want less time spent on workflow and archiving, not more
- I need a camera which can work with flash (apparently Red needs continuous light)
- Red is more expensive than even today's MF digital cameras, never mind what we will have in 2 years
- the ISO range, image quality, and range of shutter speeds are as yet unknown

What's hard to understand about that?

RED just stands for the starting point of it.
Things will get hybrid. Faster than you think.
You wouldn't bother about viewfinder and such, it's just details. The whole picture is going to change very fast.
Ah and by the way, have you ever looked through a RED viewfinder? The new one will be twice as sharp. Optical was what again?

Dont get me wrong here. I dont want to start I fight or such. I can understand you very good.
I had the same mindset 1 year ago, till I got my first RED. Now my whole world of picture taking changed.
The new stuff will not only change mine.

Also the coming recession will push things in that way. Only one cam and one photographer/dp on the set.
Everything will look like out of one box. One style and one look.
Morgan had a great idea with the moving model from the still on the website.
That's exactly where this will be going.

Tim



Title: Rhe RED Med format
Post by: Carsten W on November 18, 2008, 06:37:02 pm
Quote from: Morgan_Moore
A soon as one fashion house website puts a dress picture in thier online catalogue where you mouse over and the model spins or continues down the catwalk everyone will want it - my guess

same with products

S

The internet is going to have to go through an upgrade cycle or three before I want to see something like that on webpages I visit. The codecs aren't good enough to get a fluid experience for that kind of quality. Either you will have crap quality, like youtube, or you will have tiny resolutions (not compelling), or you will have a playback that stutters as it struggles to download the next frames, or a long buffering time. For niche markets, perhaps, but for general stuff, the internet is not ready, and won't be for a few years. Therefore, the real threat of the Red is likely at the earliest in 3-5 years. Until then, photography will continue to rule, with the occasional mini-movie, just like today.
Title: Rhe RED Med format
Post by: Morgan_Moore on November 18, 2008, 06:40:18 pm
Quote from: foto-z
Seems like serious overkill for web use. You can already take a still from 1080p and you have all you need for a webpage. ....   All true, so why are some people here getting so excited about these Red models killing off medium format digital? Just crazy.

1080 Indeed you can - im experimenting on that right now !

The people getting exited now are those who were excited by digital cameras in 1999

I bought my kodak proback when the largest DSLR was 6mp I think - it was a revlolution because I broke into a market that was slide only- and made me money !

And as for digital as a newspaper man in those days I can say that digital was a wonder - have you ever processed a film in your car boot at a sports match, scanned it with a coolpix and sent it on a 1440 BPS nokia 2110 - thats what I used to do - my innovation was cooking the film chemicals in a microwave running off the car batteries to save time - even the coolpix was a wonder compered to the $120000 hasselblad* analogue transmitter that nearly broke my employer at the time

The death of MF cameras is more a threat from the mainstream cameras like the Sony and Canon - unless they jump ahead again - we all know they have been jumping the wrong way with MP

Phase or Sinar could be on everyones lips again if they got clean 50,000 ISO or 50FPS or something that CaNikon dont have

Id love a 30FPS sinar back to keep on my H1 and lenses

S

*interesting to note that is was hasselblad with the $120000 early adopter solution that was bounded by the $2000 nikon solution
Title: Rhe RED Med format
Post by: Morgan_Moore on November 18, 2008, 06:43:07 pm
Quote from: carstenw
The internet is going to have to go through an upgrade cycle or three before I want to see something like that on webpages I visit. The codecs aren't good enough to get a fluid experience for that kind of quality. Either you will have crap quality, like youtube, or you will have tiny resolutions (not compelling), or you will have a playback that stutters as it struggles to download the next frames, or a long buffering time. For niche markets, perhaps, but for general stuff, the internet is not ready, and won't be for a few years. Therefore, the real threat of the Red is likely at the earliest in 3-5 years. Until then, photography will continue to rule, with the occasional mini-movie, just like today.

www.volvo.co.uk rolls movie fine, vimeo works well - I dont think its that far off

S
Title: Rhe RED Med format
Post by: Graham Mitchell on November 18, 2008, 06:43:34 pm
Quote from: Tim Lüdin
Things will get hybrid. Faster than you think.

That doesn't mean that they will displace existing cameras. Example: mobile phone cameras have not made P&S cameras obsolete. The internet did not kill off books. They both have their place.

Quote from: Tim Lüdin
Ah and by the way, have you ever looked through a RED viewfinder? The new one will be twice as sharp. Optical was what again?

Yes, unusable for critical focus at high resolution.

Quote from: Tim Lüdin
Also the coming recession will push things in that way.

I thought it was already here

Quote from: Tim Lüdin
Only one cam and one photographer/dp on the set.

Only 5% of my advertising projects have a corresponding video made anyway, and as people keep mentioning there is more to a photo than taking a still from a video. You need to communicate everything in one image. This changes the composition among other things. Technology doesn't change the fundamentals.
Title: Rhe RED Med format
Post by: Tim Lüdin on November 18, 2008, 06:44:04 pm
Quote from: carstenw
The internet is going to have to go through an upgrade cycle or three before I want to see something like that on webpages I visit. The codecs aren't good enough to get a fluid experience for that kind of quality. Either you will have crap quality, like youtube, or you will have tiny resolutions (not compelling), or you will have a playback that stutters as it struggles to download the next frames, or a long buffering time. For niche markets, perhaps, but for general stuff, the internet is not ready, and won't be for a few years. Therefore, the real threat of the Red is likely at the earliest in 3-5 years. Until then, photography will continue to rule, with the occasional mini-movie, just like today.

Hey carsten, where do you live?
The internet in switzerland is very fast. We have no problem with movies etc.

The RED stuff isnt about the max resolution on the web. It's about the filmlook, the 35mm depth of field etc.
That's something I can even see on youtube.
The internet will become very fast worldwide in the next years. Finaly the internet will end up in our living rooms plugged into
our TVsets. It's gonna be full hd and from then on every one will see the real quality behind film or foto content.
The quality will go up not down.
That's why the new REDs will be so killer. You start out with a great picture and from there you can go where ever you like.
Web, print, movies etc.
That's what the ad agencys whant, totaly flexebility.

Cheers
Tim

Title: Rhe RED Med format
Post by: Morgan_Moore on November 18, 2008, 06:48:25 pm
Quote from: foto-z
phone camerras didnt kill point and shoot .

I cant remember a model who had a P+S camer (models are the only 20 year olds I know!) - they all use thier phones

Quote from: foto-z
Only 5% of my advertising projects have a corresponding video made .

In 1999 only 5% of your clients would have accepted or been able to handle digital : )
Title: Rhe RED Med format
Post by: Graham Mitchell on November 18, 2008, 06:51:17 pm
Quote from: Morgan_Moore
www.volvo.co.uk rolls movie fine, vimeo works well - I dont think its that far off

That was very low quality.

Advertisers are reluctant to make sites which rely on high speed broadband, excluding many potential customers, and things have been very slow to get better. 5 years ago I thought that by now the whole world would be on 10+ Mbit connections. Back then, I had a 20 Mbit connection at my home in Sweden. I haven't seen anything much faster than that advertised even 5 years later. And plenty of people are still on really basic 128 or 256 kbit. Technology isn't racing quite as fast as some seem to say. In fact it is frustratingly slow.
Title: Rhe RED Med format
Post by: Graham Mitchell on November 18, 2008, 06:56:39 pm
Quote from: Tim Lüdin
The internet will become very fast worldwide in the next years. Finaly the internet will end up in our living rooms plugged into
our TVsets. It's gonna be full hd and from then on every one will see the real quality behind film or foto content.

This is a good example of how SLOW technology can be. HD video was first demonstrated in the 1980s, then reinvented as DVB in the 1990s and STILL has a very low market penetration. It might be another 5-10 years before the majority of homes are HD equipped, and current HD is still far from high resolution.
Title: Rhe RED Med format
Post by: Morgan_Moore on November 18, 2008, 06:59:05 pm
Quote from: foto-z
That was very low quality.

Advertisers are reluctant to make sites which rely on high speed broadband, excluding many potential customers, and things have been very slow to get better. 5 years ago I thought that by now the whole world would be on 10+ Mbit connections. Back then, I had a 20 Mbit connection at my home in Sweden. I haven't seen anything much faster than that advertised even 5 years later. And plenty of people are still on really basic 128 or 256 kbit. Technology isn't racing quite as fast as some seem to say. In fact it is frustratingly slow.

Every point you make is true right now

P+S cameras still sell
MF cameras still sell (I think)
Movies on the web are clunky
The red camera is probably over priced, over sized and crap at stills - (no face detection AF - unlike phones!)

To me what is interesting is seeing a career direction swing - away from the 2d stillshot shooters to - I dont know what "DP - director of photography" might be the phrase - "Imager" - "digital capture artist" - who knows  - Im young - you look young - we need to embrace this future not talk about now - now is boring

Its like some of the architecture guys moaning about digital rendering - they should have seen it and moved thier businesses to lead that field


S
Title: Rhe RED Med format
Post by: Tim Lüdin on November 18, 2008, 07:00:28 pm
Quote from: foto-z
That was very low quality.

Advertisers are reluctant to make sites which rely on high speed broadband, excluding many potential customers, and things have been very slow to get better. 5 years ago I thought that by now the whole world would be on 10+ Mbit connections. Back then, I had a 20 Mbit connection at my home in Sweden. I haven't seen anything much faster than that advertised even 5 years later. And plenty of people are still on really basic 128 or 256 kbit. Technology isn't racing quite as fast as some seem to say. In fact it is frustratingly slow.

You are right, not every country is so blessed with fast internet like sweden and switzerland.  
Title: Rhe RED Med format
Post by: stevephoto on November 18, 2008, 07:01:23 pm
there is nothing new going on here - you could been shooting for decades at high speed with a 35mm movie camera, telecine to digital and away you go - stills and moving images - you could have been working on print quality digital manipulation 20 years ago

anyone who has sat though movie rushes is going to know its - time time time - editing those rushes - time time time - sorting out the sound - time time time - a still shoot budget is not going to give the budget to throw in a 30 or even 10 second commercial and the budget for a commercial is looking for a whole different vibe than a print ad

sure you might get to do a commercial off the budget for a stills shoot from a cheap skate client and make a piece of crap going out on channel blah blah when no one is watching - but you are not going to want to put your name to it - sure some stills shoots have big budgets - but those budgets are going on the elements of the stills shoots - there is a lot more to commercial live action productions than the technology advances to do with a camera

if you want to shoot live action commercials etc, just get yourself a showreel together now, get a producer and become a commercials director, don't rely on a camera manufactures fantasy about coming up with  a camera in the distant future

Title: Rhe RED Med format
Post by: Morgan_Moore on November 18, 2008, 07:08:52 pm
Quote from: stevephoto
there is nothing new going on here - you could been shooting for decades at high speed with a 35mm movie camera, telecine to digital and away you go - stills and moving images - you could have been working on print quality digital manipulation 20 years ago

anyone who has sat though movie rushes is going to know its - time time time - editing those rushes - time time time - sorting out the sound - time time time - a still shoot budget is not going to give the budget to throw in a 30 or even 10 second commercial and the budget for a commercial is looking for a whole different vibe than a print ad

sure you might get to do a commercial off the budget for a stills shoot from a cheap skate client and make a piece of crap going out on channel blah blah when no one is watching - but you are not going to want to put your name to it - sure some stills shoots have big budgets - but those budgets are going on the elements of the stills shoots - there is a lot more to commercial live action productions than the technology advances to do with a camera

if you want to shoot live action commercials etc, just get yourself a showreel together now, get a producer and become a commercials director, don't rely on a camera manufactures fantasy about coming up with  a camera in the distant future

20 years ago I couldnt afford a panavision or three feet of kodachrome every second


20 years ago my clients couldnt afford $100000 for a 30s advert on one of the two TV chanels that broadcast advertising in the UK

Last time I investigated going into serious video a camera was $100000

Something is new television/movies are can now by by rather than for the masses

Indeed nothing has changed my cheapskate clients pay for crap still images - they dont hire Kate Moss and Patrick  Demarchelier - so my pictures must be crap and my clients cheapskate right ? or wrong ?

S
Title: Rhe RED Med format
Post by: stevephoto on November 18, 2008, 07:21:04 pm
Quote from: Morgan_Moore
20 years ago I couldnt afford a panavision or three feet of kodachrome every second


20 years ago my clients couldnt afford $100000 for a 30s advert on one of the two TV chanels that broadcast advertising in the UK

Last time I investigated going into serious video a camera was $100000


Something is new at both ends...

S

you rent the panavision for the shoot

the 3 feet of kodachrome gave you 3 ft of images

the cost of the advert has nothing to do with the cost of broadcasting the advert, and a video camera is not going to reduce the cost of the shoot

sorry, not sure about the 'serious video a camera for $100,000' or the other bits!
Title: Rhe RED Med format
Post by: Morgan_Moore on November 18, 2008, 07:29:36 pm
Quote from: stevephoto
you rent the panavision for the shoot

the 3 feet of kodachrome gave you 3 ft of images

the cost of the advert has nothing to do with the cost of broadcasting the advert, and a video camera is not going to reduce the cost of the shoot

not sure about the 'serious video a camera for $100,000'?

Clients who could not afford TV advertising didnt have an output for moving images - maybe a VCR in thier foyer - now they have the web - so there is/will be an output stream for footage

of course the quality will vary from great shoots for the high budget corporates (like GM ?) to shoddy material for the local pizza joint

$100,000 camera was the going rate for a broadcast BETA camera in the mid nineties - and the edit suites cost a bit more than FCP

And with the net there are no rules on what channel to watch - the success stories do not all have corporate backing

S
Title: Rhe RED Med format
Post by: stevephoto on November 18, 2008, 07:48:55 pm
Quote from: Morgan_Moore
Clients who could not afford TV advertising didnt have an output for moving images - maybe a VCR in thier foyer - now they have the web - so there is/will be an output stream for footage

of course the quality will vary from great shoots for the high budget corporates (like GM ?) to shoddy material for the local pizza joint

$100,000 camera was the going rate for a broadcast BETA camera in the mid nineties - and the edit suites cost a bit more than FCP

And with the net there are no rules on what channel to watch - the success stories do not all have corporate backing

S

its not about cost for a client, its about ROI, sure if a client can put their footage on their own site and 10 million people watch it, its going to be a cheap outlet for the client, but any other outlet is going to charge a cost relative to the exposure for the client

a broadcast camera in the nineties was not for producing commercials etc(film quality), it was for live tv,tv programmes or industrial videos - the quality was rubbish - it could actually be way cheaper to shoot on film if you had the right contacts and if it wasn't a 2 hour movie about hanging wallpaper

you rented the edit suite, it would not cost much as you rented by the hour for a few hours to put the final program together having done all the real time consuming work offline for peanuts

you would have to define success stories - most clients want certaintity - they will pay x and want y exposure - not a crap shoot - and y exposure costs relative to what you get
Title: Rhe RED Med format
Post by: jjj on November 18, 2008, 07:49:10 pm
Quote from: stevephoto
there is nothing new going on here - you could been shooting for decades at high speed with a 35mm movie camera, telecine to digital and away you go - stills and moving images - you could have been working on print quality digital manipulation 20 years ago
No it is very different as otherwise stills photographers would not exist on film sets. Also you cannot take high quality stills with a 35mm movie camera and it's actually a smaller cpture area than 35mm stills film. Then there's the expense. Now an individual photographer can actually afford to buy the best kit. Film people always rented before, due to the cost, now they buy RED kit.

Quote
anyone who has sat though movie rushes is going to know its - time time time - editing those rushes - time time time - sorting out the sound - time time time - a still shoot budget is not going to give the budget to throw in a 30 or even 10 second commercial and the budget for a commercial is looking for a whole different vibe than a print ad
Looking at it the wrong way around, you make the film and do stills at the same time.  It's not adding moving pics to a stills shoot.

Quote
sure you might get to do a commercial off the budget for a stills shoot from a cheap skate client and make a piece of crap going out on channel blah blah when no one is watching - but you are not going to want to put your name to it - sure some stills shoots have big budgets - but those budgets are going on the elements of the stills shoots - there is a lot more to commercial live action productions than the technology advances to do with a camera
Money is rapidly vanishing from advertising at present with large no.s of people in the media being laid off in the UK 2,500+ last week alone I believe. So the cheapskate client is soon going to be everybody.
The no. of clients who see they can save money by having stills and video aspects done together are only going to increase. With the advent of large flat screens everywhere [even in your local shop is playing ads whist you queue], large displays screens in shopping centres and on the London underground escalators print ads are being replaced by TV screens - which are starting to use movement within the ads, as opposed to simply doing a slideshow of the various ads.
The 'movement' has already started.
Title: Rhe RED Med format
Post by: jjj on November 18, 2008, 08:00:11 pm
Quote from: Morgan_Moore
$100,000 camera was the going rate for a broadcast BETA camera in the mid nineties - and the edit suites cost a bit more than FCP
I remember looking at edit suites at the Broadcast Show that cost £80,000 and now I can do stuff faster and better quality with my home computer with software than costs a mere £850 and that includes the editing, compositing, grading, sound and outputing software too.
Title: Rhe RED Med format
Post by: stevephoto on November 18, 2008, 08:17:52 pm
[quote name='jjj' date='Nov 18 2008, 07:49 PM' post='237994']
"No it is very different as otherwise stills photographers would not exist on film sets. Also you cannot take high quality stills with a 35mm movie camera and it's actually a smaller cpture area than 35mm stills film. Then there's the expense. Now an individual photographer can actually afford to buy the best kit. Film people always rented before, due to the cost, now they buy RED kit."

no, film is normally shot at 24/30 frames per second which works for moving images not stills, so if you want to get stills from a live action shoot, you just run the film camera at a fast enough speed

"Looking at it the wrong way around, you make the film and do stills at the same time.  It's not adding moving pics to a stills shoot."

yes of course, you have always been able to do that if you wanted with film, but you really got to think about what the live shoot is for and what the stills would be used for - you can have a stills guy on set and the stills for an ad campaign have a whole different criteria than grabbing the stills off the live action

"Money is rapidly vanishing from advertising at present with large no.s of people in the media being laid off in the UK 2,500+ last week alone I believe. So the cheapskate client is soon going to be everybody.
The no. of clients who see they can save money by having stills and video aspects done together are only going to increase. With the advent of large flat screens everywhere [even in your local shop is playing ads whist you queue], large displays screens in shopping centres and on the London underground escalators print ads are being replaced by TV screens - which are starting to use movement within the ads, as opposed to simply doing a slideshow of the various ads.
The 'movement' has already started."

clients learned to be cheapskates a long time ago, even when advertising companies tell them that the way to get through a recession and be number one at the other end - is to spend spend spend - but clients regardless of recessions always want top quality at bottom dollar price - you better make sure you are providing them with that when you turn up with your live action and your stills or they are not going to pay you and you will be eating the cost of two shoots

pa
Title: Rhe RED Med format
Post by: stevephoto on November 18, 2008, 08:25:40 pm
Quote from: jjj
I remember looking at edit suites at the Broadcast Show that cost £80,000 and now I can do stuff faster and better quality with my home computer with software than costs a mere £850 and that includes the editing, compositing, grading, sound and outputing software too.

a top end video edit suite could easily run to over 750k and that gear was not fitting under your desk, the A/C to cool it was bigger than a room, and a few hundred now gets you more and better - but you did not have to buy the edit suite to produce your programme - you just needed to rent it for a few pounds paid by the budget and the editor put the programme together as you relaxed
Title: Rhe RED Med format
Post by: jjj on November 18, 2008, 09:48:22 pm
Quote from: stevephoto
no, film is normally shot at 24/30 frames per second which works for moving images not stills...
No really!
I've worked as a stills photographer BTW and know exactly what the difference is. Doing both at the same time is that you don't even have to change cameras, nothing to do with frame grabbing.

Quote
...so if you want to get stills from a live action shoot, you just run the film camera at a fast enough speed
You seem to be confusing frame rate with shutter speed - very different! Doesn't work anyway if you do increase shutter speed, as if you up the shutter speed, then the film starts to strobe.
'Dead Set' and 'Saving Private Ryan' used high shutter speeds for effect - both times to make the situation more horrible!

Quote
yes of course, you have always been able to do that if you wanted with film,
Not frame grabbing!!
Quote
but you really got to think about what the live shoot is for and what the stills would be used for - you can have a stills guy on set and the stills for an ad campaign have a whole different criteria than grabbing the stills off the live action
It is different from film
Are you asuming that someone is incapable of doing good stills if doing filming. Plus in advertising, you often see animated[not cartoon!] versions of the still shot or variations thereof


Quote
clients learned to be cheapskates a long time ago, even when advertising companies tell them that the way to get through a recession and be number one at the other end - is to spend spend spend - but clients regardless of recessions always want top quality at bottom dollar price - you better make sure you are providing them with that when you turn up with your live action and your stills or they are not going to pay you and you will be eating the cost of two shoots
Quality in print and filming has been dropping for the fast few years. People are more accepting of shit quality images these days, heck just look how popular youtube and camera phones are.
Heck, frame grabs will look better than some of the crap I've seen used for print ads of late.
Plus why assume I or anyone else will suddenly produce crap if doing filming. It's just a different brief after all and if you are adaptable/professional, then it's not an issue.
Plus lots of us already have experience with filmmaking and when it comes to dealing with the RAW workflow, photographers will be one up on many DoPs.
Title: Rhe RED Med format
Post by: pss on November 19, 2008, 12:42:36 am
http://prolost.blogspot.com/ (http://prolost.blogspot.com/)

interesting/critical/analytical look at the red system.....

i don't think that red will revolutionize advertising photography in 2009.....but it is an indication of where things are heading.....

and when i read some of the statements here my toenails are curling under....

first: print is dead...yes it is.....i am sure there will be mags around and there are actually better magazines coming out now...but they have a completely different business model....not based on advertising/subscription....so they are great looking glossies more coffee table books then rags...they pay nothing....they actually charge you to shoot for them....the photographers have to produce the shoots to have their stuff run....consider it advertising/promo pieces...

all i can say about streaming media is that i watch amazing looking music videos and youtube content on my iphone....i stream pandora in my car...all on EDGE (yes i still have the old one) which tops out at 135kb afaik...it's all about compression and things will get better and better...

has anyone mentioned TV....that is dying as well....at least the way it is delivered....and ad budgets are cut there left and right as well....

nobody is saying that all this will change overnight....but i prefer to be in at the beginning....

and cellpones are P&S these days.....a 1mpix camera is total overkill for myspace and such and that is where most images are viewed these days....people actually are starting to ask for a more cellphone pic style....

all this does not mean that there aren't people out there doing well shooting 4x5 and 8x10 film.....find your niche....this is of course much harder in a commercial environment....

i really want someone to explain to me where MF back fit in in all this...i am talking about commercial shooting....i understand that people own them now and should be happy for a long time with the quality but who will buy one in a year form now? especially when the DSLRs are catching up and nothing new is in the pipeline for MF?

don't get me wrong.....a would really really like to have a Hy6 with a P65 back (that's actually one of the problems right there....) but i know that there is no job out there that requires it....just isn't....

technology is going places we can't even start to imagine....
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/technology/7734038.stm (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/technology/7734038.stm)
Title: Rhe RED Med format
Post by: Morgan_Moore on November 19, 2008, 02:00:15 am
Quote from: pss
i really want someone to explain to me where MF back fit in in all this...i am talking about commercial shooting....i understand that people own them now and should be happy for a long time with the quality but who will buy one in a year form now? especially when the DSLRs are catching up and nothing new is in the pipeline for MF?


http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/technology/7734038.stm (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/technology/7734038.stm)

It seems to me that when I went for a DB they had a real strong USP - DSLRs could not produce a nice magazine DPS or a file acceptable to Corbis/Getty - to shoot with a DSLR was to throw ones work in the bin

I used to shoot Nikon D1 and Mam645 at the same time - truely horrible

That really strong USP is gone now

The MF makers need to find another strong USP or they will get ten times more marginal than they are now

Of course they still have USP over DSLRs - really big files - flash synch -DOF look - view camera potential

But those USPs are marginal compared to 'getty/my client wont accept DSLR'

Without a USP they will become the tools of a tiny minority of obsessives - art guys who need 'the look' - people creating panoramic wall size installations etc

One real strength of a big file is the abilily to zoom like google earth - so there will still be a market for the chips

Maybe there will be new applications that require the quality - interactive web stuff where the users pans and scrolls around

S
Title: Rhe RED Med format
Post by: Carsten W on November 19, 2008, 03:16:01 am
Quote from: Morgan_Moore
www.volvo.co.uk rolls movie fine, vimeo works well - I dont think its that far off

S

I guess we had different experiences. I went to the Volvo site, and first of all, I had to click down two levels before finding any movies. That is how far they wanted to bury it, given the risk that impatient people simply move on before the content is there. Then I tried to view a movie for one car, but it wanted my nickname, and then didn't work. Then I went into another area, and had to wait 8 seconds before I was treated to a 15 second animated globe before really getting to the point where I could make more choices (flash).

This is far from compelling, and keep in mind that people who buy cars are going to be a lot more patient than people who buy dresses or shoes. You or I might sit down and plod through it, but TV and media have brought most people up with hopelessly short attention spans. The bandwidth is going to have to be immense to deliver such high-quality content with a maximum of 1-2 seconds delay, to make it *really* compelling.

The internet just isn't ready for this, and it will take time. I work for a company which bet large that internet bandwidth would increase fast enough to support new, more interactive content, and the idea failed dramatically, leaving us to pick up the pieces and try to find other customers for the (expensively developed) product.

You might be able to use moving shots in ads before movies in the cinemas, but then cinemas are dying, and anyway, that is already in place, so nothing new there. TV is of course also there, but where is the new place to put all the new moving shots? I don't see it yet.
Title: Rhe RED Med format
Post by: Carsten W on November 19, 2008, 03:20:06 am
Quote from: Tim Lüdin
Hey carsten, where do you live?
The internet in switzerland is very fast. We have no problem with movies etc.

I live in Germany, and have 16Mbps internet, which is plenty fast to deliver such content. The servers can't do it though, and I rarely reach even 1/16th of that throughput. In fact, asking where I live proves my point: the internet isn't ready. It should be fast everywhere (at least in the target market) before such a business model can truly fly. Otherwise we are looking at local content only.

I agree with you btw. It will come, and it will be compelling. But it is too early now. It will take at least 3-5 years, so hold off on those Red cameras for a while. The next 2 gen 35mm, MF and video will be there by then.
Title: Rhe RED Med format
Post by: Carsten W on November 19, 2008, 03:32:47 am
Here are some questions for the pros:

- How much of all your advertising work is destined for print?
- How much of that is static, ie. the subject doesn't move (apart from perhaps breathing)?
- How much interest is there currently for moving shots, and where does it end up?

Title: Rhe RED Med format
Post by: Dustbak on November 19, 2008, 04:38:03 am
About 50% of my work goes to print. The other to web. All of it is static, some of it is breathing . I do have several clients now that would like to see 360 product presentations in the near future.

Nobody has ever asked me to do video but I have to admit I have never been actively pushing that. The Netherlands is the best connected country in the World (right after Finland I believe) and video over the web is a nice gimmick for parties that want to flush a big budget but most parties are not particularly willing to flush budget for it.

Now, don't get me wrong. Moving is growing every year. It might very well be that 1 day still is just a phase of something moving, just not yet now. Which doesn't say it is not a nice niche that has big future potential.

As I pointed out in another thread and earlier in this. For me, I see much more in CGI combined with photography as a future direction.
Title: Rhe RED Med format
Post by: E_Edwards on November 19, 2008, 06:25:14 am
Absolutely in agreement about the Internet not being ready yet, also, Dustbak, I wouldn't put too much of my money on CGI, too costly for bulk, and too tiresome after a while.

100 per cent of my work is print,  often with additional usage for web. I am not interested in web photography only, too cheap and too much competition, though if things dried up elsewhere I could divert to web overnight and be just as competitive as the rest.

Photography for print will be here for many years to come. Print presses are definitely going to go digital, which will mean smaller runs, but more niche, more targeted, and more affordable, all requiring photography.
Title: Rhe RED Med format
Post by: Carsten W on November 19, 2008, 11:43:29 am
Quote from: E_Edwards
Absolutely in agreement about the Internet not being ready yet, also, Dustbak, I wouldn't put too much of my money on CGI, too costly for bulk, and too tiresome after a while.

With some limitations, I disagree. The thing is, and this is partly responsible for the increasing popularity of this path, that rendering CG+photo composites is not only viable, and most people cannot tell the difference when it is done right, but it is also the only solution in some cases, like the CAD data being ready, but the product not, or there being no product in the part of the world the shooting needs to happen in (Lamborghini in Tibet kinda thing).
Title: Rhe RED Med format
Post by: TMARK on November 19, 2008, 11:52:30 am
I believe that here in the US one of the big infrastucture products, which will be used to "prime the pump" and drag us out of recession, will be creating a viable super-broadband infrastucture.  Look for something that will surpass the Netherlands in (proposed) scope.  This may give us the bandwidth that is needed for much faster internet speeds.

In any case, the future is now.  Red Epic or no Red Epic.  This whole thread is like a white paper on where things are going and where they are. When we shoot videos for instore displays (50" 1080P) I end up booking a stills shoot from it.  We end up recreating what we shot for motion a week later but with different lighting (strobe), using a Canon.  Clients are starting to see the savings from hanging a stills shoot on the end of the primary video production.  Not just BBDO and Wieden Kennedy see this.  The visual merchandizing people at Diesel and DKNY see this. The inhouse people at Verizon see it clear as day.  

On this board I see people putting up roadblocks, finding excuses.  If you stand still (no pun intended) the market is going to RUN YOU OVER like one of those crappy trams in Talinn.  Not to say stills shooters will be no more, but you will be marginalized to the point of, well, insolvency.  I think this should be taken as warning.

PSS:  you are so right.  Print is dead as far as providing a sizeable income for photographers not on retainer for Vogue.  The new high quality glossies are as you say, like coffee table books.  The French magazines have been doing this since at least the '80's.  There is something that is just luxurious about a printed mag in the silicone tft lcd world.  But circulation is low, they don't rely on ad rates anyway, they are expensive, and you have to pay, not only for production, but a share of printing and the mags admin costs.  I'm OK with this.  Its a great promo piece and it lets you get your creative freak-on, but its not commercial work.  

Exciting times.
Title: Rhe RED Med format
Post by: gwhitf on November 19, 2008, 12:03:04 pm
This is a subscription article, but you can get the gist of it in the Preview:

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB122705787917439625.html (http://online.wsj.com/article/SB122705787917439625.html)
Title: Rhe RED Med format
Post by: jjj on November 19, 2008, 01:38:10 pm
Quote from: Dustbak
As I pointed out in another thread and earlier in this. For me, I see much more in CGI combined with photography as a future direction.
I've thought for a long time now that CGI will replace a lot of product photography and it's already starting to happen. You'll get craftsmen doing lovely work in it just as you get photographers doing nice stuff now [and vice versa]. The work will still be there, just it'll be done by someone with a different skillset. I believe car manufacturers already use CGI models ready 'built' to be slotted into location shots.
Title: Rhe RED Med format
Post by: E_Edwards on November 19, 2008, 02:11:18 pm
Quote from: TMARK
PSS:  you are so right.  Print is dead as far as providing a sizeable income for photographers not on retainer for Vogue.


I think you may be generalising a little. I've never had more print work in my life, and I'm just about to sign a contract to photograph thousands of items completely out of my field of expertise. I think good contacts and networking is what it's all about. Of course, this may well evaporate, but  I've heard the same stories so many times over the years about the end of photography, no work, etc. that you have to take it all with a pinch of salt. Some areas have no doubt suffered incredibly, but likewise, other areas have bloomed.

As for the store LCD displays... they may well take off, but from what I've recently seen on my trip to NY, very few stores had them, or if they did, I didn't notice (which defeats the whole purpose). Incidentally, I found that shop and store displays are generally behind what you find in Europe. Even Tiffany's once notorious window displays were looking a bit staid. I lingered outside for a while, but no-one was looking at them anyway, have we become so immune?  Going to the Apple store nor far from there was akin to torture, I asked one of the guys in turquoise t-shirt about a particular Mac and he seemed a bit clueless, but he was well rehearsed in trying to sell me the Apple care policy.


Edward
Title: Rhe RED Med format
Post by: E_Edwards on November 19, 2008, 02:31:33 pm
Quote from: jjj
I've thought for a long time now that CGI will replace a lot of product photography and it's already starting to happen. You'll get craftsmen doing lovely work in it just as you get photographers doing nice stuff now [and vice versa]. The work will still be there, just it'll be done by someone with a different skillset. I believe car manufacturers already use CGI models ready 'built' to be slotted into location shots.

Yes, I agree.

But it will still be niche, as not everything translates well. There is cost effectiveness and there is also aesthetics to consider.

To me, CGI photography often looks just too perfect, something that may be good in certain cases, but in many other cases it lacks soul.

The thing about photography is that it's often the imperfections that make things real or desirable. The unexpected play of light as it hits a surface and rebounds, the depth, the blurriness, the specular reflections, the magic and the vision and sensitivity of the photographer are all qualities that many CGI photos are sadly lacking.

True, you could recreate a lot of that with plenty of time, knowledge and budget...but why not go and shoot it for real in the first place. In the great majority of cases, it will be cheaper, quicker and honest.

And it may even have soul. Now, what on earth does that mean!
Title: Rhe RED Med format
Post by: TMARK on November 19, 2008, 03:13:37 pm
Quote from: E_Edwards
I think you may be generalising a little. I've never had more print work in my life, and I'm just about to sign a contract to photograph thousands of items completely out of my field of expertise. I think good contacts and networking is what it's all about. Of course, this may well evaporate, but  I've heard the same stories so many times over the years about the end of photography, no work, etc. that you have to take it all with a pinch of salt. Some areas have no doubt suffered incredibly, but likewise, other areas have bloomed.

As for the store LCD displays... they may well take off, but from what I've recently seen on my trip to NY, very few stores had them, or if they did, I didn't notice (which defeats the whole purpose). Incidentally, I found that shop and store displays are generally behind what you find in Europe. Even Tiffany's once notorious window displays were looking a bit staid. I lingered outside for a while, but no-one was looking at them anyway, have we become so immune?  Going to the Apple store nor far from there was akin to torture, I asked one of the guys in turquoise t-shirt about a particular Mac and he seemed a bit clueless, but he was well rehearsed in trying to sell me the Apple care policy.


Edward

I was not generalizing I just wasn't clear.  I'm addressing people photography, be it fashion, beauty, portraits, etc. for advertising.

As to your NYC trip, I have news for people who don't live here:  NYC is like the third world, but with good basic governmental services.  Also remember that the people who pump a few billion into the local economy are not getting big bonuses this year.  The fear, retrenchment and loathing is palpable. The displays aren't great this year.  There may be flagship stores on 5th etc., but my clients get expirimental with their new stores, not the old ones that have a long and inflexible lease, and strong year on year sales.  Been to Honolulu lately?  Vegas?  Check out the DKNY stores in those cities.  Check out the Milan Diesel store.  Big displays, innovative use of video and display technology.  The large roll up LCD's are really, really amazing.  That will bring some change when they finally hit the market.  

Did you see all the motion on display in NYC?  Duane Reede strores? Many have LCD's.  The Subway has LCD motion ads, big low res things.  2/3 train entrance at Wall and William, a few on 23rd street, F I believe.  Bryant Park, too.  Over at the World Financial Center all of the businesses run their own promo videos on big LCDs.  I'm seeing individual brand displays running motion on small LCD's on the shelf, when previously it would have been a print ad, poster type thing.  In Wal-Mart, (that's right, Wal-Mart! In CT) they have lots of little video's running, promoting their specials.  Lots of motion graphics.  Nike store?  PowerHouse Books?  They all have motion stuff that can be grouped into the "In Store" catagory.  

Sorry about your Apple store experience, I guess.
Title: Rhe RED Med format
Post by: E_Edwards on November 19, 2008, 03:25:47 pm
Quote from: TMARK
I was not generalizing I just wasn't clear.  I'm addressing people photography, be it fashion, beauty, portraits, etc. for advertising.

As to your NYC trip, I have news for people who don't live here:  NYC is like the third world, but with good basic governmental services.  Also remember that the people who pump a few billion into the local economy are not getting big bonuses this year.  The fear, retrenchment and loathing is palpable. The displays aren't great this year.  There may be flagship stores on 5th etc., but my clients get expirimental with their new stores, not the old ones that have a long and inflexible lease, and strong year on year sales.  Been to Honolulu lately?  Vegas?  Check out the DKNY stores in those cities.  Check out the Milan Diesel store.  Big displays, innovative use of video and display technology.  The large roll up LCD's are really, really amazing.  That will bring some change when they finally hit the market.  

Sorry about your Apple store experience, I guess.

What you are telling me is that NY is not as Hi Tech as other parts of the US. I must travel more! The Apple store service is almost as chaotic here in London, so nothing new.
Title: Rhe RED Med format
Post by: TMARK on November 19, 2008, 03:47:06 pm
Quote from: E_Edwards
What you are telling me is that NY is not as Hi Tech as other parts of the US. I must travel more! The Apple store service is almost as chaotic here in London, so nothing new.

The newer cities are hi tech. Did you ride the Subway here?  It is essentially the same as it was in 1980, with a few exceptions!
Title: Rhe RED Med format
Post by: pss on November 19, 2008, 04:01:37 pm
just got off the phone with a friend of mine from NY.....got called to shoot again for an unnamed conde nast publication we all know very well.....he was prepared to have his budget cut but they cut it 50% across the board...his agent brought it up a bit from that but this is the status these days.....and don't forget that the people handing out the jobs are worried as well because it saves a lot of money to cut jobs.....and budgets....

either way, i am sure we will survive, but all this is just an indication of a changing market and imo it is better to adapt early on....i am a still shooter but shooting clips instead of stills would not bother me at all....that does not mean that i have to become a director overnight....which actually would not be so bad either....
Title: Rhe RED Med format
Post by: jjj on November 19, 2008, 04:15:18 pm
Quote from: TMARK
The newer cities are hi tech. Did you ride the Subway here?  It is essentially the same as it was in 1980, with a few exceptions!
....the people riding it are 28 yrs older!
Title: Rhe RED Med format
Post by: E_Edwards on November 19, 2008, 04:18:29 pm
Quote from: TMARK
The newer cities are hi tech. Did you ride the Subway here?  It is essentially the same as it was in 1980, with a few exceptions!

This time we used taxis all the time. The previous time, we got really scared on the subway when we ended up at a station and there was no-one around, all we could hear were distant echoes of footsteps coming our way and fearing we would get robbed or attacked, just as it happens in the movies!

B&H seemed to have moved everything to the first floor. Still a great store, you are so lucky to have it, my daughter was fascinated by all the orthodox jews in there! Shops have more assistants per capita than in the UK and strangely for a big city like NY, we found the majority of people quite friendly and chatty. Apart from the Apple store which was geared for cattle, we found service was miles better than in the UK, but we found that adding 15, 18 or even 20 per cent to every restaurant bill was a little too much.

I was told by a friend who has worked in both countries that US advertising, design and branding agency fees are quite a bit lower in the States. I have a feeling that you probably have to work harder and push yourselves harder as photographers over there.
Title: Rhe RED Med format
Post by: Morgan_Moore on November 19, 2008, 05:20:02 pm
I know this is very off the original topic but I just bought a B when I wanted an A

Given a better representation of the two products 3 d or a movie I woulnd t have made that error  ( B has no thread on the back side ) I would have taken the time to watch it irrelevant of bandwidth !


SMM

Title: Rhe RED Med format
Post by: TMARK on November 19, 2008, 09:01:12 pm
Quote from: E_Edwards
This time we used taxis all the time. The previous time, we got really scared on the subway when we ended up at a station and there was no-one around, all we could hear were distant echoes of footsteps coming our way and fearing we would get robbed or attacked, just as it happens in the movies!

B&H seemed to have moved everything to the first floor. Still a great store, you are so lucky to have it, my daughter was fascinated by all the orthodox jews in there! Shops have more assistants per capita than in the UK and strangely for a big city like NY, we found the majority of people quite friendly and chatty. Apart from the Apple store which was geared for cattle, we found service was miles better than in the UK, but we found that adding 15, 18 or even 20 per cent to every restaurant bill was a little too much.

I was told by a friend who has worked in both countries that US advertising, design and branding agency fees are quite a bit lower in the States. I have a feeling that you probably have to work harder and push yourselves harder as photographers over there.

Crime in NYC is minimal.  It can be creepy, all alone in a subway station, but the odds of being assaulted are lower than in London, Berlin, Paris, LA, Chicago, etc.  


Title: Rhe RED Med format
Post by: Dustbak on November 20, 2008, 01:34:46 am
Quote from: Morgan_Moore
I know this is very off the original topic but I just bought a B when I wanted an A

Given a better representation of the two products 3 d or a movie I woulnd t have made that error  ( B has no thread on the back side ) I would have taken the time to watch it irrelevant of bandwidth !


SMM

That is exactly the type of requests I am getting more lately.
Title: Rhe RED Med format
Post by: Morgan_Moore on November 20, 2008, 01:52:14 am
Quote from: Dustbak
That is exactly the type of requests I am getting more lately.

Do you have a method ?

interestingly for products the is no need for a movie camera

I have been experimenting with putting a product tripod and taking 180 still frames of it as it is rotated through 360 degrees (not enough)

I use the degree markers on the tripod

To do it 'properly' the product should be stationary and the camera should move - but that calls for some very fancy jib or suchlike

These can then be merged into Quicktime Pro to make a short movie

Using a stills camera one can use strobe of course for each frame and pull focus if required

I shot 4000 frames on my D3 in a short time - and then thought about shutter life

I will use my redundant d80 for future experimentation - the D80 is of course Red quality  '3k'

I was buying more A/Bs to help rig such experiments by the way !

Hoizontal pans can be made using software : motion in FCP (final cut) - what you need for that is a nice wide piture shot on a high quality camera that has many times 1910 pixels width - an MFDB for instance


S
Title: Rhe RED Med format
Post by: Dustbak on November 20, 2008, 02:46:43 am
Nope, no best practice yet. Experiencing the same kind of stuff as you. Messing around wit VRWorx amongst other things. Maybe Flash would be better but there is already so much software to master.
Title: Rhe RED Med format
Post by: Carsten W on November 20, 2008, 10:29:30 am
Quote from: TMARK
Crime in NYC is minimal.  It can be creepy, all alone in a subway station, but the odds of being assaulted are lower than in London, Berlin, Paris, LA, Chicago, etc.

New York City less than Berlin? Have you been to Berlin? I don't believe it, sorry.
Title: Rhe RED Med format
Post by: gwhitf on November 20, 2008, 10:40:55 am
Quote from: carstenw
New York City less than Berlin? Have you been to Berlin? I don't believe it, sorry.

Ha! I went into the subway system in Berlin, and they don't even have TURNSTILES! It's based on the Honor System, and oddly, it works. I was shocked. Elegant train systems, and just walk down the steps and get on the train! My jaw dropped.

I was told they have monitors on the trains that check your tickets, randomly. Not sure though what the punishment is if you get caught. (If caught, maybe they force you to sell your Phase back and buy a Sinar, but that would be too harsh I guess).
Title: Rhe RED Med format
Post by: thsinar on November 20, 2008, 11:01:18 am
gwhitf,

be cautious, I have been almost condemned to hell in another thread, for having dared to mention the name Sinar and trying to sell "my" products in a thread which wasn't about it.
I wouldn't push this brand too much.

 

Thierry


Quote from: gwhitf
If caught, maybe they force you to sell your Phase back and buy a Sinar, but that would be too harsh I guess.
Title: Rhe RED Med format
Post by: gwhitf on November 20, 2008, 11:28:03 am
.
Title: Rhe RED Med format
Post by: TMARK on November 20, 2008, 11:37:54 am
Quote from: carstenw
New York City less than Berlin? Have you been to Berlin? I don't believe it, sorry.

Yup, I've been to Berlin.  Lived there in the early and 90's.  Haven't been back in 10 years or so.  In '91 I saw a Vietnamese street vender get his head bashed in with a paveing stone on the U Bahn.  I also saw a Bordsteinbeissen event in Kreutzberg.  Communist skinheads versus Nazi skinheads.  Berlin in those days had the vibe of Weimar.  I thought I would wake up one morning and read that Rosa Luxemberg's body washed up in the Spree or the Landwehr Kanal.  I saw 15 or so young Gastarbeiter attempt to rape two young punk rock street girls in Kreuzberg.  I saw a train conducter slap an old lady on the U Bahn.  I'm sure its changed, but in those days it was sketch city, maybe less dangerous than New York in the 1990's but still edgy. Back in the early 90's in London the tube was freaky.  There was some guy who was raping boys and young men and then stabbing them. I would ride the tube with my Nikons and a knife.  I was all set to back someone with my F4.

New York now is really very safe. The police are efficient.  Crime underground is the lowest its been since the 1950's.  The key, like anywhere I suppose, is don't hang out underground alone in bad parts of town, which means parts of the Bronx, small parts of Harlem, most of Queens, and deep deep Brooklyn.  Also keep in mind that there are always people out and about.  Its always crowded in most stations where you might want to go.
Title: Rhe RED Med format
Post by: jing q on November 20, 2008, 02:28:07 pm
Quote from: TMARK
Yup, I've been to Berlin.  Lived there in the early and 90's.  Haven't been back in 10 years or so.  In '91 I saw a Vietnamese street vender get his head bashed in with a paveing stone on the U Bahn.  I also saw a Bordsteinbeissen event in Kreutzberg.  Communist skinheads versus Nazi skinheads.  Berlin in those days had the vibe of Weimar.  I thought I would wake up one morning and read that Rosa Luxemberg's body washed up in the Spree or the Landwehr Kanal.  I saw 15 or so young Gastarbeiter attempt to rape two young punk rock street girls in Kreuzberg.  I saw a train conducter slap an old lady on the U Bahn.  I'm sure its changed, but in those days it was sketch city, maybe less dangerous than New York in the 1990's but still edgy. Back in the early 90's in London the tube was freaky.  There was some guy who was raping boys and young men and then stabbing them. I would ride the tube with my Nikons and a knife.  I was all set to back someone with my F4.

New York now is really very safe. The police are efficient.  Crime underground is the lowest its been since the 1950's.  The key, like anywhere I suppose, is don't hang out underground alone in bad parts of town, which means parts of the Bronx, small parts of Harlem, most of Queens, and deep deep Brooklyn.  Also keep in mind that there are always people out and about.  Its always crowded in most stations where you might want to go.

yeah new york is pretty safe. I used to walk back home around 4am after clubbing, no problems.
You'll find more problems with the smaller scale non violent crimes like weird people trying to cheat your money....con-men everywhere!

Title: Rhe RED Med format
Post by: thsinar on November 20, 2008, 08:03:56 pm
I am effectively and slowly thinking that it's showing more courage to hang around here currently, than in the soon-to-be in civil war or military-coup-prone Thailand!
May I collect my Award while still alive?

 

Thierry


Quote from: gwhitf
You and Yair and Steve all share The Courage Award lately. Just for hanging in there. Why don't you go pounce on Laforet for his sole suggestion for 2009: "do not buy a medium format back. Keep your cash".
Title: Rhe RED Med format
Post by: Carsten W on November 21, 2008, 05:11:54 am
Quote from: TMARK
Yup, I've been to Berlin.  Lived there in the early and 90's.  Haven't been back in 10 years or so.  In '91 I saw a Vietnamese street vender get his head bashed in with a paveing stone on the U Bahn.  I also saw a Bordsteinbeissen event in Kreutzberg.  Communist skinheads versus Nazi skinheads.  Berlin in those days had the vibe of Weimar.  I thought I would wake up one morning and read that Rosa Luxemberg's body washed up in the Spree or the Landwehr Kanal.  I saw 15 or so young Gastarbeiter attempt to rape two young punk rock street girls in Kreuzberg.  I saw a train conducter slap an old lady on the U Bahn.  I'm sure its changed, but in those days it was sketch city, maybe less dangerous than New York in the 1990's but still edgy. Back in the early 90's in London the tube was freaky.  There was some guy who was raping boys and young men and then stabbing them. I would ride the tube with my Nikons and a knife.  I was all set to back someone with my F4.

New York now is really very safe. The police are efficient.  Crime underground is the lowest its been since the 1950's.  The key, like anywhere I suppose, is don't hang out underground alone in bad parts of town, which means parts of the Bronx, small parts of Harlem, most of Queens, and deep deep Brooklyn.  Also keep in mind that there are always people out and about.  Its always crowded in most stations where you might want to go.

Sounds like fascinating times, in a brutal kind of way. I have been living here for 7 years now, and it doesn't even resemble your description, and certainly doesn't belong in the same sentence as London or Paris, two much more dangerous cities, never mind even more dangerous American cities like L.A. or Chicago. I think Berlin is about as dangerous as Copenhagen these days

Btw, I am not saying that NYC is dangerous, just that Berlin is a gentle lamb among cities these days. Sure, stuff happens, but very rarely does anything serious happen.
Title: Rhe RED Med format
Post by: Gigi on November 21, 2008, 11:57:35 am
Quote from: carstenw
Sounds like fascinating times, in a brutal kind of way. I have been living here for 7 years now, and it doesn't even resemble your description, and certainly doesn't belong in the same sentence as London or Paris, two much more dangerous cities, never mind even more dangerous American cities like L.A. or Chicago. I think Berlin is about as dangerous as Copenhagen these days

Btw, I am not saying that NYC is dangerous, just that Berlin is a gentle lamb among cities these days. Sure, stuff happens, but very rarely does anything serious happen.

Living in CHicago for some 20+ years, I have a hard time calling it dangerous. I see single women by former housing projects, waiting at night for the bus (no not for that other stuff, mind your manners), safely. Never would have happened 15 years ago. No incidents, etc. So who knows what is safe and what is not? Does it have to do with knowing the town, and where to go and not to go?

Geoff
Title: Rhe RED Med format
Post by: Morgan_Moore on November 21, 2008, 01:50:52 pm
red digital camera anyone ?
Title: Rhe RED Med format
Post by: gwhitf on November 21, 2008, 07:25:49 pm
I take it all back, Big Cooter. This is pretty sweet:

http://video.nytimes.com/video/2008/11/21/.../immersion.html (http://video.nytimes.com/video/2008/11/21/magazine/1194833565213/immersion.html)

Supposedly shot with the Red. (Not that that matters, on the web). But my point is: video has its place, if the concept (and lighting) is right. And in this piece, it certainly is.
Title: Rhe RED Med format
Post by: Morgan_Moore on November 22, 2008, 12:17:07 am
Quote from: gwhitf
I take it all back, Big Cooter. This is pretty sweet:

http://video.nytimes.com/video/2008/11/21/.../immersion.html (http://video.nytimes.com/video/2008/11/21/magazine/1194833565213/immersion.html)

Supposedly shot with the Red. (Not that that matters, on the web). But my point is: video has its place, if the concept (and lighting) is right. And in this piece, it certainly is.

So is that a 'stronger' 'piece of art' than some still photos of the same subject - which would be interesting too - I would suggest if a screen is the medium of delivery - maybe..
Title: Rhe RED Med format
Post by: paulmoorestudio on November 24, 2008, 02:32:30 pm
Quote from: Morgan_Moore
So is that a 'stronger' 'piece of art' than some still photos of the same subject - which would be interesting too - I would suggest if a screen is the medium of delivery - maybe..

still screen shots for this ran in this last sunday's ny times magazine.. spread landscapes - looked very good to me..there is no way I would have thought this was a still from a video..
 it is not a high glossy magazine but I got the drift and they worked.. saw some weird stuff but not sure if it was the printing.
paul
Title: Rhe RED Med format
Post by: pss on November 25, 2008, 12:22:02 pm
RED (http://reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?t=22754)

i guess all our posts were a little premature....new announcement dec 3rd....which will blow the old announcement out of the water....
i can't wait for the jan announcement....i had a feeling timetravel is possible....
Title: Rhe RED Med format
Post by: yodelyo on November 25, 2008, 05:25:19 pm
Quote from: pss
RED (http://reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?t=22754)

i guess all our posts were a little premature....new announcement dec 3rd....which will blow the old announcement out of the water....
i can't wait for the jan announcement....i had a feeling timetravel is possible....


wow, I just went thru that thread..... seems like most of the pundits are expecting a new breakthru in Dynamic range but there all just guessing. I do not shoot motion picture but planning on starting as soon as I can get a scarlet, for some reason the 5DII is not as appealing to me..... anyway, the one thing truly apparent with the Red company is that ALL of their customers love the product, the owner, and anything related. Like the best customer service ever.... this should wake the crap out of Phase because that has been my biggest complaint with them.
Title: Rhe RED Med format
Post by: juicy on November 25, 2008, 06:59:23 pm
Quote from: pss
RED (http://reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?t=22754)

i guess all our posts were a little premature....new announcement dec 3rd....which will blow the old announcement out of the water....
i can't wait for the jan announcement....i had a feeling timetravel is possible....

RED is interesting.
What is not interesting is 300+ posts without any real info about anything   and one post that announces that there will be future announcements  .  
 
Title: Rhe RED Med format
Post by: Juanito on November 26, 2008, 12:24:11 pm
Here's a question: How does this setup handle verticals? Most of my commercial work is vertical (full page ads and all) but video is a horizontal medium. Does this mean that we give up vertical?

John
Title: Rhe RED Med format
Post by: Morgan_Moore on November 26, 2008, 12:30:08 pm
Quote from: Juanito
Here's a question: How does this setup handle verticals? Most of my commercial work is vertical (full page ads and all) but video is a horizontal medium. Does this mean that we give up vertical?

John

who says video is a horizontal medium ?

ok most screens are horizonatal but many web pages may require (moving) vertical images

how does it handle it - you turn it on its side

now you are going to need real quality to crop a vertical still out of a 16:9 frame - Red 10k ?

and the lens look will be all wrong unless the sensor is Huuuge

S
Title: Rhe RED Med format
Post by: yaya on November 27, 2008, 08:13:23 am
Quote from: Morgan_Moore
who says video is a horizontal medium ?

ok most screens are horizonatal but many web pages may require (moving) vertical images

how does it handle it - you turn it on its side

now you are going to need real quality to crop a vertical still out of a 16:9 frame - Red 10k ?

and the lens look will be all wrong unless the sensor is Huuuge

S

Does anyone know a video camera that records vertical motion? So if I turn it on it's side will I get vertical recording?
Title: Rhe RED Med format
Post by: Graeme Nattress on November 27, 2008, 08:25:47 am
People will shoot for cropped verticals at 1080i or 720p from RED 4k footage:http://www.mammothhd.com/MHD_compformat2.html but there's nothing to stop you turning your camera through 90 degrees. That is often done for shooting a standing actor against a green screen to get much resolution for a better key.

Graeme
Title: Rhe RED Med format
Post by: yaya on November 27, 2008, 08:36:14 am
Quote from: Graeme Nattress
People will shoot for cropped verticals at 1080i or 720p from RED 4k footage:http://www.mammothhd.com/MHD_compformat2.html but there's nothing to stop you turning your camera through 90 degrees. That is often done for shooting a standing actor against a green screen to get much resolution for a better key.

Graeme

Thanks Graeme for the info it shows you how little I know about video....from all the P&S stills cameras and the small videocams I've used I could never record vertical videos, as if the sensor is always read in one orientation and the file/ frames stay sideways...
Title: Rhe RED Med format
Post by: jjj on November 27, 2008, 09:43:53 am
I saw a video online a few days back that was vertical. No reason when shooting for web why that cannot be done as web video is usually way smaller than monitor anyway.
Title: Rhe RED Med format
Post by: jjj on November 27, 2008, 09:47:02 am
Quote from: yaya
Thanks Graeme for the info it shows you how little I know about video....from all the P&S stills cameras and the small videocams I've used I could never record vertical videos, as if the sensor is always read in one orientation and the file/ frames stay sideways...
The video will record vertically no problem. It's just that playback is only ever horizontal, so unless you then turn video in an editing package it will play on it's side.
Title: Rhe RED Med format
Post by: Graeme Nattress on November 27, 2008, 09:50:01 am
Vertically oriented plasmas are often used for venue playback.

Graeme
Title: Rhe RED Med format
Post by: yaya on November 27, 2008, 10:08:43 am
Quote from: jjj
The video will record vertically no problem. It's just that playback is only ever horizontal, so unless you then turn video in an editing package it will play on it's side.

How long does it take to turn a 2 minutes HD clip so that it's playback runs viertically on a reasonable hardware/ software package?
Title: Rhe RED Med format
Post by: eronald on November 27, 2008, 07:20:49 pm
Quote from: Graeme Nattress
Vertically oriented plasmas are often used for venue playback.

Graeme

Fashion is typically filmed vertically I think, as it is played back vertically on rotated large screens in boutiques.

Edmund
Title: Rhe RED Med format
Post by: samuel_js on November 27, 2008, 08:45:58 pm
This is how this RED thing is so revolutionary? You already need workarounds to shoot a vertical still...  

So how do you shoot vertical with a videocamera? Let's say you're filming a portrait. If you turn the camera to the left, does the LCD turn the image to the right to show the correct orientation? What if you are left handed?.....
Title: Rhe RED Med format
Post by: jjj on December 01, 2008, 06:36:47 am
Quote from: yaya
How long does it take to turn a 2 minutes HD clip so that it's playback runs viertically on a reasonable hardware/ software package?
How long  is a piece of string?!  
And here's an alternative and better answer.
Quote from: eronald
Fashion is typically filmed vertically I think, as it is played back vertically on rotated large screens in boutiques.

But why are you shooting vertically? Unless you do so with a view to showing on vertical screens, you simply get an image in centre of your widescreen display with blank screen estate to either side. Is this preferable to learning how to compose with a horizontal remit?
Title: Rhe RED Med format
Post by: jjj on December 01, 2008, 06:40:10 am
Quote from: samuel_js
So how do you shoot vertical with a videocamera? Let's say you're filming a portrait. If you turn the camera to the left, does the LCD turn the image to the right to show the correct orientation? What if you are left handed?.....
How is that any different from using a still camera?  

It's only those shooting tethered and viewing on a monitor that will see an image at 90 degrees to normal. But you can always set monitors to vertical orientation.
You will simply see your vertical subject in the correct orientation in viewfinder.
Title: Rhe RED Med format
Post by: Graham Mitchell on December 01, 2008, 09:49:17 am
Quote from: samuel_js
This is how this RED thing is so revolutionary?

For shooting stills, it isn't. And, it will be much more expensive for similar resolution than MFDB. I'm still trying to understand why some people seem to be going crazy and predicting the end of MF digital.
Title: Rhe RED Med format
Post by: bcooter on December 01, 2008, 11:25:42 am
Quote from: foto-z
For shooting stills, it isn't. And, it will be much more expensive for similar resolution than MFDB. I'm still trying to understand why some people seem to be going crazy and predicting the end of MF digital.


you can personally dislike the thought of a hybrid camera that shoots video and stills, but in regards to red as a company and the product they have produced to date you can't dismiss them.   red seems to be well funded and has delivered something that in the cinema world their film competitors haven't.  don't underestimate the word "delivered".

you also can't dismiss the fact that they have come at the industry with a different mindset, working direct with customers rather than through the traditional distributor-dealer-customer system.

if any medium format company had sold as many top end complete systems as red has in the past year, there would be dozens of press releases and dancing on the roofs in Denmark, Switzerland, Sweden and Israel.

every photographer probably should take a hard look at the way the images for commerce industry is going.  A few years ago a 22mpx still camera back (sans body and lenses) went for $30,000 (U.S.), now with nikon, sony and canon's recent cameras, that price for 22 mpx varies from $3,000 to $7,000.  

it's not that current medium format cameras are bad or don't fit  a niche, but since they seem to be rooted in the same high megapixel, low iso still capture only catagory, that niche stands a good chance of becoming smaller.

red has also looked at the image making industry in a very non traditional manner.  first they produced a equivalent digital cinema camera, next planned is a series of hybrids that cover still and motion.  what is amazing is they have done this starting with a clean sheet of paper, not caught in the traditional trappings of film cameras, other than lens mount, which in many ways makes the red the ultimate open source system.

since new york is the mecca for all commerce, talk to any rental house or studio and ask them how many medium format backs they rent today vs. a year ago, (or for that matter just ask them how business is in general) .  just read these forums and see how someone like t-mark's business has grown by offering motion imagery through the red and step back and ask yourself this question.

if you were going to invest $40,000 today on a high end imaging system would you continue with a stills only medium format back and camera.

for you, probably so because you are obviously brand and product centric, but for many photographers the prospects of a stills only world (especially a low iso, slow to work still camera system) the prospects are looking more limited by the day.  for the same photographers saying they will only use one brand of camera, one format, regardless of the genre would be economic and artistic suicide.

you just don't have to look too far to understand that even prior to the current economic challenges, traditional media (print and broadcast) has been hit hard by computer use and the computer is the supreme medium for interactivity.

by all reports  print and broadcast advertising is down while interactive advertising is still showing growth.  

you also don't have to look far to see some form of motion and interactive images on just about any major merchandisers web site, in store, or on the street.  4 years ago times square was the place for huge moving imagery flashing by in real time and today, every city has it.

some photographers are finally going to realize that they are image makers (and business people as well as artists) and use cameras like the red and the 5dII as a way to expand their vision and their reach.  that's the plan of any business, large or small.  

others are going to stay in their current segment and not be affected by any technological change.  for a few this will work, for most it wont'.

if your annie, working on projects where the styling budget alone is in the large 6 figure range your probably good staying with  stills.  for the mere mortals, you will probably have to plan your equipment investments wisely and not look at what they can do for you today, but what you can offer tomorrow, turning a blind eye to the traditional format, or name on the camera.
Title: Rhe RED Med format
Post by: dkeyes on December 02, 2008, 02:15:50 pm
Looks like a great line-up of video cameras (for the pro with cash).
Looks like a mediocre line-up of stills cameras (if you consider price/performance ratio, handling, features, etc., etc.)

For: video pros (who may also need a still)

Not for: photographers (who may need occasional video).

As with any "all-in-one" tool, they rarely excel at everything but may excel at somethings.
Title: Rhe RED Med format
Post by: Jimbob2 on December 22, 2008, 03:43:34 pm
Comment about Monstro 6x17am sensor.

I have no doubt that the RED camera works well as an alternative to 35mm movie film camera.  The red camera has a loyal following and apparently works well.  

That been said, I kinda doubt that a small company (like Red) can produce a 60mmx170mm digital CMOS sensor when the big companies (like Dalsa, Kodak, Canon, and Sony) have not yet achieved half of this size.  It's admirable that they "plan" to produce this camera, but so far the largest sensor that company has sold is a 24.4mm x 13.7mm.  The 60mm x 170mm format is 30 times the size of their present offerings.  Many satellite & telescope companies have experience making large sensors, but the largest is about 100megapixel to date.


I will purchase one of these cameras if they are made, but I sincerely doubt the 6x17cm sensor will be created by red for many years to come.

Thanks for reading my comment.
Title: Rhe RED Med format
Post by: Graeme Nattress on December 22, 2008, 03:57:01 pm
I fully understand the skepticism over the 617 sensor. I also remember how RED was told that the original RED One was impossible, couldn't be done, couldn't be made, wouldn't work etc. I'm, looking forwards to seeing what you shoot with it when you get it though! Thanks,

Graeme
Title: Rhe RED Med format
Post by: Jonathan Wienke on December 23, 2008, 04:48:58 am
Quote from: jjj
The video will record vertically no problem. It's just that playback is only ever horizontal, so unless you then turn video in an editing package it will play on it's side.

And of course, it is unthinkable and impossible to leave the video as-shot and simply mount the display monitor vertically...

Sometimes the simplest solutions are the best.
Title: Rhe RED Med format
Post by: Imaginara on December 23, 2008, 05:11:53 am
Quote from: Jonathan Wienke
And of course, it is unthinkable and impossible to leave the video as-shot and simply mount the display monitor vertically...

Sometimes the simplest solutions are the best.


What! A simple solution to a problem! how dare you!

I actually did that yesterday when shooting with an old M11 Precision back. it doesnt have any autorotationsensorthingie ... so instead of having the client break their neck i simply flipped the macbook i was shooting to on the side

There are swivels you can mount a display on aswell to make it easy to flip between vertical and horisontal
Title: Rhe RED Med format
Post by: dergiman on December 23, 2008, 05:12:06 am
Quote from: Jonathan Wienke
And of course, it is unthinkable and impossible to leave the video as-shot and simply mount the display monitor vertically...

Sometimes the simplest solutions are the best.

yes, and it would be so nice to edit the footage on a rotated screen, so that final cut pro is flipped to the side, what a nightmare.
Title: Rhe RED Med format
Post by: Carsten W on December 23, 2008, 09:43:27 am
Quote from: dergiman
yes, and it would be so nice to edit the footage on a rotated screen, so that final cut pro is flipped to the side, what a nightmare.

It is easy to get consumers to rotate their TVs 90 degrees as well, and the same goes for cinemas... Wait...
Title: Rhe RED Med format
Post by: Imaginara on December 23, 2008, 10:44:50 am
Quote from: carstenw
It is easy to get consumers to rotate their TVs 90 degrees as well, and the same goes for cinemas... Wait...

Well rotated video is not for public consumer use but rather for video advertisement stands and billboards  

And you wouldn't edit it on a rotated screen but rather on a normal screen, and just rotate the preview display.

No more eggnog!
Title: Rhe RED Med format
Post by: jjj on December 30, 2008, 05:37:46 pm
Quote from: Jonathan Wienke
And of course, it is unthinkable and impossible to leave the video as-shot and simply mount the display monitor vertically...

Sometimes the simplest solutions are the best.
And sometimes reading all the posts above your reply is best, as this suggestion has already been mentioned!  
Title: Rhe RED Med format
Post by: ziocan on December 30, 2008, 07:08:31 pm
Quote from: jjj
And sometimes reading all the posts above your reply is best, as this suggestion has already been mentioned!  
It seems like a bulky rig for using as photo camera.
I know some people needs to shows hardware before taking the images... but that may be overkill also for those kind of photographers.


Title: Rhe RED Med format
Post by: dwdmguy on January 01, 2009, 11:19:31 am
Quote from: BernardLanguillier
The interesting stuff is one to two years away...

Why on earth would you want to give your competition this kind of advanced warning???

This is as close to a suicide as it gets. How arrogant do you have to be to think that Japanese companies won't be able to totally overshoot you if you give them a clear target...

Cheers,
Bernard


There is one clear reason that most corporations do this, Number 1, to mislead the compitition, if they (RED) think the market is going one way, they will "Leak" something different to have the other guys directed into the wrong direction. Happens all the time.
Number 2, they are building something bigger and better and this will use the resources for the other guy to build something not as good and / or smaller.

It's called "Show Business" not "Show Friends"
Title: Rhe RED Med format
Post by: Graeme Nattress on January 01, 2009, 11:57:26 am
It's all about open development and user (and potential user) feedback. Just look at how many years Michael has been asking Canon to do mirror lockup right on their DSLRs. That's exactly the situation that RED would like to avoid.
Title: Rhe RED Med format
Post by: jjj on January 02, 2009, 02:03:53 pm
If you ask the people who actually use products what would make their life easier, you tend to get a lot of very useful information. And some gibberish too!
Title: Rhe RED Med format
Post by: jjj on January 02, 2009, 02:09:19 pm
Quote from: dwdmguy
There is one clear reason that most corporations do this, Number 1, to mislead the compitition, if they (RED) think the market is going one way, they will "Leak" something different to have the other guys directed into the wrong direction. Happens all the time.
Number 2, they are building something bigger and better and this will use the resources for the other guy to build something not as good and / or smaller.

It's called "Show Business" not "Show Friends"
You seem to be assuming RED is another typical company, which has no interest in anything but pleasing the shareholders. Shareholders are the noose that strangles many a business.
RED is thankfully a breath of fresh air in the mausoleum of progress, that the likes of Sony and Canon to dictate what happens when and where they trickle out kit in an artificially crippled manner.
Title: Rhe RED Med format
Post by: Graeme Nattress on January 02, 2009, 02:10:16 pm
Yes, it's hard to filter what's good and bad, but if you don't listen to the feedback, you don't even get the opportunity to filter it. We also discuss design decisions too, so people know that if a particular feature is not there, that so and so is the very good reason for it not to be there! It's a task that does divert from the development efforts, but it also engenders a sense of community in those that contribute, and it also tries to ensure that the resulting camera works well for a wider audience.

Graeme
Title: Rhe RED Med format
Post by: dwdmguy on January 02, 2009, 03:10:37 pm
Quote from: jjj
You seem to be assuming RED is another typical company, which has no interest in anything but pleasing the shareholders. Shareholders are the noose that strangles many a business.
RED is thankfully a breath of fresh air in the mausoleum of progress, that the likes of Sony and Canon to dictate what happens when and where they trickle out kit in an artificially crippled manner.

Fair enough indeed.
Title: Rhe RED Med format
Post by: jjj on January 02, 2009, 03:27:43 pm
Quote from: Graeme Nattress
Yes, it's hard to filter what's good and bad, but if you don't listen to the feedback, you don't even get the opportunity to filter it. We also discuss design decisions too, so people know that if a particular feature is not there, that so and so is the very good reason for it not to be there! It's a task that does divert from the development efforts, but it also engenders a sense of community in those that contribute, and it also tries to ensure that the resulting camera works well for a wider audience.
Too often stuff is designed by someone who has no idea of how to use the product in the real world or just as bad, marketing decide what should be included/excluded. What marketing departments repeatedly fail to realise that the products that ultimately sell the best are the ones that are good/most functional. As if a product is good it will get a lot of positive word of mouth, which is way more important that a catchy strapline on a poster.
Rarely do you here anything but praise for RED products.

My pet design peeve is stuff that is designed to look good and functionality comes a poor second, Apple are particularly guilty of this and have obviously never heard of 'form follows function'. In particular their awful RSI inducing mice that appear to be designed for children and monitors with no height adjustment - one size does not fit all [but is more profitable].

Title: Rhe RED Med format
Post by: eronald on January 02, 2009, 05:23:44 pm
Quote from: jjj
My pet design peeve is stuff that is designed to look good and functionality comes a poor second, Apple are particularly guilty of this and have obviously never heard of 'form follows function'. In particular their awful RSI inducing mice that appear to be designed for children and monitors with no height adjustment - one size does not fit all [but is more profitable].

I just spent my afternoon in a design meeting for a Hi-Fi amplifier. As the high-qual engineer I spent my time explaining to my techie friend (who has to build the thing) that the only important thing about the thing is the design. The design, the way it looks to the buyer and his friends, the way it feels when touched, will sell the thing, and design is hard to get right. The guts of the thing need to work, sure, but that's just electronics.

Apple have taken this concept a stage further, they are designing computers with a strong "Female Acceptance Quotient". Computers as buyable and as usable as design chairs.

Edmund
Title: Rhe RED Med format
Post by: jjj on January 03, 2009, 01:39:07 pm
Quote from: eronald
I just spent my afternoon in a design meeting for a Hi-Fi amplifier. As the high-qual engineer I spent my time explaining to my techie friend (who has to build the thing) that the only important thing about the thing is the design. The design, the way it looks to the buyer and his friends, the way it feels when touched, will sell the thing, and design is hard to get right. The guts of the thing need to work, sure, but that's just electronics.
Just electronics!? That's the bit that's hard to get right, nice packaging is much easier.
But then as most people think mp3s are OK, why even bother catering to those who like good quality sound from their hifi?
I do not think one should ignore looks, but so many things look nice and are useless to use as a result. Imagine if the designer came back to you and said we decided to drop some of the controls like volume and balance as they spoiled the clean look of the amp.
Besides if you are a fashion photographer and colour mangement chap, why are you a hifi engineer all of a sudden?


Quote
Apple have taken this concept a stage further, they are designing computers with a strong "Female Acceptance Quotient". Computers as buyable and as usable as design chairs.
Do you mean 'designer' [what a stupid term] chairs? That look good, but are awful to sit in? Design chairs to me would be more like the very ergonomic and comfortable chairs like those made by Hag or Aeron, where usability is the priority.
Title: Rhe RED Med format
Post by: eronald on January 03, 2009, 05:05:06 pm
Quote from: jjj
Just electronics!? That's the bit that's hard to get right, nice packaging is much easier.
But then as most people think mp3s are OK, why even bother catering to those who like good quality sound from their hifi?
I do not think one should ignore looks, but so many things look nice and are useless to use as a result. Imagine if the designer came back to you and said we decided to drop some of the controls like volume and balance as they spoiled the clean look of the amp.
Besides if you are a fashion photographer and colour mangement chap, why are you a hifi engineer all of a sudden?


Do you mean 'designer' [what a stupid term] chairs? That look good, but are awful to sit in? Design chairs to me would be more like the very ergonomic and comfortable chairs like those made by Hag or Aeron, where usability is the priority.

As you point out, most people think MP3 is ok, so the success of the iPod proves that an audio product that sells can have rotten sound, it just needs to look good and be convenient.

As for the chairs, those horribly uncomfortable look-good non-sit chairs, have you noticed they never stop selling? Like women's non-walk shoes . These days half the shops in Paris seem to sell women's shoes.

Edmund